Did Judas Iscariot Go To Heaven?

[Mr. 5020]

The title says it all.

[beanieboy]

Wouldn't you have to assume he did?

Let's say that he had a change of heart.

Jesus wouldn't have been sacrifced, and would not have died for anyone's sins, which wouldn't have granted eternal salvation to anyone.

[Four O'Clock]

...19th century theologian George MacDonald in a book of his sermons "Creation in Christ" seemed to think so saying, I believe, that when he breathed his last breath he..."fled to the tender lap of Jesus". I'm pretty busy right now but I'll try and see exactly what his reasoning was.

[Sold Out]

No, Judas did not go to heaven. He never saw Jesus as the Messiah and only repented (remorse/metamellomai in greek) over betraying an innocent man.

[Crow]

We don't know what went on in Judas Iscariot's mind. We only know that he committed suicide. I sort of think that he didn't, but there is no way to be sure.

[Aimiel]

I believe the only difference between Peter and Judas is that Peter found a place of repentance. Had Judas repented, I don't believe he would have killed himself.

[Crow]

Or, he could have realized what he did, and not been able to live with it. I don't think we can know until we see whether he is there or not. I tend to think that he is not, but I don't know.

[Berean Todd]

Obviously there is no way to know for sure, but I would say the weight of the Biblical evidence is that, no, he did not go to heaven.

[Mr. 5020]

Hmm...interesting thoughts.

[godrulz]

Remorse is not repentant faith.

Acts 1 talks about his wicked fall.

Jn. 17:12 calls him a son of perdition/hell (KJV).

[Frank Ernest]

The final judgment on the condition of a soul is God's. Matthew 7:1-2.

Acts 1:18 suggests that Judas may have had some help with hanging himself. Very few people who hang themselves would "falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

[Aimiel]

The final judgment on the condition of a soul is God's. Matthew 7:1-2.

Acts 1:18 suggests that Judas may have had some help with hanging himself. Very few people who hang themselves would "falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."That's why I put, "I don't know," in my answer, although I would guess that he died lost.

[godrulz]

The final judgment on the condition of a soul is God's. Matthew 7:1-2.

Acts 1:18 suggests that Judas may have had some help with hanging himself. Very few people who hang themselves would "falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

It has been suggested that he hung himself from a tree overhanging a cliff. The branch broke and humpty dumpty fell down. There is no need to speculate on a third party helper.

[Aimiel]

I don't doubt but that the tree that he hanged himself on was ashamed to hold him up.

[keypurr]

Do you know anyone in the NT besides Jesus that went to heaven?

[godrulz]

Do you know anyone in the NT besides Jesus that went to heaven?

Thief on cross, Peter, Paul, James, John, etc.

[Frank Ernest]

It has been suggested that he hung himself from a tree overhanging a cliff. The branch broke and humpty dumpty fell down. There is no need to speculate on a third party helper.
All due respect, godrulz, but what would be the need to speculate that the "branch broke?"
Matthew 27:5 doesn't say that or suggest it.
Acts 1:18 doesn't say that or suggest it.

Forensic Question: Under what circumstances would a man falling headlongand striking the ground suffer bursting asunder in the midst? He hanged himself. If the branch broke, he would have dropped feet first, right? Pardon the flip comment, but are you suggesting that the branch broke, Judas did a half-gainer to "fall headlong", and then was "burst asunder in the midst" as it says in Acts 1:18?

With all the plotting and scheming done by the priests, would you have me believe that they wouldn't cover their butts by keeping an eye on Judas, especially after he returned the money? Judas could tell his story and there would be doo-doo abounding, no? :think: Judas was a witness to the plot. Matthew 26:14-16. Would you have me believe that the chief priests, who did not stop at perpetrating the murder of the Christ, would hesitate at making sure there were no outside witnesses to what they were doing?

Back to the main question, I don't know and I voted "I don't know." God knows and that's fine by me.

[godrulz]

I would think the Spirit might inspire the recording of the leader's further involvement is making sure Judas was dead. It would reveal more of their evil. The tree may have overhung a cliff. He would not just crumple to the ground feet first. He would tumble down a rocky slope, bursting his guts. I read this idea many years ago in an apologetic or apparent Bible discrepancy book to show how he could possible hang and burst. It seems like a reasonable theory. I cannot remember the details of the evidence. Regardless, the Word is not contradictory. There is an explanation. I like this one better than saying aliens gutted him.

God alone knows the last breaths of a man. I think the weight of evidence is that Satan had entered Judas, and his last act was remorse and hopelessness, not repentant faith in the one He fatally betrayed. Scripture does not hint that Judas was redeemed. I imagine it would be recorded as evidence of God's love and mercy in a hopeless situation. We cannot argue from silence, but Jesus said he was a son of hell, a betrayer (vs believer), and Acts says he went to his own place (does not sound like heaven). Judas was not remembered as a saint or martyr. He was simply shown to be a 'devil' and replaced by a godly person in Acts.

[keypurr]

Thief on cross, Peter, Paul, James, John, etc.
The thief did not go to Paridise That Day, neither did Jesus. I don't recall Peter, Paul, James or John mentioned in scripture going to heaven YET either.

[godrulz]

I thought the question was if they were going to heaven instead of hell. Regardless, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Lord is in heaven. There will be a future bodily resurrection, but the spirit-souls of dead NT saints are now in the presence of the Lord in heaven.

[Frank Ernest]

The thief did not go to Paridise That Day, neither did Jesus. I don't recall Peter, Paul, James or John mentioned in scripture going to heaven YET either.
Luke 23:43.

[julie21]

I agree wholeheartedly with Frank...Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him," Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
No lovelier words or promise could that thief have heard anywhere in his life!
Amen and Halellujah!!!

[Ninjashadow]

The final judgment on the condition of a soul is God's. Matthew 7:1-2.

Acts 1:18 suggests that Judas may have had some help with hanging himself. Very few people who hang themselves would "falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

To my understanding, it is believe that Judas hung himself from a tree branch overhaning a cliff and when he hung himself, his weight caused the tree branch to break and he fell upong a rock.

[Ninjashadow]

My apologies, I just noticed that this topic has been introduced.

[Ninjashadow]

All due respect, godrulz, but what would be the need to speculate that the "branch broke?"
Matthew 27:5 doesn't say that or suggest it.
Acts 1:18 doesn't say that or suggest it.

Forensic Question: Under what circumstances would a man falling headlongand striking the ground suffer bursting asunder in the midst? He hanged himself. If the branch broke, he would have dropped feet first, right? Pardon the flip comment, but are you suggesting that the branch broke, Judas did a half-gainer to "fall headlong", and then was "burst asunder in the midst" as it says in Acts 1:18?

With all the plotting and scheming done by the priests, would you have me believe that they wouldn't cover their butts by keeping an eye on Judas, especially after he returned the money? Judas could tell his story and there would be doo-doo abounding, no? :think: Judas was a witness to the plot. Matthew 26:14-16. Would you have me believe that the chief priests, who did not stop at perpetrating the murder of the Christ, would hesitate at making sure there were no outside witnesses to what they were doing?

Back to the main question, I don't know and I voted "I don't know." God knows and that's fine by me.

This makes sense, but both are actually possible. Let's say that the branch did break, but not all the way through, the rope slips down the branch, catches for a second and kind of flips him over. I have know clue if that's eve close (or even makes sense for that matter), but it's just a thought.

[Aimiel]

The thief did not go to Paridise That Day, neither did Jesus.[/B]I wonder what you mean, here? Do you mean that you believe Jesus to be a liar? Do you have 'religious' interpretations of Scripture confounding your thinking such that you dare to say to God, "You can't do (this or that)?" He can't be put in a bottle. You can't force The Almighty God into a pigeonhole. I believe, from this and other verses, that 'Paradise' is the place that the saints of the ages (BC) went to await Jesus' sermon to them. I believe that since they were the first to be told the 'good news' of redemption, that they will rise first (upon Jesus' ascension to Heaven) and that we, who are alive and remain, will be caught up together with them, to meet with The Lord in the air. I believe that moment (called 'the rapture') is something that took place for those who have died (in faith) the moment that they died, and will happen for those who will be alive upon the fulfillment of His Promise (when He gathers His Elect from the four winds) 'shortly' after their ascension.

[keypurr]

I thought the question was if they were going to heaven instead of hell. Regardless, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Lord is in heaven. There will be a future bodily resurrection, but the spirit-souls of dead NT saints are now in the presence of the Lord in heaven.
I would be interested in knowing how you came to that conclusion.
I think there is a differance between th soul and the spirit. But that would make another good thread. :think:

[keypurr]

I wonder what you mean, here? Do you mean that you believe Jesus to be a liar? Do you have 'religious' interpretations of Scripture confounding your thinking such that you dare to say to God, "You can't do (this or that)?" He can't be put in a bottle. You can't force The Almighty God into a pigeonhole. I believe, from this and other verses, that 'Paradise' is the place that the saints of the ages (BC) went to await Jesus' sermon to them. I believe that since they were the first to be told the 'good news' of redemption, that they will rise first (upon Jesus' ascension to Heaven) and that we, who are alive and remain, will be caught up together with them, to meet with The Lord in the air. I believe that moment (called 'the rapture') is something that took place for those who have died (in faith) the moment that they died, and will happen for those who will be alive upon the fulfillment of His Promise (when He gathers His Elect from the four winds) 'shortly' after their ascension.

No, Jesus is not a lier. But the translators are. Paradise is in heaven. Jesus dais he had not been to heaven YET. There fore the commar in the Thief verse is in error. Paridise is where the Tree of Life is, and that is in heaven.
No one can tell God to do this or that, I do not understand what your implying here.
I do not believe in a secret rapture. All saints will be raised at once when he comes. All wait in the grave for his coming.

[Aimiel]

What makes you think that Paradise (at least at the time of Jesus' crucifiction) is Heaven? He told the thief that he would be with Him, in Paradise, from the cross. He is Truth. How could He lie. If He were to say, right now, "It is dark," the sun would have to go out. His Word is Truth. Paradise (I believe) was what was left over of the garden of Eden, at the time, and had not yet been 'annexed' into Heaven. He told Mary, "Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to My Father," when she met Him near the tomb. How could He have been to Heaven, withouth ascending to The Father?

I don't know about you, but I'm not in a grave. The saints were raised when Jesus was crucified. The Scriptures spoke of this. They also spoke of the fact that at the rapture (I don't believe in a 'secret' rapture, either) the dead in Christ will rise first. I believe that the fact that Scriptures say that to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord means that at death we ascend into Heaven. I also believe that time is perceived differenly in the Spirit Realm. The life we live on this earth and even all of history is but a vapor, an instant in time, compared to eternity.

[keypurr]

I agree wholeheartedly with Frank...Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him," Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
No lovelier words or promise could that thief have heard anywhere in his life!
Amen and Halellujah!!!
I know the verse very well but for the sake of an argument consider the commar in the wrong place by the translators.
" Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."
This fits better to what Christ said "Touch me not, for I have not assended to my father.

Christ was not in Paridise that day
Rev 2:7 Tree of life in the midst of Paridise
Rev 22:1,2 Tree of Life by the throne.
Paridise must be in heaven (the third heaven) where his Father is.
Three days later Christ said he had not ascended to his father (John 20:17)

[keypurr]

What makes you think that Paradise (at least at the time of Jesus' crucifiction) is Heaven? He told the thief that he would be with Him, in Paradise, from the cross. He is Truth. How could He lie. If He were to say, right now, "It is dark," the sun would have to go out. His Word is Truth. Paradise (I believe) was what was left over of the garden of Eden, at the time, and had not yet been 'annexed' into Heaven. He told Mary, "Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to My Father," when she met Him near the tomb. How could He have been to Heaven, withouth ascending to The Father?

I don't know about you, but I'm not in a grave. The saints were raised when Jesus was crucified. The Scriptures spoke of this. They also spoke of the fact that at the rapture (I don't believe in a 'secret' rapture, either) the dead in Christ will rise first. I believe that the fact that Scriptures say that to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord means that at death we ascend into Heaven. I also believe that time is perceived differenly in the Spirit Realm. The life we live on this earth and even all of history is but a vapor, an instant in time, compared to eternity.
Friend, I think that the translators errored. They are only human and I think the English language must be hard to translate to.

I think it says the graves were opened and some were raise and seen. However it does not say that they ascended to heaven. Everyone who dies will sleep in the grave til he comes. It will seem like only a second, but it could be many years. At death, the spirit (breath) goes back to God, The body decays, but the soul sleeps.

[Aimiel]

Sorry, but I don't believe that they were awakened to have to face death again. The Bible says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this, the judgement. I also believe that the moment we die (if we die before the rapture) we will ascend to that moment in the sky where we meet with The Lord in the air, and it will be about three seconds on God's Clock that go by before the rapture occurs (relative to everyone who has died who will meet with The Lord for that short period of time before the rapture occurs) and then The Marriage Supper of The Lamb will begin. It will be seven years long (by earth time) but will be very short (by God's Time) and when we come back, the Statute of Limitations will not have expired, so we cannot yet be declared legally dead, and our property will still be ours.

[godrulz]

Sorry, but I don't believe that they were awakened to have to face death again. The Bible says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this, the judgement. I also believe that the moment we die (if we die before the rapture) we will ascend to that moment in the sky where we meet with The Lord in the air, and it will be about three seconds on God's Clock that go by before the rapture occurs (relative to everyone who has died who will meet with The Lord for that short period of time before the rapture occurs) and then The Marriage Supper of The Lamb will begin. It will be seven years long (by earth time) but will be very short (by God's Time) and when we come back, the Statute of Limitations will not have expired, so we cannot yet be declared legally dead, and our property will still be ours.

I think the Marriage Supper will be later during the Tribulation time frame. There will be Trib. Saints who die during this time. The Bema Seat judgment of believer's works also takes place first. We come back with the Lord at the Second Coming in glorified bodies. I do not think we need our property. Those who come out of the Trib. in physical bodies will continue on into the Millennial kingdom on earth. They can have my house. Eventually, the New Jerusalem comes down and hovers over the earth after the Millennium.

[Aimiel]

Yes, the tribulation will take place during the seven-year Marriage Supper. There will be tribulation saints who come to the party late, and there will be saints proven at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, when Satan is released for a 'little season'. I'll take your house, if you're not going to use it to live in, or to bring God glory with, during the 1,000 years. I could take vacations there. We will need our property, just like we do now. Yes, we'll have glorified bodies, so we will be able to go to Heaven, when we want, but we will also rule and reign with The Lord over this earth, and that will take a good bit of work. We've got a lot of mess to clean up.

[godrulz]

All but 144,000 JWs think they will live on paradise earth. They will spend centuries cleaning up this mess. Many have janitorial businesses now to make time for their door to door work. Their paradise sounds like hell to me. After the millennium, there will be a new heaven and earth. During the millennium, I do not want to be doing salvage work.

[Aimiel]

I want to do anything The Lord directs, and I believe that at least part of that will be cleaning up what we've done, in error, to His Paradise, which He gave us dominion over. I also don't think it will be drudgery, but ministry. Part of what we'll do will be to open our homes up to travellers. Each home will be a ministry of hospitality and healing for all. Anyone with any problems will be able to depend upon their neighbor. We will become our 'brother's keeper' like Cain's defensive question to God alluded to. We will look out for one another, rather than look to cut each other's throats for profit.

[Timothy]

I don't believe that Judas was ever saved in the first place, i.e.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

[godrulz]

I don't believe that Judas was ever saved in the first place, i.e.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

6:71 "He meant Judas...who, though one of the 12, was LATER to betray Him."

Jesus chose the 12 after praying to the Father for wisdom. He did not chose a devil to be entrusted with His ministry. Judas BECAME a devil on the verge of betraying Jesus (Jn. 13:27 only then did Satan enter into him).

I believe Judas was initially a disciple/believer. The Son of God would not chose a reprobate to be part of His inner circle after praying to God about it. Those who believe in Calvinism's TULIP, must assume Judas was never saved or was predestined from all eternity to be the Betrayer. Open Theists propose an alternate understanding that seems to resonate with the biblical record. If OSAS is not a biblical teaching, then it is possible Judas was 'saved' and later became apostate. The biblical record seems to indicate Judas was not saved in the end, regardless.

[keypurr]

Sorry, but I don't believe that they were awakened to have to face death again. The Bible says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this, the judgement. I also believe that the moment we die (if we die before the rapture) we will ascend to that moment in the sky where we meet with The Lord in the air, and it will be about three seconds on God's Clock that go by before the rapture occurs (relative to everyone who has died who will meet with The Lord for that short period of time before the rapture occurs) and then The Marriage Supper of The Lamb will begin. It will be seven years long (by earth time) but will be very short (by God's Time) and when we come back, the Statute of Limitations will not have expired, so we cannot yet be declared legally dead, and our property will still be ours.

Don't you believe in the second resuriction?

If when we die we go to heaven why is he coming back to raise the dead?

It's nice to think that our loved ones are with him now, But I think they lie in wait for him to come. Is it not said that King David is still in his tomb?

I have no idea what you are talking about a seven year period??????

[Aimiel]

I believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. You can't tell me that you believe that people are actually trapped in their rotting flesh until it is ressurrected, do you? What about people whose ashes are scattered, is their spirit fragmented and asleep in those molecules, here and there throughout the earth? I don't think so. We're trying to understand what the 'clock' in eternity will be like and we don't even understand time in the temporal realm. I believe that He is coming back to raise the dead, but also believe that time is organized as God wills in the spirit realm.

The tribulation is seven years long. Daniel's 70th week of years, duh.

[godrulz]

Resurrection in Scripture is always a PHYSICAL resurrection (bodily). We are spirits (God-conscious) living in bodies. Death is separation of spirit/body, but in the end, God will give us glorified bodies. The soul is the immaterial part and includes will, intellect, and emotions (personality). Spirit-soul are essentially one. The tripartite nature of man is seen in I Thess. 5:23 "May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless..." Also see Heb. 4:12 The Word divides spirit, soul, body.

[keypurr]

I believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. You can't tell me that you believe that people are actually trapped in their rotting flesh until it is ressurrected, do you? What about people whose ashes are scattered, is their spirit fragmented and asleep in those molecules, here and there throughout the earth? I don't think so. We're trying to understand what the 'clock' in eternity will be like and we don't even understand time in the temporal realm. I believe that He is coming back to raise the dead, but also believe that time is organized as God wills in the spirit realm.

The tribulation is seven years long. Daniel's 70th week of years, duh.

Aimiel quote The tribulation is seven years long. Daniel's 70th week of years, duh

You have no idea what Daniel is telling us. The prophecy which is 490 years long has been fullilled.

Your not the prophet you think you are.

[keypurr]

Resurrection in Scripture is always a PHYSICAL resurrection (bodily). We are spirits (God-conscious) living in bodies. Death is separation of spirit/body, but in the end, God will give us glorified bodies. The soul is the immaterial part and includes will, intellect, and emotions (personality). Spirit-soul are essentially one. The tripartite nature of man is seen in I Thess. 5:23 "May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless..." Also see Heb. 4:12 The Word divides spirit, soul, body.

It is important to seperate the spirit, soul and body.
Fear him who can destroy the soul. All souls are mine said the Lord.
The spirit is the breath within you. The body goes back to dust.

[godrulz]

Aimiel quote The tribulation is seven years long. Daniel's 70th week of years, duh

You have no idea what Daniel is telling us. The prophecy which is 490 years long has been fullilled.

Your not the prophet you think you are.

Some of Daniel's prophecies were historically fulfilled (69). The last week (70th) ties into future events prophesied in Revelation that have not happened yet (Great Tribulation) immediately before the visible return of Christ to set up the Millennial kingdom.

[godrulz]

It is important to seperate the spirit, soul and body.
Fear him who can destroy the soul. All souls are mine said the Lord.
The spirit is the breath within you. The body goes back to dust.

Spirit is more than breath. It is the God-conscious part of man.

The soul is self-conscious.

The body allows us to be world conscious (senses).

[Mr. 5020]

Have the 4 people who answered "I don't know" made a decision yet?

[keypurr]

Some of Daniel's prophecies were historically fulfilled (69). The last week (70th) ties into future events prophesied in Revelation that have not happened yet (Great Tribulation) immediately before the visible return of Christ to set up the Millennial kingdom.

I disagree, the 70th week is about his First coming and his life til the cross then Stephen being stoned and the word going to the world.

I do agree that the Tribulation will be as you say, BEFORE he comes again.

[karstkid]

Did Judas go to Heaven?

Jesus answered that question in Mark 14:18-25. We read:

“Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me—one who is eating with Me.” They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, “Surely not I?” And He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who dips with Me in the bowl. “For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

Jesus said "woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” It is very clear that Judas did not go to a good place after commiting suicide.

[logos_x]

Did Judas go to Heaven?

Jesus answered that question in Mark 14:18-25. We read:

“Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me—one who is eating with Me.” They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, “Surely not I?” And He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who dips with Me in the bowl. “For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

Jesus said "woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” It is very clear that Judas did not go to a good place after commiting suicide.

Unless Jesus was refering to the suicide itself...I imagine that is exactly how Judas felt when he did it...that it would have been good for that man if he had not been born...

[Aimiel]

The only conclusiong that one can possibly come to when reading that The Lord said that it would have been better for a certain person that he had never been born is that their fate is eternal torment. That is just one scripture which LogosX overlooks (or has heaped himself a whole pile of 'teachers' who show him 'truth' which is actually fables) and there are many, many more.

[keypurr]

Some of Daniel's prophecies were historically fulfilled (69). The last week (70th) ties into future events prophesied in Revelation that have not happened yet (Great Tribulation) immediately before the visible return of Christ to set up the Millennial kingdom.
Friend, I have a bridge for sale. Would you be interested in buying it?

[godrulz]

Friend, I have a bridge for sale. Would you be interested in buying it?

Only after we systematically walk through Daniel 2;7;9, Ezekiel, and Revelation (no time at the moment).

[servantofChrist]

Unless Jesus was refering to the suicide itself...I imagine that is exactly how Judas felt when he did it...that it would have been good for that man if he had not been born...

HELLO EVERYBODY!!! It's probably been a couple of years since I last posted on TOL. Things have definitely changed... it'll take some gettin' use to (pardon my Texas vernacular!).

I have to agree... Jesus would definitely NOT have said about someone who betrayed Him, died, then went to (or, will be in) Heaven, that it would have been better if he had NOT been born.

But this question about Judas leads me to another thought... Many times in my early years in life I had sort of a mental list of who, in my mind, went to Heaven and who went to Hell... you know: Noah, Abraham, Daniel these all went to Heaven, but Cain, Nadab & Abihu, Jezebel... all of these went to (or, will be in) Hell, etc.

But as I got older and gave it a lot more thought, I began to be much more reluctant to be so sure about this subject. Let me show you what I mean:

Can we know for certain that Nadab & Abihu went to (or, will be in) Hell because they offered "strange fire" before the LORD and were consumed by fire from Him? What about Uzzah? He reached out to stablize the Ark of the Covenant when it became unstable as it was being carried along. The penalty for touching it was... God struck him dead immediately, just like Nadab & Abihu. So, is Uzzah going to be in Heaven or Hell??!! Are Nadab & Abihu going to be in Heaven or Hell? Can we really know for sure either way?

And here is a related situation that has ALWAYS vexed me, and, I must confess, has always troubled me in my mind's effort to reconcile it with the fact that God is perfect in all His ways, and that He is a JUST God in each and every occasion His justice is called upon to be executed... somebody please help me out with this one if you can...

We know that if anyone in Israel committed murder, the penalty for that person was death (Lev. 24:17). Yet, when King David murdered Uriah the Hittite - and it was murder - so he could have his wife, Bathsheba, to be his own wife... instead of David being put to death, God took the life of his child. In all of my many years of study of the Scriptures I have not yet been able to "figure this one out"! Anybody have any ideas?

Just some things to think about, that's all.

May the LORD JESUS bless you all...

[Aimiel]

I would suggest that the anointing on David's life, calling and ministry had something to do with that one. Remember, David would not touch God's anointed king, even though it was in his power to do so. He was troubled because he cut Saul's garment, and probably would have lost his promised kingdom had he taken Saul's life. The anointing is far more important than people realize. In The Bible, there's a time described where the Ark of the Covenant is removed from Israel, and The Word of The Lord became 'precious' in that day. It was 'precious' because there was none. We, all to often, don't realize what we have until it is gone. God set David up as king, and took him down. The things that we see in this life we will be spending (literally, The Bible tells us) ages to come exploring the riches of His Grace toward us, in these things.

[logos_x]

The only conclusiong that one can possibly come to when reading that The Lord said that it would have been better for a certain person that he had never been born is that their fate is eternal torment.

The "only" conclusion?
One would have to be quite myopic toward eternal torment as the "only conclusion" you can come to for the words "it would be better for that man to have never been born".

That is just one scripture which LogosX overlooks (or has heaped himself a whole pile of 'teachers' who show him 'truth' which is actually fables) and there are many, many more.

uh-huh.
whatever.

[Aimiel]

That's right, only. I'm not being myopic. You're denying the logic. What scenario might there be that could explain any reason that a man might be better off than not being born, except his judgement? Anyone in Heaven will tell you, they're mighty glad they were born, and everyone in hell wishes they never had been.

[Everglaze]

Uhh...

I don't think Judas entered Heaven...

because he betrayed Jesus and felt guilty afterwards, yet that guilt didn't lead to confession + repentance...it led to suicide.

That's a double no no.

And yes, Judas betraying Jesus was inevitable...anyway.

[godrulz]

Uhh...

I don't think Judas entered Heaven...

because he betrayed Jesus and felt guilty afterwards, yet that guilt didn't lead to confession + repentance...it led to suicide.

That's a double no no.

And yes, Judas betraying Jesus was inevitable...anyway.

It was not inevitable that Judas betray Jesus. He was not predestined to do so trillions of years before he was born. A deterministic world view negates free moral agency and makes God responsible for heinous evil. Judas was not named in the OT. If he would have changed course, someone else would have fulfilled prophecy. As time went on, Jesus knew his heart, and saw that he would betray him. This was not a certainty when he chose him for the inner circle. It was only a possibility. Judas was responsible for his own actions. He was not a puppet.

[Everglaze]

It was not inevitable that Judas betray Jesus. He was not predestined to do so trillions of years before he was born. A deterministic world view negates free moral agency and makes God responsible for heinous evil. Judas was not named in the OT. If he would have changed course, someone else would have fulfilled prophecy. As time went on, Jesus knew his heart, and saw that he would betray him. This was not a certainty when he chose him for the inner circle. It was only a possibility. Judas was responsible for his own actions. He was not a puppet.

I understand where you're coming with that. However, I'm not pointing blame on God for the actions of the individuals. That alone is quite complex to grasp. The other issue is that, if Judas had NOT betrayed Jesus, there still would've been someone else to sell Jesus away. In that case, the situation of Jesus facing crucifixion would be inevitable.

[godrulz]

I understand where you're coming with that. However, I'm not pointing blame on God for the actions of the individuals. That alone is quite complex to grasp. The other issue is that, if Judas had NOT betrayed Jesus, there still would've been someone else to sell Jesus away. In that case, the situation of Jesus facing crucifixion would be inevitable.

Jesus coming to die for man was predestined and in the control of God. The details of who was involved with betraying, pounding nails, etc. are secondary and incidental. There would be more than one way to have his death come to pass (it does not matter if person x or y was involved or not).

[logos_x]

That's right, only. I'm not being myopic. You're denying the logic. What scenario might there be that could explain any reason that a man might be better off than not being born, except his judgement?

Uh...how 'bout feeling so guilty about what you've done that you KILL YOURSELF! Duh!

Anyone in Heaven will tell you, they're mighty glad they were born, and everyone in hell wishes they never had been.

And you ARE being myopic...

[Aimiel]

Such deep thought. Wow!!! Great comeback. Brilliant. What was I thinking?























































Please buy a clue.

[darknights]

What makes you think that Paradise (at least at the time of Jesus' crucifiction) is Heaven? He told the thief that he would be with Him, in Paradise, from the cross. He is Truth. How could He lie. If He were to say, right now, "It is dark," the sun would have to go out. His Word is Truth. Paradise (I believe) was what was left over of the garden of Eden, at the time, and had not yet been 'annexed' into Heaven. He told Mary, "Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to My Father," when she met Him near the tomb. How could He have been to Heaven, withouth ascending to The Father?
.


Jesus body ascension is seperate from his bodily ascension. on the cross Jesus says, into your hands i command my spirit. that day Jesus spirit went to heaven. His body however stayed on earth for another 40 days before ascending. this is why he said that he had not ascending to his father yet because he was talking about his body and not his spirit.

[darknights]

>> - Bible..John..17
17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, BUT the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


seems clear Judas is not in heaven!

[PandaBear317]

I answered "I don't know"... but I did read in a book (Peculiar Treasures by Frederick Beuchner) about a theory that the early church had.

Judas went to hell after he committed suicide. He didn't kill himself out of remorse, though, but he did it out of the hope that he could see Jesus one more time when He "visited" there.

I personally want to believe that, just because I'm to troubled over the fate of Judas otherwise.

[ParsonJefferson]

First of all, since I'm not God I'm not going to take some hard-line on this.

However, I'd have to believe that Judas is NOT in heaven.



There's a difference between remorse and repentance. We see evidence of one, but not of the other.

[godrulz]

I answered "I don't know"... but I did read in a book (Peculiar Treasures by Frederick Beuchner) about a theory that the early church had.

Judas went to hell after he committed suicide. He didn't kill himself out of remorse, though, but he did it out of the hope that he could see Jesus one more time when He "visited" there.

I personally want to believe that, just because I'm to troubled over the fate of Judas otherwise.


Does not compute.

Jesus Christ Superstar has him in white in heaven. This is a false picture.

[godrulz]

First of all, since I'm not God I'm not going to take some hard-line on this.

However, I'd have to believe that Judas is NOT in heaven.



There's a difference between remorse and repentance. We see evidence of one, but not of the other.


We can accept the testimony in the Word of God that he was possessed by the devil in the end and was called a son of perdition/hell. We do not need to compromise the Word for sentimental reasons.

[ParsonJefferson]

We can accept the testimony in the Word of God that he was possessed by the devil in the end and was called a son of perdition/hell. We do not need to compromise the Word for sentimental reasons.

Do you think that's what I'm doing?

[godrulz]

Do you think that's what I'm doing?

Just a friendly reminder to be confidant in the clear statements of Scripture rather than speculate unnecessarily.

I do not know you from Adam. A simple positive affirmation will clarify your convictions about the Bible. We can give you the benefit of the doubt, I suppose.

[ParsonJefferson]

Just a friendly reminder to be confidant in the clear statements of Scripture rather than speculate unnecessarily.

I do not know you from Adam. A simple positive affirmation will clarify your convictions about the Bible. We can give you the benefit of the doubt, I suppose.


I'm still not sure where you're coming from here.

I do happen to be a pastor - full-time now for over 20 years. I'm quite aware of what the Bible says - part of which is that I'm not the judge of people's eternal abodes. Therefore, I really don't spend much time preaching people into heaven or hell.

[godrulz]

I'm still not sure where you're coming from here.

I do happen to be a pastor - full-time now for over 20 years. I'm quite aware of what the Bible says - part of which is that I'm not the judge of people's eternal abodes. Therefore, I really don't spend much time preaching people into heaven or hell.

I agree with the gist of your statement. Too many preachers determine destiny at funerals. I was a pastor and had the integrity to not do that myself.

If the Bible says that Satan or Judas will be in hell/lake of fire, this is affirming what the Bible says, not making wrong judgments. If someone like Hitler rejects Christ and kills himself (true), we can make an authoritative judgment on their destinies based on biblical truth.

We do not know people's hearts. The Bible says that Abraham, David, Noah, Moses, Paul, John, etc. are saints of God. We are not falsely judging to say what the Bible says. Likewise, in this one specific case of Judas, we can affirm the biblical record...he died possessed by Satan and was called a son of hell. We do not need to speculate or judge. We simply need to quote God's view on the issue.

Is this not reasonable? It is not a license to judge other modern people without warrant since God alone knows the heart, mind, and last breath of the person (sometimes we can make a good assessment without playing God/Judge).

[lightninboy]

I just voted "I don't know."

My main hunch is that he was never saved.

However, on the other hand, I would not be too surprised if I were to someday learn that he was saved.

[godrulz]

I just voted "I don't know."

My main hunch is that he was never saved.

However, on the other hand, I would not be too surprised if I were to someday learn that he was saved.


I think he was a true disciple (named as an apostle) who apostasized/fell away, an illustration of non-OSAS truth.

[Bright Raven]

>> - Bible..John..17
17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, BUT the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


seems clear Judas is not in heaven!

I agree. Crystal clear. If Jesus says he is lost, he is lost. Their is no room for debate.

[Lighthouse]

Just because Judas was once lost, does not mean he was unable to become found before he died. The Bible does say he repented.

Matthew 27:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027:3;&version=9;)

[Jackson]

>> - Bible..John..17
17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, BUT the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


seems clear Judas is not in heaven!
It says "While in the world right?" Could it be that Jesus was only talking about while he was in the world? I don't know.

I have to wonder after all the miracles Jesus did if Judas was thinking wow He can do anything so i am going to use this chance to make some change and I know jesus will just do his miracle thing and not let them catch him again. After all the Scribes had their hands on Jesus a couple of other times and Jesus just did his ninja thing and dissapeared.

I know a ton of specualation but who knows?

[bigbang123]

No, Judas did not go to heaven. He never saw Jesus as the Messiah and only repented (remorse/metamellomai in greek) over betraying an innocent man.

moses didn't enter into the promise land because of his sin and the promise land seems to be a symbol of heaven - does that mean moses didn't go to heaven?

Numbers 20
8"Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink."
9So Moses took the rod from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him;
10and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, "Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?"
11Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank.
12But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."

[godrulz]

Just because Judas was once lost, does not mean he was unable to become found before he died. The Bible does say he repented.

Matthew 27:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027:3;&version=9;)


Remorse is regret. Many unbelievers die with remorse. The verse is talking about Judas regretting his action, not repenting from betrayal and returning to a love, faith, and obedience in Christ as Lord and Savior. That is not in the context at all as confirmed by subsequent statements about him and his actions, including suicide.

Repentance is a change of mind and will. Judas did not have this. This is why the last record is that he was possessed of Satan and is now a son of perdition/hell (Acts).

[Lighthouse]

Remorse is regret. Many unbelievers die with remorse. The verse is talking about Judas regretting his action, not repenting from betrayal and returning to a love, faith, and obedience in Christ as Lord and Savior. That is not in the context at all as confirmed by subsequent statements about him and his actions, including suicide.

Repentance is a change of mind and will. Judas did not have this. This is why the last record is that he was possessed of Satan and is now a son of perdition/hell (Acts).
Actually, in the KJV it says that Judas "repented." If you had followed the link, you would know that. Also, the last record of Judas is not of him possessed of Satan, but that Satan left him.

[godrulz]

Actually, in the KJV it says that Judas "repented." If you had followed the link, you would know that. Also, the last record of Judas is not of him possessed of Satan, but that Satan left him.


This is why we do Greek word studies rather than relying on KJV only.

One can also repent or change one's mind without embracing Christ for redemption.

What about 'son of perdition/hell' in Acts?

[Lighthouse]

This is why we do Greek word studies rather than relying on KJV only.

One can also repent or change one's mind without embracing Christ for redemption.

What about 'son of perdition/hell' in Acts?
It said he was, at one time, a son of perdition, not that he remained one.

[godrulz]

It said he was, at one time, a son of perdition, not that he remained one.


Really? Is this an argument from silence or speculation? I see no biblical evidence that Judas returned to His Master. If he would have been reconciled, he would not have hung himself in remorse, but would have lived on rejoicing at the mercy of Christ. The biblical record surely would have given some clues that Judas returned to his former standing. I think the tenses would indicate that he was and remained a son of perdition. It is stated matter-of-fact as they went to replace him. He was not in good standing. Obviously Satan did not go to the grave with him, but there is no record that Judas did not remain under his spell to his horrible death as the Betrayer of Christ.

I am not sure why are you not accepting the traditional, self-evident view. Is it related to OSAS issues (which you can get around with Bob Hill's Mid-Acts ideas)? Universalism?

[Lighthouse]

Really? Is this an argument from silence or speculation? I see no biblical evidence that Judas returned to His Master. If he would have been reconciled, he would not have hung himself in remorse, but would have lived on rejoicing at the mercy of Christ. The biblical record surely would have given some clues that Judas returned to his former standing. I think the tenses would indicate that he was and remained a son of perdition. It is stated matter-of-fact as they went to replace him. He was not in good standing. Obviously Satan did not go to the grave with him, but there is no record that Judas did not remain under his spell to his horrible death as the Betrayer of Christ.

I am not sure why are you not accepting the traditional, self-evident view. Is it related to OSAS issues (which you can get around with Bob Hill's Mid-Acts ideas)? Universalism?
It is clearly stated that Satan left Judas before he returned the thirty pieces.

[godrulz]

It is clearly stated that Satan left Judas before he returned the thirty pieces.


Verse? The demons left the pigs too, but that did not make them saved nor the Holy Spirit entering them. Satan did his dirty work and moved on. It does not mean that Judas was restored (big assumption without evidence).

[Lighthouse]

Verse?
I can't remember. I'll have to look it up.

The demons left the pigs too, but that did not make them saved nor the Holy Spirit entering them.
They were pigs!

Satan did his dirty work and moved on. It does not mean that Judas was restored (big assumption without evidence).
But he repented.

[godrulz]

I can't remember. I'll have to look it up.


They were pigs!


But he repented.

Mt. 26:24 Jesus pronounced woe and said it would be better if Judas had not been born. This does not sound like a happy ending.

Mt. 27:3 he was seized with remorse (felt bad), not morally repented and returned to loving Jesus. He hanged himself immediately, not a sign of being restored with hope.

Remember from your open theism verses that God 'repents'. We can also translate it as 'relents' for clarity. God does not repent of sin, but the semantic range of the word can also mean change of mind, not just moral repentance as a condition of forgiveness. Many people regret their sins or crimes while they are in jail. The same word 'repent' can be used, but that does not automatically mean that it is a spiritual repentance leading to life.

We see Peter restored by the Savior as his remorse for denying Christ led to godly repentance. We see Judas possessed by Satan (not just attacked like Peter was) and John emphasizing that it was night/dark in contrast to light. Acts 1:25 talks about Judas going to the place where he belongs. If we read between the lines (whole context of the events), it is a nice way of saying he did not go to heaven, but to hell. Acts 1:18 reminds us he used his money from wickedness to buy a field where he died as the Betrayer.

Jn. 17:12 This is where Judas is called a 'son of perdition' or child of hell. Jesus said none of the disciples were lost as God protected them and gave them to Jesus EXCEPT the one DOOMED to destruction (NIV, not literal Greek) so that Scripture would be fulfilled. Even as an Open Theist, at this point, we see how Jesus knew Judas was on his way to destruction. Satan entering him was the death seal. The same phrase is used by Paul in 2 Thess. 2:3 about the antichrist (also opposes Jesus) who ends up in the lake of fire. Judas was like a type of the antichrist, not a model of godly repentance and restoration like Peter was.

I would be happy if Judas had godly repentance evidenced by fruit of repentance, but that does not seem to be the biblical record. I appreciate you being a Berean and getting us looking closer at the Word. Blessings.

[Lighthouse]

Mt. 26:24 Jesus pronounced woe and said it would be better if Judas had not been born. This does not sound like a happy ending.
:think:

Mt. 27:3 he was seized with remorse (felt bad), not morally repented and returned to loving Jesus. He hanged himself immediately, not a sign of being restored with hope.
What is repentance without remorse? He regretted what he had done. He even returned the money. I have every reason to believe he could have very well gone to Abraham's Bosom.

Remember from your open theism verses that God 'repents'. We can also translate it as 'relents' for clarity. God does not repent of sin, but the semantic range of the word can also mean change of mind, not just moral repentance as a condition of forgiveness. Many people regret their sins or crimes while they are in jail. The same word 'repent' can be used, but that does not automatically mean that it is a spiritual repentance leading to life.
If we translate it as "relents" we lose some meaning.

We see Peter restored by the Savior as his remorse for denying Christ led to godly repentance. We see Judas possessed by Satan (not just attacked like Peter was) and John emphasizing that it was night/dark in contrast to light.
And?

Acts 1:25 talks about Judas going to the place where he belongs. If we read between the lines (whole context of the events), it is a nice way of saying he did not go to heaven, but to hell.
Really? What exactly does it say?

Acts 1:18 reminds us he used his money from wickedness to buy a field where he died as the Betrayer.
No he didn't.

Jn. 17:12 This is where Judas is called a 'son of perdition' or child of hell. Jesus said none of the disciples were lost as God protected them and gave them to Jesus EXCEPT the one DOOMED to destruction (NIV, not literal Greek) so that Scripture would be fulfilled. Even as an Open Theist, at this point, we see how Jesus knew Judas was on his way to destruction. Satan entering him was the death seal. The same phrase is used by Paul in 2 Thess. 2:3 about the antichrist (also opposes Jesus) who ends up in the lake of fire. Judas was like a type of the antichrist, not a model of godly repentance and restoration like Peter was.
So you presume to judge what took place while Jesus went to set the captives free?

I would be happy if Judas had godly repentance evidenced by fruit of repentance, but that does not seem to be the biblical record. I appreciate you being a Berean and getting us looking closer at the Word. Blessings.
If you say so.

[godrulz]

The jails are full of people with remorse without biblical repentance. Remorse can be part of repentance, but it is not the equivalent of it.

The righteous compartment of Hades is a different issue than calling Judas a child of hell. He did not go to the righteous compartment.

You will be hard pressed to find someone to agree with your speculative theory. I think the gist of the evidence supports the traditional understanding.

As long as you are not rejecting the authority of Scripture, but simply misinterpreting it, we can call it a day.

[Lighthouse]

The jails are full of people with remorse without biblical repentance. Remorse can be part of repentance, but it is not the equivalent of it.

The righteous compartment of Hades is a different issue than calling Judas a child of hell. He did not go to the righteous compartment.

You will be hard pressed to find someone to agree with your speculative theory. I think the gist of the evidence supports the traditional understanding.

As long as you are not rejecting the authority of Scripture, but simply misinterpreting it, we can call it a day.
I'm not saying he didn't go to hell. I'm just saying that he might not have. I don't know. I wasn't there. Someone can be a son of hell while on this Earth, for a time, and become a child of God, before they die.

[godrulz]

I'm not saying he didn't go to hell. I'm just saying that he might not have. I don't know. I wasn't there. Someone can be a son of hell while on this Earth, for a time, and become a child of God, before they die.


True, but not likely in this case. I would think the Spirit would inspire more clarity if Judas was radically saved in the end as a testament of God's abundant grace. The whole tone of verses about Judas seem to be negative, to the bitter end, and after his death.

[Ps82]

Hello everyone,
I also am not sure whether Judas went to heaven. There are a number of verses that relate to his being a cursed mankind: For example: Matt. 26: The SON of man goeth as it is written of HIM, but woe unto the man by whom the SON of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. Certainly "WOE" is used in the book of Revelation about the judgment upon the Lost people left in the world.

Yet, I think I have found some interesting ideas that may allow some hope for Judas's eternal destination.

Without listing all the scriptual references I'll just share my conclusions.
First, I have found that the 'dust of the ground', that was used to form man's body, is significant stuff used for God's purposes.

For instance God cursed it - FOR MAN'S SAKE (Gen. 3 KJV)

Also, Jesus told his disciples that if they went through a town and the people there rejected the gospel and were mean to them, then the disciples had a choice of shaking off the dust of that town from their feet. When they did this outward act, then on judgment day it would be worse for the people of that town than it was for the people in Sodom and G. at their destruction.

Understanding that creation dust and the dust upon ones feet has to do with destruction ... perhaps even eternal destruction then it makes this next event very significant for Judas.

Jesus began washing the dust from the feet of the disciples. He told them that they would not understand what he was doing at that time, but would later understand. When Peter seemed to question what Jesus was doing, Jesus told him that sometimes people needed a special washing. Jesus told him that he was clean and only needed his feet to be washed.

Most Bible students believe that this may have had something to do with the fact that his disciples were all going to do things that night for which they would want to know that they had been forgiven.(Matt. 26:31-35)

If you study the entire foot-washing event thoroughly (John 13) you will find that Judas was there, and his feet were also washed before he left to betray Jesus. If washing the disciples' feet did have to do with forgiveness for things they would soon do ... then this gift of grace was extended to Judas before he left. In fact Jesus gave a clue as to why he was washing their feet in the first place.

Jesus said to Peter in Jn.13:8 "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me."
vs 10 - "He that is washed needeth not(another washing) save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye(Peter) are clean, but not all (perhaps Jesus meant not all of you here with me)...
vs. 10 For Jesus knew (all) who would betray him (that night). Well, Judas had his feet washed that night, so did our Lord mislead Judas about his forgiveness for that night?

Another observation of mine that relates to Judas also is:
I believe that Jesus, the LAMB of God, was God, therefore when he spoke people and things had to obey him. For example when Satan tempted Jesus, our Lord allowed it for a time. But when Jesus had finished his work of rejecting Satan's lordship over him, then Jesus, as God, simple spoke a command: "Get thee hence (from me). (Then Jesus told Satan why he was being cast away (It is written - Thou(Satan) shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.) Well, obviously, Satan obeyed the command from God and directly left. He had to choice about his situation.

Jn 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him (Judas). Then said (commanded) Jesus(being God) unto him, "That thou doest, do quickly."
vs 31 Therefore, when he(Satan filled Judas) was gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the SON of man glorified, and God is glorified in him."

Now, to whom was Jesus speaking when he gave his command? Was it to Satan who had possessed the body of Judas? Was it to Judas? Both? Could the woe that came to Judas have been the immense fear, sorrow, and regret he felt after Satan was done with him? Did the disciples finally figure out why Jesus took the time to wash their feet that night as he said they would? Did they forgive Judas the way Jesus seems to have forgiven them all?

Jesus told them ALL that he had set an example for them that night at the 'foot washing'. When they would finally understand what it was all about, then he encouraged them to do this: (vs.14)” If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.” Could this mean that they must forgive each other the way HE had forgiven them?

Well, you can see that I have as many questions as I have positive clues ... so I assume I'll know the truth only when I get to the kingdom of heaven.

BTW, there is one place in the Bible where the disciples deliberately choose to shake the dust from their feet. I found it a serious event, but with a touch of humor as well. I'll share the humor of it with anyone who is interested.

[Granite]

Why was Judas even necessary?

[Spitfire]

Why was Judas even necessary?I can't give an authoritative answer to that, but my first guess would be: actually, no.

[Mr. 5020]

Why was Judas even necessary?Who said he was necessary?

[Ps82]

Why was Judas even necessary?

Hi Granite,
I have also asked that question, but chose not to list it in my post above because:

I figured there had to be a good reason for him or God would not have done it that way.

I have not run across any clues that help me with this. Have you?

[Granite]

Hi Granite,
I have also asked that question, but chose not to list it in my post above because:

I figured there had to be a good reason for him or God would not have done it that way.

I have not run across any clues that help me with this. Have you?

As a symbolic represenation of Israel's abandonment of Jesus, Judas is an ideal literary character. In reality his inclusion in the story makes zero sense.

[Ps82]

Hi Granite,

I do have a couple of ideas about why Judas was needed. I have pondered this question before and selected Ps 82 as my favorite chapter in the OT because of what I saw there.

First, can God reject God? We find in the scriptures that the Father and the Holy Spirit were the witnesses at the baptism of Jesus that HE was GOD. God may have selected the LAMB for the sacrifice, but God did not reject his SON. Jesus gave the body of the LAMB willingly. Psalm 82 says this about our Lord. vs. 8 "Arise (from your grave), O God, judge the earth, for thou shalt inherit all nations."

Mankind and Satan are the created beings who could and did reject God ... therefore God allowed both A MAN - indwelt by SATAN - to reject Christ. Perhaps Judas represented the section of humanity that would embrace Satan and partner with him to reject salvation and to receive judgment. Jesus did wash the feet of Judas, but it was before Satan indwelt him!

Here's more "DUST" ideas that pertain to Judas and Satan. In Gen. 3 God cursed Satan to eat of the DUST of the earth for the rest of his LIFE ... which I assume is eternally. Then God cursed that dust of creation - FOR MAN'S SAKE.

If the dust is not circumcised from those human who are to be saved through physical death ... then the cursed dust is devoured by Satan and will go the way Satan goes. When God begins to END ALL THINGS, HE will shake the cursed dust out leaving only what is meant to remain in his kingdom, while lost humanity, who still have their dust upon them, will go into outer darkness with Satan. Satan plus lost humanity will have the same demise in the end. Is it any wonder why Satan argued with an angel over the possession of the physically dead body (the dust) of Moses? Satan thought he had a right to possess it as his meat due to the disobedience of Moses at the Rock of Horeb.

Watch what happens to Satan and to mankind in the end. My comments are inside (...) God spoke these words to a number of individuals standing before HIM at a judgment seat and then seemed to turn his attention toward one individual before him who was NOT A MAN.

Psalm 82:I have said, "Ye (all of you who were created by me who are standing here today) are gods; and ALL of you are children of the most High. BUT ... ye (a special individual) shall die (just) like men, and (specifically puffed up you will) fall like one of the princes.

I think God was talking to Satan ... telling him that the demise that will befall lost humanity will be his own down fall too. So goes man's lost dust ... so goes Satan, who has been cursed to 'eat our dust' eternally.

You see, God did curse the DUST – for man’s sake, but humanity must choose Jesus as their Lord. Have you found any scriptures that tell us that Satan will have a chance to repent and give back the dust of the dead he has swallowed?

[Ps82]

As a symbolic representation of Israel's abandonment of Jesus, Judas is an ideal literary character. In reality his inclusion in the story makes zero sense.

Nice point Granite, but may I tweak it a bit for a believer's perspective?
As a symbolic representation of mankind's abandonment of the LORD, Judas was ideally selected as a sanctified human being that would be used for the purposes of God to represent the mysteries of God' work to save mankind through his mercy while rejecting lost humanity and Satan.

Is it any wonder why Satan attempts to attach himself to a religious human being at the last of his time? Is it any wonder that "a unique being" shows up at the wedding supper of our Lord wearing the wrong garment that possibly still has dust clinging to it ... and this uninvited guest will then be cast out by the father LORD God anyway? I think Satan out of his hopelessness will try to slip into the kingdom by another door ... by his own trickery.. Trying to turn his curse of man's dust into his salvation. But mankind cannot save anyone ... only the Lord Jesus can forgive.

[Granite]

Nice point Granite, but may I tweak it a bit for a believer's perspective?
As a symbolic representation of mankind's abandonment of the LORD, Judas was ideally selected as a sanctified human being that would be used for the purposes of God to represent the mysteries of God' work to save mankind through his mercy while rejecting lost humanity and Satan.

Is it any wonder why Satan attempts to attach himself to a religious human being at the last of his time? Is it any wonder that "a unique being" shows up at the wedding supper of our Lord wearing the wrong garment that possibly still has dust clinging to it ... and this uninvited guest will then be cast out by the father LORD God anyway? I think Satan out of his hopelessness will try to slip into the kingdom by another door ... by his own trickery.. Trying to turn his curse of man's dust into his salvation. But mankind cannot save anyone ... only the Lord Jesus can forgive.

None of this explains why Judas was integral to the story. His presence is unnecessary--as a literary device he makes more sense than actual scheming human being.

[Ps82]

None of this explains why Judas was integral to the story. His presence is unnecessary--as a literary device he makes more sense than actual scheming human being.

This is strictly your own opinion - for not once have you offered scriptural proof for your ideas about this Biblical subject. Your thoughts are solely based on rejection of God and his WORD ... that demonstrates a real lack of credibility on your part.

AT LEAST ... I had evidence from THE BOOK which we were discussing to back up my theories. I do not claim that I am totally correct ... but I do see what I see in what I study. As a Satanist, what do you study? Why do you discuss Biblical scriptures in which you only find intertaining little stories? Isn't this a waste of your good time here on earth?

[godrulz]

Why was Judas even necessary?

Judas was not predestined to be the Betrayer. He started out as a disciple and became a betrayer. Whether he was involved or not, God would ensure that the Lamb of God would die for the sins of man. Another could have been instrumental in the events leading to the cross if Judas had remained faithful. OT prophecies do not name him, but are illustrative after the fact.

[Ps82]

For anyone still reading here and for further clarification about my conclusions:

My point about Judas being needed was that he was 'sanctified' as someone special unto the LORD to demonstrate the Lord's works of salvation for humanity, while the presence of Satan in him was to demonstrate the lack of hope for Satan and the lost still attached to him.

Remember, according to the scriptures ... Judas's feet were washed BEFORE Satan entered him ... I think I have shown where this was possibly a demonstration that Judas was to be forgiven by Jesus and that Satan would not retain his possession grip upon him.

[godrulz]

For anyone still reading here and for further clarification about my conclusions:

My point about Judas being needed was that he was 'sanctified' as someone special unto the LORD to demonstrate the Lord's works of salvation for humanity, while the presence of Satan in him was to demonstrate the lack of hope for Satan and the lost still attached to him.

Remember, according to the scriptures ... Judas's feet were washed BEFORE Satan entered him ... I think I have shown where this was possibly a demonstration that Judas was to be forgiven by Jesus and that Satan would not retain his possession grip upon him.


Speculative and unlikely.

[Granite]

Judas was not predestined to be the Betrayer. He started out as a disciple and became a betrayer. Whether he was involved or not, God would ensure that the Lamb of God would die for the sins of man. Another could have been instrumental in the events leading to the cross if Judas had remained faithful. OT prophecies do not name him, but are illustrative after the fact.

Does any prophecy indicate someone like Judas would be involved in these events?

[Granite]

This is strictly your own opinion - for not once have you offered scriptural proof for your ideas about this Biblical subject. Your thoughts are solely based on rejection of God and his WORD ... that demonstrates a real lack of credibility on your part.

AT LEAST ... I had evidence from THE BOOK which we were discussing to back up my theories. I do not claim that I am totally correct ... but I do see what I see in what I study. As a Satanist, what do you study? Why do you discuss Biblical scriptures in which you only find intertaining little stories? Isn't this a waste of your good time here on earth?

I study all manner of subjects. My interests are diverse.

Ultimately all we have are our own opinions.

[godrulz]

Does any prophecy indicate someone like Judas would be involved in these events?


There are verses applied to Judas after the fact, by the Holy Spirit. Not all prophecies are predictive. Some have dual fulfillments (historical and future). The general verses would not have been applied to Judas in the NT if he did not fulfill the role. Someone else could have fulfilled the role and had the verses applied to them or no one would have been necessary in the process of the Lamb dying. I am an Open Theist, so this is not traditional Calvinistic understanding that would see predictive prophecy based on determinism (problematic since it makes Judas a puppet and fatalism vs freedom reigns).

[Ps82]

Speculative and unlikely.

Hi Granite and Godrulz,
Godrulz, you use the term - speculation - like it's a dirty word.

Well, often when people read materials where all the details are not clearly spelled out, then the trails of good speculation can come in handy when seeking out the truth where it might be found. If a criminal investigator didn't follow trails of speculation, he might never find the criminal facts he's looking for.

I never said that my ideas about Judas were more set in stone than anyone else’s ...and neither of you two have offered substantial data to the discussion either.

I just don't know why people can't just sometimes write polite replies like - "interesting ... or ... that's a new idea" ... or something more positive.

Sometimes it just seems that people come to Biblical discussion threads to vent their frustrations in life, make themselves sound "superior" over others, or just to chronically ridicule believers in general.

You'd probably both say - "More speculation." ... BUT there sure is a lot of evidence of this behavior to back up my speculative conclusions - right here on TOL.

You know what? I really don't care if you two ever agree with me or even like my ideas on this topic or not ...
I've written some pretty good stuff here and supplied my reasoning ... and it is worth some moments of pondering by those who like to ponder instead of robotically REJECTING most things.

[Bick]

Judas did not go to heaven. He is in the grave---dead. And will be there untill resurrected at the great white throne for judging.

Bick

[godrulz]

Judas did not go to heaven. He is in the grave---dead. And will be there untill resurrected at the great white throne for judging.

Bick


Death means separation, not cessation of existence. Judas will be bodily resurrected for the GWT. He is now very much alive in Hades as a spirit-soul (with maybe a temporary body of some sort). His final destiny will be the lake of fire.

[Spitfire]

Why was Judas even necessary?I just realized I missed the "Why" when I read this the first time! :doh:

To clarify, I agree with the others here who have said that Judas did indeed play an important role, and someone had to facilitate Christ's crucifixion some way, though it didn't necessarily have to be Judas, it just ended up that way.

[Granite]

I just realized I missed the "Why" when I read this the first time! :doh:

To clarify, I agree with the others here who have said that Judas did indeed play an important role, and someone had to facilitate Christ's crucifixion some way, though it didn't necessarily have to be Judas, it just ended up that way.

Why did someone need to facilitate it? In fact, why did he need to be crucified?

[Spitfire]

Why did someone need to facilitate it? In fact, why did he need to be crucified?One can, if it is done willingly, pay the debt of another, though only God made man could repay man's debt to God.

More on all this...
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4046.htm

[Ps82]

One can, if it is done willingly, pay the debt of another, though only God made man could repay man's debt to God.

More on all this...
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4046.htm

Hello Spitfire, and others... Forgive me a moment ... because this post is momentarily off the the topic … but I’m VERY curious for future reference.

Spitfire, I see your reply above, which seems to reveal that you are among those of us at TOL, who consider ourselves 'believers' in God as - a creator and Savior ...

AND YET, I personally read a post from you in another place where you insinuated that you only pretend to be a Catholic ... You had written this comment about yourself upon an atheist thread where fellow atheists were welcoming one another to TOL and encouraging each other to join the fun of “making fun of believers” – so to speak.

I did not form a very good opinion of you when I saw what you wrote about yourself ... because you revealed your “evasion of the truth” about whether you were a 'believing Catholic' from the members here. I hope I have misunderstood this point.

Therefore, I would like to know the truth about you beliefs ... so that I will not think disparagingly of you when we meet on Christian threads.

So what is the truth? Please clear up the truth for me? I don’t want to think that you are deceptive to others at TOL.

[Spitfire]

AND YET, I personally read a post from you in another place where you insinuated that you only pretend to be a Catholic ... You had written this comment about yourself upon an atheist thread where fellow atheists were welcoming one another to TOL and encouraging each other to join the fun of “making fun of believers” – so to speak. Siderealexalt was complaining (albeit not too bitterly) about how he had chosen "More Left than Right" for his political affiliation out of lack of a better alternative. It just reminded me of how I thought it was kind of funny that options here include "Christian" and "Catholic" when I first got here, because of what could be interpreted as the implication that one excludes the possibility of the other (I mentioned this in my intro thread from almost a year ago.)

[Ps82]

Siderealexalt was complaining (albeit not too bitterly) about how he had chosen "More Left than Right" for his political affiliation out of lack of a better alternative. It just reminded me of how I thought it was kind of funny that options here include "Christian" and "Catholic" when I first got here, because of what could be interpreted as the implication that one excludes the possibility of the other (I mentioned this in my intro thread from almost a year ago.)


I gladly apologize ... and I feel a lot better. Nice to meet you.

[Lighthouse]

I just realized I missed the "Why" when I read this the first time! :doh:

To clarify, I agree with the others here who have said that Judas did indeed play an important role, and someone had to facilitate Christ's crucifixion some way, though it didn't necessarily have to be Judas, it just ended up that way.
OV

[truebeliever7]

OV



John 3:13
13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
(NKJ)

peace and love

[Lighthouse]

John 3:13
13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
(NKJ)

peace and love
What? What does that have to do with what I posted? What are you trying to say with this verse?