Did Jesus "fulfill" or "magnify" the Law?

[Ya'nar#1]

Greetings, Everyone!

Many Christians today believe that Jesus did away with the Law upon His death at Calvery. That He “nailed the law to the cross.” Well, let’s see what Jesus had to say:

MATTHEW 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Because of its seemingly ambiguous meaning, the word FULFIL in this text has come into dispute among various Christians. Because so many believe Christ did away with the Law at the cross, a great many people are substituting DO AWAY WITH THE LAW for the word FULFIL.

So if they are correct, then lets read the verse making this substitution and see how it sounds:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but TO DO AWAY WITH THE LAW.

Hm-m-m . . . See the problem?

Now lets try our experiment elsewhere in scripture. Using again the words DO AWAY WITH in place of FULFIL, we read:

MATT. 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us TO DO AWAY WITH all righteousness.

Plainly, this substitution for the word FULFIL is absurd. No right-thinking Christian could believe Jesus would tell anyone He wished to do away with all righteousness. And yet, when we use DO AWAY WITH in place of FULFIL, as some would have us to understand the meaning of fulfil, this is precisely what we get! An absurd definition that makes no sense.

HEBREWS 8:10 says
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord. I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts . . .

God talked about this New Covenant in the Old Testament:

JEREMIAH 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel . . .

This New Covenant was God putting His law of love into our hearts and minds.

Here is another example, substituting DO AWAY WITH for fulfill:

MATTHEW 5:18
For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till ALL BE DONE AWAY WITH.

Okay. So it doesn’t seem reasonable from these examples that DO AWAY WITH is a correct substitution for the word FULFILL.

So what does inspiration mean for us to understand by the word FULFIL? My study of these scriptures leads me to conclude that MAGNIFY is a much more accurate substitute. That rather than ‘doing away with’ the law, Jesus MAGNIFIED the law with His coming. Actually, it is predicted in Isaiah:

ISAIAH 42:21
The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness sake; He will MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honorable.

HE WILL MAGNIFY THE LAW, AND MAKE IT HONORABLE. Actually, this entire section in Isaiah is talking about Christ’s mission here on earth. And didn’t Jesus magnify the law when He said,

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill . . . But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment . . . Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” MATT 5: 21, 22, 27, 28

Is not Jesus ‘magnifying the law’ here, by both clarifying and amplifying on the law, as given to Moses at Sinai? And when King David sang, “O Lord: TEACH ME THY STATUTES. With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee” (Ps. 119: 12, 10, 11), isn’t David declaring that there are more aspects for us to comprehend about the Moral Law of God than we understand in the 10 commandments alone. The 10 commandments are a beginning. But when we consider how these 10 laws branch out to encompass so many varied aspects in our lives, and how breaking these laws can and does put us in jeopardy with God because it is sinning (and sin separates us from God—just as it did Jesus in the Gethsemane), we begin to get a picture of what King David was singing so eloquently about! “O let me not wander from thy commandments. Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.”

And how does Christ “magnify” the law?

Christ ‘magnifies the law’ by His perfect life of obedience to God’s laws, thus allowing the law to point out our great need of Him and his redeeming work. We cannot be saved unless we have sorrow for sin, can we? And how can we realize our sinful condition and our great need of Him, without the law of God to point that out to us?

Hear again the message according to Paul, who is often quoted in supposed support of a gospel that would set aside obedience to God’s will expressed in the Ten Commandments. At the beginning of his letter to the Romans, that powerful exposition of Christianity that sparked the Reformation, we find this: “Through him (Christ) and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to THE OBEDIENCE THAT COMES FROM FAITH” (Romans 1:5, NIV).

So, in Paul’s own words he is saying that it takes FAITH to be obedient; the greater the faith, the greater the obedience.

Jesus was “obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” (Phil. 2:8) Many Christians claim Paul spoke of doing away with the law. But there is no such indication from scripture. If they truely believe that, then I suggest that perhaps they misunderstand what they are reading. Yes, very frequently Paul spoke against law as a means of salvation. And on that point all Christians can agree. But, when you read everything Paul has said on the subject of law, nowhere do you find evidence of Paul testifying that the Moral law of God has been done away with. To make such a claim would be absurd. One cannot justly say that God has now declared killing or adultery to be legal, or that Jesus’ death has now provided freedom for everyone to worship whatever god they wish, and that idol worship is okay, or that you can go ahead and steal to your selfish heart’s content! Sure, you do have the freedom to do these things—and you also have the freedom to suffer the consequences of your sin.

It is the grace of God that gives us the power to obey God’s laws, because it is His grace which changes our hearts. Grace is the power to overcome sin; grace should not be used to excuse sin.

Actually, what Jesus nailed to the cross was law as a means of salvation. Law reveals sin. Romans 3:20. Law cannot forgive sin, nor can law provide any power to overcome sin. And the law wasn’t designed for these purposes. There is no righteousness to be found for the Christian in keeping the law apart from the grace of God. But the Christian does not look for salvation legalistically, as if he could be saved by his own works of obedience.

Concerning doing away with the law, Paul says, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid. Yea, we ESTABLISH THE LAW.” (Romans 3:31)

This doesn’t sound to me like Paul was advocating doing away with the moral law.

On the other hand, the devil wants very much for us NOT to be reminded of our sin, and our desperate need of a Saviour. It’s the devil’s purpose to do away with the law of God, as it has been from the beginning in the Garden of Eden.

So now, if we substitute MAGNIFY in place of FULFIL, let’s see what we get:

MATTHEW 5:17, 18
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to MAGNIFY the law. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be MAGNIFIED.

Sounds more accurate, doesn’t it!

Ask yourself, would Jesus do away with the very thing that convicts us of our need of Him?

You may say, Well yes, I keep most of the laws. But the Sabbath is a Jewish law, not meant for Christian’s to keep . . .

Oh really?

Didn’t Jesus keep the Sabbath?

As Christian’s, isn’t it our duty to obey Jesus and to do as He did?

He is our Example, after all.

When in doubt, always do as Jesus did! That’s my motto. Can you imagine arriving at heavens gate and having God bar your way with the explanation, You can’t enter heaven because you did as Jesus did and worshipped me on My Sabbath—

Besides which, the seventh day rest was first instituted by God in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:2, 3). It was meant for all mankind—not just the Jews. The seventh day Sabbath rest is a memorial to God of His creative, redeeming power. When Adam and Eve left Eden, they took with them two institutions: (1) marriage and, (2) the seventh day rest, or Sabbath, as it was later called in Moses’ day. We know this by the inspired comment in Genesis 26:5:

“Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

You want to know why God blessed Abraham? Here it is! Because Abraham FIRST honored God by keeping His statutes, commandments, and laws.

Adam and Eve did not live in the Garden of Eden as lawless people. While, because of their perfect, sinless condition they may not have needed to have God’s laws spelled out for them as did the people in Moses’ day, Adam and Eve possessed a knowledge of God’s laws. Remember, they were able to speak with God face to face. If this were not so, then how could the above scriptural text be true about God’s comments concerning Abraham? The knowledge of God’s laws they took with them from the Garden when they left, and handed them down from generation to generation, to Abraham.

Jesus gave us the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” John 1:1, 3

Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15

So the ‘commandments’ Jesus refers to here are not only those that He gave while He spent time here on earth—but also the commandments He gave in the Old Testament!

May God Bless You All!

--Ya'nar :Princess: :wave:

[keypurr]

I agree my friend. Jesus did show that it is his grace that is needed to open the door. But the measure of grace given will be measured by the Law.

[Ages]

But the scripture also says this......,Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ...... and also this

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified ...
and again
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin
So whereby shall we attain to righteousness?
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you .
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
If you want salvation, you can't look for what you can do my friend, only what God has already done for you.

[Lighthouse]

Grace is not measured according to the law! Romans 5:20-21

[Timothy]

...Many Christians today believe that Jesus did away with the Law upon His death at Calvery. That He “nailed the law to the cross.” Well, let’s see what Jesus had to say...

I believe there may be a flaw is in your opening premise. Did Christ do away with the law? The answer is both "yes" and "no," depending on the context or position.

--

With the cross, Christ did away with the law, abolished the law, and ended the law in respect to us. We do not have to keep or fulfill the law in regards to salvation, to obtain righteousness, etc. For example:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

Our position in Christ (by grace through faith) via the cross is that we are clothed in his righteousness, which is apart from the law, via faith:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

--

Was the law itself done away? No.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law itself was not done away, but we are not to put ourselves under it, as the risen and glorfied Christ LATER revealed to the Apostle Paul (i.e. Romans and Galatians). If one thinks that observing or keeping the law is what keeps them justified, they are not living or standing as who they are in Christ under grace.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[Aimiel]

Excellent post, Timothy. Very well-put.

Ya'nar, Jesus gave us commandments which, if we truly keep them, will cause us to keep the rest (those which apply to everyone, anyway). He told us to love one another, even as He loved us, and gave Himself for us. If we would walk in that kind of love, the world would quickly see Jesus in us and be drawn to Him.

[billwald]

Paul taught a new gospel. After the destruction Paul's denomination was the only one left. The side that wins the war writes the history books and the bibles.

[Turbo]

Paul taught a new gospel. After the destruction Paul's denomination was the only one left. The side that wins the war writes the history books and the bibles.
Who was Paul "at war" with? Certainly not Peter or the twelve. They endorsed Paul's ministry and counted his epistles among the scriptures.

[Ya'nar#1]

But the scripture also says this......,Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ...... and also this

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified ...
and again
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin
So whereby shall we attain to righteousness?
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you .
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
If you want salvation, you can't look for what you can do my friend, only what God has already done for you.

Greetings Ages!

I very much agree with all you said! There is nothing we can do, in and of ourselves, to gain salvation. And praise God, we don't have to, since Jesus has done it all for us!

But Paul was wrestling with people who believed devoutly that they HAD to obey the law to be saved, since ". . . for sin is the transgression of the law." Even the Greeks and other Gentiles had come to learn this from Jewish teachers. So he found it necessary to fight this misconception that even he had believed, before his conversion. But the law was not given to the Hebrews as a means of salvation, only as a "schoolmaster" to bring them into a higher understanding of how to behave as God would have them behave. To become a "holy" nation; a representative of God to all other surrounding pagan nations. This they failed to understand. Just as, after tiime, they failed to understand that the blood of sheeps and goats was not actually cleansing away their sins, but only pointed forward to the REAL sacrifice for sin: Jesus.

As for your text in Colossians 2:14, "Blotting out the handwritingof ordinances that was against us . . . and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." This is not referring to the Ten Commandments (the moral law of right and wrong), but of that code which we call the ceremonial law. The ceremonial and ritualistic laws of the Ol Testament are abrogated for the Christian.

What aspects of the ceremonial system are particularly mentioned as foreshadowing Christ, and thus ending at the cross? "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of thje new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col. 2:16, 17 [Note: The things concerning which no man is to judge us "are a shadow of things to come." The weekly Sabbath was given to man in Eden, not as a shadow of something to come, but as God's memorial of His creative work. For the Jews' shadowy sabbaths see Lev. 23:4-44].

Nice to hear from you, Ages!

God Bless,

--Ya'nar :Princess:: :wave:

[Lighthouse]

Ya'nar-
You were doing so well. Then you had to say that the Ten Commandments weren't nailed to the cross. You are sadly mistaken on that.:nono:

[billwald]

The Jerusalem Council would agree to almose anything to get Paul to leave town. In fact, they imposed the local interpretation of the Noahic Covenant on gentiles. Why? Because there isn't one verse in Exo thru Deut whuch applies to gentiles living outside Israel.

[Ages]

Greetings Ages!

I very much agree with all you said! There is nothing we can do, in and of ourselves, to gain salvation. And praise God, we don't have to, since Jesus has done it all for us!

But Paul was wrestling with people who believed devoutly that they HAD to obey the law to be saved, since ". . . for sin is the transgression of the law." Even the Greeks and other Gentiles had come to learn this from Jewish teachers. So he found it necessary to fight this misconception that even he had believed, before his conversion. But the law was not given to the Hebrews as a means of salvation, only as a "schoolmaster" to bring them into a higher understanding of how to behave as God would have them behave. To become a "holy" nation; a representative of God to all other surrounding pagan nations. This they failed to understand. Just as, after tiime, they failed to understand that the blood of sheeps and goats was not actually cleansing away their sins, but only pointed forward to the REAL sacrifice for sin: Jesus.

As for your text in Colossians 2:14, "Blotting out the handwritingof ordinances that was against us . . . and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." This is not referring to the Ten Commandments (the moral law of right and wrong), but of that code which we call the ceremonial law. The ceremonial and ritualistic laws of the Ol Testament are abrogated for the Christian.

What aspects of the ceremonial system are particularly mentioned as foreshadowing Christ, and thus ending at the cross? "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of thje new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col. 2:16, 17 [Note: The things concerning which no man is to judge us "are a shadow of things to come." The weekly Sabbath was given to man in Eden, not as a shadow of something to come, but as God's memorial of His creative work. For the Jews' shadowy sabbaths see Lev. 23:4-44].

Nice to hear from you, Ages!

God Bless,

--Ya'nar :Princess:: :wave:
Ya"nar, The central battleground of our faith lies in the realm of Moral and Ethical issues, as Jesus made so clear.(Matt 5-7 for example) But on what basis do you exclude all of the Law except the Ten commandments? The laws against adultry for example are moral laws, or the laws forbiding men and woman to lie with animals are moral in nature and not cerimonial. You can't please God by observing a set of rules as Paul makes abundantly clear. To do good has to become a part of your very nature. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them ...........For example, even if you do no murder, if murder is in your heart, your still guilty.
We aren't on a point system here. Why was the Law nailed to the cross? Trying to do good was no longer good enough, you had to BE GOOD. That is only possible through the gift of the Holy Ghost.
As to the Sabbath. There is no record of the Sabbath being given to man in Eden, only that God sancitfied the 7th day. What is the reason that God said he gave the Sabbath to the Jew?.....De 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. .......... There is no record in the New Testement of God giving the Sabbath day rest to the gentiles. The Sabbath is a type of the Holy Ghost, which is our rest..........Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world .
Of course you can honor or not honor a particular day as it please you. But Paul makes it clear in Col.(as you yourself quoted) that it is no part of moral law.(And Rom 14 as well).for Paul makes no distinction between kinds of sabbaths.
The crux of the issue is that there is no work nor type of work you can do to please God.. It's on the basis of faith. Good works are supposed to be the natural result of the Spirit dwelling in us. No works, no spirit,(as James makes clear....Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works .....but the battleground is in the heart and not with outward observance..Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
You should try to please God, both inwardly and outwardly, but if you get the goods inwardly, the outward observance is a natural production of the inward work..
I don't agree with every thing you said Ya'nar, but I gotta love your attitude with respect to God.
God bless

[billwald]

"This is not referring to the Ten Commandments (the moral law of right and wrong), but of that code which we call the ceremonial law."

The 613 "laws" can be found at www.jewfaq.org/613.htm Please seterate out the "moral" laws for me.


"The ceremonial and ritualistic laws of the Ol Testament are abrogated for the Christian."

They never applied to gentiles living outside Israel.

[keypurr]

But the scripture also says this......,Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ...... and also this

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified ...
and again
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin
So whereby shall we attain to righteousness?
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you .
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
If you want salvation, you can't look for what you can do my friend, only what God has already done for you.
handwriting of ordinances are not the ten Commandments

I agree that we are saved by grace, but that is no excuse to forget his Laws. They will outlast the world.

The laws are his will. Jesus took them off the stones and implanded them in our hearts. We do them because we wish to please the God who sent Christ. Not because we have to.

[keypurr]

Ya'nar-
You were doing so well. Then you had to say that the Ten Commandments weren't nailed to the cross. You are sadly mistaken on that.:nono:
Friend Lighthouse, many of us believe that the Handwitten ordanances are NOT the Ten Commandments. They are all the other rules and regulations of the Jewish faith. The sacriface has been made for all. No need to kill the lambs any more.

[God_Is_Truth]

handwriting of ordinances are not the ten Commandments

I agree that we are saved by grace, but that is no excuse to forget his Laws. They will outlast the world.

The laws are his will. Jesus took them off the stones and implanded them in our hearts. We do them because we wish to please the God who sent Christ. Not because we have to.

Romans 7
4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

We should be joined to Christ, not the law. we died to the law (in that we used to serve it) and have been raised to Christ (in that we serve Him). it's an either/or type of situation. one can't serve the law and Christ because to serve Christ one needs to die to the law. if one still serves the law, they are dead to Christ and not serving Him.

This verse clearly states that we died to the law not so we could serve it again from our hearts sincerely, but so that we might serve another. another represents something other than the law. what, if not the law, are we to serve? "Him who was raised from the dead".

[Aimiel]

The sacriface has been made for all. No need to kill the lambs any more.You mean like this?

[billwald]

"handwriting of ordinances are not the ten Commandments"

The Ten Words are like chapter headings. You want to ignore the chapters and claim you are "observing the book." This is what comes from reading the Bible backwards. The canon is the first 5 books. the rest is commentary and supplimental material.

[Timothy]

From the perspective of salvation, the law is a curse.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

The law is a curse, because we can never keep it, which is why from the perspective of salvation, via the cross, we have been redeemed from the law, delivered from the law, and made dead to the law.

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

If someone puts themselves under the law (i.e. thinks they need to keep it to get saved or stay saved), they are bound to keep the entire law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

[billwald]

"The law is a curse, because we can never keep it, which is why from the perspective of salvation, via the cross, we have been redeemed from the law, delivered from the law, and made dead to the law."

First, if you are a gentile living outside Israel then the Mosiac Covenant isn't your "law" and you can't be redeemed from it.

Second, "redeemed" in this context is a strange use of the word. "Pardoned" would be appropriate. Maybe "bailed out" is better.

Third, the Mosiac sacrifices only "atoned for" inadvertant violations, not intentional sins.

Fourth, The sacrifices accomplished their intended use. If Gal 3:10 (James 2:20) is correct then the sacrifice wiped the entire slate thus he "does" the entire Law.

Fifth, who are you to claim that the rabbinical Jews don't "keep" their "law" according to their theology?

[keypurr]

Grace is not measured according to the law! Romans 5:20-21

I believe that in Revelations John saw the Ark of the Covenant before the throne. This implies judgement by the Ten Comandments that are within it. There are other verses that imply Judgement by law, but salvation is by grace. The more we break the law, the more grace that is needed to cover them. However we are sure that he has enough grace to cover all our transgressions. I may be assuming a lot here but it makes sense to me.

[keypurr]

You mean like this?
Exactly. He is our sacrifice. :o

[keypurr]

billwald quote: "The law is a curse, because we can never keep it, which is why from the perspective of salvation, via the cross, we have been redeemed from the law, delivered from the law, and made dead to the law."
So then you think we can transgress the law? Sin is transgression of the Law. No Law, No Sin????

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

It is GRACE from our Lord that will cover our sins. We are not under the law, but we are still expected to abide by it

[billwald]

billwald quote: "The law is a curse, because we can never keep it, which is why from the perspective of salvation, via the cross, we have been redeemed from the law, delivered from the law, and made dead to the law."

The quotation marks indicate that it is NOT my quote, I am citing another poster.


"So then you think we can transgress the law? Sin is transgression of the Law. No Law, No Sin????"

I think that St Paul said it, first, in Romans. One of the few times I agree with Paul.

"We are not under the law, but we are still expected to abide by it"

This is double talk. It comes from Paul's sloppy writing, to whit, the failure to differentiate between the various covenants.
For example, murder was forbidden in Genesis. This has nothing to do with it also being mentioned in the Mosiac Covenant.

[Ya'nar#1]

I believe there may be a flaw is in your opening premise. Did Christ do away with the law? The answer is both "yes" and "no," depending on the context or position.

--

With the cross, Christ did away with the law, abolished the law, and ended the law in respect to us. We do not have to keep or fulfill the law in regards to salvation, to obtain righteousness, etc. For example:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

Our position in Christ (by grace through faith) via the cross is that we are clothed in his righteousness, which is apart from the law, via faith:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

--

Was the law itself done away? No.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law itself was not done away, but we are not to put ourselves under it, as the risen and glorfied Christ LATER revealed to the Apostle Paul (i.e. Romans and Galatians). If one thinks that observing or keeping the law is what keeps them justified, they are not living or standing as who they are in Christ under grace.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Greetings Timothy,

Thank you for your kind reply. I quite agree! Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, BTW. By choosing to supply the words "do away with" for fulfill, I was merely coining a phrase so often repeated to me, or words to that effect.

The fact is that God's purpose in proclaiming his laws to Israel was to reveal to them their sinfulness (Rom. 3:20) and their need of a Saviour (Gal 3:24) But the Jews had perverted God's purpose and had used the laws, both moral and ceremonial, as the means of establishing their own righteousness by their own attempts at legalistic obedience. Christ came to bring this mistaken abuse of law to an end and to point the way back to faith. Such faith does not abolish law but rather establishes it and makes it possible for men to fulfill its requirements (Rom 8:4).

Nice to hear from you, Timothy!

God Bless,

--Ya'nar :Princess:

[Ya'nar#1]

Grace is not measured according to the law! Romans 5:20-21


lighthouse, where did you get this translation?

ROMANS 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. (KJV)

Because of men's inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil, the effect of law was actually to multiply transgression. Law had this effect because it prohibited certain sinful acts which up to the time when the law was given to Moses had not been recognized as sinful. But when the law was formally stated, to continue these acts became premeditated transgression. Since the law is spiritual and holy and prohibits sinful indulgence, it inevitably excites opposition in rebellious hearts and thus becomes the occasion of stirring up sin and multiplyiing transgression. If man's heart was holy, and there were a disposition to do right, law would have no such tendency. God permitted sin and allowed it to abound, and then overruled it to bring about the most wonderful display of His glory and grace, so that the benefits of redemption infinitely transcend the evils of the rebillion.

I don't see how "measuring" grace according to the law has anything to do with anything. Do you? Might want to give that translation another look . . .

God Bless,

--Ya'nar :Princess:

[Ya'nar#1]

Excellent post, Timothy. Very well-put.

Ya'nar, Jesus gave us commandments which, if we truly keep them, will cause us to keep the rest (those which apply to everyone, anyway). He told us to love one another, even as He loved us, and gave Himself for us. If we would walk in that kind of love, the world would quickly see Jesus in us and be drawn to Him.


:BRAVO:

Thank you for your kind response!

[Lighthouse]

Ya'nar-
Grace is measured by our offence, not by the law.

keypurr-
What does handwritten mean, if not "written by His hand?"

[Timothy]

First, if you are a gentile living outside Israel then the Mosiac Covenant isn't your "law" and you can't be redeemed from it.

Second, "redeemed" in this context is a strange use of the word. "Pardoned" would be appropriate. Maybe "bailed out" is better.

Third, the Mosiac sacrifices only "atoned for" inadvertant violations, not intentional sins.

Fourth, The sacrifices accomplished their intended use. If Gal 3:10 (James 2:20) is correct then the sacrifice wiped the entire slate thus he "does" the entire Law.

Fifth, who are you to claim that the rabbinical Jews don't "keep" their "law" according to their theology?

Hi there Bill - I think that you have entirely missed my point, it appears. Today there is no positional difference between a Jew and a Gentile in the eyes of God. Regardless of what our position as a Gentile may have been in "time past," God today has positionally concluded all mankind in unbelief (Romans 1). via the cross everyone that is saved (via grace through faith) has been made, by Christ, to be positionally "dead to the law" (Romans). Our position is that we all have been made dead to the law, free from the law, and redeemed from the the law.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

So then you think we can transgress the law? Sin is transgression of the Law. No Law, No Sin????

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

It is GRACE from our Lord that will cover our sins. We are not under the law, but we are still expected to abide by it

Hi keypurr - Yes, as you imply, the law provides knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

All of us trangress the law every single day, and you are entirely correct that grace covers our sins. There is a difference in our POSITION (who we are in Christ) and our PRACTICE (our post-salvation experience). In Romans 6, Paul deals with our position (dead to sin, free from sin) and in Romans 7 he deals with our practice (we still sin).

That verse in I John 1:8 clearly refers to our practice (we all still sin). Later in I John 3:9, he is clearly referring to our position (dead to sin and free from sin in the eyes of God).

I John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[billwald]

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Statement doesn't logically compute.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Assumes facts no in evidence (straw man argument) because no one ever was justified by the deeds committed under the Mosiac Covenant. Second clause is a straw man because there never was a time that that there was no law. The (generic) law existed before God created the universe.

"Today there is no positional difference between a Jew and a Gentile in the eyes of God." Never was if one is referring to regeneration. Christian theology refuses to differentiate between this world and the next.


1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

True! But "WE" are (is) any person who repents of evil deeds, not just "Christians."

I John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I have never met this person.

AGREE!

[Ya'nar#1]

"This is not referring to the Ten Commandments (the moral law of right and wrong), but of that code which we call the ceremonial law."

The 613 "laws" can be found at www.jewfaq.org/613.htm Please seterate out the "moral" laws for me.


"The ceremonial and ritualistic laws of the Ol Testament are abrogated for the Christian."

They never applied to gentiles living outside Israel.


Hi billwald,

I'm not sure if this answer is precisely what you want, but I'm submitting it anyway because I find it interesting. MORAL AND CEREMONIAL LAWS COMPARED is given about mid-point in the post. In the meanwhile I will check out your website and see if this can be done in a succinct manner. Okay?

“The minds of the people [the Hebrews in the time of Moses], blinded and debased by slavery and heathenism, were not prepared to appreciate fully the far-reaching principles of God's ten precepts. That the obligations of the Decalogue might be more fully understood and enforced, additional precepts were given, illustrating and applying the principles of the Ten Commandments. These laws were called judgments, both because they were framed in infinite wisdom and equity and because the magistrates were to give judgment according to them. Unlike the Ten Commandments, they were delivered privately to Moses, who was to communicate them to the people.

“The first of these laws related to servants. In ancient times criminals were sometimes sold into slavery by the judges; in some cases, debtors were sold by their creditors; and poverty even led persons to sell themselves or their children. But a Hebrew could not be sold as a slave for life. His term of service was limited to six years; on the seventh he was to be set at liberty. Manstealing, deliberate murder, and rebellion against parental authority were to be punished with death. The holding of slaves not of Israelitish birth was permitted, but their life and person were strictly guarded. The murderer of a slave was to be punished; an injury inflicted upon one by his master, though no more than the loss of a tooth, entitled him to his freedom.

“The Israelites had lately been servants themselves, and now that they were to have servants under them, they were to beware of indulging the spirit of cruelty and exaction from which they had suffered under their Egyptian taskmasters. The memory of their own bitter servitude should enable them to put themselves in the servant's place, leading them to be kind and compassionate, to deal with others as they would wish to be dealt with.

“The rights of widows and orphans were especially guarded, and a tender regard for their helpless condition was enjoined. "If thou afflict them in any wise," the Lord declared, "and they cry at all unto Me, I will surely hear their cry; and My wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless." Aliens who united themselves with Israel were to be protected from wrong or oppression. "Thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt."

The taking of usury from the poor was forbidden. A poor man's raiment or blanket taken as a pledge, must be restored to him at nightfall. He who was guilty of theft was required to restore double. Respect for magistrates and rulers was enjoined, and judges were warned against perverting judgment, aiding a false cause, or receiving bribes. Calumny and slander were prohibited, and acts of kindness enjoined, even toward personal enemies. Again the people were reminded of the sacred obligation of the Sabbath.

Yearly feasts were appointed, at which all the men of the nation were to assemble before the Lord, bringing to Him their offerings of gratitude and the first fruits of His bounties. The object of all these regulations was stated: they proceeded from no exercise of mere arbitrary sovereignty; all were given for the good of Israel. The Lord said, "Ye shall be holy men unto Me"--worthy to be acknowledged by a holy God.

“These laws were to be recorded by Moses, and carefully treasured as the foundation of the national law, and, with the ten precepts which they were given to illustrate, the condition of the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel.

“The message was now given them from Jehovah: "Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him, and obey His voice, provoke Him not; for He will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in Him. But if thou shalt indeed obey His voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries."

“During all the wanderings of Israel, Christ, in the pillar of cloud and of fire, was their Leader. While there were types pointing to a Saviour to come, there was also a present Saviour, who gave commands to Moses for the people, and who was set forth before them as the only channel of blessing.
Upon descending from the mountain, "Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do." This pledge, together with the words of the Lord which it bound them to obey, was written by Moses in a book. “Then followed the ratification of the covenant. An altar was built at the foot of the mountain, and beside it twelve pillars were set up, "according to the twelve tribes of Israel," as a testimony to their acceptance of the covenant. Sacrifices were then presented by young men chosen for the service.

"Having sprinkled the altar with the blood of the offerings, Moses "took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people." Thus the conditions of the covenant were solemnly repeated, and all were at liberty to choose whether or not they would comply with them. They had at the first promised to obey the voice of God; but they had since heard His law proclaimed; and its principles had been particularized, that they might know how much this covenant involved. Again the people answered with one accord, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." "When Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood, . . . and sprinkled both the book and all the people, saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you." Hebrews 9:19, 20.

“The law was not spoken at this time exclusively for the benefit of the Hebrews. God honored them by making them the guardians and keepers of His law, but it was to be held as a sacred trust for the whole world. The precepts of the Decalogue are adapted to all mankind, and they were given for the instruction and government of all. Ten precepts, brief, comprehensive, and authoritative, cover the duty of man to God and to his fellow man; and all based upon the great fundamental principle of love. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." Luke 10:27. See also Deuteronomy 6:4, 5; Leviticus 19:18. In the Ten Commandments these principles are carried out in detail, and made applicable to the condition and circumstances of man.” --PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS, by Ellen White, pp. 306-310

MORAL AND CEREMONIAL LAWS

MORAL LAW
1. Is called the "royal law." James 2:8
2. Was spoken by God. Deut. 4:12, 13
3. Was written "with the finger of God" on stone. Exodus 31:18
4. Was placed in the ark. Ex. 40:20; 1 Kings 8:9; Heb. 9:4
5. Is "perfect." Psalm 19:7
6. Is to "stand fast for ever and ever." Psalm 111:7, 8

CEREMONIAL LAW
1. Is called "the law . . . contained in ordinances." Eph. 2:15
2. Was spoken by Moses. Lev. 1:1-3
3. Was "the handwriting of ordinances." Colossians 2:14
4. Was written by Moses in a book. 2 Chronicles 35:12
5. Was placed in the side of the ark. Deut. 31:24-26
6. "Made nothing perfect." Heb. 7:19
7. Was nailed to the cross. Col. 2:14
8. Was abolished by Christ. Eph. 2:15
9. Was taken out of the way by Christ. Col. 2:14
10. Was instituted in consequence of sin. Lev. 3-7

CEREMONIAL SABBATHS

Ceremonial sabbaths were rest days (sabbath means rest), but they were not to be confused with the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment.

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CEREMONIAL SABBATHS vs. THE 4TH COMMANDMENT SEVENTH-DAY SABBATH

The ceremonial or ritual law is that outward feature of the Jewish religious system dealing with the priesthood. The moral law, of which the Sabbath commandment is a part, is spiritual in nature, and can be kept only by men whose hearts have been renewed by the Spirit of God. The proper function of the moral law is to make a clear-cut distinction between right and wrong; whereas the ceremonial code, whose types and symbols were designed to point forward to Christ and to help men understand and lay firm hold on redemption through the infinite sacrifice of Christ, were given to lead men to faith in the coming Redeemer, in whom they all met fulfillment and reality. Without faith in that one great Sacrifice, divinely provided and promised, they were meaningless (Heb. 9:8-15).

We find the ceremonial sabbaths listed in Leviticus 16 and 23.

In Leviticus 16 the Lord appoints a “sabbath” of rest in recognition of the Day of Atonement,

LEVITICUS 16:29-31
“This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work—whether native-born or an alien living among you—because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins. IT IS A SABBATH OF REST, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance . . .”

Notice the Lord said through Moses that this would be an “ordinance” –the same language Paul used in Col. 2:14 and Eph. 2:15. Ordinances are different from commandments since their purpose was temporary, and the moral law is eternal.

In chapter 23 of Leviticus the various ceremonial sabbaths are listed, beginning with the Passover and Unleavened Bread. These are preceded in verses 3 and 4 by a mention of the seventh-day Sabbath as one of the “feast” days to be celebrated each week.

LEVITICUS 23:4-8 Passover and Unleavened Bread
“These are the Lord’s appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: 5 The Lord’s Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month [Nisan]. 6 On the fifteenth day of that month the Lord’s Feast of Unleavened Bread begins . . . 7 On the first day HOLD A SACRED ASSEMBLY AND DO NO REGULAR WORK. . . And on the seventh day HOLD A SACRED ASSEMBLY AND DO NO REGULAR WORK.”

LEVITICUS 23:9-11 Firstfruits
The Lord said to Moses, 10 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘. . . bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. He is to wave the sheaf before the Lord so it will be accepted on your behalf . . . “

Special offerings of the first fruits were made at each of the 3 great annual feasts of Israel—Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. In 1 Cor. 15:20 Christ is declared to be “the firstfruits of them that slept.” He was the pledge of the great harvest that will follow when the righteous dead are raised at the second advent of Christ (v. 23).

LEVITICUS 23:15-22 Feast of Weeks
“From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, then present an offering of new grain to the Lord . . . 21 On that same day you are to proclaim a SACRED ASSEMBLY AND DO NO REGULAR WORK . . ."

LEVITICUS 23:23-25 Feast of Trumpets
The Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a DAY OF REST, A SACRED ASSEMBLY commemorated with trumpet blasts. DO NO REGULAR WORK, but present an offering made to the Lord by fire.’”

LEVITICUS 23:26-32 Day of Atonement
The Lord said to Moses, 27 “The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. HOLD A SACRED ASSEMBLY and deny yourselves, and present an offering made to the Lord by fire. DO NO WORK on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the Lord your God. Anyone who does not deny himself on that day MUST BE CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE. I WILL DESTROY FROM AMONG HIS PEOPLE ANYONE WHO DOES ANY WORK ON THAT DAY . . . It is a sabbath of rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.”

LEV 23:33-44 Feast of Tabernacles
14 Nisan/Abib (The Lord's Passover, not a Sabbath)
Friday (Beginning our Thursday night)
Luke 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Luke 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Preparation for the Passover - Mat 26:17-19, Mark 14:12-16, Luke 22:7-13.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
The 14th of Nisan is to be the Lord's Passover, and it was just after sunset (the beginning of that day) that the Passover meal of unleavened bread was celebrated by Jesus with His disciples. That would correspond to our present day Thursday evening (when using Midnight to Midnight).

Judas identified as the betrayer- Mat 26:21-25, Mark 14:18-21, Luke 22:21-23, John 13:21-30.
The Lord's Supper- Mat 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:14-16.
Jesus retires to Gethsemane and is arrested- Mat 26:30-56, Mark 14:26-52, Luke 22:39-53, John 18:1-12.

In the morning of Friday (but still 14 Nisan) the trials took place, and the crucifixion began at about 9am (the third hour- Mark 15:25). Jesus died at the very moment the Passover lamb was to be slain at the Temple, the ninth hour (our 3pm) on the 14th of Nisan (our Friday). From the moment Jesus was laid in the tomb, until sunset, the Jews reckoned to be the first day in the grave, even though it was only a few hours. All of this took place on what was the preparation day - not only for the 7th day Sabbath, but also for the upcoming Feast of Unleavened Bread. Note - that particular seventh day Sabbath was a "high" day ...
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for *that sabbath day was an high day*,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

15th of Nisan/Abib (A double "high" Sabbath day)
Saturday, which began at sunset on our Friday night.
First day of the week long Festival of Unleavened Bread.
... it was a "high" Seventh day (Saturday) Sabbath because it was ALSO the 15th of Nisan/Abib, a feast day Sabbath ...
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
The Messiah rests in the tomb, observing the Sabbath day rest the entire day. This is the second day in the grave.
16th of Nisan/Abib (The day of first fruits, Resurrection day)
Sunday, which began at sunset - our Saturday night.
Not a Sabbath day in type or antitype.
The resurrection takes place at some time after the beginning of the day (at sunset) but before the morning sunrise. Just exactly when after sunset the resurrection took place is uncertain, but that it happened on what we today call Sunday is really quite clear as Luke 24 showed, but here is more evidence-
1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the Firstfruits of them that slept.
So just how does this verse relate?-
Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the Firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

The wave sheaf represented the first fruits of the resurrection, the Messiah (1 Cor 15:20), and the day it was presented was the day AFTER the Sabbath as Lev 23:11 just proved. (The Sabbath meant here is 15 Nisan/Abib, the first day of Unleavened Bread [Lev 23:6-7]). Clearly then, since the first day of Unleavened Bread coincided with the Seventh day Sabbath that year, the resurrection of Jesus (the first fruits), happened on 16 Nisan/Abib the day AFTER the double or high Sabbath, on the first day of the week, Sunday. (Because it represents the resurrection, the day of Firstfruits must clearly occur on the third day after the crucifixion [14 Nisan], to fulfill scripture.)

Sorry about this last being so long, but I thought perhaps you might be interested in it.

God Bless,

--Ya'nar :Princess: :wave:

[keypurr]

Ya'nar-
Grace is measured by our offence, not by the law.

keypurr-
What does handwritten mean, if not "written by His hand?"
All the other laws that the Israel had. Keep in mind that the Ten Comandments were kept INSIDE the Ark of the Covenant. That was because they were holy. It is that same Ark which sits before the throne of God today as Revelations tells us. If we sin a lot, he will give us enough (More) grace to cover them. But that does not mean we should sin. If we live in the spirit we can overcome the things of the flesh.

[Lighthouse]

No we can't. We can not overcome the things of the flesh. He [Christ] already has!

[keypurr]

Friend, if Christ is in us we can do it. His spirit is stronger than the ruler of this world.

[billwald]

Then why did Jesus say that loving one's neighbor was the 2nd greatest law? it is not in the 10 words.

[Ya'nar#1]

Then why did Jesus say that loving one's neighbor was the 2nd greatest law? it is not in the 10 words.


(If I may be permitted to answer for keypurr), Yes, billwald, it IS in the last 6 commandments!

#5 Honor thy father and thy mother -- your father and mother are people, "neighbors, " --but even closer than neighbors

#6 Thou shalt not kill -- our neighbors. we don't kill those we are supposed to love, right?

#7 Not commit adultery -- again, our husband or wife is a type of neighbor, but closer, seeing as how they usually reside under our roof.

#8 Don't steal -- We should not steal from our "neighbor" who we are bidden to love.

#9 Don't lie -- about our neighbors. People we share this planet with!

#10 Don't covet (envy) -- our neighbors, or anyone.


As Jesus said, the 10 commandments were given to the world, not only to the Jews. He came to save "the world" --not just the Jews in the world.

God Bless!

--Ya'nar :Princess:

[keypurr]

(If I may be permitted to answer for keypurr), Yes, billwald, it IS in the last 6 commandments!

#5 Honor thy father and thy mother -- your father and mother are people, "neighbors, " --but even closer than neighbors

#6 Thou shalt not kill -- our neighbors. we don't kill those we are supposed to love, right?

#7 Not commit adultery -- again, our husband or wife is a type of neighbor, but closer, seeing as how they usually reside under our roof.

#8 Don't steal -- We should not steal from our "neighbor" who we are bidden to love.

#9 Don't lie -- about our neighbors. People we share this planet with!

#10 Don't covet (envy) -- our neighbors, or anyone.




As Jesus said, the 10 commandments were given to the world, not only to the Jews. He came to save "the world" --not just the Jews in the world.

God Bless!

--Ya'nar :Princess:
We are on the same page Ya'nar#1. I see Love God as the first four and Love your neighbor as the last six. Christ taught us how to really look at the law. It is strictly a law of love. It is not a burden to do it under love but it is leagalism if you feel you have to keep them. I try to keep them because he loved me first and I know that is what he wants from us. Love

[billwald]

"As Jesus said, the 10 commandments were given to the world, not only to the Jews."

Where did he say that?

[God_Is_Truth]

would anyone like to tackle post #16?

[Lighthouse]

For once I agree with billwald. Where did Jesus say the 10 Commandmenst were for the world?

G_I_T-
Is that a post I agree with you on?

[God_Is_Truth]

G_I_T-
Is that a post I agree with you on?

you'd have to read it to see.

[Lighthouse]

Of course I agree with you on that.

[God_Is_Truth]

Of course I agree with you on that.

i figured you would be. i am hoping either Ya'nar#1 or keypurr takes note of it.

[keypurr]

"As Jesus said, the 10 commandments were given to the world, not only to the Jews."

Where did he say that?

Should we assume then that the creator is God only of the Hebrews? Does he one set of rules for them and one set for us? Or are we all HIS people?

Malachi 3
1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: 3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 5And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.

Same God, Same Lord, Same Law. The only differance is, we are now saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ who shed his blood that we MAY live.

[God_Is_Truth]

Should we assume then that the creator is God only of the Hebrews? Does he one set of rules for them and one set for us? Or are we all HIS people?


Romans 9
25As He says also in Hosea,
"I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"

there was clearly a division before Christ between those who were God's people, and those who were not.

[Ya'nar#1]

Romans 9
25As He says also in Hosea,
"I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"

there was clearly a division before Christ between those who were God's people, and those who were not.

Yes. But that doesn't mean the law only applied to one group, and not to all people.

GIT, remember when the rich young ruler came to Christ and asked what he must do to have eternal life? Christ's reply was, ". . . what do the commandments say?" Whenever matters of eternal life were brought up by people this way, Jesus always pointed back to the law. Why? Because He is the answer for the sin problem. And only when we are aware of our sin problem do we go looking for a Saviour. Right? And the whole world has a problem with sin, doesn't it? Not just the Hebrews before Christ's time. As both Jesus and Paul attempted to show, the law does not provide salvation. It only points us to Jesus, the Saviour OF THE WORLD.

I have a counter question for you: Where in the scriptures does it say the law isn't for the entire world, but only for the Hebrews?

BTW, I've been working on a post concerning this exact problem. I will send it along in hopes it will help. Just remember, it's not exactly how I intend to post this material.

THE LAW WAS CREATED FOR THE WORLD—NOT JUST JEWS

Many today mistakenly believe in Sunday-sacredness as the only true Sabbath for Christians. What they fail to grasp is that the law was created for EVERYONE. Not just for the Jews. One indication of this is in the wording of the 4th commandment:

EXODUS 20:10 “But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates”—in other words, observing the law is what God expects from ALL of us if we truely love Him and desire to live the transformed lives we say we yearn for as evidence of truely changed lives. All men and women wherever and whoever they may be should come to respect God’s law. The law was given to us as a blessing. Without the law, convicting us of sin, how is the Holy Spirit able to point out those flaws in us that we need to pray about?

Below, in answer to support my contention, I submit excerpts from one of my favorite authors, from the book Patriarchs and Prophets:

LAW FOR THE WHOLE WORLD

“The law was not spoken at this time exclusively for the benefit of the Hebrews. God honored them by making them the guardians and keepers of His law, but it was to be held as a sacred trust for the whole world. The precepts of the Decalogue are adapted to all mankind, and they were given for the instruction and government of all. Ten precepts, brief, comprehensive, and authoritative, cover the duty of man to God and to his fellow man; and all based upon the great fundamental principle of love. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." Luke 10:27. See also Deuteronomy 6:4, 5; Leviticus 19:18. In the Ten Commandments these principles are carried out in detail, and made applicable to the condition and circumstances of man.” PP, p. 305

“From the opening of the great controversy it has been Satan's purpose to misrepresent God's character and to excite rebellion against His law, and this work appears to be crowned with success. The multitudes give ear to Satan's deceptions and set themselves against God. But amid the working of evil, God's purposes move steadily forward to their accomplishment; to all created intelligences He is making manifest His justice and benevolence. Through Satan's temptations the whole human race have become transgressors of God's law, but by the sacrifice of His Son a way is opened whereby they may return to God. Through the grace of Christ they may be enabled to render obedience to the Father's law. Thus in every age, from the midst of apostasy and rebellion, God gathers out a people that are true to Him--a people "in whose heart is His law." Isaiah 51:7.

“It was by deception that Satan seduced angels; thus he has in all ages carried forward his work among men, and he will continue this policy to the last. Should he openly profess to be warring against God and His law, men would beware; but he disguises himself, and mixes truth with error. The most dangerous falsehoods are those that are mingled with truth. It is thus that errors are received that captivate and ruin the soul. By this means Satan carries the world with him. But a day is coming when his triumph will be forever ended.

“God's dealings with rebellion will result in fully unmasking the work that has so long been carried on under cover. The results of Satan's rule, the fruits of setting aside the divine statutes, will be laid open to the view of all created intelligences. The law of God will stand fully vindicated. It will be seen that all the dealings of God have been conducted with reference to the eternal good of His people, and the good of all the worlds that He has created. Satan himself, in the presence of the witnessing universe, will confess the justice of God's government and the righteousness of His law.” PP, 338, 339

IMMUTABILITY OF THE LAW

“The sacrificial system, committed to Adam, was also perverted by his descendants. Superstition, idolatry, cruelty, and licentiousness corrupted the simple and significant service that God had appointed. Through long intercourse with idolaters the people of Israel had mingled many heathen customs with their worship; therefore the Lord gave them at Sinai definite instruction concerning the sacrificial service. After the completion of the tabernacle He communicated with Moses from the cloud of glory above the mercy seat, and gave him full directions concerning the system of offerings and the forms of worship to be maintained in the sanctuary. The ceremonial law was thus given to Moses, and by him written in a book. But the law of Ten Commandments spoken from Sinai had been written by God Himself on the tables of stone, and was sacredly preserved in the ark.

“There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and His priesthood.
This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Colossians 2:14. But concerning the law of Ten Commandments the psalmist declares, "Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. . . . Verily I say unto you"--making the assertion as emphatic as possible—"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17, 18. Here He teaches, not merely what the claims of God's law had been, and were then, but that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages.

“Concerning the law proclaimed from Sinai, Nehemiah says, "Thou camest down also upon Mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments." Nehemiah 9:13. And Paul, "the apostle to the Gentiles," declares, "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12. This can be no other than the Decalogue; for it is the law that says, "Thou shalt not covet." Verse 7.

“While the Saviour's death brought to an end the law of types and shadows, it did not in the least detract from the obligation of the moral law. On the contrary, the very fact that it was necessary for Christ to die in order to atone for the transgression of that law, proves it to be immutable.

“Those who claim that Christ came to abrogate the law of God and to do away with the Old Testament, speak of the Jewish age as one of darkness, and represent the religion of the Hebrews as consisting of mere forms and ceremonies. But this is an error. All through the pages of scared history, where the dealings of God with His chosen people are recorded, there are burning traces of the great I Am. Never has He given to the sons of men more open manifestations of His power and glory than when He alone was acknowledged as Israel's ruler, and gave the law to His people. Here was a scepter swayed by no human hand; and the stately goings forth of Israel's invisible King were unspeakably grand and awful.

“In all these revelations of the divine presence the glory of God was manifested through Christ. Not alone at the Saviour's advent, but through all the ages after the Fall and the promise of redemption, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. Christ was the foundation and center of the sacrificial system in both the patriarchal and the Jewish age. Since the sin of our first parents there has been no direct communication between God and man. The Father has given the world into the hands of Christ, that through His mediatorial work He may redeem man and vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God. All the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been through Christ. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man's Substitute and Surety. These holy men of old held communion with the Saviour who was to come to our world in human flesh; and some of them talked with Christ and heavenly angels face to face.” PP, 365, 366

PERPETUITY OF THE LAW

“Crime would increase through successive generations, and the curse of sin would rest more and more heavily upon the human race, upon the beasts, and upon the earth. The days of man would be shortened by his own course of sin; he would deteriorate in physical stature and endurance and in moral and intellectual power, until the world would be filled with misery of every type. Through the indulgence of appetite and passion men would become incapable of appreciating the great truths of the plan of redemption. Yet Christ, true to the purpose for which He left heaven, would continue His interest in men, and still invite them to hide their weakness and deficiencies in Him. He would supply the needs of all who would come unto Him in faith. And there would ever be a few who would preserve the knowledge of God and would remain unsullied amid the prevailing iniquity.

“The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. To Adam, the offering of the first sacrifice was a most painful ceremony. His hand must be raised to take life, which only God could give. It was the first time he had ever witnessed death, and he knew that had he been obedient to God, there would have been no death of man or beast. As he slew the innocent victim, he trembled at the thought that his sin must shed the blood of the spotless Lamb of God. This scene gave him a deeper and more vivid sense of the greatness of his transgression, which nothing but the death of God's dear Son could expiate. And he marveled at the infinite goodness that would give such a ransom to save the guilty. A star of hope illumined the dark and terrible future and relieved it of its utter desolation.

“But the plan of redemption had a yet broader and deeper purpose than the salvation of man. It was not for this alone that Christ came to the earth; it was not merely that the inhabitants of this little world might regard the law of God as it should be regarded; but it was to vindicate the character of God before the universe. To this result of His great sacrifice--its influence upon the intelligences of other worlds, as well as upon man--the Saviour looked forward when just before His crucifixion He said: "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto Me." John 12:31, 32. The act of Christ in dying for the salvation of man would not only make heaven accessible to men, but before all the universe it would justify God and His Son in their dealing with the rebellion of Satan. It would establish the perpetuity of the law of God and would reveal the nature and the results of sin.

“From the first the great controversy had been upon the law of God. Satan had sought to prove that God was unjust, that His law was faulty, and that the good of the universe required it to be changed. In attacking the law he aimed to overthrow the authority of its Author. In the controversy it was to be shown whether the divine statutes were defective and subject to change, or perfect and immutable.

“When Satan was thrust out of heaven, he determined to make the earth his kingdom. When he tempted and overcame Adam and Eve, he thought that he had gained possession of this world; "because," said he, "they have chosen me as their ruler." He claimed that it was impossible that forgiveness should be granted to the sinner, and therefore the fallen race were his rightful subjects, and the world was his. But God gave His own dear Son-- one equal with Himself--to bear the penalty of transgression, and thus He provided a way by which they might be restored to His favor, and brought back to their Eden home. Christ undertook to redeem man and to rescue the world from the grasp of Satan. The great controversy begun in heaven was to be decided in the very world, on the very same field, that Satan claimed as his.

“It was the marvel of all the universe that Christ should humble Himself to save fallen man. That He who had passed from star to star, from world to world, superintending all, by His providence supplying the needs of every order of being in His vast creation--that He should consent to leave His glory and take upon Himself human nature, was a mystery which the sinless intelligences of other worlds desired to understand. When Christ came to our world in the form of humanity, all were intensely interested in following Him as He traversed, step by step, the bloodstained path from the manger to Calvary. Heaven marked the insult and mockery that He received, and knew that it was at Satan's instigation. They marked the work of counteragencies going forward; Satan constantly pressing darkness, sorrow, and suffering upon the race, and Christ counteracting it. They watched the battle between light and darkness as it waxed stronger. And as Christ in His expiring agony upon the cross cried out, "It is finished" (John 19:30), a shout of triumph rang through every world and through heaven itself. The great contest that had been so long in progress in this world was now decided, and Christ was conqueror. His death had answered the question whether the Father and the Son had sufficient love for man to exercise self-denial and a spirit of sacrifice. Satan had revealed his true character as a liar and a murderer. It was seen that the very same spirit with which he had ruled the children of men who were under his power, he would have manifested if permitted to control the intelligences of heaven. With one voice the loyal universe united in extolling the divine administration.” PP, 68, 69

LAW NOT ABOLISHED AT THE CROSS

“If the law could be changed, man might have been saved without the sacrifice of Christ; but the fact that it was necessary for Christ to give His life for the fallen race, proves that the law of God will not release the sinner from its claims upon him. It is demonstrated that the wages of sin is death.
When Christ died, the destruction of Satan was made certain. But if the law was abolished at the cross, as many claim, then the agony and death of God's dear Son were endured only to give to Satan just what he asked; then the prince of evil triumphed, his charges against the divine government were sustained. The very fact that Christ bore the penalty of man's transgression is a mighty argument to all created intelligences that the law is changeless; that God is righteous, merciful, and self-denying; and that infinite justice and mercy unite in the administration of His government.

LAW NOT CHANGED AFTER THE FALL OF MAN
(The Law and the Covenants)

“Adam and Eve, at their creation, had a knowledge of the law of God; they were acquainted with its claims upon them; its precepts were written upon their hearts. When man fell by transgression the law was not changed, but a remedial system was established to bring him back to obedience. The promise of a Saviour was given, and sacrificial offerings pointing forward to the death of Christ as the great sin offering were established. But had the law of God never been transgressed, there would have been no death, and no need of a Saviour; consequently there would have been no need of sacrifices.

“Adam taught his descendants the law of God, and it was handed down from father to son through successive generations. But notwithstanding the gracious provision for man's redemption, there were few who accepted it and rendered obedience. By transgression the world became so vile that it was necessary to cleanse it by the Flood from its corruption. The law was preserved by Noah and his family, and Noah taught his descendants the Ten Commandments. As men again departed from God, the Lord chose Abraham, of whom He declared, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. To him was given the rite of circumcision, which was a sign that those who received it were devoted to the service of God--a pledge that they would remain separate from idolatry, and would obey the law of God. The failure of Abraham's descendants to keep this pledge, as shown in their disposition to form alliances with the heathen and adopt their practices, was the cause of their sojourn and bondage in Egypt. But in their intercourse with idolaters, and their forced submission to the Egyptians, the divine precepts became still further corrupted with the vile and cruel teachings of heathenism. Therefore when the Lord brought them forth from Egypt, He came down upon Sinai, enshrouded in glory and surrounded by His angels, and in awful majesty spoke His law in the hearing of all the people.

“He did not even then trust His precepts to the memory of a people who were prone to forget His requirements, but wrote them upon tables of stone. He would remove from Israel all possibility of mingling heathen traditions with His holy precepts, or of confounding His requirements with human ordinances or customs. But He did not stop with giving them the precepts of the Decalogue. The people had shown themselves so easily led astray that He would leave no door of temptation unguarded. Moses was commanded to write, as God should bid him, judgments and laws giving minute instruction as to what was required. These directions relating to the duty of the people to God, to one another, and to the stranger were only the principles of the Ten Commandments amplified and given in a specific manner, that none need err. They were designed to guard the sacredness of the ten precepts engraved on the tables of stone.

“If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall, preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses.

“The sacrificial system, committed to Adam, was also perverted by his descendants. Superstition, idolatry, cruelty, and licentiousness corrupted the simple and significant service that God had appointed. Through long intercourse with idolaters the people of Israel had mingled many heathen customs with their worship; therefore the Lord gave them at Sinai definite instruction concerning the sacrificial service. After the completion of the tabernacle He communicated with Moses from the cloud of glory above the mercy seat, and gave him full directions concerning the system of offerings and the forms of worship to be maintained in the sanctuary. The ceremonial law was thus given to Moses, and by him written in a book. But the law of Ten Commandments spoken from Sinai had been written by God Himself on the tables of stone, and was sacredly preserved in the ark.” PP, 363, 364

God Bless,

--Ya'nar :Princess:

[keypurr]

Yes. But that doesn't mean the law only applied to one group, and not to all people.

GIT, remember when the rich young ruler came to Christ and asked what he must do to have eternal life? Christ's reply was, ". . . what do the commandments say?" Whenever matters of eternal life were brought up by people this way, Jesus always pointed back to the law. Why? Because He is the answer for the sin problem. And only when we are aware of our sin problem do we go looking for a Saviour. Right? And the whole world has a problem with sin, doesn't it? Not just the Hebrews before Christ's time. As both Jesus and Paul attempted to show, the law does not provide salvation. It only points us to Jesus, the Saviour OF THE WORLD.

I have a counter question for you: Where in the scriptures does it say the law isn't for the entire world, but only for the Hebrews?

BTW, I've been working on a post concerning this exact problem. I will send it along in hopes it will help. Just remember, it's not exactly how I intend to post this material.

THE LAW WAS CREATED FOR THE WORLD—NOT JUST JEWS

Many today mistakenly believe in Sunday-sacredness as the only true Sabbath for Christians. What they fail to grasp is that the law was created for EVERYONE. Not just for the Jews. One indication of this is in the wording of the 4th commandment:

EXODUS 20:10 “But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates”—in other words, observing the law is what God expects from ALL of us if we truely love Him and desire to live the transformed lives we say we yearn for as evidence of truely changed lives. All men and women wherever and whoever they may be should come to respect God’s law. The law was given to us as a blessing. Without the law, convicting us of sin, how is the Holy Spirit able to point out those flaws in us that we need to pray about?

Below, in answer to support my contention, I submit excerpts from one of my favorite authors, from the book Patriarchs and Prophets:

LAW FOR THE WHOLE WORLD

“The law was not spoken at this time exclusively for the benefit of the Hebrews. God honored them by making them the guardians and keepers of His law, but it was to be held as a sacred trust for the whole world. The precepts of the Decalogue are adapted to all mankind, and they were given for the instruction and government of all. Ten precepts, brief, comprehensive, and authoritative, cover the duty of man to God and to his fellow man; and all based upon the great fundamental principle of love. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." Luke 10:27. See also Deuteronomy 6:4, 5; Leviticus 19:18. In the Ten Commandments these principles are carried out in detail, and made applicable to the condition and circumstances of man.” PP, p. 305

“From the opening of the great controversy it has been Satan's purpose to misrepresent God's character and to excite rebellion against His law, and this work appears to be crowned with success. The multitudes give ear to Satan's deceptions and set themselves against God. But amid the working of evil, God's purposes move steadily forward to their accomplishment; to all created intelligences He is making manifest His justice and benevolence. Through Satan's temptations the whole human race have become transgressors of God's law, but by the sacrifice of His Son a way is opened whereby they may return to God. Through the grace of Christ they may be enabled to render obedience to the Father's law. Thus in every age, from the midst of apostasy and rebellion, God gathers out a people that are true to Him--a people "in whose heart is His law." Isaiah 51:7.

“It was by deception that Satan seduced angels; thus he has in all ages carried forward his work among men, and he will continue this policy to the last. Should he openly profess to be warring against God and His law, men would beware; but he disguises himself, and mixes truth with error. The most dangerous falsehoods are those that are mingled with truth. It is thus that errors are received that captivate and ruin the soul. By this means Satan carries the world with him. But a day is coming when his triumph will be forever ended.

“God's dealings with rebellion will result in fully unmasking the work that has so long been carried on under cover. The results of Satan's rule, the fruits of setting aside the divine statutes, will be laid open to the view of all created intelligences. The law of God will stand fully vindicated. It will be seen that all the dealings of God have been conducted with reference to the eternal good of His people, and the good of all the worlds that He has created. Satan himself, in the presence of the witnessing universe, will confess the justice of God's government and the righteousness of His law.” PP, 338, 339

IMMUTABILITY OF THE LAW

“The sacrificial system, committed to Adam, was also perverted by his descendants. Superstition, idolatry, cruelty, and licentiousness corrupted the simple and significant service that God had appointed. Through long intercourse with idolaters the people of Israel had mingled many heathen customs with their worship; therefore the Lord gave them at Sinai definite instruction concerning the sacrificial service. After the completion of the tabernacle He communicated with Moses from the cloud of glory above the mercy seat, and gave him full directions concerning the system of offerings and the forms of worship to be maintained in the sanctuary. The ceremonial law was thus given to Moses, and by him written in a book. But the law of Ten Commandments spoken from Sinai had been written by God Himself on the tables of stone, and was sacredly preserved in the ark.

“There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and His priesthood.
This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Colossians 2:14. But concerning the law of Ten Commandments the psalmist declares, "Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. . . . Verily I say unto you"--making the assertion as emphatic as possible—"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17, 18. Here He teaches, not merely what the claims of God's law had been, and were then, but that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages.

“Concerning the law proclaimed from Sinai, Nehemiah says, "Thou camest down also upon Mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments." Nehemiah 9:13. And Paul, "the apostle to the Gentiles," declares, "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12. This can be no other than the Decalogue; for it is the law that says, "Thou shalt not covet." Verse 7.

“While the Saviour's death brought to an end the law of types and shadows, it did not in the least detract from the obligation of the moral law. On the contrary, the very fact that it was necessary for Christ to die in order to atone for the transgression of that law, proves it to be immutable.

“Those who claim that Christ came to abrogate the law of God and to do away with the Old Testament, speak of the Jewish age as one of darkness, and represent the religion of the Hebrews as consisting of mere forms and ceremonies. But this is an error. All through the pages of scared history, where the dealings of God with His chosen people are recorded, there are burning traces of the great I Am. Never has He given to the sons of men more open manifestations of His power and glory than when He alone was acknowledged as Israel's ruler, and gave the law to His people. Here was a scepter swayed by no human hand; and the stately goings forth of Israel's invisible King were unspeakably grand and awful.

“In all these revelations of the divine presence the glory of God was manifested through Christ. Not alone at the Saviour's advent, but through all the ages after the Fall and the promise of redemption, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. Christ was the foundation and center of the sacrificial system in both the patriarchal and the Jewish age. Since the sin of our first parents there has been no direct communication between God and man. The Father has given the world into the hands of Christ, that through His mediatorial work He may redeem man and vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God. All the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been through Christ. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man's Substitute and Surety. These holy men of old held communion with the Saviour who was to come to our world in human flesh; and some of them talked with Christ and heavenly angels face to face.” PP, 365, 366

PERPETUITY OF THE LAW

“Crime would increase through successive generations, and the curse of sin would rest more and more heavily upon the human race, upon the beasts, and upon the earth. The days of man would be shortened by his own course of sin; he would deteriorate in physical stature and endurance and in moral and intellectual power, until the world would be filled with misery of every type. Through the indulgence of appetite and passion men would become incapable of appreciating the great truths of the plan of redemption. Yet Christ, true to the purpose for which He left heaven, would continue His interest in men, and still invite them to hide their weakness and deficiencies in Him. He would supply the needs of all who would come unto Him in faith. And there would ever be a few who would preserve the knowledge of God and would remain unsullied amid the prevailing iniquity.

“The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. To Adam, the offering of the first sacrifice was a most painful ceremony. His hand must be raised to take life, which only God could give. It was the first time he had ever witnessed death, and he knew that had he been obedient to God, there would have been no death of man or beast. As he slew the innocent victim, he trembled at the thought that his sin must shed the blood of the spotless Lamb of God. This scene gave him a deeper and more vivid sense of the greatness of his transgression, which nothing but the death of God's dear Son could expiate. And he marveled at the infinite goodness that would give such a ransom to save the guilty. A star of hope illumined the dark and terrible future and relieved it of its utter desolation.

“But the plan of redemption had a yet broader and deeper purpose than the salvation of man. It was not for this alone that Christ came to the earth; it was not merely that the inhabitants of this little world might regard the law of God as it should be regarded; but it was to vindicate the character of God before the universe. To this result of His great sacrifice--its influence upon the intelligences of other worlds, as well as upon man--the Saviour looked forward when just before His crucifixion He said: "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto Me." John 12:31, 32. The act of Christ in dying for the salvation of man would not only make heaven accessible to men, but before all the universe it would justify God and His Son in their dealing with the rebellion of Satan. It would establish the perpetuity of the law of God and would reveal the nature and the results of sin.

“From the first the great controversy had been upon the law of God. Satan had sought to prove that God was unjust, that His law was faulty, and that the good of the universe required it to be changed. In attacking the law he aimed to overthrow the authority of its Author. In the controversy it was to be shown whether the divine statutes were defective and subject to change, or perfect and immutable.

“When Satan was thrust out of heaven, he determined to make the earth his kingdom. When he tempted and overcame Adam and Eve, he thought that he had gained possession of this world; "because," said he, "they have chosen me as their ruler." He claimed that it was impossible that forgiveness should be granted to the sinner, and therefore the fallen race were his rightful subjects, and the world was his. But God gave His own dear Son-- one equal with Himself--to bear the penalty of transgression, and thus He provided a way by which they might be restored to His favor, and brought back to their Eden home. Christ undertook to redeem man and to rescue the world from the grasp of Satan. The great controversy begun in heaven was to be decided in the very world, on the very same field, that Satan claimed as his.

“It was the marvel of all the universe that Christ should humble Himself to save fallen man. That He who had passed from star to star, from world to world, superintending all, by His providence supplying the needs of every order of being in His vast creation--that He should consent to leave His glory and take upon Himself human nature, was a mystery which the sinless intelligences of other worlds desired to understand. When Christ came to our world in the form of humanity, all were intensely interested in following Him as He traversed, step by step, the bloodstained path from the manger to Calvary. Heaven marked the insult and mockery that He received, and knew that it was at Satan's instigation. They marked the work of counteragencies going forward; Satan constantly pressing darkness, sorrow, and suffering upon the race, and Christ counteracting it. They watched the battle between light and darkness as it waxed stronger. And as Christ in His expiring agony upon the cross cried out, "It is finished" (John 19:30), a shout of triumph rang through every world and through heaven itself. The great contest that had been so long in progress in this world was now decided, and Christ was conqueror. His death had answered the question whether the Father and the Son had sufficient love for man to exercise self-denial and a spirit of sacrifice. Satan had revealed his true character as a liar and a murderer. It was seen that the very same spirit with which he had ruled the children of men who were under his power, he would have manifested if permitted to control the intelligences of heaven. With one voice the loyal universe united in extolling the divine administration.” PP, 68, 69

LAW NOT ABOLISHED AT THE CROSS

“If the law could be changed, man might have been saved without the sacrifice of Christ; but the fact that it was necessary for Christ to give His life for the fallen race, proves that the law of God will not release the sinner from its claims upon him. It is demonstrated that the wages of sin is death.
When Christ died, the destruction of Satan was made certain. But if the law was abolished at the cross, as many claim, then the agony and death of God's dear Son were endured only to give to Satan just what he asked; then the prince of evil triumphed, his charges against the divine government were sustained. The very fact that Christ bore the penalty of man's transgression is a mighty argument to all created intelligences that the law is changeless; that God is righteous, merciful, and self-denying; and that infinite justice and mercy unite in the administration of His government.

LAW NOT CHANGED AFTER THE FALL OF MAN
(The Law and the Covenants)

“Adam and Eve, at their creation, had a knowledge of the law of God; they were acquainted with its claims upon them; its precepts were written upon their hearts. When man fell by transgression the law was not changed, but a remedial system was established to bring him back to obedience. The promise of a Saviour was given, and sacrificial offerings pointing forward to the death of Christ as the great sin offering were established. But had the law of God never been transgressed, there would have been no death, and no need of a Saviour; consequently there would have been no need of sacrifices.

“Adam taught his descendants the law of God, and it was handed down from father to son through successive generations. But notwithstanding the gracious provision for man's redemption, there were few who accepted it and rendered obedience. By transgression the world became so vile that it was necessary to cleanse it by the Flood from its corruption. The law was preserved by Noah and his family, and Noah taught his descendants the Ten Commandments. As men again departed from God, the Lord chose Abraham, of whom He declared, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. To him was given the rite of circumcision, which was a sign that those who received it were devoted to the service of God--a pledge that they would remain separate from idolatry, and would obey the law of God. The failure of Abraham's descendants to keep this pledge, as shown in their disposition to form alliances with the heathen and adopt their practices, was the cause of their sojourn and bondage in Egypt. But in their intercourse with idolaters, and their forced submission to the Egyptians, the divine precepts became still further corrupted with the vile and cruel teachings of heathenism. Therefore when the Lord brought them forth from Egypt, He came down upon Sinai, enshrouded in glory and surrounded by His angels, and in awful majesty spoke His law in the hearing of all the people.

“He did not even then trust His precepts to the memory of a people who were prone to forget His requirements, but wrote them upon tables of stone. He would remove from Israel all possibility of mingling heathen traditions with His holy precepts, or of confounding His requirements with human ordinances or customs. But He did not stop with giving them the precepts of the Decalogue. The people had shown themselves so easily led astray that He would leave no door of temptation unguarded. Moses was commanded to write, as God should bid him, judgments and laws giving minute instruction as to what was required. These directions relating to the duty of the people to God, to one another, and to the stranger were only the principles of the Ten Commandments amplified and given in a specific manner, that none need err. They were designed to guard the sacredness of the ten precepts engraved on the tables of stone.

“If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall, preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses.

“The sacrificial system, committed to Adam, was also perverted by his descendants. Superstition, idolatry, cruelty, and licentiousness corrupted the simple and significant service that God had appointed. Through long intercourse with idolaters the people of Israel had mingled many heathen customs with their worship; therefore the Lord gave them at Sinai definite instruction concerning the sacrificial service. After the completion of the tabernacle He communicated with Moses from the cloud of glory above the mercy seat, and gave him full directions concerning the system of offerings and the forms of worship to be maintained in the sanctuary. The ceremonial law was thus given to Moses, and by him written in a book. But the law of Ten Commandments spoken from Sinai had been written by God Himself on the tables of stone, and was sacredly preserved in the ark.” PP, 363, 364

God Bless,

--Ya'nar :Princess:
Not much more I can add to that. God Bless

[billwald]

Your page numbers refer to what book?

Christ referred the rich ruler to the Mosiac Covenant because the Mosiac Covenant was God's contract for people living in Israel.

If the Mosiac Covenant applied to every locality then how were the people living in North America to go to the Temple 3 times a year?

“If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall, preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision."

Assumes facts not in evidence.

“The sacrificial system, committed to Adam,"

Assumes facts not in evidence. Far as we know Adam never offered a sacrifice. Is this Mormon theology or something similar?

[God_Is_Truth]

Yes. But that doesn't mean the law only applied to one group, and not to all people.

GIT, remember when the rich young ruler came to Christ and asked what he must do to have eternal life? Christ's reply was, ". . . what do the commandments say?"

Christ was a man born under the law. we in the body of Christ are not under law. thus, the two situations are not equivalent and the one cannot be used to establish the other.


I have a counter question for you: Where in the scriptures does it say the law isn't for the entire world, but only for the Hebrews?

Romans 2:14


BTW, I've been working on a post concerning this exact problem. I will send it along in hopes it will help. Just remember, it's not exactly how I intend to post this material.

does that mean you agree with what you quoted?

(long posts are tedious for future reference, especially when the material is not your own)


Many today mistakenly believe in Sunday-sacredness as the only true Sabbath for Christians. What they fail to grasp is that the law was created for EVERYONE. Not just for the Jews. One indication of this is in the wording of the 4th commandment:

EXODUS 20:10 “But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates”—in other words, observing the law is what God expects from ALL of us

the assumptionhere is since it applies to the "stranger that is within thy gates" it therefore applies to all gentiles, even those outside of the gates, as well as the body of Christ.

it has not been established here that it applies firstly to all Gentiles, let alone to the body of Christ. all it says is that those who are of Israel directly, or those "just visiting" are under obligation to observe it. there is no indication that once those who were inside the gate left, that they were expected to continue to observe the 7th Day as Holy. nor is there any justification here for why this would apply to the Body of Christ who is neither Israel, nor Gentile.


“The law was not spoken at this time exclusively for the benefit of the Hebrews. God honored them by making them the guardians and keepers of His law, but it was to be held as a sacred trust for the whole world. The precepts of the Decalogue are adapted to all mankind, and they were given for the instruction and government of all. Ten precepts, brief, comprehensive, and authoritative, cover the duty of man to God and to his fellow man; and all based upon the great fundamental principle of love. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." Luke 10:27. See also Deuteronomy 6:4, 5; Leviticus 19:18. In the Ten Commandments these principles are carried out in detail, and made applicable to the condition and circumstances of man.” PP, p. 305

this is all an assumption.


Thus in every age, from the midst of apostasy and rebellion, God gathers out a people that are true to Him--a people "in whose heart is His law." Isaiah 51:7.

the assumption is that God gathers those people " in every age".


“There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and His priesthood.
This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Colossians 2:14.

all an assumption.


But concerning the law of Ten Commandments the psalmist declares, "Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89.

"thy word" is what stands forever, not the 10 commandments. another assumption.


And Christ Himself says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. . . . Verily I say unto you"--making the assertion as emphatic as possible—"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17, 18. Here He teaches, not merely what the claims of God's law had been, and were then, but that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages.

no big suprise considering he was a man under the law. but the problem is that we in the body of Christ are not under law. thus, this argument plays no relevence with regards to us.


“While the Saviour's death brought to an end the law of types and shadows, it did not in the least detract from the obligation of the moral law. On the contrary, the very fact that it was necessary for Christ to die in order to atone for the transgression of that law, proves it to be immutable.

no one is arguing that one should not conduct themselves in a godly manner. the assumption here is that "moral law" means "the 10 commandments". that it was necessary for Christ to die says nothing about the law itself except that it fulfilled it's purpose by "increasing transgressions".


“Those who claim that Christ came to abrogate the law of God and to do away with the Old Testament, speak of the Jewish age as one of darkness, and represent the religion of the Hebrews as consisting of mere forms and ceremonies. But this is an error.

better re-read Hebrews 10:1


It was He who revealed Himself to the patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses understood the gospel.

this has not been established.


“If the law could be changed, man might have been saved without the sacrifice of Christ; but the fact that it was necessary for Christ to give His life for the fallen race, proves that