Who Maintains Your Salvation?

[God_Is_Truth]

If it's God, why would you ever worry about losing your salvation given that God is faithful and that which he has purposed he will bring to pass?


2 Corinthians 1
21Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,

22who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

1 Corinthians 1
9God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Timothy 2
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.



If it's you, how can you say salvation is by grace which by definition is unearned?


Ephesians 2
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

Romans 11
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.



If it's both, how can you say salvation is all of God?


Psalm 3
8Salvation belongs to the LORD

Jonah 2:9
Salvation is from the LORD

[Imrahil]

If it's God, why would you ever worry about losing your salvation given that God is faithful and that which he has purposed he will bring to pass?


That's why I don't worry.:)

[godrulz]

Good questions.

We know salvation is objectively provided and initiated by God ('all of God"= your 3rd point).

We know that not all are saved, despite His perfect provision (grounds of salvation=reason for which= grace, death/resurrection of Christ).

The other factor is a subjective, personal appropriation of His grace/salvation (conditions of salvation= not without which). Our response is repentant faith (the kind of faith that continues in love and trust). Faith is not a work. Our response does not mean we provide or earn salvation, nor do we initiate it. This response is not in our own strength and merit, but it does involve our wills and intellect. The Spirit of truth presses in on our wills and minds persuasively, but not coercively. Reconciliation is not causative nor unilateral. It involves two parties in a love relationship. Love can be spurned or fostered.


God is certainly faithful to keep all those who believe and continue to believe. This does not preclude the possibility of apostasy or falling away, as Scripture warns with force and sincerity (not insincerity or falsehood). Proof texts for OSAS must not ignore context or the other verses that show a conditionality to salvation and perseverance.

We are the weak link, not God. If we deny Him, He will disown us (Tim.). If our faith wavers without renunciation, He will be faithful to restore and keep us (Jude 24,25; Rom. 8). Even if we become godless and faithless, He will remain faithful and true. We have left Him. He did not initiate leaving us. His promises are still true, but He will not force people to remain in the faith if they selfishly, foolishly rebel. If He did this, He should and could unjustly save all men against their wills initially.

Your logic is too narrow and risks non sequitur...the conclusions do not necessarily follow the premises. There are alternate ways to express these ideas in point form that would not lead to false dichotomy (more than two ways to see things).

There is a sense salvation is all of God, but there is another sense it is not either/or, but both/and (God and man). We also must not blur distinctions between justification, sanctification, and glorification. Sanctification, for example, involves the ministry and work of the Spirit and our yielding/obedience, etc. (Rom. 6; Peter; Cor.).

We must affirm that salvation is by grace and God alone, but the clause about 'through faith' cannot be ignored. This does not mean faith is a work or self-righteousness.

Calvinism's attempt to explain things with TULIP creates more problems than it solves (limited atonement; irresistible grace; etc.).

The conditional clauses in Scripture must be studied: IF....THEN...

We have no need to worry if our hearts are turned to God, even if we struggle. He is faithful and is able to keep us from falling (Jude 24, 25). We have tremendous security in Christ, but unconditional eternal security (OSAS) goes beyond the biblical views of the nature of salvation and perseverance.

[42ndgen]

If it's God, why would you ever worry about losing your salvation given that God is faithful and that which he has purposed he will bring to pass?

They worry about losing their salvation Because they are not fully persuaded that God is faithful. They have not come to the place where they are fully persuaded that God will keep them no matter what may happen. The definition of faith in the Strong's concordance includes persuasion.

Rom 4:21 KJVA And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 8:34-39 KJVA Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. (38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now if you think that you can seperate yourself from God than think again I even found you in that last passage. Once we are fully persuaded by God than not even our own self can seperate us from the Love of God. How can I say this and where in the previous verse did I find how even we cannot seperate our own selves from His Love? Why I found my self even in the section of the verse that said "nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Each of us is there. And once we each individually come to the place where God persuades us that we cannot be seperated from His Love than we absolutely cannot be seperated.

I don't waste one second worrying about losing my salvation, because I am fully persuaded that nothing can seperate me from His love..

Grace and Peace Patrick

[genuineoriginal]

They worry about losing their salvation Because they are not fully persuaded that God is faithful. They have not come to the place where they are fully persuaded that God will keep them no matter what may happen. The definition of faith in the Strong's concordance includes persuasion.

Rom 4:21 KJVA And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 8:34-39 KJVA Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. (38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now if you think that you can seperate yourself from God than think again I even found you in that last passage. Once we are fully persuaded by God than not even our own self can seperate us from the Love of God. How can I say this and where in the previous verse did I find how even we cannot seperate our own selves from His Love? Why I found my self even in the section of the verse that said "nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Each of us is there. And once we each individually come to the place where God persuades us that we cannot be seperated from His Love than we absolutely cannot be seperated.

I don't waste one second worrying about losing my salvation, because I am fully persuaded that nothing can seperate me from His love..

Grace and Peace Patrick
Paul was not saying that God's love toward him was so great that there was nothing that could make God let go of him.

Paul was saying that his own love of God was so great that he would permit nothing to separate him from his love of God.

The key hinges on how "love of God" is applied. For another example of how "love of" is applied, check out this verse:
1 Timothy 6:10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

The money does not love the person, it is the object of the love.

Paul believed that salvation was by faith. He also believed that a person could err from the faith as shown in the verse I quoted above. Paul also believed that the new disciples had the choice of continuing n the faith or abandoning it because of the tribulation they faced:
Acts 14:21And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Paul went so far as to tell Timothy to hold on to his faith:
1 Timothy 1:18This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

[godrulz]

Those who worry about their salvation may need biblical assurance. The Holy Spirit testifies that we are children of God. Some who worry about their relationship with God are experiencing God's conviction. They are not careless sinners, but convicted sinners. Until they are converted sinners by receiving Christ, they cannot expect assurance. It is false assurance to say someone is OSAS based on a one time parroting of a 'sinners prayer' even though they persist in a state of unbelief.

I concur with 'genuineoriginal' that the warnings about falling away, apostasy, shipwrecking faith, etc. are not specious. They also do not contradict the grace, love, and faithfulness of God. God's grace and will for us can be resisted before or after conversion. Nothing separates us from His love except our willful renunciation of Christ and return to godlessness, unbelief, or false religion. He will continue to draw and convict, but 'election' is not a guarantee of outcome (cf. Israel, Saul, Judas, etc.). Our free moral agency is not negated at conversion.

Genuine, I gave you a rep point for bringing other relevant Scriptures to balance proof texts. What is your faith or denominational background? Any authors that have influenced you?

[God_Is_Truth]

Good questions.

We know salvation is objectively provided and initiated by God ('all of God"= your 3rd point).

:up:


We know that not all are saved, despite His perfect provision (grounds of salvation=reason for which= grace, death/resurrection of Christ).

at least from what i can see.


The other factor is a subjective, personal appropriation of His grace/salvation (conditions of salvation= not without which). Our response is repentant faith (the kind of faith that continues in love and trust). Faith is not a work. Our response does not mean we provide or earn salvation, nor do we initiate it. This response is not in our own strength and merit, but it does involve our wills and intellect. The Spirit of truth presses in on our wills and minds persuasively, but not coercively. Reconciliation is not causative nor unilateral. It involves two parties in a love relationship. Love can be spurned or fostered.

so far so good.


God is certainly faithful to keep all those who believe and continue to believe. This does not preclude the possibility of apostasy or falling away, as Scripture warns with force and sincerity (not insincerity or falsehood). Proof texts for OSAS must not ignore context or the other verses that show a conditionality to salvation and perseverance.

it's really rather simple. either God maintains it, and we have absolutely nothing to worry about; or we maintain it, and have everything to worry about. even my third choice of both God and us would mean that it depends entirely on us as to what God does.


We are the weak link, not God.

what is left to be weak? our old nature was crucified. it died, it ended, it is finished. what is left is the new creation created by God himself. i can't image any reason to think that this new creation would be some sort of "weak link" when it itself has no sin, is untainted and is perfect, for it is in Christ.


If we deny Him, He will disown us (Tim.).

denying him is quite different from losing faith. denying him implies a denial of the faith, not a loss of it.


If our faith wavers without renunciation, He will be faithful to restore and keep us (Jude 24,25; Rom. 8). Even if we become godless and faithless, He will remain faithful and true. We have left Him. He did not initiate leaving us. His promises are still true, but He will not force people to remain in the faith if they selfishly, foolishly rebel. If He did this, He should and could unjustly save all men against their wills initially.

why would God ever leave his own child? why would he ever disown one who was his own? do you not remember the prodigal son parable? the son did not cease to be a son when he went his own way did he? surely not!


Your logic is too narrow and risks non sequitur...the conclusions do not necessarily follow the premises. There are alternate ways to express these ideas in point form that would not lead to false dichotomy (more than two ways to see things).

my thread here was intended to narrow down the alternatives.


There is a sense salvation is all of God, but there is another sense it is not either/or, but both/and (God and man). We also must not blur distinctions between justification, sanctification, and glorification. Sanctification, for example, involves the ministry and work of the Spirit and our yielding/obedience, etc. (Rom. 6; Peter; Cor.).

initial salvation is competetely and totally the work of God. the act whereby the sinner is declared righteous and perfect by the blood of Christ and adopted as a son into the body of Christ is all the work of God alone.


We must affirm that salvation is by grace and God alone, but the clause about 'through faith' cannot be ignored. This does not mean faith is a work or self-righteousness.

and what does one do to maintain faith? pray harder? trust more? confess sins? those are all works my friend. if one has to do anything to maintain his standing in Christ, then salvation is no longer by grace, but by works.


The conditional clauses in Scripture must be studied: IF....THEN...


how about this one:

Romans 10
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

it says that IF we confess Jesus as Lord and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead, THEN we will be saved. nothing is said of perseverance, nothing of continual believing, nothing of works, nothing of maintaining faith or anything like it. only a simple truth that if we proclaim Jesus as Lord, and believe God raised him from the dead, we will be saved.


We have no need to worry if our hearts are turned to God, even if we struggle. He is faithful and is able to keep us from falling (Jude 24, 25). We have tremendous security in Christ, but unconditional eternal security (OSAS) goes beyond the biblical views of the nature of salvation and perseverance.

if he is able to keep us from falling, why do some fall? did God not care about them? does he not go looking for the sheep that wanders from the fold and when he finds it does he not bring it back?

what kind of security do we really have if it's dependent on us? if making sure we remain until the day we die is up to us, i'd be worried. that's not security, that's insecurity my friend.

[Lighthouse]

Go, God_Is_Truth, Go!:bannana:

[God_Is_Truth]

Go, God_Is_Truth, Go!:bannana:

how's the football phrase go?

"he could.....go...all....the......way....touchdown!"

oh the irony of that phrase in a thread about going the distance with salvation! :D

[logos_x]

What LH said!

[godrulz]

The work and ministry of the Holy Spirit is able to maintain us. The grace and will of God and the ministry and work of the Holy Spirit can be resisted. If we are in Christ, we are eternally secure. If we are not in Christ, or are no longer in Christ, we are not secure. Physical birth is not identical to spiritual birth. Once a physical son, always a genetic son. Spiritual birth and sonship involves adoption, relationship, transformation, but it is not metaphysically irreversible. Perhaps a marriage analogy, like Paul used about Christ and the Church, also conveys truth. We can divorce a spouse and end a relationship. We still have memories, but their life together is dead and over. Eternal life is in Christ, not in our bones (it is not a physical thing). If we are in Christ, we have life. If we are outside Christ, we do not have life (I Jn. 5). There is no reason to think one cannot move from unbelief to belief or from belief to unbelief.

Our old nature was crucified, yet some believers struggle with sin. Salvation and sanctification do not destroy our minds and wills.

The prodigal son returned to the Father. Others have shipwrecked their faith and wandered fatally far from God, breaking His heart and damning themselves. The perfect Parent did not fail (cf. Israel). Israel and us are culpable if we resist and rebel to the point of lostness.

How is renouncing and denying Christ and the Faith not a loss of it. The person ends up just as they were before conversion, and in the same boat practially and in reality as the masses of unbelievers. Salvation is not sugar coating or fire insurance that allows us to do and believe anything, just like the reprobate, and still think we are secure in Christ, even though we are no longer in Him, by definition.

[godrulz]

Go, God_Is_Truth, Go!:bannana:

I understand and respect your views, but I do not think they encompass all the relevant Scriptural teaching. I think there is a subtle confusing of morals and metaphysics (not the lay terms, but the technical, philosophical meanings).

[Lighthouse]

And I think you're just a dunderhead.

[God_Is_Truth]

If we are in Christ, we are eternally secure. If we are not in Christ, or are no longer in Christ, we are not secure.

but this would require an act of God seeing as He is the only one who can put us in Christ (save us). given that God has declared us sealed (like a time capsule is sealed), i see little reason to think we would ever be unsealed until the appropriate time (like a time capsule), say judgement day.


Physical birth is not identical to spiritual birth. Once a physical son, always a genetic son. Spiritual birth and sonship involves adoption, relationship, transformation, but it is not metaphysically irreversible.

not only have we been adopted, we have been born of God. we are sons by birth!

John 1
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


Perhaps a marriage analogy, like Paul used about Christ and the Church, also conveys truth. We can divorce a spouse and end a relationship. We still have memories, but their life together is dead and over.

would God ever divorce us? could we ever get divorced without his agreeing to it?


Eternal life is in Christ, not in our bones (it is not a physical thing).

it is in our spirit, but will be in our bodies later. eternal life just means life that never ends. life is something we have both physically and spiritually.

Romans 8
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


There is no reason to think one cannot move from unbelief to belief or from belief to unbelief.

i fully agree.


Our old nature was crucified, yet some believers struggle with sin. Salvation and sanctification do not destroy our minds and wills.

we still struggle because we are so used to living in the flesh. even though it died, our minds have not been renewed to our newness and so we sometimes live as we used to. this is why Paul stressed renewing of one's mind in order to understands God's will.

Romans 12
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.


The prodigal son returned to the Father.

would he have suddenly lost his sonship if he'd never returned? of course not!


How is renouncing and denying Christ and the Faith not a loss of it.

because one can know completely that Jesus is God and that he rose from the dead and not care one single bit. faith entails belief and one can certainly reject Christ while believing everything about him. so perhaps i overstated previously. one can certainly still believe in Christ and yet deny him completely.


The person ends up just as they were before conversion, and in the same boat practially and in reality as the masses of unbelievers. Salvation is not sugar coating or fire insurance that allows us to do and believe anything, just like the reprobate, and still think we are secure in Christ, even though we are no longer in Him, by definition.

that's the whole point of grace! it doesn't depend on us! it's unearned! it's undeserved! grace, grace, wonderful grace! it's about Christ, not us. grace doesn't seem right, but that's what's so incredible about it being given toward us who are sinners, wretches. we are so undeserving of any of God's love, so unworthy of any of Him, and yet he gives us himself entirely! praise be to his wonderful name for such an amazing thing!

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound.......

[God_Is_Truth]

And I think you're just a dunderhead.

1 Thessalonians 5
14We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

2 Timothy 2
24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged

[Lighthouse]

I'm admonishing him.:eek:

He knows I'm just messin with him. But he's still wrong, and I'm done being patient. I've been patient. He hasn't gotten it, and I don't know that he ever will.

[God_Is_Truth]

I'm admonishing him.:eek:

sure you are lol


He knows I'm just messin with him. But he's still wrong, and I'm done being patient. I've been patient. He hasn't gotten it, and I don't know that he ever will.

you can be patient with him without needing to continually show him every mistake. in fact, patience i think would require you not to show them all at once, but one at a time. if seeing him post makes you impatient then i recommend just putting him on ignore until the time when you feel like responding to his points. no one makes you read them, no one makes you post, and if one does not listen, you are free to let another person attempt to instruct instead, while you go to another person who may listen better.

[Lighthouse]

I've done that as well. I've been arguing this with him for over a year, now.

[42ndgen]

Paul was not saying that God's love toward him was so great that there was nothing that could make God let go of him.

Paul was saying that his own love of God was so great that he would permit nothing to separate him from his love of God

Actually the objject of God's love is us and when we make God the object of our love, and we come to the place where we have pressed from the point of doubt to full persuasion than that is the point that I was talking about in an individuals life where he is fully persuaded that nothing can seperate Him from the love of God, and nothing absolutely can. That is what that verse is saying. That passage in Romans is dealing with an obtainable goal for our love in Him.

Paul believed that salvation was by faith. He also believed that a person could err from the faith as shown in the verse I quoted above. Paul also believed that the new disciples had the choice of continuing n the faith or abandoning it because of the tribulation they faced:
Acts 14:21And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

I understand that a person can turn around anytime and walk away from the Kingdom of God because of tribulation. But that is only possible because they have not come to the point of full persusasion yet. Once they have come to that place then it is impossible for them to be seperated from God, because nothing can seperate them from His Love. That is what Romans 8 declares. I am talking about being someone who is mature in the Lord, and you are bringing upthe relationship that a babe or a child has. There is a difference. But our experiences as children does not disprove the reality that is avaliable to us as adults who have come to full persuasion in Him

Grace and Peace Patrick

[logos_x]

Actually the objject of God's love is us and when we make God the object of our love, and we come to the place where we have pressed from the point of doubt to full persuasion than that is the point that I was talking about in an individuals life where he is fully persuaded that nothing can seperate Him from the love of God, and nothing absolutely can. That is what that verse is saying. That passage in Romans is dealing with an obtainable goal for our love in Him.



I understand that a person can turn around anytime and walk away from the Kingdom of God because of tribulation. But that is only possible because they have not come to the point of full persusasion yet. Once they have come to that place then it is impossible for them to be seperated from God, because nothing can seperate them from His Love. That is what Romans 8 declares. I am talking about being someone who is mature in the Lord, and you are bringing upthe relationship that a babe or a child has. There is a difference. But our experiences as children does not disprove the reality that is avaliable to us as adults who have come to full persuasion in Him

Grace and Peace Patrick


:cheers:

[godrulz]

And I think you're just a dunderhead.

Good response, as usual
:bang:

[Lighthouse]

Oh come on. I was just messin' with ya.

[godrulz]

I'm admonishing him.:eek:

He knows I'm just messin with him. But he's still wrong, and I'm done being patient. I've been patient. He hasn't gotten it, and I don't know that he ever will.


I cannot go against the illumination I have. I am satisfied that your concepts and proof texts have an alternate, more cogent biblical understanding. I suggest we do not shed blood over an issue that has been controversial among godly, capable believers for centuries.

[Lighthouse]

The assurance you have of your salvation should be enough. Those who are not assured are most likely not saved.

[godrulz]

The assurance you have of your salvation should be enough. Those who are not assured are most likely not saved.

Hyper-Arminians think they need to run to an altar and get 'saved' or assurance on a regular basis. Some new Christians require biblical assurance to deal with old guilt issues and to understand the grace of God.

Many who do not have assurance are not saved. We should not do the work of the Spirit and tell people they are saved just because they parrot a 'sinner's prayer' without genuine repentant faith.

For those who are saved by grace through faith, the assurance of the Spirit should be normative and provide tremendous security (Jude 24, 25). It is based on Christ's finished work, not on our own works (no, I am still not OSAS).

[Lighthouse]

Hyper-Arminians think they need to run to an altar and get 'saved' or assurance on a regular basis. Some new Christians require biblical assurance to deal with old guilt issues and to understand the grace of God.
I agree. But it's quite odd to think that people who beleive God knows everything that will ever happen would move people from saved to unsaved, like that.

Many who do not have assurance are not saved. We should not do the work of the Spirit and tell people they are saved just because they parrot a 'sinner's prayer' without genuine repentant faith.
No kidding.

For those who are saved by grace through faith, the assurance of the Spirit should be normative and provide tremendous security (Jude 24, 25). It is based on Christ's finished work, not on our own works (no, I am still not OSAS).
Do you think that anyone who is assured by the Holy Spirit would ever walk away?

[genuineoriginal]

Genuine, I gave you a rep point for bringing other relevant Scriptures to balance proof texts. What is your faith or denominational background? Any authors that have influenced you?
I was raised in an evangelical Christian home, then left the faith as a teenager around the time my parents divorced. After many years of wandering from faithlessness to rebellion, I ended up returning to the Bible. At that point in my life I was involved in pagan beliefs and was actively doing divination. When I returned to the Bible, I made the decision that I would believe the entire Bible because it was the only truth I found.
My current religion is Messianic Judaism. This choice came about because it was the one that closest matches my belief in the entire Bible, not just the cut and paste version that was taught in the Evangelical Church I was raised in.
Because of the method of my coming back to faith, I question a lot of the traditional beliefs. I look first at what the Bible says, then I will either accept or reject the teachings of man based on whether it holds up under the light of Scripture.
I have read a lot of authors, but I am not sure what the influence has been.

[genuineoriginal]

Do you think that anyone who is assured by the Holy Spirit would ever walk away?
It is possible to lose your assurance. When you quench the Spirit, you can no longer hear Him. He cannot assure you of your salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:19Quench not the Spirit.

When this happens, you see verses that show you that you have fallen from grace and cannot return. You see that your end is to be burned in Hell.
Hebrews 6:4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

This is confirmed by further admonitions to keep from sinning because there is no longer any sacrifice that can atone for it:
Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

So, after having left the faith and entering into pagan worship and sexual sins, I had no hope of salvation. At that point in my life, I found it easier to disbelieve in God than to torment myself with my future judgement. I had drawn back into perdition, and faced the lake of fire.
Hebrews 10:38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

I was drawn back to the word of God, but did not believe it could still apply to me. I tried to regain my salvation by works, but became even more miserable inside. Then because of unrepentant sins, I lost everything. It was at that point that I realized that God was chastening me, and I began to understand that He still loved me, even though I had abandoned the faith. He was inviting me to repent and return to fellowship with him.
Revelation 3:17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I began reading the Bible in earnest, and learned that God gave us the free will to love Him or reject him. He did not hold our righteousness of yesterday as good enough for salvation, nor did he hold our righteousness of yesterday as horrible enough for damnation. He looks only at where we are TODAY.
Ezekiel 18:21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

As long as it is TODAY, we can still repent, accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross as atonement for our sins, and be restored to fellowship with God. I learned that we are made partakers of Christ if WE hold our faith until the end.
Hebrews 3:12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

I learned that it was not a one time "sinners prayer" that resulted in salvation, but instead it was loving God enough to endure until the end, when salvation would come.
Matthew 24:12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

As far as my sins, I found that I could repent, get back up, and keep going. It was not the fall that would keep me from God, but staying fallen.
Proverbs 24:16For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Sorry this post is so long, but I lived through this, so my understanding is quite different from the OSAS.

[godrulz]

I agree. But it's quite odd to think that people who beleive God knows everything that will ever happen would move people from saved to unsaved, like that.


No kidding.


Do you think that anyone who is assured by the Holy Spirit would ever walk away?


I know Satan was not born again, but he was a free moral agent (Lucifer) who rebelled against great light. Adam also sinned despite intimacy with God. He was restored, but he could have went the way of some of his progeny and became wicked and reprobate to the end. There have been people assured of a great inheritance if they remain Muslims or in good standing with their parents. Some have walked away from this to become Christians or ski bums. I see no inherent reason for someone to be incapable of walking away from truth to believe a lie despite the peace of God they once knew. I am sure you could find people in many false religions or on skid row who once testified of assurance and knowledge of Christ. The issue is more could they walk away, rather than would they walk away. Hundreds of millions of Christians do not fall away and have no desire to. You do not have to look far to find those who once flourished in our churches and loved God who now are far from Him. Some come back, while others die in a state of unbelief, apostasy, rebellion, etc. Anecdote does not prove anything. I would hope my previous arguments are consistent with Scriptural principles.

In the Arminian view, things play out like a movie. God sees the end and movie in progress. He is supposedly above time and sees the whole timeline in an eternal now moment. On a person's individual timeline, they could be unsaved, saved, unsaved, etc. without God interfering. He simply knows without causing. I disagree with this, but do not see a problem with lack of assurance among hyper-Arminians. They need sound teaching if they in fact are saved.

[godrulz]

I was raised in an evangelical Christian home, then left the faith as a teenager around the time my parents divorced. After many years of wandering from faithlessness to rebellion, I ended up returning to the Bible. At that point in my life I was involved in pagan beliefs and was actively doing divination. When I returned to the Bible, I made the decision that I would believe the entire Bible because it was the only truth I found.
My current religion is Messianic Judaism. This choice came about because it was the one that closest matches my belief in the entire Bible, not just the cut and paste version that was taught in the Evangelical Church I was raised in.
Because of the method of my coming back to faith, I question a lot of the traditional beliefs. I look first at what the Bible says, then I will either accept or reject the teachings of man based on whether it holds up under the light of Scripture.
I have read a lot of authors, but I am not sure what the influence has been.

Theoretical question: Do you think you would have gone to heaven if you died in a state of rebellion and pagan belief?

Welcome back to the Father's house and heart!

Oops. I just read your next post. You are one among many who did not believe the lie that you are OSAS despite ungodly rebellion. If it did not matter, you might as well have the best of both worlds. Some return to the fold, as you did, but others die in their sins rejecting the One they once knew and loved. Others did not really know Him, but had a form of godliness, but were not transformed.

[42ndgen]

The place of full persuasion is the same as making your calling and election sure. When a person has pressed into full persuasion they cannot be seperated from the love of the Lord. Nor can they fall.because they have added to their faith virtue; knowledge; temperance; patience; godliness; brotherly kindness; charity. And scripture declares that when we have added all these things diligently than...2Pe 1:8-11 KJVA For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

There is a higher walk avaliable to us if we will be diligent to press into it. :idea:

Grace and Peace Patrick

[godrulz]

The place of full persuasion is the same as making your calling and election sure. When a person has pressed into full persuasion they cannot be seperated from the love of the Lord. Nor can they fall.because they have added to their faith virtue; knowledge; temperance; patience; godliness; brotherly kindness; charity. And scripture declares that when we have added all these things diligently than...2Pe 1:8-11 KJVA For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

There is a higher walk avaliable to us if we will be diligent to press into it. :idea:

Grace and Peace Patrick

The question of the thread is who maintains our salvation?

Are you suggesting that it is both God and man, or just God, or just man?

Do you agree with OSAS?

[42ndgen]

The question of the thread is who maintains our salvation?

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rom 16:25-27 KJVR Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (26) But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (27) To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and keep you from evil.

Are you suggesting that it is both God and man, or just God, or just man?

I would say both. God gives us grace that bringeth salvation and then grace teaches us what we must do to walk with God.

Tit 2:11-14 KJVR For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; (14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jam 1:22-25 KJVR But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (23) For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: (24) For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. (25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Do you agree with OSAS?

No I believe once fully persuaded by God we will always be fully persuaded. There is a vast difference.

[godrulz]

No I believe once fully persuaded by God we will always be fully persuaded. There is a vast difference.

I gave rep points for balanced view with attempt to support with verses. Could you expand on the above statement? Charles Templeton (contemporary evangelist with Billy Graham) once was persuaded of the Gospel and persuaded others successfully. He died agnostic or possibly atheist, renouncing Christ and Christianity. I met a pastor that did a radio interview with him. He said Charles felt he was a believer. This pastor also fell he was a believer who apostasized. It seems to me it is possible to reject great light and persuasion. It is incomprehensible, foolish, stupid, etc., but it seems theoretically possible to change one's mind and will, even to the point of believing a lie after knowing truth.

[42ndgen]

There are babes, children, and adults in the Lord. We can falsely assume just because we have heard something that we possess it in the Spirit. We can even consider ourselves to be mature in the Lord, but if we can fall than we have not made our election sure yet. We are not as mature as we think we are. We have deceived ourselves.

When we redefine faith to mean what we have chosen to believe because our church believes that particular way, we set our selves up for a fall. We can believe Healing is possible but end up never experiencing it in our lives. This kind of faith may or may not happen. But true biblical faith is where God speaks and annoints something to our hearing and it comes to pass just like He said it would. True faith has absolutely no room for doubt because God has chosen to teach us what to believe, and walk out in Him..And He insures it will come to pass the way He intended it to.

It is one thing to teach ourselves the Word, and it is totally another if God teaches us what He means by His word.

It takes a humble man or woman to trust wholely on the Lord to show you what He wants to. A person who has allowed the Lord to fully persuade them that their is nothing that can seperate them from the Love of the Father will be like a man that walks on the waters of adversity with Jesus. The storms of life cannot bother Him and seperate Him from the Lord, because He knows He is not walking alone, but that the Lord is with Him.

We can call what we believe faith but if we have doubt than it really is not the faith that I am talking about.

[Agape4Robin]

There are babes, children, and adults in the Lord. We can falsely assume just because we have heard something that we possess it in the Spirit. We can even consider ourselves to be mature in the Lord, but if we can fall than we have not made our election sure yet. We are not as mature as we think we are. We have deceived ourselves.

When we redefine faith to mean what we have chosen to believe because our church believes that particular way, we set our selves up for a fall. We can believe Healing is possible but end up never experiencing it in our lives. This kind of faith may or may not happen. But true biblical faith is where God speaks and annoints something to our hearing and it comes to pass just like He said it would. True faith has absolutely no room for doubt because God has chosen to teach us what to believe, and walk out in Him..And He insures it will come to pass the way He intended it to.

It is one thing to teach ourselves the Word, and it is totally another if God teaches us what He means by His word.

It takes a humble man or woman to trust wholely on the Lord to show you what He wants to. A person who has allowed the Lord to fully persuade them that their is nothing that can seperate them from the Love of the Father will be like a man that walks on the waters of adversity with Jesus. The storms of life cannot bother Him and seperate Him from the Lord, because He knows He is not walking alone, but that the Lord is with Him.

We can call what we believe faith but if we have doubt than it really is not the faith that I am talking about.
I wonder if satan is also an example of this. Good turning bad. Maybe wasn't good to begin with? Hhhhmmmmmmm.........but then doesn't God say he was perfect at one time, until iniquity was found in him? :think:

[genuineoriginal]

I wonder if satan is also an example of this. Good turning bad. Maybe wasn't good to begin with? Hhhhmmmmmmm.........but then doesn't God say he was perfect at one time, until iniquity was found in him? :think:
I believe you have hit upon the main problem with OSAS. That belief system says that there is a certain point in your life when you become "saved." From then on, nothing you do or believe, even the most heinous of crimes or the worst blasphemy of God, can take away your salvation.
My belief is that the free will God gave us allows us to choose between life and death, good and evil, until we die, and that if we die in unbelief and wickedness, no matter when we said the "sinner's prayer" or reached the point of full persuasion, we have cast our lots in with the unbelievers who will be destroyed in the lake of fire. It is only if we continue in the faith, regardless of lapses into unbelief, that we enter the kingdom of God.

[42ndgen]

Hi genuineoriginal:

A person that has come to the place of being fully persuaded will not cast their lot with the unbelievers. They only seek to please the Father. And being fully persuaded is the same as being one that continually walks in faith. There is absolutely no difference between the two.

One who is fully persuaded is one who has faith: for faith is defined as persuasion in the Strong's. And has added to their faith virtue; knowledge; temperance; patience; godliness; brotherly kindness; charity. And scripture declares that when we have added all these things diligently than...2Pe 1:8-11 KJVA For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Grace and Peace Patrick

[genuineoriginal]

Hi genuineoriginal:

A person that has come to the place of being fully persuaded will not cast their lot with the unbelievers. They only seek to please the Father. And being fully persuaded is the same as being one that continually walks in faith. There is absolutely no difference between the two.

One who is fully persuaded is one who has faith: for faith is defined as persuasion in the Strong's. And has added to their faith virtue; knowledge; temperance; patience; godliness; brotherly kindness; charity. And scripture declares that when we have added all these things diligently than...2Pe 1:8-11 KJVA For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Grace and Peace Patrick
Right.
My question is: How you know that you have reached the point of being fully persuaded (salvation)? When you give diligence to make your calling and election sure, then you are working towards salvation. At which point do you know you made it?
I believe you must keep working out your own salvation until the end (death or rapture).
Philippians 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Even Paul believed in continuing to press on towards the prize of resurrection from the dead. Even after knowing that he had already attained this, he continued to press on.
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

[Lighthouse]

I believe you have hit upon the main problem with OSAS. That belief system says that there is a certain point in your life when you become "saved." From then on, nothing you do or believe, even the most heinous of crimes or the worst blasphemy of God, can take away your salvation.
Do I have to explain this again?

How were you saved? Was it anythign you did? the answer is, "No." And you can not lose your salvation based on anythign you do, because nothing you did saved you. This is not a problem, but Biblical truth. Salvation is completley seperate from works. Completely.

My belief is that the free will God gave us allows us to choose between life and death, good and evil, until we die, and that if we die in unbelief and wickedness, no matter when we said the "sinner's prayer" or reached the point of full persuasion, we have cast our lots in with the unbelievers who will be destroyed in the lake of fire. It is only if we continue in the faith, regardless of lapses into unbelief, that we enter the kingdom of God.
Prove it.

Let me guess, you think that God knows every detail of every future event, don't you? And despite this, you think God will save some people, then unsave them, then save them, and so on and so forth, even though He knows that they will go to hell anyway. Do you see how ludicrous this is?!

And here I am, believing the future can not be known, because it does nto exist, and I see the Bible saying that God saves us once, and that's it. Nothing changed after that. Because salvation is all of God, and none of us. No matter what men might think, the Bible is clear that we are saved only by grace, and that we are sealed until the day of redemption.

[genuineoriginal]

Do I have to explain this again?

How were you saved? Was it anythign you did? the answer is, "No." And you can not lose your salvation based on anythign you do, because nothing you did saved you. This is not a problem, but Biblical truth. Salvation is completley seperate from works. Completely.
I am saying that the salvation I am referring to is a future event called the resurrection. It is the salvation from God's wrath at the judgment seat.

My belief is that the free will God gave us allows us to choose between life and death, good and evil, until we die, and that if we die in unbelief and wickedness, no matter when we said the "sinner's prayer" or reached the point of full persuasion, we have cast our lots in with the unbelievers who will be destroyed in the lake of fire. It is only if we continue in the faith, regardless of lapses into unbelief, that we enter the kingdom of God. Prove it.
Here is the proof: Ezekiel 18:20-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=18&version=9&context=chapter)

Let me guess, you think that God knows every detail of every future event, don't you? And despite this, you think God will save some people, then unsave them, then save them, and so on and so forth, even though He knows that they will go to hell anyway. Do you see how ludicrous this is?!
I don't believe any of that foolishness.

And here I am, believing the future can not be known, because it does nto exist, and I see the Bible saying that God saves us once, and that's it. Nothing changed after that. Because salvation is all of God, and none of us. No matter what men might think, the Bible is clear that we are saved only by grace, and that we are sealed until the day of redemption.

I believe the same thing with the exception that I believe that salvation is a promise for the time of the rapture when Jesus gathers us together to give us our inheritance. The holy Spirit seals us, which is the mark that we are to be redeemed and raptured. This seal is the earnest (think of it as a claim check) to receive our inheritance.
Ephesians 1:9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I believe that quenching the spirit can void the inheritance.
1 Thessalonians 5:19Quench not the Spirit.

I believe that Christians without the Spirit are the brides without the oil.
Matthew 25:1-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=matthew%2025&version1=9)

I believe that the Christians who work iniquity will be told that Jesus never knew them, and will not enter into the kingdom of heaven, even if they said the "sinner's prayer."
Matthew 7:17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I believe that repentance can bring restoration of the promise.

[Lighthouse]

I am saying that the salvation I am referring to is a future event called the resurrection. It is the salvation from God's wrath at the judgment seat.
Okay. Still, our works have no bearing on our salvation.:nono:

Here is the proof: Ezekiel 18:20-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=18&version=9&context=chapter)
This is before the cross.

I don't believe any of that foolishness.
That the future is closed? Good.


I believe the same thing with the exception that I believe that salvation is a promise for the time of the rapture when Jesus gathers us together to give us our inheritance. The holy Spirit seals us, which is the mark that we are to be redeemed and raptured. This seal is the earnest (think of it as a claim check) to receive our inheritance.
Ephesians 1:9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
You're flip-flopping.

I believe that quenching the spirit can void the inheritance.
1 Thessalonians 5:19Quench not the Spirit.
Anything else to back this up? Do you think it voids sonship?

I believe that Christians without the Spirit are the brides without the oil.
Matthew 25:1-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=matthew%2025&version1=9)
And are therefore are not Christians at all.

I believe that the Christians who work iniquity will be told that Jesus never knew them, and will not enter into the kingdom of heaven, even if they said the "sinner's prayer."
Matthew 7:17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
If He never knew them, then He never knew them. You can't have it both ways.

I believe that repentance can bring restoration of the promise.
How often is repentance required?

[genuineoriginal]

How often is repentance required?
Jesus sent his own words to the Church in Ephesus and told them:
Revelation 2:5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
. . .
7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

To the Church in Pergamos he said:
Revelation 2:16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

He said about Jezebel:
Revelation 2:21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

and told the church of Thyatira
Revelation 2:25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

To the church in Sardis He said:
Revelation 3:3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
. . .
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

And to the church of the Laodiceans He said:
Revelation 3:19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
. . .
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The church is called to repent in order to receive the promise. An adoption is not final until the adopted child is taken into his Father's House.

[Lighthouse]

:yawn:

[godrulz]

Do I have to explain this again?

How were you saved? Was it anythign you did? the answer is, "No." And you can not lose your salvation based on anythign you do, because nothing you did saved you. This is not a problem, but Biblical truth. Salvation is completley seperate from works. Completely.


Prove it.

Let me guess, you think that God knows every detail of every future event, don't you? And despite this, you think God will save some people, then unsave them, then save them, and so on and so forth, even though He knows that they will go to hell anyway. Do you see how ludicrous this is?!

And here I am, believing the future can not be known, because it does nto exist, and I see the Bible saying that God saves us once, and that's it. Nothing changed after that. Because salvation is all of God, and none of us. No matter what men might think, the Bible is clear that we are saved only by grace, and that we are sealed until the day of redemption.

Pressed to your logical conclusion, all men should be saved unconditionally. Faith, love, and continuing in faith and love are not works. There are conditions to salvation (repentant faith). Salvation is initiated and provided by God, but we must respond and appropriate it. This is not a work or self-salvation. If you deny this (which you do not), there is no reason why God would not save everyone unconditionally. We do not earn our salvation, but we do something...respond to the convincing, conviction, drawing of the Spirit. It is self-evident we can reject the grace of God. If it is possible to not respond to God before salvation, there is nothing inherent in salvation (which is not an irreversible, physical change) that precludes us to fail to follow through with faith and love. This is not saying we are stronger than God, but that God does not coerce salvation initially nor its continuance to the end. We are in the image of God and can change our wills and minds as long as we are alive, whether believer or unbeliever.

[Agape4Robin]

QUOTE=Lighthouse
How were you saved? Was it anythign you did? the answer is, "No." And you can not lose your salvation based on anythign you do, because nothing you did saved you. This is not a problem, but Biblical truth. Salvation is completley seperate from works. Completely.
Hi :Brandon:
While I wholeheartedly agree with you about salvation being seperate from works, I believe that "being saved" is more than just intellectual understanding of God's grace and mercy, through Jesus Christ. It is a free gift of God. In order that we might be saved, we must accept this gift conditional upon repentance. While it is not of works, it is something we must do in order to recieve this gift. No repentance? No grace.


Let me guess, you think that God knows every detail of every future event, don't you?
I do believe that God does in fact know the details of every future event. This is shown throughout the Bible where prophecies were given by God to the prophets. There is amazing details in the OT concerning the messianic prophecies. There is the book of Revelation....that has prophecies yet to be fulfilled.
If God did not know the details of future events, could He be an Omniscient God?

And despite this, you think God will save some people, then unsave them, then save them, and so on and so forth, even though He knows that they will go to hell anyway. Do you see how ludicrous this is?!
This is infact ludicris. Jesus prayed in the garden prior to His death that those who God gave Him, He has kept and will not be lost.


And here I am, believing the future can not be known, because it does nto exist, and I see the Bible saying that God saves us once, and that's it. Nothing changed after that. Because salvation is all of God, and none of us. No matter what men might think, the Bible is clear that we are saved only by grace, and that we are sealed until the day of redemption.
The future is not known to us because it does not exist for us. We are of a finite time and place. Time that exists for us does not exist for God because He is from everlasting to everlasting. I believe that God does save us once and for all time. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. While we may not know the future, God does....

[Lighthouse]

Pressed to your logical conclusion, all men should be saved unconditionally. Faith, love, and continuing in faith and love are not works. There are conditions to salvation (repentant faith). Salvation is initiated and provided by God, but we must respond and appropriate it. This is not a work or self-salvation. If you deny this (which you do not), there is no reason why God would not save everyone unconditionally. We do not earn our salvation, but we do something...respond to the convincing, conviction, drawing of the Spirit. It is self-evident we can reject the grace of God. If it is possible to not respond to God before salvation, there is nothing inherent in salvation (which is not an irreversible, physical change) that precludes us to fail to follow through with faith and love. This is not saying we are stronger than God, but that God does not coerce salvation initially nor its continuance to the end. We are in the image of God and can change our wills and minds as long as we are alive, whether believer or unbeliever.
No. Pressed to my logical conclusion, anyone who has ever accepted Jesus are saved, and will remain so, always.

Salvation has nothing to do with physicality. It's all spiritual.

And if we're so much like God, how come we sin? We were made in His image, but we fall short of His glory.

[godrulz]

Ps. 90:2 God is from everlasting to everlasting. This does not have to be understood as timelessness. Rev. 1:8 uses tensed phrases about God. An everlasting duration of time with no beginning and no ending is just as eternal as an 'eternal now' timeless concept of eternity. God is everlasting does not mean God is timeless.

Prophecies indicate that God knows some of the future as settled. The Revelation prophecies will take place, but they are not as detailed and specific as you might assume. The Messianic prophecies are within God's control. It is not reasonable to extrapolate from the specific to the general and assume because some of the future is settled (what God purposes to bring to pass by His ability), that all of it is exhaustively settled and foreknown. It is self-evident that some of the future (free choices) must be unsettled, open, and unknowable (except as possibilities until they become actualities).

[Agape4Robin]

Ps. 90:2 God is from everlasting to everlasting. This does not have to be understood as timelessness. Rev. 1:8 uses tensed phrases about God. An everlasting duration of time with no beginning and no ending is just as eternal as an 'eternal now' timeless concept of eternity. God is everlasting does not mean God is timeless.

Prophecies indicate that God knows some of the future as settled. The Revelation prophecies will take place, but they are not as detailed and specific as you might assume. The Messianic prophecies are within God's control. It is not reasonable to extrapolate from the specific to the general and assume because some of the future is settled (what God purposes to bring to pass by His ability), that all of it is exhaustively settled and foreknown. It is self-evident that some of the future (free choices) must be unsettled, open, and unknowable (except as possibilities until they become actualities).
God knows "some" of the future? Then how can He be Omniscient? I believe God knows all of the future, including our choices, as evidenced in Jesus's telling Peter that he will deny Him three times. Peter was convinced that he would never deny his Messiah, but we all know the outcome of that story!

[Lighthouse]

Hi :Brandon:
While I wholeheartedly agree with you about salvation being seperate from works, I believe that "being saved" is more than just intellectual understanding of God's grace and mercy, through Jesus Christ. It is a free gift of God. In order that we might be saved, we must accept this gift conditional upon repentance. While it is not of works, it is something we must do in order to recieve this gift. No repentance? No grace.
1] What is repentance? Is it not turning to God?
2] When did I ever say repentance was not part of it? Hint: I didn't.


I do believe that God does in fact know the details of every future event. This is shown throughout the Bible where prophecies were given by God to the prophets. There is amazing details in the OT concerning the messianic prophecies. There is the book of Revelation....that has prophecies yet to be fulfilled.
If God did not know the details of future events, could He be an Omniscient God?
And here we go.

Prophecies were made, and God brought those events to pass, as long as the prophecies were from Him. He made them happen. And that is why He knew they would happen. But that was not always the case. Sometimes, God changed His mind. Take the prophecy of the destruction of Nineveh for example: God said they would be destroyed in 40 days. They repented, so they were not destroyed. Did God know they would repent?

What about when He told Abraham to sacrafice Isaac? After it was over, God said, "Now I know..." Or when He brought the animals to Adam to see what Adam would name them...

In all prophecies that are fulfilled, God fulfills them, by making them happen. This does not mean that He knew they would happen, then prophecied it. He prophecied it, and when the tiem came, He made it happen. Same goes for Revelation.

Let me paraphrase your last question: If God did not exist in Wonderland [a place that does not exist], could He be an omnipresent God?

Of course the answer is, "Yes." Why? Because omnipresence dictates God exists in all places that exist, not that He exists in places that do not exist. Therefore, omniscience dictates that God knows all things that are knowable. What I am going to eat for dinner is not knowable, because I don't even know.

This is infact ludicris. Jesus prayed in the garden prior to His death that those who God gave Him, He has kept and will not be lost.
Exactly. However, He was referring only to the disciples at that point. The exception, the son of perdition, was Judas.


The future is not known to us because it does not exist for us. We are of a finite time and place. Time that exists for us does not exist for God because He is from everlasting to everlasting. I believe that God does save us once and for all time. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. While we may not know the future, God does....
The future does not exist, period. Not for us, and not for God. If it exists for God, then it exists for us. We just wouldn't know it. And if the future does exist, free will is nothing but an illusion.

Time is the same thing for us that it is for God. Your view of time is flawed. Time is duration, not some seperate dimension, or creation of God. Things have always been happening, and events take time to happen.

[Lighthouse]

God knows "some" of the future? Then how can He be Omniscient? I believe God knows all of the future, including our choices, as evidenced in Jesus's telling Peter that he will deny Him three times. Peter was convinced that he would never deny his Messiah, but we all know the outcome of that story!
God caused three people to confront Peter about his involvement. God knew Peter's heart, and his fears. He knew Peter would deny, if he was asked. And that is how Jesus could make such a statement.

[Agape4Robin]

1] What is repentance? Is it not turning to God?
2] When did I ever say repentance was not part of it? Hint: I didn't.



And here we go.

Prophecies were made, and God brought those events to pass, as long as the prophecies were from Him. He made them happen. And that is why He knew they would happen. But that was not always the case. Sometimes, God changed His mind. Take the prophecy of the destruction of Nineveh for example: God said they would be destroyed in 40 days. They repented, so they were not destroyed. Did God know they would repent?

What about when He told Abraham to sacrafice Isaac? After it was over, God said, "Now I know..." Or when He brought the animals to Adam to see what Adam would name them...

In all prophecies that are fulfilled, God fulfills them, by making them happen. This does not mean that He knew they would happen, then prophecied it. He prophecied it, and when the tiem came, He made it happen. Same goes for Revelation.

Let me paraphrase your last question: If God did not exist in Wonderland [a place that does not exist], could He be an omnipresent God?

Of course the answer is, "Yes." Why? Because omnipresence dictates God exists in all places that exist, not that He exists in places that do not exist. Therefore, omniscience dictates that God knows all things that are knowable. What I am going to eat for dinner is not knowable, because I don't even know.


Exactly. However, He was referring only to the disciples at that point. The exception, the son of perdition, was Judas.



The future does not exist, period. Not for us, and not for God. If it exists for God, then it exists for us. We just wouldn't know it. And if the future does exist, free will is nothing but an illusion.

Time is the same thing for us that it is for God. Your view of time is flawed. Time is duration, not some seperate dimension, or creation of God. Things have always been happening, and events take time to happen.
I totally disagree with you Brandon, but this does not impact your or my salvation, so I will not split hairs with you over this subject.
Consider my last replies on the subject my own 2 cents.....

[Lighthouse]

You're going to run into it again, Robin. especially around here. It's one of the core beliefs of those who run this place. And is held by many others, including myself, godrulz, God_Is_Truth, and Clete [whose smilie you use in your signature].

[godrulz]

No. Pressed to my logical conclusion, anyone who has ever accepted Jesus are saved, and will remain so, always.

Salvation has nothing to do with physicality. It's all spiritual.

And if we're so much like God, how come we sin? We were made in His image, but we fall short of His glory.

We are in the moral (character= ability to love, be faithful, kind, etc., but not perfect) and personal image of God. We have a spiritual nature, will, intellect, emotions. We are not in the physical image of God (God is spirit). We are not like God in that He alone is uncreated, infinite, eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent.

We have the ability to sin. I did not say we were God or gods.

[godrulz]

God knows "some" of the future? Then how can He be Omniscient? I believe God knows all of the future, including our choices, as evidenced in Jesus's telling Peter that he will deny Him three times. Peter was convinced that he would never deny his Messiah, but we all know the outcome of that story!


The incident with Peter is proximal (near) knowledge. God knows the past and present perfectly. He knew Peter's heart and what He would do in that situation. This is different than knowing who will win a hockey game trillions of years ago (remote knowledge). The future is not there to know. Omniscience does not mean knowing the unknowable. It means knowing all that is knowable. Omnipotence does not mean that God does everything possible or self-contradictory, illogical things like creating a rock too heavy to lift. The problem is not with God's omniscient, but with what is a possible object of God's knowledge. He knows the future as a possibility, but it does not become certain/actual/knowable until the choices are made. If God knew the future exhaustively, man would be a robot and free will would be an illusion. You might not see this, but modal logic and godly philosophy will make this evident (let alone non-proof texting of Scripture).

[42ndgen]

Hi genuineoriginal:

Right. My question is: How you know that you have reached the point of being fully persuaded (salvation)? When you give diligence to make your calling and election sure, then you are working towards salvation. At which point do you know you made it? I believe you must keep working out your own salvation until the end (death or rapture). Philippians 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Even Paul believed in continuing to press on towards the prize of resurrection from the dead. Even after knowing that he had already attained this, he continued to press on. 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Scripture also states that we must hear God speak an annointed word before we can have faith- persuasion. Rom 10:17 (BBE) So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

But once we hear God speak in our spirits then we know that we have what He said he has given to us. And it is this knowing that has no doubt whatsoever with it. In fact it is a spiritual law that we are to walk - that is manifest in our lifestyle, out of what we have already received, not out of what we don't possess.

2Co 8:10-12 KJVA And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago. (11) Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have. (12) For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

If there is to be any performance of the word of God in our life it will come from the fact that we already possess what ever we are preforming. In Your example Paul had already been apprehended by God, but He was clearly showing that He needed to make it a living reality in His own life; that what He was apprehended for had to be appropriated to the place that it was actually functioning in His own life. He had to apprehend it. He did not want us to grow cold by assuming we had it but He wanted us to continually reach out and make sure that what We were apprehended for was actually working in our lives in a greater measure than it had already done. He wanted us to continually attain to a greater grace, a greater faith, a greater glory in Jesus Christ.

You will know when you are fully persuaded in an area when you absolutely have no doubt that what God has spoken to your spirit will come to pass. But then there will always be other areas in your life that you must hear God for.


Grace and Peace Patrick

[logos_x]

And...look at what Paul was persuaded about:

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[42ndgen]

Hi Logos:

I also covered that very same scripture in post 4 of this thread. :jump:

Grace and Peace Patrick

[Lighthouse]

The Therefore Principle

"Therefore, I am crucified with Christ..."
"Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation..."
"There is therefore now no condemnation for anyone who is in Christ Jesus..."

[godrulz]

The Therefore Principle

"Therefore, I am crucified with Christ..."
"Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation..."
"There is therefore now no condemnation for anyone who is in Christ Jesus..."



The key phase is to be 'In Christ". Not everyone is in Christ. So far, so good. I guess our only disagreement is that I think someone who was in Christ could renounce their faith and fall away to the point where they are no longer in Christ in God's eyes.

[Lighthouse]

The key phase is to be 'In Christ". Not everyone is in Christ. So far, so good. I guess our only disagreement is that I think someone who was in Christ could renounce their faith and fall away to the point where they are no longer in Christ in God's eyes.
Since I know what your objection to the last verse would be, I'll concentrate on the first two.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
-Galatians 2:20

The word "therefore" isn't in the KJV of that verse.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old thigs are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
-2 Corinthians 5:17

So, if the old is passed away, how can one return to it? If he is a new creature, he is no longer what he once was. How can he return to it? "All things are become new." Do you not get that?

Now, I know you want to use the verses from Hebrews 6 I would like you to explain the idea that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.

[godrulz]

Since I know what your objection to the last verse would be, I'll concentrate on the first two.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
-Galatians 2:20

The word "therefore" isn't in the KJV of that verse.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old thigs are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
-2 Corinthians 5:17

So, if the old is passed away, how can one return to it? If he is a new creature, he is no longer what he once was. How can he return to it? "All things are become new." Do you not get that?

Now, I know you want to use the verses from Hebrews 6 I would like you to explain the idea that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.





Paul certainly describes the state of those who believed and continued to abide in Christ. Other verses deal with apostasy and falling away. Both sets of verses are true and descriptive depending on what state the person we are talking about is in. If we are a believer, the promises of God apply and reflect our current reality. If a person is an unbeliever (it is academic if they always were in that state, or once were in a state of believing but now reject truth...the end result is the same...they are unbelievers by definition and fall in that category), the verses about unbelievers apply.

Your verses are favorites of Arminians who reject OSAS. As believers, we rejoice in these truths. These verses are not proof texts for OSAS and do not preclude falling away/apostasy. They do not negate other conditional verses. We cannot apply believer's verses to those who are in a state of rebellious unbelief. God is not mocked.

[Lighthouse]

You're never going to get it, are you?

And why don't you explain those parts of the verses in Hebrews that you ignore when you use them for your argument against eternal security? What are you afraid of?

[Jerry Shugart]

If a person is an unbeliever (it is academic if they always were in that state, or once were in a state of believing but now reject truth...the end result is the same...they are unbelievers by definition and fall in that category), the verses about unbelievers apply.
godrulz,

Those who believe in their hearts will always continue to believe:

"1The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever"(2Jn.1,2).

Sure there are some people who might have a "mental" knowledge and belief in the gospel,but their belief is not "rooted" in their hearts.The Lord describes those people here:

"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended"(Mt.13:20,21).

There were also some people that believed in His name just because of the miracles which He did,but the Lord would have nothing to do with them.Their faith was not rooted in their hearts:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men"(Jn.2:23,24).

But those who truly believe in their hearts are sealed by the Holy Spirit after they believe,and they will remain saeled until the redemption of their immortal bodies (Eph.1:13,14, Eph.4:30 Ro.8:23).

So there can be no doubt that those who believe in their hearts enjoy eternal security.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

[godrulz]

You're never going to get it, are you?

And why don't you explain those parts of the verses in Hebrews that you ignore when you use them for your argument against eternal security? What are you afraid of?


I have explained them. You must have missed it. Read the whole book and the context. Mid-Acts is one way to explain them away, but this is such a minor view it does not appear on most people's radar as credible. Get any non-Reformed/Calvinistic theology book or commentary and they will walk you through it again.

[godrulz]

godrulz,

Those who believe in their hearts will always continue to believe:

"1The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever"(2Jn.1,2).

Sure there are some people who might have a "mental" knowledge and belief in the gospel,but their belief is not "rooted" in their hearts.The Lord describes those people here:

"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended"(Mt.13:20,21).

There were also some people that believed in His name just because of the miracles which He did,but the Lord would have nothing to do with them.Their faith was not rooted in their hearts:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men"(Jn.2:23,24).

But those who truly believe in their hearts are sealed by the Holy Spirit after they believe,and they will remain saeled until the redemption of their immortal bodies (Eph.1:13,14, Eph.4:30 Ro.8:23).

So there can be no doubt that those who believe in their hearts enjoy eternal security.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

This is tantamount to denying free will. Unbelievers are more free than believers after conversion. It also reduced a moral love relationship with God to a metaphysical, irreversible, coerced change in our constitution. One cannot divorce will/free moral agency and intellect (image of God..it is self-evident we can change our minds and will) and relationship from the concepts of salvation (or everyone should be saved=universalism).

[Jerry Shugart]

This is tantamount to denying free will.
godrulz,

No,it is just human nature.When a person understands that he is a sinner on his way to destruction and understands that he is saved because the Lord Jesus Christ died on the Cross for his sins,then that is a fact that will remain with that person forever.

If that person ceases to believe then it is evident that he never believed in his heart and he was never saved to begin with.

For anyone to say that someone who truly believes the gospel can change their mind and through their will stop believing that which came in the power of the Holy Spirit truly has no understanding of human nature.It is ridiculus to think that someone will say to himself,"Let me see.I know that Christ died for my sins and because of that I am saved.But since I do not like something that has happened in my life I am going to will myself to stop believing the facts that I now know even if this will lead to eternal destruction."

And then we see him sitting down trying to "will" himself into believing something which he believes is not true.

Do you not know that "believing" something is not based on one's "willing" himself to believe something,but instead it is based on "evidence"?And the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit and it provides the "evidence" of things not seen:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).
It also reduced a moral love relationship with God to a metaphysical, irreversible, coerced change in our constitution.
Please consider the following:

"know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's"(1Cor.6:19,20).

The Lord has paid a terrible price to redeem those who believe and once redeemed they belong to Him,and He is not going to lose them.Therefore,once a sinner believes he is sealed with the Holy Spirit and will remain sealed until the day when he receives his immortal body.

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his"(2Tim.2:19).

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

[godrulz]

godrulz,

No,it is just human nature.When a person understands that he is a sinner on his way to destruction and understands that he is saved because the Lord Jesus Christ died on the Cross for his sins,then that is a fact that will remain with that person forever.

If that person ceases to believe then it is evident that he never believed in his heart and he was never saved to begin with.

For anyone to say that someone who truly believes the gospel can change their mind and through their will stop believing that which came in the power of the Holy Spirit truly has no understanding of human nature.It is ridiculus to think that someone will say to himself,"Let me see.I know that Christ died for my sins and because of that I am saved.But since I do not like something that has happened in my life I am going to will myself to stop believing the facts that I now know even if this will lead to eternal destruction."

And then we see him sitting down trying to "will" himself into believing something which he believes is not true.

Do you not know that "believing" something is not based on one's "willing" himself to believe something,but instead it is based on "evidence"?And the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit and it provides the "evidence" of things not seen:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).

Please consider the following:

"know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's"(1Cor.6:19,20).

The Lord has paid a terrible price to redeem those who believe and once redeemed they belong to Him,and He is not going to lose them.Therefore,once a sinner believes he is sealed with the Holy Spirit and will remain sealed until the day when he receives his immortal body.

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his"(2Tim.2:19).

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

It is circular reasoning/begging the question to assume that because someone no longer believes that they never believed.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is an example of those who were saved and knew the truth of Christianity, but had reverted back to the shadow/type of Judaism, forfeiting their former status as believers. Likewise, any evangelical Christian who is seduced by Mormonism or JWs, and denies the Deity of Christ and salvation by grace through faith alone, now shares the consequences of believing a lie and trusting a man-made organization for salvation. This would have to include a full renunciation of biblical truth and Christ, not just confusion in some areas of belief. God knows the heart and circumstances.

[Jerry Shugart]

It is circular reasoning/begging the question to assume that because someone no longer believes that they never believed.
godrulz,

The Scriptures state in no uncertain terms that the truth will be with us forever.So if someone says that they believed at one time but no longer believe then it is obvious that they never believed in their heart to begin with.
Hebrews 6:4-6 is an example of those who were saved and knew the truth of Christianity, but had reverted back to the shadow/type of Judaism, forfeiting their former status as believers.
There is nothing that says that they ever stopped believing.Peter denied Christ three times but he never stopped believing.If you could understand the hold the outward symbols and ceremonies of Judaism must have had upon the Hebrew Christians then you would realize how natural it was that they should cling to them.

Likewise, any evangelical Christian who is seduced by Mormonism or JWs, and denies the Deity of Christ and salvation by grace through faith alone, now shares the consequences of believing a lie and trusting a man-made organization for salvation. This would have to include a full renunciation of biblical truth and Christ, not just confusion in some areas of belief. God knows the heart and circumstances.
Once a sinner is "born of God" then that person becomes a child of God.And the Lord may chasten His children,but He will never send one of His children to eternal punishment.

And you failed to address the verses that speak of the "seal" of the Holy Spirit and the fact that once a sinner believes then he is not his own but belongs to the Lord.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

[justchristian]

I agree with the idea that if someone says they once believed but now do not, I would question that initial belief. At least in my experience since I made the step to belief the Holy Spirit has presented the evidence of relationship that cannot be denied unless I lie to myself. So if a person says they no longer believe then they either never believed or are lying to the selves.

[godrulz]

godrulz,

The Scriptures state in no uncertain terms that the truth will be with us forever.So if someone says that they believed at one time but no longer believe then it is obvious that they never believed in their heart to begin with.

There is nothing that says that they ever stopped believing.Peter denied Christ three times but he never stopped believing.If you could understand the hold the outward symbols and ceremonies of Judaism must have had upon the Hebrew Christians then you would realize how natural it was that they should cling to them.


Once a sinner is "born of God" then that person becomes a child of God.And the Lord may chasten His children,but He will never send one of His children to eternal punishment.

And you failed to address the verses that speak of the "seal" of the Holy Spirit and the fact that once a sinner believes then he is not his own but belongs to the Lord.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

The Commercial Transaction Theory or literal payment theory of the atonement leads past eternal security to universalism. You are taking a metaphor for salvation and making it into a wooden literalism. We are the Lords when we come in repentant faith, but the faith must continue. There are many verses and principles that show our security is conditional on being in Christ and remaining in Him. I have addressed the seal issue before. The pledge of the Spirit is genuine, but it does not preclude the possibility of resisting the person and work of the Spirit before or after conversion. One would have to do a word and historical study on the NT concept of seal rather than reading our 21st century North American ideas into it. Robert Shank, Southern Baptist, "Life in the Son", has a chapter dealing with what the seal is and is not. I am satisfied that the concept does not support OSAS.

Peter waffled/wavered in His faith under pressure and temptation. He repented and was restored in short order. He is not an example of someone who defiantly, against great light, renounces Christ and dies in a state of unbelief and rebellion. Judas would be an example for the other type of people who were once in Christ's inner circle and entrusted with the Gospel, but later renounced Him to the point of demon possession. He died as a son of perdition, not a disciple of Jesus Christ.

There is a difference between the discipline of a BELIEVER who lapses for a time, and the destruction of an UNBELIEVER who is apostate, fallen away, or never in Christ.

[Jerry Shugart]

The Commercial Transaction Theory or literal payment theory of the atonement leads past eternal security to universalism.
I never put forth any such theory.Instead I quoted from the Scriptures.
You are taking a metaphor for salvation and making it into a wooden literalism. We are the Lords when we come in repentant faith, but the faith must continue.
I have already quoted the Apostle John saying that the truth will be with us forever,but that verse seems to mean nothing to you.
There are many verses and principles that show our security is conditional on being in Christ and remaining in Him.
There are many verses that some men say teach this,but under closer examination these verses teach no such thing.
I have addressed the seal issue before. The pledge of the Spirit is genuine, but it does not preclude the possibility of resisting the person and work of the Spirit before or after conversion.
Here is the meaning of the "seal":

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his"(2Tim.2:19).

And this is what the Lord Jesus said about those whom He knows are His:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"(Jn.10:27,28).

The Lord says that "they shall never perish" but you say that they can.
Peter waffled/wavered in His faith under pressure and temptation. He repented and was restored in short order. He is not an example of someone who defiantly, against great light, renounces Christ and dies in a state of unbelief and rebellion. Judas would be an example for the other type of people who were once in Christ's inner circle and entrusted with the Gospel, but later renounced Him to the point of demon possession. He died as a son of perdition, not a disciple of Jesus Christ.
Are you saying that the Hebrew Christians were not under pressure from other non-believing Jews to continue in Judaism?Living in Mexico I have seen people believe the true gospel and disbelieve the teachings of the church at Rome.But due to pressure from the parents who do follow Rome the believers will continue participating in the religion invented by Rome.However,that does not mean that they stopped believing the true gospel.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

[godrulz]

The greeting in 2 John is not a common OSAS proof text. He is addressing a believer, so the statement stands true. The faith/truth was once for all entrusted to the saints. This greeting is not a didactic portion on the perseverance of the saints. The lady in Christ has the truth, which will remain forever with believers. Other passages deal with apostates and those who fall away from the truth. This greeting is not applied to these former believers since they have rejected the truth outright. God does not coerce salvation nor perseverance. Irresistible grace and unconditional perseverance are contrary to the gift of free moral agency and lead to unconditional election and unjust reprobation (TULIP). These concepts are contrary to the revealed character and ways of God and limit His great, impartial love.

[Jerry Shugart]

Other passages deal with apostates and those who fall away from the truth.
So you are saying that at one time they were believers but then they stopped believing.
The lady in Christ has the truth, which will remain forever with believers.
Yes,the truth remains forever with believers.That means that one who starts to believe will continue to believe.

So when you say that some believed and then stopped believing you are contradicting yourself.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

[godrulz]

So you are saying that at one time they were believers but then they stopped believing.

Yes,the truth remains forever with believers.That means that one who starts to believe will continue to believe.

So when you say that some believed and then stopped believing you are contradicting yourself.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

There are 4 types of people:

i) unbelievers who have never believed/trusted in Christ.

ii) believers who received Christ and continued to love and trust Him to the end (some are still alive; others have died in Christ).

iii) unbelievers who became believers through faith in Christ; at some future point in their lives, they may have lapsed or wandered from the faith (change of ultimate intention and subordinate choices); before they died, they returned to full relationship with Christ. They may or may not have been believers during the lapse (God knows the heart and degree of openness to or rejection of the truth).

iv) unbelievers who became believers through faith in Christ; at some future point in their lives, they definitively and defiantly, against great light, changed their ultimate intention from loving God supremely and others equal to themselves, back to living supremely for Self. This renunciation and rejection of Christ puts them in the same state as they were before conversion or in the same state as the rest of the unbelievers in the world. It is disingenuous to say they are believers even though they are unbelievers. These concepts are diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive. This class persists in unbelief to death without returning to faith in Christ (apostasy; falling away).

The root problem is a wrong view of the nature of sin and salvation. Hint: these things are in the realm of morals (technical term for choice issues); they are not in the realm of metaphysics (substance, stuff, things). i.e. sin is not a substance passed on from Adam...it is a wrong moral choice; salvation is a love relationship, not an irreversible metaphysical change in our constitution.

[Lighthouse]

godrulz-
If the verses in Hebrews say that people can fall away from salvation, then they also say that these people can not come back. And until you admit that you will never be able to see the error of your ways.

[Jerry Shugart]

...salvation is a love relationship, not an irreversible metaphysical change in our constitution.
godrulz,

Do you not think that when a person is "born of God" ("born again,born of the Spirit) that there is not a irreversable metaphysical change in one's constitution?

After all,how is it possible for a person to become "unborn"?
The root problem is a wrong view of the nature of sin and salvation. Hint: these things are in the realm of morals (technical term for choice issues); they are not in the realm of metaphysics (substance, stuff, things). i.e. sin is not a substance passed on from Adam.
I never said that sin is passed from Adam to man.I do not believe that.And sin