Galatians 2:20: the faith of..? [Archive] - Theology Forum

Chileice

March 13th, 2005, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

Galatians 2:20

KJV...................I live by the faith of the son of God

Today's English Bible.......I live by faith in the son of God

Phillips Modern English............I live believing in the son of God

RSV...................I live by faith in the son jof God

New English Bible............By faith in the son of God

Jerusalem bible..................I live by faith, faith in the son of God

Can they all be wrong? Sometimes the KJV loses the true meaning. I at one time used ONLY the KJV. But now I use as many as I can, and I have a lot. The NIV is not as bad as some think. I am thinking of buying the NASB in the near future.

Very good post. Even the original authors of the King James never expected their version to still be in use 400 years later. They would be aghast if you read the original preface. They knew that language evolves and that translations have to keep up with both the evolving language and the latest discoveries in critical manuscripts.

keypurr

March 13th, 2005, 07:16 PM

From the scholars who prepared the King James version

“King James Version 1611”

When scholars who prepared the King James version had completed their task they added these very words in the preface, now alas, no longer included in modern editions: "We do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in english set forth by men of our profession . . . containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God: As the King's speech, which he uttered in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the King's speach, though it be not interperted by every translator with the grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense, everywhere . . .no cause therefore why the word translated should be denied to be the word, or forbidden to be current, notwithstanding that some imperfections and blemishes may be noted in the setting fourth of it."

As happens so often, God's richest treasures be found in earthen vessels. The vessels may be marred by human frailties, but the treasure is divinely perfect.

------------------------------------------------------

If the translators of the King James Version say there MAY be errors, why do some people say it has no errors. Until men are perfect we cannot assume the translation is 100% errorless.

Lighthouse

March 14th, 2005, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

are you KJV only? that seems to be the only one i can find that translates it that way.
No, actually I'm not. But you are right. However, if I could understand the literal translation, I would see what it says. I really wish I knew enough Greek to get into it. I was just curious about what everyone thought. But it seems most people just want to come in with, "Well this version says..." instead of focusing on the idea that the faith we have is not our own.

I want to know if you think it is our own, or if you think it's not. And why. Not just because a specific version says something.

Lighthouse

March 14th, 2005, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by keypurr

From the scholars who prepared the King James version

“King James Version 1611”

When scholars who prepared the King James version had completed their task they added these very words in the preface, now alas, no longer included in modern editions: "We do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in english set forth by men of our profession . . . containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God: As the King's speech, which he uttered in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the King's speach, though it be not interperted by every translator with the grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense, everywhere . . .no cause therefore why the word translated should be denied to be the word, or forbidden to be current, notwithstanding that some imperfections and blemishes may be noted in the setting fourth of it."

As happens so often, God's richest treasures be found in earthen vessels. The vessels may be marred by human frailties, but the treasure is divinely perfect.

------------------------------------------------------

If the translators of the King James Version say there MAY be errors, why do some people say it has no errors. Until men are perfect we cannot assume the translation is 100% errorless.

If I thought the KJV was errorless I wouldn't support the death penalty... "Thou shalt not kill.":rolleyes:

God_Is_Truth

March 14th, 2005, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

No, actually I'm not. But you are right. However, if I could understand the literal translation, I would see what it says. I really wish I knew enough Greek to get into it. I was just curious about what everyone thought. But it seems most people just want to come in with, "Well this version says..." instead of focusing on the idea that the faith we have is not our own.

I want to know if you think it is our own, or if you think it's not. And why. Not just because a specific version says something.

i don't think faith is a "thing" at all. thus, i don't think it's something we are given nor is it something we have to conjure up ourselves.

God_Is_Truth

March 14th, 2005, 02:52 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

If I thought the KJV was errorless I wouldn't support the death penalty... "Thou shalt not kill.":rolleyes:

i'm pretty sure that the actual word in hebrew is "kill".

swanca99

March 14th, 2005, 03:45 AM

Hi Lighthouse.

My Greek's kinda rusty, but I have the next 2 nights off and I'll take a look at it and see if I can add anything to what's already been posted.

Sold Out

March 14th, 2005, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

Here's the NASB, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Whose faith do we live by? Our own? Christ's? This verse blatantly says we live by His faith, not our own. What does this mean. What are the implications? What do you get from this?

Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

It is impossible to please God without faith. It takes faith to be saved (by believing the Gospel), and it takes faith to live saved. Faith is nothing more than taking God's Word over your own. God already did His part - he saved us for all eternity. Now the ball is in our court to live by faith.

Romans 1:17 says, "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Here's the NASB version of Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Because it took faith to believe the Gospel, we are to continue to live by that faith by learning to take God's Word over our own.

Lighthouse

March 14th, 2005, 11:35 AM

SO-
That's all good and everything, but whose faith do we live by.

Sold Out

March 14th, 2005, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

SO-
That's all good and everything, but whose faith do we live by.

Ours

keypurr

March 14th, 2005, 02:05 PM

Lighthouse, my friend, I believe that the knowledge we receive comes from God. He gives use the measure of understanding to build or faith in him, and who he sent. Consider Paul, he had no faith till knowledge of Christ was given to him.

Lighthouse

March 14th, 2005, 02:13 PM

Okay, going along with Galatians 2:20, who is living? The answer to that question is also the answer to the other...:think:

keypurr

March 14th, 2005, 03:03 PM

See Lighthouse I am not ALL bad.

Sold Out

March 14th, 2005, 04:31 PM

Well, you have to realize that Christ didn't need or require faith - He was and always will be God - so to say that we should live by Jesus' faith does not make sense.

Faith is an act of the will. When I heard the gospel message, I responded by faith ( I took God's Word over my own) and accepted the gift of salvation.

I think what you might be getting at is whether or not we are supernaturally infused with faith (obtain it from God) or do we exercise it on our own. I believe it is the latter. God already did all the work by dying for our sins, it is up to us to be obedient and live by faith after we are saved. That is what's called 'finishing your race'.

HopeofGlory

March 14th, 2005, 06:10 PM

1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

We run because of Christ but we must bring ourselves under subjection to Him, there is only One winner.

Craig

Lighthouse

March 15th, 2005, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by keypurr

See Lighthouse I am not ALL bad.
You still haven't answered the question.

Lighthouse

March 15th, 2005, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Well, you have to realize that Christ didn't need or require faith - He was and always will be God - so to say that we should live by Jesus' faith does not make sense.

Faith is an act of the will. When I heard the gospel message, I responded by faith ( I took God's Word over my own) and accepted the gift of salvation.

I think what you might be getting at is whether or not we are supernaturally infused with faith (obtain it from God) or do we exercise it on our own. I believe it is the latter. God already did all the work by dying for our sins, it is up to us to be obedient and live by faith after we are saved. That is what's called 'finishing your race'.
I didn't mean that Christ needed faith, but if you understand that faith includes trust, He did trust His Father...

It's up to us to be obedient? No, it's up to us to let Him live through us, as Gal. 2:20 says.

Lighthouse

March 15th, 2005, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by HopeofGlory

...there is only One winner.

Craig
And He has already won.

swanca99

March 15th, 2005, 03:14 AM

Lighthouse,

Here's what I've been able to get in looking at Greek stuff.

I don't know how to put all the pronunciation marks online, so the transliteration is going to look a little wierd, but here goes...

The part of the verse (Gal. 2:20) that your qeustion focuses on is:

en pistei zo te tou uios tou Theou

Sozo already provided the literal translation of it in post 9:

"in faith I live, that of the Son of God"

The phrase, "the son of God" (tou uios tou Theou) is in the genitive case, which justifies the translation used in the KJV ("of the son of God"). However, the genitive case can be used in several ways.

"tou Theou" is also genitive in the phrase "tou uios tou Theou" (the son of God). This would be the genitive of possession. Your question hinges on whether or not "tou uios" (the son) is also a genitive of possession, which would mean that we live by HIS faith.

There is another use of the genitive case called the "objective genitive." This is when the genitive case defines a noun of action (in our case, that would be "faith"), and the noun in the genitive ("the son") receives the action, as the object of the verbal idea of the noun modified (faith). So if we see "the son of God" used as an objective genitive, we would understand Christ to be the OBJECT of our faith. This is apparently the way it is understood by the other translations, i.e., as an objective genitive.

There are other examples of the objective genitive in Scripture. Here are two of the more famous (or shall we say, infamous?) ones:

"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God (zelos Theou), but not according to knowledge." - Romans 10:2

"But the blasphemy of the Spirit (tou pneumatos blasphemia) shall not be forgiven unto men." - Matthew 12:31

I hope this has been more helpful than confusing, and that it will help you in your interpretation of Galatians 2:20.

Yours because His,
Swanca

Lighthouse

March 15th, 2005, 04:55 AM

Thank you, swanca. Can you expound on why it says, "...the faith of..?" If it had not had "the" at the beginning, then it would seem to fit more with the later translations. What do you think about this?

swanca99

March 15th, 2005, 06:49 AM

Actually, there is no definite article (i.e., "the") in the Greek text. Faith (pistei) is preceeded by "in" or "by" ("en" can be translated either way). I'm not sure why the KJV translators would have provided the word "the." I noticed that the 1979 revisers (i.e., the New KJV) removed it.

Chileice

March 15th, 2005, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Well, you have to realize that Christ didn't need or require faith - He was and always will be God - so to say that we should live by Jesus' faith does not make sense.

Actually, it makes more sense than you think because the word faith "pistis" in Greek also carries the idea of costancy and fidelity as senn for example in the following verses:

I Timothy 2:
8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him,
we will also live with him; 12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him. If we disown him,
he will also disown us; 13 if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

If not for Jesus's contancy and fidelity there would be no assured salvation. Yet without our faith in the sence of accepting his constant fidelity, there likewise would be no salvation. Perhaps the answer is: "both/and". Our faith is a gift from God. The very act of being able to trust is a gift. Whether we take and place that faith in Christ or in another depends on us. But the quality of the faith does not depend on us.

Many people constantly question their salvation becase they doubt if they have enough faith or if it is the right kind of faith. But my faith, no matter how meagre, is not faith in my faith but rather faith in the ONE who is always faithful, the one who cannot deny himself. Perrhaps I Thess. 5.24 sums it up in a nutshell:

"Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass."

Lighthouse

March 15th, 2005, 11:05 AM

I know we've disagreed in the past, Chileice, but I completely agree with that post.

Sozo

March 15th, 2005, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

I know we've disagreed in the past, Chileice, but I completely agree with that post.

Faith can ONLY be in God. Faith does not exist apart from God.

keypurr

March 15th, 2005, 01:58 PM

2 Timothy 2:11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him. If we disown him,
he will also disown us; 13 if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

Does this question the OSAS theory? Sorry if this draws people off thread, just thoughts of mine.

logos_x

March 15th, 2005, 02:07 PM

pistei (faith) relies on what or who it is placed in.

It is one thing to have faith that the ground is going to be there in front of you when you take a step...another to have faith that water will hold you up if you walk on it...

In the Bible (NT) pistie is appropriated by Jesus almost exclusively. In other words...salvation resides "in Christ", and so placing your faith in Him is the only way to salvation, and maintain it.

Pistaeo, pistie...is faith in Christ.

Lighthouse

March 15th, 2005, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

Faith can ONLY be in God. Faith does not exist apart from God.
Depends on what kind of faith you're talking about.

I have faith in my dad for certain things, and faith in my firneds. And then I have faith in Christ, which is different.

Sold Out

March 15th, 2005, 02:41 PM

Right Lighthouse....we have faith in people, like when we get married we have faith that our spouse will live up to their vows.

The reasoning of faith is not different, it's what you have faith in. I have to exercise faith sometimes when I feel like knocking my husband over the head! I have to remember that I made vows before God and by faith I will honor my vows and hope he does the same.

For example, you might feel tempted to lie about something. You reason in your mind that lying might be the logical solution to something, but you know God's Word says it's wrong to lie. You decide not to lie, and take God's Word over your own. You have just exercised faith. That is the epitome of the Christian's every day life - we make decisions that either honor or dishonor God.

It takes faith to read my bible everyday (because I don't always feel like it), it takes faith for me to go to church every Sunday (because I don't always feel like it), and it takes faith for me to pray to my Heavenly Father (because I don't always feel like it).

Notice I used the word 'feel' a lot in my previous paragraph. Faith is not feelings. Our feelings change, but God never changes, which is why we are to abide in His Word and exercise biblical faith. It's an act of the will.

Lighthouse

March 15th, 2005, 02:45 PM

My will is not my own. Not anymore.

Sold Out

March 15th, 2005, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

My will is not my own. Not anymore. '

Ok, so if your will is not your own, then who do you blame when you miss church, don't read your bible, don't pray, tell lies, covet, lust, etc?

Sozo

March 15th, 2005, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

Depends on what kind of faith you're talking about.

I have faith in my dad for certain things, and faith in my firneds. And then I have faith in Christ, which is different.

I'm going to have to disagree.

Faith can only be in God. It is a misuse of the term to apply faith to anything or anyone other than God. God is the only one who is qualified for us to have faith in. Faith, hope, and love are only possible in the context of the glory of God. There are terms that we as humans use to define faith, hope, and love, but they are weak and imperfect.

GIT is partially correct, and yet partially wrong when he says that faith is not a thing, and therefore not a gift. I agree that it is not a thing, but the fact that we are able to have faith in God through the revelation of the gospel is a great gift indeed. Faith comes by hearing the message of Christ, and it is the assurance of that in which we hope, the evidence in us of that which we do not see.

The Law proves us hopeless, and in need of salvation. God reveals His love for us in Christ and His righteousness which is what we need in order to be saved from condemnation. We beliveve the message of Christ crucified, which produces faith in our hearts, and we receive God's grace as a gift in the life of His Son, that is exchanged for ours, and we are saved. That is what gives us our hope.

Sold Out

March 15th, 2005, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

I'm going to have to disagree.

Faith can only be in God. It is a misuse of the term to apply faith to anything or anyone other than God. God is the only one who is qualified for us to have faith in. Faith, hope, and love are only possible in the context of the glory of God. There are terms that we as humans use to define faith, hope, and love, but they are weak and imperfect.

Then what do you call it when you exchange marriage vows with someone not knowing what the future holds?

Sozo

March 15th, 2005, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Then what do you call it when you exchange marriage vows with someone not knowing what the future holds?

I don't call it anything.

I don't love my wife because I made a vow.

Emo

March 15th, 2005, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

Faith comes by hearing the message of Christ, and it is the assurance of that in which we hope, the evidence in us of that which we do not see.

We beliveve the message of Christ crucified, which produces faith in our hearts, and we receive God's grace as a gift in the life of His Son, that is exchanged for ours, and we are saved. That is what gives us our hope.

:up:

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 12:2-3
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

keypurr

March 15th, 2005, 06:32 PM

I disagree with sozo somewhat. People have faith in different things. Including different God's. When you get on a plane you have faith that it will land safely. Same when you get on an elevator.

But when you talk faith in Christ, it is the knowledge of God that is given to you that make your faith stronger.

Sozo

March 15th, 2005, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

I disagree with sozo somewhat. People have faith in different things. Including different God's. When you get on a plane you have faith that it will land safely. Same when you get on an elevator.

But when you talk faith in Christ, it is the knowledge of God that is given to you that make your faith stronger.

You are wrong. This is why I get so irritated with so many people at this site. When I provide absolute clear evidence from what the bible says, you still reject the truth for your own ignorance.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FAITH APART FROM GOD.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LOVE APART FROM GOD.

Where in the hell do you think you can find faith and love if God had not created you or created ALL things!

Idiots! :bang:

If you have faith in planes, then you are a fool.

God_Is_Truth

March 15th, 2005, 10:24 PM

Sozo, what is faith?

keypurr

March 15th, 2005, 10:30 PM

Sozo. you have a problem with accepting other people's ideas.
You enjoy playing with words. I am not trying to prove that I am right, only what I think is right. You have not convinced me to change.

Sozo

March 15th, 2005, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

Sozo. you have a problem with accepting other people's ideas.
Thank you! You enjoy playing with words. That is BS! I enjoy telling you the truth, even though you have no inclination to accept it.I am not trying to prove that I am right, only what I think is right. Unfortunately, that is just not good enough.You have not convinced me to change. That is simply because you are hard of heart, and stiffed necked.

Sozo

March 15th, 2005, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Sozo, what is faith?

Faith is absolute, complete, and unequivocal

surrender to God.

keypurr

March 15th, 2005, 11:21 PM

sozo, if I am hard of heart, and stiffed necked, use the power you say you have to loosen me up. Surly a person of your knowledge can do that. I admit my educational level is not that great so it should be easy for you.

Sozo

March 15th, 2005, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

sozo, if I am hard of heart, and stiffed necked, use the power you say you have to loosen me up. Surly a person of your knowledge can do that. I admit my educational level is not that great so it should be easy for you. If the bible doesn't get through to you, how do you expect me to?

God_Is_Truth

March 15th, 2005, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

Faith is absolute, complete, and unequivocal

surrender to God.

why do you define it that way?

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

why do you define it that way? To make it simple for those who have already rejected the definition that I gave earlier which comes straight from the bible.

It was just another way of saying...

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Unless one surrenders wholly to God, they have no faith. It must be a complete and utter denial of self.

God_Is_Truth

March 16th, 2005, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

To make it simple for those who have already rejected the definition that I gave earlier which comes straight from the bible.

It was just another way of saying...

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Unless one surrenders wholly to God, they have no faith. It must be a complete and utter denial of self.

while i agree with you that faith is a complete and utter denial of self, i don't understand how you got "complete, absolute and unequivocal surrender to God" from "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

can you elaborate?

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

while i agree with you that faith is a complete and utter denial of self, i don't understand how you got "complete, absolute and unequivocal surrender to God" from "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

can you elaborate?

Sure!

The "things" hoped for, speak of those "things" that encompass the glory of God, all that God is and all those things that He has prepared for those who love Him.

" For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it."

What is beyond death is unknown. We may have vague ideas, but they are foggy at best. Yet, death provides a no return commitment. To be willing to make a leap into death, because you have complete confidence that it is the culmination of all that is good, is evidence of faith.

Complete, absolute and unequivocal surrender to God is the evidence of faith. You are willing to die to all that you know, and put all your hope in Him whom you believe works all things together for good, even though you cannot see it.

Lighthouse

March 16th, 2005, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by Sold Out

'

Ok, so if your will is not your own, then who do you blame when you miss church, don't read your bible, don't pray, tell lies, covet, lust, etc?
I haven't been to church in quite a while. Guess what. There's nothing wrong with that. And it's okay to go a day without reading my Bible, too. I pray constantly throughout the day, because God prompts me to. And I don't lie. In fact, I've been told I'm too honest. And I agree. Sometimes I say thiongs when I should just keep my mouth shut.

Anyway, when I say my will is not my own, I mean it. My will has been replaced by God's will for my life. I am not the old man I used to be. I am not my own.

Lighthouse

March 16th, 2005, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

There are terms that we as humans use to define faith, hope, and love, but they are weak and imperfect.
That's what I meant. That's why I said faith in Christ was different.

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

I haven't been to church in quite a while. Guess what. There's nothing wrong with that.

Why haven't you been to church in a while? We are commanded to fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ in Hebrews 10:25, "not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

You are to light your candle from a local church. In Matt 5:14-16, Jesus said, " “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. According to Rev 1:12,13, the lampstand is the local church.

I have to admit I'm shocked that you don't go, or haven't been in a while. You don't seem like the type that wouldn't go regularly.

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 10:13 AM

Jesus never told people to go to "church"; He told the church to go to people.

Your views are incredibly legalistic and misguided.

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

Jesus never told people to go to "church"; He told the church to go to people.

Your views are incredibly legalistic and misguided.

Do you believe Jesus is our example in everything?

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Do you believe Jesus is our example in everything?

What is that supposed to mean?

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

What is that supposed to mean?

Just answer the question.

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Just answer the question. No

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 02:31 PM

Well He is (see I Cor 11:1).

The point I am trying to make is found in Luke 4:16, "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.

Jesus attended the synagogue 'as was his custom'. Jesus didn't need to go to church, but to set an example for us, He did.

I don't know why some of you get so hot under the collar and start screaming 'legalism'. You act like having to do something because the bible says so is infringing on your right as a person.

Christians are supposed to belong to a church to serve each other, help the widows, orphans and less fortunate, be instructed in the word, and to bring others to Christ. Almost all of Paul's letters were written to CHURCHES. I & II Timothy were written to Timothy in regards to pastors and deacons of CHURCHES. We are to place ourselves under the godly leadership of a pastor who preaches the Word. The Christian life is not all about YOU, it's about OTHERS. That is why I said what I said to Lighthouse.

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 02:39 PM

I meant, "NO" I will not answer your question.

The question was ridiculous. Let me know when you walk on the sea, I'd love to come watch! :rolleyes:

Jesus was born under the Law, and it was the Law that He fulfilled. Good luck following his "example"!

YOU are in fact a legalist disguising yourself as a Christian.

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Sozo
YOU are in fact a legalist disguising yourself as a Christian.

So to YOU go to church?

Did you even READ I Cor 11:1? Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

Believers should attend a local church. You failed to address the points I made regarding Paul writing his letters to the churches.

You have no right to label me, because I am far from a legalist. I do believe that Christians should take the saving Gospel to the world, but then where are you going to take your new converts?

julie21

March 16th, 2005, 04:07 PM

Sold Out:I don't know why some of you get so hot under the collar and start screaming 'legalism'. You act like having to do something because the bible says so is infringing on your right as a person.
Soory Sold Out...but the bible does not tell me I HAVE to go to Church. It is people with that attitude who cause people like my husband when he was younger to actually run the other way from the Church! He was taught he HAD to go and so did not do it out of his love and wanting to...merely fulfilling a stupid command from those who thought that it was what a Christian HAD to do to be righteous etc..Thankfully, he now goes of his own accord because he wants to, but if we miss out for some reason, then that's just fine!
Jesus went to the synagogue because it was HIS custom to do so, as stated, but He has not said that it HAS to be ur custom as well. Yes, it is good t fellowship with other believers, but it does not have to occur within a 'church' environment.
There never was a 'commandment' stating 'thou shalt attend church each Sunday'.

julie21

March 16th, 2005, 04:12 PM

Sold Out:I do believe that Christians should take the saving Gospel to the world, but then where are you going to take your new converts?
How about to a shady tree...or sit in a coffee shop...or at a well/drinking fountain???
WHY ARE YOU LIMITING GOD'S POWERFUL WORK TO THE CONFINES OF ONE BUILDING? HE IS EVERYWHERE...HIS CHURCH IS WHEREVER HIS PEOPLE ARE...IS IT NOT???

Crow

March 16th, 2005, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by julie21

Soory Sold Out...but the bible does not tell me I HAVE to go to Church. It is people with that attitude who cause people like my husband when he was younger to actually run the other way from the Church! He was taught he HAD to go and so did not do it out of his love and wanting to...merely fulfilling a stupid command from those who thought that it was what a Christian HAD to do to be righteous etc..Thankfully, he now goes of his own accord because he wants to, but if we miss out for some reason, then that's just fine!
Jesus went to the synagogue because it was HIS custom to do so, as stated, but He has not said that it HAS to be ur custom as well. Yes, it is good t fellowship with other believers, but it does not have to occur within a 'church' environment.
There never was a 'commandment' stating 'thou shalt attend church each Sunday'.

:thumb:

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 04:35 PM

I can't even believe what I'm reading. It seems that most of the people on this forum are stuck in a spiritual rut spilling out spiritual advice, while all the time ignoring God's commands for Christians. We are not saved by keeping the law, but God's word does say we are to fellowship with other believers and light our candle from the local church. I gave the scriptures above. A Christian cannot grow properly unless he/she is instructed in the Word of God.

I am going to start another thread on this....what is expected of us as Christians?

Servo

March 16th, 2005, 04:43 PM

Concerning widows:

Originally posted by Sold Out

Christians are supposed to belong to a church to serve each other, help the widows, orphans and less fortunate,

1 Timothy 5:
3Honor widows who are really widows. 4But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show piety at home and to repay their parents; for this is good and[a] acceptable before God. 5Now she who is really a widow, and left alone, trusts in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. 6But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. 7And these things command, that they may be blameless. 8But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
9Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 10well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.

11But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, 12having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. 13And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. 14Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15For some have already turned aside after Satan. 16If any believing man or[b] woman has widows, let them relieve them, and do not let the church be burdened, that it may relieve those who are really widows.

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

So to YOU go to church?

Which church?

I would certainly not advocate that anyone attend yours, that's for sure!You have no right to label me, because I am far from a legalist. You sure fooled us!I do believe that Christians should take the saving Gospel to the world, but then where are you going to take your new converts? In this day and age, probably not to a "church". Even though I do attend one from time to time, I prefer to meet with people in their homes, where we can deal with specific needs and concerns.

I find very little, if any, fellowshipping in a "church".

As far as following Paul in the same way that he follows Christ, it has nothing to do with doing everything that Jesus did, for not even Paul did that. He is speaking of following Him in concern for others above himself.

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Shimei

Concerning widows:

1 Timothy 5:
3Honor widows who are really widows. 4But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show piety at home and to repay their parents; for this is good and[a] acceptable before God. 5Now she who is really a widow, and left alone, trusts in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. 6But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. 7And these things command, that they may be blameless. 8But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
9Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 10well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.

11But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, 12having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. 13And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. 14Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15For some have already turned aside after Satan. 16If any believing man or[b] woman has widows, let them relieve them, and do not let the church be burdened, that it may relieve those who are really widows.

What is your point? It says in the last scripture that the church should care for the widows who need assistance and don't have family.

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 04:56 PM

Sozo - I think that your name-calling and obvious slams to my character and the character of my church are uncalled for. You don't know me, my church or anything we do or don't do while we are there. I think you need to tone it down a bit and act a little more mature.

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Sozo - I think that your name-calling and obvious slams to my character and the character of my church are uncalled for. What is wrong with accurately describing what you teach? And why would we want anyone to attend a church who believes what you do?

julie21

March 16th, 2005, 05:00 PM

Sold Out: what is expected of us as Christians?
To go out and witness to the people and meet the people wherever they are at...just as Jesus did. He did not limit His time of teaching to just being in the confines of the synagogue. He went out to the people in the fields, by the shores of Galilee and in their homes.
Just as He is with us wherever we are now, He was with them wherever they were. His love plced Him where it could best be given out and shared, with those who might not have ever been into the synagogue...the un-churched sinners of the street and also those who were pious synagogue pew sitters who believed because they were in the synagogue that they were holier than those who didn't attend!

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 05:09 PM

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

What is wrong with accurately describing what you teach? And why would we want anyone to attend a church who believes what you do?

How do you even KNOW what my church teaches? Do you think you can take my posts on this Forum and formulate the doctrines of the church I attend?

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

How do you even KNOW what my church teaches? Do you think you can take my posts on this Forum and formulate the doctrines of the church I attend? Yes, I can!

For instance, unless you oppose your church, they believe that...

1. Christians should follow the example of Jesus and attend church.

2. We owe something to God

3. Worship is something we do at church.

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by julie21

To go out and witness to the people and meet the people wherever they are at...just as Jesus did. He did not limit His time of teaching to just being in the confines of the synagogue. He went out to the people in the fields, by the shores of Galilee and in their homes.
Just as He is with us wherever we are now, He was with them wherever they were. His love plced Him where it could best be given out and shared, with those who might not have ever been into the synagogue...the un-churched sinners of the street and also those who were pious synagogue pew sitters who believed because they were in the synagogue that they were holier than those who didn't attend!

Julie - I agree with you. I am so totally in agreement with you on this. I believe you have a misconception on what my point is here.

My church teaches that we should be light to the world - not from our pews. You can't reach someone sitting your church pew, unless you brought them there. Our mission as a church is to reach the lost for whom Christ died, wherever that may be. I have a bible study in my home every week and have seen 75+ people come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ in 3 1/2 yrs. I've led a magazine salesman to the Lord on my front porch. Our motto is : "It's not where XXXX Church is, it's where is XXXX Church not!" I am not confining my Christianity to a church building, but rather rooting myself in sound doctrine and honoring God by attending at least once a week. I've made church important to my children, and as a result I have very grounded Christian kids who obey their parents and the Lord. There are more benefits to attending church than to not attend.

But most importantly, what does God have to say about it? Hebrews 10:25 says, "not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Sold Out

March 16th, 2005, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

Yes, I can!

For instance, unless you oppose your church, they believe that...

1. Christians should follow the example of Jesus and attend church.

2. We owe something to God

3. Worship is something we do at church.

I NEVER said worship is to be done ONLY at church. You made that assumption on your own.

We do owe God - we owe him our lives once we are saved. We should honor God with our lives. He paid for our souls and the least we can do is gather with His people and worship Him in His house. I don't see why everyone has such a problem with this?

Emo

March 16th, 2005, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by julie21

How about to a shady tree...or sit in a coffee shop...or at a well/drinking fountain???
WHY ARE YOU LIMITING GOD'S POWERFUL WORK TO THE CONFINES OF ONE BUILDING? HE IS EVERYWHERE...HIS CHURCH IS WHEREVER HIS PEOPLE ARE...IS IT NOT???

:BRAVO:

Matthew 18:20 - Christ had this to say..........

For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.

As Christians we have the joyous freedom to share the Word with anyone, whenever, wherever the opportunity arises.

Fellowship is not limited by the doors of the church.

julie21

March 16th, 2005, 05:46 PM

Sold Out: ...and the least we can do is gather with His people and worship Him in His house.
I think the way that you keep referring to the above is where the problem lies. We don't ever have to go into a church to be in 'God's house'...to worship Him.
The least we can do to show Him how much His death in our place means to us, is to love Him as the One true God, love others as we would ourselves, ans in that share His Gospel with them so they can accept Him as we did, and to always worship Him...but anywhere of your choosing. ...as you do in your house, which if you are worshipping and following Him is ultimately'His house' anyway.
Love does not ever mean 'owe'...it means purely loving and worshipping out of pure love. :)

Servo

March 16th, 2005, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

What is your point? It says in the last scripture that the church should care for the widows who need assistance and don't have family.

My point is that there are many stipulations a widow must meet before she is helped by the church. The widow must only have been married to one man at a time, she must be over 60 and well reported for good works. If she has any kids or other family, they should take care of her. If the widow is young, she should re-marry.

So I really didn't understand your point that Christians should be out there helping widows. In some cases, we should, but they are very few.

Emo

March 16th, 2005, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

There are more benefits to attending church than to not attend.

Perhaps, but do you attend your church out of your love for God or do you feel obligated as a sure requirement.
On the tithe thread I remember you stating you felt guilty if you did not give your 10% all of the time.

You should define the line: LOVE OR LEGALISM?

keypurr

March 16th, 2005, 08:12 PM

Sold Out, going to church on Sunday is not the same as meeting on the Sabbath.

Sozo quote: Jesus never told people to go to "church"; He told the church to go to people.

I agree

Sozo

March 16th, 2005, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

I NEVER said worship is to be done ONLY at church. You made that assumption on your own.

How would you define worship?

Sold Out

March 17th, 2005, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

How would you define worship?

Glad you asked....

Although there are eight different Greek words that are translated “worship” in the N.T.: doxa (Lk 14:10), usebeo (Acts 17:23), therapuo (Acts 17:25), threeskia (Colo 2:18), neokoros (Acts 19:35), latruo (Acts 7:42 & 24:14 & Phil 3:3 & Heb 10:2), and sebomai (Mt 15:9 & Mk 7:7 & Acts 16:14 & 18:7,13 & 19:27 & Rom 1:25 & II Thess 2:4), only one of those eight words deals with true worship: proskuneo (Jn 4:23) - This word literally means “to kiss towards; to worship God reverently.” CHRIST not only received this kind of worship (See - Mt 2:2,8,11 & 8:2 & 9:18 & 14:33 & 15:25 & 18:26 & 20:20 & 28:9,17 & Jn 9:38 & Heb 1:6), he accepted it!

Worship is not a recommended elective for the believer, but a required must. Those who truly worship God must be willing to give Him the “worth-ship” that is due to Him. CHRIST reminded us that true worship is never measured by the “where” (vss. John 4:20,21) or the “how,” but by the “WHO!” The place of worship and the procedure in which we worship are always secondary and subordinate to the PERSON of worship. Interestingly enough, the first time worship is ever mentioned in the Bible there is no mention of a church, of music, or even of singing (See - Gen 22:5). Worship is the believer’s response to all that God is and says and does. It is the acknowledgment of God’s person, of His promises, and of His power (See - Psa 89:1-13). Worship is an act of reverence and obeisance on the part of the believer to humble himself and change in the presence of an unchanging God. According to both the O.T. (See - Exo 20:3-5) and the N.T. (See - Jn 4:24), there are two ingredients necessary for genuine worship to occur:
1) We must be willing to worship God in “spirit” (that is, we must recognize who God is and bow down to Him in reverence and obeisance. We must stop humanizing Him and start understanding the spiritual essence of his being - Lk 11:5-13 & 18:1-8)
2) We must be willing to worship God in “truth” (that is, we must be willing to serve His great interest). Worship is not we having our way, but Him having His. It is not we serving our interests, but we serving His. God’s great interest from Genesis (See - Gen 3:21) to Revelation (See - Rev 1:5) has always been the sacrifice of CHRIST for the sins of mankind. Following is a “short” list of those in the Bible who bowed down to God and served His great interest:

Adam and Eve - Gen 3:15,21
Abel - Gen 4:1-4 / Lk 11:49-51 & Acts 7:52 & Heb 11:4 & 12:24 & I Jn 3:12
Enoch - Gen 5:22-24 / Jude 14 & Heb 11:5,6
Noah - Gen 8:20,21 / II Pet 2:5
Abraham - Gen 22:1-8 / Jn 8:56-59 & Heb 11:17-19
Isaac - Gen 26:24,25 & Heb 11:20
Jacob - Gen 31:53,54 & 32:22-30 & 33:18-20
Job - Job 1:1-5 & 19:25
Moses - Exo 12 & 17:15 & Deut 18:15-18 / Acts 3:22,23 & 7:37 & Jn 7:40
Joshua - Josh 8:30
Gideon - Jud 6:24-26
Samson’s parents - Jud 13:16-20
Ruth - Ruth 1:16 & 2:12 / Mt 23:37 & Lk 13:34
Elkanah - I Sam 1:3
Eli - I Sam 2:27,28
Samuel - I Sam 7:15-17
Saul - I Sam 14:35
David - II Sam 24:22-25
Solomon - I Ki 3:4 & II Chro 7:1-3
Elijah - I Ki 18:17-38
Hezekiah - II Chro 29:28-30
Joshua the High Priest & Zerubbabel the governor - Ezra 3:2
Ezra - Ezra 8:35 & 9:4-5
Nehemiah - Neh 10:33,34
John the Baptist - Jn 1:29

Lighthouse

March 18th, 2005, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Why haven't you been to church in a while? We are commanded to fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ in Hebrews 10:25, "not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
When did I say I don't fellowship?:confused:

I just don't go to church. Mostly because I can't sleep at night. And I'm beginning to think I need to find another church that adheres to the same basic beleifs I do, but can still challenge me. And I'm also beginning to think that a home Bible study may be the only way to do that.

You are to light your candle from a local church. In Matt 5:14-16, Jesus said, " “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. According to Rev 1:12,13, the lampstand is the local church.
No. My candle was lit by Christ. And His word fuels it.

I have to admit I'm shocked that you don't go, or haven't been in a while. You don't seem like the type that wouldn't go regularly.
I used to not be. But I want something I'm not getting, and TOL is the only place I've found to get that right now. Since I've been here [less than 2 yrs] I've learned more about the Bible than I did in my 20+ years in church.

Lighthouse

March 18th, 2005, 08:03 PM

The church is God's house, and we are the church. Not some building made out of bricks and wood.:nono:

Sozo

March 18th, 2005, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

The church is God's house, and we are the church. Not some building made out of bricks and wood.:nono: What about straw? :chuckle:

Lighthouse

March 18th, 2005, 08:50 PM

The wolf already blew that one down.;)

HopeofGlory

March 19th, 2005, 04:51 PM

It appears that man has tried to rob God of His church, His baptism, and His body of believers.

Sozo

March 20th, 2005, 07:08 AM

God Is Truth... did you get a chance to see my response in post 56 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=696258#post69625856)?

keypurr

March 20th, 2005, 11:05 AM

Post 56 is a good post sozo.

God_Is_Truth

March 21st, 2005, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

God Is Truth... did you get a chance to see my response in post 56 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=696258#post69625856)?

yes i did.

i think for the most part i understand what you said, but one part confused me.

Complete, absolute and unequivocal surrender to God is the evidence of faith.

earlier you said that "complete, absolute and unequivocal surrender to God" was what faith itself is. but now you seem to be saying that it is the evidence of faith. however, this would make "Complete, absolute and unequivocal surrender to God" the evidence of "Complete, absolute and unequivocal surrender to God" which is meaningless.

so what is "Complete, absolute and unequivocal surrender to God", the evidence of faith or faith itself?

julie21

March 21st, 2005, 05:35 AM

God Is Truth: so what is "Complete, absolute and unequivocal surrender to God", the evidence of faith or faith itself?
Sozo will definitely let me know if I am wrong in this, but I believe that the statement as posted means the action of, or te outworking of your faith in God and nothing/ no-one else.
In surrendering to God in these 3 ways, you are showing/acting upon/willing to prove your faith in God,and God alone as the ultimate basis of your faith.
God is the ultimate vessel of our faith.

Sold Out

March 21st, 2005, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

When did I say I don't fellowship?:confused:

I just don't go to church. Mostly because I can't sleep at night.

I used to not be. But I want something I'm not getting, and TOL is the only place I've found to get that right now. Since I've been here [less than 2 yrs] I've learned more about the Bible than I did in my 20+ years in church.

Ok, you don't go to church because you can't sleep at night? Is that what you would tell your boss if you decided not to go to work? Why would your boss get more respect than God?

TOL is not the place to be getting your doctrine. Sitting around arguing various topics on an online forum with people you don't even know is not very wise. To be honest, I don't know you - you don't know me, so why would I (or you) take our word for anything? The bible says beware of false teachers who are wolves in sheeps clothing. Satan may very well be using this as a distraction to keep you from church.

Your approach to church seems to be a bit selfish....I hear a lot of 'me', and 'I', and not much about helping other people. We don't go to church for ourselves, we go to church for others, especially God. It's obedience!

So here's a benefit from attending church: Just yesterday my son brought a sister of a friend to church, who just got out of her 3rd drug rehab. She's totally messed up, but she promised her sister she would go to church with her when she got out. We get her to church, and a brother in Christ, who I know was delivered from drug addiction, took her in a side room, gave her the saving Gospel, she accepted it by faith and was saved. Now that is what church is all about - seeing people come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The only thing I'm interested in is populating heaven, and I KNOW I can't do that typing on my computer to people I don't even know in an online forum. To me, this is a hobby, not my spiritual well.

So you can say church is 'not for you' or 'I need something else for ME', but that attitude is not pleasing to God. There is no commandment in the bible that says serve yourself and your interests. Your job as a Christian is to serve HIS great interests by lighting your candle from a local church and reaching as many people as you can with the Gospel that saves.

Sozo

March 21st, 2005, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Ok, you don't go to church because you can't sleep at night? Is that what you would tell your boss if you decided not to go to work? Why would your boss get more respect than God?

TOL is not the place to be getting your doctrine. Sitting around arguing various topics on an online forum with people you don't even know is not very wise. To be honest, I don't know you - you don't know me, so why would I (or you) take our word for anything? The bible says beware of false teachers who are wolves in sheeps clothing. Satan may very well be using this as a distraction to keep you from church.

Your approach to church seems to be a bit selfish....I hear a lot of 'me', and 'I', and not much about helping other people. We don't go to church for ourselves, we go to church for others, especially God. It's obedience!

So here's a benefit from attending church: Just yesterday my son brought a sister of a friend to church, who just got out of her 3rd drug rehab. She's totally messed up, but she promised her sister she would go to church with her when she got out. We get her to church, and a brother in Christ, who I know was delivered from drug addiction, took her in a side room, gave her the saving Gospel, she accepted it by faith and was saved. Now that is what church is all about - seeing people come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The only thing I'm interested in is populating heaven, and I KNOW I can't do that typing on my computer to people I don't even know in an online forum. To me, this is a hobby, not my spiritual well.

So you can say church is 'not for you' or 'I need something else for ME', but that attitude is not pleasing to God. There is no commandment in the bible that says serve yourself and your interests. Your job as a Christian is to serve HIS great interests by lighting your candle from a local church and reaching as many people as you can with the Gospel that saves.

:down:

That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard in my life!!

(I will address your post in detail later. Until then I think I'll just go :vomit: )

Sold Out

March 21st, 2005, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

:down:

That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard in my life!!

(I will address your post in detail later. Until then I think I'll just go :vomit: )

WELL IF YOU THINK PEOPLE GETTING SAVED IS CRAP, THEN YOU BETTER CHECK YOUR PRIORITIES!!!!!!

Sozo

March 21st, 2005, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by Sold Out

WELL IF YOU THINK PEOPLE GETTING SAVED IS CRAP, THEN YOU BETTER CHECK YOUR PRIORITIES!!!!!! I'm beginning to think that anyone going to YOUR church has almost zero possibility of ever getting saved!

Sold Out

March 21st, 2005, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

I'm beginning to think that anyone going to YOUR church has almost zero possibility of ever getting saved!

How childish can you possibly be? I think you are racked with guilt because you like to spout off all your opinions on this forum and in reality you are doing nothing for God! Only immature Christians made statements like you just made. I think it's time you got a wake up call.

The post initially was NEVER intended for you, so quit answering to what I am asking/commenting to Lighthouse. You are no one's spokesman.

Sozo

March 21st, 2005, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Ok, you don't go to church because you can't sleep at night? Is that what you would tell your boss if you decided not to go to work? Why would your boss get more respect than God?

Who the hell do you think you are? When did God put you in the position of telling other people that they are required to do someting that God has NEVER told them, or YOU, to do?TOL is not the place to be getting your doctrine. Apparently, neither is YOUR church :down: Sitting around arguing various topics on an online forum with people you don't even know is not very wise. Sitting in a pew and blindly following someone who has the same legalistic doctrine that YOU espouse is the apex of ignorance.To be honest, I don't know you - you don't know me, so why would I (or you) take our word for anything? What does knowing the "person" have to do with understanding the truth?The bible says beware of false teachers who are wolves in sheeps clothing. Thanks for warning us about yourself!Satan may very well be using this as a distraction to keep you from church. On the contrary, Satan is more likely using your church to keep YOU from Christ! Your approach to church seems to be a bit selfish....I hear a lot of 'me', and 'I', and not much about helping other people. We don't go to church for ourselves, we go to church for others, especially God. It's obedience! THAT IS A BOLD FACE LIE! Show us where GOD says that in order for us to obey Him we are to go to church. Then, show us what evidence you have that YOU are going to a church that proves that YOU are being obedient to God.So here's a benefit from attending church: Just yesterday my son brought a sister of a friend to church, who just got out of her 3rd drug rehab. She's totally messed up, but she promised her sister she would go to church with her when she got out. We get her to church, and a brother in Christ, who I know was delivered from drug addiction, took her in a side room, gave her the saving Gospel, she accepted it by faith and was saved. Now that is what church is all about - seeing people come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Based on your false proclamations of what it means to be a Christian, I would say that you only transferred this poor girl from one form of bondage into another!The only thing I'm interested in is populating heaven :rolleyes: Is "heaven" the name of YOUR church? Your job as a Christian is to serve HIS great interests by lighting your candle from a local church Oh brother :doh: :nono: Tell that to Hudson Taylor

Sold Out

March 21st, 2005, 11:18 AM

You will have a private message coming your way....I refuse to subject the other members to your bashing.

keypurr

March 21st, 2005, 02:26 PM

Sold Out, I do not doubt your sincere efforts to bring people to Christ. I however am another person who has not darkened the doorway of church for some time. I onlyl found half truths there. But I suppose half truths is better than none. May God bless you in your quest.

Chileice

March 21st, 2005, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Ok, you don't go to church because you can't sleep at night? Is that what you would tell your boss if you decided not to go to work? Why would your boss get more respect than God?

TOL is not the place to be getting your doctrine. Sitting around arguing various topics on an online forum with people you don't even know is not very wise. To be honest, I don't know you - you don't know me, so why would I (or you) take our word for anything? The bible says beware of false teachers who are wolves in sheeps clothing. Satan may very well be using this as a distraction to keep you from church.

Your approach to church seems to be a bit selfish....I hear a lot of 'me', and 'I', and not much about helping other people. We don't go to church for ourselves, we go to church for others, especially God. It's obedience!

So here's a benefit from attending church: Just yesterday my son brought a sister of a friend to church, who just got out of her 3rd drug rehab. She's totally messed up, but she promised her sister she would go to church with her when she got out. We get her to church, and a brother in Christ, who I know was delivered from drug addiction, took her in a side room, gave her the saving Gospel, she accepted it by faith and was saved. Now that is what church is all about - seeing people come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The only thing I'm interested in is populating heaven, and I KNOW I can't do that typing on my computer to people I don't even know in an online forum. To me, this is a hobby, not my spiritual well.

So you can say church is 'not for you' or 'I need something else for ME', but that attitude is not pleasing to God. There is no commandment in the bible that says serve yourself and your interests. Your job as a Christian is to serve HIS great interests by lighting your candle from a local church and reaching as many people as you can with the Gospel that saves.

:thumb: :thumb: Good post, Sold Out. I think many try to substitute TV or internet for real live fellowship. I was blown away when Lighthouse said he had grown more here than in church. Shame on his church. The amount of true Bible knowlwedge that is shared here is minimal. Mostly (myself included) we share our opinions. The rael world of church is a great place to help get the warts filed off. Church is not always comfortable but it is where we can exercise our gifts and learn from others. Christ would have never invented the church otherwise.

It is true that one need not go to church to be saved but many who choose not to go to church become narrow, bitter and incapable of putting up with any idea that doesn't agree with them. They cannot admit that the mind of Christ is discovered in the corporate meeting of the members of His body together.

Hang in there, Sold Out!

Sold Out

March 21st, 2005, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Chileice

:thumb: :thumb: The rael world of church is a great place to help get the warts filed off.

I am so loving that quote (file the warts off...ha ha!!!)...

Thanks for the encouragement.

Sozo

March 21st, 2005, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

I am so loving that quote (file the warts off...ha ha!!!)...

Thanks for the encouragement.

Chileice is a TOL nutcase, and it makes perfect sense that you would receive anything from him/her/it

Lighthouse

March 21st, 2005, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out

Ok, you don't go to church because you can't sleep at night? Is that what you would tell your boss if you decided not to go to work?
I've done it before.

Why would your boss get more respect than God?
:rolleyes:

My faith is not in my boss. Secondly, God won't fire me for not showing up. And thirdly, that's not my only reason for not going to church on Sunday.

TOL is not the place to be getting your doctrine.
What makes you think that? If it hadn't been for TOL, I would still think I could lose my salvation. And I would still be confused about God's omniscience. And I would still live as if I were a slave to sin.

Sitting around arguing various topics on an online forum with people you don't even know is not very wise. To be honest, I don't know you - you don't know me, so why would I (or you) take our word for anything? The bible says beware of false teachers who are wolves in sheeps clothing. Satan may very well be using this as a distraction to keep you from church.
I know a couple of people here. And it was one of them that told me about this site: Jefferson. He used to be my boss.

Your approach to church seems to be a bit selfish....I hear a lot of 'me', and 'I', and not much about helping other people. We don't go to church for ourselves, we go to church for others, especially God. It's obedience!
It is not obedience.

And if I can't bring my ideas into it, then I'm not helping anyone either. When was the last time your husband was able to stand up and ask a question during the sermon?

So here's a benefit from attending church: Just yesterday my son brought a sister of a friend to church, who just got out of her 3rd drug rehab. She's totally messed up, but she promised her sister she would go to church with her when she got out. We get her to church, and a brother in Christ, who I know was delivered from drug addiction, took her in a side room, gave her the saving Gospel, she accepted it by faith and was saved. Now that is what church is all about - seeing people come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The only thing I'm interested in is populating heaven, and I KNOW I can't do that typing on my computer to people I don't even know in an online forum. To me, this is a hobby, not my spiritual well.
I learn from people here, and take it into the real world. Some people listen, others don't. But this is a valuable place for me.

So you can say church is 'not for you' or 'I need something else for ME', but that attitude is not pleasing to God. There is no commandment in the bible that says serve yourself and your interests. Your job as a Christian is to serve HIS great interests by lighting your candle from a local church and reaching as many people as you can with the Gospel that saves.
I never said church wasn't for me. In fact, I am part of the church, and I always will be!

And I do need fed. I need truth. And I need challenged, or I will never gorw! And if I don't grow, what good am I to the kingdom of God?!

P.S.
Sozo can be my spokesman, if he wants.:eek:

Lighthouse

March 21st, 2005, 06:54 PM

Chileice-
My church was always comfortable. Bad place to be. And the place I was before that had unwed mothers all over the place, and everyone acted as if there was nothing wrong with it.

LightSon

March 22nd, 2005, 01:40 AM

Scripture teaches that we ought not forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

It isn't enough for one to say, "go to church", especially since there are "churches" out there where one should not go.

Most of us would agree to "go to the church that has the right doctrine". Of course, one man's right doctrine is another man's false doctrine.

For as much as I love the church body I fellowship with, it is far from perfect. I've know the pastor for many years, and there are things I disagree with him about. I do have certain doctrines that are a "must", but I'm not about to go church shopping unless the Lord moves me that way.

One should find the church that best reflects their understanding of scripture and get involved. And I agree that TOL (for as wonderful as it is) is a poor substitute for a good Bible-believing fellowship.

Sold Out

March 22nd, 2005, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

:rolleyes:
When was the last time your husband was able to stand up and ask a question during the sermon?

Ahhh.....but that's the beauty of belonging to a fellowship of believers. We not only fellowship in a building on Sundays and Wednesdays, but my pastor leads two home bible studies during the week, one of them being at my house, so I would say that every week my husband (or I) can ask our pastor questions directly. I've confronted him on things I don't agree with, and he knows it, but it's ok because they weren't heaven or hell issues. As a matter of fact, today I am going to bring something to his attention when he returns my phone call. Our church has a wonderful pastor because he is so completely humble and refuses to allow anyone to put him on a pedestal.

Someone said that it is difficult to know what church is right and teaches the right doctrine. If a person is saved and in the Word on a daily basis, it shouldn't be hard to spot the genuine article. It's like a girl who's a fashion guru can tell you if someone is wearing a genuine designer brand or a knock-off. She knows her stuff.

Lighthouse...I'm sorry you had to go to a church with such a lax moral attitude. That would be discouraging. Please don't give up looking for a fellowship of believers. We all need each other. 15 years ago I might have had 1 Christian friend I could call on, and it was my pastor. Now if I or my family had a need, I would have over 300 people there to help. Everytime there is a prayer need, someone emails me and I send out an email to everyone in the church. Those are the blessings of fellowship - we exhort, encourage, sympathize. That's what God intended.

Lighthouse

March 22nd, 2005, 02:46 PM

1 Corinthians 14:33-35

Sold Out

March 22nd, 2005, 02:50 PM

So what are you trying to say? I know that women should not be preachers and about speaking in church.

God_Is_Truth

March 22nd, 2005, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Sold Out
Everytime there is a prayer need, someone emails me and I send out an email to everyone in the church.

that doesn't work too well in big churches however.

LightSon

March 23rd, 2005, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by Sold Out
Someone said that it is difficult to know what church is right and teaches the right doctrine. If a person is saved and in the Word on a daily basis, it shouldn't be hard to spot the genuine article..

It wasn't me was it?

I confess to being slightly disillusioned on this point. Your statement sure sounds reasonable.

How is it 2 people can claim to be saved and be in the Word on a daily basis, yet can still vehemently disagree on doctrinal matters, even to the point of throwing rocks at each other?

I have read unspeakable exchanges on TOL by individuals who claim to be in Christ, yet can't seem to stomach another believer. The first attack is to impugn their intelligence by name-calling(e.g. moran, stupid, assinine, etc.) , and then to question their salvation.

It is really very sad. I'm sure the enemies of Christ are pleased to use our infighting as a reason to blaspheme.

Chileice

March 23rd, 2005, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by LightSon

How is it 2 people can claim to be saved and be in the Word on a daily basis, yet can still vehemently disagree on doctrinal matters, even to the point of throwing rocks at each other?

I guess it pretty well proves that we still have the sinful nature.

Originally posted by LightSon
I have read unspeakable exchanges on TOL by individuals who claim to be in Christ, yet can't seem to stomach another believer. The first attack is to impugn their intelligence by name-calling(e.g. moran, stupid, assinine, etc.) , and then to question their salvation.

It is really very sad. I'm sure the enemies of Christ are pleased to use our infighting as a reason to blaspheme.

You are all too right.
:noid:
It is dsad that we can't treat one another with the love Christ enjoined us to use in our relationship with Him, with ourselves and with others.

Sold Out

March 23rd, 2005, 08:38 AM

Both of you make excellent points. People are going to disagree on doctrinal matters and that will never change. What is important, however, is that the MAIN focus be reaching the lost for Christ with the saving Gospel. If we can agree on that, then the non-heaven or hell issues don't hold so much weight.

It takes character and a true demonstration of the 'fruit of the spirit' to peaceably disagree with a fellow brother/sister in Christ. Just keep your Christianity simple!

42ndgen

March 23rd, 2005, 09:52 PM

Hi All:

I just wanted to go back to the original Question regarding whose faith it is in Gal 2:20.

According to the context and to the Greek I will have to say that it is Christ's faith since we are crucified with Him and are dead in Him!!!

I do not see it as us living by faith in the son, but like the Greek says 'I am living in faith which is of the Son.'

In the Hebrew the word amon which is translated belief-faith is defined in the TWOT this way:

This very important concept in biblical doctrine gives clear evidence of the biblical meaning of "faith" in contradistinction to the many popular concepts of the term. At the heart of the meaning of the root is the idea of certainty. And this is borne out by the NT definition of faith found in Heb 11:1.

The basic root idea is firmness or certainty. In the Qal it expresses the basic concept of support and is used in the sense of the strong arms of the parent supporting the helpless infant. The constancy involved in the verbal idea is further seen in that it occurs in the Qal only as a participle (expressing continuance). The idea of support is also seen in 2Kings 18:16, where it refers to pillars of support.

In the Hiphil (causative), it basically means "to cause to be certain, sure" or "to be certain about," "to be assured." In this sense the word in the Hiphil conjugation is the biblical word for "to believe" and shows that biblical faith is an assurance, a certainty, in contrast with modern concepts of faith as something possible, hopefully true, but not certain.

Following from this we find the word in the passive Qal participle used with a passive meaning "one who is established" or "one who is confirmed," i.e. "faithful one" (2Sam 20:19; Psa 12:1 [H 2]; Psa 31:23 [H 24]).

In the Niphal conjugation the meaning is "to be established" (2Sam 7:16; 1Chr 17:23; 2Chr 6:17; Isa 7:9). The Niphal participle means "to be faithful, sure, dependable" and describes believers (Num 12:7; 1Sam 2:35; Neh 9:8). This form is also used to describe that upon which all certainty rests: God himself (Deut 7:9), and his covenant (Psa 89:28 [H 29]).

One interesting illustration of the relationship between "belief" and "being established" is seen in Isa 7:9. Ahaz is told that unless he believes (Hiphil) he will not be established (Niphal), i.e. without faith he has no stability.

Wjere faith is an absolute certainity that what God has said and has quickened by His annointing to us will absolutely come to pass.

This is not how many have used the term faith, they have watered it down to mean something that may or may not come to pass. They have used the term faith to describe their set of doctrinal religious beliefs. I.e. I am of the baptist faith or I am of the Catholic faith or the Mormon faith etc etc. And the sad part is that most are not fully persuaded that what they believe to be true will come to pass. They can confess that by His stripes they are healed all day long and never receive a healing for their infirmities.

True faith on the other Hand is hearing an annointed word from God and no matter what the circumstances are knowing beyond a shadow of doubt that what was annointed will come to pass.
If God annoints the scripture that they are healed by His stripes than they are. No ands if or buts allowed. Just watch God work to preform what He has quickened to them.

Sozo

March 23rd, 2005, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by 42ndgen

Hi All:

I just wanted to go back to the original Question regarding whose faith it is in Gal 2:20.

:Clete:

I must warn you... Staying on subject, is highly discouraged and seldom a problem here. Please try and be an example that we can all relate to. Thank you!

42ndgen

March 24th, 2005, 07:56 PM

Hey Sozo:

I must warn you... Staying on subject, is highly discouraged and seldom a problem here. Please try and be an example that we can all relate to. Thank you!

LOL thanks for the timely word of encouragement???

I look forward to more much neded correction in the future when I get out of line by insisting on returning to the original subject of the post. What was I thinking? :bang:

:zoomin: :dog: :dog:

Grace and Peace Patrick

Lighthouse

March 24th, 2005, 11:52 PM

Patrick-
You made some good points, but I think you meant that we are alive in Christ, not dead in Him.;)

42ndgen

March 25th, 2005, 02:08 AM

Hi Lighthouse:

Rom 6:3-8 KJVA Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

In Gal 2:20 His death at the cross was the death of ourselves. We are still alive but it is not I doing the living, but it is Christ the annointing that is actually living through us.

It is imperative that we know that Christ is living in us so that the Spirit may quicken our mortal bodies.

Rom 8:9-12 KJVA But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

It is so important that if we do not know that He is In Us we are considered reprobate.

2Co 13:4-6 KJVA For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. (5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (6) But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Grace and Peace Patrick

Lighthouse

March 27th, 2005, 08:10 PM

That reminds me, I need to start a new thread.:think:

Bob Hill

July 24th, 2007, 12:15 AM

What we need to know is what God wrote through Paul in Rom 6.

Rom 6:5-11 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Daniel50

July 24th, 2007, 12:28 AM

[QUOTE=Lighthouse;693173]"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
-Galatians 2:20

One of the familiar verse in NT, We are saved by faith In Christ and we live by faith in Christ, furthermore we are identified with Christ by the Spirit that we died with Him.This means we are dead to the Law.

SaulToPaul

July 24th, 2007, 06:30 AM

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
-Galatians 2:20

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Whose faith do we live by? Our own? Christ's? This verse blatantly says we live by His faith, not our own. What does this mean. What are the implications? What do you get from this?

Yep, the part of us that's alive, Christ the new man is alive by his faith!
So, we live by his faith.

themuzicman

July 24th, 2007, 10:51 AM

That is a poor translation. Apparently Erasmus didn't have a text with the correct Greek wording, here.

There is a dative article that leads this passage, such that it should be translated "I live by faith IN the Son of God."

Muz

SaulToPaul

July 24th, 2007, 12:00 PM

"Faith in Christ" makes no sense in the context. "Faith of Christ" makes
perfect sense.

correction: "Faith of the Son of God"

themuzicman

July 24th, 2007, 12:56 PM

The word "faith" in Greek can also mean "trust." Thus, Paul is saying that he lives by "trust in the son of God."

It makes perfect sense, once you get away from your systematic theology.

Muz

SaulToPaul

July 24th, 2007, 01:05 PM

I live by the "trust OF the Son of God"...you're right, that does make sense.

themuzicman

July 24th, 2007, 01:12 PM

I will also note that "faith" in the Greek has no article, so it really can't refer to the specific faith of Christ, but would only make generic reference to faith.

Thus, the translation is "by a faith in the Son of God" or "by faith in the Son of God." To say that the faith is Christ's is, again, ignoring important Greek grammar issues.

Muz

SaulToPaul

July 24th, 2007, 01:15 PM

Once you get to the place where you see that after you trusted Christ God sees you as crucified, buried, and risen with Christ you'll see that "faith of Christ" is correct. It's all about him.

themuzicman

July 24th, 2007, 01:17 PM

Um... you have it backwards. We are crucified with Christ, and THEN we live by faith in the Son of God. This is about our ongoing lives after salvation.

Muz

SaulToPaul

July 24th, 2007, 01:19 PM

Um... you have it backwards. We are crucified with Christ, and THEN we live by faith in the Son of God. This is about our ongoing lives after salvation.

Muz

So, in addition to being crucified with him, were you not also
buried and risen with him?

themuzicman

July 24th, 2007, 01:39 PM

So, in addition to being crucified with him, were you not also
buried and risen with him?

Once again, we need to examine context to determine what Paul is saying:

15 "We [are] Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. 17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 "For if I rebuild what I have [once] destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

This immediately follows Paul's account of calling Peter on his hypocrisy of, after having lived like a Gentile, being persuaded by Judaizers to live like Jews and to teach Gentiles to live like Jews.

Clearly the point Paul is making is that even in Christ, there is no justification by the law, for Jews or Gentiles, and Paul makes this point by saying that after destroying the curse of the law in him, he ought not rebuild it, because he has died to the law, so that he might live to God.

Thus, verse 20 only explains in what way Paul has died to the law, that is in Christ, as we see in Romans 6, being unified with Christ with His death (through water baptism.) Thus, this death is a death to the law, as a result of Christ's propitiation on our part. Thus, as we have been saved by faith through being unified in His death, we, too, also ought to live by faith in the Son of God now that we are saved, rather than returning to living under the law, seeking justification by the law.

Therefore, the contrast that Paul is making is living by faith in God, rather than by seeking justification through the law.

Muz