As They Hate Me, They Will Hate You Too

[Free-Agent Smith]

"Pagans" never think they're bigots. They just think they're right. And because they think they're right, they also often think they're the one's being persecuted when the people they would abuse, or others, object to such treatment.

Racial bigots, for example, really believe that they are superior because of their race. They really believe that people of the race that they're scape-goating are inherently stupid, lazy, shiftless, and morally weak, etc. They don't believe that they're being bigots because they don't believe that they "hate" these scape-goats. They can't see their own hatred because they have thoroughly convinced themselves that all their derogatory ideas about these other people are based on the truth "or at least some form of the truth". They can't see that they've made it all up, and that they're unjustly persecuting other people as a result. In fact, a lot of bigots will even convince themselves that they're some sort of martyr, just doing their sad duty as they lynch the errant ******, or burn a witch at the stake, or gun down a train load of Jews. Or in the less extreme cases, they busily work to deny other people their freedom, their livelihood, their protections under the law, and their dignity. Bigots never think they're bigots because they always think they're right, and they don't understand (and don't want to understand) that it's exactly this assumption of their own righteousness that causes them to be bigots in the first place.
I took it upon myself, with artistic exxaggeration, to edit this post to show that the hatred is as easily directed at Christians or any other group of people.
I don't hate any of the non-Christian people here. I will say that I don't agree with your belief systems or perspectives but that is a right I am allowed to voice. By that same right, I am also allowed to not accept it also. Christians are persecuted because we cherish the lives of the innocents like children and because we choose to protect their rights also, whether they have been born or still in the womb.
Christians are persecuted for their system of beliefs and moral because it limits the actions of others, especially when it could result in more harm than good. Christians believe that sexuall immorality can lead to many problems that otherwise could be easily avoided if sex is left between two monogomous adults rather than homosexuals, pedophiles, child molestors and or rapists.
Christians feel the prejudice when they are mocked for showing their love, loyalty and faithfullness to the one true God. Christians have been hated because of those who have choosen to use God as a shield to try and hide their cruel intentions towards others. For example; the Spanish Inquisition slaughtered conservative Christians calling them heretics, the Roman Empire fed Christians to lions for entertainment, some were cut open and their body cavity stuffed with corn and fed to pigs.

Christians are hated because they want to take actions that could prevent possible harm in the future, for example when we support the death penalty. Why would anyone want to endager more lives by letting murderers, rapists, child molesters or terrorists go free?

[PureX]

The thing you completely overlooked, here, is that no one is proposing that you be denied your freedom, your livelihood, your protections under the law, and your dignity simply because you're a Christian. We're all free to be bigots in our minds, in America, but unfortunately a lot of bigots don't stop there. They want their bigotry expressed in our laws and often backed up by violent force.

Do you think religious bigotry against homosexuality should be backed up by the violent force of civil law?

[Delmar]

"As They Hate Me, They Will Hate You Too" The title of the thread says it all.

[billwald]

It builds confidence and ego to think one is actively hated.

[Free-Agent Smith]

The thing you completely overlooked, here, is that no one is proposing that you be denied your freedom, your livelihood, your protections under the law, and your dignity simply because you're a Christian. We're all free to be bigots in our minds, in America, but unfortunately a lot of bigots don't stop there. They want their bigotry expressed in our laws and often backed up by violent force.

Do you think religious bigotry against homosexuality should be backed up by the violent force of civil law?
Why is it against the law in the first place?

Any idea on how we got the ideas on which things to outlaw?

Do you know any atheists that are against homosexuality or any other sexual perversion? Let's not leave non-Christians out of the bigotry.

[Crow]

"As They Hate Me, They Will Hate You Too" The title of the thread says it all.
Yup. Now all that's left to do is to be hated for some of the same reasons. Talk about a tough act to follow.

[Lucky]

I don't hate any of the non-Christian people here.
Is FAS in danger of being nicer than God? :think:

[PureX]

Why is it against the law in the first place?Because the people who wrote those old "blue laws" were bigots. These are the same people who also wrote similar laws against blacks and women voting, and against driving automobiles inside the city limits, and against all sorts of things.
Any idea on how we got the ideas on which things to outlaw?The same place we got the idea that slavery was sanctioned by God, I suppose.
Do you know any atheists that are against homosexuality or any other sexual perversion? Let's not leave non-Christians out of the bigotry.There are all kinds of bigotry among all kinds of people. But that doesn't really make it OK, does it?

You didn't answer my previous question: do you think religious bigotry against homosexuality should be backed up by the violent force of civil law? And I'll add a question: if you do think so, then why wouldn't it be equally reasonable that "Pagan" bigotry against Christians should be backed up by the violent force of civil law, too?

[Free-Agent Smith]

Because the people who wrote those old "blue laws" were bigots. These are the same people who also wrote similar laws against blacks and women voting, and against driving automobiles inside the city limits, and against all sorts of things. What exactly are the "blue laws" ?

The same place we got the idea that slavery was sanctioned by God, I suppose.
There are all kinds of bigotry among all kinds of people. But that doesn't really make it OK, does it?
Everyone is bigoted against something. Intolerance is one of the main definitions of bigotry. I am a bigot because I am intolerant of homosexuality. You are a bigot because you are intolerant Christians.

You didn't answer my previous question: do you think religious bigotry against homosexuality should be backed up by the violent force of civil law? And I'll add a question: if you do think so, then why wouldn't it be equally reasonable that "Pagan" bigotry against Christians should be backed up by the violent force of civil law, too?
As far as "the violent force of civil law", show me how Christians have used it in a violent way. Are you talking about the ones concerning domestic violence?

[PureX]

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition.**2001.

blue laws: (http://www.bartleby.com/65/bl/bluelaws.html)

Legislation regulating public and private conduct, especially laws relating to Sabbath observance. The term was originally applied to the 17th-century laws of the theocratic New Haven colony; they were called “blue laws” after the blue paper on which they were printed. New Haven and other Puritan colonies of New England had rigid laws prohibiting Sabbath breaking, breaches in family discipline, drunkenness, and excesses in dress. Although such legislation had its origins in European Sabbatarian and sumptuary laws, the term “blue laws” is usually applied only to American legislation. With the dissolution of the Puritan theocracies after the American Revolution, blue laws declined; many of them lay forgotten in state statute books only to be revived much later. The growth of the prohibition movement in the 19th cent. and early 20th cent. brought with it other laws regulating private conduct. Many states forbade the sale of cigarettes, and laws prohibited secular amusements as well as all unnecessary work on Sunday; provision was made for strict local censorship of books, plays, films and other means of instruction and entertainment. Although much of this legislation has been softened if not repealed, there are still many areas and communities in the United States, especially those where religious fundamentalism is strong, that retain blue laws. The Supreme Court has upheld Sunday closing laws ruling that such laws do not interfere with the free exercise of religion and do not constitute the establishment of a state religion.

[PureX]

deleted post

[PureX]

Everyone is bigoted against something. Intolerance is one of the main definitions of bigotry. I am a bigot because I am intolerant of homosexuality. You are a bigot because you are intolerant Christians.I'm not intolerant of Christians, I'm intolerant of religious bigotry when it seeks to abuse or oppress other people. I'm also intolerant of racial bigotry, sexual bigotry, and political bigotry under the same conditions. I don't really care if you want to say I'm bigoted against bigots. I think it's a pretty silly claim to make, but if it makes you feel better about yourself, then knock yourself out.
As far as "the violent force of civil law", show me how Christians have used it in a violent way. Are you talking about the ones concerning domestic violence?When Christians seek to outlaw homosexual acts, they are seeking civil violence as a means of enforcing their bigotry against homosexuals. Civil laws are enforced by violence, after all.

[Free-Agent Smith]

Snopes on the Blue Laws (http://www.snopes.com/language/colors/bluelaws.htm)

This is my link.
What about those violence enforced civil laws?

[Lighthouse]

I know I'm hated, and that's just fine by me.

[Granite]

I took it upon myself, with artistic exxaggeration, to edit this post to show that the hatred is as easily directed at Christians or any other group of people.
I don't hate any of the non-Christian people here. I will say that I don't agree with your belief systems or perspectives but that is a right I am allowed to voice. By that same right, I am also allowed to not accept it also. Christians are persecuted because we cherish the lives of the innocents like children and because we choose to protect their rights also, whether they have been born or still in the womb.
Christians are persecuted for their system of beliefs and moral because it limits the actions of others, especially when it could result in more harm than good. Christians believe that sexuall immorality can lead to many problems that otherwise could be easily avoided if sex is left between two monogomous adults rather than homosexuals, pedophiles, child molestors and or rapists.
Christians feel the prejudice when they are mocked for showing their love, loyalty and faithfullness to the one true God. Christians have been hated because of those who have choosen to use God as a shield to try and hide their cruel intentions towards others. For example; the Spanish Inquisition slaughtered conservative Christians calling them heretics, the Roman Empire fed Christians to lions for entertainment, some were cut open and their body cavity stuffed with corn and fed to pigs.

Christians are hated because they want to take actions that could prevent possible harm in the future, for example when we support the death penalty. Why would anyone want to endager more lives by letting murderers, rapists, child molesters or terrorists go free?

Sorry, last time I checked the Spanish Inquisition didn't kill "conservative Christians." Try again.

Smith, I don't hate you or anyone else here, and dismissing criticism as "hate" is hyperbole and inaccurate. If your skin is this thin you need to get out more.

[Zakath]

Snopes on the Blue Laws (http://www.snopes.com/language/colors/bluelaws.htm) So Snopes hasn't found support for the reason Blue Laws were so called...

Perhaps they weren't printed on a specific color paper. What does that mean? You certainly aren't claiming that Blue Laws havn't existed in the US, are you?

Remnants of the "Blue Laws" or "Sabbath laws" were only finally stricken from the Virginia State Code in 2004... http://pf.inc.com/criticalnews/articles/200407/bluelaws.html and, according to A Readers Companion to American History (http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_011100_bluelaws.htm) "About three-fourths of the states still carry on their books laws imposing some kind of Sunday restriction on such activities as retail sales, general labor, liquor sales, boxing, hunting, or barbering, as well as polo, cockfighting, or clam digging."

In West Virginia, where I reside, the "Blue Laws" prohibit purchase of beer or wine between 2 a.m. on Sunday morning (bar closing on Saturday night) and 1 p.m. on Sunday afternoon. Establishments that sell liquor for off-site consumption must either close or lock up the liquor on Sundays.

[Zakath]

...I don't hate any of the non-Christian people here.That's big of you, Smitty. I don't hate you either. :nono:

I will say that I don't agree with your belief systems or perspectives but that is a right I am allowed to voice. By that same right, I am also allowed to not accept it also.Why would you accept a perspective or belief system you didn't agree with? That sounds either weak-willed or disingenuous, to me.

Christians are persecuted because we cherish the lives of the innocents like children and because we choose to protect their rights also, whether they have been born or still in the womb.Aww, stop whining. :doh: You "Christians" live in a country in which thousands of sects of your religion are free to call each other names, condemn each other to hell, picket each other's activities, etc. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they hate you or are actively persecuting you...

Christians are persecuted for their system of beliefs and moral because it limits the actions of others, especially when it could result in more harm than good.When persecution actually exists it's usually for reasons of power. For example, your system of beliefs and morals doesn't negatively impact me in the slightest until you try to mandate it for everyone else by making it into law. As the old saying goes, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Once you injure me or my family, I will oppose you every step of the way until you back down.

Christians believe that sexuall immorality can lead to many problems that otherwise could be easily avoided if sex is left between two monogomous adults rather than homosexuals, pedophiles, child molestors and or rapists. I think that many non-Christaans, myself included, would agree with such a statement. Your problem is that you seek to create a false dichotomy - an "us versus them" demarkation based solely on religious belief. Christians are a minority of the world's population and to, even in hyperbole, propose that they maintain the corner on moral thinking and behavior is simply not supportable by observation of the people around the world.

Christians feel the prejudice when they are mocked for showing their love, loyalty and faithfullness to the one true God.Not by me. Christians only feel prejudice from me when they attempt to force their religion down my throat; as I mentioned above.

Christians have been hated because of those who have choosen to use God as a shield to try and hide their cruel intentions towards others. For example; the Spanish Inquisition slaughtered conservative Christians calling them heretics, the Roman Empire fed Christians to lions for entertainment, some were cut open and their body cavity stuffed with corn and fed to pigs. The Spanish Inquisition slaughtered hundreds of people, many who were not Christian. People were dying in the arenas before the founders of Christianity were born. And let's not forget that one conservative Protestant country, Switzerland, exiled hundreds and executed up to 40 Anabaptists during the mid- to late-16th century. Protestant courts also stripped Anabaptists of their property, declared children of Anabaptist marriages illegitimate and confiscating the estates. By the end of the 17th century Christians not practicing state-approved religion risked being flogged, branded, sentenced as galley slaves, and if too old to row, imprisoned for life. (Excerpts from the Mennonite Encyclopedia) (http://www.horseshoe.cc/pennadutch/places/switzerland/cantons/bern/bern.htm)

Christians are hated because they want to take actions that could prevent possible harm in the future, for example when we support the death penalty. Why would anyone want to endager more lives by letting murderers, rapists, child molesters or terrorists go free?I don't know. Ask your fellow pacifist Christians who oppose the death penalty... :think:

- Orthodox Church Leader (http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ethics/seraphim_capital_punishment.htm)

- United Church of Christ (http://www.nodp.org/ma/uccma.html)

- United Methodist Church (http://www.umc.org/interior_print.asp?ptid=4&mid=1071&pagemode=print)

and two very conservative Christian groups,

- Society of Friends (Quakers) (http://www.qis.net/~daruma/cap-pun2.html)

- Mennonite (http://www.cmcrosedale.org/publications/beacon/feb99_1.htm)

[PureX]

I will say that I don't agree with your belief systems or perspectives but that is a right I am allowed to voice. By that same right, I am also allowed to not accept it also. ... Christians are persecuted for their system of beliefs and moral because it limits the actions of others, That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Christians, like any other Americans, are allowed to "not accept" the belief systems that they don't agree with, yet they seek to force their own belief systems on everyone else. And then they shout "persecutuion!" when the people they actively seek to oppress try to claim their own right to "not accept" these attemps to "limit the actions of others" (that's called oppression).
Christians believe that sexuall immorality can lead to many problems that otherwise could be easily avoided if sex is left between two monogomous adults rather than homosexuals, pedophiles, child molestors and or rapists.That's all well and good. And Christians are free to follow those beliefs in their own lives all they wish. The problem is that they don't stop there. They want to force everyone else to follow those beliefs, too. And that's when they become aggressors, would-be oppressors, and the enemies of everyone else's freedom.
Christians feel the prejudice when they are mocked for showing their love, loyalty and faithfullness to the one true God.They are mocked because they call bigotry and the desire to oppress other people "love, loyalty and faithfullness to the one true God". And it's not "prejudice" that causes people to fight against Christians who seek to abuse and oppress them in the name of their God and religion. It's called defending themselves.

[Granite]

Making yourself a public target, spouting your own version of virtue, and insisting you have a relationship with God Himself, will guarantee SOMEONE out there won't agree with you.

Yet Christians scream foul the minute somebody takes them to task.

Convenient.

[Nineveh]

"As They Hate Me, They Will Hate You Too" The title of the thread says it all.

Looks that way :)

[beanieboy]

The verse says, "As they hate me, they will hate you, too," meaning, that in the manner that they hated Christ, they will hate you.

Christ was hated. He was hated by the Pharisees because he challenged those who claimed to know God and speak on God's authority. Christ was a bit of a heretic, saying, "you have read...but I tell you..."

He was hated because he told people that the first shall be last and the last shall be first. Those in power would have none in heaven, while those with no power would be able to rule heaven. People in power didn't like that.

He told parables about the seed choked by the rocks of wealth and greed, told how difficult it is for the wealthy man to enter heaven, but said, 'blessed are the poor." The wealthy people didn't like being challenged, and they had power that he threatened.

Let me use a modern day example.

President Carter has been involved with Habitat for Humanity, an organization that calls on volunteers to help build houses and provided housing for people that need it.

Conservative and self proclaimed moralist and Christian Rusch LImbaugh mockingly calls him "The Carpenter President."

Ironically, Jesus was a Carpenter as well. Yet, Rusch hates Carter, who is following in the way of Christ in loving his fellow man, and being seen as a fool for doing good deeds without gaining wealth from it.

If you are hated for that, then you should feel elated.

Hitler is hated. That doesn't make him close to Jesus.
Martin Luther King, Jr. did good, but was persecuted and eventually killed for justice sake, similar to Christ.

[Nineveh]

He was hated because people generally love their sin and hate God.

[Granite]

He violated the status quo and stirred the pot. That's enough to make sure you'll draw unwanted attention.

[beanieboy]

Why did people hate Martin Luther King, Jr.?

Did the people releasing dogs and water hoses on the people peacefully protesting "love their sin"?
Those people claimed to love Jesus. So what gives?

[beanieboy]

Let me point out that Jesus wasn't hated by everyone.

He wasn't hated by his disciples.
People were flocking around to see him.
They were laying palm branches done for him.
Children wanted to go sit on his lap.

He was loved as well.

I simply think there is danger to try to get others to hate you as a way of being closer to God.

The verse, I believe, is that one should do the will of God, and understand that many will hate you for it, just as Christ was hated for taking away the power of those who wanted to keep others oppressed.

That's why Carter is mocked by Limbaugh - not for what he's doing wrong, but for what he's doing right.

[Zakath]

Why did people hate Martin Luther King, Jr.?

Did the people releasing dogs and water hoses on the people peacefully protesting "love their sin"?
Those people claimed to love Jesus. So what gives?
I lived through that time. IIRC, both sides claimed to "love Jesus".

[Granite]

Why did people hate Martin Luther King, Jr.?

Did the people releasing dogs and water hoses on the people peacefully protesting "love their sin"?
Those people claimed to love Jesus. So what gives?

They must not have been the Real Christians, beanie.:rolleyes:

[beanieboy]

I lived through that time. IIRC, both sides claimed to "love Jesus".

Ironic that both sides claimed to love Jesus, yet were at odds with each other.

[cattyfan]

The verse says, "As they hate me, they will hate you, too," meaning, that in the manner that they hated Christ, they will hate you.

Christ was hated. He was hated by the Pharisees because he challenged those who claimed to know God and speak on God's authority. Christ was a bit of a heretic, saying, "you have read...but I tell you..."

He was hated because he told people that the first shall be last and the last shall be first. Those in power would have none in heaven, while those with no power would be able to rule heaven. People in power didn't like that.

He told parables about the seed choked by the rocks of wealth and greed, told how difficult it is for the wealthy man to enter heaven, but said, 'blessed are the poor." The wealthy people didn't like being challenged, and they had power that he threatened.

Let me use a modern day example.

President Carter has been involved with Habitat for Humanity, an organization that calls on volunteers to help build houses and provided housing for people that need it.

Conservative and self proclaimed moralist and Christian Rusch LImbaugh mockingly calls him "The Carpenter President."

Ironically, Jesus was a Carpenter as well. Yet, Rusch hates Carter, who is following in the way of Christ in loving his fellow man, and being seen as a fool for doing good deeds without gaining wealth from it.

If you are hated for that, then you should feel elated.

Hitler is hated. That doesn't make him close to Jesus.
Martin Luther King, Jr. did good, but was persecuted and eventually killed for justice sake, similar to Christ.

Let me get this straight...you're actually trying to compare Carter and King to Christ????
What are you smokin'?

First, Rush doesn't make fun of Carter because Carter is doing chartiy work. Rush makes fun of Carter for a myriad of reasons, but they are all related to politics.

The Hitler thing you threw in was a non sequitur...

As for MLK, you state he was killed for justice, and claim killing Jesus was also for justice. There was nothing "just" about either man's death. And make no mistake: MLK may have done some important things, but he is no Christ. Both men were killed for politics, not justice.

And don't try to diminish Jesus by lumping men like Carter and King into some category with him. It's more than insulting.

[PureX]

cattyfan, nice avatar!

[Aimiel]

Being loved by the world is to be at enmity with The Lord. God is opposed to the proud. Those who are still in the world are lost, and they hate The Truth. Jesus is The Embodiment of All Truth. The Lord's Spirit inside of a believer is what causes an un-believer to hate him, and this often occurs before either one of them even opens their mouth.

[cattyfan]

cattyfan, nice avatar!
thanks! It's from the front of an Andreas Vollenweider CD.

[Free-Agent Smith]

Sorry, last time I checked the Spanish Inquisition didn't kill "conservative Christians." Try again.

Smith, I don't hate you or anyone else here, and dismissing criticism as "hate" is hyperbole and inaccurate. If your skin is this thin you need to get out more.
Maybe you should check on who some of those people were that were targeted by the Inquisition.

[Free-Agent Smith]

That's big of you, Smitty. I don't hate you either. :nono:

Why would you accept a perspective or belief system you didn't agree with? That sounds either weak-willed or disingenuous, to me.

Aww, stop whining. :doh: You "Christians" live in a country in which thousands of sects of your religion are free to call each other names, condemn each other to hell, picket each other's activities, etc. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they hate you or are actively persecuting you...

When persecution actually exists it's usually for reasons of power. For example, your system of beliefs and morals doesn't negatively impact me in the slightest until you try to mandate it for everyone else by making it into law. As the old saying goes, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Once you injure me or my family, I will oppose you every step of the way until you back down.

I think that many non-Christaans, myself included, would agree with such a statement. Your problem is that you seek to create a false dichotomy - an "us versus them" demarkation based solely on religious belief. Christians are a minority of the world's population and to, even in hyperbole, propose that they maintain the corner on moral thinking and behavior is simply not supportable by observation of the people around the world.

Not by me. Christians only feel prejudice from me when they attempt to force their religion down my throat; as I mentioned above.

The Spanish Inquisition slaughtered hundreds of people, many who were not Christian. People were dying in the arenas before the founders of Christianity were born. And let's not forget that one conservative Protestant country, Switzerland, exiled hundreds and executed up to 40 Anabaptists during the mid- to late-16th century. Protestant courts also stripped Anabaptists of their property, declared children of Anabaptist marriages illegitimate and confiscating the estates. By the end of the 17th century Christians not practicing state-approved religion risked being flogged, branded, sentenced as galley slaves, and if too old to row, imprisoned for life. (Excerpts from the Mennonite Encyclopedia) (http://www.horseshoe.cc/pennadutch/places/switzerland/cantons/bern/bern.htm)

I don't know. Ask your fellow pacifist Christians who oppose the death penalty... :think:

- Orthodox Church Leader (http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ethics/seraphim_capital_punishment.htm)

- United Church of Christ (http://www.nodp.org/ma/uccma.html)

- United Methodist Church (http://www.umc.org/interior_print.asp?ptid=4&mid=1071&pagemode=print)

and two very conservative Christian groups,

- Society of Friends (Quakers) (http://www.qis.net/~daruma/cap-pun2.html)

- Mennonite (http://www.cmcrosedale.org/publications/beacon/feb99_1.htm)

You call them Christian. They call themselves Christian. As a whole I won't because as a whole I don't believe they are.

[Free-Agent Smith]

Dang, look at the pagans coming to corect me.

[Granite]

Maybe you should check on who some of those people were that were targeted by the Inquisition.

You must be referring to the pro-life medieval Republicans opposed to high taxes and government spending.:rolleyes:

The Spanish Inquisition targeted Jews, Muslims, Protestants, and anyone else who crossed the Inquisition. I don't know what point you're trying to make here (although my point would be this: give the church political authority and it will ALWAYS abuse it; history tells us this without exception).

I don't understand why criticism of Christianity automatically becomes "hatred" in your book. Or: where does "criticism" stop and "hatred" begin, in your opinion? How long can somebody critique Christianity until they "hate" it, in your book?

[beanieboy]

Let me get this straight...you're actually trying to compare Carter and King to Christ????
What are you smokin'?

First, Rush doesn't make fun of Carter because Carter is doing chartiy work. Rush makes fun of Carter for a myriad of reasons, but they are all related to politics.

The Hitler thing you threw in was a non sequitur...

As for MLK, you state he was killed for justice, and claim killing Jesus was also for justice. There was nothing "just" about either man's death. And make no mistake: MLK may have done some important things, but he is no Christ. Both men were killed for politics, not justice.

And don't try to diminish Jesus by lumping men like Carter and King into some category with him. It's more than insulting.

I didn't claim that MLK was Jesus.
I said that MLK died to help free people. He died because he stood up for his beliefs. He died for selfless reasons.
The bible says, "There is no greater love than one who gives his life for another."
King knew that if he fought for the rights of African Americans, he ran the chance of getting killed. But he did it anyway, because it was the right thing to do.

He behaved like Christ. He was not CHRIST. He behaved Christ-like.

As Christ commanded.

I point it out, and you get angry.

odd.

[Free-Agent Smith]

You must be referring to the pro-life medieval Republicans opposed to high taxes and government spending.:rolleyes:

The Spanish Inquisition targeted Jews, Muslims, Protestants, and anyone else who crossed the Inquisition. I don't know what point you're trying to make here (although my point would be this: give the church political authority and it will ALWAYS abuse it; history tells us this without exception).

I don't understand why criticism of Christianity automatically becomes "hatred" in your book. Or: where does "criticism" stop and "hatred" begin, in your opinion? How long can somebody critique Christianity until they "hate" it, in your book?

I don't understand why criticism of pagasnism automatically becomes "hatred" to so many people. Or: where does "criticism" stop and "hatred" begin, in your opinion? How long can Christians be judgemental, according to their beliefs, until they "hate" it, according to everyone else's opinion??

[Granite]

I don't understand why criticism of pagasnism automatically becomes "hatred" to so many people. Or: where does "criticism" stop and "hatred" begin, in your opinion? How long can Christians be judgemental, according to their beliefs, until they "hate" it, according to everyone else's opinion??

Smith, I'm asking you a question. I would hope that you had the courtesy to answer it, but unfortunately it doesn't look like you're interested in having a discussion here. That's your problem, not mine.

You people are incapable of having a back and forth debate the longer a discussion goes on; at some point, you just throw up the wall and refuse to act like adults. Instead, you just lock and dig your heels in.

[Free-Agent Smith]

I didn't claim that MLK was Jesus.
I said that MLK died to help free people. He died because he stood up for his beliefs. He died for selfless reasons.
The bible says, "There is no greater love than one who gives his life for another."
King knew that if he fought for the rights of African Americans, he ran the chance of getting killed. But he did it anyway, because it was the right thing to do.

He behaved like Christ. He was not CHRIST. He behaved Christ-like.

As Christ commanded.

I point it out, and you get angry.

odd.
I don't care what you point out. Get back in your closet. This isn't about people like Hitler or King.

[Zakath]

You call them Christian. They call themselves Christian. As a whole I won't because as a whole I don't believe they are.
Sounds like "No True Scotsman" being applied to whomever doesn't agree with your position.

It's always fascinated me how rapidly you people draw your lines in the sand to say "here's Christanity" and "there's not", with each of 33,000+ sects drawing differing lines and you think you're somehow credible.

:darwinsm:

[Zakath]

Dang, look at the pagans coming to corect me.That's "correct"...
:chuckle:

[beanieboy]

Let me get this straight...you're actually trying to compare Carter and King to Christ????
What are you smokin'?

First, Rush doesn't make fun of Carter because Carter is doing chartiy work. Rush makes fun of Carter for a myriad of reasons, but they are all related to politics.
.

If this is true, for what political reason would Rush refer to Carter over and over as the "Carpenter President", and do so mockingly?

[beanieboy]

I don't care what you point out. Get back in your closet. This isn't about people like Hitler or King.

(Sigh) I'll type slower.

Simply because one is hated does not mean that they are being Christlike, and walking closely with God.
I used two people who were "hated". The difference is that one was hated for his attrocities, the other for the good he did and the power he took away from the oppressors.

So, simply saying that people hate you is an indicator of nothing.

Being mocked for the persecuted for trying to speak truth or do good is something that you simply have to expect.

[Granite]

Sounds like "No True Scotsman" being applied to whomever doesn't agree with your position.

It's always fascinated me how rapidly you people draw your lines in the sand to say "here's Christanity" and "there's not", with each of 33,000+ sects drawing differing lines and you think you're somehow credible.

:darwinsm:

Everybody's got their own personal Jesus, guided by the same Holy Spirit...

[Free-Agent Smith]

Sounds like "No True Scotsman" being applied to whomever doesn't agree with your position.

It's always fascinated me how rapidly you people draw your lines in the sand to say "here's Christanity" and "there's not", with each of 33,000+ sects drawing differing lines and you think you're somehow credible.

:darwinsm:
You call them Christian. They call themselves Christian. As a whole I won't because as a whole I don't believe they are. It is my opinion. I just don't want mixed in with their idea of Christianity or yours for that matter. I get the idea that anyone could say they believe and you would believe them.

[beanieboy]

Agent - what is your version of Christianity?
Can you compare and contrast?

[Zakath]

... I get the idea that anyone could say they believe and you would believe them.I believe you when you say you are a Christian... ;)

[Granite]

Kinda reminds me of that wag's remark: "Just remember, you're unique. Like everybody else."

[Free-Agent Smith]

Agent - what is your version of Christianity?
Can you compare and contrast?
I could but I won't. I don't see where it would do any good to explain it to you.

[beanieboy]

I believe someone when they say they are Christian.
Even they tell me, "we aren't perfect, just forgiven."

So, I take their word for it.

[Zakath]

I could but I won't. I don't see where it would do any good to explaing it to you.
Rather disingenuous dodge, don't you think? :rolleyes:

[Free-Agent Smith]

I believe you when you say you are a Christian... ;)
:shocked: Suprise.

[Free-Agent Smith]

Rather disingenuous dodge, don't you think? :rolleyes:
Not anymore than thinking that all denominations have a goof foothold in Christianity.

[Zakath]

Not anymore than thinking that all denominations have a goof foothold in Christianity.You're not upset that I give equal credence to any one of the other 33,000+ sects and whichever one you claim as your own, are you?

As far as I'm concerned you're all equal in one sense...

... your belief in deity is all equally incorrect.

[Nineveh]

"... your belief in deity is all equally incorrect.", said the apostate....

[Free-Agent Smith]

You're not upset that I give equal credence to any one of the other 33,000+ sects and whichever one you claim as your own, are you?

As far as I'm concerned you're all equal in one sense...

... your belief in deity is all equally incorrect.
It doesn't upset me. I expect that from you.

[Zakath]

"... your belief in deity is all equally incorrect.", said the apostate....Well, I shouldn't expect someone enmeshed in his or her delusional state to admit it now, would I? :rolleyes:

[Zakath]

It doesn't upset me. I expect that from you.That's nice. At least I'm consistent. :D

[Nineveh]

Well, I shouldn't expect someone enmeshed in his or her delusional state to admit it now, would I? :rolleyes:

Same back at'cha :)

Would you like a soda? :)

[Zakath]

Same back at'cha :)ditto

Would you like a soda? :)No, would you like some of the Rednecks' lemonade? :D

[beanieboy]

I think that I'm beginning to understand why people cling so much to being hated.
It's easy to be hated. You do so by hurling insult, being selfish, abusive, accusatory, and any number of bad things.

To be loved is difficult. You have to give without expecting return, hold your tongue, speak kindness in the face of evil. It's very difficult.

But one can justify being hated by claiming it to be of God. Even Satan uses the bible to twist it to his own purpose.

It seems a very lonely way to live.
I believe there is some difficulty in trying to be kind, and gentle, and selfless, just as it is difficult to get to the gym 3 times a week. But the alternative (to sit and eat cheetohs watching Maury and saying how bad the world is) isn't a very good way to live.

Seems better that one should rejoice and be exceedingly glad, and if you aren't, you should explore what needs to change. Easier isn't necessarily better.

Peace

[Free-Agent Smith]

That's nice. At least I'm consistent. :D
Consistently pagan. :) or atheist, apostate or whatever.

[Zakath]

Consistently pagan. :) or atheist, apostate or whatever.Consistently correct and "practically perfect in every way".

Mary Poppins stole it from me... ;)

[Granite]

Not anymore than thinking that all denominations have a goof foothold in Christianity.

Freudian slip, anyone?

[Gerald]

You call them Christian. They call themselves Christian. As a whole I won't because as a whole I don't believe they are.In your opinion, what percentage of those who call themselves Christian actually are Christian? Most? Many? Some? Few? Very Few?

I know you have an opinion on the matter.

[cattyfan]

I didn't claim that MLK was Jesus.
I said that MLK died to help free people. He died because he stood up for his beliefs. He died for selfless reasons.
The bible says, "There is no greater love than one who gives his life for another."
King knew that if he fought for the rights of African Americans, he ran the chance of getting killed. But he did it anyway, because it was the right thing to do.

He behaved like Christ. He was not CHRIST. He behaved Christ-like.

As Christ commanded.

I point it out, and you get angry.

odd.

Sweetie, I'm not angry. I was laughing at your ignorance and arrogance.

No one is in the same category as Christ, even if they, for five minutes, exhibit a Christ-like characteristic now and then. And in summary what you said was, "MLK was killed for justice, and Jesus was also killed for justice." And I state, " There was nothing "just" about either man's death."

Let's see...dies at quick death with a bullet while fighting for freedom for a group of people....dies a grueling, drawn-out death during unbearable torture while carrying the weight of all of mankind's sins to set all people free....hmmmm...a moment in time versus at eternity....

Same category? I don't think so.

[Granite]

I don't think beanie said he was in the same category...maybe a not-perfect analogy though.

[cattyfan]

I don't think beanie said he was in the same category...maybe a not-perfect analogy though.

let's take a look:

President Carter has been involved with Habitat for Humanity, an organization that calls on volunteers to help build houses and provided housing for people that need it.

Conservative and self proclaimed moralist and Christian Rusch LImbaugh mockingly calls him "The Carpenter President."

Ironically, Jesus was a Carpenter as well. Yet, Rusch hates Carter, who is following in the way of Christ in loving his fellow man, and being seen as a fool for doing good deeds without gaining wealth from it.

If you are hated for that, then you should feel elated.

Hitler is hated. That doesn't make him close to Jesus.
Martin Luther King, Jr. did good, but was persecuted and eventually killed for justice sake, similar to Christ.



puts Carter in same class as Christ; charcterizes both as carpenters and "doing good deeds" (which is a laughable understatement when speaking of Jesus)

Puts MLK in same class with Christ; calls him "similar to Jesus"

If that's not putting 'em all in the same category, what is?

[Free-Agent Smith]

Freudian slip, anyone?
Spelling error. Should have read "good" instead.

[beanieboy]

Sweetie, I'm not angry. I was laughing at your ignorance and arrogance.

No one is in the same category as Christ, even if they, for five minutes, exhibit a Christ-like characteristic now and then. And in summary what you said was, "MLK was killed for justice, and Jesus was also killed for justice." And I state, " There was nothing "just" about either man's death."

Let's see...dies at quick death with a bullet while fighting for freedom for a group of people....dies a grueling, drawn-out death during unbearable torture while carrying the weight of all of mankind's sins to set all people free....hmmmm...a moment in time versus at eternity....

Same category? I don't think so.

So, what MLK did was not in keeping with what Christ taught?
Giving your life to lead people to freedom was not being an active christian?
MLK is not worshipped, yet he was a reverend, and spoke out against in justice, even when threatened with death. That wasn't what Christ wanted?

Do I say that MLK was the son of God, or that he died for our sins?
Or did I say that MLK was hated because he worshipped God, and so, lived a Christ-like life, and that threatened the powers that be?
The verse, "as they hated me, so will you be hated" applies here.

You, Catty, even appear to be angry when I simply suggest that MLK lived a Christ-like life, accusing me of suggesting that MLK was Christ.

You sound angry at MLK.

(I don't know anyone who prays to MLK, MLK never claimed to take away the sins of the world, etc., nor did I suggest it. I'm sorry if there is some confusion. I'm simply suggesting that, "as they hated Jesus, so will they hate you, such as, MLK.")

Is that more clear?

[Zakath]

And I state, " There was nothing "just" about either man's death."

...dies a grueling, drawn-out death during unbearable torture while carrying the weight of all of mankind's sins to set all people free....hmmmm...a moment in time versus at eternity....Christian dogma teaches that Jesus was killed in time, not in eternity. The crucifixion had specific beginning and a specific ending. Otherwise the resurrection makes no sense.

Plain and simple, Jesus was a human sacrifice to fulfill alleged justice and blood requirement of YHWH.

Unfortunately, the real world does not bear out the reality of the theology...

[beanieboy]

Part of what Catty suggests is that MLK's death meant less because it was fast and quick, and not tortuous.

To me, death is death. Giving one's life is giving one's life.
But after The Passion, it seems that Christ giving his life wasn't enough, but that he had to give his life AND be tortured, and some suggest that was a requirement of God.

I have never seen evidence of God saying to take your best lamb, spit on it, swear at it, beat it, and then kill it slowly.
The bible says that there is no greater love than one who gives their life for another.

According to Catty, it depends on how much it hurt.

While I argued that MLK and Christ were killed fighting for Justice (MLK for African Americans to be treated with equality, Jesus to help all people know the true love of God and released from the oppression of the Pharisees, and of sin itself) they were not killed for "just" reasons.

They were killed fighting FOR justice.
When read calmly, it's pretty clear.

[Zakath]

Following catty's logic, Paul's martyrdom was not as efficacious than Peter's.

[Granite]

Following catty's logic, Paul's martyrdom was not as efficacious than Peter's.

:think:

Mmmmm. This could turn into a contest. Mostly Heinous Martyrdom.

[Lighthouse]

I think that I'm beginning to understand why people cling so much to being hated.
It's easy to be hated. You do so by hurling insult, being selfish, abusive, accusatory, and any number of bad things.

To be loved is difficult. You have to give without expecting return, hold your tongue, speak kindness in the face of evil. It's very difficult.

But one can justify being hated by claiming it to be of God. Even Satan uses the bible to twist it to his own purpose.

It seems a very lonely way to live.
I believe there is some difficulty in trying to be kind, and gentle, and selfless, just as it is difficult to get to the gym 3 times a week. But the alternative (to sit and eat cheetohs watching Maury and saying how bad the world is) isn't a very good way to live.

Seems better that one should rejoice and be exceedingly glad, and if you aren't, you should explore what needs to change. Easier isn't necessarily better.

Peace
Who said I wasn't exceedingly glad?:confused: I rejoice in all. And count everything joy, for the sake of Christ. For His life is abundant life. And there is no greater joy, than to live in that life. I feel sorry for you. All you know is death and sadness. So much that you've convinced yourself that you're happy. But you have to keep telling yourself that, to keep tje lie alive. But it will come crashing down around you, one of these days. I hope it happens before your physical life does, so that you may come to the end of yourself, and truly find Christ, and the love, joy and peace He has to offer.:cheers:

[cattyfan]

always nice to be purposely misinterpreted.