A Reply to Dave Miller

[Nineveh]

From this (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19879&page=79&pp=15) page.

She [Nineveh] believes that she has no need to ask God
for forgiveness, not ever.

For anyone who has ever heard my witness, they know this to be a lie. Dave, you should be ashamed.

You've never heard the "walk a mile in my shoes?" proverb? ITs completely foreign to you?

I know of a song by Bob Dylan that says something like, "I wish you could walk a mile in my shoes, so you would know what a drag it is to see you." But nothing in Scripture that says we need to sin before we know sin is wrong. Rather, the Bible says things like, "do not do as they do" and "thou shalt not".

[Zakath]

For anyone who has ever heard my witness, they know this to be a lie. Dave, you should be ashamed.Perhaps Dave is unaware of your "witness". ;)

[Nineveh]

Perhaps Dave is unaware of your "witness". ;)

No, because I told him my witness :)

[beanieboy]

Perhaps you can clear up the misunderstanding.

Do you still sin, and ask for God's mercy for disobeying?
Do you still need forgiveness from God?

[Nineveh]

Hey, bean, you have the thread for The Edge to reply to :)

[beanieboy]

And I asked you a direct question.

[Nineveh]

beanie,
I'm not going to have two unfinished convos with you on two different threads addressing two different people's replies to me. One's enough, don't you think?

[beanieboy]

beanie,
I'm not going to have two unfinished convos with you on two different threads addressing two different people's replies to me. One's enough, don't you think?

Again, you avoided the question.
Do you, or do you not, still and continuously, need the forgiveness of God?
If this is a misunderstanding, clear it up.

[Zakath]

No, because I told him my witness :)
That wasn't apparent in the discussion I just read. Thank you for clarifying.

[Nineveh]

beanie,
Dealing with your whine session on one thread is enough. But thanks anyway. I'd rather hear from dave on this thread, if you don't mind.

[beanieboy]

beanie,
Dealing with your whine session on one thread is enough. But thanks anyway. I'd rather hear from dave on this thread, if you don't mind.

:(

And again.

[Nineveh]

:(

And again.

You can't pay attention to the convo you started over there. There is no point chasing your rabbits over here, too. Quit whining and reply to the other thread, where you already have a convo you are trying to get out of now. K?

[beanieboy]

Is it really that hard for you to admit that you, Nineveh, still need forgiveness?

[Nineveh]

Is it hard for you to understand I don't want you to derail this thread any further than you have? It's not like your "sincere" questions haven't been answered before.

So anyway, back to Dave...

[beanieboy]

Ok, back to Dave.
:)

[Dave Miller]

Back to Dave,,,,

I made the statement I did because Nin refuses to answer who Christ presented the
Lord's prayer for. She's clearly stated in the past that those who accept Christ are
in no need of asking forgiveness any more. The question remains, if Christians never
need ask forgiveness, then why would Christ give this prayer, which includes the
phrase "forgive our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us?" Who was this
prayer given to?

Dave

[Dave Miller]

From this (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19879&page=79&pp=15) page.



For anyone who has ever heard my witness, they know this to be a lie. Dave, you should be ashamed.



I know of a song by Bob Dylan that says something like, "I wish you could walk a mile in my shoes, so you would know what a drag it is to see you." But nothing in Scripture that says we need to sin before we know sin is wrong. Rather, the Bible says things like, "do not do as they do" and "thou shalt not".

Walk a mile in my shoes is derived from the golden rule, which Christ gave.

[Nineveh]

Back to Dave,,,,

I made the statement I did because Nin refuses to answer who Christ presented the
Lord's prayer for. She's clearly stated in the past that those who accept Christ are
in no need of asking forgiveness any more. The question remains, if Christians never
need ask forgiveness, then why would Christ give this prayer, which includes the
phrase "forgive our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us?" Who was this
prayer given to?

She [Nineveh] believes that she has no need to ask God
for forgiveness, not ever"?


Have I ever once said no one ever needs to repent ever?

[Nineveh]

Walk a mile in my shoes is derived from the golden rule, which Christ gave.

First, let's get a clear idea of Christ's words. Mind giving a quote?

[Dave Miller]

Have I ever once said no one ever needs to repent ever?


Not anyone ever, specifically you or anyone having repented have no
further need to ever ask forgiveness, which once again is different than
repentence.

Dave

[Dave Miller]

Ok, back to Dave.
:)


BTW Beannie, exact same line of questioning I presented to Nin several
months ago, exact same elusive response. Not off subject, right on the
subject, and Nin knows it.

Dave

[Dave Miller]

First, let's get a clear idea of Christ's words. Mind giving a quote?

I just did a google search on "golden Rule and walking in another's shoes,"
and at least the first 4 pages of hits are relevant articles that connect the
two concepts. Its not hard for the rest of the world to understand what
empathy means, why is it so hard for fundies? DH gave me a red mark saying
I was "demented" for making this common sense connection.

You're all demented. Not your sibling's keepers, that's for sure, the whole
core premise of scripture, old and new testament escapes you. It boggles
the mind. Your god says "don't care about anyone, 'cuz I sure don't. "

The parable of the good Samaritan? Doesn't exist. Love one another? Well,
love others who see things the same as I do, otherwise, hate, ridicule, deride,
demean, arrest and murder.

:bang:

[Nineveh]

C'mon dave, were you trying to judge me rightly? Or were you judging me for your own personal pleasure?

I made the statement I did because Nin refuses to answer who Christ presented the Lord's prayer for.

Rather you tried to say I believe I should never repent of anything ever. My witness, which you at first tried to discredit, stated plainly the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins and I repented and accepted Christ as my Savior. I believe it's your witness of tickled ears that has nothing to do with repentance.

Besides, the Lord's Prayer wasn't being discussed on the thread you were comforting sodmites on.

She's clearly stated in the past that those who accept Christ are
in no need of asking forgiveness any more.

Well isn't that a huge change from "never asking forgiveness for anything ever"? Rather, you have a warped understanding of who needs to repent and why.

God needs forgiving. God commits sins like tsunamis. You need to repent continually for not exibiting the natural out pouring of the Fruits of the Spirit. Yet sodomites can be "made holy" by your ritual. What God calls sin, you won't. What God doesn't call sin, you do.

Christians are forgiven. If we stumble, we ask God's guidence and rest on Him to strengthen us in our faith so we are more resistant to those temptations. Our faith in Christ gets stronger the more we use it. That's a far cry from finding ways to make God "ok" with unrepentant sodomites and idolitors.

The question remains, if Christians never need ask forgiveness, then why would Christ give this prayer, which includes the phrase "forgive our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us?" Who was this prayer given to?

Dave, I've been disinclined to get into the Lord's prayer with you because your exegesis about Judgement, Repentance, Law, Grace, Fruits of the Spirit, Dispensationalism, Human Spirits, The Lake of Fire, Sin, and other things has been so warped I didn't see where your understanding of Christ's prayer would be any better.


I'm still waiting for you to give that golden rule of Christ....

[Nineveh]

I just did a google search on "golden Rule and walking in another's shoes," and at least the first 4 pages of hits are relevant articles that connect the
two concepts. Its not hard for the rest of the world to understand what
empathy means, why is it so hard for fundies? DH gave me a red mark saying
I was "demented" for making this common sense connection.

You're all demented. Not your sibling's keepers, that's for sure, the whole
core premise of scripture, old and new testament escapes you. It boggles
the mind. Your god says "don't care about anyone, 'cuz I sure don't. "

What does this have to do with that "Golden Rule of Christ"?

The parable of the good Samaritan? Doesn't exist. Love one another? Well,
love others who see things the same as I do, otherwise, hate, ridicule, deride,
demean, arrest and murder.

And like the resident sodomite, you keep loping off that "Love God with your whole being" part, before you get into the love your neighbor part. You don't get to define Love any more than you get to define sin, dave.

[Dave Miller]

C'mon dave, were you trying to judge me rightly? Or were you judging me for your own personal pleasure?



Rather you tried to say I believe I should never repent of anything ever. My witness, which you at first tried to discredit, stated plainly the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins and I repented and accepted Christ as my Savior. I believe it's your witness of tickled ears that has nothing to do with repentance.

Besides, the Lord's Prayer wasn't being discussed on the thread you were comforting sodmites on.



Well isn't that a huge change from "never asking forgiveness for anything ever"? Rather, you have a warped understanding of who needs to repent and why.

God needs forgiving. God commits sins like tsunamis. You need to repent continually for not exibiting the natural out pouring of the Fruits of the Spirit. Yet sodomites can be "made holy" by your ritual. What God calls sin, you won't. What God doesn't call sin, you do.

Christians are forgiven. If we stumble, we ask God's guidence and rest on Him to strengthen us in our faith so we are more resistant to those temptations. Our faith in Christ gets stronger the more we use it. That's a far cry from finding ways to make God "ok" with unrepentant sodomites and idolitors.



Dave, I've been disinclined to get into the Lord's prayer with you because your exegesis about Judgement, Repentance, Law, Grace, Fruits of the Spirit, Dispensationalism, Human Spirits, The Lake of Fire, Sin, and other things has been so warped I didn't see where your understanding of Christ's prayer would be any better.


I'm still waiting for you to give that golden rule of Christ....


Your hopeless.... But then again, no one is beyond hope. I shall continue to
pray for you, as you are incapable of recognizing your own sin and asking
forgiveness yourself.

Christ made the Lord's Prayer for everyone, you and I, and even in our
states of repentence, we are called to ask forgiveness daily, even as we
ask for our bread daily. The concept of Humility before God is past you too,
now that you're perfect, I know...

[Dave Miller]

What does this have to do with that "Golden Rule of Christ"?



And like the resident sodomite, you keep loping off that "Love God with your whole being" part, before you ge tinto the love your neighbor part. You don't get to define Love any more than you get to define sin, dave.

How do we express our love for God? As we do unto the least of His children, we
do unto Him. That's how we love God, through loving Others.

[Nineveh]

Your hopeless....

You made a false statement about what I believe dave, don't be a coward.

But then again, no one is beyond hope. I shall continue to
pray for you, as you are incapable of recognizing your own sin and asking
forgiveness yourself.

Instead of judging me wrongly, then persisting in your error, why not fess up? Come clean dave.

Christ made the Lord's Prayer for everyone, you and I, and even in our
states of repentence, we are called to ask forgiveness daily, even as we
ask for our bread daily. The concept of Humility before God is past you too,
now that you're perfect, I know...

Dave, once again you exegesis is faulty. Why not go back to step one and understand sin before you start forgiving everyone, including God, for your definitions of it?

[Nineveh]

How do we express our love for God?

Humbling ourselves to His understandings is a good place to start.

As we do unto the least of His children, we
do unto Him. That's how we love God, through loving Others.

Much like mocking dave, if you do it for yourself, it's self serving for self righteousness.

First we must come to know the God that defines Love before we can love our neighbors, or else we start "loving" our neighbors with things like "rituals" to cleanse sodomy.

[Dave Miller]

Allright, enlighten me. What are the "proper" interpretations of "sin" and "love,"
from your perspective?

BTW, I did not make a false statement. I did clarify my statement, however. You've
not disagreed nore refuted what I've said, so it stands; since "repenting" you have
never needed nor will you ever need to ask God's forgiveness for anything. And
Christ's words are once again for naught, fallen on deaf ears.

[Nineveh]

Allright, enlighten me. What are the "proper" interpretations of "sin" and "love," from your perspective?

From my perspecitve, God is right.

Comforting sin is not showing love to our neighbors. Calling people out of sin is showing Love to our neighbors. How do we define sin? God's Law.

BTW, I did not make a false statement. I did clarify my statement, however. You've not disagreed nore refuted what I've said,

I most certainly have: "you tried to say I believe I should never repent of anything ever. My witness, which you at first tried to discredit, stated plainly the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins and I repented and accepted Christ as my Savior. I believe it's your witness of tickled ears that has nothing to do with repentance."

so it stands; since "repenting" you have
never needed nor will you ever need to ask God's forgiveness for anything. And
Christ's words are once again for naught, fallen on deaf ears.

Yes, it stands that you are persisting in bearing a false witness.

[beanieboy]

BTW Beannie, exact same line of questioning I presented to Nin several
months ago, exact same elusive response. Not off subject, right on the
subject, and Nin knows it.

Dave


Thanks, Dave.

And I have to agree with you.
Rarely have I seen such a hard heart.
But we are merely the sowers of the seed, not the sun nor the rain.

I will pray for Nin myself.

[Dave Miller]

From my perspecitve, God is right.


Yes, it stands that you are persisting in bearing a false witness.

False witness is your speciality, twister of words. I never said the word
"repent."

Dave

[Nineveh]

I never said the word "repent."


Speaking of twisting words, what does "ask forgiveness" mean?

[Zakath]

Speaking of twisting words, what does "ask forgiveness" mean?
To enquire if someone will forgive you?

[Dave Miller]

Speaking of twisting words, what does "ask forgiveness" mean?

Asking forgiveness is one small piece of the whole process of repentence.

Repentence is the process of turning around, becoming completely re-oriented,
away from sin and the world, towards God and the Kingdom.

Dave

[Nineveh]

Asking forgiveness is one small piece of the whole process of repentence.

True, you actually have to be humble and ask forgiveness to be at the place to repent, that is, walk in the ways of God rather than your own. What confuses me abou your theology dave, is what you feel needs to be forgiven, and what doesn't. It seems your standard doesn't agree with God's.

Repentence is the process of turning around, becoming completely re-oriented,
away from sin and the world, towards God and the Kingdom.

Once forgiven, it becomes an issue of walking by faith because the Holy Spirit dwells in you.

After one is humbled and accepts God's standard for their lives, how can the same place themselves in a position of accusing God Himslef of commiting sin, or in a place above God to forgive Him?

[Dave Miller]

True, you actually have to be humble and ask forgiveness to be at the place to repent, that is, walk in the ways of God rather than your own. What confuses me abou your theology dave, is what you feel needs to be forgiven, and what doesn't. It seems your standard doesn't agree with God's.


God's Standard is too high for anyone. Neither of us can even think to articulate
God's standard. Hence the need for Christ.

We are powerless to "walk in teh ways of God."

Once forgiven, it becomes an issue of walking by faith because the Holy Spirit dwells in you.


Once forgiven, the process begins of accepting in Gratitude and Humility the
profound gift of Grace which God gives freely, through Christ. Its in the
process of acceptence and humility that our orientation truly begins to
turn, and that's God's doing, not our own.


After one is humbled and accepts God's standard for their lives, how can the same place themselves in a position of accusing God Himslef of commiting sin, or in a place above God to forgive Him?

The subject is about our need to continue to ask forgiveness as part of the
repentence process, which is a lifetime task. If you want to talk about
forgiving God, that's another thread, but anyone who's lost a loved one
understands exactly what that means. Your inability to grasp the concept of
empathy shows itself again.

Dave

[Nineveh]

God's Standard is too high for anyone. Neither of us can even think to articulate God's standard. Hence the need for Christ.

We are powerless to "walk in teh ways of God."

How can you judge His standard if you really can't know it? Rather, I think God makes His standard absolutely clear so we can plainly see our need for Christ. Such is a proper use of the Law.

Once forgiven, the process begins of accepting in Gratitude and Humility the
profound gift of Grace which God gives freely, through Christ. Its in the
process of acceptence and humility that our orientation truly begins to
turn, and that's God's doing, not our own.

Accepting Christ wasn't a process for me, is it for you?

It's not God's doing to cleans an unrepentant sodomite with a ritual.

The subject is about our need to continue to ask forgiveness as part of the
repentence process, which is a lifetime task.

I'm not catholic dave. I didn't think you were either. Being humble when we fall or are in error is one thing, but continually begging God's forgiveness for things He doesn't even call sin is not only redundant, but cheapens repentance/forgiveness. One day I hope you can rest in knowing you have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and the Fruits of the Spirit are a natural outpouring of Christ in you.

If you want to talk about forgiving God, that's another thread, but anyone who's lost a loved one understands exactly what that means.

This goes to the heart of all your judgements dave. Placing onself in a position over God to forgive Him is not a display of humilty. Nor is accusing God of sin. If I am expected to take your council, I need to know it is sound.

Your inability to grasp the concept of empathy shows itself again.

Once again you bear a false witness against me.

[Balder]

I'm curious, is it perhaps more appropriate for a Christian, when reflecting on their failings and sins in daily life, to say, "Thank you for your forgiveness this day," than actually asking for it again? I understand the desire to move to a place of "rest" or assurance in the grace of God, where one knows one is loved in such a way that one is not concerned with repairing a breached relationship or asking to be "readmitted" into the circle of God's love, but rather one is motivated to express continual gratefulness for that love. On the other hand, when one does not directly approach God and ask for forgiveness, one also runs the risk of becoming complacent and self-righteous, taking forgiveness for granted and then growing hard towards others who have not made the same "prescribed step" as you. Settling in to an ideological position of "already done" can lead not to a condition of open and responsive "grace-fulness" (grace+gratefulness) but to a kind of intractible self-righteousness.

I can see the value in both approaches, and I think both may help the believer who holds them just as much as they may disorient or "distort" them -- i.e., leading them either to continual feelings of alienation and vulnerability to rejection, or else to a hard smugness that has lost the grace of that which once delivered his or her heart into the cracked open place where something Other shines through.

Peace,
Balder

[Delmar]

I'm curious, is it perhaps more appropriate for a Christian, when reflecting on their failings and sins in daily life, to say, "Thank you for your forgiveness this day," than actually asking for it again? .

You are on to something

[Dave Miller]

I'm curious, is it perhaps more appropriate for a Christian, when reflecting on their failings and sins in daily life, to say, "Thank you for your forgiveness this day," than actually asking for it again? I understand the desire to move to a place of "rest" or assurance in the grace of God, where one knows one is loved in such a way that one is not concerned with repairing a breached relationship or asking to be "readmitted" into the circle of God's love, but rather one is motivated to express continual gratefulness for that love. On the other hand, when one does not directly approach God and ask for forgiveness, one also runs the risk of becoming complacent and self-righteous, taking forgiveness for granted and then growing hard towards others who have not made the same "prescribed step" as you. Settling in to an ideological position of "already done" can lead not to a condition of open and responsive "grace-fulness" (grace+gratefulness) but to a kind of intractible self-righteousness.

I can see the value in both approaches, and I think both may help the believer who holds them just as much as they may disorient or "distort" them -- i.e., leading them either to continual feelings of alienation and vulnerability to rejection, or else to a hard smugness that has lost the grace of that which once delivered his or her heart into the cracked open place where something Other shines through.

Peace,
Balder

Much appreciated input Balder, and welcome as always.

My response would be that humility demands that we acknowledge ways in
which we have hurt others, hurt ourselves, made mistakes, and mis-stepped
on a daily basis. Christ says in the prayer, very clearly "forgive our sins, as we
forgive those who sin against us." So not only asking forgiveness, but
understanding how we have been impacted by others and offering forgiveness
on their behalf is also important, again, on a daily basis.

This doesn't start or end with alienation and vulnerability, far from it. I'm secure
in my relationship with God, though I still fear His righteous methods for
answering my requests, that I be made aware of my transgressions that I may
grow and heal. Rather than alienation and vulnerability, I enjoy the reward
of walking with God and growing closer to His Will and purpose in my life,
on a daily basis. Because I ask for forgiveness daily, I am drawn closer to God
daily. This is my witness.

Dave

[Dave Miller]

How can you judge His standard if you really can't know it?


How are you in a position to judge God's standard?


Rather, I think God makes His standard absolutely clear so we can plainly see our need for Christ. Such is a proper use of the Law.


Not absolutely clear. We glimpse only the base of the mountain, which makes
absolutely clear our inability to comply in and of our own free will.


Accepting Christ wasn't a process for me, is it for you?


Not accepting Christ, ever turning towards God, ever growing closer to God.
Its a lifetime process.


It's not God's doing to cleans an unrepentant sodomite with a ritual.


Nope, its not. ITs through God's Grace in Christ that we all are cleansed.


I'm not catholic dave. I didn't think you were either. Being humble when we fall or are in error is one thing, but continually begging God's forgiveness for things He doesn't even call sin is not only redundant, but cheapens repentance/forgiveness. One day I hope you can rest in knowing you have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and the Fruits of the Spirit are a natural outpouring of Christ in you.


You've given up gossip altogether? Greed? Lust? Malice? Anger? Even
ignorance? You never hurt anyone, intentionally or unitentionally? You
don't lack humility in any way? You are sinless? By whose definition???
not sins?


This goes to the heart of all your judgements dave. Placing onself in a position over God to forgive Him is not a display of humilty. Nor is accusing God of sin. If I am expected to take your council, I need to know it is sound.


OF course not. Placeing ones self in a position where one can again accept
the Grace of God, and respond to it, that's waht I was talking about. Again,
anyone whose lost a loved one understands this process.

And the miracle is, that God takes the blame greatfully. Hence the Cross...

[QUOTE
Once again you bear a false witness against me.[/QUOTE]

No need, you speak for yourself quite eloquently.

[Nineveh]

How are you in a position to judge God's standard?

I'm not, the only thing I can do is agree with it. So, how are you able to make the claim, "God's Standard is too high for anyone. Neither of us can even think to articulate God's standard."?

Not absolutely clear. We glimpse only the base of the mountain, which makes
absolutely clear our inability to comply in and of our own free will.

How do you know you have the inability to comply with what you aren't sure He is saying?

Not accepting Christ, ever turning towards God, ever growing closer to God.
Its a lifetime process.

If you aren't sure about God's standard, how is it you know you are turning more to His ways?

Nope, its not. ITs through God's Grace in Christ that we all are cleansed.

Do you feel a "homosexual commitment ceremony" is = to accepting Christ?

You've given up gossip altogether?

I prefer people to know what I say to them. If someone is in error it does no good to speak behind their backs about it or tells others of their transgessions.

Greed? Lust? Malice? Anger?

None of those in an ungodly way. God gets angry, so I tend to get angry about what God does.

This looks like a fishing expedition, dave. You accused me wrongly, which is why I started this thread, now we have to go through a list of things so you can find fault with me?

Even ignorance?

Ignorance, like a tsunami, isn't a sin. Although wanting to stay ignorant is a pretty bad thing to do.

You never hurt anyone, intentionally or unitentionally?

That's a loaded question if I have ever seen one.

But I'll answer it anyway.

I never intend to harm anyone. But the way "hurt" is misused, you could easily find me guilty of "hurting feelings". Is it my intention to make someone feel badly? Sometimes. Like once a guy mocked a picture of an aborted baby. I certainly inteneded to make him feel badly for it. But unless I am in error, "hurt feelings" are not something I am going to apologize/repent/ask forgivenss for.

You don't lack humility in any way?

Certainly I lack humility in some cases. Such as being judged wrongly. Or when I am told I am to be humble to a mere man when he is in error. But towards God? Never.

You are sinless?

Yes. I have been washed in the Blood of the Lamb and will be judged by His righteousness.

By whose definition???

God's.

not sins?

I'm not sure I understand this part.


OF course not. Placeing ones self in a position where one can again accept
the Grace of God, and respond to it, that's waht I was talking about. Again,
anyone whose lost a loved one understands this process.

I will ask, did it work? Did one pagan turn to Christ after you started your "forgiving God" thread? Not that I have seen. You merely put those who love themselves the most in a position to judge God as needing to be forgiven.

You keep wanting to drop the part about God commiting sin. How is accusing God of sin showing humilty?

And the miracle is, that God takes the blame greatfully. Hence the Cross...

:vomit:

Now the Righteous and Holy Creator God is greatful to accept any sin you ascribe to Him? Gee, the least you could do is try to figure out what His stand is and use that one instead of your own.

Once again, your total lack of humilty astounds me.

No need, you speak for yourself quite eloquently.

You have wrongly judged me, dave. Instead of displaying this humiltiy you are so big on talking about, you persist in your error and try to add more. : shakes head :

[Balder]

It's interesting to consider why Jesus worded the Lord's Prayer the way he did -- why he asked us to pray to God to forgive us, just as we forgive those who trespass against us. One might expect him to say, "Let us forgive those who trespass against us, just as you forgive us," placing God's forgiveness as the example. But he didn't say that. Why do you think it is framed this way?

[Dave Miller]

It's interesting to consider why Jesus worded the Lord's Prayer the way he did -- why he asked us to pray to God to forgive us, just as we forgive those who trespass against us. One might expect him to say, "Let us forgive those who trespass against us, just as you forgive us," placing God's forgiveness as the example. But he didn't say that. Why do you think it is framed this way?

I think Paul put it that way, though I don't know exactly where. Probably several places.

As always, I believe Christ worded it this way to remind us that we are called first to
humility before God. Exactly to prevent the kind of vapor locked self righteous
attitude that Nin and others exhibit. But alas, to no avail.

Dave

[beanieboy]

I agree.
If you first look at the plank in your eye, if you first think of your own sins you are guilty of today, and can't look up at God because you feel remorse, it's more difficult to put your nose up at others, which does little more than self serve. But if we approach one another in humility, then we can heal one another.

Peace.

[Dave Miller]

I'm not, the only thing I can do is agree with it. So, how are you able to make the claim, "God's Standard is too high for anyone. Neither of us can even think to articulate God's standard."?


How can you not see this? Have you not read Paul? Have you not read the Psalms?


How do you know you have the inability to comply with what you aren't sure He is saying?


Because I trust God's Word. Read Hebrews, Christ, as our High Priest, enters the
Holy of Holies on our behalf. We cannot do this ourselves, we would be incinerated.


If you aren't sure about God's standard, how is it you know you are turning more to His ways?


By the fruits of the Spirit. Always. Peace, kindness, love, humility, gentelness, self
control. Gal 5:22


Do you feel a "homosexual commitment ceremony" is = to accepting Christ?


Uh, no, I don't even know how that's a part of this conversation.


I prefer people to know what I say to them. If someone is in error it does no good to speak behind their backs about it or tells others of their transgessions.



(Lots of self justifying stuff deleted)


I will ask, did it work? Did one pagan turn to Christ after you started your "forgiving God" thread? Not that I have seen. You merely put those who love themselves the most in a position to judge God as needing to be forgiven.


Yes, it works. People who give up on God altogether can find a space for healing,
for re-establishing hope in God. But the first step towards any healing is honesty.
False righteousness which masks anger towards God only makes people bitter.


You keep wanting to drop the part about God commiting sin. How is accusing God of sin showing humilty?


You're no where near understanding even the concept, so I won't waste keystrokes.


Now the Righteous and Holy Creator God is greatful to accept any sin you ascribe to Him? Gee, the least you could do is try to figure out what His stand is and use that one instead of your own.


That's right, He greatfully accepts our sin, and bears the burden and penalty for it.
How can you soooo not understand the sacrifice Christ made on our behalf?


Once again, your total lack of humilty astounds me.


Back atcha


You have wrongly judged me, dave. Instead of displaying this humiltiy you are so big on talking about, you persist in your error and try to add more. : shakes head :

Just answer the question, why did Christ direct us to pray daily, asking God to forgive
our sins?

[Nineveh]

How can you not see this? Have you not read Paul? Have you not read the Psalms?

I've read the whole thing, that's why I can not fathom why don't know where God stands. I also recall you joining in with pagans as they mocked Paul.

Because I trust God's Word. Read Hebrews, Christ, as our High Priest, enters the Holy of Holies on our behalf. We cannot do this ourselves, we would be incinerated.

Christ kept the Law, He didn't have a problem understanding what it said.

By the fruits of the Spirit. Always. Peace, kindness, love, humility, gentelness, self control. Gal 5:22

Well, firstly, even godless pagans can exibit these traits. Secondly, you have said you often ask forevigeness for not bearing these fruits. So, I'll ask again, more specifically, how do you know a "homosexual commitment cerimony" is in line with What God says?

Uh, no, I don't even know how that's a part of this conversation.
To recap:

Me: It's not God's doing to cleans an unrepentant sodomite with a ritual.
You: Nope, its not. ITs through God's Grace in Christ that we all are cleansed.
Me: Do you feel a "homosexual commitment ceremony" is = to accepting Christ?

Are you now saying that uniting two homosexuals leave them in their sin?

(Lots of self justifying stuff deleted)

You mean your fishing expedition came up void, in other words.

Yes, it works. People who give up on God altogether can find a space for healing, for re-establishing hope in God. But the first step towards any healing is honesty.
False righteousness which masks anger towards God only makes people bitter.

You want to help people heal by making them even more self righteous? Dave, the people that were on that thread are just as lost now as ever they were. At least stop lying to yourself about how it brought them to the conclusion they are indeed in need of Christ when all you did was feed their self-righeousness. Leave the healing up to the Physician.

You're no where near understanding even the concept, so I won't waste keystrokes.

To be quite honest, I don't want to be near putting myself in a position of accusing God of sinning. Nice cop out though.

That's right, He greatfully accepts our sin, and bears the burden and penalty for it.
How can you soooo not understand the sacrifice Christ made on our behalf?

Dave, Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sin. He didn't die so you could make Him the scape goat for sins you make up.

Back atcha

I'm not the one that judged you wrongly, then persisted. I am not the one who accuses God of sin while offering false hope to those who reject Him. Nor am I the one who goes so very far in trying to undo the Law so I can make up my own.

Just answer the question, why did Christ direct us to pray daily, asking God to forgive our sins?

Until you understand basic Christianity 101, there in no need to chase your misunderstanding of the Lord's Prayer. You have it backwards. You need to understand the simple things (the milk) before you tear into the meat. ( Going to mock Paul again? )

[Dave Miller]

I've read the whole thing, that's why I can not fathom why don't know where God stands. I also recall you joining in with pagans as they mocked Paul.


Really? Wow! Where exactly does God stand? Enlighten us!


Christ kept the Law, He didn't have a problem understanding what it said.
[/QUOTE}

Christ was God Incarnate. You're not. Little detail you keep forgetting...
Or are you?

[QUOTE]
Well, firstly, even godless pagans can exibit these traits.


Right, which is proof that the Holy Spirit can act through pagans too. This does nothing
to diminish the truth or value of bearing the Fruits of the Spirit. It just serves to show who
is really acting and speaking through the Spirit of Christ, and who is telling lies about
the Spirit.


Secondly, you have said you often ask forevigeness for not bearing these fruits.


Yeah, so? What's the point?


So, I'll ask again, more specifically, how do you know a "homosexual commitment cerimony" is in line with What God says?

To recap:

Me: It's not God's doing to cleans an unrepentant sodomite with a ritual.
You: Nope, its not. ITs through God's Grace in Christ that we all are cleansed.
Me: Do you feel a "homosexual commitment ceremony" is = to accepting Christ?

Are you now saying that uniting two homosexuals leave them in their sin?


Not the subject here. The subject is your inability to humble yourself before Christ
and ask forgiveness, now that you're "repentent."


You want to help people heal by making them even more self righteous? Dave, the people that were on that thread are just as lost now as ever they were. At least stop lying to yourself about how it brought them to the conclusion they are indeed in need of Christ when all you did was feed their self-righeousness. Leave the healing up to the Physician.


What thread? I'm talking about sitting with people who have lost a child or spouse,
and blame God for their loss. What are you talking about?


To be quite honest, I don't want to be near putting myself in a position of accusing God of sinning. Nice cop out though.


IF God allows the death of a loved one, it hurts the person who is left. To the bereaved,
it appears as if God has sinned against them. God doesn't sin against God's self. But
God does accept the blame for our sins.


Dave, Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sin. He didn't die so you could make Him the scape goat for sins you make up.


Huh? Christ died for our sins, but not really? Not my sins? That's cold, even for you.


I'm not the one that judged you wrongly, then persisted.


You've been doing that since the first day I showed up on TOL!!!!


I am not the one who accuses God of sin while offering false hope to those who reject Him.


There is no false hope in God. This is impossible.


Nor am I the one who goes so very far in trying to undo the Law so I can make up my own.


Nin, you're not the judge, God is.


Until you understand basic Christianity 101, there in no need to chase your misunderstanding of the Lord's Prayer. You have it backwards. You need to understand the simple things (the milk) before you tear into the meat. ( Going to mock Paul again? )

Well, since I've explained repentence to you, maybe you can rethink your position
on the value of "repentent folk" asking forgiveness on a daily basis, as Christ directs.

Dave

[Nineveh]

Really? Wow! Where exactly does God stand? Enlighten us!

Us?

Anyway, the Bible is full of God stating His standard of Righteousness, which part did you miss?

Christ was God Incarnate. You're not. Little detail you keep forgetting...
Or are you?

Hardly dave, remember it's not me making up new sins. Jesus says, "follow the Law" many times. So He apparently thought He had been pretty clear laying it out.

Right, which is proof that the Holy Spirit can act through pagans too.

No where does the Bible say God dwells in pagans, no where. This is more false comfort along the lines of you handing out rewards in heaven to pagans.

This does nothing to diminish the truth or value of bearing the Fruits of the Spirit. It just serves to show who is really acting and speaking through the Spirit of Christ, and who is telling lies about the Spirit.

No dave, it just means pagans can be kind, patient and self controlled, etc. It does not mean every person who exhibits these traits is saved. Don't be silly.

Yeah, so? What's the point?

The point is, and was, you ask forgiveness for something that should be a natural out pouring of the Holy Spirit. You make up sin to repent of while ignoring what God calls sin.

Not the subject here. The subject is your inability to humble yourself before Christ and ask forgiveness, now that you're "repentent."

Dave, this is a bald faced lie and you should be ashamed to have uttered it. This makes the 3rd time you have born a false witness against me in this thread.

Recall, once again my witness. I was Baptised with the Spirit upon humbling myself and repenting before God who has just convicted me of my sin.

It's your witness of tickled ears that had no mention of humility or repentance. I will remind you again, I don't have to humble myself before a lying "preacher".

Now, back to the question:

Me: It's not God's doing to cleans an unrepentant sodomite with a ritual.
You: Nope, its not. ITs through God's Grace in Christ that we all are cleansed.
Me: Do you feel a "homosexual commitment ceremony" is = to accepting Christ?

Are you now saying that uniting two homosexuals leave them in their sin?

What thread? I'm talking about sitting with people who have lost a child or spouse, and blame God for their loss. What are you talking about?

Entertaining pagan ideas about God being at fault for death is a lie.

IF God allows the death of a loved one, it hurts the person who is left. To the bereaved, it appears as if God has sinned against them. God doesn't sin against God's self. But God does accept the blame for our sins.

No dave. Man is the cause of sin and death in this world, not God. They most likely believe such falsehoods because of "preachers" like you, who promote them. Every time you accuse God of sin (like tsunamis) you are bearing yet one more false witness, this time against God Himself. God doesn't sin. Nor is He to blame for bad things that happen.

Huh? Christ died for our sins, but not really? Not my sins? That's cold, even for you.

Christ died for our sin as He defines it, not the stuff you make up.

You've been doing that since the first day I showed up on TOL!!!!

Name it. I await your evidence.

There is no false hope in God. This is impossible.

I didn't say there was false hope in God, I said you offer false hope to unrepentant people.

Nin, you're not the judge, God is.

God comments judgement to us. Do you not know we will judge angels? But to be quite honest with you dave, you need a lot of practice because so far, you have been way way way off. You would be a lot closer to judging rightly if you used God's standard instead of your own.

Well, since I've explained repentence to you,

Although from you witness, you don't practice what you preach....

maybe you can rethink your position on the value of "repentent folk" asking forgiveness on a daily basis, as Christ directs.

Once you quit choking on the milk, dave, it would be nice talking meat with you.

[Mateo]

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[Nineveh]

Heyyyyyyyyyy Mateo! Long time no see! How's everything with you these days?



dave,
I'm hoping this will give your error about the Lord's prayer a little rest so you can focus on other things for a while.

Just answer the question, why did Christ direct us to pray daily, asking God to forgive our sins?

Firstly, let's get what the Lord's prayer says right:

In Luke 11 we read:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Jesus is not instructing us with this prayer to pray daily asking forgiveness. Note the periods to end thoughts and begin new ones. Let's see what else Jesus has to tell us about forgiving.

In Luke 17 we read:

"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

Jesus is teaching us here there needs to be repentance before forgiveness. This also makes the case one has to judge. See, "if your brother sins, rebuke him". That means one has to know what a sin is so they can point it out, so the brother has the opportunity to repent of it. For those who feel they sin daily and need to repent to God daily, perhaps it's because they place themselves back under the Law which, in Christ, they are dead to.

Paul instructs us in Romans 7 saying

"For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."

And in Romans 8:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

[Mateo]

Oh you know me... bugging the bride, following her around and picking up the scriptures that keep falling out of her Bible...


;)

[Nineveh]

It's nice to see ya back and well :)

[Mateo]

Nice to see you... I see your still working on that hairball....

[Nineveh]

:o

[Mateo]

I gotta go get some lunch.



You and Dave play nice now...

[Dave Miller]

I gotta go get some lunch.



You and Dave play nice now...

Great to have you back, Mateo. Hope you stick around for awhile...

Dave

[Mateo]

I have learned to be greatful that God has not "blessed" me with everything I have asked for... may you not regret being blessed with me... for however long...

[Dave Miller]

In Luke 11 we read:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Jesus is not instructing us with this prayer to pray daily asking forgiveness. Note the periods to end thoughts and begin new ones.


No punctuation in the original Greek. Periods, paragraphs, etc., all
modern inserts. "Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins," all part
of the same thought. "And" makes that pretty clear. Daily asking forgiveness
works in conjunction with receiving daily bread.


Let's see what else Jesus has to tell us about forgiving.

In Luke 17 we read:

"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."


Matt 18 says:
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[f]

No mention of repentence in Mattew's witness.

And how do you resolve this against the Lord's Prayer? Jesus does not say,
"as we forgive those who repent." It would have been easy for Him to say, He obviously
understood the difference between sin, forgiveness, and repentence.


Jesus is teaching us here there needs to be repentance before forgiveness. This also makes the case one has to judge. See, "if your brother sins, rebuke him". That means one has to know what a sin is so they can point it out, so the brother has the opportunity to repent of it. For those who feel they sin daily and need to repent to God daily, perhaps it's because they place themselves back under the Law which, in Christ, they are dead to.


Or perhaps I am acknowledging, in humility, that I am here by the Grace of God alone,
and obedient to Christ's instructions layed down in the Lord's Prayer.


Paul instructs us in Romans 7 saying

"For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."

And in Romans 8:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.


Paul never claims to be sinless, on the contrary, he humbles himself utterly:

Romans 7:

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

He's not saying "I was a sinner, then I repented," Paul is saying "There is sin living in me,
here and now, I keep doing evil."

[Nineveh]

No punctuation in the original Greek. Periods, paragraphs, etc., all
modern inserts. "Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins," all part
of the same thought. "And" makes that pretty clear. Daily asking forgiveness
works in conjunction with receiving daily bread.

They still move from one thought ot another, dave, as you should be able to. Perhaps you would do well to focus on the first three sentences.

Matt 18 says:
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[f]

No mention of repentence in Mattew's witness.

: shakes head sadly :

Christ himself says, "if they repent, forgive them". You wanted so badly to talk about the Lord's Prayer, and you still have trouble understanding Godly forgiveness to begin with. Which is why I have avoided the topic with you. You fail Christianity 101 on a regular basis.

And how do you resolve this against the Lord's Prayer? Jesus does not say,
"as we forgive those who repent." It would have been easy for Him to say, He obviously
understood the difference between sin, forgiveness, and repentence.

I don't need to reslove anything dave. It's all teaches the same thing. If you won't listen to Christ, who exactly would you listen to? Those that tickle your ears with thoughs of God sinning?

Look at it: God forgive as, as we forgive.

Same/same. Repentance should be forgiven. It basic Bible 101. Look at Nineveh. They were judged, they repented, they were forgiven. God doesn't forgive like dave, dave should forgive like God.

Or perhaps I am acknowledging, in humility, that I am here by the Grace of God alone, and obedient to Christ's instructions layed down in the Lord's Prayer.

If you have any humility dave, you hide it under a bushel.

You have lied about me on this thread and it's been pointed out (judged), are you humble? No. Repentant? No. Should I forgive you? No. Why? Because you have the hard heart of a liar, and it would cheapen forgiveness to do so, you don't want it, you haven't asked for it, so you won't get it. What a perfect example of what we are talking about, and you are missing it.


Paul never claims to be sinless, on the contrary, he humbles himself utterly:

Romans 7:

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

He's not saying "I was a sinner, then I repented," Paul is saying "There is sin living in me,
here and now, I keep doing evil."

He knows he is forgiven. No where does he instruct continually asking forgiveness for sins he makes up. He lives by the Spirit, not self imposed laws.

[Dave Miller]

They still move from one thought ot another, dave, as you should be able to. Perhaps you would do well to focus on the first three sentences.

: shakes head sadly :

Christ himself says, "if they repent, forgive them". You wanted so badly to talk about the Lord's Prayer, and you still have trouble understanding Godly forgiveness to begin with. Which is why I have avoided the topic with you. You fail Christianity 101 on a regular basis.


: Shrugs in disbelief : Focus on the few phrases that support your theology,
ignore the rest.


I don't need to reslove anything dave. It's all teaches the same thing. If you won't listen to Christ, who exactly would you listen to? Those that tickle your ears with thoughs of God sinning?

Look at it: God forgive as, as we forgive.

Same/same. Repentance should be forgiven. It basic Bible 101. Look at Nineveh. They were judged, they repented, they were forgiven. God doesn't forgive like dave, dave should forgive like God.


In relationship with God, repentence is the act of accepting the Grace and
forgiveness which God offers freely. Maybe you should move past bible 101
to some more advanced courses.


If you have any humility dave, you hide it under a bushel.

You have lied about me on this thread and it's been pointed out (judged), are you humble? No. Repentant? No. Should I forgive you? No. Why? Because you have the hard heart of a liar, and it would cheapen forgiveness to do so, you don't want it, you haven't asked for it, so you won't get it. What a perfect example of what we are talking about, and you are missing it.


I'm humble before God, hence my continued persistance in asking God to
forgive me, to remove my weaknesses from me, to help me to allow my
flesh, which sins, to obey the will of my Spirit, which is perfected in Christ.

I have rebuked my sister with honesty and sincerity, as an act of Christian Love.
Just as Luke directs me to in the passages you point out.

And by the way, all this rebuking and honesty, from Jesus and Paul, are clearly
intended to be directed towards people in the church, for the benefit of each
other and for the benefit of the church overall. And its clear that the rebukes
are to presented in a loving way, read 2 Cor some time. As for spewing
poison at Pagans and Buddhists and others outside the tradition, never done,
never called for, never acceptible. As it says in Romans 2, we are drawn to
God through His Grace and Mercy, not through harsh treatment.


He knows he is forgiven. No where does he instruct continually asking forgiveness for sins he makes up. He lives by the Spirit, not self imposed laws.

Bunk, you're not reading Romans 7, your theologizing to the point that you're
ignoring scripture altogether. He knows that he continues to sin. His Spirit longs
for sinlessness, but it is beyond Him. Hence his utter dependence on Christ.

Romans 8 goes on to say that despite the sinful nature of his flesh, he has hope
in the perfection of the Spirit, brought about by Jesus Christ. In the flesh, we
are slaves to the law, in the Spirit, we are free from the law, but here and now,
we are still in the flesh, there is no escape from this.

2 Cor 12:
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul admits he is weak in the flesh, and that weakness persists, but the weakness
serves to keep him humble before God.

OK, Paul does not say "Father forgive me," explicitely, instead he says "Father,
take this weakness from me." Remember, Paul never said he was without
sin, he said sin was a part of his flesh, not spirit, so from that perspective, its
consistant for him to ask God to remove the sin from his person.

Also consistant with Christ suggesting that we ask forgiveness in our prayers
to God, again for the same purpose, that we might maintain proper humility in
relationship with God.

So let me rephrase my question to you, since you have such a hang up over this word forgiveness: since you 've become repentent, are
able, as Paul does, to ask God to continue to remove your persistant fleshly
weaknesses from you?

Dave

[Nineveh]

: Shrugs in disbelief : Focus on the few phrases that support your theology,
ignore the rest.

You mean like all the references to repentance before forgiveness?

In relationship with God, repentence is the act of accepting the Grace and
forgiveness which God offers freely. Maybe you should move past bible 101
to some more advanced courses.

Dave, it's you that denies that repentance is the first step to forgiveness. This is a milk issue.

I'm humble before God, hence my continued persistance in asking God to
forgive me, to remove my weaknesses from me, to help me to allow my
flesh, which sins, to obey the will of my Spirit, which is perfected in Christ.

You make up sins to be humble for, dave, while ignoring what God clearly calls sin.

I have rebuked my sister with honesty and sincerity, as an act of Christian Love.
Just as Luke directs me to in the passages you point out.

You have judged wrongly. You have been rebuked, and you persist in your error.

And by the way, all this rebuking and honesty, from Jesus and Paul, are clearly
intended to be directed towards people in the church, for the benefit of each
other and for the benefit of the church overall.

And you heed them not on this thread.

And its clear that the rebukes
are to presented in a loving way, read 2 Cor some time. As for spewing
poison at Pagans and Buddhists and others outside the tradition, never done,
never called for, never acceptible. As it says in Romans 2, we are drawn to
God through His Grace and Mercy, not through harsh treatment.

Once again you are in error. If harsh rebuke is needed it should be used. You can't manage to judge simple things rightly dave, so it's no wonder you offer false hope instead of rebuke.

Bunk, you're not reading Romans 7, your theologizing to the point that you're
ignoring scripture altogether. He knows that he continues to sin. His Spirit longs
for sinlessness, but it is beyond Him. Hence his utter dependence on Christ.

Paul said he is dead to the Law, dave. Why not start at Romans 1 and work your way through the whole book?

Romans 8 goes on to say that despite the sinful nature of his flesh, he has hope
in the perfection of the Spirit, brought about by Jesus Christ. In the flesh, we
are slaves to the law, in the Spirit, we are free from the law, but here and now,
we are still in the flesh, there is no escape from this.

Is that why you would offer "homosexual commitment cerimonies"? To keep homos in the flesh? Should we continue to sin so that grace may abound? Paul answers that one dave, what did he say?

2 Cor 12:
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul admits he is weak in the flesh, and that weakness persists, but the weakness
serves to keep him humble before God.

And you claim Pauls "thorn in the flesh" is, what?

OK, Paul does not say "Father forgive me," explicitely, instead he says "Father,
take this weakness from me." Remember, Paul never said he was without
sin, he said sin was a part of his flesh, not spirit, so from that perspective, its
consistant for him to ask God to remove the sin from his person.

I think your misunderstanding derives from what you believe Paul's thorn is.

Also consistant with Christ suggesting that we ask forgiveness in our prayers
to God, again for the same purpose, that we might maintain proper humility in
relationship with God.

Go ahead, dave, if you can't manage to live by the Spirit through faith, put yourself back under the Law, who am I to keep you from it?

So let me rephrase my question to you, since you have such a hang up over this word forgiveness: since you 've become repentent, are
able, as Paul does, to ask God to continue to remove your persistant fleshly
weaknesses from you?

Once again, your misunderstanding leads you to an error in judgement about Paul's thorn.

[Dave Miller]

So, you think that Paul sat on a rose bush? How convenient for your false sense
of sinlessness...

[Nineveh]

Answer the question.

And you claim Pauls "thorn in the flesh" is, what?

[Dave Miller]

You first....

[Nineveh]

Dave,
Quit playing games. What do you believe Paul's thorn in his flesh was?

[Dave Miller]

I believe he had a weakness in the flesh of some sort, as he indicates.
Not a physical handicap, but something real and severe enough that he
drew "insults and hardships" for it, again as he indicates in his letter.

How 'bout you? How does your sinless theology spin this one?

Dave

[Nineveh]

I think you went a little further than that before, what was it you said you thought his "weakness" was?

[Dave Miller]

I think you went a little further than that before, what was it you said you thought his "weakness" was?

I don't recall going any further, though its possible. Though redeemed,
I'm not sinless, after all.

Anyway, its your turn. What's your sinless spin on it?

[Nineveh]

I don't recall going any further, though its possible. Though redeemed,
I'm not sinless, after all.

Anyway, its your turn. What's your sinless spin on it?


I think you did go a little further. As you did with David's friendship.

But let's look to what Paul has to say about his "thorn in the flesh".

Galatians 4:12-16 12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What 14 then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

I believe his "thorn in the flesh" he asked Christ to take away was an eye ailment. With the above verse, I believe your statements, "weakness in the flesh of some sort, as he indicates. Not a physical handicap" is in error.

[Dave Miller]

I think you did go a little further. As you did with David's friendship.

But let's look to what Paul has to say about his "thorn in the flesh".

Galatians 4:12-16 12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What 14 then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

I believe his "thorn in the flesh" he asked Christ to take away was an eye ailment. With the above verse, I believe your statements, "weakness in the flesh of some sort, as he indicates. Not a physical handicap" is in error.

Why would he draw ridicule for having an eye problem?

Plucking out an eye has scriptural significance, after all. If your eye offends
you, pluck it out, Jesus said. Temptation is received through the eyes...

Anyway, in Romans 7 he makes great, great effort to say that he has sin in
his flesh, how can you deny this? He never recants it, he never says "until
I repented, then I no longer had the sin in my flesh." He said he was sinless
in Spirit, yes, but never in the flesh.

Your Galatians quote says "physical infirmity." In Paul's language of "sin in the
flesh," and "corruptible flesh," this could easily be related to a sinful weakness
of some kind. "Trials in the flesh" also reinforces the idea of his struggle with
sin.

Dave

[Nineveh]

Why would he draw ridicule for having an eye problem?

Plucking out an eye has scriptural significance, after all. If your eye offends
you, pluck it out, Jesus said. Temptation is received through the eyes...

I guess you are free to ignore the "physical infirmity" part if you like, since it doesn't agree with your assesment of what he is saying there. Besides, why add the "and given them to me"? Sounds sort of odd, doesn't it?

Anyway, in Romans 7 he makes great, great effort to say that he has sin in
his flesh, how can you deny this? He never recants it, he never says "until
I repented, then I no longer had the sin in my flesh." He said he was sinless
in Spirit, yes, but never in the flesh.

He is explaining the war between the spirit and the flesh all believers deal with, geewiz dave, how far are you going to go to justify your lie about me?

Your Galatians quote says "physical infirmity." In Paul's language of "sin in the
flesh," and "corruptible flesh," this could easily be related to a sinful weakness
of some kind. "Trials in the flesh" also reinforces the idea of his struggle with
sin.

Except he didn't say that. He said "physical infirmity". He knows the difference between his spirit and his flesh. It seems you want him to say something he doesn't. It's not Paul, but your homosexual theology that is speaking here.

I really wish you would answer my question about your "homosexual commitment cerimonies" and if you see that as being equal to humbling onself and accepting Christ or if it leaves sodomites in their sin.

[Dave Miller]

From Strongs Greek Lexicon of KJV:

Rom 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity (769) of your flesh (4561): for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity ; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Gal 4:13

Ye know how through infirmity (769) of the flesh (4561) I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

Words 769, (Strong's Number 769 matches the Greek astheneia), infirmity, and flesh, 4561, ( Strong's Number 4561 matches the Greek sarx) used by Paul in both verses, clarifying the context in which he uses the phrase "infirmity of the flesh." Infirmity as in weakness
as in Romans 6:19 "yielding your members servants of uncleanness." Same language
he uses to describe himself.

I think putting Paul on a sinless pedestal is wrong, but I think putting ourselves on a
sinless pedestal is even wronger.

Dave

[Nineveh]

Dave,
Be honest, I never said Paul didn't sin. I said he never taught us to repent continually of made up sin.

What is wrong dave, is making up sin to repent of.

Losing your patience isn't a sin, it's evidence one needs to pray and seek God's council on issues so the Spirit can bear fruit in our lives.

The night I repented, I repented of having a hard, ungreatful, calloused heart towards God and His Way, the pain/weight/guilt of the sin that I had committed was too much for me to bear. So I threw myself on God's mercy at the foot of the Cross and was Baptized.

My heart is no longer in continuous rebellion toward the Creator, so there is no need for me to continually ask for what He has already so generously given me, a new life in Christ. When I err, my heart is already contrite towards Him, He doesn't have to keep pounding me over the head that HE IS RIGHT, because I know He is.

As far as being humble and repentant towards men, when I sin against someone, or am in error, I don't want to stay wrong or keep my relationship with my brother in a mess. I'd rather know right away so I can fix it as soon as possible.

Why you persist in your error filled judgement against me, I do not know.

Are you ever going to answer my question about "homosexual commitment cerimonies"?

[Dave Miller]

Dave,
Be honest, I never said Paul didn't sin. I said he never taught us to repent continually of made up sin.

What is wrong dave, is making up sin to repent of.

Losing your patience isn't a sin, it's evidence one needs to pray and seek God's council on issues so the Spirit can bear fruit in our lives.

The night I repented, I repented of having a hard, ungreatful, calloused heart towards God and His Way, the pain/weight/guilt of the sin that I had committed was too much for me to bear. So I threw myself on God's mercy at the foot of the Cross and was Baptized.

My heart is no longer in continuous rebellion toward the Creator, so there is no need for me to continually ask for what He has already so generously given me, a new life in Christ. When I err, my heart is already contrite towards Him, He doesn't have to keep pounding me over the head that HE IS RIGHT, because I know He is.

As far as being humble and repentant towards men, when I sin against someone, or am in error, I don't want to stay wrong or keep my relationship with my brother in a mess. I'd rather know right away so I can fix it as soon as possible.

Why you persist in your error filled judgement against me, I do not know.

Are you ever going to answer my question about "homosexual commitment cerimonies"?

Whoever said God continually pounds us? I never said that.

Anyway, I appreciate your "acknowledgement of contrition." Case closed.

And no, I'm not beating that commitment ceremony horse right now, not in this
thread. When I feel like being bruised and abused again, I'll start another thread
and we can go 'round and 'round once again.

This was a good conversation though, lots of good scripture back and forth. Any
journey which delves into Pauline doctrine is a good one.

Peace,

Dave

[Nineveh]

Whoever said God continually pounds us? I never said that.

I didn't say you did. However, you act as if He does. You must feel guilty if you feel the need to repent so much. Perhaps it's the definitions you use : shrugs :

Anyway, I appreciate your "acknowledgement of contrition." Case closed.

Pardon? My witness has never changed, dave.

And no, I'm not beating that commitment ceremony horse right now, not in this
thread. When I feel like being bruised and abused again, I'll start another thread
and we can go 'round and 'round once again.

The question was simple, does this ceremony equate to repenting and accepting Christ, or does it leave a sodomite in their sin?

This was a good conversation though, lots of good scripture back and forth. Any
journey which delves into Pauline doctrine is a good one.

That is, when you aren't mocking him.

Peace,

I wonder if you know the meaning of that word in an empathetic way. :think:

[Dave Miller]

I didn't say you did. However, you act as if He does. You must feel guilty if you feel the need to repent so much. Perhaps it's the definitions you use : shrugs :


Once again, I never used the words "need for repentence." The words were
"asking for forgiveness," as Christ said in the Lord's prayer, and as Paul did
in asking for his weakness in the flesh to be removed from him.


Pardon? My witness has never changed, dave.

Whatever


The question was simple, does this ceremony equate to repenting and accepting Christ, or does it leave a sodomite in their sin?


Talkin' to the hand...


That is, when you aren't mocking him.

I wonder if you know the meaning of that word in an empathetic way. :think:

Nice, grascious conclusion, as always.

Psalm 120:

5 Woe to me that I dwell in Meshech,
that I live among the tents of Kedar!

6 Too long have I lived
among those who hate peace.

7 I am a man of peace;
but when I speak, they are for war.

[Nineveh]

Once again, I never used the words "need for repentence." The words were "asking for forgiveness," as Christ said in the Lord's prayer, and as Paul did
in asking for his weakness in the flesh to be removed from him.

And once again I think you are in error not only in what Paul hasn't said and what the Lord's Prayer says and means. You haven't listen to them, you surely won't listen to me, obviously.

Whatever

No, not "whatever", you are still an unrepentant liar.

Talkin' to the hand...

More like a thick head and deaf ears that refuse to hear.

Does your "homosexual commitment ceremony" equate to repenting and accepting Christ, or does it leave a sodomite in their sin?

Nice, grascious conclusion, as always.

Whether I have tack or not doesn't speak to your understanding of true Peace in Christ.

[Big Finn]

I don't know what all the background is for this obviously long standing disagreement, nor the theologicial or moral stands of either participant, but I'd like to point out something that is very obvious to me.

Christ said we are His friends if we do what He asks us to do. This wording of His is based in relationships, and more specifically in human relationships. In the light of having a relationship with Christ as a friend the very idea that we shouldn't daily ask His forgiveness when we do wrong towards Him and our fellow man (sin) is preposterous.

God, all throughout the OT, used the symbolism of marriage to describe the relationship between He and His people. And, since no one is saved corporately, but rather as an individual, the symbolism of marriage shows the closeness of the relationship, the intimacy, that God desires with each of us.

So, does anyone here think they are insulting their husband or wife if they actually ask forgiveness for something they have done wrong towards that person? Does anyone here think you can sustain your relationship with your husband or wife over the years if you always refuse to apologize for any wrong you have committed, any hurt inflicted? Does anyone here actually think their spouse would be insulted if you apologize for a misdeed?

It's ludicrous to even suggest that it's possible to maintain a loving relationship with that type of attitude towards repentance and forgiveness. Why do people think that God, who wants a daily, intimate, personal, relationship with them would not want to hear words of repentance, love, and humility from those who call themselves His friends? Why would God not want us to express our love for Him through our actions toward Him? Is expressing love and respect for God the antithesis of faith? Does anyone really want to take that position?

To tell the truth I see a huge amount of arrogance and pride in any position that says daily repentance and forgiveness is not needed to maintain a loving relationship with God. That any Christian would even think that they should show God less respect and love than they would show a fellow human being is something that just astounds me....

[Mateo]

The big guy always was one of the bright ones... few though they be that come to Him... nonetheless, come they do...few though they be...



;)

[Frank Ernest]

Is it really that hard for you to admit that you, Nineveh, still need forgiveness?
For what?

[Nineveh]

Big Finn,
It might help to discern between what dave feels needs forgiven, what doesn't, and from who.

An immediate example would be asking forgiveness for derailing a thread, yet being completely unrepentant for bearing false witness.

[Dave Miller]

Big Finn,
It might help to discern between what dave feels needs forgiven, what doesn't, and from who.

An immediate example would be asking forgiveness for derailing a thread, yet being completely unrepentant for bearing false witness.

Why do you choose to ignore the Gospel of Matthew?

[Nineveh]

Why do you choose to persist in being unrepentant for being a false witness?

[Balder]

I think you may be bearing false witness about Dave bearing false witness....


:think:

[Dave Miller]

Lets look at the history here.

A long time ago, on a thread far far away, you challenged (putting it nicely) my statements
regarding the need for Christians to ask forgiveness on a daily basis. In your argument,
you stated that a repentant Christian no longer needs to ask forgiveness for sins.

Knowing that Christ Himself directs us all to ask forgiveness on a daily basis, vis a vis the
Lord's Prayer, I asked you to clarify your interpretation of the Lord's Prayer.

You refused. (to put it nicely.)

After that, I correctly and accurately accepted and described your viewpoint, that repentant
Christians, yourself included, need not ask forgiveness on a daily basis, indeed, not ever,
after said act of repentance.

In this thread, I think I successfully argued that Paul never considered himself sinless.
To which you replied:

My heart is no longer in continuous rebellion toward the Creator, so there is no need for me to continually ask for what He has already so generously given me, a new life in Christ. When I err, my heart is already contrite towards Him, He doesn't have to keep pounding me over the head that HE IS RIGHT, because I know He is.

As far as being humble and repentant towards men, when I sin against someone, or am in error, I don't want to stay wrong or keep my relationship with my brother in a mess. I'd rather know right away so I can fix it as soon as possible.


Now, based on my understandings of being in contrition and asking forgiveness, I would
conclude that we are in agreement regarding a repentent Christian's need to remain
in a relationship of humility before Christ. This is the idea I was trying to project from the
beginning, and I see now that we are in agreement. So, I recant any statement I ever
made regarding your inability to ask forgiveness of God through Christ.

Dave

[Nineveh]

I think you may be bearing false witness about Dave bearing false witness....


:think:

The thread is here for you to read :)

[Nineveh]

No, dave, we are not in agreement. My witness has never changed. Not from the first time I told you and you tried to discredit it, to this day.

What I told you was that you make up sin to ask forgiveness for on a daily basis. Which time out of 100 did you miss it?

"So, I recant any statement I ever made regarding your inability to ask forgiveness of God through Christ."

Some might say, "I'm sorry I lied about you." Wanna give it one more shot? They say 3rd times a charm.

[Dave Miller]

I dug forever, but I found the quote that led to all this:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=629741&postcount=170

You asked me if I had repented. I said I do every day. Then I asked "how about you."
and you replied that you only needed to repent once. That's the source of this whole
"false witness" thing.

You use the words repentence and forgiveness interchangeably, and so did I.

I'm humble enough to ask the Lord's forgiveness every day. I'm on a journey in which
repentence is an ongoing process, but by your definition, I gave my life to Christ many
years ago.

As it turns out, I misquoted you, and for that I apologize.

Dave

[Nineveh]

She [Nineveh] believes that she has no need to ask God
for forgiveness, not ever.

I only needed to repent once. Jesus is enough. I am now forgiven and dead to the Law because I have Christ's Righteousness, instead of my own.

Same? Nope. And it's really too bad you didn't link to the whole conversation of the thread, why is that dave? Was that the thread your witness was on?

You asked me if I had repented. I said I do every day. Then I asked "how about you."
and you replied that you only needed to repent once. That's the source of this whole
"false witness" thing.

If I recall, I also asked you of what things you asked forgiveness for so often. Recall what you said? Losing your patience, being unkind, basically an anti-list of the Fruits. Unkindness isn't a sin, nor is losing one's patience. Which leads me back to you making up things to repent of daily.

To make this clear (one more time)....

Not exhibiting the Fruits of the Spirit is an indicator you are lacking the natural outpouring of the Spirit, not committing sin.

You use the words repentence and forgiveness interchangeably, and so did I.

Oh, but dave, you chastised me in this thread for that very thing. How very slimy of you to try to use it to weasel out now.

I'm humble enough to ask the Lord's forgiveness every day.

And then love your neighbor as yourself. You just can't seem to bring yourself to make that apology can you, dave?

I'm on a journey in which repentence is an ongoing process, but by your definition, I gave my life to Christ many years ago.

No, actually your witness was surrendering yourself to a god that told you there are birds in heaven.

As it turns out, I misquoted you, and for that I apologize.

I accept your apology for misquoting me. Now, how about, "I'm sorry I lied about you."? There are now 6 pages on this thread of you trying to convince me you were right in your judgement, and you were in error. Time to fix that.

[Mateo]

I stumbled onto something that might be germain to the discussion at hand...




Representatives of this new off-shoot, the "Lord Our Righteous*ness Church" (formerly called "Life Supports") are traveling all over North America. They have already sent missionaries overseas. Their sole targets are Seventh-day Adventist believers. Wherever they go, the agents of LOR amass the wealth of captured Adventists and train new converts to be additional Lorite group leaders.

You will learn in this study how they are devastating Seventh-day Adventist homes, as they take away with them wives, husbands, and chil*dren. Read these brief Informa*tion sheets carefully. Any day now, they may come to your lo*cal community, and you or several of your loved ones may be next. This is the closest thing to Adventist Moonyism to enter among us. Although it is the sheerest fanaticism, faithful Advent believers are routinely caught in the net during the very first meeting they attend. Captivated, brainwashed, they then submit to orders by men who brazenly call themselves god.

Originally entitled "Life Supports, " this organization recently officially adopted the name, "The Church, the Lord Our Righteousness. " Therefore, throughout this study, we will refer to their organization as LOR, and to them as Lorites, since, as you will learn later in this study, they have very little to do with our precious Lord.
[...]

Wayne Bent was an Adventist minister for 12 years. All or most of his pastorates were in the Southeastern California Conference. At some point in his work, he obtained a master's degree in religion from Loma Linda University. While pastoring in Colton, California, he developed a seminar which he called "Life Supports." After his wife left him, Bent left the Adventist ministry and began working full time on his seminars. Eventually, church leaders in Southeastern California Conference asked him to stop holding seminars in their churches. Something about what he was doing bothered them. Later recalling the incident, Bent comments, "The rejection of Bent's message is the rejection of God. Therefore God has rejected the denomination. "

Those who know him well, say that Wayne Bent has been strongly influenced by certain associates to carry his original messages to their present most terrible extremes. The first influential one was David Mead, and he has worked closely with him for the past several years. At first, Bent conducted all of the seminars, and then David Mead joined him and began holding them also. At some point in their work, we now know that Bent and Mead took special New Age courses with a focus on EST. Then, John Whitcomb joined them. Even down to the present time, it is recognized that Wayne Bent is at the top of LOR, with David Mead second in command, and John Whitcomb in third place. Ranking close behind them is Richard Roos. Roos, with his wife Bonny, were formerly Adventist missionaries in Africa. Among the top leaders only Bent and Roos, to our knowledge, were ever in denominational ministerial work.

Bent first met Mead and Whitcomb while at the Colton Church. Later, when refused permission by the Southeastern California Conference to continue to hold life Supports Seminars under their auspices (and therefore in their church buildings), the group started holding separate meetings at High Grove. This was a United Methodist Church that they rented in that area.

From the beginning, David Mead had the concept of "Follow me or get out," and gradually this pressure-tactic took control of the entire group. Still later, af*ter John Whitcomb and Richard Roos joined their teaching staff, they moved their headquarters to Sand point, Idaho, where they are today.

One of the first concepts taught was that of "the gift. " ("Would you like to have victory? You can have it right now. Christ offers you total sinlessness for*ever more through me, beginning at this moment, if you will but accept it and ac*knowledge me, and my group as your spiritual master. You will never again sin, and never again need Christ, or the Inspired Word for any guidance or help. ") "The gift of instantaneous sin*lessness" continues to remain the must fundamental of points in their first-night presentation, during which they entrap innocent Adventists.





Seems it's going around these days...

[Nineveh]

Mateo,
Thanks for the long reply, but simply, Christ said, "if your brother sins, rebuke him, if he repents, forgive him..."

[Mateo]

Yes Nineveh, I recall that. What I am addressing with this post is the notion that you seem to be kind of flirting with along with no small number of the Open Theists/Enyartians at this website and never so vociferously as by "He Whose Name Must Not Be Mentioned In His Absense". Namely, the notion that after accepting Christ one becomes sinless... or, as "HWNMNBMIHA" insisted, even incapable of sin.

I find the notion curious, to say the least.

[Nineveh]

Well, perhaps you shouldn't focus on the wrong thing, then. The problem is a heart issue. A hard heart is never humble or repentant, not to God and not to man. Making up personal sins to feel sorry for isn't addressing a larger issue, what God calls sin. If you wanna start a thread about your thoughts on being under the Law, though, please feel free :)

[Mateo]

Well, perhaps you shouldn't focus on the wrong thing, then. The problem is a heart issue. A hard heart is never humble or repentant, not to God and not to man. Making up personal sins to feel sorry for isn't addressing a larger issue, what God calls sin. If you wanna start a thread about your thoughts on being under the Law, though, please feel free :)


Couldn't pin the tail on Dave so now you wanna pin it on me... no thanks. I ain't sittin' still for it either...


... and if you want to dodge the issue proferred, I understand... I would feel something less than comfortable defending it as well.


;)

[Nineveh]

Couldn't pin the tail on Dave so now you wanna pin it on me... no thanks. I ain't sittin' still for it either...

You didn't lie about me, so acting as if I am accusing you of something is pretty stupid. If you can't follow along, put the book down :)

... and if you want to dodge the issue proferred, I understand... I would feel something less than comfortable defending it as well.

Perhaps the issue is your unwillingness to make a thread to argue your thoughts on instead of one already dedicated to a topic?

[Dave Miller]

Nin,

I could pick up any of a thousand responses from you and label them "lies about be me,"
but that would be juvenile at best. Conversation is a process of learning each other's
viewpoints, which includes restating in one's own words what another person is trying
to articulate, and getting feedback as to whether that interpretation is getting closer
to the truth.

In the past several weeks, I've learned that we start with different assumptions regarding
the meaning of asking forgiveness, repenting, and a person's relationship with Christ
as part of the repentence process.

You've interchangeably used the terms "repentence" and "asking forgiveness," which led
to my "restatement of your opinion" as being "after asking forgiveness once of Christ,
one need never ask forgiveness again."

You then restated your position as being one of "constant contrition," after having asked
for forgiveness, or repenting.

Now my interpretation of this is that being in a state of constant contrition, you are in
fact in constant humility before Christ, which is what I was trying to say my relationship
with Christ is when I stated "I repent every day."

A better way to express my relationship with Christ would be that I live in a state of
constant repentence, repentence is now a part of my day to day life, as I strive to open
my heart to God's Will on an ongoing basis. Part of this process, for me, is asking God's
forgiveness on an ongoing basis, as Christ directs us to do in the Lord's Prayer.

Perhaps I misinterpreted your viewpoints and restated them incorrectly, which I've
apologized for several times, but I never intentionally lied about you.

Now, I know you don't really care about my opinions or interpretations of scripture,
repentence, forgiveness, or anything for that matter. It appears to me that all that
matters to you is manipulation of words and throwing fecal matter at people you
dislike (like Dave Miller and homosexuals in particular.)

Christ says that our relationship with God is reflected in the way we treat others. Well,
based on the way you treat others, I have no doubt about your relationship with God,
your state of constant contrition is really one of self loathing and God loathing, which is
projected onto others.

[Nineveh]

Now, I know you don't really care about my opinions or interpretations of scripture,
repentence, forgiveness, or anything for that matter.

There is a reason for that dave, and this thread stands in testament to it.

[The Edge]

Same? Nope. And it's really too bad you didn't link to the whole conversation of the thread, why is that dave? Was that the thread your witness was on?



If I recall, I also asked you of what things you asked forgiveness for so often. Recall what you said? Losing your patience, being unkind, basically an anti-list of the Fruits. Unkindness isn't a sin, nor is losing one's patience. Which leads me back to you making up things to repent of daily.

To make this clear (one more time)....

Not exhibiting the Fruits of the Spirit is an indicator you are lacking the natural outpouring of the Spirit, not committing sin.



Oh, but dave, you chastised me in this thread for that very thing. How very slimy of you to try to use it to weasel out now.



And then love your neighbor as yourself. You just can't seem to bring yourself to make that apology can you, dave?



No, actually your witness was surrendering yourself to a god that told you there are birds in heaven.



I accept your apology for misquoting me. Now, how about, "I'm sorry I lied about you."? There are now 6 pages on this thread of you trying to convince me you were right in your judgement, and you were in error. Time to fix that.
Nin, just out of curiousity, do you believe that the Christian life is one of continual repentance from daily sin?

Edge

[Nineveh]

I will refer you to post #75.

[The Edge]

Post 75 read.

Most of it is right, but the Scripture teaches that yes, Jesus forgives us for all our sins at the moment of salvation; that's when he actually saves us. But, thereafter the Word teaches that it's continual. We must ask him for forgiveness and repent and die to self daily. You believe that, right?

I believe that if people think they only need to ask for forgiveness once at the moment of salvation, they could fall into a habit where they treat that as a license to sin (don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing you of that). They think that since their future sins are forgiven they have the right to act that way.

[Nineveh]

Post 75 read.

Most of it is right, but the Scripture teaches that yes, Jesus forgives us for all our sins at the moment of salvation; that's when he actually saves us. But, thereafter the Word teaches that it's continual. We must ask him for forgiveness and repent and die to self daily. You believe that, right?

What exactly do you feel is continual? And where is it taught in the Scriptures?

I believe that if people think they only need to ask for forgiveness once at the moment of salvation, they could fall into a habit where they treat that as a license to sin (don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing you of that). They think that since their future sins are forgiven they have the right to act that way.

I think Paul addressed this in Romans 6. Once Baptised into the Body, do you feel we are under the Law or, do we live by the Spirit from that point on?

[logos_x]

:thumb: Nin

[The Edge]

I'll respond to this a little later tonight. I just got home from several days of working 12 hour shifts at the weather squadron. Pretty tired. :) Just to let you know I didn't forget about ya.

[The Edge]

The reason I believe forgiveness and repentance are continual is the Lord's Prayer. It says to pray daily "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." And the theologian Wayne Grudem summed it up better than I could:
"it is important to realize that faith and repentance are not confined to the beginning of the Christian life. They are rather attitudes of heart that continue throughout our lives as Christians...Therefore, although it is true that initial saving faith and initial repentance occur only once in our lives, and when they occur they constitute true conversion, nonetheless, the heart attitudes of repentance and faith only begin at conversion. These same attitudes should continue throughout the course of our Christian lives. Each day there should be heartfelt repentance for sins that we have committed, and faith in Christ to provide for our needs and to empower us to live the Christian life."

[Dave Miller]

The reason I believe forgiveness and repentance are continual is the Lord's Prayer. It says to pray daily "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." And the theologian Wayne Grudem summed it up better than I could:
"it is important to realize that faith and repentance are not confined to the beginning of the Christian life. They are rather attitudes of heart that continue throughout our lives as Christians...Therefore, although it is true that initial saving faith and initial repentance occur only once in our lives, and when they occur they constitute true conversion, nonetheless, the heart attitudes of repentance and faith only begin at conversion. These same attitudes should continue throughout the course of our Christian lives. Each day there should be heartfelt repentance for sins that we have committed, and faith in Christ to provide for our needs and to empower us to live the Christian life."

This is a truth I discovered through working in addiction chaplaining.

People that "repent once," and find themselves back in addiction, are left
completely hopeless, because conventional Christian wisdom is the old
"well then, you never really were saved in the first place." And in this
setting, as in many others, people without hope literally, physically die.


But if repentence is approached as a step by step process, even a 12 step
process, an interaction occurs between the person and the Holy Spirit that is
miraculous. That interaction is one of asking for help from God, gathering some
strength and healing, and from that new strength, moving forward more and
more, until eventually true healing is achieved. But any addict will tell you, even
once a state of true healing is achieved, one must still, daily, continue to orient
one's self towards God, for the deadly risk of backslide and relapse is always
present.

What's true for addicts is true for everyone: Repentence is a continuing,
ongoing. lifetime process of turning one's Whole Will towards God.

Paul confessed an ongoing seperation within himself, His Spirit desired and
indeed was perfected in Christ, but his flesh still was weak.

The goal of true repentence is healing the seperation that exists between
Spirit and flesh, and in that healing finding Wholeness in God through
Christ.

Dave

[Dave Miller]

The reason I believe forgiveness and repentance are continual is the Lord's Prayer. It says t