REPORT: TOL Statement of faith

[webmaster]

There is one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

There is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Through Him all things were made. For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the Holy Spirit He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered death and was buried.

On the third day He rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory.

With His saints He will judge the living and the dead. And His kingdom will have no end.

There is one Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped.

He has spoken through the prophets and through the Scriptures.
God established the Body of Christ into which the Holy Spirit baptizes every new believer.

God offers salvation by grace through faith alone in the resurrected Christ.
The Bible records the true history of man including that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six literal days; only eight people survived a global flood; through great wonders God delivered Israel from Egypt; the prophets, Christ, and the apostles performed many miraculous deeds.

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, in their original state, are the inspired Word of God. God legislated morality out of love for His creation.
Men who reject God will suffer eternal damnation.

Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent. One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers, and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come.
Amen.

[Pilgrimagain]

This is the first time I have read through the staement. Thanks for posting it. I don't agree with it 100% particularly as it gets to the end but it is well written and succinct as a statement of faith should be.

[Goose]

Cool

[Yxboom]

There is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
As freak would put it very God of very GOd ;)

I don't agree with it 100% particularly as it gets to the end
I have read it 3 times now and mind you I will be checking periodically to find something I don't agree with since it isn't showing up now.

[Yxboom]

Do you know if this is the statement of faith of Denver Bible Church as well?

[Pilgrimagain]

bump...because yx deserves an answer.

[Yxboom]

;)

[Knight]

Originally posted by Yxboom
Do you know if this is the statement of faith of Denver Bible Church as well? yes... it is.

[Yxboom]

DBC is sweet no doubt :thumb:

[Calvinist]

I don't like having "in the space of six literal days" in it. Not saying I don't agree...

[Knight]

Originally posted by Yxboom
DBC is sweet no doubt :thumb: Indeed. :up:

[Yxboom]

You mean no clarification on God's exhaustive foreknowledge?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
I don't agree with it 100%. If ya did... we would have to change it!!!

(just kidding!! ;))

[Dee Dee Warren]

Cool.....

[Solly]

Is this binding in some way? Do we implicitly accept it by being part of TOL, like user agreements on software?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Solly
Is this binding in some way? Do we implicitly accept it by being part of TOL, like user agreements on software? Uhhhhh........ no.

The statement of faith is for "you" to know what "WE" at TOL believe.

[Turbo]

How do we know for sure what the Webmaster/Knight/DBC means by "in the space of six literal days?":think:

Maybe it's symbolic.

[coffeeman]

If we agree with the statement ....do we get free software?

[Crow]

If we do, Knight owes me some software....whoops--didn't catch the six literal days part when I originally wrote this. I have to admit some doubt there.

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Knight
The statement of faith is for "you" to know what "WE" at TOL believe.
Being more specific, is the "WE" you are referring to the Administrators as listed here (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showgroups.php?s=)?

[Lucky]

*ahem* :D

[Knight]

Originally posted by Lucky8
Being more specific, is the "WE" you are referring to the Administrators as listed here (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showgroups.php?s=)? Pretty much.

[Knight]

bump

[godrulz]

Six literal days is not in most statements of faith, but it is a good idea. If we doubt the literal interpretation of Genesis, we might have to doubt John also. Six long ages is problematic in light of science, grammar, and Genesis chronology.

The statement sounds like a paraphrase or compilation of historic creeds.

[Lovejoy]

Alright, we get to post on a piece of TOL history. Cool.

[SOTK]

I am complete agreement with the TOL Statement of Faith! :thumb:

[Lighthouse]

It seems to me that Jews believe in six literal days, since they observe the seventh day sabbath.:think:

[Frank Ernest]

Statement of Faith at ToL. Cool!

Gonna keep a copy.

[MrsDearDelmar]

I agree with the six literal days as well!!!

[MrsDearDelmar]

Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent.

It's a shame that not too many people, Christians or others, don't believe this or follow it like we are commanded to.

[Frank Ernest]

I agree with the six literal days as well!!!

2Peter 3:8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

[Aimiel]

I believe every word, and also believe that (had He wanted to) He could have made everything in six tenths of a nanosecond, without breaking a sweat. I think He took His time because it was more believeable for us. I will also add, for those who don't believe this statement of faith: Repent!!! The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

[godrulz]

2Peter 3:8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Simile: a comparison using like or as. A thousand years in God's everlasting duration is the same amount of time as 1000 years earth time. This verse is not a literal proof text to say that creation occurred over 6000 years. In light of eternity, a thousand years is a blink for God. For a man, it is many lifetimes. God's perception is different since He has existed forever. It seems forever for us that He has not returned. For Him, it is a moment.

Ages of creation is problematic from a literal view of Genesis 1 (you need light, food, water, etc. quickly or things would die off; the Genesis chronology also contradicts evolutionary theory).

[beanieboy]

I don't like having "in the space of six literal days" in it. Not saying I don't agree...

How was it six literal days if the sun wasn't created until the 3rd "day"?
Did God have a watch?

[godrulz]

How was it six literal days if the sun wasn't created until the 3rd "day"?
Did God have a watch?

God experienced succession, duration, sequence from all eternity. The MEASURE of earthly time for US relates to the sun and moon. Technically, hours pass even before creation. The first, second, and third 24 hour period (same Hebrew word used in Exodus for days relating to Sabbath keeping) had creation activity. Just because the sun was created later, does not mean the first days were not 24 hours. The measure of time can be done in various ways. It does not have to be by the sun. Chronology and sequence happened, with or without the sun. After the sun and man were created, then at some point we formalized our measure of preexisting time. God is not timeless, but exeriences and endless duration of time.

[MrsDearDelmar]

Simile: a comparison using like or as. A thousand years in God's everlasting duration is the same amount of time as 1000 years earth time. This verse is not a literal proof text to say that creation occurred over 6000 years. In light of eternity, a thousand years is a blink for God. For a man, it is many lifetimes. God's perception is different since He has existed forever. It seems forever for us that He has not returned. For Him, it is a moment.

Ages of creation is problematic from a literal view of Genesis 1 (you need light, food, water, etc. quickly or things would die off; the Genesis chronology also contradicts evolutionary theory).

Thank you very much!!!! You beat me to it! It's like how long a year seems to a five year old, and how short it seems to a 40 or 60 year old person! :)

[Zakath]

I find two things interesting about the TOL Statment of Faith...

1. That they felt the need to use the Nicene Creed and omit the FILIOQUE.

2. That they felt the need to add their own "pet doctrines" to an historic creed.

Perhaps they felt the Church Fathers weren't closely enough aligned with the Almighty...

[godrulz]

I find two things interesting about the TOL Statment of Faith...

1. That they felt the need to use the Nicene Creed and omit the FILIOQUE.

2. That they felt the need to add their own "pet doctrines" to an historic creed.

Perhaps they felt the Church Fathers weren't closely enough aligned with the Almighty...


Filoque and Barth: http://www.leithart.com/archives/001158.php

The TOL statement does mention the procession of the Spirit.

Which pet doctrines are you referring to? I did not see Open Theism or Enyart ideas in the list.

[Knight]

Perhaps they felt the Church Fathers weren't closely enough aligned with the Almighty...In some ways yes and in other ways no.

Not even many of the characters in the Bible itself were aligned with God's will, what makes you think the early church fathers would be any different?

[Knight]

Filoque and Barth: http://www.leithart.com/archives/001158.php

The TOL statement does mention the procession of the Spirit.

Which pet doctrines are you referring to? I did not see Open Theism or Enyart ideas in the list.We share the same statement of faith with Denver Bible Church.

[godrulz]

We share the same statement of faith with Denver Bible Church.


Zakath seems to think there is some unusual ideas beyond the creeds. I did not find the statement unorthodox.

[Frank Ernest]

Simile: a comparison using like or as. A thousand years in God's everlasting duration is the same amount of time as 1000 years earth time. This verse is not a literal proof text to say that creation occurred over 6000 years. In light of eternity, a thousand years is a blink for God. For a man, it is many lifetimes. God's perception is different since He has existed forever. It seems forever for us that He has not returned. For Him, it is a moment.

Ages of creation is problematic from a literal view of Genesis 1 (you need light, food, water, etc. quickly or things would die off; the Genesis chronology also contradicts evolutionary theory).
Peter says be not ignorant of a simile? :darwinsm:

Good one! :down:

[Frank Ernest]

In some ways yes and in other ways no.

Not even many of the characters in the Bible itself were aligned with God's will, what makes you think the early church fathers would be any different?
BINGO!

[Zakath]

We share the same statement of faith with Denver Bible Church.
No surprises there... :nono:

[Zakath]

... I did not find the statement unorthodox.No surprises there either... ;)

[Zakath]

The TOL statement does mention the procession of the Spirit.Yes, but not in the sense and wording commonly understood in Western Christianity.

Which pet doctrines are you referring to?Implied Biblical literalism, for one, placing them in the ranks of fundamentalism.

Particularly interesting is that they are so focused on confrontation, rebuking, and judgement that they feel the need to make such conduct an article of faith. :box:

I did not see Open Theism or Enyart ideas in the list.Based on debates I've seen at denominational general conferences, such beliefs seem alienate many Christians. Open Theism has actually been called a heresy in some circles. Since DBC is a small group trying to make a name for itself, it's better for them that they don't mention such beliefs publicly.

[godrulz]

Peter says be not ignorant of a simile? :darwinsm:

Good one! :down:

No. He is reminding the readers that in light of eternity, a delay in the Second Coming is not a denial of its eventual fulfillment. A simile, allegory, parable, etc. can convey truth as much as a didactic passage. God is patient, and so must we be. Are you prepared to excise all figures of speech from the Bible to follow a wooden literalism into heresy? Are you prepared to put 1000 years into every mention of the word 'day' or 'day' into the verses about the millennium? Just as Proverbs 8 is a personification of wisdom (not Christological, didactic passage), so the words 'like and as' can trigger a simile for comparison. If you want to be literal, the Second Coming should take place exactly on a 1000 year reference. The Daniel Tribulation is 7000 years long instead of 7 years, etc. No good exegete makes a doctrine on time and eternity from this Petrine 'proof text'. What is your problem? Is sozo messing with you to be contrary over little things?

[Knight]

No surprises there... :nono:And therefore what?

Is it wrong for my website to share the statement of faith of the church I attend?

[Zakath]

And therefore what?

Is it wrong for my website to share the statement of faith of the church I attend?
I think linking your website's "theological views" so closely to that of any particular church suggests a level of control that you may or may not intend.

But "it's your party, you can cry if you want to..." ;)

[Zakath]

Hey, I just received three negative reps in 10 minutes. All from this thread. I must have hit a nerve. :chuckle:

[Granite]

Hey, I just received three negative reps in 10 minutes. All from this thread. I must have hit a nerve. :chuckle:

:chuckle:

Doesn't take long, does it.

Nothing too surprising in the statement of faith, pretty much biz as usual.

P.S. Just repped ya. We do what we can!

[Zakath]

Make that 4 negatives and one positive. :thumb:

Nice to know I'm making a difference. :D

[Poly]

I think linking your website's "theological views" so closely to that of any particular church suggests a level of control that you may or may not intend.

But "it's your party, you can cry if you want to..." ;)

Let me get this straight. He chooses to go to a church where he theologically agrees and then he's being controlled when he decides to tie in those views on his website? So what's he supposed to do, promote theological view that he doesn't agree with in order to show that he's not being controlled? :kookoo:

You're really graspin' there, Zakath.

[Knight]

Hey, I just received three negative reps in 10 minutes. All from this thread. I must have hit a nerve. :chuckle:Maybe because you are an idiot?

Just a thought.

[Knight]

I think linking your website's "theological views" so closely to that of any particular church suggests a level of control that you may or may not intend.Those ARE my theological views you knob!

Are you intentionally trying to be a brainless fool?

[Zakath]

Let me get this straight. He chooses to go to a church where he theologically agrees and then he's being controlled when he decides to tie in those views on his website? So what's he supposed to do, promote theological view that he doesn't agree with in order to show that he's not being controlled?
Perhaps just not make such a big thing out of the correspondence between the two sets of views...

[Zakath]

Those ARE my theological views you knob!Knob?

:chuckle:

Are you intentionally trying to be a brainless fool?Merely trying to keep you all company... :)

[Zakath]

Maybe because you are an idiot?

Just a thought.
Maybe because I ticked some people off by poking at their guru, St. Bob the Broadcaster.

That's alright, I can handle the truth. The issue is, can you folks do so? :think:

[Knight]

Perhaps just not make such a big thing out of the correspondence between the two sets of views..."Big thing"?????

I think that's the first time I have ever stated that the two statements are the same. And even then I don't think I made a "Big thing" out of it. But you really don't care about that do you?

You are more interested in being a flaming retard.

[Knight]

Maybe because I ticked some people off by poking at their guru, St. Bob the Broadcaster. Or possibly because you are saying some incredibly stupid things on this thread.

[Zakath]

"Big thing"?????

I think that's the first time I have ever stated that the two statements are the same. And even then I don't think I made a "Big thing" out of it. But you really don't care about that do you?Sure I do. I'm interested in what you think... and more importantly in getting you to think.

You are more interested in being a flaming retard.Sticks and stones, laddie. Sticks and stones... :chuckle:

[Poly]

... and more importantly in getting you to think.



:darwinsm:

[Zakath]

Now up to six negative reps!

Calling all Enyartians!

St. Bob's reputation is in danger from evil old Zakath.

Rally to the cause and eliminate Zak's rep points!

Time to mock and roll!

[Knight]

:zakath: = :loser:

[Zakath]

:darwinsm:Yes, Poly. I know that's an unbelievable stretch for some of you. But if you tried it, after the initial pain of activating unused neural paths, you might find it helpful. :thumb:

[Zakath]

:zakath: = :loser:
Rendered you speechless, eh Tinman?

[Zakath]

Up to eight negative reps...

[Freak]

"
You are more interested in being a flaming retard. :zakath: + :skeptic: = :flamer: (Zakatheist)

[Knight]

Up to eight negative reps...All deserved.

* general observations... *
Zakath today was not a good day for you. You said some really stupid things.
* /general observations... *

[godrulz]

I think linking your website's "theological views" so closely to that of any particular church suggests a level of control that you may or may not intend.

But "it's your party, you can cry if you want to..." ;)

It is a fairly generic statement based on other similar statements. Why reinvent the wheel?

[godrulz]

Up to eight negative reps...

I do not think people should use the rep system punitively. We should give some thought and save commendations and concerns for content.

[Charity]

GREETINGS:
Can we look into the old testerment first concerning those who looked to the coming of the christ, that there souls may be saved, those who feared the lord and looked apon his name. Still going to dust and not yet receiving there promise. Luke :2 68 Blessed be the lord god of Isreal; for he has visited and redemed his people and has raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of David.
Books were opened and judgement made concerning those who beleived on his name This is an event that happened in period as Matthew :27.51 the graves open and many rise. this can only have taken place due to a Judgment.
Danial: 12 And many of them who slept in the dust of the earth awake some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting torment.
Very clear that this is not yet a period of perfection , people still needing to be made rightous One would asume perfection on a rising soul, maybe not so , as some rising heading to destruction .
1 Corinthians : paul starts with the comon beleif the cross all beleive that christ died and rose again three days later, he has there ears now then he includes this resurrection of life in conjuntion with the crucifixtion and rising again,
We all agree that christ should be the first man to rise from the dead, one problem how can some one that has not risen yet rise others from the dead,
lazerth and others Moses he has to be the first , even if you thougt they were sleeping still he is the firstfruits of them that slept; still first;;
( christ said I am the resurection of life )
I call this a veiled coming that sould be found only by his called and chosen .
1 theory= to extend to a future experiance, or
2 = to go back and rise him for those before, having not to pervert Gods grace to them and alow them perish ,
1 corinthians 15: 17&18 so if christ be not risen then neither are the dead .so before any dead apear he would have to be dead and back for god is not a lier . Concerning the elected one, whos soul will be made an offering to justfy many his soul will see his seed,
Reverlation 5 The Lamb opening the seals in the presance of god and hevenly hosts the REDEMED !!!!! praising him for he is worthy to open the seals,
5th seal they are still waiting for the rest of the 144000 to be completed having white robs given to them.
6th seal numbers complete
Reverlation:7:17The lamb feeds them now and leads them unto the living fountains of water:
Reverlation 22.17 And the spirit and the bride say, come and let him that heareth say And him that is athirst come. and whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. clear that the lamb before opening seals had completed in redeming souls, later in 6th seal he leads to the life giving water. .
MY Thoughts
The cleaner came : made a contract that he would clean our room so we shut the door and went and slept in another room waiting for his coming,
We grew old and told our children the cleaner is coming, they grew old and many generations passed in wait off the cleaner.
One day a child found the contract and read ,There are some here now that will not pass away before they see my coming, so the child ran out side past the garded door to the window and peered through, at that moment he had come for him .
The kingdom of god cometh not by observation:
Neither shall they say Lo here Lo there
for behold the kingdom of god is withinyou.
and he said to the disciples,
The days will come, when ye shall desire
to see one of the days of the son of man,
and ye shall not see it.
Having seen that the promise to the old testerment people was his coming,.as simple as it sounds some one cant leave unless they have come first
John 16 28 I come forth from the father , and am come into the world AGAIN, I leave the world and go to the father .
his deciples said unto him, Lo speakest no proverb.
Now are we sure that thou knowest all things,
and needest not that man should ask thee by this
We believe that thou camest forth from god.
Jesus answered them, Do ye NOW believe?
Other interesting verses He whom god rose from the dead man have taken and hung on a tree,
Though we preach God rose christ from the dead we are found to be false witness and our preaching is vain,
Dont tell anyone of the vison untill the son of man be risen from the dead AGAIN ,

Remember reverlations verses as they read the first Lamb praised for redeming those , second Lamb feeds and leads to the fountains of water, and those who will, will follow, god dosnt put things back to frount we do
Some coming verses may refure to a coming of relization. So he would not need to come as a theif , John 16 31
I have come to get that witch was lost, that one goes back,
We cant turn up at the wedding feast if we have the dates wrong and that is exactley what the Antichrists are all about,
Even confuse you as to clothing yourself ready.They only prevent his coming for you


2 Thess 2 and you perish not from lack of trying but lack of understanding..



Charity

[Adambassador]

eh? :confused:

[Charity]

eh? :confused:


I ask. . . Do we need to put Christ on the cross to make ourselves a resurection ? It would seem we could be joining those who say He is not the resurrection of life crucify Him.





Charity

[Charity]

I ask. . . Do we need to put Christ on the cross to make ourselves a resurection ? It would seem we could be joining those who say He is not the resurrection of life crucify Him.





Charity
Mathew 27 .19
When he was set down on the judgement seat, his wife sent unto him, saying,
Have nothing to do with that just man;for i have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
But the cheif preiests and elders, PERSUADED the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of twain, will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.
Pilate said unto them,What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
And the governor said, Why what evil hath he done?But they cried out more saying, Let him be crucified.
When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took Water, washed his hands before the multitude, saying I am inocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it,
Then answered the people , and said His blood be on us, and on our CHILDREN
Paul changed sides , so can we, understanding is to depart from evil.


Charity.

[Frank Ernest]

I do not think people should use the rep system punitively. We should give some thought and save commendations and concerns for content.
:darwinsm: I see the UN Committee for Reputation Assignment Propriety (aka UNCRAP) has convened.

[Aimiel]

Maybe we should have all members who wish to 'profess' Christianity take the TOL Statement of Faith seriously enough to agree with it. Anyone who doesn't shouldn't be allowed to pretend that they are Christian, at least on TOL.

[koban]

How on earth would you enforce that?

[Aimiel]

Simple, ask the Christians on TOL to report anyone whose profile proclaims, "Christian," who isn't posting threads which are in agreement with the doctrine stated in the Statement of Faith. If they don't retract their post, they'll have to be changed to something other than Christian, until they accpet the tenets of the Christian faith.

[SOTK]

:think:

[Crow]

Maybe we should have all members who wish to 'profess' Christianity take the TOL Statement of Faith seriously enough to agree with it. Anyone who doesn't shouldn't be allowed to pretend that they are Christian, at least on TOL.

So, do you think we should kick Old Earth Creationists off the Christian list?

[kmoney]

Simple, ask the Christians on TOL to report anyone whose profile proclaims, "Christian," who isn't posting threads which are in agreement with the doctrine stated in the Statement of Faith. If they don't retract their post, they'll have to be changed to something other than Christian, until they accpet the tenets of the Christian faith.
Could they call themselves "Christian(other)"?
or do you want them to completely use another category?

[Aimiel]

So, do you think we should kick Old Earth Creationists off the Christian list?If they don't line up, they're not enduring sound doctrine, they ought not to be allowed to claim the name of Jesus.

[Aimiel]

Could they call themselves "Christian(other)"?
or do you want them to completely use another category?There's too many (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Branch Davidians, etc.) who would abuse the Christian (other) category. I don't even think it belongs. Either you're Christian, or you've accepted un-sound doctrine as Christianity. That's what I think.

[SOTK]

Do the moderators have to completely subscribe to the TOL statement of faith to become moderators?

[kmoney]

There's too many (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Branch Davidians, etc.) who would abuse the Christian (other) category. I don't even think it belongs. Either you're Christian, or you've accepted un-sound doctrine as Christianity. That's what I think.
While I think your idea is a potentially good one I'm not sure how it would work. If they don't just use the "other" part of Christian we'd have to have a bunch more names and even then some people just wouldn't fit any so we'd have to keep the "other" category. I guess from looking at the Statement of Faith the biggest problem would maybe be, like Crow brought up, old earth vs. new earth. Other than that most people probably don't deny things in it.

[Crow]

If they don't line up, they're not enduring sound doctrine, they ought not to be allowed to claim the name of Jesus.
I'm OEC, Aimiel. So y'all make your case that I am not saved nor a Christian.

[kmoney]

I'm OEC, Aimiel. So y'all make your case that I am not saved nor a Christian.
How old is "old"?

[Greywolf]

If they don't line up, they're not enduring sound doctrine, they ought not to be allowed to claim the name of Jesus.

Maybe there could be a TOL Certified Christian™ option. :think:

[SOTK]

I'm OEC, Aimiel. So y'all make your case that I am not saved nor a Christian.

I was once an OEC. Whether you are OEC or YEC is of no consequence. It's non-salvific. I don't think Aimiel was suggesting that it is.

You are definitely saved in my book (not that what I have to say even matters). :)

[Crow]

How old is "old"?

As in way older than 6000 years.

And you know something? I'm saved by the grace which came from Him with my belief in Christ as my Savior, not in how I interpret the length of the days referred to in the Genesis account, nor in Aimiel's interpretation of what constitutes a Christian.

[SOTK]

As in way older than 6000 years.

And you know something? I'm saved by the grace which came with my belief in Christ as my Savior, not in how I interpret the length of the days referred to in the Genesis account, nor in Aimiel's interpretation of what constitutes a Christian.

:up:

Yep, we are all saved by grace!

[kmoney]

As in way older than 6000 years.

And you know something? I'm saved by the grace which came from Him with my belief in Christ as my Savior, not in how I interpret the length of the days referred to in the Genesis account, nor in Aimiel's interpretation of what constitutes a Christian.
I was not about to question your salvation. I was just asking a question....

[Crow]

I was not about to question your salvation. I was just asking a question....

I understand. I just get kind hot when people start this kind of mess.

Christians are Christians by receiving grace by their faith in Christ as their Savior. And we all don't believe or interpret everything the same way. Agreeing with one another in every point of doctrine is not what makes us Christian or otherwise.

The webmaster stated the beliefs of the owners of this site. And I believe pretty much as they do, but I am OEC. It is possible for most Christians to disagree on some of the non-salvic issues and recognize each other as "real" Christians. Most.

[koban]

Simple, ask the Christians on TOL to report anyone whose profile proclaims, "Christian," who isn't posting threads which are in agreement with the doctrine stated in the Statement of Faith. If they don't retract their post, they'll have to be changed to something other than Christian, until they accpet the tenets of the Christian faith.



Sounds like we could just call them TOLians and be done with it.

or Aimielians :think:

[GuySmiley]

I'm OEC, Aimiel. So y'all make your case that I am not saved nor a Christian.
How old do you have to be to be an old earth creationist? I'm 35, but I still feel like a young creationist.

[Crow]

:chuckle: I dunno. I'm 50, so I surely qualify.

[Lovejoy]

How old do you have to be to be an old earth creationist? I'm 35, but I still feel like a young creationist.
As far as I am concerned, the universe is just over 32 years old, and anyone who says it is older than that (like those of you who, insanely, maintain that it is at least 35) are to be regarded with suspicion.

[Crow]

Funny, Lovejoy.

OK, I appreciate the humor, folks, but let's not post any more of it in here. Knight would not want us (myself included) to spam this thread.

:crow:

[Aimiel]

I'm OEC, Aimiel. So y'all make your case that I am not saved nor a Christian.I don't see that as an issue, neither do I see what you believe to be un-sound doctrine. I'm pretty much in the 'who cares' ballpark on that one. I believe what God said, although He never told us what (exactly) the terms 'without form and void' mean. It could mean that the earth was created, but not pressed into His 'cookie-cutter' yet, and we don't know how long before He began creation that it was 'void.'

[Aimiel]

Maybe there could be a TOL Certified Christian™ option. :think:Or, perhaps, Bona fide Believer, for someone who subscribes to the TOL Statement of Faith.

[Aimiel]

I'm saved by the grace which came from Him with my belief in Christ as my Savior, not in how I interpret the length of the days referred to in the Genesis account, nor in Aimiel's interpretation of what constitutes a Christian.I'm not trying to say anyone isn't saved, merely want to allow those who don't have any glaring 'red flags' to be able to be designated as such.

[Crow]

I'm not trying to say anyone isn't saved, merely want to allow those who don't have any glaring 'red flags' to be able to be designated as such.

So which of these categories would you OECs post under?

Mormon - Jehovah's Witness - Jewish - Muslim - Hindu - Buddhist - Agnostic - Atheist - Wiccan - Satanist - Pagan

[SOTK]

Crow,

He already said that he doesn't see OECs as non-christians. I think you have misunderstood him from the beginning.

[Charity]

Maybe we should have all members who wish to 'profess' Christianity take the TOL Statement of Faith seriously enough to agree with it. Anyone who doesn't shouldn't be allowed to pretend that they are Christian, at least on TOL.

[SOTK]

I don't see that as an issue, neither do I see what you believe to be un-sound doctrine. I'm pretty much in the 'who cares' ballpark on that one. I believe what God said, although He never told us what (exactly) the terms 'without form and void' mean. It could mean that the earth was created, but not pressed into His 'cookie-cutter' yet, and we don't know how long before He began creation that it was 'void.'

[Crow]

SOTK, the TOL statement of faith states that the God created everything in six literal days. Aimiel advocated using this standard for who can post as Christian or not. That would exclude many OEC.

I'm a OEC. I disagree with that, although I can understand and respect those who believe it.

But Aimiel should really understand what he is saying when he advocates restricting who can be called "Christian" to anything other than those who have accepted Christ as Savior and received His Grace.

Incidentally, the TOL statement of faith does not profess to be a litmus test for what is and is not Christian. It is stating the beliefs of the owners of this site.

[Aimiel]

You pass my litmus test, by professing faith in Christ. Those who don't demonstrate any, and don't endure sound doctrine ought not to be allowed to. Mormons don't fit into the Christian category, any more than Satanists or those pagans who claim to be Christian but aren't; such as David2, who claims that Christ 'faked' His Death.

[SOTK]

SOTK, the TOL statement of faith states that the God created everything in six literal days. Aimiel advocated using this standard for who can post as Christian or not. That would exclude many OEC.

But Aimiel should really understand what he is saying when he advocates restricting who can be called "Christian" to anything other than those who have accepted Christ as Savior and received His Grace.

Yes, I understand that one has to be careful when going down that road, however, I understand Aimiel's frustration with "wolves in sheep's clothing" around here. I also understood what he meant and what he was driving at.

I'm not stating I agree with Aimiel, but I do share his frustration.

You lost me when you posted this:

I'm a OEC. I disagree with that, although I can understand and respect those who believe it.

You are OEC but disagree with it?

Incidentally, the TOL statement of faith does not profess to be a litmus test for what is and is not Christian. It is stating the beliefs of the owners of this site.

I know that I do not think it professes to be a litmus test nor do I believe that Aimiel thinks it does.

[julie21]

Isn't all that matters is when asked on that glorious day of the Lord, "What did you believe regarding my Son, Jesus?" that we answer "Believed on Him, totally and so acted accordingly."?
It may matter to some here what one believes re OEC v YEC and the matter of 'literal' days, but how does your view on that make you any less a Christian? Personally, I can't imagine Christ popping that particular question to us on His return.We know He created it all...and that is all that some Christians need to know. The 'basic fact' of His creating it as opposed to some imagined creation theory. We have the fundamental Truth of who He is in all His glory and that is the basic tenet we need to base being Christian on.
Thank goodness it is not a litmus test for being a true follower of Christ, but as Crow said, merely the stated belief [re the Earth creation length] of the owners of TOL.
"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror ; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part ; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

[Aimiel]

I'm fine with that, on THAT DAY. 'Till then, we ought to not allow someone who isn't Christian to proclaim that they are, in a bald-faced lie. That's all I'm saying. We appear to condone their actions, when we do.

[CRASH]

I'm fine with that, on THAT DAY. 'Till then, we ought to not allow someone who isn't Christian to proclaim that they are, in a bald-faced lie. That's all I'm saying. We appear to condone their actions, when we do.

Just Hammer em when ya see em Aimiel and I'll do the same!

[Crow]

Yes, I understand that one has to be careful when going down that road, however, I understand Aimiel's frustration with "wolves in sheep's clothing" around here. I also understood what he meant and what he was driving at.

I'm not stating I agree with Aimiel, but I do share his frustration.

You lost me when you posted this:



You are OEC but disagree with it?



I know that I do not think it professes to be a litmus test nor do I believe that Aimiel thinks it does.

I disagree with the YEC position. I believe that God chose to create the universe and life in a manner which spans much longer than the 6000 to 10,000 years over which most YEC Christians believe that these have existed.

I respect their position, but I disagree with it.

[julie21]

Aimiel : I'm fine with that, on THAT DAY. 'Till then, we ought to not allow someone who isn't Christian to proclaim that they are, in a bald-faced lie. That's all I'm saying. We appear to condone their actions, when we do.
Amiel, I do not believe for one minute that this,"We appear to condone their actions, when we do" is so...if you read a post that does not have any of the Gospel truth within, or is a distortment of the Gospel in any shape or form, it will become evident from those who are truly in Christ posting replies howling it down and so will plainly show up the "wolves in sheep's clothing'" for what they truly are.
Do not forget that there will be a time when one comes who will proclaim to be a Christian and many will follow him...but if he posted on here, I am sure that he would be shown by those who are true followers of the Lord to be just what he is...a deceiver, no matter what he proclaims under his avatar.
In that same vein, I believe that the posting is the thing which shows what a person on TOL truly is, not what appears under their avatar.

[Vaquero45]

I disagree with the YEC position. I believe that God chose to create the universe and life in a manner which spans much longer than the 6000 to 10,000 years over which most YEC Christians believe that these have existed.

I respect their position, but I disagree with it.

Crow, you probably have heard all this before, but... Have you read "In The Beginning" by Walt Brown?, (you really should if you haven't) and... Taking the Bible literally (as in "six days") just gives you a great sense of confidence.

Your friend no matter how you respond, :D Jeff

(did I mention I am a Young Earth'er?) :)

[Delmar]

I'm fine with that, on THAT DAY. 'Till then, we ought to not allow someone who isn't Christian to proclaim that they are, in a bald-faced lie. That's all I'm saying. We appear to condone their actions, when we do. I would guess that on THAT DAY most of us will be surprised about a few things. Those of us that ended up inside Heaven will likely be glad to learn the truth about the extent of our error. Those in Hell.. not so much!

[Aimiel]

It just bothers me that someone can proclaim Christ and then also proclaim that Jesus faked His own death, because there might be people who read such garbage and think that it might be valid.

[Zakath]

It just bothers me that someone can proclaim Christ and then also proclaim that Jesus faked His own death, because there might be people who read such garbage and think that it might be valid.
"Proclaiming Christ" doesn't exempt humans from exercising their free will to propose and discuss ideas you consider outrageous, does it?

[Aimiel]

When they proclaim that they believe in Jesus out of one side of their mouth and then call Him a liar out of the other, it merely proves who they believe and who they don't.

[julie21]

It just bothers me that someone can proclaim Christ and then also proclaim that Jesus faked His own death, because there might be people who read such garbage and think that it might be valid.
But you and I lots of others are here to show them the falsehood of that, aren't we?
As believers,we are called upon to make the truth known to others and where someone is proclaiming such an untruth as that mentioned, then that is what you do.
I really believe that someone, even a non-Christian, reading a post such as the one you refer to, would have to have some idea of the true nature of the person who posted it, and see it for the garbage that it is.

[koban]

It just bothers me that someone can proclaim Christ and then also proclaim that Jesus faked His own death, because there might be people who read such garbage and think that it might be valid.


Aimiel - if you're referring to this post:http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=906366&postcount=73
consider that he may have been trying to make a point without claiming that Jesus faked his death.

Or he may have been talking about tuna. :think:

Hard to tell with this one. :chuckle:

[Aimiel]

Let's hope so. It really rubs me the wrong way though. Then you post to them, and they ignore the truth, that Jesus said that He was dead, and is alive forevermore. It's just that they make Him out to be a liar.

[koban]

If they ignore the truth, on their own heads.

If they try to make him out to be a liar, who's going to listen to them? Muslims?

[Aimiel]

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

[Zakath]

When they proclaim that they believe in Jesus out of one side of their mouth and then call Him a liar out of the other, it merely proves who they believe and who they don't.
It sounds more like you're reading many of your own ideas into someone else's proclamation of faith and are then affronted or disappointed when it turns out that they don't believe as you thought they did.

This demonstrates the importance of clarifying what someone else actually means when they use jargon.

[Aimiel]

You're right. Someone claiming to be a psychologist, even someone with a degree, isn't necessarily a 'real' psychologist; they might just be using the jargon. I'll keep that in mind.

[Zakath]

You're right.You're welcome. ;)

Someone claiming to be a psychologist, even someone with a degree, isn't necessarily a 'real' psychologist; they might just be using the jargon. I'll keep that in mind.Not thinking of anyone in particular are we? :rolleyes:

But your metaphor isn't quite apt since being a psychologist the result of years of study and passing written and oral exams by a board of practicing psychologists.

Of course for religious beliefs, there is no such confirmation. Even your deity doesn't seem to be able to tell you who is and who isn't one of his followers... hence your difficulty. :rolleyes:

[Aimiel]

Christians who endure years of study, passing written, oral and spiritual exams, the latter being given by The Lord, Himself, are confirmed in many ways and by many different 'bodies' and institutions; and are often dismissed as 'whacko' by practicing psychologists as having a 'heaven's reward' fallacy fixation. The idea being to undermine and to minimize Truth, experienced by those Christians. Our diety is capable of doing a lot more than even those who know Him personally have given Him credit for. He's the one Who allows any and every opposition to Him to exist, without any complaints; and still hasn't been proven wrong once. Your diety isn't capable of telling you anything, because it doesn't exist. Hence your frustration.

[godrulz]

I thought Zak was long gone and retired from TOL :jazz:

[Zakath]

I thought Zak was long gone and retired from TOL :jazz:
What ever gave you that idea? :confused:

Not that some folks wouldn't like for that to be true... ;)

[Knight]

I thought Zak was long gone and retired from TOL :jazz:Zakath has quit TOL about 9 times now.

He loves us so much he just cant stay away. :D

[godrulz]

Zakath has quit TOL about 9 times now.

He loves us so much he just cant stay away. :D


Probably part of his addictive or obsessive-compulsive personality.

Zak: I got the idea from you when you waved goodbye into the sunset many moons ago. Perhaps your feline nature will make this the last if you have had 9 reincarnations.

[Zakath]

Probably part of his addictive or obsessive-compulsive personality.:think: Perhaps. Or perhaps I actually think I am doing some good here, at least according to the emails I receive occasionally.

Zak: I got the idea from you when you waved goodbye into the sunset many moons ago. Ahh, well. I didn't take an oath never to post here again and I'm not immutable like some deities, so I guess I'll chalk it up to changing my mind. :)

Perhaps your feline nature will make this the last if you have had 9 reincarnations.Says the poster with a lion as their avatar. :chuckle:

[Zakath]

Zakath has quit TOL about 9 times now.Has it been that many?!

:think:

Hey! You can't count going on vacation... :nono:

He loves us so much he just cant stay away. :DMust be the charming personalities of the staff. :D

[Charity]

If they don't line up, they're not enduring sound doctrine, they ought not to be allowed to claim the name of Jesus.
HI Aimiel
The lawless man feels that God has lost control down here,
that he would feel that he needed to sit on his throne,
The lawless man often is found to beleive in his heart that God dosnt care and with no fear he stands among the people condeming and judging who is Christs and who isint his.
But God knows who each one is, and who is following Christ
That when they should come across such evil that the earthquake will not move there foundations
He alows such people to exist so we may press on to firm foundations,
each one would need to move the lawless man out of the way so Christ may come and lead you.

For while he stands in the way preaching what sounds right you stand to perish from lack of understanding.
I say fear God with all your heart that you maynot be lead to the slaughter house,

Lawless men are caught in an understanding that they have no movement from,
they are void of any other understanding, condemed and set for this time and age.
They envy all that have ears to understand anything contrary to their understanding,
having been left now to burn within, in reward for there works.

[Aimiel]

I hear ya' Charity...

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

[Charity]

I hear ya' Charity...

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
No problem Aimiel
Christ was ordained of God to be the judge of the quick and dead

And his kingdom is here,

so I guess reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all long suffering

I don’t consider that condemning and harshness without love to people is the work of an evangelist
And I don’t consider their reaction back, as endured afflictions

As people who use the scripture in vain to puff themselves up, and murder the innocent,
Don’t be fooled the lawless man will be bold enough to use Gods word to maintain control,
And he will say he is rebuking.


charity

[koban]

I would guess that on THAT DAY most of us will be surprised about a few things. Those of us that ended up inside Heaven will likely be glad to learn the truth about the extent of our error. Those in Hell.. not so much!



"the extent of our error" - Outstanding deardelmar!!

I know that I am still struggling with the walk. Who among us can claim perfection?

only One.

[Charity]

"the extent of our error" - Outstanding deardelmar!!

I know that I am still struggling with the walk. Who among us can claim perfection?

only One.
Hi koban


Paul prays for us in .........Ephesians 3; 14, 21

charity

[Knight]

Might be a good time to bump or Statement of Faith.

[Knight]

There is one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

There is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Through Him all things were made. For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the Holy Spirit He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered death and was buried.

On the third day He rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory.

With His saints He will judge the living and the dead. And His kingdom will have no end.

There is one Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped.

He has spoken through the prophets and through the Scriptures.
God established the Body of Christ into which the Holy Spirit baptizes every new believer.

God offers salvation by grace through faith alone in the resurrected Christ.
The Bible records the true history of man including that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six literal days; only eight people survived a global flood; through great wonders God delivered Israel from Egypt; the prophets, Christ, and the apostles performed many miraculous deeds.

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, in their original state, are the inspired Word of God. God legislated morality out of love for His creation.
Men who reject God will suffer eternal damnation.

Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent. One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers, and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come.
Amen.

[Catatumba]

I guess it will fly alone..
It does have a couple of tricky parts or staments.
1."...true God from true God, of One Being with the Father."
2."...and His Kingdom will have no end."
Am I supposed to know what begoten means???

[Lighthouse]

Am I supposed to know what begoten means???
I would hope so.

[nanonator]

nothing like resurrecting an old thread, is there? BUT ......... seeing as how Knight referred me to it [I was looking for something really cooking around here :)] I figured, what the heck, so here goes ;)

actually, I wanted to zero in on a part of the statement of faith of TOL that was not addressed on this thread, but I also know it's been debated to death and probably on TOL, especially by KJVO advocates - and I just wanted to make a quick comment.

I really like the statement of faith overall. It was actually a relief considering what I have run into as far as the over all "christian" idea of what is Biblical truth ;) [it seems my second "career" in apologetic research has been reading statements of faith by the truck load :help: ]

the statement is this: "The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, in their original state, are the inspired Word of God." My thoughts are aimed at the phrase "in their original state". which would imply "only" when they were actually spoken by God as given by the Holy Spirit to the original author/writer.

please consider this. The OT was originally written in proto canaanite, hebrew, aramaic. We have no originals, so it seems a bit contradictive to say that we "only" believe that inspiration would be the "originals" when no one knows what that would be.

There is the statement in Psalm 12:7 made by God that He would preserve His Word forever. This is reiterated in the OT by Isaiah, and in the NT by Peter [I am aware of the controversy surrounding the psalm text]. Obviously, trust and faith in God's ability to do this is mandatory.

Inspired means to move, be guided by, influenced by the Divine [per Webster's]. As the word inspire does not appear in the Bible, we are stuck with that definition. I am aware of "God-breathed" per 2 Tim 3:16, which can be incorporated into the definition.

As Paul noted, the Word of God is understood by the spiritual man, not by the natural man. If we do not believe that the Bible is inspired, as we hold it in our hands, then we do not have the very Words of God and we are all deceived. Even though the Word has been mistranslated, errors abound, modern translations skewed and tilted, the basic fact is that one can be saved by reading the Gospel in the Bible - that makes it "inspired" by the thought and intent of God. It is a Living Word that transcends actual words and speaks to the spiritual man.

Yes, it would affect how one develops spiritually and theologically due to bias of translators or paraphrasers [some of the versions are downright demonic], but if God is Omniscient and Infinite, and we have a hunger and a love for God's Truth, He will lead us righteously. This means we have a duty to check out the translation we are using. Far too many christians are content to allow men with unclean hands to mess with the Word so it's "easier to understand". As someone I know once said - you mess with God's Word, He messes with your mind ;)

did I open up a can of worms? :doh:

[Anoetos]

Interesting that you combine an Eastern Orthdodox version of the creed with specifically Protestant soteriological tags...

[WizardofOz]

We share the same statement of faith with Denver Bible Church.

Is Bob Enyart the author of the "TOL Statement of Faith"? (http://www.denverbiblechurch.org/faith.html)

He sounds like an interesting fella.

[Aimiel]

There is one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

There is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Through Him all things were made. For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the Holy Spirit He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered death and was buried.

On the third day He rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory.

With His saints He will judge the living and the dead. And His kingdom will have no end.

There is one Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped.

He has spoken through the prophets and through the Scriptures.
God established the Body of Christ into which the Holy Spirit baptizes every new believer.

God offers salvation by grace through faith alone in the resurrected Christ.
The Bible records the true history of man including that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six literal days; only eight people survived a global flood; through great wonders God delivered Israel from Egypt; the prophets, Christ, and the apostles performed many miraculous deeds.

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, in their original state, are the inspired Word of God. God legislated morality out of love for His creation.
Men who reject God will suffer eternal damnation.

Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent. One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers, and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come.
Amen.Amen!!! :thumb:

[Knight]

You just said you are opposed to this in another thread. That you learned it here in fact.

Denial of OSAS is works based salvation.Nick, Nick... not every thread is a challenge thread. Let Aimiel give us an "Amen". :)

[Aimiel]

I didn't see OSAS described in the statement of faith. Is it in there? If it is I missed it. :idunno:

[godrulz]

You just said you are opposed to this in another thread. That you learned it here in fact.

Denial of OSAS is works based salvation.

This is a lame Calvinistic understanding. If you read Arminius, you would not be saying this. We are saved by grace through faith, the kind of faith that is ongoing, not punctiliar, continuing, not ceasing. There is no mention of saved by works or continuing in works, so it is a non-sequitur to say denying OSAS is works salvation (your accusation would be true if we claimed that we are saved by works vs faith and continued works vs continued faith...big difference since faith is NOT a work nor is continued faith).

The issue is conditional vs unconditional salvation/security (you see a conditional element or you would be a universalist). Both Calvinists and Arminians are in the grace by faith camp (justification), yet differ on perseverance of the saints, another issue that is not identical to justification (glorification...not uncond., causal chain).

The issue determinism vs free will, not faith vs works (evangelicals should all reject works for justification and perseverance).

Try being more sophisticated and less simplistic in your theological acumen.

The majority of Open Theists (you one?) also reject OSAS because of free will theism. You are being inconsistent to adopt it.

Oh, and synergism vs monergism (Calvinistic) is the other issue.

[Knight]

No arguing in this thread. Please stop, or infractions will follow.

[godrulz]

No arguing in this thread. Please stop, or infractions will follow.


What are the parameters for this thread? Can we interact with the statement of faith (pro/con)? What is the line between discussion/debate and 'arguing'?

What can we talk about relevant to the thread without infractions?:help:

[asrpcp.org]

Well written and well said.

[BiffSquared]

What are the parameters for this thread?
What can we talk about relevant to the thread without infractions?:help:

[Count Iblis]

On the third day He rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;

Where does the OT say that this would happen?