Matthew misquote?

[God_Is_Truth]

In Matthew 13:35 we read:

35This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
"I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES;
I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."

when i check my concordance it states that he is quoting Psalm 78:2. but if we turn to Psalm 78:2 we read:

2I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old

now at first glance it seems that perhaps "dark sayings of old" could be stretched to say "things hidden since the foundation of the world" but i go on to read verse 3 of Psalm 78 where we see:

3Which we have heard and known,
And our fathers have told us.

verse 3 is describing what the author will be speaking, the "dark sayings of old". here they are clearly stated as "which we have heard and known". that is about as opposite of "hidden since the foundation of the world" as one can get.

so this makes me wonder, is my concordance wrong? is Matthew quoting something else? or did he intentionally change the passage to support something else? or did he just perhaps make a mistake and misread/misquote the passage?

what are your thoughts on this?

*note* all passages are NASB

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

*note* all passages are NASB
Well, there's your problem.:eek:

[ShadowMaid]

Hey GIT, what do you like about the NASB? Just wondering, I have KJV myself. (Sorry for the off topic question. :o )

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Hey GIT, what do you like about the NASB? Just wondering, I have KJV myself. (Sorry for the off topic question. :o )

it's supposed to be one of the most literal translations out there.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Well, there's your problem.:eek:

the other tranlsations don't explain away the problem.

Matthew 13

NIV
35So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.

KJV
35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

NKJV
35that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
"I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."

ESV
35This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet:

"I will open my mouth in parables;
I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.

Psalm 78:2-3

NIV
2 I will open my mouth in parables,

I will utter hidden things, things from of old-

3 what we have heard and known,

what our fathers have told us.

KJV
2I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

3Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.

NKJV
2I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old,
3Which we have heard and known,
And our fathers have told us

ESV

2I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings from of old,
3things that we have heard and known,
that our fathers have told us.

[Lighthouse]

It was a joke.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by lighthouse

It was a joke.

:doh:

hard to tell sometimes.

[Mr. Coffee]

Matt 13.35 is a quote from the Septuagint. Ps. 78.2 in our Bibles is from the Masoretic Text.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/comparisons.html

[Turbo]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

it's supposed to be one of the most literal translations out there. According to whom?

Didn't you used to say that about NIV?

(I despise NIV.)

[Lucky]

Originally posted by ilyatur

Matt 13.35 is a quote from the Septuagint. Ps. 78.2 in our Bibles is from the Masoretic Text.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/comparisons.html
This chart will show how Jesus Christ and the apostles quoted from the Greek Septuagint when they were quoting from the Old Testament. In bibles, the Old Testament is translated from the Masoretic text, from 1000 A.D. The New Testament quotes could not have come from the Masoretic text, because it did not exist at the time the New Testament was written; it would not be translated for another 1000 years! The Septuagint, on the other hand, was translated 285 years before Christ, and this is the text that the writers of the New Testament quoted from!
Interesting.

[SOTK]

Originally posted by Turbo

According to whom?

Didn't you used to say that about NIV?

(I despise NIV.)

Me too. I prefer the New King James Version myself although I like reading the King James Version as well.

I've been told that the NKJV is one of the more accurate translations although I don't have a site or reference to back this up.

I know this is off topic but it would be interesting to find a site or article addressing this issue. Which is the more accurate translation?

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth ... i go on to read verse 3 of Psalm 78 where we see:

3Which we have heard and known,
And our fathers have told us.

verse 3 is describing what the author will be speaking, the "dark sayings of old". here they are clearly stated as "which we have heard and known".

That's a good question, maybe first let's review Psalm 78, it's pretty much a survey of events in Israel's history. But how could this material ever have been obscure, the events were known right after they happened!

So "dark saying" could be saying that the meaning of these events was not fully known, and "our fathers told us" might have referred to them recounting these events, and here in Psalm 78, we have them recounted again, and the events he picks, and the comments he makes on them will help us understand the meaning of what happened better.

Thus Jesus also used familiar illustrations, with the purpose of helping us understand some more of God's intent, hidden meanings in familiar events, such as mustard plants growing from tiny seeds, and wheat and tares and enemies who plot, and the different ways seed may wither, or grow, after being sown on the ground.

Blessings,
Lee

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by ilyatur

Matt 13.35 is a quote from the Septuagint. Ps. 78.2 in our Bibles is from the Masoretic Text.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/comparisons.html

that does clear it up a little bit. but even on that site the problem remains.

it renders the Matthew Passage as such:

Matthew 13:35, "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

and the Psalm as such

Psalms 78:2, "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter dark sayings which have been from the beginning."

however, our problem is that the Matthew passage says it "has been kept secret" whereas the Psalm says they "have been" from the beginning. being kept secret doesn't seem to be the same as having been, especially again when the 3rd verse in Psalm 78 states that it's about that which they knew.

[Mr. Coffee]

Re: Translations

For literary quality, the KJV is obviously peerless, but there's been a lot of growth in scholarship since 1611. I love the KJV, and a lot of the commentary material I read uses it, so I still get to read it every day. For regular Bible reading I use the Holman CSB.

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by ilyatur

Matt 13.35 is a quote from the Septuagint. Ps. 78.2 in our Bibles is from the Masoretic Text.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/comparisons.html

Very interesting!!

[Granite]

Simplest explanation: whoever wrote Matthew got the verse wrong. Mistakes happen.

[On Fire]

Originally posted by SOTK

Me too. I prefer the New King James Version myself although I like reading the King James Version as well.

I've been told that the NKJV is one of the more accurate translations although I don't have a site or reference to back this up.

I know this is off topic but it would be interesting to find a site or article addressing this issue. Which is the more accurate translation? I don't think the most "accurate" or "literal" translation is necessarily a good thing for general reading purposes. Not many people are well versed in the customs and idioms of biblical times.

What's wrong with a scholar who IS familiar with such things giving us a nuanced translation?

[Turbo]

Originally posted by On Fire

What's wrong with a scholar who IS familiar with such things giving us a nuanced translation? As far as I can tell, nothing. The fact that Jesus (and/or the Gospel writers) and Paul freely quote from the Septuagint, a popular Greek translation of the day, is evidence that God isn't all that uptight about translations being perfect (whatever that would mean). At least, He's not as uptight as some Christians.

But sometimes the "scholars" twist the meaning of the idiom, either through honest error, theological bias, or even hostility toward God. For instance, according to NIV and NLT, God thinks it's a good idea for rape victims to marry their attackers. :down:

More info here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=614423#post614423)

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Turbo

According to whom?

Didn't you used to say that about NIV?

(I despise NIV.)

just according to the people i've spoken with about it. i don't recall ever saying that about the NIV.

[God_Is_Truth]

Hi everyone,



That's a good question, maybe first let's review Psalm 78, it's pretty much a survey of events in Israel's history. But how could this material ever have been obscure, the events were known right after they happened!

So "dark saying" could be saying that the meaning of these events was not fully known, and "our fathers told us" might have referred to them recounting these events, and here in Psalm 78, we have them recounted again, and the events he picks, and the comments he makes on them will help us understand the meaning of what happened better.

Thus Jesus also used familiar illustrations, with the purpose of helping us understand some more of God's intent, hidden meanings in familiar events, such as mustard plants growing from tiny seeds, and wheat and tares and enemies who plot, and the different ways seed may wither, or grow, after being sown on the ground.

Blessings,
Lee

an interesting explanation Lee, certainly plausible. however, that still doesn't explain why Matthew misquoted the Psalm. can you think of any reason why he would do that?

[lee_merrill]

Hi God_Is_Truth,

... that still doesn't explain why Matthew misquoted the Psalm. can you think of any reason why he would do that?

Are you including Psalm 78:3 here? If we just consider Psalm 78:2, the statements seem pretty close:

Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old.

Matthew 13:35 I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the word.

So he didn't quote "what our fathers told us," yet the quote would seem to be accurate, since "our fathers told us" could refer to them recounting, and not fully explaining...

Blessings,
Lee

[God_Is_Truth]

Hi God_Is_Truth,



Are you including Psalm 78:3 here? If we just consider Psalm 78:2, the statements seem pretty close:

Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old.

Matthew 13:35 I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the word.

So he didn't quote "what our fathers told us," yet the quote would seem to be accurate, since "our fathers told us" could refer to them recounting, and not fully explaining...

Blessings,
Lee

you really consider "dark sayings of old" to mean roughly the same as "hidden from the foundation of the world"? "hidden" can't mean "recounting" because recounting necessitates it be something already counted before and you can't count something you don't know.

[lee_merrill]

Hi God_Is_Truth,

you really consider "dark sayings of old" to mean roughly the same as "hidden from the foundation of the world"?

These seem to be pretty parallel, to me, though, dark sayings are indeed hidden, and the world is pretty old...

"hidden" can't mean "recounting" because recounting necessitates it be something already counted before and you can't count something you don't know.

Yes, but this still is fine, if some meaning was hidden, though the events may have been told many times, "hidden" and "recounted" may not refer to the same aspect of these events...

Blessings,
Lee