Christians discussing criminal justice

[julie21]

Mod Note: This thread was split from Zakath is Genuine (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19304&page=7&pp=40). Also note that this thread is in the Exclusively Christian Theology forum. -- :turbo:




You do know PureX, you stand against scripture when you oppose the death penalty for murderers?
Didn't God himself show mercy to one who had committed murder,the man after His own heart, David, therefore showing that the death penalty for murderers can be waived. I believe in terms of judicial law, it was classed as setting a 'precedent'?
There are so many more crimes committed today as well that should, if you apply the 'biblical 'concept of applying the death penalty should also have that same penalty applied [OT mind you, not NT], but do you advocate it for all, or merely pick the ones you wish to apply it to?
As I have said...it is a fine line we walk when we choose to follow 'biblical' principles narrowly in applying to life today.

[drbrumley]

Didn't God himself show mercy to one who had committed murder,the man after His own heart, David, therefore showing that the death penalty for murderers can be waived. I believe in terms of judicial law, it was classed as setting a 'precedent'?
There are so many more crimes committed today as well that should, if you apply the 'biblical 'concept of applying the death penalty should also have that same penalty applied [OT mind you, not NT], but do you advocate it for all, or merely pick the ones you wish to apply it to?
As I have said...it is a fine line we walk when we choose to follow 'biblical' principles narrowly in applying to life today.

Are we God to forgive murder?Is the government supposed to? Maybe you can show me where God says not to put to death murderers. Thanks.

[julie21]

Are we God to forgive murder?Is the government supposed to? Maybe you can show me where God says not to put to death murderers. Thanks.
Maybe in His admonition to us, "Do not commit murder"...try that for a start...

[Turbo]

Didn't God himself show mercy to one who had committed murder,the man after His own heart, David, therefore showing that the death penalty for murderers can be waived.
God has the authority to pardon a murderer, but He never delegated that authority to men.
I believe in terms of judicial law, it was classed as setting a 'precedent'?Then why did God continue to endorse the death penalty after He forgave David?
There are so many more crimes committed today as well that should, if you apply the 'biblical 'concept of applying the death penalty should also have that same penalty applied [OT mind you, not NT], but do you advocate it for all, or merely pick the ones you wish to apply it to?No, we are diligent to rightly divide the word of truth. Not keeping the sabbath isn't even a sin today, let alone a crime, but murder, rape, kidnapping... these are still and always will be heinous crimes deserving of death.

As I have said...it is a fine line we walk when we choose to follow 'biblical' principles narrowly in applying to life today. But lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[drbrumley]

Julie,

God forgave the New Testament adulterer just as He forgave Old Testament adulterers, in neither instance revoking His law. God has all authority to forgive the criminal and disregard temporal punishment. Contrariwise, Men must obey God and cannot ignore punishment.

Cite! (http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/death.shtml)

[julie21]

The Lord's prayer
...and forgive us our trespasses [against other men and His law] as we forgive those who trespass against us...
[lovely words, aren't they?]

[drbrumley]

The Lord's prayer
...and forgive us our trespasses [against other men and His law] as we forgive those who trespass against us...
[lovely words, aren't they?]
That didnt answer post 283

[julie21]

So then, are we to follow the OT penalty system set by God, in committing these to the death penalty system as set out by God?... homosexual behaviour; loving anything more than God; occult practices; pre-marital sex; not observing the Sabbath; etc?

[drbrumley]

Who is to forgive, me or the government?

[Turbo]

The Lord's prayer
...and forgive us our trespasses [against other men and His law] as we forgive those who trespass against us...
[lovely words, aren't they?]
Um... the people whom murderers trespass against are dead.


What do you think is an appropriate punishment for murderers today? Should they be punished at all?

[drbrumley]

You can only forgive someone who injures you. Therefore, if there a murderer is in front of you, he murdered someone else and not you. So for you to say to him, "Your sins are forgiven, go away," you are virtually blaspheming.
I endorse this quote from Bob

[drbrumley]

Ignorant Christians forgiving rapists, child molesters, and murderers? That's like blasphemy.

[julie21]

Where is there a Question in post #283 Doc??? If you had asked, then you may have received! Yu would do well to read before you accuse falsely my friend...don't want you t pull that old switch on me by judging unfairly, do you?

[Turbo]

Julie, God never made pre-marital sex a capital crime.

[drbrumley]

Where is there a Question in post #283 Doc??? If you had asked, then you may have received! Yu would do well to read before you accuse falsely my friend...don't want you t pull that old switch on me by judging unfairly, do you?
Not judging here, made an observation is all.

[Turbo]

Julie, Shall I start a new thread for us to discuss the death penalty, criminal justice, and the Bible?

[drbrumley]

Would post 11 be correct in your opinion? Hows that for a question?

[drbrumley]

Julie, Shall I start a new thread for us to discuss the death penalty, criminal justice, and the Bible?
Great idea.

[julie21]

What do you think is an appropriate punishment for murderers today? Should they be punished at all?
Those who were raped are not necessarily dead Turbo...are they?
What exactly do you take nme for...just because I do not agree with your view on this point in question...yes, that's right...I think fling open the prison doors, and give them all free passes to whatever they want to do...don't ever take me to be a fool Turbo, because it's not in this girl's disposition to be that!
Incarceration for life...hard labour, no priviledges of any kind etc etc etc...but it is God who \will pass the judgement of death or eternal life on them, not me...or anyone I advocate for.

[drbrumley]

Julie,

Jail does not solve crime but it fuels problems!

[Turbo]

Those who were raped are not necessarily dead Turbo...are they?
What exactly do you take nme for...just because I do not agree with your view on this point in question...yes, that's right...I think fling open the prison doors, and give them all free passes to whatever they want to do...don't ever take me to be a fool Turbo, because it's not in this girl's disposition to be that!Please, take it easy. I was asking an honest question. You said that you considered God's pardoning of David to be a precedent for how we should deal with murderers generally.

You also seemed to be saying that the government should forgive criminals, so I asked for clarification. When God forgives, He doesn't also punish.

Incarceration for life...hard labour, no priviledges of any kind etc etc etc...God didn't sentence David to life in prison. In fact God never authorized men to imprison criminals as a form of punishment.

but it is God who \will pass the judgement of death or eternal life on them, not me...or anyone I advocate for.What if God wanted to delegate the authority to punish certain criminals with death to governing authorities. Is God allowed to do that, if He chooses? And if He does, wouldn't it be wrong for the governing authorities not to execute those types of criminals?

[julie21]

You can only forgive someone who injures you. Therefore, if there a murderer is in front of you, he murdered someone else and not you. So for you to say to him, "Your sins are forgiven, go away," you are virtually blaspheming.
I endorse this quote from Bob

And does Bob pay you well for that endorsement???
If I am dead, then logically I cannot say the Lord's prayer, can I?
Logically, it then follows that those who loved me and may seek the death penalty for the one who murdered me,are alive to say the Lord's prayer..aren't they? Follow the logic, son.
If you guys want to start up a thread on whatever, it is up to you..personally, as I have said before, I have my views which are not those of everyonne else on here. If you Bob E followers wish to advocate for the death penalty, well, I cannot stop you..and I do believe that there is not one post where i have said you must change your point of view.
I stae what I think...you do likewise. I have said what my point of view is. A debate is to find a winner, as judged by the viewers. I believe that the only ne who can and will judge appropriately...for He is the only One who truthfully knows what should be, is God. And as I have already been accused by Doc of being a blasphemer, well, I am willing only to be judged as anything biblical/ unbiblical by my Father on His day.
Cop out...you will in all likelihood say so, but do you know how much I care if you do?...my life will go on as before, and so it does not matter.
Some have smelled blood, as the atheists would put it...Christian blood, doesn't seem to matter if they feel that their particular view is not being upheld or followed by all.
Nothing you can say will change my mind...so go for it all you want.
Oh and here.. I'll put this in for you to save you the trpuble of doing it yourself... :chicken: :chicken: :chicken:
Peace

[julie21]

Turbo, I will answer your post...for clarification, I did not say that Governments should forgive criminals. Just leave the death penalty for God to administer as he sees fit on the Final day. Governments should use good judgement of removing from society those who are incapable of allowing others to live as they should be able to, peacefully and safely.

[julie21]

Turbo...Leviticus 21:9
If a priests daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.

[Redfin]

I believe that the only ne who can and will judge appropriately...for He is the only One who truthfully knows what should be, is God.

That is exactly what capital punishment accomplishes, it sends the person to God to be judged.

Thus the origin of the phrase, "May God have mercy on your soul."

A very compassionate sentiment indeed!

[Turbo]

Turbo...Leviticus 21:9
If a priests daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.

Julie, that is a law specifically about the daughter's of priests. There are many laws that God gave to Israel that were symbolic in nature (circumcision, the Sabbath, the feasts, etc.), and many of those laws had to do with the priesthood. This is one of those laws. The priest is a symbol for Christ, so the daughter isn't to be burned for having premarital sex, but for disgracing Christ. But there is no longer a priesthood, since Jesus is our high priest, the one mediator between the Father and man. Therefore there is no way to apply that law to any nation other than Israel under the Old Covenant.

But here is what God said about premarital sex, generally:

If a man entices a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall surely pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the bride-price of virgins. Exodus 20:16-17

[Turbo]

Turbo, I will answer your post...for clarification, I did not say that Governments should forgive criminals. Just leave the death penalty for God to administer as he sees fit on the Final day. Governments should use good judgement of removing from society those who are incapable of allowing others to live as they should be able to, peacefully and safely.But where did God say that governments should do that by locking up criminals that He had previously wanted to be executed?


Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Romans 13:1-4

[drbrumley]

Most Christians say "turn the other cheek" and then put them in jail for 20 years. You don't punish someone whom you forgive!

[Turbo]

Most Christians say "turn the other cheek" and then put them in jail for 20 years. You don't punish someone whom you forgive!
:up:

[Husband&Father]

What are the wages of sin anyway?
20-life with cable TV, a well equipped gym, 3 squares a day, visiting hours?

Jesus suffered the death penalty and uttered not a word against it, Saint Paul, as he was about to get his head loped off, specifically endorsed the death penalty for the guilty.

The Bible condemns many things and many types of people but not the death penalty...why not?

If the death penalty was so wrong, if God wanted to retain an exclusive right to execution than why didn’t he just say so?

He gave us a commandment that said we should not murder and throughout the old and new testaments plenty of murders are exposed and condemned but nowhere do we find an example of an executioner or a government that calls for executions being called murderous.

A gross oversight by the author of the universe?

:think:

[Lighthouse]

Julie-
You're wrong.

[The Edge]

I think murderers should get the death penalty.

I also think people can be forgiven, by men or by God, but may still have to suffer consequences for their actions.

Example: My son got up at 6am today and decided to use his drum to wake up the whole house. He got spanked as a punishment, but was also forgiven.

We can forgive someone, or God can, but still put them to death for committing murder, for it's the punishment called for in the Bible.

[Lighthouse]

Good post, Edge.

[Chileice]

Julie, that is a law specifically about the daughter's of priests. There are many laws that God gave to Israel that were symbolic in nature (circumcision, the Sabbath, the feasts, etc.), and many of those laws had to do with the priesthood. This is one of those laws. The priest is a symbol for Christ, so the daughter isn't to be burned for having premarital sex, but for disgracing Christ. But there is no longer a priesthood, since Jesus is our high priest, the one mediator between the Father and man. Therefore there is no way to apply that law to any nation other than Israel under the Old Covenant.

But here is what God said about premarital sex, generally:

If a man entices a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall surely pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the bride-price of virgins. Exodus 20:16-17


I hear this kind of crud all the time from people who want to pick and choose which OT laws they want to apply to the NT law of grace. But I think it is either ALL still applicable or it is not. I believe Jesus nailed those requirements of the law to the cross (see Col. 2) and that we (including the gov't) should be a redemptive, rather than a vindictive force. We now walk in the light of the mercy and grace of the cross of Christ.

And this SICK quote by redfin:
That is exactly what capital punishment accomplishes, it sends the person to God to be judged.
Thus the origin of the phrase, "May God have mercy on your soul."
A very compassionate sentiment indeed!

is almost unbelievable. MERCY??? Are you kidding me?! What kind of sick warped mind thinks that way. Next time Redfin sins we should just put him to death to send him to God for judgement. That is lunacy. I hope to God that was a sarcastic tongue-in-cheek remark, because if not, it is just plain evil.

Jesus came to this earth to free us from such thinking. The death penalty does NOTHING positive. I have lived in several countries that don't have the death penalty and have felt safer than living in the US where it is practiced. Criminals need to be punished, but the punishment should also be aimed at redemption. Recently we just baptized five prisoners from the local jail. Now it would have been impossible for them to have come to Christ had they been dead. Will all of them live productive godly post-prison lives? We pray so and will do the discipleship to give them every chance. I am not naive. I know some people will fall again. But do we kill all of those who have learned their lessons and who will be productive in society just to get rid a few who never will? That is barbaric and preposterous and not worthy of the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross.

Hang in the julie 21. You have got it right. :BRAVO:

[julie21]

Turbo - a question re your post in answer to mine about Lev21:9...
You posted back that the priesthood was no more, therefore the law re a daughter of a priest having to be burnt alive if guilty of dishonouring her father for having pre-marital sex was void.
Then how is it that the NT of 1Peter tells us this;
1 Peter 2:9 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

This tells me clearly that we the believers are now the royal priesthood...therefore the priesthood is still alive and laws pertaining to it, as given by God in the OT, should still be relevant. A matter of differing interpretation of His word.

Husband and Father:What are the wages of sin anyway?
20-life with cable TV, a well equipped gym, 3 squares a day, visiting hours?
For the wages of sin is death...not at the hands of man, but eternal death at the time of Christ's judgement.
"If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off..." - incarcerate...cut the offender off from the Body that is Christ's, but do not give him the creature comforts that you have put in your post. "Cutting off..." is punishment for sin.

Husband and Father:Jesus suffered the death penalty and uttered not a word against it
Yes He did...as it was the custom of the Romans to use this barbaric act against criminals...which the Jews had accused our Lord of being...and accused him wrongly by their interpretatin of law. Of course, God knew that this form of death was the only way Jesus would die in that day...and Jesus did not speak out against it from the Cross, as He was intent on fulfilling what His Father had decreed was to happen...Through Grace, He died in the only way that was used by the non believing Romans...atheists. This was to show us the greatest of mercies...forgiveness of all sin.

[One Eyed Jack]

I have lived in several countries that don't have the death penalty and have felt safer than living in the US where it is practiced.

Why did you feel safer -- were you committing acts that would have earned you the death penalty here?

Criminals need to be punished, but the punishment should also be aimed at redemption. Recently we just baptized five prisoners from the local jail. Now it would have been impossible for them to have come to Christ had they been dead.

You seem to be assuming that those who support the death penalty think all criminals should get the death penalty. This is not the case. Only certain crimes (such as rape or murder) merit the death penalty.

[julie21]

Further to my post #35....
We are told in the NT that not only are we to be like Christ, but that we are also to submit to the authorities of this world...that is the governments of this world...just as our Lord Jesus Christ submitted Himself to the ruling authority of His day, the barbaric, crucifying , atheistic government of the Romans.
That is, I believe, an adjunct as to why He went to the Cross,and His not complaining to the Father as He was nailed there...He was carrying out what we ourselves have been told to do through His gospel word.
Today, the authorities we are to submit to, various ruling governments of countries, and States within those, cannot agree unanimously to advocate for the death penalty..some do , some don't. Australia once did, now it doesn't. Therefore, since we are to submit to the authority of the government we each live under, and those authorities on the whole cannot be unified in advocating the death penalty, perhaps we as God's people, should choose to sustain life over death as the maxim to be used...and leave such a contentious issue that the ruling authorities cannot agree on, to the Lord for His return and judgement.

With regard to the commandment of "Thou shalt not kill/murder" it is different translation of the last word, which can be a stumbling block in the death penalty debate. I personally lok at it this way...
Whether it is killing of a human by lethal injection etc, meted out by a government in authority, or murder at the hands of a criminal; or euthenasia put into effect by anyone...the end result of them all is a life taken...before the Lord has pronounced His judgement on them. No matter which way the translation goes, the end result is the same every time...a life taken away.
We are all to live in the Light and mercy that He gave us through the Cross...and I choose t believe that there is no mercy in the death penalty. There is mercy, however, in choosing the incarceration of a murderer/ killer/rapist...in keeping them from committing the dark hearted work of satan any further in this world.

And yes, I could very well be wrong...but then again....so could many of you who personally believe in the opposite view to myself. I am quite resolved to be judged accordingly to how Christ will call it in the time to come.

[drbrumley]

Further to my post #35....
We are told in the NT that not only are we to be like Christ, but that we are also to submit to the authorities of this world...that is the governments of this world...just as our Lord Jesus Christ submitted Himself to the ruling authority of His day, the barbaric, crucifying , atheistic government of the Romans.
That is, I believe, an adjunct as to why He went to the Cross,and His not complaining to the Father as He was nailed there...He was carrying out what we ourselves have been told to do through His gospel word.
Today, the authorities we are to submit to, various ruling governments of countries, and States within those, cannot agree unanimously to advocate for the death penalty..some do , some don't. Australia once did, now it doesn't. Therefore, since we are to submit to the authority of the government we each live under, and those authorities on the whole cannot be unified in advocating the death penalty, perhaps we as God's people, should choose to sustain life over death as the maxim to be used...and leave such a contentious issue that the ruling authorities cannot agree on, to the Lord for His return and judgement.

With regard to the commandment of "Thou shalt not kill/murder" it is different translation of the last word, which can be a stumbling block in the death penalty debate. I personally lok at it this way...
Whether it is killing of a human by lethal injection etc, meted out by a government in authority, or murder at the hands of a criminal; or euthenasia put into effect by anyone...the end result of them all is a life taken...before the Lord has pronounced His judgement on them. No matter which way the translation goes, the end result is the same every time...a life taken away.
We are all to live in the Light and mercy that He gave us through the Cross...and I choose t believe that there is no mercy in the death penalty. There is mercy, however, in choosing the incarceration of a murderer/ killer/rapist...in keeping them from committing the dark hearted work of satan any further in this world.

And yes, I could very well be wrong...but then again....so could many of you who personally believe in the opposite view to myself. I am quite resolved to be judged accordingly to how Christ will call it in the time to come.
Julie,

So be it.

But let me leave you with this:

The chapter following the giving of the Ten Commandments has a number of commands from God to execute criminals, including:

"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:12

"He who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:15

"He who kidnaps a man... shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:16

"He who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:17

"[If an unborn baby is killed] you shall give life for life." Ex. 21:23

It is not plausible to suppose that God contradicted Himself just a few sentences after delivering the Ten Commandments to Moses. Clearly God prohibited murder but insisted upon execution of murderers and others. Some Christians, however, are so influenced by the world’s philosophy that they are ashamed of the Lord’s own words in Exodus 21. Others talk as though God was a bad God in the Old Testament but that now in the New, He is a much nicer God, as though He has gone through a rite of passage.

God forbid murder, and commanded the lawful execution of murderers.

Cite (http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/death.shtml)

[The Edge]

Doc,

The notes in my study Bible on the Exodus passages you just quoted indicate the following and summed up what I believe even before purchasing the Bible.

"The death penalty was prescribed for intentional homicide only whereas for unintentional homicide the penalty was banishment to an appointed place, which later God revealed were the cities of refuge. No degree of sanctuary applied to one guilty of premeditated murder. Death by accident at the and of another is something unplanned by man but which God let happen. The law did afford sanctuary but away from the home and vengeful relatives, often for life, because there the one guilty of involuntary manslaughter remained until the death of the High Priest."

This tells me that premeditated murder is worthy of the death penalty, and I believe this should be the case today. For any other crimes, involuntary manslaughter, rape, etc, prison is sufficient.

[Redfin]

"And this SICK quote by redfin:..."

You need to chill, Chileice. Obviously you haven't thought through the subject much if what I wrote shocked you.

The phrase I mentioned ("May God have mercy on your soul."), has been traditionally used in death sentence contexts for centuries to make explicit the fact that there are certain crimes which cannot be adequately punished by man, and that therefore the guilty party is remanded to God's custody, and that by His grace, there may still be hope as far as his or her ultimate destiny is concerned.

"Next time Redfin sins we should just put him to death to send him to God for judgement."

Guilty or innocent, I'd rather be subject to God's justice than man's any day, and the more guilty I am, the more this holds true. :thumb:
.

[Lighthouse]

Chileice-
You make me sick. None of us have ever said that the death penalty should be used for any transgression of the OT law. We aren't even saying that the Mosaic law should still be enforeced. But that the criminla laws Israel had are good, and should still be practiced today. Murderers should be put to death for what they've done. If for no other reason than to keep them from doing it again. The same goes for child molesters, but the current US government allows them to go free after just a few years. And people don't expect them to molest again? Idiots!

[Nineveh]

Starting with Cain, murderers weren't put to death for about 1400 years. God tells us what society became in that time with no punishment: "The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time."

One of the first things God told Noah when he got off the ark was: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

[Lighthouse]

Don't forget that once God called for the death penalty for certain crimes, He never changed His mind. The only ones where it would no longer be appropriate are the ones that are not applicable, such as the one about priest's daughters being burned. The priesthood doesn't exist. So it is completely inapplicable. I'm sure others can provide more evidence, but murderers being put to death is still completely applicable. So is rapists being put to death.

[julie21]

Do you know that WE are now the royal priesthood, Lighthouse? [1Peter] So infact, the priesthood is still in existence.

[Husband&Father]

[Of course, God knew that this form of death was the only way Jesus would die in that day...and Jesus did not speak out against it from the Cross, as He was intent on fulfilling what His Father had decreed was to happen...Through Grace, He died in the only way that was used by the non believing Romans...atheists.]

The fact of the matter is that Christianity is based on the death penalty.
Jesus died for us HERE on earth because our sins must be paid for HERE on earth, not just in the sweet by-and-by.
For Jesus’ sacrifice to be sufficient it had to be what we justly and rightly deserved.

Jesus did not die on the cross because it was the only option available to him; he suffered the death penalty because the death penalty was the correct penalty.

[This was to show us the greatest of mercies...forgiveness of all sin.]

Sin was not forgiven; it was paid for by Jesus.
If I owe you money and you forgive my debt then payment is waived. That is forgiveness, you have shown mercy.
If I owe you money and my father pays you then you forgave nothing, payment was rendered, the debt was satisfied not forgiven. I was redeemed by my father's sacrifice.

God's glorious plan of salvation is NOT a plan that includes forgiveness of the sin debt; it is a plan that calls for a terrible price to be paid for the sin debt. The wages of sin was and remains death.

[Lighthouse]

Do you know that WE are now the royal priesthood, Lighthouse? [1Peter] So infact, the priesthood is still in existence.
Wrong priesthood, Julie. We are not the Levitical priesthood of Israel.:nono:

[julie21]

Husband and Father: The fact of the matter is that Christianity is based on the death penalty.
And all along I thought it was based on the Love of Christ...with no account attached. He gave His life for our sins...so that we could come to the Father independently...with Jesus as our intercessor...
"None shall come to the Father but through me."
I have a feeling that Jesus would not see it that Christianity is 'based' on the death penalty.


H & F : God's glorious plan of salvation is NOT a plan that includes forgiveness of the sin debt; it is a plan that calls for a terrible price to be paid for the sin debt. The wages of sin was and remains death.
That one is interesting too! I am sure that God forgave me my sins that Jesus went to the cross for, and the debt has been paid in full....but hey, if you want to believe what you wrote, go ahead. If you mean that "IT WAS" a sin debt that was paid in full, fine...but not as you have put it.

[Lighthouse]

Christianity hinges on the cross. And the cross was the death penalty.

[julie21]

Christianity hinges on Christ, on God, on the Spirit...the Triune God. Yes, the cross was there, but the Man who was nailed to it, His death and resurrection, are what Christianity is based on.

[Chileice]

Christianity hinges on the cross. And the cross was the death penalty.

So are you saying all Christians should be given the death penalty? Sometimes you just say the most inane things and then want to be taken seriously. Husband and Father isn't much better. Sounds like he wants the death penalty for all sin. Wow! talk about taking a verse out of context or rather half a verse out of context.

Here is Romans 3.21ff in context:
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

God is merciful and overlooked the punishment we all deserve to put it on Christ.

Romans 6.22,23:
22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

OOPS, you missed that part. Wonder why?

[Lighthouse]

Christianity hinges on Christ, on God, on the Spirit...the Triune God. Yes, the cross was there, but the Man who was nailed to it, His death and resurrection, are what Christianity is based on.
Jesus is the door [way], but the cross is the hinge.

[Lighthouse]

So are you saying all Christians should be given the death penalty? Sometimes you just say the most inane things and then want to be taken seriously. Husband and Father isn't much better. Sounds like he wants the death penalty for all sin. Wow! talk about taking a verse out of context or rather half a verse out of context.

Here is Romans 3.21ff in context:
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

God is merciful and overlooked the punishment we all deserve to put it on Christ.

Romans 6.22,23:
22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

OOPS, you missed that part. Wonder why?
You're helpless. You even said that we all deserve death! Of course that was put on Christ, but Christ's death and resurrection doesn't stop us from physically dying, moron! It keeps us from being seperated from God! We still physically die! And murderers, rapists, child molesters and all sortd of other victimizers deserve to die for their crimes! And it is the government's job to do that! I used to think the weay you think, and even before I left the Charismatic church where I got most of my doctrine I began to beleive that these people deserved to die for what they did! And, as I said, Romans 6:23 is not speaking of physical death, but eternal death! That's why eternal life is used as the opposition!:duh: And even if someone becomes saved and has committed these heinous acts, they still deserve death. But that death will be gain. For they will move on to eternal life. For someone who wants to quote the Bible, you sure forget a lot of it.

[sgt99999]

Didn't God himself show mercy to one who had committed murder,the man after His own heart, David, therefore showing that the death penalty for murderers can be waived. I believe in terms of judicial law, it was classed as setting a 'precedent'?


Hi Julie21,

Sorry for jumping in so late on this discussion. I just joined the forum yesterday and I think these discussions are late. I hope no one already said this (i.e., I have not read all the messages in the thread yet).

First, I am curious why you started the discussion with David and not Cain or Lamech (the first murderers). Maybe that is because this topic split from another thread.

Second, I think David is a specific example that is not all that persuasive as an argument against the death penalty in general. I think this because David was the government, and he did have the authority toorder Uriah to the front linesof battle even though it was an abuse of power under the circumstances. APllying this verse to our system, I think it implies that an unjust judge that sentences someone to death in a less than fair trial (which apparently happens all the time) does not get the death penalty.

OK, I will read more before I comment more.

[sgt99999]

Um... the people whom murderers trespass against are dead.

I think that is only partially true. Society suffers as a reuslt of murder too. I can elaborate if you wish.

[sgt99999]

You can only forgive someone who injures you. Therefore, if there a murderer is in front of you, he murdered someone else and not you. So for you to say to him, "Your sins are forgiven, go away," you are virtually blaspheming.
I endorse this quote from Bob

That is an interesting point. Do you have a scripture for either point - (1) only able to forgive someone who injures you and (2) forgiving a capital crime is blasphemy.

The only scriptures I can think of that refers to blasphemy is ascribing a miracle of God to Satan (Matthew 12:31) and claiming to be equal to God (Matthew 26:65). Maybe the second one, if you argue that the forgiving a capital crime against someone else is claiming to be equivalent, or even superior, to God.

[sgt99999]

If I am dead, then logically I cannot say the Lord's prayer, can I?

This is a side point, but what about Jonah in the belly of the fish? Was Jonah dead or not. I submit that Jonah was already dead when he cried out to God and found himself resurrected fish vomit on the shores of Ninevah. The reason I think this is because Jesus said that as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights, so Jesus would be in the heart of the earth, which I take to mean the grave. (See Matthew 12:40.) If Jesus was dead then Jonah must have been dead. In other words, I don't think the parallel is made solelyt for the length of time it would take, but for the physical condition of the parties.

[sgt99999]

Jesus came to this earth to free us from such thinking.

That's not true. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. (See 1 John 3:8.)

The death penalty does NOTHING positive....Now it would have been impossible for them to have come to Christ had they been dead.

I think the policy reason is deterrence. However, I do not see why all of society needs to be punished by paying to keep some creep in jail for life in the hope he comes to Jesus.

I have lived in several countries that don't have the death penalty and have felt safer than living in the US where it is practiced.

So why did you leave? Thi sarguement reminds me of the guy who prays to change the weather patterns instead of just moving to his preferred climate.

Criminals need to be punished, but the punishment should also be aimed at redemption. Recently we just baptized five prisoners from the local jail. [snip]

So what? I personally know a man who served twenty five years for armed robbery, got away unprosecuted with a murder (he said so) and came to Jesus in prison. He could not get a job so he goes into the ministry. I still think he should have been executed to begin with.

Will all of them live productive godly post-prison lives? We pray so and will do the discipleship to give them every chance. I am not naive.[snip]

Cool, how many ex-cons have you opened your house to?