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On Fire
March 15th, 2005, 08:47 AM
Jon Stewart, the sage of Comedy Central, is one of the few to be honest about it. "What if Bush ... has been right about this all along? I feel like my world view will not sustain itself and I may ... implode." Daniel Schorr, another critic of the Bush foreign policy, ventured, a bit more grudgingly, that Bush "may have had it right."

Right on what? That America, using power harnessed to democratic ideals, could begin a transformation of the Arab world from endless tyranny and intolerance to decent governance and democratization. Two years ago, shortly before the invasion of Iraq, I argued in these pages that forcefully deposing Saddam Hussein was, more than anything, about America "coming ashore" to effect a "pan-Arab reformation"--a dangerous, "risky and, yes, arrogant" but necessary attempt to change the very culture of the Middle East, to open its doors to democracy and modernity.

The Administration went ahead with this great project knowing it would be hostage to history. History has begun to speak. Elections in Afghanistan, a historic first. Elections in Iraq, a historic first. Free Palestinian elections producing a moderate leadership, two historic firsts. Municipal elections in Saudi Arabia, men only, but still a first. In Egypt, demonstrations for democracy--unheard of in decades--prompting the dictator to announce free contested presidential elections, a historic first.

And now, of course, the most romantic flowering of the spirit America went into the region to foster: the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon, in which unarmed civilians, Christian and Muslim alike, brought down the puppet government installed by Syria. There is even the beginning of a breeze in Damascus. More than 140 Syrian intellectuals have signed a public statement defying their government by opposing its occupation of Lebanon.

To what do we attribute this Arab spring? While American (and European) liberal and "realist" critics are seeking some explanation, those a bit closer to the scene don't flinch from the obvious. "It is strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq," Lebanese Druze leader Walid Jumblatt explained to David Ignatius of the Washington Post. "I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, 8 million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world. The Syrian people, the Egyptian people, all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen. We can see it."

When Ronald Reagan declared that the unfreedom imposed by communism was simply unsustainable and that it should be not appeased or accommodated, but instead forced--by the power and will of free peoples--into the ash heap of history, he was ridiculed and patronized as a simpleton. Clark Clifford famously called him an amiable dunce. The amiable dunce went on to win the cold war.

Two decades later, another patronized President. Our intellectuals and Middle East "experts" have been telling us that Bush's grand project to democratize the region is the fantasy of a historical illiterate. Faced with the stunning Iraqi election, they went to great lengths to attribute this inconvenient yet undeniable success to the courage of the Iraqi people.

This is all very nice. But this courage was rather dormant before the American invasion. It was America's overthrow of Saddam's republic of fear that gave to the Iraqi people space and air and the very possibility of expressing courage.

Those now waxing rhapsodic about the courage of the natives and the beauty of people power need to ask themselves the obvious question: Why now? It is easy to get sentimental about people power. But people power does not always prevail. Indeed, it rarely prevails. It was crushed in Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968, Tiananmen Square 1989--and Iraq 1991. Matched against tyranny at its point of maximum cruelty, people power is useless.

In the 1991 uprising, tens of thousands of Shi'ites and Kurds were killed by the raw power of Saddam's helicopters and tanks and secret police. What was different this time? No Saddam. The American army had come ashore to disarm and depose him. After the sword, it provided the shield to allow 8 million Iraqis to revel in their first exercise of democratic self-governance.

Why now? Because until now the forces of decency in the region were alone and naked, cynically ignored by an outside world content to deal with their oppressors. Then comes America, not just proclaiming democratic liberation as its overriding foreign policy principle but sacrificing blood and treasure in the service of precisely that principle.

It was not people power that set this in motion. It was American power. People power followed. Which is why the critics of the Bush doctrine take refuge in a second Bush-free explanation. They locate the reason for this astonishing Arab spring, if not in people power from below, then in rot from above. These superannuated dictatorships, we are now told, were fossilized and frail, already wobbly and ready to fall, just waiting to be undone by the slightest challenge.

Interesting. If the rot was always there, why is it that these critics never said so before? They never suggested that we challenge these wobbly despots? In fact, they bitterly denounced the Bush doctrine for presuming to destabilize the region in pursuit of some democratic chimera? They opposed the Bush doctrine precisely because they preferred stability. They warned us darkly that the alternative to the status quo was the seething Arab street--an unruly mob, anarchic, anti-American, pan-Arabist or perhaps Islamist, ignorant of all liberal traditions and ready to rise up against America should it disturb the perfect order of things by "imposing democracy."

Turns out, the critics, liberal and "realist," That means all you Commies got the Arab street wrong. In Iraq and Lebanon, the Arab street finally got to speak, and mirabile dictu, it speaks of freedom and dignity. It does not bay for American blood. On the contrary, its leaders now openly point to the American example and American intervention as having provided the opening for this first tentative venture in freedom.

What really changed in the Middle East? The Iraqi elections vindicated the two central propositions of the Bush doctrine. First, that the will to freedom is indeed universal and not the private preserve of Westerners. And second, that American intentions were sincere. Contrary to the cynics, Arab and European and American, the U.S. did not go into Iraq for oil or hegemony, after all, but for liberation--a truth that on Jan. 31 even al-Jazeera had to televise.

This was the critical event because Arabs have had good reason to doubt American sincerity: six decades of U.S. support for Arab dictators, a cynical "realism" that began with F.D.R.'s deal with Ibn Saud and reached its apogee with the 1991 betrayal of the anti-Saddam uprising that Bush 41 had encouraged in Iraq. Today, however, they see a different Bush and a different doctrine. What changed the climate in the Middle East was not just the U.S. invasion and show of arms. It was U.S. determination and staying power, and the refusal of its people last November to turn out a President who rejected an "exit strategy" but pledged instead to remain until Iraqi self-governance was secure.

It took this marriage of power, will and principle to produce the astonishing developments in the Middle East today. This is not to say that this spring cannot be extinguished. Of course it can. The dictators can still strike back, and we may flinch in defense of those they strike. History has yet to yield a verdict on the final outcome. But it has yielded one unmistakable verdict thus far: the idea that Arabs are not fit for or inclined toward freedom--the underlying assumption of those who denounced, ridiculed and otherwise opposed the democracy project--is wrong. Embarrassingly, scandalously, blessedly wrong.

Gerald
March 15th, 2005, 09:35 AM
:yawn:

Now, all that remains is to wean them off worshipping that enshrined meteorite in Mecca, and keep them from getting sucked in by the cross-chuckers.

BillyBob
March 15th, 2005, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by On Fire

Bush was right all along


I never doubted it! :up:

On Fire
March 15th, 2005, 11:25 AM
Where are the :Commie:s?

Gerald
March 15th, 2005, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by On Fire
Where are the :Commie:s? All dead?

I understood hiding the bodies to be your job... :chuckle:

BillyBob
March 15th, 2005, 11:43 AM
That's why asking about them is so clever. Nice cover-up, OF!

Gerald
March 15th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

That's why asking about them is so clever. Nice cover-up, OF! After all, who would suspect a Real Christian™ of slitting people's throats while they slept...? :chuckle:

Lucky
March 15th, 2005, 12:18 PM
I think it was a couple of weeks ago I was watching something on ABC(!) that was actually giving Bush some credit he deserves. They mentioned how Bush-haters are even having to rethink their position.

On Fire
March 15th, 2005, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

I think it was a couple of weeks ago I was watching something on ABC(!) that was actually giving Bush some credit he deserves. They mentioned how Bush-haters are even having to rethink their position.

That's assuming they are capable of clear thought. Old commies are never wrong...they just fade away.

Gerald
March 15th, 2005, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by On Fire

That's assuming they are capable of clear thought. Old commies are never wrong...they just fade away. You misspelled "their brains get blown out"... :chuckle:

BillyBob
March 15th, 2005, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

I think it was a couple of weeks ago I was watching something on ABC(!) that was actually giving Bush some credit he deserves. They mentioned how Bush-haters are even having to rethink their position.

I have been hearing similar claims and even posted an article a few weeks ago written by a lib who [as hard as it was for him to admit] conceded that Bush was probably right with his plan in the Middle East.

Gerald
March 15th, 2005, 01:27 PM
I'll be interested to see whether the Administration will try to induce the House of Saud to abdicate, the goal being to turn Saudi Arabia into a republic.
:darwinsm:

BillyBob
March 15th, 2005, 01:31 PM
You mean like this:


'Islamist win' in key Saudi poll (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4252079.stm)


The poll is part of an official plan to bring elements of democracy to the Gulf kingdom, with 1,800 candidates vying for 592 seats in 178 councils.

Later rounds will be staged in other parts of the kingdom over a period of two months.

In Riyadh, 650 candidates have been fighting for just seven seats.

Women are excluded from the polls and only some 148,000 of 400,000 eligible men have registered to vote in Riyadh.

Surprise outcome

According to official figures quoted by AFP news agency, over 70% of registered voters turned out.

Observers and losing candidates said at least five of the seven winners' names had been on a list distributed by internet and mobile phone, which had religious backing.

Correspondents say the apparent outcome is a surprise in view of a high-profile campaign run by wealthy businessmen and real estate developers.

But at least one losing candidate said he would challenge the result on the grounds that the winners had violated election law forbidding any public alliance of candidates.

Voting was initially slow but the numbers arriving at polling stations in Riyadh and its suburbs increased as the day went on.

"This was a wonderful moment," Badr al-Faqih, a 54-year-old geography professor, told AP after casting the first ballot at one polling station. "This is a first step towards more elections."

Final results are unlikely to be released until Friday or Saturday.

The polls can be seen as a small step in Saudi Arabia's measured response to calls for reform, says the BBC's Kim Ghattas in Riyadh.

Regrets

The powers of the municipal council are not clear and half the council will still be chosen, as before, by appointment.

Saudi Arabian election gathering
After a slow start, voter turnout picked up as the day wore on

Despite a late flurry of electioneering in Riyadh, the excitement of candidates has not been matched by that of their constituents, our correspondent says.

Candidates started campaigning only after voter registration ended and some Saudis say they now regret not having signed up to vote.

After Riyadh region, the next two phases of the polls will see the south and east of the country voting in early March and the north and west casting their ballots in late April.

Nationwide, more than three million Saudis are said to be eligible out of a population of some 24 million.

A US state department spokesman said the polls were "a sign that Saudi Arabia is not immune to the reforms sweeping the region".

Gerald
March 15th, 2005, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob
You mean like this:
Local elections of petty government cogs don't mean squat.

The House of Saud is still Large and In Charge, and shows no sign of closing up shop anytime soon.

On Fire
March 15th, 2005, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Local elections of petty government cogs don't mean squat.

The House of Saud is still Large and In Charge, and shows no sign of closing up shop anytime soon. NO signs?

Redfin
March 15th, 2005, 02:13 PM
Check out the article from this week's Newsweek.
(a magazine which can in no way be considered generally sympathetic to the conservatives)

What Bush Got Right (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7103517/site/newsweek/)

The sub-heading begins -

"The president has been right on some big questions. Now, if he can get the little stuff right, he'll change the world."

On Fire
March 15th, 2005, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Redfin

Check out the article from this week's Newsweek.
(a magazine which can in no way be considered generally sympathetic to the conservatives)

"The president has been right on some big questions. Now, if he can get the little stuff right, he'll change the world."

By "little stuff" I assume they mean every immoral act known to man.

Redfin
March 15th, 2005, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by On Fire

By "little stuff" I assume they mean every immoral act known to man.

Instead of assuming, you might try reading the article...

Gerald
March 15th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by On Fire
NO signs? Prototype hydrogen-burning cars don't mean squat.

The House of Saud is still Large and In Charge, and shows no sign of closing up shop anytime soon.

drbrumley
March 15th, 2005, 06:41 PM
Wow, how gullible.

Mustard Seed
March 15th, 2005, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

All dead?


No. They're alive and kicking. But, at least in Russia, commies seem to have an obsesion with preserving dead of their kind, couldn't do family history in communist Russia but we'll come up with the best science can give us for preserving our leaders dead bodies. So rather than hide the bodies they leave them displayed forever.

Mustard Seed
March 15th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Local elections of petty government cogs don't mean squat.

The House of Saud is still Large and In Charge, and shows no sign of closing up shop anytime soon.

The house of Saud is not large and their 'in-charge' status is far from permanent. Like the late Czar's of Russia the tighter they sqweeze on power the more it slips, yet a lessening of their grip and the fish flips to and fro with more ferocity. They know the House of Cards/Saud is starting to fold. Their just trying to figure delay and survival tactics.

Skeptic
March 16th, 2005, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I have been hearing similar claims and even posted an article a few weeks ago written by a lib who [as hard as it was for him to admit] conceded that Bush was probably right with his plan in the Middle East. As I've said many times before, even if tomorrow Iraq (or even the entire Middle East) became the most democratic peace-loving country the world has ever seen, this still would not justify the unnecessary and immoral slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children, that was the invasion of Iraq.

Delmar
March 16th, 2005, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Skeptic

As I've said many times before, even if tomorrow Iraq (or even the entire Middle East) became the most democratic peace-loving country the world has ever seen, this still would not justify the unnecessary and immoral slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children, that was the invasion of Iraq. Yes you have said it many times before, and you were wrong evrey time!

On Fire
March 16th, 2005, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Skeptic

As I've said many times before, even if tomorrow Iraq (or even the entire Middle East) became the most democratic peace-loving country the world has ever seen, this still would not justify the unnecessary and immoral slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children, that was the invasion of Iraq.
Why don't you grow a backbone and evolve?

drbrumley
March 16th, 2005, 08:35 AM
George Bush was right about what?????

drRansom
March 16th, 2005, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by drbrumley

George Bush was right about what?????

Big government and the continued ushering in of a one world government, mainly.

drbrumley
March 16th, 2005, 09:28 AM
We're not one whit safer than we were before.

We're a whole lot less free than we were before.

Not one person, not one group, not one population in the Middle East is freer than two years ago.

The fact that Iraq had an election (as they did under Hussein), or that Hosni Mubarak is thinking about letting some Egyptian run against him and lose, or that a handful of Saudis got to vote for some local tribesmen, or that Lebanon will be having an election soon (they have them regularly already) doesn't make anyone freer than he was two years ago.

BillyBob
March 16th, 2005, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by drbrumley

We're not one whit safer than we were before.

We're a whole lot less free than we were before.

Not one person, not one group, not one population in the Middle East is freer than two years ago.




Lies...all lies.

drbrumley
March 16th, 2005, 09:35 AM
Only in YOUR mind.

BillyBob
March 16th, 2005, 09:39 AM
No, in reality.

25 million people in Afghanistan just had their first free election EVER! Afghani females are now allowed attend school. Terrorists are locked up and the terrorist networks have been routed.

drbrumley
March 16th, 2005, 09:43 AM
Right, and who is STILL in charge? The WarLords. And why, cause the Opium. I can have an election at any time with the folks I want. Guess what, I still win no matter. Thats not a free election.

BillyBob
March 16th, 2005, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by drbrumley

Right, and who is STILL in charge? The WarLords. And why, cause the Opium. I can have an election at any time with the folks I want. Guess what, I still win no matter. Thats not a free election.

While you're walking around all day with your eyes closed, don't you bump into a lot of things?

drbrumley
March 16th, 2005, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

While you walking around all day with your eyes closed, don't you bump into a lot of things?

:darwinsm:

BillyBob
March 16th, 2005, 09:53 AM
:banana:


I like how these debates quickly deteriorate into personal insults! :chuckle:

drbrumley
March 16th, 2005, 09:55 AM
Well, Im not personally insulting you. I'm just pokin fun at you. Nothing that I believe. You do the same.

BillyBob
March 16th, 2005, 09:58 AM
Yeah, I guess that's why it so funny.

On Fire
March 16th, 2005, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Lies...all lies.

:up:

Mustard Seed
March 16th, 2005, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by drbrumley

We're not one whit safer than we were before.

When was the last terrorist attack on the homeland?

Why are fewer people dying in Iraq now on average than during an ordinary month of Sadam's rule?


We're a whole lot less free than we were before.

Please give us your litany of those things you could do before and that you can't do now.


Not one person, not one group, not one population in the Middle East is freer than two years ago.

Wow. Define "free" for us as you seem to be using an odd definition I am unffamiliar with.

The fact that Iraq had an election (as they did under Hussein), or that Hosni Mubarak is thinking about letting some Egyptian run against him and lose, or that a handful of Saudis got to vote for some local tribesmen, or that Lebanon will be having an election soon (they have them regularly already) doesn't make anyone freer than he was two years ago.

There's a key difference between the elections that just happened and those before. It's called CHOICE. There were active campaigns and more candidates running than they could easily fit on the ballot. Show me when active campaigning as we just saw or such broad and openly visible participation ever occured under Sadam.

You realy should read more, with a larger variety of substantial sources, news. And some more accurate history lessons couldn't hurt.

Morpheus
March 16th, 2005, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Mustard Seed
There's a key difference between the elections that just happened and those before. It's called CHOICE. There were active campaigns and more candidates running than they could easily fit on the ballot. Show me when active campaigning as we just saw or such broad and openly visible participation ever occured under Sadam. It's difficult to buy the choice and campaign arguments since they didn't know who most of the candidates were more than a couple of days prior to the election.

Mustard Seed
March 17th, 2005, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Morpheus

It's difficult to buy the choice and campaign arguments since they didn't know who most of the candidates were more than a couple of days prior to the election.

Most American's don't know what there choices are untill they go to the polls. Was the Iraqi election on par with US elections, No. Was it a fabrication just for appearances like Sadam's 'elections', far from it. Iraqis are rediscovering their own country. Their traveling to different parts that they couldn't get to before without almost certain death. Resort towns are booked five plus months in advance as Iraqis get their first chance to realy get to know their own country beyond the media of the despot Hussein. Is their media, politics or anything instantaneously perfect, no. I again reiterate the unrealistic and out of perspective expectations you seem to have Morpheus. If you want to seriously look at the issues and really find the truth you need to get quite a bit furhter away from your ridged paradigms than you are currently seeming to be willing to. A paradigm shift, or several of them, would do you some good.

drbrumley
March 17th, 2005, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Mustard Seed

Most American's don't know what there choices are untill they go to the polls. Was the Iraqi election on par with US elections, No. Was it a fabrication just for appearances like Sadam's 'elections', far from it. Iraqis are rediscovering their own country. Their traveling to different parts that they couldn't get to before without almost certain death. Resort towns are booked five plus months in advance as Iraqis get their first chance to realy get to know their own country beyond the media of the despot Hussein. Is their media, politics or anything instantaneously perfect, no. I again reiterate the unrealistic and out of perspective expectations you seem to have Morpheus. If you want to seriously look at the issues and really find the truth you need to get quite a bit furhter away from your ridged paradigms than you are currently seeming to be willing to. A paradigm shift, or several of them, would do you some good.

Thats one of the problems MS. People pull the lever on the booth without knowing anything about a canadate[sp?] or an issue. Here in America. Wow, how apathetic!!!!!!! So I agree on that point.

Morpheus
March 17th, 2005, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by Mustard Seed

Most American's don't know what there choices are untill they go to the polls. Was the Iraqi election on par with US elections, No. Was it a fabrication just for appearances like Sadam's 'elections', far from it. Iraqis are rediscovering their own country. Their traveling to different parts that they couldn't get to before without almost certain death. Resort towns are booked five plus months in advance as Iraqis get their first chance to realy get to know their own country beyond the media of the despot Hussein. Is their media, politics or anything instantaneously perfect, no. I again reiterate the unrealistic and out of perspective expectations you seem to have Morpheus. If you want to seriously look at the issues and really find the truth you need to get quite a bit furhter away from your ridged paradigms than you are currently seeming to be willing to. A paradigm shift, or several of them, would do you some good. You stated in another thread that you were no expert on history. I would suggest an in depth study, researching more than one dimension. I, like you, was indoctrinated in my youth. I had my eyes opened. It can be difficult trying to show the blind the door out of their prison when they don't realize they are blind and don't want to leave because their cell is what they know, and they feel secure in it.

Frank Ernest
March 17th, 2005, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by Morpheus

You stated in another thread that you were no expert on history. I would suggest an in depth study, researching more than one dimension. I, like you, was indoctrinated in my youth. I had my eyes opened. It can be difficult trying to show the blind the door out of their prison when they don't realize they are blind and don't want to leave because their cell is what they know, and they feel secure in it.
Even worse when a person blinds himself and puts himself in prison as you have. Sad indeed. :cry:

On Fire
March 17th, 2005, 01:27 PM
Bush was right.

BillyBob
March 17th, 2005, 02:11 PM
Bush is still right!

Skeptic
March 17th, 2005, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Bush is still right! Bush is still wrong!

On Fire
March 17th, 2005, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Skeptic

Bush is still wrong!

Yeah, he was wrong about YOU. He thought you had a brain but then you opened your mouth.

Mustard Seed
March 17th, 2005, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Morpheus

You stated in another thread that you were no expert on history. I would suggest an in depth study, researching more than one dimension. I, like you, was indoctrinated in my youth. I had my eyes opened. It can be difficult trying to show the blind the door out of their prison when they don't realize they are blind and don't want to leave because their cell is what they know, and they feel secure in it.

Very few are experts in history. The likes of Will and Ariel Durant are a few that make the cut. Many are so specialized that they only know a few sections really well. I'd dare say I know a great deal more than you do.

The very fact that you believe you've popped above all the mists of inculcation and propeganda is telling as to yout depth, or lack thereof, in the realm of history. I acknowledge a great deal is not accessable to me but there are very very very few in this world, espicialy today, that have anythinng approaching a clear and somewhat comprehensive view on history. The subject is just to all encompasing. To certainly grasp it one must almost lay hold on omniscience as to all things human, and then some.

Delmar
March 28th, 2005, 03:09 PM
Lies...all lies.Doc's not lying he's just a little whacked on this issue.