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Morpheus
March 16th, 2005, 07:17 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/15/politics/15treaty.html?pagewanted=1&th

Bush Seeks to Ban Some Nations From All Nuclear Technology
By DAVID E. SANGER

Published: March 15, 2005


ASHINGTON, March 14 - Behind President Bush's recent shift in dealing with Iran's nuclear program lies a less visible goal: to rewrite, in effect, the main treaty governing the spread of nuclear technology, without actually renegotiating it.

In their public statements and background briefings in recent days, Mr. Bush's aides have acknowledged that Iran appears to have the right - on paper, at least - to enrich uranium to produce electric power. But Mr. Bush has managed to convince his reluctant European allies that the only acceptable outcome of their negotiations with Iran is that it must give up that right.

In what amounts to a reinterpretation of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, Mr. Bush now argues that there is a new class of nations that simply cannot be trusted with the technology to produce nuclear material even if the treaty itself makes no such distinction.

So far the administration has not declared publicly that its larger goal beyond Iran is to remake a treaty whose intellectual roots date back to the Eisenhower administration, under the cold war banner of "Atoms for Peace." To state publicly that Iran is really a test case of Mr. Bush's broader effort, one senior administration official said, "would complicate what's already a pretty messy negotiation."

But just three days before the White House announced its new approach to Iran - in which it allowed Europe to offer broader incentives in return for an agreement to ask the United Nations for sanctions if Iran refuses to give up the ability to make nuclear material - Mr. Bush issued a statement that left little doubt about where he was headed.

The statement was advertised by the White House as a routine commemoration of the treaty's 35th anniversary, and a prelude to a meeting in May in New York to consider its future. It never mentioned Iran by name. But after lauding the past accomplishments of the treaty, also known as the N.P.T., in limiting the spread of nuclear arms, Mr. Bush went on to say, "We cannot allow rogue states that violate their commitments and defy the international community to undermine the N.P.T.'s fundamental role in strengthening international security.

"We must therefore close the loopholes that allow states to produce nuclear materials that can be used to build bombs under the cover of civilian nuclear programs."

On Sunday, his new national security adviser, Stephen J. Hadley, took the next step, making clear the connection to the current crisis with Iran. Yes, he said on CNN, the Iranians say their nuclear work is entirely for peaceful purposes. He cited no new evidence of a secret Iranian project to build a bomb, though that is what the Central Intelligence Agency and officials like Mr. Hadley insist is happening. (Inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency say they join in the suspicion, but have no compelling evidence.)

But Mr. Hadley emphasized that Iran's leaders "keep their secrets very well." They hid much of their enrichment activity from international inspectors for 18 years, then insisted that it was not really for weapons, he said. He said that "raises serious suspicions" about Iran's true intent. Now, he said, the Europeans have come around to the view that "the best guarantee is for them to permanently abandon their enrichment facilities."

Mr. Bush could have called for renegotiating the treaty. But in background interviews, administration officials say they have neither the time nor the patience for that process. By the time all 189 signers come to an agreement, noted one official who left the White House recently: "The Iranians will look like the North Koreans, waving their bombs around. We can't afford to make that mistake again." (North Korea has declared it is no longer a party to the treaty, though it signed it. Israel, India and Pakistan never signed it.)

After a visit to Tehran last week for a conference that Iran sponsored to explain its nuclear ambitions, George Perkovich, a nuclear expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, said he had concluded that Mr. Bush had the right instinct, but might not be taking the right approach.

"The Iranians have decided to go on the offensive and simply assert their right, even if the treaty doesn't explicitly say that they have a right to enrich their own uranium," he said Monday. The view expressed by Iran's nuclear negotiators, he said, amounted to "We're not hiding it, we're not embarrassed by it, and no one is going to take our right away."

Iran's leaders are still testing the Europeans, believing that in the end, Europe will decide to take the risk of letting Iran manufacture its own nuclear fuel rather than engage in a confrontation, Mr. Perkovich said.

At the heart of Mr. Bush's concern is a fundamental flaw in the treaty. As long as nations allow inspections and declare their facilities and nuclear work, they get the atomic agency's seal of approval and, often, technical aid. But there is nothing to prevent a country, once it has learned how to enrich uranium or reprocess spent nuclear fuel rods, from withdrawing from the treaty and moving full-bore toward a bomb. North Korea did exactly that two years ago, and now says it reprocessed a huge cache of spent nuclear fuel to make it suitable for weapons. While American intelligence estimates vary, the consensus appears to be that that is enough to produce six or eight nuclear weapons.

While Mr. Bush and the director general of the I.A.E.A., Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei, have different proposals to deal with the problem, they agree that established nuclear nations should supply fuel to countries that need it. While this would help ensure that no nation could secretly produce bomb-grade fuel, smaller countries say they should not be dependent on the West or international consortiums for a crucial source of energy.

A little more than a year ago, after the arrest of A. Q. Khan, the Pakistani nuclear engineer who helped arm Iran, North Korea and Libya, Mr. Bush announced a proposal: in the future, the world will not allow countries to manufacture nuclear fuel. He exempted any nation already producing it - meaning the United States, many European nations and Japan, among others. So far, he has done little to turn that proposal into legal language, and so far he has garnered almost no support.

But the nuclear clock is ticking, and some of Mr. Bush's aides fear that Iran is heading the same way as North Korea did in the 1990's - playing out the negotiations while its scientists and engineers pick up skills, leaving open a withdrawal from the treaty. Alternatively, some in the C.I.A. believe that there are really two nuclear projects under way in Iran: a public one that inspectors visit, and a parallel, secret one on the country's military reservations.

The Iranians deny that, but admit they have built huge tunnels at some crucial sites and buried other facilities altogether. Mr. Perkovich said that when Iranian officials were asked about that at the conference, they answered, "If you thought the Americans were going to bomb you, wouldn't you bury this stuff, too?" So instead of renegotiating a treaty, let's just rewrite it. What the hey. We haven't been honoring it ourselves, but now since we can't prove Iran isn't, we need to change the field to put them out of bounds.

Art Deco
March 16th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Morpheus

So instead of renegotiating a treaty, let's just rewrite it. What the hey. We haven't been honoring it ourselves, but now since we can't prove Iran isn't, we need to change the field to put them out of bounds. Are you a treaty junky? Do you love all treaties? I'm sure from your enlightened point of view we don't have enough treaties that bind us down and destroy our national sovereignty. :doh:

drbrumley
March 16th, 2005, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Art Deco

Are you a treaty junky? Do you love all treaties? I'm sure from your enlightened point of view we don't have enough treaties that bind us down and destroy our national sovereignty. :doh:

You just don't get it.

Frank Ernest
March 17th, 2005, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by drbrumley

You just don't get it.
:darwinsm:

On Fire
March 17th, 2005, 06:36 AM
:cow: poop

Morpheus
March 17th, 2005, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by Art Deco

Are you a treaty junky? Do you love all treaties? I'm sure from your enlightened point of view we don't have enough treaties that bind us down and destroy our national sovereignty. :doh: We entered into those treaties not so much to tie ourselves down (we violate them all the time), but to tie down everyone else. The philosophy is that it is alright for us to do as we please, but we need to control the rest of the world somehow so that we can maintain our advantage. To you that might make sense, but I don't view us as superior beings when compared to foreigners.

Art Deco
March 17th, 2005, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by drbrumley

You just don't get it. Really? And you do. :help:

Art Deco
March 17th, 2005, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Morpheus

We entered into those treaties not so much to tie ourselves down (we violate them all the time), but to tie down everyone else. The philosophy is that it is alright for us to do as we please, but we need to control the rest of the world somehow so that we can maintain our advantage. To you that might make sense, but I don't view us as superior beings when compared to foreigners. That's unfortunate, I do. America, is the greatest country the world has ever seen. My only interest is in what is best for the American people. Call me a jingoist, natavist, an "America Firster," anything but an internationalist. :think:

Gerald
March 17th, 2005, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Art Deco
That's unfortunate, I do. America, is the greatest country the world has ever seen. My only interest is in what is best for the American people. Call me a jingoist, natavist, an "America Firster," anything but an internationalist. :think: So, you consider breaking an agreement when it becomes inconvenient to be acceptable?

Art Deco
March 17th, 2005, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

So, you consider breaking an agreement when it becomes inconvenient to be acceptable? Absolutely...Agreements, like the liberal view of the constitution, are living documents, to be interpreted as circumstances dictate. :think:

Gerald
March 17th, 2005, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Art Deco
Absolutely...Agreements, like the liberal view of the constitution, are living documents, to be interpreted as circumstances dictate. :think: Y'know, Deco, you're starting to sound like someone who would be willing to screw his friends if it was advantageous to do so...

Art Deco
March 17th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Y'know, Deco, you're starting to sound like someone who would be willing to screw his friends if it was advantageous to do so... Gerald...are you showing some moral concern here... :confused: What about your image? :chuckle:

Gerald
March 17th, 2005, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Art Deco
Gerald...are you showing some moral concern here... :confused:Hardly. I'm just wondering how someone like you, who claims to be moral, can justify engaging in behaviors that are, by your definition, immoral.

That smacks of hypocrisy to me...:think:

Art Deco
March 17th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Hardly. I'm just wondering how someone like you, who claims to be moral, can justify engaging in behaviors that are, by your definition, immoral.

That smacks of hypocrisy to me...:think: It is moral to support and defend your own people. To hell with agreements that have served their purpose, and outlived their usefulness. Globalists have an agenda, bind America down with treaties that forbid the U.S. from acting in its own self interst. Kerry wants the U.S. to seek a consensus with the World before we act. No thanks. America First. :FrankiE:

Frank Ernest
March 18th, 2005, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by Art Deco

It is moral to support and defend your own people. To hell with agreements that have served their purpose, and outlived their usefulness. Globalists have an agenda, bind America down with treaties that forbid the U.S. from acting in its own self interst. Kerry wants the U.S. to seek a consensus with the World before we act. No thanks. America First. :FrankiE:
:BRAVO:
Notice that the anti-American posters NEVER EVER get critical of foreign nations WHO ROUTINELY BREAK, CHEAT ON AND ABROGATE treaties made with the United states.

Underlined and bold statement is Right On! :thumb:
:the_wave:

Morpheus
March 18th, 2005, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by Frank Ernest

:BRAVO:
Notice that the anti-American posters NEVER EVER get critical of foreign nations WHO ROUTINELY BREAK, CHEAT ON AND ABROGATE treaties made with the United states.

Underlined and bold statement is Right On! :thumb:
:the_wave: AndOriginally posted by Art Deco It is moral to support and defend your own people. To hell with agreements that have served their purpose, and outlived their usefulness. Globalists have an agenda, bind America down with treaties that forbid the U.S. from acting in its own self interst. Kerry wants the U.S. to seek a consensus with the World before we act. No thanks. America First. Then there were the treaties with the Native Americans. You guys must really mean, "Lilly White Right-wing America First".

Gerald
March 18th, 2005, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Art Deco
It is moral to support and defend your own people. To hell with agreements that have served their purpose, and outlived their usefulness. Globalists have an agenda, bind America down with treaties that forbid the U.S. from acting in its own self interst. Kerry wants the U.S. to seek a consensus with the World before we act. No thanks. America First. :FrankiE:
Translation: We will take what we want, from whomever we want, by guile if possible, by force if necessary.

So, if you and I were to enter into a contractual agreement, and it profitted you to break the stipulations of that contractual agreement, you'd do it? You'd screw me over to advance yourself?

Remember, all you're doing is looking out for you and yours. If that's the way you want to play, I'm fine with it. Just don't holler foul when the other guy does it to you...

Gerald
March 18th, 2005, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Frank Earnest
Notice that the anti-American posters NEVER EVER get critical of foreign nations WHO ROUTINELY BREAK, CHEAT ON AND ABROGATE treaties made with the United states.But if you respond to such actions in kind, then you are in no position to claim moral superiority. If you do claim such, you are a hypocrite.

If you're okay with being a hypocrite, that's not my problem.

Art Deco
March 18th, 2005, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Morpheus

AndThen there were the treaties with the Native Americans. You guys must really mean, "Lilly White Right-wing America First". What's good for "lilly white" Right-wing Americans is good for all Americans. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. :angel:

Gerald
March 18th, 2005, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Art Deco
What's good for "lilly white" Right-wing Americans is good for all Americans. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. :angel: And since the natives weren't technically Americans (after all, you don't see any of their names on the Declaration of Independence)...:think:

Y'know, Deco, I think I've figured out how your mind works.

Imagine, an atheist who's more principled than a Christian. Who'd a-thunk it? :chuckle:

Of course, if you're one of the Elect™, you can do no wrong anyway...

On Fire
March 18th, 2005, 11:24 AM
:yawn: Same song, different day.

Gerald
March 18th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by On Fire
:yawn: Same song, different day. Yeah, you've said you don't believe you're on a higher moral plane than me.

Your actions here put the lie to that.

And saying you're a flawed, fallen human being is no excuse.

Morpheus
March 18th, 2005, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Art Deco

What's good for "lilly white" Right-wing Americans is good for all Americans. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness as long as I end up on top. :angel: :freak:

Art Deco
March 18th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Morpheus

:freak: If you're going to edit my post please indicate said edit for clarity sake. :think:

Art Deco
March 18th, 2005, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

And since the natives weren't technically Americans (after all, you don't see any of their names on the Declaration of Independence)...:think: If you understood the nature of God you would know that He sets the boundaries for the nations. America was established by divine providence.

Posted by Gerald: Y'know, Deco, I think I've figured out how your mind works. Imagine, an atheist who's more principled than a Christian. Who'd a-thunk it? :chuckle: Your mind is playing tricks on you again...:chuckle:

Posted by Gerald: Of course, if you're one of the Elect™, you can do no wrong anyway... Well now I wouldn't say that...Moses made a mistake and paid the price.

Frank Ernest
March 19th, 2005, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by :mock:Morbideus

AndThen there were the treaties with the Native Americans. You guys must really mean, "Lilly White Right-wing America First".
:darwinsm: Even money says you have never read one of those treaties or know the history of them.

:Commie:

Frank Ernest
March 19th, 2005, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Hairball the Physic

But if you respond to such actions in kind, then you are in no position to claim moral superiority. If you do claim such, you are a hypocrite.

If you're okay with being a hypocrite, that's not my problem.
:darwinsm: Taking psychopolitibabble lessons, are you?
But, hey, if you're okay with being a sniveling wimp, that's not my problem. :bannana:

Art Deco
March 20th, 2005, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Translation: We will take what we want, from whomever we want, by guile if possible, by force if necessary. Manifest Destiny was understood in the context of Divine Providence. Your anti-Christian World View does not give you the insight required to understand Divine Providence.

Posted by Gerald: So, if you and I were to enter into a contractual agreement, and it profitted you to break the stipulations of that contractual agreement, you'd do it? You'd screw me over to advance yourself? Your logic using deduction fails. Your premise, that America is untrustworthy, and I being an American must therefore be untrustworthy does not work.

Posted by Gerald: Remember, all you're doing is looking out for you and yours. If that's the way you want to play, I'm fine with it. Just don't holler foul when the other guy does it to you... America First Deal with it... :FrankiE:

Gerald
March 21st, 2005, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Art Deco
Manifest Destiny was understood in the context of Divine Providence. Your anti-Christian World View does not give you the insight required to understand Divine Providence.Manifest Destiny/Divine Providence: the belief that you are doing God's Work™, and that any action that advances it is acceptable.
Your logic using deduction fails. Your premise, that America is untrustworthy, and I being an American must therefore be untrustworthy does not work.My premise is that human beings are untrustworthy, and that you, being a human being, must therefore be untrustworthy.
America First Deal with it... :FrankiE: Me first, before God, America or anyone else. Deal with it.

Morpheus
March 21st, 2005, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by Frank Ernest

:darwinsm: Even money says you have never read one of those treaties or know the history of them.

:Commie: You lose again.

Morpheus
March 21st, 2005, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Art Deco

Manifest Destiny was understood in the context of Divine Providence. Your anti-Christian World View does not give you the insight required to understand Divine Providence.

America First Deal with it... :FrankiE: This post clarifies your position. Anyone who would buy the lie of manifest destiny would buy the "Bush as God's minister" garbage. 1John 4:1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Frank Ernest
March 22nd, 2005, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by :mock::Morbideus

This post clarifies your position. Anyone who would buy the lie of manifest destiny would buy the "Bush as God's minister" garbage.
:darwinsm: And what part of Manifest Destiny proved to be a lie?
Y'all sure bought into Clinton when he claimed to be "God's Minister." What's your problem now? :confused:

Don't tell me. I know this one. It's because your politics determine your religion. :thumb:

Art Deco
March 22nd, 2005, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Morpheus

This post clarifies your position. Anyone who would buy the lie of manifest destiny would buy the "Bush as God's minister" garbage. You are spiritually blind. The concept of Manifest Destiny, is derived from an understanding of God's Divine Providence. He sets the boundaries of nations.

George Bush is God's minister for this period in our nation's history over these people, since God ordained the principle of government. :angel:

Granite
March 22nd, 2005, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Art Deco

You are spiritually blind. The concept of Manifest Destiny, is derived from an understanding of God's Divine Providence. He sets the boundaries of nations.

George Bush is God's minister for this period in our nation's history over these people, since God ordained the principle of government. :angel:

Anybody notice how this cranky little fascist is starting to use those four words to start every single post?:rolleyes:

Nationalism can be used for much good and just as much evil. We're not the only example of that.

Zakath
March 22nd, 2005, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Art Deco

You are spiritually blind. The concept of Manifest Destiny, is derived from an understanding of God's Divine Providence. He sets the boundaries of nations.

George Bush is God's minister for this period in our nation's history over these people, since God ordained the principle of government. :angel: Just like Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, and Idi Amin were all "God's ministers"...

:think:

Either you have a strange view of deity, or your deity periodically has serious personnel shortages...

:chuckle:

Art Deco
March 22nd, 2005, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

Just like Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, and Idi Amin were all "God's ministers"...

:think:

Either you have a strange view of deity, or your deity periodically has serious personnel shortages...

:chuckle: The people get the kind of government they deserve. If they don't like it overturn the government...We did in 1776.

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 08:15 AM
Not enough people here are angry enough or willing enough to do that.

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by Art Deco

The people get the kind of government they deserve. If they don't like it overturn the government...We did in 1776. And we did it by rebelling against "God's minister", the British monarch, correct?

So, by implication, your view puts the formation of the U.S. as a direct violation of the will of your deity.

:doh:

Talk about a "catch-22" situation.

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 09:03 AM
He's God's minister till you disagree with him, Zak.

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by granite1010

He's God's minister till you disagree with him, Zak.
:doh:

How foolish of me to forget!

BillyBob
March 23rd, 2005, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by granite1010

Not enough people here are angry enough or willing enough to do that.




People are angry, but we are all too busy earning a living and raising our families to seriously consider overthrowing the government. We are still able to earn a good wage and still have a slight semblance of freedom. We tolerate the little changes in our government but remember how much better it was when we were younger. We vote, debate on political forums, throw fire bombs into the opposing parties headquarters, but overthrowing a government that is still tolerable is too time consuming. Who's gonna feed my kids while I'm out shooting Congressmen and blowing up IRS buildings? It's easier to just accept it for what it is, a slowly evolving communist society. Heck, I'll only be alive another 30 years or so if I'm lucky, things won't change that much in 30 years. Why jeapordize what I have? I'll be able to enjoy my final years in relative peace fishing whenever I want or whatever. Why risk that?

I think that is part of the overall plan, slowly, little by little, generation by generation turn this country into a communist state at small enough incriments that hardly anyone notices. Just look how far left the liberals are and they claim to be 'mainstream'!!! The democrat party 40 years ago was Conservative compared to what it is now. Each new generation grows up in a slightly more socialistc environment than the last. Kids today assume that Political Correctness and Hate Crimes are just a normal part of American society. Spread over 100 years, you hardly notice the subtle yearly changes of socialism infecting our society.

Now, if you lived 100 years ago and woke up one morning to our current socialistic culture, you'd grab your gun, rally your neighbors and the game would be on.

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 09:10 AM
Billy, if that's the plan they already won.

BillyBob
March 23rd, 2005, 09:10 AM
Yep.

Morpheus
March 24th, 2005, 04:01 PM
People are angry, but we are all too busy earning a living and raising our families to seriously consider overthrowing the government. We are still able to earn a good wage and still have a slight semblance of freedom. We tolerate the little changes in our government but remember how much better it was when we were younger. We vote, debate on political forums, throw fire bombs into the opposing parties headquarters, but overthrowing a government that is still tolerable is too time consuming. Who's gonna feed my kids while I'm out shooting Congressmen and blowing up IRS buildings? It's easier to just accept it for what it is, a slowly evolving communist society. Heck, I'll only be alive another 30 years or so if I'm lucky, things won't change that much in 30 years. Why jeapordize what I have? I'll be able to enjoy my final years in relative peace fishing whenever I want or whatever. Why risk that?

I think that is part of the overall plan, slowly, little by little, generation by generation turn this country into a communist state at small enough incriments that hardly anyone notices. Just look how far left the liberals are and they claim to be 'mainstream'!!! The democrat party 40 years ago was Conservative compared to what it is now. Each new generation grows up in a slightly more socialistc environment than the last. Kids today assume that Political Correctness and Hate Crimes are just a normal part of American society. Spread over 100 years, you hardly notice the subtle yearly changes of socialism infecting our society.

Now, if you lived 100 years ago and woke up one morning to our current socialistic culture, you'd grab your gun, rally your neighbors and the game would be on.BB, on this you and I seem to agree. The only difference would be that I don't think that communism, liberalism, conservatism, or any other label has anything to do with it. It is all control by wealth. Orwell was right; we were just to complacent to realize it.

Frank Ernest
March 25th, 2005, 05:59 AM
"The really frightening thing about totalitarianism is not that it commits ‘atrocities’ but that it attacks the concept of objective truth: it claims to control the past as well as the future.", George Orwell, As I Please, 4 February 1944

Orwell was describing the eventual outcome of socialism.

Granite
March 25th, 2005, 07:01 AM
"The really frightening thing about totalitarianism is not that it commits ‘atrocities’ but that it attacks the concept of objective truth: it claims to control the past as well as the future.", George Orwell, As I Please, 4 February 1944

Orwell was describing the eventual outcome of socialism.

Or really ANY form of tyranny where reality's decided by the elite.

Frank Ernest
March 26th, 2005, 06:09 AM
Or really ANY form of tyranny where reality's decided by the elite.
And that would be socialism, communism, fascism, etc.

Morpheus
March 26th, 2005, 06:59 AM
And that would be socialism, communism, fascism, etc.
Socialism and communism are economic systems, not forms of government. Your beloved capitalism is also and economic system found in some of the most tyranical governments, since we installed them after ousting several democratically elected, but socialist, leaders.

Frank Ernest
March 26th, 2005, 07:46 AM
Socialism and communism are economic systems, not forms of government. Your beloved capitalism is also and economic system found in some of the most tyranical governments, since we installed them after ousting several democratically elected, but socialist, leaders.
Equivocal :cow: