One on One: beanieboy's questions get answered.

[Knight]

beanieboy has made the claim that it is very difficult for him to get the answers he desires here at TOL. beanieboy has stated that....If I ask, "is it really christian to be acting the way you are," and someone tells me that I need to shutup or calls me a name, that it isn't answering the question either.

I am fine with getting a straight answer, questioning it, understanding the reasoning, and even agreeing to disagree.
But often, the questions go unanswered.So, I have offered to give beanieboy the direct answers he desires.

In this thread I have agreed to answer any questions that beaniboy has of me and I will answer those questions to the best of my ability without unjustly calling him names or yelling at him.

beanieboy has agreed to consider my answers in an honest way and respond to the counter questions I may ask of him.

At stake for beanieboy is he will no longer be able to criticize TOL for not getting the answers he desires in the manner he prefers. At stake for me will be the possibility of wasting an investment of time if it turns out beanieboy is not sincere in his quest for answers.

Here is how this is going to work. I will field ONE QUESTION at a time. I will not begin to answer a second or third question until I feel we have properly and sufficiently covered the current question. I will answer as many questions as beanieboy wants or until we both determine we have gone as far as we can go and then I will close this thread.

We both have busy schedules so we will do our best to respond to each other in a timely manner.

beanieboy? Do you agree?

If so, please ask your first "unanswered" question.

[Knight]

Oh and beanieboy... I just set up this forum and usergoup so if you cant post or something PM me and I will fix it.

The way it SHOULD work is that any "Focus" usergroup member should be able to post here but everyone else can only view the threads. Currently you are the only member of the "Focus" usergroup.

[Knight]

beanie... when you get a chance could you post something in this thread so that I know you have seen it and that it functions as intented?

[Knight]

beanie?

[beanieboy]

Busy schedule. :) sorry.
This is really nice of you!! Thank you!

I am curious and inquisitive by nature, so, in advance, I appologize for the "why?" responses I may give you, ie, "why is the sky blue?" "because it reflects light." "why?" "Because blue light has shorter wavelengths." "Why"? "Each color has a different wave length enabling us to discern color." Why? ahhhhhh. <---------- apologizing. It's my nature to go to the end of my question.

Hm.

Q: Is a thread like Clete's: Which would you rather - apropriate for this forum? Why or why not?

(and a side question - how do I find this thread again? I found it from catty's shout out.)

[Knight]

Busy schedule. sorry.
This is really nice of you!! Thank you!

I am curious and inquisitive by nature, so, in advance, I appologize for the "why?" responses I may give you, ie, "why is the sky blue?" "because it reflects light." "why?" "Because blue light has shorter wavelengths." "Why"? "Each color has a different wave length enabling us to discern color." Why? ahhhhhh. <---------- apologizing. It's my nature to go to the end of my question.

Hm. OK... good. So now I know my setup works! You can post, I can post... and I am assuming everyone else can only read this thread.

Q: Is a thread like Clete's: Which would you rather - apropriate for this forum? Why or why not?YES. Its appropriate because mocking extreme wickedness is a excellent way of stigmatizing behavior that is exceedingly wicked.

(and a side question - how do I find this thread again? I found it from catty's shout out.)At the top of the thread click on "Thread Tools" and subscribe to this forum. Then you can always find it in your USER CP.

[beanieboy]

OK... good. So now I know my setup works! You can post, I can post... and I am assuming everyone else can only read this thread.

YES. Its appropriate because mocking extreme wickedness is a excellent way of stigmatizing behavior that is exceedingly wicked.

At the top of the thread click on "Thread Tools" and subscribe to this forum. Then you can always find it in your USER CP.

Thanks for the answers.

Followup - do you not think that the behavior was stigmatized already?
I didn't see it really changing opinion. If anything, it created more sympathy.
Does christ command followers to spend a lot of time mocking others?

Q on deck: Calvinism - can you state what problems you see with that belief system?

[Knight]

Thanks for the answers.

Followup - do you not think that the behavior was stigmatized already?An effective stigma is something that is maintained.

I didn't see it really changing opinion. If anything, it created more sympathy.Stigmas are great for polarizing opinion.

It is important that people identify with the side that they are on. A stigma helps to define that side. Those that side with wickedness are sometimes exposed with an effective stigma.


Does christ command followers to spend a lot of time mocking others?This question is too vague. "a lot of time"? I am not sure what you would consider "a lot" and "mocking others"? Who are "others"? Generally speaking "Others" are not to be mocked. Only the wicked is to be mocked, rebuked and warned.

God doesn't want us to leave any tool unused when it comes to preaching the gospel. Eternity is a long time yet life on earth is short. It is more important to pull out all the stops in an attempt to rebuke the wicked than it is to befriend the wicked and then ponder for an eternity if you could have done more.

[beanieboy]

An effective stigma is something that is maintained.

Stigmas are great for polarizing opinion.

It is important that people identify with the side that they are on. A stigma helps to define that side. Those that side with wickedness are sometimes exposed with an effective stigma.


This question is too vague. "a lot of time"? I am not sure what you would consider "a lot" and "mocking others"? Who are "others"? Generally speaking "Others" are not to be mocked. Only the wicked is to be mocked, rebuked and warned.

God doesn't want us to leave any tool unused when it comes to preaching the gospel. Eternity is a long time yet life on earth is short. It is more important to pull out all the stops in an attempt to rebuke the wicked than it is to befriend the wicked and then ponder for an eternity if you could have done more.


I haven't seen the mocking behavior do much more than return equally mocking behavior.
Do you find that mocking pushes people away, or opens them up to what you have to say, more times than not?
On the same line: Is it valid to say that Jesus called sinners Vipers, when it is actually addressed to the pharisees, who were teachers within the temple, and not the tax collectors and prostitutes? Is it honest?

Thanks again.

[Knight]

I haven't seen the mocking behavior do much more than return equally mocking behavior.
Do you find that mocking pushes people away, or opens them up to what you have to say, more times than not?Mocking generally pushes people away.

On the same line: Is it valid to say that Jesus called sinners Vipers, when it is actually addressed to the pharisees, who were teachers within the temple, and not the tax collectors and prostitutes? Is it honest?Jesus used whatever term He felt appropriate for a given situation.

Acknowledging that Jesus used these tactics at all is an affirmation that I am correct and that being harsh is godly.

[beanieboy]

Thanks for your answers.

Q: Calvinism? What are your basic problems with it?

[Knight]

Thanks for your answers.

Q: Calvinism? What are your basic problems with it?The five points of Calvinism (TULIP)

T - Total Inability = No man can come to Christ unless God predestines him to come to Christ. Yet how then could men resist this calling?

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

U - Unconditional Election = Some men are elected to heaven and some men are elected to Hell. Yet God seems to desire ALL men to come to Christ.

John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

1Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

L - Limited Atonement = Christ only died for the elect. Yet the Bible indicates that Christ died for all men.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I - Irresistable Grace = God forces some people to be saved. But how can something be "GRACE" if it is forced?

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

P - Perseverance of the Saints = God will force the saints to persevere. Does God force the believer to persevere or does He simply preserve our inheritance?

Colossians 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory

Colossians 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.

[beanieboy]

Thanks again, Knight.
And thank you for the references.
That's a pretty conplicated answer, so I will have to think about it a bit. :)

[beanieboy]

I might as well give you a question to ponder, while I'm pondering your answer:

Q: do you ever find some problems with what the bible says, and what you believe or understand?

[Knight]

Thanks again, Knight.
And thank you for the references.
That's a pretty conplicated answer, so I will have to think about it a bit. Let me give you a more simple answer....

Calvinism makes the claim that God predestined all events for all of time even down to the smallest detail. Every movement of every molecule, every thought and every action for all of history was predetermined in advance by God.

Yet the Bible is filled with stories describing mans rejection of God and God's will.

[beanieboy]

Let me give you a more simple answer....

Calvinism makes the claim that God predestined all events for all of time even down to the smallest detail. Every movement of every molecule, every thought and every action for all of history was predetermined in advance by God.

Yet the Bible is filled with stories describing mans rejection of God and God's will.

Do a lot of people hold a Calvinistic view? And if so, why did people come to that conclusion?

[Knight]

I might as well give you a question to ponder, while I'm pondering your answer:

Q: do you ever find some problems with what the bible says, and what you believe or understand?Yes . . I do, yet less now than when I was a new Christian.

However, I have far more problems with the alternative.

[Knight]

Do a lot of people hold a Calvinistic view? And if so, why did people come to that conclusion?Calvinism is rooted in Greek philosphy.

It can be traced and documented but I think the answer may be out of the scope of this thread. If you are really interested I can point you to some detailed information.

[beanieboy]

I would. I agree with your problems with it, and would like to figure out the origins, and how one could come to that conclusion.

Again, thanks for the help.

[beanieboy]

Yes . . I do, yet less now than when I was a new Christian.

However, I have far more problems with the alternative.

Can I ask what they are?

I was reading a book called Stealing Jesus, and the author talked about things it was hard to admit he had a problem with, like the virgin birth.

Because of the personal nature of the question, you have a "I'd rather not answer" option here. :)

[Knight]

I would. I agree with your problems with it, and would like to figure out the origins, and how one could come to that conclusion.

Again, thanks for the help.Start here. (http://www.biblicalanswers.com/predestination/Predestination%20book.htm)

[Knight]

Can I ask what they are?

I was reading a book called Stealing Jesus, and the author talked about things it was hard to admit he had a problem with, like the virgin birth.

Because of the personal nature of the question, you have a "I'd rather not answer" option here. Let me answer by listing some things that I previously HAD a problem understanding, but now I know better. :)

- I can remember not understanding the concept of OSAS (once saved always saved).

- I can remember not understanding how the earth could be relatively young instead of amazingly old.

- I can remember being confused that I could be confident in God's forgiveness about some serious past sins in my life.

- I can remember not understanding why there where some really bizarre sounding laws in the Old Testement.

Etc.

[beanieboy]

Let me answer by listing some things that I previously HAD a problem understanding, but now I know better. :)

- I can remember not understanding the concept of OSAS (once saved always saved).

- I can remember not understanding how the earth could be relatively young instead of amazingly old.

- I can remember being confused that I could be confident in God's forgiveness about some serious past sins in my life.

- I can remember not understanding why there where some really bizarre sounding laws in the Old Testement.

Etc.

Those are pretty understanding things to have issues with.

Do you ever have, or had, problems with some of the stories, ie, the talking donkey, the flood, God talking (in voice) etc.?

Or what about now - are there things that you question in other denoms, like speaking in tongues, praying to Mary, etc. ?

And when you have these questions, how do you seek answers? How do you know you have come to God's answer, and not the one you want to believe?

(btw, thanks again, today. This is very generous of your time.)

[Knight]

Those are pretty understanding things to have issues with.

Do you ever have, or had, problems with some of the stories, ie, the talking donkey, the flood, God talking (in voice) etc.?Not really. If God is powerful enough to create something as complicated as the molecule and as vast as the universe I don't find it all that odd that He would be able to grab man's attention in a creative way.

Or what about now - are there things that you question in other denoms, like speaking in tongues, praying to Mary, etc. ?Of course. I question other denominations all the time and I also rebuke them as much as possible on areas that they are in obvious error.

My goal is not to win arguments yet my goal is to be a right as possible and as close to God as possible. For me... working toward my goal means engaging the folks who disagree with my views.

And when you have these questions, how do you seek answers? How do you know you have come to God's answer, and not the one you want to believe?God's word!

That is why the Bible is so incredibly important. For if we didn't have it how would we know when we are right or wrong regarding God's will for us?

And believe it or not there really are right and wrong answers for things like....
- Should we be baptized with water.
- Should we still honor the sabbath
- Can we lose our salvation
- Should we pray to Mary or other saints
- Etc.

(btw, thanks again, today. This is very generous of your time.)It is my pleasure.

[beanieboy]

And believe it or not there really are right and wrong answers for things like....
- Should we be baptized with water.
- Should we still honor the sabbath
- Can we lose our salvation
- Should we pray to Mary or other saints
- Etc.

It is my pleasure.

You realize that you opened a whole can of worms, right :)

[Knight]

You realize that you opened a whole can of worms, right :):chuckle:

[beanieboy]

I have a few questions that popped into my head today:
(answer in your own time)

1. If someone came on the board and said they were Jewish, or Muslim, would it be okay to call them derogatory names so as not to encourage the faith?

2. What is blasphemy against the HS?

3. Why can one not lose their salvation?
If you were christian, and now aren't, why are you still saved?
Or am I misunderstanding that?

[Knight]

I have a few questions that popped into my head today:
(answer in your own time)

1. If someone came on the board and said they were Jewish, or Muslim, would it be okay to call them derogatory names so as not to encourage the faith?If a new member came on TOL and said "Hi, I am Jewish." or "Hi I am Muslim." it would NOT be OK for another TOL member to call them derogatory names.

2. What is blasphemy against the HS?The rejection of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which explains why it would be unpardonable.

Think of it this way....
God forgives us in the same manner that He expects us to forgive others

Luke 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Therefore, if a person sins against you and that person never repents or asks for forgiveness that sin is essentially unpardonable.

3. Why can one not lose their salvation?
If you were christian, and now aren't, why are you still saved?
Or am I misunderstanding that?In the dispensation of grace God seals the believer into the Body of Christ when they repent and accept Christ's work on the cross (2Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). This of course is very different from any other dispensation in the Bible which causes some confusion for those who do not realize that God's "house rules" have changed.

It's difficult for many folks to...
2Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

THEREFORE . . .
If walking away from Christ would be sinful (and it would be) it only makes sense that even the sin of rejection is covered the same as any sin in this dispensation.

If someone has been actually saved (with a pure heart) God will remain faithful and will consider them holy and blameless until the day of redemption.

2Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

If we had to work to maintain salvation through grace it wouldn't be grace at all would it?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

[beanieboy]

If a new member came on TOL and said "Hi, I am Jewish." or "Hi I am Muslim." it would NOT be OK for another TOL member to call them derogatory names.
I'm glad to hear that.

The rejection of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which explains why it would be unpardonable.

Is this different than rejection of Jesus as you PL&S?
As a Lutheran, we rarely talked about the HS, so most of us were never sure what the blasphemy was. It's blasphemous to make a joke about what Jesus said on the cross. So, we were always worried that if we made a joke about the HS, we were going to hell.

When I was a kid, I used to sing in church. Unable to read, I would sing along, "cast me not awayyy from your presence, and take out the Holy Spirit from me..." When I was 7, I read the words: "take NOT the Holy Spirit from me". :shocked: Then having learned about blasphemy of the HS, I lived in fear for months before I explained to my parents why I was acting so strangely in church.



Think of it this way....
God forgives us in the same manner that He expects us to forgive others

Luke 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Therefore, if a person sins against you and that person never repents or asks for forgiveness that sin is essentially unpardonable.

But didn't Jesus say, "father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"?
He was pardoning sin before repentence, and dying for sin before repentence.
Do you not forgive people until they ask for forgiveness?

In the dispensation of grace God seals the believer into the Body of Christ when they repent and accept Christ's work on the cross (2Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). This of course is very different from any other dispensation in the Bible which causes some confusion for those who do not realize that God's "house rules" have changed.

It's difficult for many folks to...
2Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

THEREFORE . . .
If walking away from Christ would be sinful (and it would be) it only makes sense that even the sin of rejection is covered the same as any sin in this dispensation.

If someone has been actually saved (with a pure heart) God will remain faithful and will consider them holy and blameless until the day of redemption.

2Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

If we had to work to maintain salvation through grace it wouldn't be grace at all would it?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

So, technically, I am saved??? :king:

I'll really have to think long and hard about that.

[Knight]

I'm glad to hear that.

Is this different than rejection of Jesus as you PL&S?
As a Lutheran, we rarely talked about the HS, so most of us were never sure what the blasphemy was. It's blasphemous to make a joke about what Jesus said on the cross. So, we were always worried that if we made a joke about the HS, we were going to hell.

When I was a kid, I used to sing in church. Unable to read, I would sing along, "cast me not awayyy from your presence, and take out the Holy Spirit from me..." When I was 7, I read the words: take OUT the Holy Spirit. Then having learned about blasphemy of the HS, I lived in fear for months before I explained to my parents why I was acting so strangely in church.Many churches have a hard time shedding the tendency to be overly legalistic which causes confusion about God and His relationship with us.

But didn't Jesus say, "father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"?Jesus said those words in regard to Him being crucified.

It wouldn't be a good idea to build an entire theology based on a single story that you may be taking out of context.

The key words in Jesus request were.... "for they know not what they do". Now lets review . . . they knew they were executing an innocent man so what was it that they were doing that they weren't aware of?

Jesus knew that those who were crucifying Him had no idea that He was actually God. Jesus mercifully didn't want those crucifying Him to have that massive burden placed on them for all of eternity. Unless all the folks responsible for nailing Jesus to the cross later repented it is very likely they are all in hell, yet it is also possible that the Father has forgiven them (or eased their burden) in regard to nailing the Son of God to the cross.

He was pardoning sin before repentence, and dying for sin before repentence.That isn't what He was doing. He was ASKING that the Father to forgive them for what they were unaware of doing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yet moreover beanie, you know what you are doing! You know you are an abomination to God so why would you choose this story in an attempt to justify your behavior?

Even if all that I already stated regarding this passage weren't accurate it still wouldn't apply to you.

Would it?

Do you not forgive people until they ask for forgiveness?That would be sort of weird don't you think?

So, technically, I am saved???How so?

Have you repented, asked God to forgive you of your sin, believed that God died for you and rose on the third day? And done all of this with a PURE heart?

[beanieboy]

Yet moreover beanie, you know what you are doing! You know you are an abomination to God so why would you choose this story in an attempt to justify your behavior?



Yikes! YAHTZEE! (I wasn't talking about homosexuality. I never mentioned it, never even thought of it.)

I wasn't talking about that.
Yes, I'm very aware of what I am doing.

But I haven't sinned against you. One could argue that I am sinning against God, I suppose.

But what I am talking about are those who sin against you.
A coworker says something really hurtful to you, because he's just kind of a jerk.
Do you forgive him, or are you justified in not forgiving him, because he didn't ask forgiveness? And if you are justified in not forgiving him, what does that intail? Hatred? Anger? Being cruel in return?
Would it?



That would be sort of weird don't you think?

No. I find it harder to hold on to anger, than to simply forgive, turn the other cheek, all of that, and in turn, the person usually lets down their defenses, and says they are sorry.
But returning blow for blow usually builds walls, not bridges.



Have you repented, asked God to forgive you of your sin, believed that God died for you and rose on the third day? And done all of this with a PURE heart?

Hello?? I was raised Christian.
I've talked to God since I can remember (yes, I used to lay in the yard and stare at the clouds and have the kind of conversations I'm having with you, but with God at 4 yrs old. )
I was confirmed. I went to church every Sunday.
I went to bible camp.I went to summer bible school.
At 18, I spoke in tongues for the first time, and for several years after that, was rather fanatical about God.
(If you haven't noticed, I know the bible well.)
I've received Jesus into my heart a good half dozen times (you are often afraid, as a child, with the fear of hell, that it "didn't take")

So, yes, I had.

[beanieboy]

Sorry. Yes, another question. I warned you.

I have this rep, after simply asking the question of how I was attention starved:
Because you stay where you aren't wanted. Go join a quilting bee.

Is this true? Am I not wanted here? Because if so, it is against my beliefs that I should stay, because it is offending another unnecessarily. (don't be afraid to be honest) :(

[Knight]

But what I am talking about are those who sin against you.
A coworker says something really hurtful to you, because he's just kind of a jerk.
Do you forgive him, or are you justified in not forgiving him, because he didn't ask forgiveness? And if you are justified in not forgiving him, what does that intail? Hatred? Anger? Being cruel in return?Saying hurtful things or being rude are not necessarily sinful so in those cases I may "forgive" without repentance.

Don't confuse civility with morality.

No. I find it harder to hold on to anger, than to simply forgive, turn the other cheek, all of that, and in turn, the person usually lets down their defenses, and says they are sorry.
But returning blow for blow usually builds walls, not bridges.SEE ABOVE.

Hello?? I was raised Christian.So what?
I've talked to God since I can remember (yes, I used to lay in the yard and stare at the clouds and have the kind of conversations I'm having with you, but with God at 4 yrs old. )So what?
I was confirmed. I went to church every Sunday.DOUBLE So what?
I went to bible camp.I went to summer bible school.So What?
At 18, I spoke in tongues for the first time, and for several years after that, was rather fanatical about God.So what?

None of those things will save you.
(If you haven't noticed, I know the bible well.)No offense but I think that YOU THINK you know a lot about the Bible. Based on what you post here at TOL I would assert you don't know very much about the Bible.
I've received Jesus into my heart a good half dozen times (you are often afraid, as a child, with the fear of hell, that it "didn't take")I don't think that classifies as "with a PURE heart".

So, yes, I had.Based on what you have just told me I would say you are NOT saved.

Throw in the fact that you are openly homosexual and I think the evidence is somewhat overwhelming.

[Knight]

Sorry. Yes, another question. I warned you.

I have this rep, after simply asking the question of how I was attention starved:
Because you stay where you aren't wanted. Go join a quilting bee.

Is this true? Am I not wanted here? Because if so, it is against my beliefs that I should stay, because it is offending another unnecessarily. (don't be afraid to be honest) :(I don't understand your question.

If you were not wanted here I could have banned you (or asked you to leave) years ago.

[beanieboy]

Saying hurtful things or being rude are not necessarily sinful so in those cases I may "forgive" without repentance.

Don't confuse civility with morality.

SEE ABOVE.

So what?
So what?
DOUBLE So what?
So What?
So what?
No offense but I think that YOU THINK you know a lot about the Bible. Based on what you post here at TOL I would assert you don't know very much about the Bible.
I don't think that classifies as "with a PURE heart".

Based on what you have just told me I would say you are NOT saved.

Throw in the fact that you are openly homosexual and I think the evidence is somewhat overwhelming.


I wasn't homosexual then.
So, you are now saying that although I prayed to God, asked Jesus into my heart, spoke in tongues, and repented of sin since ever I can remember, even though I called myself Christian, believed Jesus was the Son of God, believed that it was necessary to repent of sin and accept the Free Gift, etc., I was never christian???

Then, aparently, repenting, asking Jesus into your heart, even accepting the filling of the HS isn't enough to be saved.

I can't respond to this anymore today, because I'm too angry.

I will admit that I am not christian now.
But I was then.
I was when I was 4.
I was when I was 10.
I was when I was 14 and was confirmed.
I was when I received the gift of tongues.

Say whatever you will about me now, but do NOT judge what I was then.
I swore by Christianity, I led people to Christ.

[Knight]

I wasn't homosexual then.
So, you are now saying that although I prayed to God, asked Jesus into my heart, spoke in tongues, and repented of sin since ever I can remember, even though I called myself Christian, believed Jesus was the Son of God, believed that it was necessary to repent of sin and accept the Free Gift, etc., I was never christian???

Then, aparently, repenting, asking Jesus into your heart, even accepting the filling of the HS isn't enough to be saved.All I am saying is based on what you have told me I would give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't accept Christ with a PURE HEART.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

[beanieboy]

All I am saying is based on what you have told me I would give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't accept Christ with a PURE HEART.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

So, when I was 4 and asked Jesus into my heart, or 7, or 8 (many people taught that I might not have had a PURE heart the last time), it "didn't take"???

Then I think the whole thing is bologna!
If a 7 yr old can't pray for Jesus to come into his heart, because, by your indication, I was filled with homosexual lust, and wasn't serious, or pure of heart (I was 7!!), then this whole thing is a sham.I had nothing to repent for, except maybe stealing a candy bar once!

I think you hate the idea that I might be saved.
In my opinion, I don't agree with OSAS, but since you do, you would have to admit that I am saved, and that upsets you.

Do NOT judge who I was.
I firmly believed in God and Jesus.

[Knight]

Say whatever you will about me now, but do NOT judge what I was then.
I swore by Christianity, I led people to Christ.Does this really matter?

Do you want to be saved?

If not, why care? Why bother to argue that you were a Christian?

Yet....

If so, what would it hurt to affirm your desire to live with God in heaven?

[beanieboy]

Does this really matter?

Do you want to be saved?

If not, why care? Why bother to argue that you were a Christian?

Yet....

If so, what would it hurt to affirm your desire to live with God in heaven?

What does it matter?
I've already done it once, or to be more specific, about 6 times, and asked for God to fill me with the Holy Spirit, and NONE OF IT COUNTS, according to you.

So, why would it matter?

It might not take this time either.

Jesus crucifiction works like something made by Ronco.

[Knight]

I think you hate the idea that I might be saved.
In my opinion, I don't agree with OSAS, but since you do, you would have to admit that I am saved, and that upsets you.It doesn't updet me in the least!

If we both end up in heaven I will be joyous! I will know then that you were saved but living your life in rejection to God.

Yet, because I care . . . I will give you the benefit of the doubt and continue to assume you are not saved.

I certainly don't want to get to heaven and say to myself... where is beanieboy? I thought he said he was saved?

[Knight]

It might not take this time either.Without a pure heart it wont "take".

Matthew 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

[beanieboy]

Beanieboy didn't think beanieboy was saved.
Frankly, that's one of the reasons I question if there is anything to be saved from.

Questioning if someone is a real christian, and not looking for the fruits of the Spirit, - kindness, gentleness, joy, slow to anger, and simply going by ones own judgements is simply self righteous, and disgusts me.

[beanieboy]

The passage says, "but we cast out demons and worked great miracles in your name."

Am I casting out demons in the name of God? Working miracles in the name of God? And I doing ANYTHING in the name of God?

No. He wasn't addressing the non-believers.

[beanieboy]

I don't understand your question.

If you were not wanted here I could have banned you (or asked you to leave) years ago.

So, getting a bad rep for staying where I'm not wanted is a false bad rep?
I don't care about the bad rep itself.
I just want to be clear.

[beanieboy]

I'm going to log off for today.
I appreciate you taking your time.
However, being accused of having never accepted Jesus, especially for how religious and spiritual I have always been, I found highly offensive. And you will notice that I was not offended for what you say of me now, but for judging me then, which I believe was done unjustly.
I'm unsure why it offended me so much, but it felt like it wasn't just me, but something else within me.

So, instead of speaking out in anger, and regretting it, I will simply stop for today.

Namaste

[Knight]

Beanieboy didn't think beanieboy was saved.
Frankly, that's one of the reasons I question if there is anything to be saved from.

Questioning if someone is a real christian, and not looking for the fruits of the Spirit, - kindness, gentleness, joy, slow to anger, and simply going by ones own judgements is simply self righteous, and disgusts me.beanieboy the fruits of the spirit are not dispensed blindly.

Lets examine what I am saying . . .

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

As a practicing homosexual you fall into the above category.

The very next verse describes the fruits of the spirit...
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

So you see, even though you may exhibit behavior at times that is the same as the fruit of the spirit it doesn't nullify the fact that you fit into the descriptions in the previous verses.

Make sense?

In other words.... even a murdering pedophile is usually described by his neighbors as "the nicest guy on the block".

o, getting a bad rep for staying where I'm not wanted is a false bad rep?
I don't care about the bad rep itself.
I just want to be clear.I haven't bad repped you (especially recently) so I am not sure what you are referring to.

I'm going to log off for today.
I appreciate you taking your time.
However, being accused of having never accepted Jesus, especially for how religious and spiritual I have always been, I found highly offensive. And you will notice that I was not offended for what you say of me now, but for judging me then, which I believe was done unjustly.
I'm unsure why it offended me so much, but it felt like it wasn't just me, but something else within me.You are offended that I care enough for you to fight for your eternal destiny?

Let me make one thing clear beanieboy . . . if I really hated you I would be apathetic about your destructive lifestyle.

Leviticus 19:17 ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.

[beanieboy]

No.
I was offended that you made a judgement about me in my youth based on who I am now.
You refer to lust, and suggest that I was lustful at 4, or 6, or 10, or 12.

I tell you that since my youth I have talked to God. You say "so what"?
I tell you that I have accepted Jesus half a dozen times. You say, "so what"?

So, either admit that you don't believe in OSAS, or admit you do, and realize that I am saved.

But do NOT judge me from my youth. You have no right to judge my relationship with God.

[beanieboy]

btw:
I Cor 6:9 Paul lists a many activities that will prevent people from inheriting the Kingdom of God. One has been variously translated as effeminate, homosexuals, or sexual perverts. The original Greek text reads malakoi arsenokoitai. The first word means soft; the meaning of the second word has been lost. [For further discussion of arsenokoitai visit Dr. Rembert Truluck's site.] It was once used to refer to a male temple prostitute (as in the verses from the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament described above). The early Church interpreted the phrase as referring to people of soft morals; i.e. unethical. From the time of Martin Luther, it was interpreted as referring to masturbation . More recently, it has been translated as referring to homosexuals . Each Translator seem to take whatever activity that their society particularly disapproves of and use it in this verse.[1]

I CORINTHIANS 6:9-10

It is amazing the number of times that you will see the word "sodomite" or "homosexual" or "pervert" in different translations concerning this text. It is amazing because no one knows exactly what the words of the original text mean! The layperson, unfortunately, has no way of knowing that interpreters are guessing as to the exact meaning of these words. Pastors and laypersons often have to rely upon the authority of those who have written lexicons (dictionaries explaining the meaning of words) of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic words. The authors of scriptural lexicons search for the meaning of the word within the scriptures themselves and also go outside of scripture and research literature written around the same time the scriptures were written. If the interpreter is already prejudiced against homosexuality they can translate these words as condemning homosexual sex even based upon little usage of that word in the Scriptures and little if any contemporaneous usage of that word.

The truth is that the word some translators "transform" into "sodomite/homosexual/pervert" in I Corinthians 6:9-10 is actually TWO words. Some translators combine them because they "think" they go together but they DO NOT KNOW. This uncertainty is reflected in the fact that other translators keep the words separate and translate them "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind".

The two words in the original Greek are "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai". Malakoi is a very common Greek word. It literally means "soft". It is used in Matthew 11:7-18 and Luke 7:24-25 in reference to soft clothing. Scholars have to look at material outside of the Bible in order to try and figure out just what this means. The early church Fathers used the word to mean someone who was "weak" or "soft" in their morals and from the time of the reformation to the 20th century it was usually interpreted as masturbation. In Greek this word never is applied to gay people or homosexual acts in general. "No new textual data effected the twentieth-century change in translation of this word: only a shift in popular morality. Since few people any longer regard masturbation as the sort of activity which would preclude entrance to heaven, the condemnation has simply been transferred to a group still so widely despised that their exclusion does not trouble translators or theologians." (See Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality, John Boswell, University of Chicago Press, 1980, page 105-107) "Arsenokoitai" is discussed in the next section as it is found here and in I Timothy 1:8-11.

Note: Greek contained no word which compares to the English noun "homosexual" meaning someone of homosexual orientation. In fact the word "homosexual" (meaning someone of homosexual orientation) was not even coined until the late 1800'S by German psychologists, and introduced into English only at the beginning of the 1900's. (See Christianity, Social Tolerance, and homosexuality, John Boswell, University of Chicago Press, 1980, page 42) However, during scriptural times there were a number of Greek words to describe homosexual sex acts and the two words "malakois" and "arsenokoitai" do not appear among them (on "arsenokoitai" see Boswell, pp 345-346.) [2]

Source: OCRT: Bible and Homosexuality

Source: Same Gender Sexual Behavior and the Scriptures
This paper is provided as a service of the Metropolitan Community Church of Topeka, authors Rev. Jonathan Loppnow and Rev. Paul C. Evans. It may be reproduced freely as long as the entire text is reproduced and unaltered, all attributions are left intact and it is not sold for profit or included in a for-profit publication. Copyright © Jan. 7, 1998

[Knight]

btw:
I Cor 6:9 Paul lists a many activities that will prevent people from inheriting the Kingdom of God. One has been variously translated as effeminate, homosexuals, or sexual perverts. The original Greek text reads .....beanie your source is in error.

Some people claim that Paul was mistranslated in Corinthians however the first part of Romans blows that claim out of the water....

Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

I don't think there is any question as to what Paul was saying in the above verse, do you?

Paul continues...
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

[beanieboy]

You can't say that the source is in error, and then move on to another verse.
You have to examine each of the verses individually, and then look at them together, with the information that you have found.

But it is true that it translates to "soft". Some versions of the bible say "effeminate." This one says homosexual. That's a huge difference, wouldn't you say?

[Knight]

No.
I was offended that you made a judgement about me in my youth based on who I am now.
You refer to lust, and suggest that I was lustful at 4, or 6, or 10, or 12.

I tell you that since my youth I have talked to God. You say "so what"?The devil talked with God all the time does that mean the devil is saved?

Talking with God means very little. What is important is the side you choose to be on.

I tell you that I have accepted Jesus half a dozen times. You say, "so what"?

So, either admit that you don't believe in OSAS, or admit you do, and realize that I am saved.beanie anyone can claim they have accepted Jesus into their heart but that doesn't make it so.

Its possible that you did accept Christ with a pure heart at some point in the past but based on your complete rejection of God I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not saved. If I am wrong.... praise the Lord!

But do NOT judge me from my youth. You have no right to judge my relationship with God.Actually, I have every right.

Jesus said.... You will know them by their fruits.

He didn't say . . . you will know them if they are a fruit. :)

[Knight]

You can't say that the source is in error, and then move on to another verse.Yes I can, and I did.

Did you read the Romans chapter?

There is simply no mistake about it.

You can choose to live in the dark if you prefer but you are only fooling yourself and no one else.

[beanieboy]

The very next verse describes the fruits of the spirit...
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

So you see, even though you may exhibit behavior at times that is the same as the fruit of the spirit it doesn't nullify the fact that you fit into the descriptions in the previous verses.
[/b]



I would have to argue that I exhibit the fruits of the spirit, that either shows that I am saved and may not know it, or don't need God, because I display them on my own. I doubt the later.

But as I indicated on another thread, the "fruit of the spirit" is kind of vague.
It is loving to mock someone.
Is that kind? Is it gentle?
Are Clete's posts, for example, goodness, or longsuffering, or displays of self control?

Clete will rationalize his behavior, though. I hate you because I love you, to short hand it.
I mock you because I care. I tell you that your whole life disgusts me because I love you, and want you to move out of your sin.

What's next? I love you, so I have to kill you? It's pretty lame.

btw - "not a fruit"?

Are the cheap shots necessary?
I haven't been serving them to you, I would appreciate if you could do the same.
Thanks.

[beanieboy]

Yes I can, and I did.

Did you read the Romans chapter?

There is simply no mistake about it.

You can choose to live in the dark if you prefer but you are only fooling yourself and no one else.

Stay on the first verse, and then we will move on to Romans. Agreed?

[beanieboy]

The devil talked with God all the time does that mean the devil is saved?

Talking with God means very little. What is important is the side you choose to be on.

beanie anyone can claim they have accepted Jesus into their heart but that doesn't make it so.


I see. So, the devil tempting God, or saying that he wanted to have a contest with Job, is the same as 4 year old beanie asking God what happens when we die, or being 8, and asking God how I could be the apple of his eye, like David.

Then you doubt whether Jesus actually came into my heart when I asked him?

Man, you are above reproach.
I didn't realize that you would be on the throne on Judgement day.

The bottomline is - if anyone leaves the fold, they were never a christian in the first place.
That is simply not true.

The lost sheep?
The prodigal son?

well, the sheep was NEVER really in the fold, and the son was never REALLY the son of the Father.

[Knight]

Stay on the first verse, and then we will move on to Romans. Agreed?Why? That would be silly! The Romans verse proves beyond any doubt that homosexuality is sinful.

When the answer can be found so easily why obfuscate by overlooking it?

[Knight]

I see. So, the devil tempting God, or saying that he wanted to have a contest with Job, is the same as 4 year old beanie asking God what happens when we die, or being 8, and asking God how I could be the apple of his eye, like David.

Then you doubt whether Jesus actually came into my heart when I asked him?

Man, you are above reproach.
I didn't realize that you would be on the throne on Judgement day.

The bottomline is - if anyone leaves the fold, they were never a christian in the first place.
That is simply not true.

The lost sheep?
The prodigal son?

well, the sheep was NEVER really in the fold, and the son was never REALLY the son of the Father.beanie spare me the drama OK?

Let's cut to the chase....

Are you satisfied that you are saved, your sin is forgiven and will spend eternity in heaven?

[beanieboy]

beanie spare me the drama OK?

Let's cut to the chase....

Are you satisfied that you are saved, your sin is forgiven and will spend eternity in heaven?

I'm not the one that stated that one can't lose salvation.

[Knight]

I'm not the one that stated that one can't lose salvation.beanie you can't lose something you never had.

[beanieboy]

beanie you can't lose something you never had.

Think what you want. Judge it the way you want.
If Jesus does come into our heart when asked, I had asked once.
If you believe in OSAS, then I am saved - no matter what you say.

I won't discuss whether I was once christian or not, and I ask God to forgive your arrogance to place judgement on me when you didn't know me, but also betraying the God you serve in saying that I was never saved, when I had asked with a clear heart.

I will ignore all future posts judging my sincerety of my beliefs, and being christian in my youth.

[Knight]

Think what you want. Judge it the way you want.
If Jesus does come into our heart when asked, I had asked once.
If you believe in OSAS, then I am saved - no matter what you say.It is beyond my control. It isn't me you will have to answer to.

I won't discuss whether I was once christian or notOK, so why do you keep bringing it up?

I will ignore all future posts judging my sincerety of my beliefs, and being christian in my youth.Fair enough.

[Knight]

Is that it beanie?

Do you have any other unanswered questions?

[beanieboy]

Is that it beanie?

Do you have any other unanswered questions?

I thought about this over the weekend, about why this thread was started.

When I said that my questions weren't answered, it was directed at people like Nineveh.
Since then, several other people have asked Nineveh questions, and I watched Nin dodge. They had the same problem that I do.

So, yes, you answer, but there are other people that don't, or won't, and I think either you don't see it, nor want to see it.

But as for questions, I'm unclear why it has to be a private thread.
I have questions, and welcome any poster to answer.

I was curious about your personal views of Calvinism, which I have never studied. You answer.

But you have to admit that there are thread where, when you really push someone for a yes/no answer, ie., do christians sin, they will tapdance around the definitive answer. There are others who will, of course, but there are others who never will.

Human nature, I suppose.

[Knight]

But as for questions, I'm unclear why it has to be a private thread.
I have questions, and welcome any poster to answer.I realize that you prefer a bit more participation, I think then it's easier for you to make the claim you are being mistreated or ignored.

I was curious about your personal views of Calvinism, which I have never studied. Calvinism places responsibility for every thought and every action for all of history on God and removes all responsibility from man and his rejection of God (Calvinists deny that they believe this but their theology affirms this notion).

Clearly that theology is in error.

[beanieboy]

I realize that you prefer a bit more participation, I think then it's easier for you to make the claim you are being mistreated or ignored.

Calvinism places responsibility for every thought and every action for all of history on God and removes all responsibility from man and his rejection of God (Calvinists deny that they believe this but their theology affirms this notion).

Clearly that theology is in error.


I don't agree with it either.
I doesn't make much sense.l

As for wanting to claim to be mistreated or ignored, I am targeted here a lot. I don't think you have directly said anything, have not asked called me a pile of filth or puke, etc, but you certainly allow it to happen without saying much at all. Personally, I find it troubling that there is more rebuking of the unbelievers, but rarely rebuking of the brethren of Christ, and some will even insist that they above being rebuked.

[Knight]

I don't agree with it either.
I doesn't make much sense.:up:

As for wanting to claim to be mistreated or ignored, I am targeted here a lot. I don't think you have directly said anything, have not asked called me a pile of filth or puke, etc, but you certainly allow it to happen without saying much at all. Personally, I find it troubling that there is more rebuking of the unbelievers, but rarely rebuking of the brethren of Christ, and some will even insist that they above being rebuked.beanie... the truth is you are in open opposition to God and are headed for hell.

Leviticus 18:22 ‘You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

A true friend wouldn't hide this truth from you.

[beanieboy]

:up:

beanie... the truth is you are in open opposition to God and are headed for hell.

Leviticus 18:22 ‘You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

A true friend wouldn't hide this truth from you.

You've already said this. I heard you the first time, I simply don't agree.

By the same token, I think there are many christians here who, through their abrasive behavior, push more people away from God than draw them toward him.

[Knight]

I think there are many christians here who, through their abrasive behavior, push more people away from God than draw them toward him.Do you believe that there is a god?

[beanieboy]

Um, wow. That's a good question.
Yes. But not the Christian God. Not one who sits there with a note pad, writing down the grape that I ate without paying at the supermarket.

I think that God is literally love. I believe that the main focus of Christ was love and forgiveness, not condemnation. I think that God presents himself wherever he wants, and that christians don't have a monopoly on him.

But God is more complicated than we think. There was a night when I asked God to reveal himself. I looked up into the night sky, and thought, God is like the sky, reaching as far from one side to the next, and going deeper than we have ever been. And that is simply the part that we can understand.

So, I began to call God "the Universe", to remind myself that God does not live in a church like a cage, but is everywhere, all the time, in all things. And then I saw God everywhere I looked.

[Knight]

So, I began to call God "the Universe", to remind myself that God does not live in a church like a cage, but is everywhere, all the time, in all things. And then I saw God everywhere I looked.Did you look in your toilet? Was your god there as well?

[beanieboy]

Did you look in your toilet? Was your god there as well?

Wow. Is that how your mind works? Potty humor?

Have you ever met anyone whose kidneys failed? Their kidneys no longer take out waste, so it begins to poison their body.
Do I think the process of elimination of waste is a good thing?
Certainly.
Did the Creator create it for a reason?
Yes.

I'm sorry that you don't see elimination of waste from the body as something to thank God for, and instead, only use it for mockery, or the lowest form of humor.

[Knight]

I'm sorry that you don't see elimination of waste from the body as something to thank God for, and instead, only use it for mockery, or the lowest form of humor.I am talking about the waste itself, do you see your god in the waste or what? (and this isn't meant to be humorous).

Beanie.... you said you see god in EVERYTHING.... I was just trying to comprehend that type of statement.

How about this....
When people hijack airplanes and fly them into crowded office buildings murdering thousands of people do you see your god in that?

[beanieboy]

I am talking about the waste itself, do you see your god in the waste or what? (and this isn't meant to be humorous).

Beanie.... you said you see god in EVERYTHING.... I was just trying to comprehend that type of statement.

How about this....
When people hijack airplanes and fly them into crowded office buildings murdering thousands of people do you see your god in that?

Do I see God in waste?
Sure.
What do we use to make our lawns green? Waste.
It's all part of the big picture. Mold helped us to make penicillin.
Compost - rotted plants - can be used as food.

Do you believe that man invented that, or did it come from the Creator?

I'm amazed that the body is so complicated. It fights disease by raising temperature. My nose runs to catch things and expel them. My eyes tear to wash out a piece of dirt. My stomach rejects food in the form of vomit, instead of letting me process the food that would otherwise poison my body. Don't you find that fascinating? Don't you appreciate that you don't eat a piece of bad chicken and die, but instead, you body fights it without you doing anything consciously?

The body tells you when to eat, when to rest, when it needs exercise, and if you eat healthy food, will crave exactly what it needs. Skin rejuvenates, and creates dust from what it casts off. It's amazing.

Did I see god in 9/11?
Yes. I see God who created people to make a choice, even when they are bad ones.
I see people who have taken a loving God (Allah) and do something so heinous and do it self righteously, and see the same of the attitude some on TOL take.
I saw people drawn together by 9/11, instead of split apart. That was God.
And when 9/11 happened, you seem to have this crystal clear moment where you see your pettiness that drove wedges between you and your neighbor seem like nothing more than foolishness, and understand where priorities should be. That's God.
God created Satan to offer us choice.
He just hopes that we follow him, instead of killing each other, and feeding Satan.
And sometimes, people kill in the name of God, because they have been fooled by Satan.

[Knight]

God created Satan to offer us choice.You believe in Satan???

Earlier I asked you if you believed in God and you stated that you did, yet added...But not the Christian GodHow can you believe in Satan yet not in the God that created Him?

[beanieboy]

You believe in Satan???

Earlier I asked you if you believed in God and you stated that you did, yet added...How can you believe in Satan yet not in the God that created Him?

I guess I said that for your benefit.

A buddhist man said, "I feel like I have two wolves fighting inside me, one good, and the other evil." The student said, "Who will win?" The man answered, "The one whom I feed."

I don't believe that there are good or evil people. We are all capable of both.
But I also believe that we have choices, and it isn't a red suited devil on our shoulder. It's us. We know better, and make a decision.

Sometimes, people get so convinced that they are right, that they will even kill in the name of God, as we have seen throughout the centuries with Christianity and other religions.

Do I see "the Creator" in sinful things people do? Yes. I see human nature, I see weakness. The God of the bible created day but also created night.

It is possible to see God in all things.

[beanieboy]

Did you see The Last Temptation of Christ?

There is a part, where Jesus is asked where God lives, above in heaven or where?

Jesus says that when he looks at everything, he sees God.
The person responds, "What?? You see God in a fly?"
And Jesus says, "Yes. The fly has wings that make him float. He helps things decay. So when I look at a fly, I see the reflection of God."

[Knight]

Did you see The Last Temptation of Christ?

There is a part, where Jesus is asked where God lives, above in heaven or where?

Jesus says that when he looks at everything, he sees God.
The person responds, "What?? You see God in a fly?"
And Jesus says, "Yes. The fly has wings that make him float. He helps things decay. So when I look at a fly, I see the reflection of God."Uh... I don't put much stock into godless hollywood crap. I don't see God in the toilet nor do I see Him in mindless Hollywood garbage.

[Knight]

Sometimes, people get so convinced that they are right, that they will even kill in the name of God, as we have seen throughout the centuries with Christianity and other religions. Is killing in the name of God wrong or right?

[beanieboy]

God is everywhere, and a part of all things.
He's a part of you as much as he is a part of me.

Personally, I would rather see God in the mosquito, who provides food for bats, than curse God for mosquitos, or think they are a curse.

Everything is of and from him. Everything is interconnected.

Unfortunately, many people like to see themselves separate from the world altogether, and so, disrespect it, polluting its waters, without worrying about the fish that we will eat, the water we will need to drink, or any of the ramifications that come with abusing our environment.

It's all connected.

[Knight]

God is everywhere, and a part of all things.
He's a part of you as much as he is a part of me.

Personally, I would rather see God in the mosquito, who provides food for bats, than curse God for mosquitos, or think they are a curse.

Everything is of and from him. Everything is interconnected.

Unfortunately, many people like to see themselves separate from the world altogether, and so, disrespect it, polluting its waters, without worrying about the fish that we will eat, the water we will need to drink, or any of the ramifications that come with abusing our environment.

It's all connected.Are you a prophet of this "god"?

Do you speak for him/her/it?

[beanieboy]

Is killing in the name of God wrong or right?

Buddhists believe that one should never harm a sentient being. Some even go so far as to avoid stepping on worms. While that seems extreme, if one could be mindful of worms, wouldn't they never dream of killing a human being?

I can't find anywhere in the NT where anyone calls for killing people, and I think that we have enough murder to know whether it is right or wrong.

One who kills in the name of God is a wolf dressed as a sheep, eating the rest of the herd.

It boggles the mind how many TOLers are focuses on killing others in the name of God far more than saving them and bringing them to their God. God didn't ask for them dead or alive.

[beanieboy]

Are you a prophet of this "god"?

Do you speak for him/her/it?

We all do.

"Out of the mouth of babes", you know?
God speaks through anyone he chooses, even his "enemies."

Everything that is said, I take to "god" and ask about it.
Sometimes it doesn't ring true, and other times, it is, and then it repeats from one person to the next in a weird kind of way, like the universe is conspiring to make a point. I'm always amazed when it happens.

A friend once told me that one shouldn't judge others on appearances. It was repeated in my African Dance Class by the instrutor in a story. Then I saw a commercial for a bank saying that one's character can't be judged by what can be shown on paper, and was illustrated by an overweight man entering a tango class and judged by the other dancers, until he started dancing, and was better than they were.

It's like that. God speaks wherever he feels like it, and is reflected wherever he chooses.

I have grown to doubt "coincidence."

[Knight]

I can't find anywhere in the NT where anyone calls for killing peopleYou can't????

Maybe your NT is missing most of the pages?

I can give you tons of examples.. here are a couple to get you started.

Matthew 18:6 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

[Knight]

It's like that. God speaks wherever he feels like it, and is reflected wherever he chooses.

I have grown to doubt "coincidence."So... you pretty much just make all of this up or what?

[beanieboy]

You can't????

Maybe your NT is missing most of the pages?

I can give you tons of examples.. here are a couple to get you started.

Matthew 18:6 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.


So, what do you think the bible is saying?
I think it is saying, "we all deserve God's wrath. Everyone of us."

But you are saying that we should put to death backbiters, haters of undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful, people who envy, people who covet (wish they had what their neighbor has), those who are disobedient to their parents, and gossips, and people who are sexually immoral?

Why not just kill everyone except yourself?

And is this the Good News? That you are going to execute the majority of people in the world?

[beanieboy]

So... you pretty much just make all of this up or what?

If one person says it, then you read it, then you hear it again, and then again, at what point do you have to realize that the coincidence is so overwhelming that something much more strong is going on?

I am much more open to the possibility, and so, God takes advantage of that.

There are others that God speaks through, (out of the mouth of babes), but because they have an idea of Closed Canon, and God only speaks through the bible, they bind God up in the book. God speaks when he wants, what he wants, and through whom. And when you learn to understand God's voice, you know when people are way off base.

But to limit God would be to limit myself, as well as being rather silly.

[beanieboy]

Matthew 18:6 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
[/b]

I believe this is condemning people for drawing others to sin or stumble, and explaining the seriousness of it.

[beanieboy]

Romans 1 also says this:

21Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. 22Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead. 23And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes.

There are many here who claim to know what God is like, and that God is a murderous tyrant, (human), when I think he is much more complicated than that.

Even you are quick to point out the murderous wrath of God in the NT.

Is that all God is to you? An executioner?
Jesus taught love and compassion and forgiveness, and didn't try to put himself in a governmental place to have authority to kill people right and left, which he could have.

He spent his love extending love, changing lives of the lost, exhalting the humble, and humbling the exhalted.

Jesus was very cool.

[beanieboy]

from www.whosoever.org
commentary about the Romans passage;

This passage has been used by some Christians to make an issue over how "unrighteous" and sinful homosexuals are. In fact, it has been used to support the view that AIDS is the "penalty of their error which was due." What is fascinating about this kind of application is that it is totally at odds with what, I believe, Paul was really saying. IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF ROMANS CHAPTER ONE YOU MUST READ ROMANS CHAPTERS ONE THROUGH THREE. The outline is as follows:

I. The Gospel is for EVERYONE, Jews and Gentiles. (1:16)

II. Why? Because God's wrath is against ALL unrighteousness. (verse 18).

II. The Gentiles need the Gospel. (1:28-32) The examples of their "uncleanness" include idolatry and homosexual acts which are either connected to or resulting from idolatry.

III. But the Jews are just as unrighteous as the Gentiles. (2:3)

IV. "All have sinned" and are "justified (made right with God) FREELY by God's grace (unearned love) through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." (3:23-24)

While Paul is certainly not favorable toward the homosexual acts that he is writing about it is interesting to note that Paul classifies them "unclean" which is not necessarily a "moral" precept. (According to the Holiness Code lobsters and shrimp are "unclean" also.) He may be pointing out that though the Jews are different than the Gentiles in that they are ritually "clean" (according to the Old Covenant) they are still just as much in need of the grace of the New Covenant.

Let's look at some of the verses in this section:

Verse 27b "And receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due". Is Paul here saying that those who committed homosexual acts were punished in some physical way...as in venereal disease? Or could "uncleanness," being cut off from the Old Hebrew Covenant, be the penalty of the Gentile's error?

28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to adebased mind, to do those things which are not fitting..." People often take this to mean one of the following things:

* Since homosexuals didn't retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind.
* Since the Gentiles were idolatrous God gave them over to a debased mind of homosexuality. However, I believe that Paul was saying the following:
* "Since the Gentiles did not retain God in their knowledge God gave them over to a debased mind. The debased mind is NOT homosexuality but a mind that is centered on unrighteousness, hence the listing of what the Gentile mind is full of in verse 29.
* 29-32 This list of "unrighteousness" is being applied to all Gentiles, not Gentiles that commit homosexual sex acts. It is the Gentiles "who are worthy of death." These verses are really just an exposition of verse 18.
* 26-27 Another interesting point to consider is that people often use verses 26-27 to prove that Paul used an argument from "nature" to prove that homosexual activity was wrong. However that kind of usage of the word "nature" is highly unlikely as Paul usually uses the word "nature" or "natural" to mean not what "Mother Nature" does but instead he means "the previously accepted common usage". Nature is not a great teacher about ethics and humans are nowhere called in scripture to emulate it. What is more, homosexual activity DOES go on in the animal world.

It must be remembered also that Paul was referring to homosexual ACTS, not homosexuals. AND NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HOMOSEXUAL ACTS PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT... NO ONE KNOWS THE BACKGROUND... We must ask ourselves "what type of homosexual acts was Paul talking about?" Was he talking exclusively about homosexual acts connected with idolatry? (Perhaps that was the only kind of homosexual activity he was familiar with.) Was he talking about pederasty? Was he talking about homosexual acts committed with slaves? Was he talking about people of heterosexual orientation committing homosexual acts? Just exactly what type of homosexual acts was he concerned with? Do people have the Right to just ASSUME that these verses were a blanket condemnation of homosexual sex in every context?

In my personal opinion Paul was referring to same sex sexual acts committed in idolatrous worship by people he regarded as heterosexual. Even the most conservative theologian can only give their opinion as to what type of same sex acts Paul was referring to. No one can state that God clearly condemns all homosexuality activity based upon these verses. It is just too vague.

As for me, based on the context of Paul's writing in Romans chapters 1-3 I choose to believe that God's New Covenant of grace embraces those who believe in Jesus; being a Jew doesn't make you better than a Gentile; being a heterosexual doesn't make you any better than a homosexual. Romans chapters one through three strike at the very heart of self-righteous pride. It is amazing that some Christians continue to lord their own sense of righteousness over gays and lesbians as if their heterosexual sex acts make them somehow better, or less in need of grace. We are all in need of grace and we ALL have that grace in Jesus Christ. [2]

Source: OCRT: Bible and Homosexuality

Source: Same Gender Sexual Behavior and the Scriptures
This paper is provided as a service of the Metropolitan Community Church of Topeka, authors Rev. Jonathan Loppnow and Rev. Paul C. Evans. It may be reproduced freely as long as the entire text is reproduced and unaltered, all attributions are left intact and it is not sold for profit or included in a for-profit publication. Copyright © Jan. 7, 1998

[Knight]

Jesus was very cool.Yet according to you He was tragically in error. :think:

beanie how could you consider someone "cool" that preached that all other religions were wrong (including yours) and only His was correct?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Acts 4:10 “let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.11 “This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Beanie you need to repent from your false gods and humble yourself before the only true God of the universe - His name is Jesus.

[beanieboy]

Yet according to you He was tragically in error. :think:

beanie how could you consider someone "cool" that preached that all other religions were wrong (including yours) and only His was correct?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Acts 4:10 “let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.11 “This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Beanie you need to repent from your false gods and humble yourself before the only true God of the universe - His name is Jesus.


Jesus said, "No one comes to the father but by me."
But when he said it, he wasn't dead yet.
So, I can only understand that unless one becomes like Christ, they will never find the Father.
1 John 4:7-8 says that he that loves is born of God and knows God.
But he that does not love does not know God.

There are members on this forum that not only hate, but they hate in the name of God and brag about it.

[Knight]

Jesus said, "No one comes to the father but by me."
But when he said it, he wasn't dead yet. Acts 4:10 “let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.11 “This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

[beanieboy]

Acts 4:10 “let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.11 “This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

If that is true, I will come to that conclusion. That's hopeful, isn't it?

[Knight]

If that is true, I will come to that conclusion. That's hopeful, isn't it?Huh? :confused:

[Knight]

OK... I think this has come to a close.

Beanie thanks for the time. I hope this thread was of some value for you.

[beanieboy]

It has. Thank you for your time.