Should women go to college?

[anna]

Hi everyone,

This question is for Lucky, but other Christians are welcome to post as well.

I've often wondered about my role as a woman in society. I know the scripture says women are helpmates and I have also learned in other books and from my own experienes that women are responders while men are the ones who initiate.

If any man or woman is to fulfill the basic roles that God had intended them to fill, it is only reasonable to say that education is (in itself) necessary to draw out the talents or gifts that God has given to each of us so that each person can serve others more effectively.

At this point I see no problem in women going to college since college would give some opportunity to learn some basic learning tools such as reading, writing, and mathematics. Of course as a public school student going to a public university, I am fully aware of the amount of bull (to be frank) that students have to learn in order to gain access to some classes that could be useful for basic skills. So I know that colleges don't really educate people but rather brainwash them, but I know that there is at least some things that could possibly be beneficial.

Just so you know. I am currently a Computer Science Major who is seriously thinking of changing her major, but can't see any possible alternative at this point because the Computer Science curriculum has more classes that could be useful in developing skills in Mathematics (my weak spot) and the sciences (which I find myself drawn to more so then Literature at this time). I guess I am confused because Computer Science is a field that primarily men go into and if I go into this field, I may find that I would possibly be more in competition with men rather then one who is a "helper". :think:

thanks

anna

[GuySmiley]

Hi everyone,

This question is for Lucky, but other Christians are welcome to post as well.

I've often wondered about my role as a woman in society. I know the scripture says women are helpmates and I have also learned in other books and from my own experienes that women are responders while men are the ones who initiate.

If any man or woman is to fulfill the basic roles that God had intended them to fill, it is only reasonable to say that education is (in itself) necessary to draw out the talents or gifts that God has given to each of us so that each person can serve others more effectively.

At this point I see no problem in women going to college since college would give some opportunity to learn some basic learning tools such as reading, writing, and mathematics. Of course as a public school student going to a public university, I am fully aware of the amount of bull (to be frank) that students have to learn in order to gain access to some classes that could be useful for basic skills. So I know that colleges don't really educate people but rather brainwash them, but I know that there is at least some things that could possibly be beneficial.

Just so you know. I am currently a Computer Science Major who is seriously thinking of changing her major, but can't see any possible alternative at this point because the Computer Science curriculum has more classes that could be useful in developing skills in Mathematics (my weak spot) and the sciences (which I find myself drawn to more so then Literature at this time). I guess I am confused because Computer Science is a field that primarily men go into and if I go into this field, I may find that I would possibly be more in competition with men rather then one who is a "helper". :think:

thanks

anna
There is nothing wrong with women having jobs. Jobs sometimes require higher education. If you are interested in a job that requires higher education, then go to college. No problem.

[kmoney]

What GuySmiley said. :thumb:

[PureX]

Women should go to "special" colleges where they learn how to please their men more fully. They should take classes like: "Obedience 101", "Accepting Male Domination And Superiority For Jesus Sake", and "Advanced Homaking". They should be thoroughly tested and scored so that their future husbands will know that his prospective bride's docility is bonsfide, and not just some female ploy cooked up by satan.

[anna]

Women should go to "special" colleges where they learn how to please their men more fully. They should take classes like: "Obedience 101", "Accepting Male Domination And Superiority For Jesus Sake", and "Advanced Homaking". They should be thoroughly tested and scored so that their future husbands will know that his prospective bride's docility is bonsfide, and not just some female ploy cooked up by satan.

:chuckle:
I think that some men do get to be ridiculus when they say that women shouldn't go to college, but I was curious to see what Lucky's reasons were. :think:

I don't plan on getting married any time soon, but if I did it wouldn't be to someone who thought so highly of himself that he was somehow God's gift to women. I know that there are men out there who believe the scriptures but don't use them to rule women with an iron fist. :Princess:

anna

[One Eyed Jack]

If math isn't your strong point, then computer science might not be the thing for you.

[anna]

There is nothing wrong with women having jobs. Jobs sometimes require higher education. If you are interested in a job that requires higher education, then go to college. No problem.

I agree. I live in the real world , so I know I need a job. I am just a women who is very detail oriented and analytical so I don't think I would fit in as well in jobs that are filled primarily by women. It's kinda wierd because I don't fit the stereotypical mold of a woman and there are alot of men who are easily threatened by women like me, so I try to soften up a little.

[anna]

If math isn't your strong point, then computer science might not be the thing for you.

See..that is what I am thinking too eventhough I have heard from people who write programs that math has nothing to do with it. I am beginning to think that those people who told me that were misinformed or are not as advanced in their programming skills. My programming professors tell me not to worry about the math and focus on the programming classes

But then again...alot of math majors are stuggling too with Calculus. The professors tell me that it takes a long time to understand proofs and yet we have less then half the time to understand at least the concepts. The math professors also tell me that alot of people avoid taking math because they are just too intimidated but who have the potential to learn the math because they didn't get the opportunity to learn it because the education system is pathetic.

[Lucky]

:noid:

[CRASH]

Women should go to "special" colleges where they learn how to please their men more fully. They should take classes like: "Obedience 101", "Accepting Male Domination And Superiority For Jesus Sake", and "Advanced Homaking". They should be thoroughly tested and scored so that their future husbands will know that his prospective bride's docility is bonsfide, and not just some female ploy cooked up by satan.

Typical :PureX:

[One Eyed Jack]

See..that is what I am thinking too eventhough I have heard from people who write programs that math has nothing to do with it.

I've been programming since I was 12, and believe me, math has everything to do with it. You're manipulating numbers -- that's what a computer does. Anyone who says math has nothing to do with it is simply being foolish.

I am beginning to think that those people who told me that were misinformed or are not as advanced in their programming skills. My programming professors tell me not to worry about the math and focus on the programming classes

Hey, if you like programming, then try to bone up on your math skills and stick with it. If you don't like it, find something else.

But then again...alot of math majors are stuggling too with Calculus. The professors tell me that it takes a long time to understand proofs and yet we have less then half the time to understand at least the concepts.

I dunno. Math has always come easy to me, so I can't really relate to that.

[CRASH]

No. Generally it is really a bad idea.

[anna]

:noid:
:confused:

[elohiym]

Women should go to "special" colleges where they learn how to please their men more fully. They should take classes like: "Obedience 101", "Accepting Male Domination And Superiority For Jesus Sake", and "Advanced Homaking". They should be thoroughly tested and scored so that their future husbands will know that his prospective bride's docility is bonsfide, and not just some female ploy cooked up by satan.And they should only be admitted to that college if they are virgins.

[CRASH]

I agree. I live in the real world , so I know I need a job. I am just a women who is very detail oriented and analytical so I don't think I would fit in as well in jobs that are filled primarily by women. It's kinda wierd because I don't fit the stereotypical mold of a woman and there are alot of men who are easily threatened by women like me, so I try to soften up a little.

Do you ever plan to get married and have children?

[hoosiermommy]

To give my womenly opinion on the topic.

I know first hand that you can indeed survive in this world without a college degree.
True, you might limit your job market.

There are some careers that will pay for your training at a specialized school. (ex: the nursing home I worked for would sponser some of the CNA's to become LPN's).

Having gone to college, I also know that it can be a danger zone for Christians that are week in their faith.

Also, from the non-feminist point of veiw, it seems that some women seem to put family life on hold so that they can justify their degree. They go to college, get their degree, then have to climb the corperate ladder. Then they get high enough on that corperate ladder that they don't want to lose their spot.

[anna]

I've been programming since I was 12, and believe me, math has everything to do with it. You're manipulating numbers -- that's what a computer does. Anyone who says math has nothing to do with it is simply being foolish.



Hey, if you like programming, then try to bone up on your math skills and stick with it. If you don't like it, find something else.



I dunno. Math has always come easy to me, so I can't really relate to that.

From what I know of math, the same process you go about solving word problems is the same or similar process you would go about writing programs. It's true, you are manipulating numbers and yet the way you do it is not all math but rather you are using some math with the logic of the particular programming language so I know that strong communication skills is a must.
I also read how strong reading and writings skills is connected to math skills. It seems reasonable to think this since math and communications involving becoming familiar with symbols and the relationships the symbols have with each other.

Yeah..I bought a Precalculus book and when I read that book, it doesn't look as greek as when I open my Calculus book so I know I can't be completely lost.

Being able to grasp the meaning of words became a strength once I overcame a learning disability I had as a child. I think in this case it will take some time to figure out if I am any good at math since I seem to be having problems concentrating. Right now, I think the reason I could follow and appreciate the lectures in my Biology class easier then I could follow math is because of a lack of experience, but I don't know for certain at this time.

[Lucky]

If the woman wants to become a successful wife and mother, then going to college is not a good idea. If she wants take on Adam's curse, then college will most likely be quite beneficial.

[anna]

Do you ever plan to get married and have children?

I know that marrage in the future would be a possibility, but right now I know that it isn't.
:Princess:

I have learned not to make many assumptions, but I try to make plans that would be both consistent to my understanding of the scriptures. I have ideals and principles but I try to be practical in the applying these ideals. I read the scriptures and see the way things should be; I live in the world and I see the way things are, but I try to apply what I read.

[The Berean]

anna,

What other potential majors are you considering switching to?

[One Eyed Jack]

How about psychology? If I weren't a computer geek, that's what I would have gotten into. Then again, I changed majors several times and dropped out, so who am I to be giving advice?

[anna]

To give my womenly opinion on the topic.

I know first hand that you can indeed survive in this world without a college degree.
True, you might limit your job market.

There are some careers that will pay for your training at a specialized school. (ex: the nursing home I worked for would sponser some of the CNA's to become LPN's).

Having gone to college, I also know that it can be a danger zone for Christians that are week in their faith.

Also, from the non-feminist point of veiw, it seems that some women seem to put family life on hold so that they can justify their degree. They go to college, get their degree, then have to climb the corperate ladder. Then they get high enough on that corperate ladder that they don't want to lose their spot.

I have heard from people that the blue-collared people are the ones who get the jobs.

I heard this too, but you have to know what you want to do or you are stuck doing that because you have to pay the bills.

That is most certainly true. It takes diligence to keep one's faith in college. I have never had doubts about salvation, but I know how much influence the destructive teachings taught as scientifc or scholarly have on the individual thought lives of christians. The scriptures warn us against myths and old fables (I remember reading Medea and realized that studing it along with other greek literature can encourage strife)

That's true in some cases, but I have no desire to make a name for myself. I just want to be able to pay the bills and afford decent health care.

[CRASH]

I know that marrage in the future would be a possibility, but right now I know that it isn't.
:Princess:

I have learned not to make many assumptions, but I try to make plans that would be both consistent to my understanding of the scriptures. I have ideals and principles but I try to be practical in the applying these ideals. I read the scriptures and see the way things should be; I live in the world and I see the way things are, but I try to apply what I read.

I do not condemn you for going to college. It's just that it often is not wise. It is doubtful that any of my children will go to college and especially my girls. Why is marriage not a possibility now? Are you too young?

I have to agree with Lucky on this. Are you a big fan of rush hour traffic and handing over your kids to some minimum wage earner who will get to hear your baby utter her first "Mommy"?

[anna]

anna,

What other potential majors are considering switching to?

Teaching is a possible major, but I don't know since I don't think I could be effective in a public school and I don't know what subject I want to teach, but if the government made it illegal someday for people to homeschool then I would be a licensed teacher and could teach my children or someone elses childern.
I was a Music Ed major at one time, but I also want to instill in people the importance of reading and writing because I see alot of college students struggle more then me because they lack basic skills.

I would also consider Technical Writing since I can understand things and break them down on a conceptual level. I would consider editing or writing textbooks if I knew if I had the freedom to write or edit textbooks that would support the Christian world view instead of the garbage I have to read.

[anna]

I do not condemn you for going to college. It's just that it often is not wise. It is doubtful that any of my children will go to college and especially my girls. Why is marriage not a possibility now? Are you too young?

I have to agree with Lucky on this. Are you a big fan of rush hour traffic and handing over your kids to some minimum wage earner who will get to hear your baby utter her first "Mommy"?

No, I am not too young(I'm 26), but I have many issues I have to work out before I could be a good wife and mother.

I am not a big fan of giving over my childern to anyone who didn't believe in God. I would want to stay home and teach my children myself, but I haven't fully developed as a human being eventhough I have a much more solid foundation in my faith then most Christian college students.
:angel:

[One Eyed Jack]

When is one ever fully developed as a human being? If you're waiting for that, you might end up waiting forever.

[avatar382]

Anna how far are you in your Computer Science curriculum? There are many areas of study within comp sci, and some are more math intensive than others.

Regardless, any University program in computer science is going to be heavy on the math, particularly discrete math. Not quite the same as high school or college algebra/pre-calc, etc.

Good luck with your studies. There is a lot of opportunity for women in Computer Science. I love to see women in the sciences.

If you have any specific questions about comp sci, feel free to ask, I have a bachelor's degree in it and am employed as a php programmer.

[anna]

I do not condemn you for going to college. It's just that it often is not wise. It is doubtful that any of my children will go to college and especially my girls. Why is marriage not a possibility now? Are you too young?

I have to agree with Lucky on this. Are you a big fan of rush hour traffic and handing over your kids to some minimum wage earner who will get to hear your baby utter her first "Mommy"?


Hi Crash,

What kind of education would your children have and what would they do? How will they use their gifts? :angel:

[One Eyed Jack]

Hopefully, they will use them wisely. Personally, I'd be more concerned about my own dilemma.

[erinmarie]

No, I am not too young(I'm 26), but I have many issues I have to work out before I could be a good wife and mother.

I am not a big fan of giving over my childern to anyone who didn't believe in God. I would want to stay home and teach my children myself, but I haven't fully developed as a human being eventhough I have a much more solid foundation in my faith then most Christian college students.
:angel:

I think though this might be okay for you, alot of christian women are trapped by this mentality. They get a good job, get married, and buy a home, two cars, and get used to living the two income lifestyle, and then by the time the children come it's pretty hard to give all that up. I know lots of couples that have fallen down this pit, it's near to impossible to climb out of.

Now, I do believe that college can be good for women. I know a few couples that the wife is college educated and a stay at home mom, and Thank God that they didn't fall into the two income pit. ;)
The college degree helps the woman better herself and have a good background for homeschooling (although not neccesary).
Also, if something might happen to the husband, there would be the security of a college degree and more income opportunities for the mother.

[anna]

When is one ever fully developed as a human being? If you're waiting for that, you might end up waiting forever.

:chuckle: :think: I guess what I mean to say is that I don't know what I want. If I ever decided to get married then I would have to know when I meet someone that he and I not only share the same beliefs and values, but also he and I would have a common goal or direction. It's important for me to know that if I marry that I could actually share a life with someone and not just be only ships passing in the night.

[CRASH]

No, I am not too young(I'm 26), but I have many issues I have to work out before I could be a good wife and mother.

I am not a big fan of giving over my childern to anyone who didn't believe in God. I would want to stay home and teach my children myself, but I haven't fully developed as a human being eventhough I have a much more solid foundation in my faith then most Christian college students.
:angel:

Like what? Who doesn't have issues? Get it worked out today. Go to a good church - there are guys there who need a loving Christian wife now. Heck, some guy might be able to help you solve those problems if you can be humble. Be strong in who you are in Christ!

[Sozo]

Women should be workers at home. If it takes an education of some sort to further that position and be more successful at it, then so be it.

[Christine]

I believe that believers should be able to support themselves. If you're married, you're husband can support you and the family. However, if you're single, you have to have some way of supporting yourself. If you have to go to college to be able to support yourself, then so be it. I'm recently graduated and attending college, something I never thought I would do.

[anna]

Anna how far are you in your Computer Science curriculum? There are many areas of study within comp sci, and some are more math intensive than others.

Regardless, any University program in computer science is going to be heavy on the math, particularly discrete math. Not quite the same as high school or college algebra/pre-calc, etc.

Good luck with your studies. There is a lot of opportunity for women in Computer Science. I love to see women in the sciences.

If you have any specific questions about comp sci, feel free to ask, I have a bachelor's degree in it and am employed as a php programmer.

Hi avatar382, :wave:

I am not very far in my actual computer science classes, but since my credits transfered from a different college(different major too) and I took some general core classes in the curriculum, I am an upperclass student. I was taking Calculus and the second computer science class (programming in Java).

I am considered to be your typical user(at best) who hasn't learned how to use all the programs on my computer, but I learn fairly quickly and I know that when you write programs, you are interacting with the computer at a lower level, so it doesn't seem crucial that I be a whiz at using applications software, but I am sure it helps in designing a program that is more user friendly.

What I like about Computer Science is that it is very black and white. It is either off or on there is no in between. Sometiems I like things to be simple and make sence eventhough human beings are too complex to grasp simple things. When I get frustrated at the computer I know that I am frustrated with myself and that is comforting because it is easier to figure out how to solve the problem or write the code. There is no messenger, message, and recipient of message so the only person I need to be patient with is my self. ;) Of course sometimes I like helping people eventhough it can be very stressful trying to communicate with them.

[anna]

I believe that believers should be able to support themselves. If you're married, you're husband can support you and the family. However, if you're single, you have to have some way of supporting yourself. If you have to go to college to be able to support yourself, then so be it. I'm recently graduated and attending college, something I never thought I would do.

I think so too eventhough we have to be very diligent and not let the college life influence us. :thumb:

[CRASH]

Hi Crash,

What kind of education would your children have and what would they do? How will they use their gifts? :angel:

Research indicates that there is no correlation between level of education of the parents and academic success of homeschool children. What is required is at least one loving parent.



My boys will apprentice at whatever career they choose or go into business. If they have to go to college to follow their dreams - like to become a doctor, they will pay their own way.



Colleges in general, are moral sinkholes and financial sinkholes.



Colleges are almost obsolete. Ever heard of Google? Virtually all known information is at our fingertips now. I know tons of people who do not have degrees but are successful (honest and provide for their families) and there are lots of burger flippers with college degrees!



My kids are homeschooled. They know how to think. We visit college campuses and debate college students on abortion, homosexuality and if there a God. My little kids pin the big smart philosophical college students every time. Talk about an education. When some idiot starts spouting the f word because he lost the debate, my kids take note of the evil residing in man and the broken thinking they see all around them at the college campus!



My girls will marry Christian men and be loving wives who homeschool their kids! They will have arranged marriages.

[anna]

Like what? Who doesn't have issues? Get it worked out today. Go to a good church - there are guys there who need a loving Christian wife now. Heck, some guy might be able to help you solve those problems if you can be humble. Be strong in who you are in Christ!

I can understand your frustration, every church I go I find young men and sometimes their mothers who are looking for marrage, but I know enough about my own walk to know that now is not the time. It is better to be patient and let God work on my heart and mind then to insist that I act on some impulse to avoid being alone.

[Shalom]

Women should do whatever they want to do. If they dont want to be housewives then they shouldnt. If they want to go to college and become pediatricians they should. If they want to get married and have ten children they should. If they get married and dont want children then they shouldnt have them. There is nothing wrong with openly admitting that you dont really know or you are not sure if your ready for marriage. Jumping into marriage and having babies isnt the smartest move either. There are many factors that play into these desicions and choices. Bottom line there is nothing wrong with women who have careers, your kids dont have to get handed over to someone "evil" while you work, and if you dont even want to have kids or ever get married then thats okay too. On the other hand being married and a stay at home Mom is a wonderful experience if it works for you and your husband.

[Christine]

I think so too eventhough we have to be very diligent and not let the college life influence us. :thumb:
I believe that if one is truly a grounded believer there is little chance of that happening. When I hear of such incidents, I wonder of the college student was truly a believer or just saying so to placate Dad and Mom. When freed from "Mama's apron strings" for the first time, their true colors show.

[anna]

Research indicates that there is no correlation between level of education of the parents and academic success of homeschool children. What is required is at least one loving parent.



My boys will apprentice at whatever career they choose or go into business. If they have to go to college to follow their dreams - like to become a doctor, they will pay their own way.



Colleges in general, are moral sinkholes and financial sinkholes.



Colleges are almost obsolete. Ever heard of Google? Virtually all known information is at our fingertips now. I know tons of people who do not have degrees but are successful (honest and provide for their families) and there are lots of burger flippers with college degrees!



My kids are homeschooled. They know how to think. We visit college campuses and debate college students on abortion, homosexuality and if there a God. My little kids pin the big smart philosophical college students every time. Talk about an education. When some idiot starts spouting the f word because he lost the debate, my kids take note of the evil residing in man and the broken thinking they see all around them at the college campus!



My girls will marry Christian men and be loving wives who homeschool their kids! They will have arranged marriages.

Cool...

I agree with you. I think all you need is a parent who loves their children and the rest will take care of itself. I have read studies that claim that teachers who get degrees in higher education actually have students who test lower. This doesn't suprise me. I have had teachers who couldn't even write me a recomendation letter because their basic skills were not very good and I have been looking over the curriculum at different colleges for teaching programs and much of it is just a waste of time. This is why if I am going to college then I must try to find a curriculum that has more emphasis on math and science and foreign languages rather then classes like psychology, sociology, etc...

[CRASH]

I can understand your frustration, every church I go I find young men and sometimes their mothers who are looking for marrage, but I know enough about my own walk to know that now is not the time. It is better to be patient and let God work on my heart and mind then to insist that I act on some impulse to avoid being alone.

I'm not frustrated. I want the best for you!

[anna]

I believe that if one is truly a grounded believer there is little chance of that happening. When I hear of such incidents, I wonder of the college student was truly a believer or just saying so to placate Dad and Mom. When freed from "Mama's apron strings" for the first time, their true colors show.

I think it is true that true believers will stick to their guns, but even the true believers waste alot of time fighting battles in their head(some battles are necessary for spiritual growth, though) then learning knowledge that will open their hearts and minds and give them the true joy of learning. When I first became a Christian, I just was in awe and wanted to know more about everything because I knew even then that true knowledge brings me closer to God.

[Shalom]

I believe that if one is truly a grounded believer there is little chance of that happening. When I hear of such incidents, I wonder of the college student was truly a believer or just saying so to placate Dad and Mom. When freed from "Mama's apron strings" for the first time, their true colors show.


I must admit that I will be very picky about the whole where and for what my kids would be going to college. My decisions would have to be based on a lot of different things as far as where and why my kids would be going to college. I also wouldnt really care at all if my kids didnt ever go to college. I would want what is best for them.

I know of a lot of different situations that people I know choose and some were great and some didnt work at all. I also know a lot of girls who went to college and got a degree then got married had kids and never used it, so it was a waste. It all just depends on what happens or what your plans are.

[anna]

I'm not frustrated. I want the best for you!

Aww... ;)

It is going to take time. You can't hurry progress, but I appreciate the sentiment and the exhortation :angel:

[anna]

I must admit that I will be very picky about the whole where and for what my kids would be going to college. My decisions would have to be based on a lot of different things as far as where and why my kids would be going to college. I also wouldnt really care at all if my kids didnt ever go to college. I would want what is best for them.

I know of a lot of different situations that people I know choose and some were great and some didnt work at all. I also know a lot of girls who went to college and got a degree then got married had kids and never used it, so it was a waste. It all just depends on what happens or what your plans are.

It must be tough being a parent, but I don't think that the idea of college is a complete waste even for those who never use their degree to pursue a career. If you try to take advantage of what little there is to teach basic skills then it isn't a complete loss. I think you have to try to make the most out of what you have to work with and doing that will be a reward unto itself. Sometimes you can look at what seems to be time that was spent going nowhere and still find something useful about it.

[PureX]

And they should only be admitted to that college if they are virgins.Of course. They must be tested, and the one's that aren't virgins get sent to that other college where they learn to be professional prostitutes. Because in the bible, there are only virgins and whores.

[Sozo]

Of course. They must be tested, and the one's that aren't virgins get sent to that other college where they learn to be professional prostitutes.


Sound like No Worries may have found his calling!

[anna]

Of course. They must be tested, and the one's that aren't virgins get sent to that other college where they learn to be professional prostitutes. Because in the bible, there are only virgins and whores.

:chuckle: :think: That is true; if a woman sleeps with a man she is not married to then she is a whore, and the man who sleeps with a whore is not really a man but a male who lacks self control and is not qualified to be a good leader in his own home or in the church.

[anna]

If the woman wants to become a successful wife and mother, then going to college is not a good idea. If she wants take on Adam's curse, then college will most likely be quite beneficial.

What would you suggest for women who need to get a job to pay bills while possibly considering marrage in the future?

[Christine]

I must admit that I will be very picky about the whole where and for what my kids would be going to college. My decisions would have to be based on a lot of different things as far as where and why my kids would be going to college. I also wouldnt really care at all if my kids didnt ever go to college. I would want what is best for them.
My parents didn't really care if my sister or I went to college. However, I want to go into nursing, where it's pretty hard to get a job without college. My sister is unsure of what she'll do, but hasn't ruled out anything. :)

[CRASH]

What would you suggest for women who need to get a job to pay bills while possibly considering marrage in the future?
Get married.:wave:

[anna]

Women should do whatever they want to do. If they dont want to be housewives then they shouldnt. If they want to go to college and become pediatricians they should. If they want to get married and have ten children they should. If they get married and dont want children then they shouldnt have them. There is nothing wrong with openly admitting that you dont really know or you are not sure if your ready for marriage. Jumping into marriage and having babies isnt the smartest move either. There are many factors that play into these desicions and choices. Bottom line there is nothing wrong with women who have careers, your kids dont have to get handed over to someone "evil" while you work, and if you dont even want to have kids or ever get married then thats okay too. On the other hand being married and a stay at home Mom is a wonderful experience if it works for you and your husband.

This is why I have to decide what I want first and then figure out how to go about doing it.
Many people get married and don't have a clue what they are getting into. They just want someone they can play house with, but when the chips fall down (and they do if you are human and live on planet Earth) they crumble because their marrage was not based on equal submission to the lord and love and service to one another.

[anna]

Get married.:wave:

You're funny :chuckle:

[Shalom]

My parents didn't really care if my sister or I went to college. However, I want to go into nursing, where it's pretty hard to get a job without college. My sister is unsure of what she'll do, but hasn't ruled out anything. :)

That is how I was also raised. I too was going to go into nursing untill my Dad made the desicion to want to start to retire at my families electrical contracting business. I learned to estimate houses when I was a junior in high school and I used to help my Dad out by doing some houses on occasion. When he wanted to start to retire the desicion was made in my family for me to take over the residential estimating for our business and now I am doing so. My kids go to private school and are picked up by my Mom at 3:15pm and she has them till 5:00pm. They love getting to spend time with their Grandma and I love to work with and help out my brothers Vaquero45 and Guysmilie who are now taking over the business so it all works out for my situation.

[Freak]

Hi everyone,

This question is for Lucky, but other Christians are welcome to post as well.

I've often wondered about my role as a woman in society. I know the scripture says women are helpmates and I have also learned in other books and from my own experienes that women are responders while men are the ones who initiate.


annaGod's Word gives us insight into this:

10 A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.

11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.

12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.

13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.

14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.

15 She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.

16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.

18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.

19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.

20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.

21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.

22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.

23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.

25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.

26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.

27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.

28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:

29 "Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all."

30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.

31 Give her the reward she has earned,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

[anna]

My parents didn't really care if my sister or I went to college. However, I want to go into nursing, where it's pretty hard to get a job without college. My sister is unsure of what she'll do, but hasn't ruled out anything. :)

My mother was a nurse and she told me that you have to go to college for that, but when she got her license she didn't have to have a 4yr degree. I know there are some jobs in healthcare that don't require 4yr degrees but it doesn't look like they pay well. I think if you're going to spend any lengthy period of time in any school, you might as well get a job that will pay a decent salary so you can afford decent healthcare.

[anna]

God's Word gives us insight into this:

10 A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.

11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.

12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.

13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.

14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.

15 She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.

16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.

18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.

19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.

20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.

21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.

22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.

23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.

25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.

26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.

27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.

28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:

29 "Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all."

30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.

31 Give her the reward she has earned,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

Hi Freak :wave:
Proverbs is my favorite book

[Freak]

[color=black][size=2]Colleges in general, are moral sinkholes and financial sinkholes.



Colleges are almost obsolete. Ever heard of Google? Virtually all known information is at our fingertips now. I know tons of people who do not have degrees but are successful (honest and provide for their families) and there are lots of burger flippers with college degrees!


My girls will marry Christian men and be loving wives who homeschool their kids! They will have arranged marriages.All great points and true too!

[Shalom]

This is why I have to decide what I want first and then figure out how to go about doing it.
Many people get married and don't have a clue what they are getting into. They just want someone they can play house with, but when the chips fall down (and they do if you are human and live on planet Earth) they crumble because their marrage was not based on equal submission to the lord and love and service to one another.

This is so true which is why you must choose your mate wisely.

I got married when I was barely 20 and had my first baby girl when I was barley 21. I'm 29 now and my friends are just now getting married. My husband and I always say thats okay that way our kids can be their baby sitters and ours can earn some extra money. ;)
Marriage can be as difficult as you want to make it, that is what my husband and I have noticed. We watch our friends fight over some of the most piddley things, and some of my girlfriends are the most high-maintenence chicks :chuckle: It is rather entertaining sometimes though.

[Freak]

Hi friend!Hi Freak :wave:
Proverbs is my favorite bookLook at verse 16: She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

A righteous woman can work outside the home but never at the cost of losing ones family. My wife works at home 4 days out of the 5 days a work week. This leaves alot of time for family!

[Shalom]

My mother was a nurse and she told me that you have to go to college for that, but when she got her license she didn't have to have a 4yr degree. I know there are some jobs in healthcare that don't require 4yr degrees but it doesn't look like they pay well. I think if you're going to spend any lengthy period of time in any school, you might as well get a job that will pay a decent salary so you can afford decent healthcare.

You can get your nursing degree in two years if you can meet all the pre-requisite class requirements I think.

[anna]

Hi friend!Look at verse 16: She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

A righteous woman can work outside the home but never at the cost of losing ones family. My wife works at home 4 days out of the 5 days a work week. This leaves alot of time for family!

That's true , if you choose a career that will allow you to be more at home. If I choose the computer science route, I may be able to do work on the side and in the convience of my own home. If I was a teacher, I would have summers off, but during the year it would be difficult for me to devote time and attention to my family(my sister is a teacher and tells me whats involved with her job) and I would have to try to teach in a private Christian school.

[anna]

You can get your nursing degree in two years if you can meet all the pre-requisite class requirements I think.

I would have to check into that. My mother was an nurse anesthiatist(don't know how to spell it, but basically she put people to sleep). One good thing about nursing would be to work will doctors who specialize in integrative medicine. I don't know much about this branch of medicine, but from the looks of it, it sounds like something that would be more helpful in teaching people to live healthier lifestyles instead of telling them to pop pills all of the time.

[CRASH]

All great points and true too!

Welcome back Freak-a-zoid.

:CRASH:

[anna]

I think though this might be okay for you, alot of christian women are trapped by this mentality. They get a good job, get married, and buy a home, two cars, and get used to living the two income lifestyle, and then by the time the children come it's pretty hard to give all that up. I know lots of couples that have fallen down this pit, it's near to impossible to climb out of.

Now, I do believe that college can be good for women. I know a few couples that the wife is college educated and a stay at home mom, and Thank God that they didn't fall into the two income pit. ;)
The college degree helps the woman better herself and have a good background for homeschooling (although not neccesary).
Also, if something might happen to the husband, there would be the security of a college degree and more income opportunities for the mother.

Hi erinmarie,
I think it is important for me to get a degree or some kind of education so that I can get a job because I think it is the right thing to do for me. Not only would I be able to support myself, but if I got married and my husband couldn't work or left me then I would be able to support the family.

[CRASH]

Hi erinmarie,
I think it is important for me to get a degree or some kind of education so that I can get a job because I think it is the right thing to do for me. Not only would I be able to support myself, but if I got married and my husband couldn't work or left me then I would be able to support the family.

Or if your husband left you could just get married again. Not many husbands can't work and a degree will not increase your chances much to get a job. Sorry to be such a party pooper on your big plans but planning your life around marrying a guy who will leave you or soon after the honeymoon become obsolete economically seems pretty crazy to me.

[CRASH]

Anna-

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In Titus 2 where God commands the aged women to teach the younger women, I have obeyed and given you my very best - 24 chapters, 291 pages, from meal planning to sex, including letters from my readers, recounting counseling sessions, wisdom gleaned from my own daughters, my very own personal experience and, of course, the Word of God (524 Scripture references).

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[No Worries]

I recommend 'The Female Eunuch' by Germaine Greer.



If Germaine sees this thread, duck and cover.
Duck And Cover.

[Christine]

My mother was a nurse and she told me that you have to go to college for that, but when she got her license she didn't have to have a 4yr degree. I know there are some jobs in healthcare that don't require 4yr degrees but it doesn't look like they pay well. I think if you're going to spend any lengthy period of time in any school, you might as well get a job that will pay a decent salary so you can afford decent healthcare.
That's very true. While I'm just working on pre-nursing courses right now, I'll probably enroll in a diploma program and have just as many job opportunities as someone with a 4 year degree in nursing. However, since I want to be a nurse-midwife, eventually I'll have to get a 4 year, but this way, I won't have to go into debt to get it. :D

[Christine]

That is how I was also raised. I too was going to go into nursing untill my Dad made the desicion to want to start to retire at my families electrical contracting business. I learned to estimate houses when I was a junior in high school and I used to help my Dad out by doing some houses on occasion. When he wanted to start to retire the desicion was made in my family for me to take over the residential estimating for our business and now I am doing so. My kids go to private school and are picked up by my Mom at 3:15pm and she has them till 5:00pm. They love getting to spend time with their Grandma and I love to work with and help out my brothers Vaquero45 and Guysmilie who are now taking over the business so it all works out for my situation.
It's great that you had a family business to work at!

[Freak]

That's true , if you choose a career that will allow you to be more at home. If I choose the computer science route, I may be able to do work on the side and in the convience of my own home. .My wife works in the computer industry & is able to work at home 4 days a week. The day she is out of the home, it's a short day, perhaps 5 hours. Not bad & alot of time for the family!

[OlDove]

Should women go to college?

YES!!!!!!!!

[anna]

Or if your husband left you could just get married again. Not many husbands can't work and a degree will not increase your chances much to get a job. Sorry to be such a party pooper on your big plans but planning your life around marrying a guy who will leave you or soon after the honeymoon become obsolete economically seems pretty crazy to me.

What would happen between divorcing one husband and marrying another (assuming that this is possible)?" Where would the children and I get the financial resources to exist.

True most men have to work, but not many people who work have good health benefits.

I don't plan on anything, I just don't make that many assumptions.

It only seems crazy to you because you don't have the ability to understand what life is like for other people. With most christians I talk with, I find that they have a difficult time stepping outside of their own world of expectations. They have never been in the circumstances I have encountered but still they give simple pat answers because they make too many assumptions and don't have much patience for those who see things a different way. They want to solve the problem now and they want the answers to everything now which is why they spend so much money on books that tell them what to think and do instead of focusing more meditating on the Word of God and applying what they know to the particular situation they are in.

I am not against reading other books, (I will check out the ones mentioned above), but I don't feel the urgent need to have somebody personally (or indirectly thru some book) to
constantly be standing over my shoulder telling me "now you should do such and such" and "you should think so and so". That isn't the way I work. I read the Bible and some other books, go to church, fellowship with other christians,talk to other people, and I go and have quiet time where I actually think things out for myself without catering to the voices that tell me to do otherwise.

[anna]

My wife works in the computer industry & is able to work at home 4 days a week. The day she is out of the home, it's a short day, perhaps 5 hours. Not bad & alot of time for the family!
Cool..what specifically does she do ..if you don't mind my asking. Computer Science is such a broad field and I am a novice, but I enjoy things that challenge me to find out what my gifts and limitations are. :)

[anna]

That's very true. While I'm just working on pre-nursing courses right now, I'll probably enroll in a diploma program and have just as many job opportunities as someone with a 4 year degree in nursing. However, since I want to be a nurse-midwife, eventually I'll have to get a 4 year, but this way, I won't have to go into debt to get it. :D
I see.. you are step stoning to your career. That's neat, now if I can figure out what I want then I could do that too, take classes that will get me a job so that I can afford or get payed to take other classes to get where I want to get.

Nurse-midwife..that sounds neat. There are so many things about healthcare that I don't know. I am just now begining to learn about how to deal with insurance companies, so it gives me an idea of how to make practical plans. It's expensive to get quality healthcare so I want to know what I can expect to spend on insurance and out of pocket expenses. Of course, this depends on your own individual set of health concerns. :)

[Freak]

Cool..what specifically does she do ..if you don't mind my asking. Computer Science is such a broad field and I am a novice, but I enjoy things that challenge me to find out what my gifts and limitations are. :)She is a systems admin. I would encourage you to get some of the basic certifications and that may assist you in locating a good job.

[anna]

She is a systems admin. I would encourage you to get some of the basic certifications and that may assit you in locating good job.

thanks, I'll look into it further. One of my sisters is in the IT business and has her own marketing business, so I will ask her what specific certifications are the most marketable at this time.

[CRASH]

What would happen between divorcing one husband and marrying another (assuming that this is possible)?" Where would the children and I get the financial resources to exist.

True most men have to work, but not many people who work have good health benefits.

I don't plan on anything, I just don't make that many assumptions.

It only seems crazy to you because you don't have the ability to understand what life is like for other people. With most christians I talk with, I find that they have a difficult time stepping outside of their own world of expectations. They have never been in the circumstances I have encountered but still they give simple pat answers because they make too many assumptions and don't have much patience for those who see things a different way. They want to solve the problem now and they want the answers to everything now which is why they spend so much money on books that tell them what to think and do instead of focusing more meditating on the Word of God and applying what they know to the particular situation they are in.

I am not against reading other books, (I will check out the ones mentioned above), but I don't feel the urgent need to have somebody personally (or indirectly thru some book) to
constantly be standing over my shoulder telling me "now you should do such and such" and "you should think so and so". That isn't the way I work. I read the Bible and some other books, go to church, fellowship with other christians,talk to other people, and I go and have quiet time where I actually think things out for myself without catering to the voices that tell me to do otherwise.

Anna-
I think I do have some idea of what life can be like for others. I've lived 43 years and survived some pretty extreme experiences including extreme poverty, constant physical abuse, divorced parents, drug addiction and public school! My life has changed forever because of what Jesus has done for me and I truley live the abundant life in every way now! 18 years of strong marriage, 5 great children, basic needs met. I try to see things the way I think God sees them - very black and white - like the Bible. I am only trying to encourage you. Take it or leave it.

The Bible is where you get the answers to life. And God gave teachers to the body so I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at a teachers in depth study on a certain subject and lining it up with God's word. I am sorry if you thought I was calling you crazy. I wasn't. This is just an imperfect method of communication. I think your way of doing things is fine. relax. Just trying to be helpful.:D

[anna]

Anna-
I think I do have some idea of what life can be like for others. I've lived 43 years and survived some pretty extreme experiences including extreme poverty, constant physical abuse, divorced parents, drug addiction and public school! My life has changed forever because of what Jesus has done for me and I truley live the abundant life in every way now! 18 years of strong marriage, 5 great children, basic needs met. I try to see things the way I think God sees them - very black and white - like the Bible. I am only trying to encourage you. Take it or leave it.

The Bible is where you get the answers to life. And God gave teachers to the body so I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at a teachers in depth study on a certain subject and lining it up with God's word. I am sorry if you thought I was calling you crazy. I wasn't. This is just an imperfect method of communication. I think your way of doing things is fine. relax. Just trying to be helpful.:D

I have met many people who have lived longer than me and have been through alot, but still lacked the patience to listen and try to understand what life is like for other people.
They think that because of their age and experience, that they are experts and that younger people or younger christians are simpletons.

I too, like to see things as God would see them. I tend to be very black and white about things, but I know that while God expects us to follow him, he knows that the path to maturity is not a quick easy fix.

I share the details of my life with you and others in the hope that while you may have more knowledge of the bible and more experience in living, you will realize the ever-growing need to be patient and better listeners so that when you deal with someone who is younger or younger in the faith, you will know how to keep the lines of communication open. Our attitudes influence our thoughts and our thoughts influence our words.

true, it is difficult to communicate on the internet, but the internet gives us the opportunity to think more before we speak and it helps us see our attitudes reflected in the words we speak. :)

[anna]

I have read the except on the book "Created to be his help meet" It sounds like a book for people who have already chosen someone in particular to marry. It's a little intertaining, but not a book that I would read at this time. Thanks for the suggestion.
:cool:

[anna]

I read a little of The Female Eunich. It is a catchy title, but its not really my style. If I want to bash evil men, I can use the Bible instead of worldly philosophy, but I'd rather not; It's a complete waste of time. :)

[Sealeaf]

All this talk of marriage and family verses career is fine but no one knows the future. You may very well have to be both a mother and a career woman. Get all the preparation you can.
The point of a college education is to develope "critical facilities". This means you learn how to sift data and determine objective truth. Not just take some authority's word for it. This is why a lot of loose talk and arguement are essential to the college experience. It is by experiencing this that you learn to sift the data for yourself. Along the way you are exposed to the recorded thought of some of the brightest people who have ever lived, hopefully presented to you by some pretty bright professors. You do not have strong beliefs until you have tested and defended those beliefs.

May I suggest that while you learn to think in college you also prepare for a specific job? I came out of school with a degree in English Literature. A BA in EngLit and $2.00 will get you a cupa coffee. I found that I wanted to get married after college and I can tell you that going back to school the get a saleable education while working at a menial job to support a family is not fun. ( I will never regret the EngLit course load though. I have read all of Shakespear. He remains the finest writer ever to write in English.)

[The Berean]

Colleges are almost obsolete. Ever heard of Google? Virtually all known information is at our fingertips now. I know tons of people who do not have degrees but are successful (honest and provide for their families) and there are lots of burger flippers with college degrees!
I agree with mostly everything you said, CRASH but I'm sorry this is absurd!! I work as an engineer in the aerospace industry. Try going to an interview at Lockheed Martin (where I work presently), Boeing, Space Systems/Loral, Orbital Sciences Corp., Northrop Grumman, Scaled Composites, Raytheon Space Systems, SpaceDev, Spectrum Astro, SLAC, SpaceX, T/Space, Kistler Aerospace, Applied Aerospace Structured Corporation, Vought Aircraft Industries, etc. and tell them, "No, I don't have an engineering degree but I watched lots of Star Trek and read about spacecraft and aircraft on Google!" What kind of response do you think they will get? :rolleyes:

Do you want the contractor who builds your house to learn about construction from Google? Do you want the doctor that may perform surgery on you to learn about surgery from Google? Do you want the engineer that design airliners that you may fly to learn about aerospace enigneering from watching Star Trek?

[BillyBob]

Should women go to college?



I didn't realize there are colleges that teach how to cook, wash dishes and do laundry.

[koban]

:darwinsm: That would be "The Academy For Barefoot and Pregnant" :chuckle:

[BillyBob]

Yeah, the course lasts about 15 minutes....on a good day!

[Frank Ernest]

Do you want the contractor who builds your house to learn about construction from Google?
:darwinsm: :BillyBob:?

Do you want the doctor that may perform surgery on you to learn about surgery from Google?
The last one that worked on me must have been a WalMart meat-cutter at one time.

Do you want the engineer that design airliners that you may fly to learn about aerospace enigneering from watching Star Trek?
Hey! The space shuttle idea and design were copped from the movie "2001!"

Seriously, I see your point. I worked in aerospace for a stretch. Most of the engineers I worked with were pretty good. Far as I know, they all had university degrees. (There was no Google to search at the time, but we did have DARPA.)

[BillyBob]

I can learn about construction from Google? :noway:

And here I've wasted the past 30 years learning it the 'old fashioned' way. :freak:

[CRASH]

I agree with mostly everything you said, CRASH but I'm sorry this is absurd!! I work as an engineer in the aerospace industry. Try going to an interview at Lockheed Martin (where I work presently), Boeing, Space Systems/Loral, Orbital Sciences Corp., Northrop Grumman, Scaled Composites, Raytheon Space Systems, SpaceDev, Spectrum Astro, SLAC, SpaceX, T/Space, Kistler Aerospace, Applied Aerospace Structured Corporation, Vought Aircraft Industries, etc. and tell them, "No, I don't have an engineering degree but I watched lots of Star Trek and read about spacecraft and aircraft on Google!" What kind of response do you think they will get? :rolleyes:

Do you want the contractor who builds your house to learn about construction from Google? Do you want the doctor that may perform surgery on you to learn about surgery from Google? Do you want the engineer that design airliners that you may fly to learn about aerospace enigneering from watching Star Trek?

Okay I retract the statement partially and it was to be understood in the context of the rest of my post. What I meant was "vast array of knowledge" is available and much of it is useful in various fields such as business. I did state previously that if my kid wanted to be a doctor he would need to go to College. I have a friend who apprenticed as an engineer and eventually worked on an optics application for the Apache helicopter. I bet you can apprentice as a homebuilder and fill in the blanks with Google.

[anna]

All this talk of marriage and family verses career is fine but no one knows the future. You may very well have to be both a mother and a career woman. Get all the preparation you can.
The point of a college education is to develope "critical facilities". This means you learn how to sift data and determine objective truth. Not just take some authority's word for it. This is why a lot of loose talk and arguement are essential to the college experience. It is by experiencing this that you learn to sift the data for yourself. Along the way you are exposed to the recorded thought of some of the brightest people who have ever lived, hopefully presented to you by some pretty bright professors. You do not have strong beliefs until you have tested and defended those beliefs.

May I suggest that while you learn to think in college you also prepare for a specific job? I came out of school with a degree in English Literature. A BA in EngLit and $2.00 will get you a cupa coffee. I found that I wanted to get married after college and I can tell you that going back to school the get a saleable education while working at a menial job to support a family is not fun. ( I will never regret the EngLit course load though. I have read all of Shakespear. He remains the finest writer ever to write in English.)

Hi Sealeaf,

My main goal in going to college is to get a job in a field that pays a decent salary. I also at the same time want to improve my thinking skills whether that be in communication or math skills. I agree that the future is uncertain and that some exposure to loose talk is good in helping me shape my own belief system.

One class that I found that was very helpful was a writing class I took at USM. The book we used was called Academic Writing and I think it was written by a Canadian author named Sonia Masik (sp?). The professor used the book to introduce a genre of writing that was said to exist between school-room writing and scholarly writing and helped me begin to understand how to shape or construct arguments that didn't start with the assumption that the reader believed in the Bible or even in absolute truth.

I think I understand what you mean by strong beliefs. I think that you are saying that beliefs are the ideas themselves or rather the persons understanding, knowledge, or ability to explain or debate their beliefs in a rational, consistent manner. I guess a better way to put things is to say that as a person, I am not as easily conformed or pursuaded to the ideas or attitudes that exist on campus that seem to be the most popular. I tend to think more about things then just automatically follow the crowd eventhough I may not have enough knowledge and perspective to fully articulate or defend my beliefs. I am not sure if this is a better way of saying this but I think it is at least a little more specific.

I had thought about teaching English eventhough I am not really a literature buff and tend to have a tough time with writers block, so I don't know if I would be a good English teacher. Even if I had the skills, I would still have to read enough literature so that I could understand how to take a student from where he is to where he could be(I've had other students ask me to help them with their papers, but I knew that I couldn't help them.). Like anything else it would take time that I don't know if I should spend.

When you mentioned Shakespeare, it reminded me of one of his sonnets that my English teacher used as an assignment for me to give me encouragement. I can't remember much it now since my memory is shot, but it starts like this:

When in disgrace in fortunes eyes.
I beweep my outcast state

mabye you could find some comfort in this sonnet whenever you are discouraged. I am sure you can remember it well since you love Shakespear.
:wave:

anna

[anna]

I didn't realize there are colleges that teach how to cook, wash dishes and do laundry.

Actually, some colleges do teach home economics, but if I choose to learn how to cook, I would go to culinary school so that learn use it at home and market it as a business. One particular kind of cooking I would be interested in would be the Mediterranean cuisine. It's exotic and from what I read is very good for you. I just love hummus. :Servent:

[anna]

I agree with mostly everything you said, CRASH but I'm sorry this is absurd!! I work as an engineer in the aerospace industry. Try going to an interview at Lockheed Martin (where I work presently), Boeing, Space Systems/Loral, Orbital Sciences Corp., Northrop Grumman, Scaled Composites, Raytheon Space Systems, SpaceDev, Spectrum Astro, SLAC, SpaceX, T/Space, Kistler Aerospace, Applied Aerospace Structured Corporation, Vought Aircraft Industries, etc. and tell them, "No, I don't have an engineering degree but I watched lots of Star Trek and read about spacecraft and aircraft on Google!" What kind of response do you think they will get? :rolleyes:

Do you want the contractor who builds your house to learn about construction from Google? Do you want the doctor that may perform surgery on you to learn about surgery from Google? Do you want the engineer that design airliners that you may fly to learn about aerospace enigneering from watching Star Trek?

Cool.. My dad is an aerospace engineer. He is the one who encouraged me to study computer science since I could understand most of what he says. He loves talking shop about transducers and locks-rich fuel and all kinds of other things you don't hear in everyday conversations. I guess that is why I like being around people who say things I don't understand because I like trying to figure out what they are saying.

[Christine]

All this talk of marriage and family verses career is fine but no one knows the future. You may very well have to be both a mother and a career woman. Get all the preparation you can.
The point of a college education is to develope "critical facilities". This means you learn how to sift data and determine objective truth. Not just take some authority's word for it. This is why a lot of loose talk and arguement are essential to the college experience. It is by experiencing this that you learn to sift the data for yourself. Along the way you are exposed to the recorded thought of some of the brightest people who have ever lived, hopefully presented to you by some pretty bright professors. You do not have strong beliefs until you have tested and defended those beliefs.

May I suggest that while you learn to think in college you also prepare for a specific job? I came out of school with a degree in English Literature. A BA in EngLit and $2.00 will get you a cupa coffee. I found that I wanted to get married after college and I can tell you that going back to school the get a saleable education while working at a menial job to support a family is not fun. ( I will never regret the EngLit course load though. I have read all of Shakespear. He remains the finest writer ever to write in English.)

Going to college just to develop "critical facilities" sure seems like a waste of money when you could better develop critical thinking and worldview from books.

[BillyBob]

Actually, some colleges do teach home economics, but if I choose to learn how to cook, I would go to culinary school so that learn use it at home and market it as a business. One particular kind of cooking I would be interested in would be the Mediterranean cuisine. It's exotic and from what I read is very good for you. I just love hummus. :Servent:


Ummmm.......a word of advice from your Uncle BillyBob. If you want to have any chance of getting a man, forget the hummus and learn how to grill a nice, thick steak. Oh, and when he rings that bell next to the Lazy Boy, bring him a beer.

[anna]

Ummmm.......a word of advice from your Uncle BillyBob. If you want to have any chance of getting a man, forget the hummus and learn how to grill a nice, thick steak. Oh, and when he rings that bell next to the Lazy Boy, bring him a beer.

I guess thats why children learn to call their dad's Santa Clause, because of the big pot belly...but I love having me a big fat jucy stacke,myself which is unfortunate because women have to be more concerned about health then men do since we get sicker often...besides there are men who whine and complain about how their wives cooked the things they wanted and subsequently they (the men) have health problems because they didn't listen to their wives sound advice, but having their own weight problems doesn't keep them form critizing other people for the same problems they have. If getting a man means dealing with a whining hyprocrite who is wise in his own eyes, then I would prefer living alone.

[The Berean]

Okay I retract the statement partially and it was to be understood in the context of the rest of my post. What I meant was "vast array of knowledge" is available and much of it is useful in various fields such as business. I did state previously that if my kid wanted to be a doctor he would need to go to College. I have a friend who apprenticed as an engineer and eventually worked on an optics application for the Apache helicopter. I bet you can apprentice as a homebuilder and fill in the blanks with Google.

I've met lots of awesome homebuilders that work with fiberglass, carbon fiber, have mills and lathes at home. Those guy are awesome. I love talking to them becasue I can learn things that can help me be a better engineer. Yes, Google has vast information but knowing how to apply that information is the main skill one learns from college, at leasting in engineering.

[The Berean]

Cool.. My dad is an aerospace engineer. He is the one who encouraged me to study computer science since I could understand most of what he says. He loves talking shop about transducers and locks-rich fuel and all kinds of other things you don't hear in everyday conversations. I guess that is why I like being around people who say things I don't understand because I like trying to figure out what they are saying.
Does your dad working with propulsion systems?

[BillyBob]

I guess thats why children learn to call their dad's Santa Clause, because of the big pot belly...but I love having me a big fat jucy stacke,myself which is unfortunate because women have to be more concerned about health then men do since we get sicker often...besides there are men who whine and complain about how their wives cooked the things they wanted and subsequently they (the men) have health problems because they didn't listen to their wives sound advice,

Translation: Nagging.


but having their own weight problems doesn't keep them form critizing other people for the same problems they have. If getting a man means dealing with a whining hyprocrite who is wise in his own eyes, then I would prefer living alone.

Sounds like you are off to a good start....

[CRASH]

For most women, not all, but most, they face a major dilemma when they want to have children. They want to be home with their children but it is hard to give up the career when they have invested so much time and money into college, the job and they have built a lifestyle based on 2 incomes.

[anna]

Does your dad working with propulsion systems?

I'll have to ask him specifically. Whenever I ask him what he does, he tells me that he tests rocket fuel engines and primarily works more on the softeware aspect then the hardware. I jokingly refer to my dad as the man who pushes buttons and writes instructions :chuckle:

[anna]

For most women, not all, but most, they face a major dilemma when they want to have children. They want to be home with their children but it is hard to give up the career when they have invested so much time and money into college, the job and they have built a lifestyle based on 2 incomes.

Yeah..I can see how easy it is to fall into that mindset. I come from a family where both parents worked in high paying jobs, so I had alot of stuff that others didn't have, but I didn't have a real stable family life. I also was raised on the idea that you had to go to college and that hard work was necessary.

I definately don't come from a line of slackers. Everybody in my family works and works really hard which is something I can be proud about. I'm sure that living on one salary would be an adjustment for me, but I doubt that I would miss all the stuff. Often times when I think of buying something, I can hear my dad's voice saying "what do you need that for" which is generally why I wear the same set of shirts and slacks each week and wear my shoes out till I can see the scuff marks and roll-step markings influenced by the days when I was in JROTC.
:)

[anna]

Translation: Nagging.



Sounds like you are off to a good start....

thank you

[Shalom]

For most women, not all, but most, they face a major dilemma when they want to have children. They want to be home with their children but it is hard to give up the career when they have invested so much time and money into college, the job and they have built a lifestyle based on 2 incomes.

Now that is definatley the truth....

I have seen many girls (lots of my friends) do this. I have one girlfriend who makes goobes (is that a real word?)of money as a realestate agent, so when she and her husband have children, the plan is that he will stay home with the kids not her. That would personally be so hard for me to leave my babies. I am glad I stayed home with my kids at least until they were in the school that we love so much for full time. That is why earlier I was saying Anna that you want to think about your future plans real carefully before you make your desicion. Being a stay at home wife/Mommy is the most wonderful job you can have. I got married young and had my first baby right away and then did the college thing afterwards. I took night classes after my kids were in bed most of the time, plus my husband really enjoyed his night out with the kids on the one night per week I had college classes for a few hours.

[CRASH]

..:thumb: :thumb:..:thumb::thumb:

[anna]

Does your dad working with propulsion systems?

Yes, he does.

[anna]

Now that is definatley the truth....

I have seen many girls (lots of my friends) do this. I have one girlfriend who makes goobes (is that a real word?)of money as a realestate agent, so when she and her husband have children, the plan is that he will stay home with the kids not her. That would personally be so hard for me to leave my babies. I am glad I stayed home with my kids at least until they were in the school that we love so much for full time. That is why earlier I was saying Anna that you want to think about your future plans real carefully before you make your desicion. Being a stay at home wife/Mommy is the most wonderful job you can have. I got married young and had my first baby right away and then did the college thing afterwards. I took night classes after my kids were in bed most of the time, plus my husband really enjoyed his night out with the kids on the one night per week I had college classes for a few hours.

I think that its neat that it's working out for you. It's good to know that for some people it can all work out. :thumb:

Decisions..decisions..lots of decisions to make :eek:

[Shalom]

Anna I will pray for God to help you with your desicion. Thats more important then any of the advice or opinions given here is to include God while making these important desicions. I know you know this and have already said this in a few different ways. :D

[anna]

Anna I will pray for God to help you with your desicion. Thats more important then any of the advice or opinions given here is to include God while making these important desicions. I know you know this and have already said this in a few different ways. :D

Thank you. I appreciate that. :angel:

[Sealeaf]

Going to college just to develop "critical facilities" sure seems like a waste of money when you could better develop critical thinking and worldview from books.
Not my opinion Christine. I was told that by the authors of "Womens Ways Of Knowing" at a daylong seminar they presented some years ago. They are philosophers who were working on the way people judge something to be true. Their book came to be when they noticed that their students,. at a major women's college, gave mostly uncodable answers when they gave them a test developed by a collegue at harvard. The standards of his test had been developed from the responses of a male student body. Since it was obvious that their students were quite able to think clearly, there was something wrong with the standards. They put together a test of how people deal with information and what they accept as truth. It was in the form of a structured interview. They then tested women in all walks of life from the illiterate and poverty stricken to the leaders in education, medicine and politics.
The development of the ablity to extract objective truth from a mass of data and conflicting opinions was what they identified as the primary function of post high school education. I would add, from my own observation, that professionals who have been educated in a highly techical field like medicine or engineering have these skills but they are restricted to their area of expertise. Outside their fields they are shockingly less competent.

[anna]

Not my opinion Christine. I was told that by the authors of "Womens Ways Of Knowing" at a daylong seminar they presented some years ago. They are philosophers who were working on the way people judge something to be true. Their book came to be when they noticed that their students,. at a major women's college, gave mostly uncodable answers when they gave them a test developed by a collegue at harvard. The standards of his test had been developed from the responses of a male student body. Since it was obvious that their students were quite able to think clearly, there was something wrong with the standards. They put together a test of how people deal with information and what they accept as truth. It was in the form of a structured interview. They then tested women in all walks of life from the illiterate and poverty stricken to the leaders in education, medicine and politics.
The development of the ablity to extract objective truth from a mass of data and conflicting opinions was what they identified as the primary function of post high school education. I would add, from my own observation, that professionals who have been educated in a highly techical field like medicine or engineering have these skills but they are restricted to their area of expertise. Outside their fields they are shockingly less competent.

That's interesting. I am amazed when I talk to my parents and while I respect both of them for being hard workers and good at what they do, I find somehow their thinking changes when they are outside their area of expertise.

My mother is a nurse; My father is an engineer. Both seem to be more educated then the average person, but not geniuses.My father is not a Christian yet in some ways his thinking is similiar to mine yet not completely. My mother is a Christian but her thinking is very different from mine yet somewhere there is a connection.

I am not sure if this makes any sence and I don't claim to be the most logical or well educated or what have you, but there seems to be a lack of unified thinking or body of knowlege (is that a word ?) or something that connects all the different areas of study or skills together so that the individual has a more fully developed way of thinking. Maybe it has something to do with the idea of specialization. Each person gets specialized knowlege instead of a more rounded education that I have read comes from reading Roman and Greek Literature as well as rigours study in the math and sciences and mastery of foreign languages.

I am just throwing something out here... :confused: :think:

[themuzicman]

Women should definately go to college. It's a great place to get your MRS degree.. *snicker*

[Lucky]

I have seen many girls (lots of my friends) do this. I have one girlfriend who makes goobes (is that a real word?)of money as a realestate agent, so when she and her husband have children, the plan is that he will stay home with the kids not her.
It makes me wonder, is the future of the American economy designed for success for women? (Does that make sense?) I think I've heard somewhere that we're going from the Information Age to the Service Age. And it seems like with service, i.e. customer service, women have the advantage of having a nicer face and personality to deal with. I mean, based on their "help meet" nature, they're designed to be good servants, er, customer service folks.

Oh, and it's gobs.

[anna]

It makes me wonder, is the future of the American economy designed for success for women? (Does that make sense?) I think I've heard somewhere that we're going from the Information Age to the Service Age. And it seems like with service, i.e. customer service, women have the advantage of having a nicer face and personality to deal with. I mean, based on their "help meet" nature, they're designed to be good servants, er, customer service folks.

Oh, and it's gobs.

It makes sence to me. We have women who organize peoples homes for them, women who provide day care, personal coaches etc.. Who knows maybe we will have governesses since the schools are really getting bad. Instead of going to public school or a private school maybe some of the well- to- do folks will hire someone to raise and teach their kids for them.

[Sealeaf]

That's interesting. I am amazed when I talk to my parents and while I respect both of them for being hard workers and good at what they do, I find somehow their thinking changes when they are outside their area of expertise.

My mother is a nurse; My father is an engineer. Both seem to be more educated then the average person, but not geniuses.My father is not a Christian yet in some ways his thinking is similiar to mine yet not completely. My mother is a Christian but her thinking is very different from mine yet somewhere there is a connection.

I am not sure if this makes any sence and I don't claim to be the most logical or well educated or what have you, but there seems to be a lack of unified thinking or body of knowlege (is that a word ?) or something that connects all the different areas of study or skills together so that the individual has a more fully developed way of thinking. Maybe it has something to do with the idea of specialization. Each person gets specialized knowlege instead of a more rounded education that I have read comes from reading Roman and Greek Literature as well as rigours study in the math and sciences and mastery of foreign languages.

I am just throwing something out here... :confused: :think:If I were to have my choice it would be for everyone to have a liberal arts education. That's where you get that broad knowledge base. That will not make everyone agree with eachother of course. In any case the needs of the modern world are such that we need specialists and they simply don't have time to get a broad lib art education. Instead we just need to be aware that expertise in one area does not mean experise in all areas. Particularly expertise does not mean moral excellence. Not everyone who goes to college learns to do critical thinking, even in a specialized field. It is possible to go through the motions but not get the idea.

[anna]

If I were to have my choice it would be for everyone to have a liberal arts education. That's where you get that broad knowledge base. That will not make everyone agree with eachother of course. In any case the needs of the modern world are such that we need specialists and they simply don't have time to get a broad lib art education. Instead we just need to be aware that expertise in one area does not mean experise in all areas. Particularly expertise does not mean moral excellence. Not everyone who goes to college learns to do critical thinking, even in a specialized field. It is possible to go through the motions but not get the idea.

I often think that Liberal arts is the ticket to broad knowledge, but it is difficult to learn or endure these classes because alot of the literature I've read and the assignments I had to do fostered rebellion against Biblical principles. Often times the professor would make observations about the text that could not be argued based on the whole text. They would purposely read too much into things to subtly promote anti-Christian views. I know though it is important to try to undertand different cultures so that I could be more effective in communicating with different people wheter I am trying to ask a simple question to work with them on some project or wheter I am giving them a reason why I believe the things I believe.

True. No two people think alike even if you put them in the same circumstances and give them the same education. Time is definately a factor and knowledge doesn't lead us to wisdom ( aka humility, which is an attitude that doesn't come from age and experience but is a choice that any person of any age could make ) If anything the little knowledge we do know often tempts us to be arrogant.

I think most people just go to college to get a piece of paper because you learn very early on that going to school is just a game or something to endure because you learn that Life is meaningless because God either doesn't exist or isn't really someone who cares enough to be involved in the lives of humans plus you spend most of your time with the same age group which makes it difficult to know how to talk to different people and learn how to be kind and mature instead of cruel and shallow.

:think:

[beefalobilly]

If the woman wants to become a successful wife and mother, then going to college is not a good idea. If she wants take on Adam's curse, then college will most likely be quite beneficial.
you're a fool. my mom went to college and I couldn't have asked for a better mother :loser:

[Poly]

That's very true. While I'm just working on pre-nursing courses right now, I'll probably enroll in a diploma program and have just as many job opportunities as someone with a 4 year degree in nursing. However, since I want to be a nurse-midwife, eventually I'll have to get a 4 year, but this way, I won't have to go into debt to get it. :D

Christine, I'm curious. I know that you were homeschooled and it always sounded as if it was very successful for you. You seem to really advocate it so I assume you plan on homeschooling your kids as well. Do you not worry that by working as a nurse, you might have a hard time effectively homeschooling your kids at the same time?

[firechyld]

Crash, it's sounding a little like you think it's a good idea for a woman to rush into marriage. I find that a little at odds with your statement that your daughters will enter into arranged marriages. Personally, I think anna has the right idea with waiting for the right man and for her to be fully ready for marriage and motherhood.

Anna, you should also remember that it's quite OK to go to university for the simple reason that you like what you are studying. My degree is essentially useless in terms of career, and while I am contemplating changing it to something with a little more real world application, I wouldn't give back the years I've spent studying something because I loved it. It enriches you as a person and enhances skills you wouldn't think it focussed on, as well as your knowledge of the area you're studying.

I mean... obviously if you take a business management degree, you're looking at career. But teaching or computer science... it's something that enhances your skills AND makes you employable AND gives you the potential to work out of home. I think you have some pretty good ideas on what you want to do, and they seem well thought out and rationalised. I say go with what you think is right for you.

[Christine]

Christine, I'm curious. I know that you were homeschooled and it always sounded as if it was very successful for you. You seem to really advocate it so I assume you plan on homeschooling your kids as well. Do you not worry that by working as a nurse, you might have a hard time effectively homeschooling your kids at the same time?
Hi Poly, you are correct in assuming that I plan on homeschooling my future children. How does that fit in with a career? I'm not sure. My mother was also a nurse, but gave it up to be a stay-at-home mom. If I have a big family, I doubt I'd be working, but if I just had a few children (or while I just had the first few), I might consider working, probably just part-time. Whatever I decide, will have to be a joint decision between my future husband and I and will depend on many factors. One thing I know is with the time needed for homeschooling, it's extremely doubtful I'd work full-time. :)

[Poly]

Hi Poly, you are correct in assuming that I plan on homeschooling my future children. How does that fit in with a career? I'm not sure. My mother was also a nurse, but gave it up to be a stay-at-home mom. If I have a big family, I doubt I'd be working, but if I just had a few children (or while I just had the first few), I might consider working, probably just part-time. Whatever I decide, will have to be a joint decision between my future husband and I and will depend on many factors. One thing I know is with the time needed for homeschooling, it's extremely doubtful I'd work full-time. :)

:up:

[No Worries]

On this concept of homeschooling how does anyone think they can teach a child everything they need know to give it choices. Its depriving a child.

[Jukia]

You know, I dont have any particular ax to grind against home schooling. From everything I have seen, most of the kids turn out pretty well. It clearly shows a great deal of parental interest, which, despite the comments that are often made on this board against public schooling, is the main reason public school students do not do well (that from my public school teaching wife). However, the initial question, "Should women go to college?" is just dumb. I have 2 grown daughters, one an M.D. and one a Ph.D. Can't imagine they would have been able to get to where they are without college.

[ebenz47037]

On this concept of homeschooling how does anyone think they can teach a child everything they need know to give it choices. Its depriving a child.

How is homeschooling depriving a child?

[No Worries]

I just can't understand how a parent can teach all subjects. I aced French at school getting an A. It was my worst subject. I could never teach a child how to speak French. Sure if I study I can get myself to that level if I have help but a teacher draws on more information than just that which is taught. To teach someone to an A grade I'd have to study much further past that level or spend alot longer with that kid. At Math and sciences I was an A grade student too but there were some kids that just weren't mathematically inclined, teaching these kids maths and sciences would be a nightmare if I didn't have a natural inclination to the sciences. I have a degree in history but ask me to teach someone geology and I'd be absolutely lost, I couldn't do it because I chose to study history and as it turned out when I had to choose my subjects it was either geography or history. As a result my geology which is a later spin off of geography is poor.

I don't understand how one parent can teach all classes to a good level. Social skills must take an absolute battering as well. Clearly with 2 bright daughters but by the sounds of it both have taken different tracks through choice and ability. My brother works with computers and programming, its what he's good at. He only knew that because the choice was available to him to find out.

How if you homeschool do you find out if your child is a natural at math or acting or music or language. They're forever held back by one's own ability to teach that subject.

I completely agree with Jukia.

[bob b]

I just can't understand how a parent can teach all subjects. I aced French at school getting an A. It was my worst subject. I could never teach a child how to speak French. Sure if I study I can get myself to that level if I have help but a teacher draws on more information than just that which is taught. To teach someone to an A grade I'd have to study much further past that level or spend alot longer with that kid. At Math and sciences I was an A grade student too but there were some kids that just weren't mathematically inclined, teaching these kids maths and sciences would be a nightmare if I didn't have a natural inclination to the sciences. I have a degree in history but ask me to teach someone geology and I'd be absolutely lost, I couldn't do it because I chose to study history and as it turned out when I had to choose my subjects it was either geography or history. As a result my geology which is a later spin off of geography is poor.

I don't understand how one parent can teach all classes to a good level. Social skills must take an absolute battering as well. Clearly with 2 bright daughters but by the sounds of it both have taken different tracks through choice and ability. My brother works with computers and programming, its what he's good at. He only knew that because the choice was available to him to find out.

How if you homeschool do you find out if your child is a natural at math or acting or music or language. They're forever held back by one's own ability to teach that subject.

I completely agree with Jukia.

It has been my belief that home schooled kids do better at learning primarily because they learn at an early age how to learn. This does not mean that a good teacher wouldn't be helpful at times to explain difficult points, but at least up to High School most parents are fully capable of filling this role.

A love of reading is also a critical factor. I'm not sure exactly how this comes about, but one thing seems obvious, a home that doesn't have books in it is one where the kids do not seem to have a love of reading.

It's tough to be a good student if you don't like to read.

[ebenz47037]

I just can't understand how a parent can teach all subjects. I aced French at school getting an A. It was my worst subject. I could never teach a child how to speak French. Sure if I study I can get myself to that level if I have help but a teacher draws on more information than just that which is taught. To teach someone to an A grade I'd have to study much further past that level or spend alot longer with that kid. At Math and sciences I was an A grade student too but there were some kids that just weren't mathematically inclined, teaching these kids maths and sciences would be a nightmare if I didn't have a natural inclination to the sciences. I have a degree in history but ask me to teach someone geology and I'd be absolutely lost, I couldn't do it because I chose to study history and as it turned out when I had to choose my subjects it was either geography or history. As a result my geology which is a later spin off of geography is poor.

I don't understand how one parent can teach all classes to a good level. Social skills must take an absolute battering as well. Clearly with 2 bright daughters but by the sounds of it both have taken different tracks through choice and ability. My brother works with computers and programming, its what he's good at. He only knew that because the choice was available to him to find out.

How if you homeschool do you find out if your child is a natural at math or acting or music or language. They're forever held back by one's own ability to teach that subject.

I completely agree with Jukia.

Different parents do different things. People are gifted at different things, as well. Me? I'm a math/history/music nut with a photographic memory. I've had no problems teahing my daughter, so far. And, when she wanted to learn something that I don't know, I hired someone to do it for me.

As far as socialization, that's a non-worry for me and most homeschooling parents I know. Every homeschooled child I've ever met socializes with all age groups, instead of just their own ages. In other words, my daughter has her teenage friends. But, she also loves to talk to the old men and women in the nursing homes about the "good ole days" and play with the little kids in the church nursery.

By the way, I started homeschooling at the suggestion of a public school teacher who wanted me to make :jessilu: stop learning as fast as she was.

[ebenz47037]

It has been my belief that home schooled kids do better at learning primarily because they learn at an early age how to learn. This does not mean that a good teacher wouldn't be helpful at times to explain difficult points, but at least up to High School most parents are fully capable of filling this role.

A love of reading is also a critical factor. I'm not sure exactly how this comes about, but one thing seems obvious, a home that doesn't have books in it is one where the kids do not seem to have a love of reading.

It's tough to be a good student if you don't like to read.

:BRAVO: Reading is a big thing here! We have three five-foot tall bookshelves full and our headboard shelves full of books.

[No Worries]

It has been my belief that home schooled kids do better at learning primarily because they learn at an early age how to learn. This does not mean that a good teacher wouldn't be helpful at times to explain difficult points, but at least up to High School most parents are fully capable of filling this role. But thats just good parenting. Just because you send your child to school doesn't mean that you don't read with them or teach them yourself as well.

A love of reading is also a critical factor. I'm not sure exactly how this comes about, but one thing seems obvious, a home that doesn't have books in it is one where the kids do not seem to have a love of reading.

It's tough to be a good student if you don't like to read.

Hey 100% agree but it doesn't say anything about homeschooling.

[Poly]

On this concept of homeschooling how does anyone think they can teach a child everything they need know to give it choices. Its depriving a child.

I know, it's weird, huh? But public school teachers seem to think they can pull it off.

[ebenz47037]

I know, it's weird, huh? But public school teachers seem to think they can pull it off.

:chuckle:

[Jukia]

Often public schools have different teachers for different subjects, in the system my kids went to, by the 5th grade they managed that. They started Spanish in the 3rd grade, always had a separate foreign language teacher. In the 5th grade the teachers would change classes. By 6th grade the kids were changing classes.
This is not to say that parental involvment does not remain primary.
Books, I think we could open a store. My youngest, now 24, would read in between races at swim meets.

[No Worries]

:BRAVO: Reading is a big thing here! We have three five-foot tall bookshelves full and our headboard shelves full of books.

Absolutely reading is critical but that was always something I did more at home than anywhere else anyway. Personally I was starting to read before I went to school anyway. But I also know that if I hadn't gone to school then I would never have learnt what I learnt. I certainly wouldn't have studied Latin - neither of my parents speak it. Maths would have been a problem too. Reading about math and being taught math are two completely different things too. With mathematics its not the reading that important its the doing and a teacher is priceless. Same with learning a language. You can learn from a book but until you practice it on someone you don't actually know what is right and wrong. And you really need to practice it on somebody, or to hear someone explain what is what on a regular basis to learn it. Homeschooling in languages is fine if you speak all the languages yourself fluently, my girlfriend could quite easily teach her future child French, I dare say, she'd just speak to it in French and English from an early age and have two types of books lying around. If you don't speak another language homeschooling would have to be a big no-no.

[ebenz47037]

Absolutely reading is critical but that was always something I did more at home than anywhere else anyway. Personally I was starting to read before I went to school anyway. But I also know that if I hadn't gone to school then I would never have learnt what I learnt. I certainly wouldn't have studied Latin - neither of my parents speak it. Maths would have been a problem too. Reading about math and being taught math are two completely different things too. With mathematics its not the reading that important its the doing and a teacher is priceless. Same with learning a language. You can learn from a book but until you practice it on someone you don't actually know what is right and wrong. And you really need to practice it on somebody, or to hear someone explain what is what on a regular basis to learn it. Homeschooling in languages is fine if you speak all the languages yourself fluently, my girlfriend could quite easily teach her future child French, I dare say, she'd just speak to it in French and English from an early age and have two types of books lying around. If you don't speak another language homeschooling would have to be a big no-no.

:jessilu: taught herself to read at two years old. I'm not talking Dr. Seuss books, either. She was reading the newspaper. She took apart my old wind up alarm clock with a screwdriver and put it back together, missing only one spring, the same year. That's when I knew that I'd have problems with her and schools. :chuckle:

Both, :jessilu: and I are naturals at math. So, it's not a huge leap to say that I can easily teach my daughter math. As far as languages go, for us anyway, I speak Spanish (grew up in the only English speaking family in my neighborhood). She wanted to learn French but listened to a tape of it once and changed her mind.

And, you're wrong about not homeschooling if you can't speak another language. That's what tutors are for. Most homeschooling parents take the kids to music classes, language classes, art classes, and karate/soccer games/swimming, etc. Not everything has to be taught in the home to be considered homeschooling.

[No Worries]

I know, it's weird, huh? But public school teachers seem to think they can pull it off.

Do they? At a very young age its fine to have the same teacher teaching English and Math. A child of five isn't going to ask that many questions on integration or irregualr verbs. At a young age the teachers are trained to understands a chiold's psychology and progression but even so they still have different teachers for certain subjects. In this context they're learning social skills too and how to interact with peers in a work environment.

At a later age a child's learning becomes diversified to enable choice in the future. I know that I, and I am well educated, could not teach a child music, drama , languages, computer studies, certain humanities or certain sports.

I do know that I could teach certain humanities, certain sports, business studies and art to a very high level. In fact I'd walk into any school now and take on some of the teachers in these subjects, I'd be more qualified than most.

I feel I could, with a little brushing up, handle the sciences too but who's to say that my child might not be a natural at computers and languages. I'd not only depriving them of that future if I home schooled, but also of the social interaction skills learnt from being round one's peers.

[No Worries]

Ok so your maths is ok, if you don't mind me asking what level have you studied to? Its just that some people consider their math to be ok because they can add and multiply, do derivation and calculus etc. but they don't appreciate mechanical or statistical math and how complex it becomes.

And then physics, or chemistry, biology, the same applies here. If the answer is 'tutors' to all of these then what you have done is paid for a private education without the social interaction.

You'd be better of cooperatively investing in your own school buildings as a community and setting up your own private school.

[Christine]

NoWorries, I don't know why you think homeschooled students are "deprived." I was homeschooled for all twelve years of my education, including high school. I took introductory courses in three foreign languages, took math all the way up to calculus, and took advanced science classes. After all this, I scored above average on the ACT, and made the Dean's List my first quarter in college. I don't see my education as being deprived at all!

[No Worries]

NoWorries, I don't know why you think homeschooled students are "deprived." I was homeschooled for all twelve years of my education, including high school. I took introductory courses in three foreign languages, took math all the way up to calculus, and took advanced science classes. After all this, I scored above average on the ACT, and made the Dean's List my first quarter in college. I don't see my education as being deprived at all!

So what weren't you taught and how many languages do you speak now.

Above average, no offense, means absolutely nothing.

[hoosiermommy]

I just can't understand how a parent can teach all subjects.. I imagine that you have no idea how funny this really sounds. No one is capable of knowing every subject much less teaching all of them. (that's alot of topics to teach in a lifespan).

Do you know everything there is to know about biophysics? What about pediatric endrocronology? Do you know the major export of Zambia? How about something more basic; do you know how to make a French knot?

How if you homeschool do you find out if your child is a natural at math or acting or music or language. Now this is an easy one to answer. We are with them! We observe our children's interests. We see their strengths daily, hourly. We are able to pick up on the fact that they are really good at art or throughly enjoy aviation.

We don't have to wait for them to take a test in jr. high that says that because they like the outdoors and working with their hands that they should be fish farmer. (that was one of my recommended careers to pursue).

As a homeschool parent I don't have to listen to a guidance counselor suggest that my child is not smart enough to go to college and most likely will not graduate high school.

[ebenz47037]

Ok so your maths is ok, if you don't mind me asking what level have you studied to? Its just that some people consider their math to be ok because they can add and multiply, do derivation and calculus etc. but they don't appreciate mechanical or statistical math and how complex it becomes.

Well, I haven't officially studied to any level in math. I'm a high school graduate. But, in my spare time as a teen, I would pick up college-level math and science books at the used book store in town and read and do the lessons for fun.

And then physics, or chemistry, biology, the same applies here. If the answer is 'tutors' to all of these then what you have done is paid for a private education without the social interaction.

We're doing biology this year. :D I'm not hiring tutors this year, at all. I explained in my paragraph about my science as well. And, I already told you about social interaction, which, in my opinion, is not the most important thing about school. Lessons have always come first for our house (even when :jessilu: was in public and private school) and socialization was later.

You'd be better of cooperatively investing in your own school buildings as a community and setting up your own private school.

:chuckle: I want to do that eventually. But, you did make a good point about homeschool co-ops, there. That's where the parents who are good at Spanish teach a group Spanish; parents who are good at math teach a group math; etc. It's similar to a school with the exception that the parents are teaching the classes and know exactly what is being taught.

Let me tell you about my last experience with a public school, NW. My daughter was in the fourth grade. It was right after my husband passed away and neither of us could handle being together for more than an hour at a time. So, I enrolled her in the public school. I gave them copies of all of her records: grades, test results, counselling reports, etc. They knew that she was a very intelligent child and that I had always been highly involved in her schooling. In fact, they encouraged me to continue being involved in her schooling. That lasted all of one semester. The teacher told me that when they said they wanted me involved, they meant that they wanted me to make sure she had a healthy breakfast and got to school on time, not call her once a week or more to find out how my daughter was doing in school. BTW, the teacher answered that my daughter was doing fine in class. But, when the semester report cards came, :jessilu:'s grades went from As and Bs with homeschooling to Cs, Ds, and Fs in public school. When I asked about it, the teacher said that :jessilu: kept going ahead in the books.

[Christine]

So what weren't you taught
Um, IMO, I was taught everything I need to know and more. English skills, how to write a paper, introduced to great literature of the world, learned how to type, spell, memorize, work through math and science problems, introduced to the history of the world as well as U.S. government, and much, much more. Since I was homeschooled, I learned alot of great life skills in the process.


and how many languages do you speak now.
I can transliterate Greek and Hebrew into English and know some Latin.


Above average, no offense, means absolutely nothing.
Try telling that to an admissions office at a college or university

[Jukia]

We're doing biology this year. :.

Sorry, can't resist. How old is your daughter? And in Biology, how are you handling evolution?

[No Worries]

I imagine that you have no idea how funny this really sounds. No one is capable of knowing every subject much less teaching all of them. (that's alot of topics to teach in a lifespan).

Do you know everything there is to know about biophysics? What about pediatric endrocronology? Do you know the major export of Zambia? How about something more basic; do you know how to make a French knot?

See you have little understanding of progressive teaching. You don't teach biophysics as a first subject. One progresses through simple biology, to more adavnced stuff, to specialised stuff. By teaching 'all' subjects I meant covering all the foundation bases. Covering sciences, languages, arts, humanities, sports, technology.



Now this is an easy one to answer. We are with them! We observe our children's interests. We see their strengths daily, hourly. We are able to pick up on the fact that they are really good at art or throughly enjoy aviation.

We don't have to wait for them to take a test in jr. high that says that because they like the outdoors and working with their hands that they should be fish farmer. (that was one of my recommended careers to pursue).

As a homeschool parent I don't have to listen to a guidance counselor suggest that my child is not smart enough to go to college and most likely will not graduate high school.

But you are with them regardless you are their parent. Just because you send a child to school doesn't mean you stop teaching them or parenting them. No good parent waits for a test in jr. high. But if you see a child with an interest in sciences but don't have the background then you can't teach it. At school you are taught each science 4 to 5 days a week. You can't compete, and you aren't allowing your children to interact socially amongst their peers in a work environment.

[No Worries]

Sorry, can't resist. How old is your daughter? And in Biology, how are you handling evolution?

:rotfl: I knew that was coming.

Incidentally the major exports of Zambia are Copper and Aids. Sad but there you go.

[ebenz47037]

Sorry, can't resist. How old is your daughter? And in Biology, how are you handling evolution?

She's 16. And, because I believe in devolution as opposed to evolution, I think you may be able to see how I'm handling it. I use Bob Jones university press curriculum. Everything has a Christian slant. :)

[Jukia]

She's 16. And, because I believe in devolution as opposed to evolution, I think you may be able to see how I'm handling it. I use Bob Jones university press curriculum. Everything has a Christian slant. :)

Ah, I assume then, although I have not ever seen the Bob Jones U curriculum, you are either avoiding the issue or not teaching any real science in that area. In any event that is a shame.

[No Worries]

Um, IMO, I was taught everything I need to know and more. English skills, how to write a paper, introduced to great literature of the world, learned how to type, spell, memorize, work through math and science problems, introduced to the history of the world as well as U.S. government, and much, much more. Since I was homeschooled, I learned alot of great life skills in the process.

I can transliterate Greek and Hebrew into English and know some Latin.

How many languages do you speak. Can you speak to a Greek or a Jewish man in his native tongue. It sounds like your eduaction was very lacking if you list 'learning how to type, spell and memorize'. Which historic eras have you focussed on? Can you explain to me a simple structure for a history essay regardless of question.

If I told my professors at university I was above average in my exams they would have thrown me out. Above average is liberalism for 'bad'. You want to study something at an advanced level you should be better than good otherwise you need to resit.

[hoosiermommy]

But you do stop teaching them. For 6 hours (8 or more if they ride the bus) you send your child to an institution where someone else decides what they should learn.

[ebenz47037]

Ah, I assume then, although I have not ever seen the Bob Jones U curriculum, you are either avoiding the issue or not teaching any real science in that area. In any event that is a shame.

Not really. She's learning about it in books she chooses to read (she loves historical fiction). We discuss things. I tell her what I believe and say, "but the scientists say this." I will let her decide whether she believes in evolution or not for herself.

[No Worries]

Teaching isn't a tick in the box affair. You can't teach one subject one year only to drop it the next in favour of something else. And you can't teach history with a Christian slant, it would then be propaganda.

I know parts of America are pretty messed up with ID and evolution but anywhere else in the western world if you tried to get into a decent university biology department without understanding evolution you just wouldn't get anywhere.

You don't like that, tough you don't like biology and science then.

[hoosiermommy]

Teaching isn't a tick in the box affair. ... you can't teach history with a Christian slant, it would then be propaganda. . But teaching history with a liberal or a revised slant isn't?

[No Worries]

But you do stop teaching them. For 6 hours (8 or more if they ride the bus) you send your child to an institution where someone else decides what they should learn.

Don't send them on the bus then. Get involved in the curriculum the school teaches. A decent school will be teaching foundational stuff anyway so as to afford a broad a spectrum of choice as possible. You only really learn anything in any depth at college anyway but at least you have a choice of which direction you want to go in if you have a broad foundation.

[ebenz47037]

Teaching isn't a tick in the box affair. You can't teach one subject one year only to drop it the next in favour of something else. And you can't teach history with a Christian slant, it would then be propaganda.

Oh yes you can. But, I tend to go with a more secular view on history because I'm a medieval and civil war buff. I don't find a lot of books slanted to the Christian viewpoint for those two eras.

I know parts of America are pretty messed up with ID and evolution but anywhere else in the western world if you tried to get into a decent university biology department without understanding evolution you just wouldn't get anywhere.

I understand the theory of evolution. I just don't agree with all of it. And, it's not that big a deal to me anyway. Like I said, my daughter will make up her own mind.

You don't like that, tough you don't like biology and science then.

It doesn't matter if I like the theory of evolution or not, when it comes to science. Biology isn't one of my favorite subjects. I prefer chemistry and physics. So, I'm looking forward to next year. You can't say that I don't like science just because I don't agree with one aspect of it.

[Poly]

I imagine that you have no idea how funny this really sounds. No one is capable of knowing every subject much less teaching all of them. (that's alot of topics to teach in a lifespan).

Do you know everything there is to know about biophysics? What about pediatric endrocronology? Do you know the major export of Zambia? How about something more basic; do you know how to make a French knot?

Now this is an easy one to answer. We are with them! We observe our children's interests. We see their strengths daily, hourly. We are able to pick up on the fact that they are really good at art or throughly enjoy aviation.

We don't have to wait for them to take a test in jr. high that says that because they like the outdoors and working with their hands that they should be fish farmer. (that was one of my recommended careers to pursue).

As a homeschool parent I don't have to listen to a guidance counselor suggest that my child is not smart enough to go to college and most likely will not graduate high school.

:first: POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1020379#post1020379)

[No Worries]

But teaching history with a liberal or a revised slant isn't?

You don't teach history with any slant thats the point. A history teacher will teach a subject and the pupils will write an essay about that subject answering a given question in a number of different ways and all will be equally valid arguments.

For example; what were the causes for The Great War?

a) German aggression
b) French foreign policy
c) Imperialism
d) The Balkan crisis
e) Colonialism
f) A break down in communication
g) A failure to act by the internaional community
h) Politcal revolution.
i) The Franco Prussian war.
j) Power vacuum

The fact is all of these from a historians point of view can be argued. A student could answer with anyone and still get an 'A', it depends on his argument, not his orientation.

The question you ask shows that you have a poor understanding of history and how it is taught. You're education is sadly lacking.

[No Worries]

Oh yes you can. But, I tend to go with a more secular view on history because I'm a medieval and civil war buff. I don't find a lot of books slanted to the Christian viewpoint for those two eras.

Same applies to you regarding the history. You need to be teaching her the Christian view, and the muslim view, and the secularist view. History is extrapolating facts from opinion.


It doesn't matter if I like the theory of evolution or not, when it comes to science. Biology isn't one of my favorite subjects. I prefer chemistry and physics. So, I'm looking forward to next year. You can't say that I don't like science just because I don't agree with one aspect of it.

You're not teaching chemistry and physics this year?!?? What happens after next year when she decides biology is for her. She's not sudied it for a year. What happens if chemistry is for her and you've not taught her that for a year. Where is her time to reflect on what she is taught regarding the outside world. Teach them all the foundation subjects at once.

[No Worries]

:first: POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1020379#post1020379)

You've got to be kidding me.

[hoosiermommy]

The question you ask shows that you have a poor understanding of history and how it is taught. You're education is sadly lacking.Exactly!

I graduated from a public high school.
I spent maybe 3 weeks learning about the The Great War.

[Poly]

You've got to be kidding me.

Didn't public schools teach you the difference between kidding and being serious?

[ebenz47037]

Same applies to you regarding the history. You need to be teaching her the Christian view, and the muslim view, and the secularist view. History is extrapolating facts from opinion.

I don't teach any one view on history. I was just making a point that not everyone teaches the same way. Not every child learns the same way, either.

You're not teaching chemistry and physics this year?!?? What happens after next year when she decides biology is for her. She's not sudied it for a year. What happens if chemistry is for her and you've not taught her that for a year. Where is her time to reflect on what she is taught regarding the outside world. Teach them all the foundation subjects at once.

I'm teaching in the order that the high school does: ninth grade - life science; tenth grade - biology; eleventh grade - chemistry; and twelfth grade - physics. Of course, she's learned a little bit of each as the years have gone by. You have to teach them according to their ability to understand.

[No Worries]

Exactly!

I graduated from a public high school.
I spent maybe 3 weeks learning about the The Great War.

So you had a bad education....blame your parents. They should have demanded a better level of education for you, they paid for it. Its quite simple, walk in there and have the history teacher fired.

How long you spent on the Great War is irrelevant. Its the same for all topics and eras. A historian should not teach it with any slant but can argue it from any angle. I was annoyed a few years back when I realised that I had been taught Weimar history from a slightly prejudiced angle. It just dawned on me that I knew very little about why the Jews where blamed by the Germans as amongst the November Criminals. Even the birth of Nazism should be taught in a balanced and fair way.

The Trojan war should be seen from both sides just as much as the Great War. Your appreciation of history is poor. You're certainly not fit to teach it. Just because you had a bad schooling doesn't mean that you should teach yourself. It would be disasterous. Much better to find a school that would teach appropiately.

[Christine]

How many languages do you speak. Can you speak to a Greek or a Jewish man in his native tongue.
I said I can transliterate, do you not know what that means?


It sounds like your eduaction was very lacking if you list 'learning how to type, spell and memorize'.
My parents taught me those things (among others) and you said "very lacking?!" HA! I was just jotting down a quick list of some of the things I learned in my 12 years, including some of the things that help me in college. Having good memorization skills is key to succeeding in a college science class, on my exams spelling counts, and I type everything for school, but imagine how long that would take me if I was henpecking around.


Which historic eras have you focussed on?
Different ones different years. 10th grade, focused on world history, 11th focused on American history, 12th grade U.S. government and economics.


Can you explain to me a simple structure for a history essay regardless of question.
I don't really understand your question. I know how to write essays, and do so all the time but never really used a "simple structure." All I do for an essay question on an exam requiring a couple sentence answer is 1st define any terms necessary, 2nd tell how they are used, and lastly provide and example. That seems to work quite well for sociology, but I suppose I'd do it a tad different for history.


If I told my professors at university I was above average in my exams they would have thrown me out. Above average is liberalism for 'bad'. You want to study something at an advanced level you should be better than good otherwise you need to resit.
Being above average is not bad at all, it's very good IMO. When you're getting A's and B's nobody's going to "throw you out" of class. Methinks we have two different definitions of "above average."

[No Worries]

I don't teach any one view on history. I was just making a point that not everyone teaches the same way. Not every child learns the same way, either. But there are certain mechanism along which a child must be taught to think.


I'm teaching in the order that the high school does: ninth grade - life science; tenth grade - biology; eleventh grade - chemistry; and twelfth grade - physics. Of course, she's learned a little bit of each as the years have gone by. You have to teach them according to their ability to understand.

Then your schools are entirely wrong as well that doesn't mean that you should pull your kids out though just change the system. A 13yo will reflect on what it is taught in biology and physics and chemisty from the age of 13 with a thriteen year old's eyes. As will a 14. A 15 y.o., etc etc. Its this reflection that creates appreciation. Not only that but there are things in chemistry that reinforce understanding in biology and vice versa. As for physics and maths they should definetely be taught together from a very early age. Its the physics that makes maths fun for little kids. Not only that but physics can be used with chemistry, they all inter relate. To deny a kid physics till 12th grade is wrong, to not teach a kid biology after tenth grade for another two years is wrong.....how much more could they be learning about biology in that time.

Of course you teach them what they can understand which is why all subjects should be taught concurrently.

[Christine]

The question you ask shows that you have a poor understanding of history and how it is taught. You're education is sadly lacking.
NW, for being so concerned about my education, I would have thought surely you'd have had a decent one. Yet, you seem to not know when to use your instead of you're. :nono:

[hoosiermommy]

Of course you teach them what they can understand which is why all subjects should be taught concurrently. Now that makes sense!

But how is someone that is required to teach 20-30 people in a short hour suppose to do this effectively? Especially when that teachers is told what they can and cannot teach basedon the test results of the school district?

[Christine]

You're not teaching chemistry and physics this year?!?? What happens after next year when she decides biology is for her. She's not sudied it for a year. What happens if chemistry is for her and you've not taught her that for a year. Where is her time to reflect on what she is taught regarding the outside world. Teach them all the foundation subjects at once.
There's really nothing wrong with what Nori is doing. My mother went to public school and never even took chemistry in physics, you should at least appreciate she's planning on teaching it. FYI: I took biology one my 9th grade year, 12th grade decided "bio was for me" and took biology two. It's no big deal at all having a year or two between the courses, I did fine and it prepared me for Anatomy and Physiology in college. :)

[No Worries]

I said I can transliterate, do you not know what that means?


Yes it means you studied three languages and can't speak any foreign languages.

As for your essay questions. You're not even writing essays.

You've been cheated out of a history education, what you covered is terible; no depth and too diverse. You should not home tutor your kids history. Certainly not any languages.

You were taught 'world history' in one year??? :shocked:

[No Worries]

There's really nothing wrong with what Nori is doing. My mother went to public school and never even took chemistry in physics, you should at least appreciate she's planning on teaching it. FYI: I took biology one my 9th grade year, 12th grade decided "bio was for me" and took biology two. It's no big deal at all having a year or two between the courses, I did fine and it prepared me for Anatomy and Physiology in college. :)

You say you did fine but you don't know what you don't know that you would know had you studied it continuously. If you had studied it continuously you could have read up on what you were being taught at school and drawn more information in. Who knows instead of being a nurse you may have been a doctor.

[ebenz47037]

But there are certain mechanism along which a child must be taught to think.

Teaching styles have to be as diverse as learning styles. For instance, my daughter does very well learning "hands on." My nephew learns with a book/explanation better. My daughter learned how to think before she started school, anyway.

I'm teaching in the order that the high school does: ninth grade - life science; tenth grade - biology; eleventh grade - chemistry; and twelfth grade - physics. Of course, she's learned a little bit of each as the years have gone by. You have to teach them according to their ability to understand.

Then your schools are entirely wrong as well that doesn't mean that you should pull your kids out though just change the system. A 13yo will reflect on what it is taught in biology and physics and chemisty from the age of 13 with a thriteen year old's eyes. As will a 14. A 15 y.o., etc etc. Its this reflection that creates appreciation. Not only that but there are things in chemistry that reinforce understanding in biology and vice versa. As for physics and maths they should definetely be taught together from a very early age. Its the physics that makes maths fun for little kids. Not only that but physics can be used with chemistry, they all inter relate. To deny a kid physics till 12th grade is wrong, to not teach a kid biology after tenth grade for another two years is wrong.....how much more could they be learning about biology in that time.

Of course you teach them what they can understand which is why all subjects should be taught concurrently.

Any chance that you're a teacher? :chuckle: The only people I've met who are against pulling the children out of school are teachers. But, like I've said before, I pulled my daughter out at the suggestion of a public school teacher who stated, "Public schools are no longer equipped to handle intelligent children," in the second grade. I homeschooled her until my husband passed away. I put her back in public school until the school showed that they weren't capable of teaching my daughter at her level. Then, I decided to homeschool her again.

As to the rest of your paragraph/post, read what I emboldened in my quote above. I've taught her a little bit of all four sciences over the years, as she could understand it. Just because I don't do it the way you think is appropriate doesn't mean it isn't done.

[Jukia]

Not really. She's learning about it in books she chooses to read (she loves historical fiction). We discuss things. I tell her what I believe and say, "but the scientists say this." I will let her decide whether she believes in evolution or not for herself.

Is this comment supposed to show that evolution is historical fiction?

I did take a quick look at the Bob Jones U web site. I think it suggested that their biology dept did not teach evolution. they should be shot.

[ebenz47037]

Now that makes sense!

But how is someone that is required to teach 20-30 people in a short hour suppose to do this effectively? Especially when that teachers is told what they can and cannot teach basedon the test results of the school district?

That's the best thing about homeschooling. You can give one-on-one attention to your student(s).

[hoosiermommy]

Who knows instead of being a nurse you may have been a doctor.Didn't you watch "Meet the Parents"?

[Christine]

Yes it means you studied three languages and can't speak any foreign languages.
Obviously you know little about Biblical Hebrew and Greek. Many people, including Bible scholars, just transliterate.


As for your essay questions. You're not even writing essays.

Wow, that's amazing, since I was just following my Ph.D professor's instructions!


You've been cheated out of a history education, what you covered is terible; no depth and too diverse. You should not home tutor your kids history. Certainly not any languages.
Really, how much detail does one expect me to go into on a message board? Do you expect me to tell you about the time in 8th grade I studied the holocaust in detail and wrote a research paper on it. Or all the lessons I remember about wars, colonizing of America, Founding Fathers, and more? I didn't think so.

[Christine]

You were taught 'world history' in one year??? :shocked:
On the high school level. I also had it in junior high and grade school. I doubt this is much different than a public school course plan.

[Christine]

You say you did fine but you don't know what you don't know that you would know had you studied it continuously. If you had studied it continuously you could have read up on what you were being taught at school and drawn more information in.
Bio 2 dealt more with human anatomy than Bio 1, and did not build as much as Chem 2 or Physics 2 would have. Besides, I did not want to take Bio 2 right away, my father wanted to see if I would rather take Chem 2 or Phys 2, and I was sorely tempted to take Phys 2 (even started the course, before switching). I wouldn't have had a chance to consider Phys 2 if I had done things your way.


Who knows instead of being a nurse you may have been a doctor.
My decision to become a nurse is not based on grades or intellect. I have weighed the pro's and con's and would rather be a nurse, get out of school, and be practicing somewhere rather than spending 11+ years of my life studying medicine.

[Poly]

NW, for being so concerned about my education, I would have thought surely you'd have had a decent one. Yet, you seem to not know when to use your instead of you're. :nono:

Well, I was going to let it slide but since you brought this up, I also noticed he isn't quite clear on when a sentence should end with a question mark.


How if you homeschool do you find out if your child is a natural at math or acting or music or language.

On this concept of homeschooling how does anyone think they can teach a child everything they need know to give it choices.

So what weren't you taught and how many languages do you speak now.

[ebenz47037]

Is this comment supposed to show that evolution is historical fiction?

Grow a little thicker skin. Will you? That's not what I said. A lot of the books she likes to read are from pre-historic times (Clan of the Cave Bear series and People of the Earth series). Those are historical fiction, written about fictional people based on cave drawings in Europe and the Cahokia Mounds in the US. These books have opened my daughter up to a new love of history. When she reads about how the neanderthals were "meeting" the first people, she starts looking up evolutionary articles and lessons at the library. I don't tell her that she can't learn about evolution. And, I don't tell her that it's historical fiction, either. I think it's a scientific theory. That's it.

I did take a quick look at the Bob Jones U web site. I think it suggested that their biology dept did not teach evolution. they should be shot.

That's the college. Look at the curriculum (http://www.bjup.com) page. This is their description of their biology text:

Biology, Third Edition has been completely redesigned from front to back. The Student Text is filled with new and colorful photographs and illustrations. Special Facets of Biology articles provide in depth and practical information on topics covered in each chapter. Biology, Third Edition is the first of the BJU Press texts to incorporate the new P.I.L.R. (Personal Interactive Learning Resource) concept. P.I.L.R. texts are designed so that the students can personalize their text by writing notes, highlighting important concepts, and answering questions right in the text. While maintaining its focus on biblical integration, this two volume set covers cellular biology, genetics, biotechnology, taxonomy, origins, microbiology, botany, zoology, and human anatomy. The text also presents Christian positions on biotechnology, abortion, evolution, homosexuality, ecology, disease, and drugs. Each volume contains laboratory exercises designed to reinforce and complement the material presented in the student text.

Although they probably don't teach it to your preference, it looks like the new book covers it a little with origins. I have an older edition, though.

[No Worries]

Obviously you know little about Biblical Hebrew and Greek. Many people, including Bible scholars, just transliterate. So now its biblical Hebrew so not learnt as a living language at all. So could you write a letter in Hebrew or Greek to a Greek man or a Jew, without using reference books, and would they understand it.


Wow, that's amazing, since I was just following my Ph.D professor's instructions! Not a problem. Tell your professor he's not teaching you how to write an essay and he will agree that it is not a proper essay. Ask him - also ask him for a copy of his essays that he wrote towards his Phd and compare the structure. If its the same to what you are describing ask him which university he studied at or whether he bought his qualifications over the internet.



Really, how much detail does one expect me to go into on a message board? Do you expect me to tell you about the time in 8th grade I studied the holocaust in detail and wrote a research paper on it. Or all the lessons I remember about wars, colonizing of America, Founding Fathers, and more? I didn't think so.

Wow an eigth grade research paper, must have gone into lots of detail. Tell me how does an eigth grader come to terms with reading and understanding Mein Kampf. 8th grade study eh? You must be so upto speed with your history.

[Jukia]

ebenz: There is a substantive difference between "origins" and evolutionary theory. And evolution is not "just a theory". You need to understand what science means by theory. Others have explained that very well on this board elsewhere. I recommend looking at a harvey and stratnerds comments on various threads.

I would be interested on the Christian "positions" on the topics they list.

[No Worries]

Bio 2 dealt more with human anatomy than Bio 1, and did not build as much as Chem 2 or Physics 2 would have. Besides, I did not want to take Bio 2 right away, my father wanted to see if I would rather take Chem 2 or Phys 2, and I was sorely tempted to take Phys 2 (even started the course, before switching). I wouldn't have had a chance to consider Phys 2 if I had done things your way.


My decision to become a nurse is not based on grades or intellect. I have weighed the pro's and con's and would rather be a nurse, get out of school, and be practicing somewhere rather than spending 11+ years of my life studying medicine.

Done it the proper way and you would have studied a lot more and then some.
As for the nurse thing good on yer (though Bs wouldn't cut med school) but you should still have further knowledge than what you do. Tragic but true.

[Christine]

So now its biblical Hebrew so not learnt as a living language at all. So could you write a letter in Hebrew or Greek to a Greek man or a Jew, without using reference books, and would they understand it.
Transliterate means that I can take the Hebrew (or Greek) manuscripts in the ancient language and switch the letters over to match our English alphabet. Then, using a reference guide, you look up the transliteration. Nobody speaks the ancient languages, so this is not something I learned for that purpose. I learned this to help me study my Bible.



Wow an eight grade research paper, must have gone into lots of detail. Tell me how does an eight grader come to terms with reading and understanding Mein Kampf. 8th grade study eh? You must be so upto speed with your history.
I was focusing on the stories and history of the Jews, but yes, it was rather in depth for 8th grade. I was reading plenty of historical accounts and 1st hand stories, gathering pictures, learning about the camps, etc. I found it all extremely interesting. :)

[Christine]

As for the nurse thing good on yer (though Bs wouldn't cut med school) but you should still have further knowledge than what you do. Tragic but true.
I see nothing about my knowledge that wouldn't cut it in med school. I simply didn't want to put the time and money into it. Besides, with advanced practioner nurses, you have almost as much power as a Nurse Practioner or Nurse-midwife.

[anna]

So you had a bad education....blame your parents. They should have demanded a better level of education for you, they paid for it. Its quite simple, walk in there and have the history teacher fired.

How long you spent on the Great War is irrelevant. Its the same for all topics and eras. A historian should not teach it with any slant but can argue it from any angle. I was annoyed a few years back when I realised that I had been taught Weimar history from a slightly prejudiced angle. It just dawned on me that I knew very little about why the Jews where blamed by the Germans as amongst the November Criminals. Even the birth of Nazism should be taught in a balanced and fair way.

The Trojan war should be seen from both sides just as much as the Great War. Your appreciation of history is poor. You're certainly not fit to teach it. Just because you had a bad schooling doesn't mean that you should teach yourself. It would be disasterous. Much better to find a school that would teach appropiately.

I think it is good to try out different schools and read on your own if you have the time. When I took a History course from USM and then took that same course at SLU I noticed alot of differences in the presentation of the subject matter.

Acutally I couldn't help but laugh when the professor glossed over some of the matter using satire. It makes you realize when you study history from different angles that you are learning mostly opinions and perspectives rather then cold hard facts. History is just that; it is a story, so you have to keep that in mind whenever you read something wheter it is a Christian viewpoint or a secular view point. It helps to look at things from different angles because it helps you be more effective (if not more creative) in communicating with people.
:)

[anna]

Obviously you know little about Biblical Hebrew and Greek. Many people, including Bible scholars, just transliterate.


Wow, that's amazing, since I was just following my Ph.D professor's instructions!


Really, how much detail does one expect me to go into on a message board? Do you expect me to tell you about the time in 8th grade I studied the holocaust in detail and wrote a research paper on it. Or all the lessons I remember about wars, colonizing of America, Founding Fathers, and more? I didn't think so.

That's really neat. How did you learn Biblical Hebrew and Greek? I'm curious. :)

Actually No Worries has a point there because most professors don't teach their students how to write in the genre of the subject matter they are teaching. At my college, the English professors primarily use a scantron to test students on Literature (as if you can teach Literature and critical thinking skills with a scantron :kookoo: )Different subjects require different methods (or genres)of writing.

I think it is good to homeschool because there is more one-on-one instruction and you can teach them life lessons which are sooo very crucial if the child is ever going to be successful at anything. If I ever had kids then I would seriously consider teaching them myself and hiring tutors. :)

[No Worries]

Teaching styles have to be as diverse as learning styles. For instance, my daughter does very well learning "hands on." My nephew learns with a book/explanation better. My daughter learned how to think before she started school, anyway.

See you don't understand the concept of mechanisms. Yes some children learn by hands on approach and others prefer books. But regardless of how you teach them they still have to learn mechanisms which is why math and latin/a foreign language is important. Math teaches logic and approach, a foreign language teaches construct.
Regardless of what way a child is most responsive, certain mechanisms must be taught. In history it would be to present a balanced argument when arguing from a certain perspective and to address the question throughout.

To just teach a subject is wrong, the approach of the subject is just as vital. Its why in math you can get the all the wrong answers in a test but still get 90% . Method is crucial.




Any chance that you're a teacher? :chuckle:

No but thats the second time somebody on TOL has mentioned me and teaching.
If I wantded to qualify though it wouldonly take me a few months as I've worked in industry and have the relevant qualifications. It would be a fast track thing.


I pulled my daughter out at the suggestion of a public school teacher who stated, "Public schools are no longer equipped to handle intelligent children," in the second grade. I homeschooled her until my husband passed away. I put her back in public school until the school showed that they weren't capable of teaching my daughter at her level. Then, I decided to homeschool her again.

As to the rest of your paragraph/post, read what I emboldened in my quote above. I've taught her a little bit of all four sciences over the years, as she could understand it. Just because I don't do it the way you think is appropriate doesn't mean it isn't done.

You should have requested that the teacher be removed from the school, she admitted she was not capable of doing her job. I don't understand though if your child was racing ahead of the others then why she came back with Cs and Ds when she'd been As and Bs. What it suggests to me is that she may have specific knowledge in certain ares but lacks on an overall foundation. If someone gets As and Bs at ninth grade they should be able to sit 8th grade exams and get all 'A's. Again it suggests a lack of foundation and methodology to the teaching.

[No Worries]

I think it is good to try out different schools and read on your own if you have the time. When I took a History course from USM and then took that same course at SLU I noticed alot of differences in the presentation of the subject matter.

Acutally I couldn't help but laugh when the professor glossed over some of the matter using satire. It makes you realize when you study history from different angles that you are learning mostly opinions and perspectives rather then cold hard facts. History is just that; it is a story, so you have to keep that in mind whenever you read something wheter it is a Christian viewpoint or a secular view point. It helps to look at things from different angles because it helps you be more effective (if not more creative) in communicating with people.
:)

History grads of the world unite. :up:

[No Worries]

Transliterate means that I can take the Hebrew (or Greek) manuscripts in the ancient language and switch the letters over to match our English alphabet. Then, using a reference guide, you look up the transliteration. Nobody speaks the ancient languages, so this is not something I learned for that purpose. I learned this to help me study my Bible. Exactly you don't speak a language. Incidentally plenty of people are capable of speaking ancient languages. My old Latin teacher would ramble away. Its just not used practically so is seldom tested. Fact is, drawing it back to the arguement, you could not homeschool any languages.



I was focusing on the stories and history of the Jews, but yes, it was rather in depth for 8th grade. I was reading plenty of historical accounts and 1st hand stories, gathering pictures, learning about the camps, etc. I found it all extremely interesting. :)

Exactly, what one considers in depth for an 8th grader is nothing. And I dare say they're was a very negative slant on the Nazi aspect. However I could quite happily argue the pro-Nazi side. That doesn't mean that I agree with it - I don't, but the matter is not so clear cut in real life. And in this case, the guilt runs a little further afield than just at the feet of the Nazis.

How would you teach a 12th grader if you only have an 8th grade understanding? How do you answer a good 12th graders questions when you have only done 12th grade yourself. If you teach a subject you need a university diploma in that or a closely related subject.

[No Worries]

Well, I was going to let it slide but since you brought this up, I also noticed he isn't quite clear on when a sentence shoud end with a question mark.

Oh grow up. I'm typing away on a keyboard to a forum and so its colloquial languange thats being used.

You get the message. Stop being pedantic.

I think everyone here knows how a question mark should be used. Lets not go down the silly track of making childish comments.

[Christine]

Exactly you don't speak a language. Incidentally plenty of people are capable of speaking ancient languages. My old Latin teacher would ramble away. Its just not used practically so is seldom tested. Fact is, drawing it back to the arguement, you could not homeschool any languages.
You're trying to limit the definition of a foreign language to something currently being spoken in some country. Yet, I believe that Greek and Hebrew were quite helpful for Bible study aides, and Greek has plenty of roots that show up in medicine.

Now, about spoken languages, I know plenty of homeschoolers that have learned Spanish, Latin, or other "modern" languages at home. I really don't see what the big deal is about not being able to learn a foreign language at home. You just buy tapes, books, etc that tell you how to pronounce the words and you do it. No big deal.





How would you teach a 12th grader if you only have an 8th grade understanding? How do you answer a good 12th graders questions when you have only done 12th grade yourself. If you teach a subject you need a university diploma in that or a closely related subject.
I learn from books, if I had questions, I always asked my folks. I don't remember a time when we could not figure it out.

FYI: My father has a master's in education, but sees himself as being no better qualified to homeschool than the next person. All parents are more than qualified to teach their own children. :)

[anna]

Crash, it's sounding a little like you think it's a good idea for a woman to rush into marriage. I find that a little at odds with your statement that your daughters will enter into arranged marriages. Personally, I think anna has the right idea with waiting for the right man and for her to be fully ready for marriage and motherhood.

Anna, you should also remember that it's quite OK to go to university for the simple reason that you like what you are studying. My degree is essentially useless in terms of career, and while I am contemplating changing it to something with a little more real world application, I wouldn't give back the years I've spent studying something because I loved it. It enriches you as a person and enhances skills you wouldn't think it focussed on, as well as your knowledge of the area you're studying.

I mean... obviously if you take a business management degree, you're looking at career. But teaching or computer science... it's something that enhances your skills AND makes you employable AND gives you the potential to work out of home. I think you have some pretty good ideas on what you want to do, and they seem well thought out and rationalised. I say go with what you think is right for you.

thanks , firechyld
I am trying to make the most out of my education and be realistic about my life. If I don't marry then that's okay. If I marry when I am too old to have kids, that okay. If I marry and have kid's that's okay too as long as I got my bases covered. It is better for me to be more well rounded and be employable so that if I decide to marry, then I will be a chooser rather then a beggar and will have the skills needed for me to be a good wife and mother. :)

[Christine]

BTW: NW, you claimed that Biblical Greek and Hebrew were seldom tested. However, both are still taught in seminaries across the country.

[No Worries]

BTW: NW, you claimed that Biblical Greek and Hebrew were seldom tested. However, both are still taught in seminaries across the country.

Seldom tested verbally by a biblical scholar. I dare say Greeks speak a lot of Greek.

Learn Latin and you need not learn how to speak it as it is rarely spoken. Tests are available in spoken Latin but are rare and seldom compulsory to a qualification. Keep up. You don't speak any foreign languages and so aren't in a postion to teach them.

[anna]

History grads of the world unite. :up:

Well..I don't know much about history, but I know enough to be able to begin seeing things from the perspective of a history student.

I tend to be very black and white about things which is why I think that computer science is for me eventhough my math is weak.

Math doesn't intimidate me as much as it used to, but it is still a pain to learn because you think you know something really well, but you don't; it is a very humbling experience.
I still don't know that f(x)=y and only reciently did I learn or begin to learn that the graph is a visual representation of the equation. Learning concepts in math does not seem to be exactly the same as learning concepts in Language eventhough there is a connection between good language skills and good math skills. I don't know much about these two disciplines. I am still trying to figure them both out.

[No Worries]

You're trying to limit the definition of a foreign language to something currently being spoken in some country. Yet, I believe that Greek and Hebrew were quite helpful for Bible study aides, and Greek has plenty of roots that show up in medicine.

Now, about spoken languages, I know plenty of homeschoolers that have learned Spanish, Latin, or other "modern" languages at home. I really don't see what the big deal is about not being able to learn a foreign language at home. You just buy tapes, books, etc that tell you how to pronounce the words and you do it. No big deal.

Like it or not you need to practice a language and you need someone to corrext you as you go along. Tapes are an aid, but no replacement for a teacher. I am not limiting language skills to that spoken in some country. I learned latin. Which country do they speak latin in?


I learn from books, if I had questions, I always asked my folks. I don't remember a time when we could not figure it out.

FYI: My father has a master's in education, but sees himself as being no better qualified to homeschool than the next person. All parents are more than qualified to teach their own children. :)

Absolute nonsense. All you're doing is practicing flawed learning. If you're parents look up an answer then they don't know if they have the right answer. You need someone who is qualified. Parents are not qualified to teach their children. You for example cannot teach French. Buy a tape and you still don't know the language. You're limited to what the tape has on it. Listen to a teacher who speaks fluent French and you are limited by his knowledge. His knowledge is a lot more extensive than any tape. It is your ignorance that is passed onto your children. Its like photocopying a photocopy. The image gets worse the more you do it.

If your father has a master's in education but does not see himself as a better educator then what was the point of him doing his masters. I have a history degree, I would make a better teacher of history than you. My girlfriend has a degree in French. She would make a better teacher of French than either of us. My brother has a degree in physics. He would make a better physics teacher.

If I found out that a child of mine was being taught by a teacher who had only listened to tapes and read some educational books then I would address the school, inform the other parents and have the teacher removed.

In answer to the thread's title 'should women go to college' the simple answer is it depends what the woman wants to do. Stay at home, get pregnant, cook and clean the house. College isn't necessary. If you want to be educated to a reasonable degree, then yes, college is a good idea. If you want to be a teacher, it should be essential.

[No Worries]

Well..I don't know much about history, but I know enough to be able to begin seeing things from the perspective of a history student.
I tend to be very black and white about things which is why I think that computer science is for me eventhough my math is weak.

Math is just one of those things that you have to practice and practice to be able to do. Its the mind's equivalent of gymnastics.

Math doesn't intimidate me as much as it used to, but it is still a pain to learn because you think you know something really well, but you don't; it is a very humbling experience.

Excellent point. You don't realise what you didn't know until you've learnt about it. You may think you are in a great position to homeschool but in actual fact you know very little about what you are teaching unless you have studied each subject in depth. Its nigh on impossible to learn each subject in depth so you must rely on teachers. That doesn't mean that if a teacher isn't doing their job that you have to accept it. I'm assuming everybody wants what is best for their child. It is important then that I accept that I cannot teach my child languages/sports/geography/biology/etc. to the extent that someone else can.

I still don't know that f(x)=y and only reciently did I learn or begin to learn that the graph is a visual representation of the equation. Learning concepts in math does not seem to be exactly the same as learning concepts in Language eventhough there is a connection between good language skills and good math skills. I don't know much about these two disciplines. I am still trying to figure them both out.

f(x)=y is a function. The 'f' stands for funtion. A function does something to something. In this case it does something to the 'x' value which is why the 'x' is in brackets by the 'f'. When this something is done to the 'x' value then what the answer is, is called the 'y'.

A graph is simply a plot of what happens to the 'x' value, whatever it may be once it has undergone change by a function. Once it has undergone this change its called 'y'.

The next step after learning functions is learning differentiation and integration. Differentiation is just the gradient of the graph at anyone point and integration is the area under the graph at any one point. Good luck.

Maths is a language on its own, the universal language, but recent sudies have shown that it is important for a child to learn a lnaguage at a reasonably early age. Once the constructs are in place then they will find it easier to learn other languages in the future. Leave it too late and they will find it difficult to pick up. Its like learning to drive a car. Learn at 17 not a problem. Try and learn at 40 and it takes a lot longer apparently.

[anna]

Seldom tested verbally by a biblical scholar. I dare say Greeks speak a lot of Greek.

Learn Latin and you need not learn how to speak it as it is rarely spoken. Tests are available in spoken Latin but are rare and seldom compulsory to a qualification. Keep up. You don't speak any foreign languages and so aren't in a postion to teach them.

I've read that there are different kinds or dialects of Greek so if you are speaking Greek you need to learn that kind of Greek rather then Biblical Greek or other forms of Greek that were used in Literature. I think learning Biblical Greek, Latin, and Hebrew would help if you are studying written documents or literature, but speaking a foreign language would require more then just knowledge of grammar and syntax because you are communicating with another person from a different culture.

I tried to help this girl in my English Literature class, but I couldn't because English was not her primary language and she comes from a completely different culture then I come from. She had very good grammar and syntax skills, but her verbal skills and lack of experience living in America made it difficult to talk to her. It takes patience and humility as well as a solid understanding of ones own mother language(ie culture) to speak a foreign language much less your own language to a person who doesn't speak much American English.

[No Worries]

I've read that there are different kinds or dialects of Greek so if you are speaking Greek you need to learn that kind of Greek rather then Biblical Greek or other forms of Greek that were used in Literature. I think learning Biblical Greek, Latin, and Hebrew would help if you are studying written documents or literature, but speaking a foreign language would require more then just knowledge of grammar and syntax because you are communicating with another person from a different culture.

I tried to help this girl in my English Literature class, but I couldn't because English was not her primary language and she comes from a completely different culture then I come from. She had very good grammar and syntax skills, but her verbal skills and lack of experience living in America made it difficult to talk to her. It takes patience and humility as well as a solid understanding of ones own mother language(ie culture) to speak a foreign language much less your own language to a person who doesn't speak much American English.

The great thing about Latin is it teaches the way a language is built up. It helps in understanding the English language, but I can remember travelling around Europe when it was still fresh in my head and it was surprising how much it came in handy with understanding other languages (as many are derived from Latin). It doesn't mean you can speak the other languages but you can certainly read stuff and get the gist. Handy when reading a menu in a language you don't speak.

[anna]

Math is just one of those things that you have to practice and practice to be able to do. Its the mind's equivalent of gymnastics.



Excellent point. You don't realise what you didn't know until you've learnt about it. You may think you are in a great position to homeschool but in actual fact you know very little about what you are teaching unless you have studied each subject in depth. Its nigh on impossible to learn each subject in depth so you must rely on teachers. That doesn't mean that if a teacher isn't doing their job that you have to accept it. I'm assuming everybody wants what is best for their child. It is important then that I accept that I cannot teach my child languages/sports/geography/biology/etc. to the extent that someone else can.



f(x)=y is a function. The 'f' stands for funtion. A function does something to something. In this case it does something to the 'x' value which is why the 'x' is in brackets by the 'f'. When this something is done to the 'x' value then what the answer is, is called the 'y'.

A graph is simply a plot of what happens to the 'x' value, whatever it may be once it has undergone change by a function. Once it has undergone this change its called 'y'.

The next step after learning functions is learning differentiation and integration. Differentiation is just the gradient of the graph at anyone point and integration is the area under the graph at any one point. Good luck.

Maths is a language on its own, the universal language, but recent sudies have shown that it is important for a child to learn a lnaguage at a reasonably early age. Once the constructs are in place then they will find it easier to learn other languages in the future. Leave it too late and they will find it difficult to pick up. Its like learning to drive a car. Learn at 17 not a problem. Try and learn at 40 and it takes a lot longer apparently.

I think it must be tough being a parent. If I was a parent I would consider homeschooling and hire tutors and I would also consider private school. I know I don't have all the answers and I never will, but one thing is for certain: I would take an active part in my child's education if I had a child. I am not against homeschooling because I think that there are parents who could easily do better then the public schools. I am not talking Calculus or Advanced Writing skills(but even there the schools and universitys fail too). I am talking some of the more basic skills. I think when you know you have to teach others, you learn more yourself because you have to and when you know you can't teach something then you hire someone to teach it or send your child to a good school. I think that whatever situation you're in you have to be realistic and do the best you can with what you have.

Math does seem to be its own language which is why I have respect for those who understand it very well. I understand your verbal explanation of functions, but I know I don't know it yet, because I haven't done the math to know for sure. True in most cases the older you are the harder it is to learn things that require more cognitive ability to learn them, but sometimes when you look at the same problem as a young person and look at it again when you are older, you can see things more clearly. I think that most of learning is influenced by your attitude and your health.

[No Worries]

I think it must be tough being a parent. If I was a parent I would consider homeschooling and hire tutors and I would also consider private school. I know I don't have all the answers and I never will, but one thing is for certain: I would take an active part in my child's education if I had a child. I am not against homeschooling because I think that there are parents who could easily do better then the public schools. I am not talking Calculus or Advanced Writing skills(but even there the schools and universitys fail too). I am talking some of the more basic skills. I think when you know you have to teach others, you learn more yourself because you have to and when you know you can't teach something then you hire someone to teach it or send your child to a good school. I think that whatever situation you're in you have to be realistic and do the best you can with what you have.

I firmly believe in teaching you own kids but in addition to school. If the public school is sub standard then I believe you have a responsibility to your kids to find a good school or to sort that school out. I don't believe in not sending kids to school.



Math does seem to be its own language which is why I have respect for those who understand it very well. I understand your verbal explanation of functions, but I know I don't know it yet, because I haven't done the math to know for sure. True in most cases the older you are the harder it is to learn things that require more cognitive ability to learn them, but sometimes when you look at the same problem as a young person and look at it again when you are older, you can see things more clearly. I think that most of learning is influenced by your attitude and your health.

True, and as you get older you are willing to learn rather than it being expected.

An important aspect of college and further education is the maturing and social learning one does too.

[anna]

The great thing about Latin is it teaches the way a language is built up. It helps in understanding the English language, but I can remember travelling around Europe when it was still fresh in my head and it was surprising how much it came in handy with understanding other languages (as many are derived from Latin). It doesn't mean you can speak the other languages but you can certainly read stuff and get the gist. Handy when reading a menu in a language you don't speak.


I have heard this too and am thinking about taking Latin in school as a general elective. I don't have to speak it and it will improve my comprehension skills.

One of the things I am learning more and more about computer programming is the need for good communication skills. The relationships between modifiers and parts of a sentance help to understand how to write code that follows specific guidelines. You see relationships between words and you see the structure in human languages and it helps you to understand the relationships between programming concepts so that it takes less time to write code because you have a better idea of where to begin translating the abstract ideas into the concrete instructions you give to the computer. This too can be frustrating to learn, but so is anything that is new to me :chuckle:

[ebenz47037]

See you don't understand the concept of mechanisms. Yes some children learn by hands on approach and others prefer books. But regardless of how you teach them they still have to learn mechanisms which is why math and latin/a foreign language is important. Math teaches logic and approach, a foreign language teaches construct.
Regardless of what way a child is most responsive, certain mechanisms must be taught. In history it would be to present a balanced argument when arguing from a certain perspective and to address the question throughout.

To just teach a subject is wrong, the approach of the subject is just as vital. Its why in math you can get the all the wrong answers in a test but still get 90% . Method is crucial.

No but thats the second time somebody on TOL has mentioned me and teaching.
If I wantded to qualify though it wouldonly take me a few months as I've worked in industry and have the relevant qualifications. It would be a fast track thing.

You should have requested that the teacher be removed from the school, she admitted she was not capable of doing her job. I don't understand though if your child was racing ahead of the others then why she came back with Cs and Ds when she'd been As and Bs. What it suggests to me is that she may have specific knowledge in certain ares but lacks on an overall foundation. If someone gets As and Bs at ninth grade they should be able to sit 8th grade exams and get all 'A's. Again it suggests a lack of foundation and methodology to the teaching.

The Cs and Ds were in the fourth grade. When I taught Spanish at a private school, when she was in sixth grade, she did a lot better. Part of that was because I was there to make sure she did her work. The other part was that, according to the principal, she was the "smartest kid in the school." Mrs. E told me this when I had to withdraw her because I couldn't afford the tuition, uniforms, lunches, and transportation. When they did the state testing, :jessilu: scored high 10th grade for English/grammar, math, and science; 11th grade for history/social studies; and 12th grade + for reading and comprehension. So, I know, she's at least at "grade level" for everything.

The problem in the fourth grade was that the teacher didn't make her do her work. She gave her a choice to do it or not to. When you give a nine year old that kind of choice, what do you think they're going to choose?

[ebenz47037]

ebenz: There is a substantive difference between "origins" and evolutionary theory. And evolution is not "just a theory". You need to understand what science means by theory. Others have explained that very well on this board elsewhere. I recommend looking at a harvey and stratnerds comments on various threads.

I would be interested on the Christian "positions" on the topics they list.

I don't know if my belief on evolution is a Christian position or not. It's just what I believe about it. I've believed this since I was 15 and my ninth grade anthropology teacher tried to tell me that man evolved from apes. I don't think so. I've never heard of anyone finding any transitional fossils that can prove that.

I believe that, instead of evolving, man has steadily be devolving. We're on an upswing now. But, in general, we're getting shorter, not using as much of our brains as our ancestors, and living shorter lifespans; if you take out the artificial means that science has come up with. Besides, with all the "neandertals" I've met, you would question evolution too. :chuckle:

I've read some of Stratnerd's and aharvey's posts. That's one reason I tend to stay out of science discussions. I'm way out of my league with them.

And, you say that "origins studies" and evolution are two different subjects. I consider evolution part of origins studies since we are studying the origins of man.

[anna]

I firmly believe in teaching you own kids but in addition to school. If the public school is sub standard then I believe you have a responsibility to your kids to find a good school or to sort that school out. I don't believe in not sending kids to school.




True, and as you get older you are willing to learn rather than it being expected.

An important aspect of college and further education is the maturing and social learning
one does too.

I don't really know whether I think no school is good or bad. I consider homeschool because it looks like you can spend more time teaching your own kids. There is more quality time between parent and child which I think is very important for kids. They need the correction and support of their parents to have the discipline and confidence to be successful as students. I think that having a more stable home life and having enough exposure to different people and ideas is a good combination. Knowing how to have this balence, though, requires wisdom.

I think that I would like to send my kids to private school and just be with them to help them with their homework and talk to them about what they are learning, but I don't know if the private schools are doing much better in other states. I would have to first get out of the state of Louisiana (where I am from and where I live) and see what is going on in other states. My parents had originally sent my sisters to some expensive private school but found out that the education was worse then the public schools so they put all of us in public schools. It was the best that my parents could do for me and I am grateful that they cared enough to make sure that I could read and write (I had a learning disability).

True. Maturity is important, but the path to maturity and social learning is different for everyone. We all learn things differently, but one thing that gives us the opportunity to learn is experience( whether it be school, on the job training, home life..etc) and the one thing that guarentees that we learn at all is humility. :)

[No Worries]

I don't know if my belief on evolution is a Christian position or not. It's just what I believe about it. I've believed this since I was 15 and my ninth grade anthropology teacher tried to tell me that man evolved from apes. I don't think so. I've never heard of anyone finding any transitional fossils that can prove that.

There's plenty of transitional fossils showing the evolution of mankind.

[No Worries]

The Cs and Ds were in the fourth grade. When I taught Spanish at a private school, when she was in sixth grade, she did a lot better. Part of that was because I was there to make sure she did her work. The other part was that, according to the principal, she was the "smartest kid in the school." Mrs. E told me this when I had to withdraw her because I couldn't afford the tuition, uniforms, lunches, and transportation. When they did the state testing, :jessilu: scored high 10th grade for English/grammar, math, and science; 11th grade for history/social studies; and 12th grade + for reading and comprehension. So, I know, she's at least at "grade level" for everything.

The problem in the fourth grade was that the teacher didn't make her do her work. She gave her a choice to do it or not to. When you give a nine year old that kind of choice, what do you think they're going to choose?

Hey it sounds like she's a seriously smart kid. The argument against the 4th grade teacher is against the 4th grade teacher not the school. If any teacher says they are incapable of teaching the smarter kids then that teacher should be taken to one side and told that teaching is not for them. One of my friends went to his kid's parents evening. The teacher said that he was a good pupil (he was only 5 at the time) but she admitted that some of the kids in the same class weren't and some times all she wanted to do was smack them. He made a point of telling her vocally in front of other parents that she should give up teaching if that were the case. She retired later that year.

I'm not saying as a parent you shouldn't teach your kids, I am saying there are some things where it is unwise to try and teach. You can't expect to be able to teach all subjects to an adequate level. The improtant thing has to be to give a good wide grounding and for that you need professionals in their own field. Its common sense though to make sure your kid is learning the stuff that is being provided and its easier enough to find out what should be being taught. If your child can't do calculus by a certain age then you take it up with the teacher or the school.

That said teachers are a valuable resource and are necessary for a broad understanding. Another important aspect of school is learning in an environment with one's peers. How do you compensate for this?

What areas do you personally struggle in? Sciences, humanities, sport science, technology, languages. There must be some areas. Like anna said, you can believe that you understand an area but it is only when you have applied to indepth study do you realise how lacking you were.

[ebenz47037]

There's plenty of transitional fossils showing the evolution of mankind.

Only ones I've heard of ended up being hoaxes. From The Edge Newsletter (http://www.theedgeam.com/evolution/hoax.htm):



Scientists Admit:
Evolution Not Supported By Facts! (http://www.theedgeam.com/evolution/scientists.htm)

Nebraska Man: How many skeletons do you think were found of Nebraska Man? 100? 50? 25? 10? How about one complete skeleton? How about half a skeleton? Maybe 1/10 of a skeleton? Hold on, Nebraska man was reconstructed from a single tooth! What is even more amazing--the tooth turned out to be a pig's tooth! How could anyone be so gullible as to believe a man could be reconstructed from a tooth? Yet many people placed their faith in Nebraska man until the hoax was exposed.

Java Man: How many skeletons do you think were found of Java Man? 100? 50? 25? 10? How about one complete skeleton? How about half a skeleton? Java Man was reconstructed from a skullcap, thighbone, and 2 molar teeth. Dr. Eugene DuBois found the thighbone 50 feet away from the skullcap, but assumed it was the same individual. After discovering human skulls at the same level near his Java Man discovery, he hid the skulls under the floorboards of his bedroom for 26 years. Before his death DuBois confessed that he had not found the missing link and admitted that Java Man was probably a giant gibbon.

Piltdown Man: In 1912 Charles Dawson reconstructed Piltdown Man out of a jaw, 2 molar teeth, and a piece of skull. In 1953 the hoax was exposed. The jawbone turned out to be that of a modern orangutan, the teeth had been filed down and the bones artificially colored to deceive the public. For over 40 years evolutionists promoted his findings as fact. The British Museum has documented other discoveries by Dawson as being fakes. Imagine if you lived during that time, placing your faith in evolution based upon Dawson's findings. Wouldn't you be a little upset when you discovered the truth?

Orce Man: Found in the southern Spanish town of Orce in 1982, and hailed as the oldest fossilized human remains ever found in Europe. One year later officials admitted the skull fragment was not human, but probably came from a 4-month old donkey. Scientists had said the skull belonged to a 17 year old man who lived 900,000 to 1.6 million years ago, and even had very detail drawings done to represent what he would have looked like. ("Skull fragment may not be human", Knoxville News-Sentinel, 1983)

Boule's Neanderthal Man: Reconstructed in 1915. Marcellin Boule wrongly arranged the foot bones so that the big toe diverged from the other toes to look like an opposing thumb. The knee joint was misplaced to give a bent-knee look. The spine was misshapen so it couldn't stand upright and the head was placed in an unbalanced position too far forward.

Boule's model of Neanderthal man was placed on display in the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago for 44 years before the mistakes were discovered! After the mistakes were disclosed, they kept it on display for another 20 years until they created a new Neanderthal model. What did they do with the old inaccurate model? Instead of throwing it in the garbage can where it belonged, they moved it to the second floor of the museum and displayed a new sign, "An Alternate View of Neanderthal." But it wasn't an alternate view. It was a wrong view.

These hoaxes should be a wake-up call that just as important as the fossils themselves is the interpretation of those fossils. Contrary to popular belief, anthropologists are not unbiased in their interpretations.

And, the article "Scientists Admit: Evolution Not Supported by the Facts! (http://www.theedgeam.com/evolution/scientists.htm)", mentioned in the title of the above article:


Scientists Admit:
Evolution Not Supported By Facts!

"Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless," says Professor Louis Bouroune, former President of the Biological Society of Strasbourg and Director of the Strasbourg Zoological Museum, later Director of Research at the French National Centre of Scientific Research, as quoted in The Advocate, March 8, 1984.

On many campuses, any professor who admits having doubts about the "factual" nature of evolution would be laughed off the campus (and out of his job). But today, more and more courageous scientists are publicly admitting what they have known privately for years: believing in evolution requires an act of blind faith.

Does evolution square with the facts? Here are the statements of several scientific leaders as found in The Quote Book, published by Creation Science Foundation Ltd.

Evolutionists Great Con Men

"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact." (Dr. T.N. Tahmisian. Atomic Energy Commission, The Fresno Bee, August 20, 1959.

"...most people assume that fossils provide a very important part of the general argument made in favor of Darwinian interpretation of the history of life. Unfortunately, this is not strictly true." (Dr. David Raup, Curator, Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago. Quoted from "Conflicts between Darwin and paleontology," Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin, Vol. 50 (1), 1979.)

Do Fossils Prove It?

"...I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transition in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them...Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils...I will lay it on the line--there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument." (Personal letter from Dr. Colin Patterson, Senior Paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History in London, to L. Sunderland.)

"Despite the bright promise that paleontology provides a means of ‘seeing' evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists, the most notorious of which is the presence of ‘gaps' in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them..." (David B. Kitts, Ph.D. -- Zoology, Head Curator, Department of Geology, Stoval Museum, and well-known evolutionary paleontologist. Evolution, Vol. 28, Sept. 1974.

But What About Those Bones?

"...not being a paleontologist, I don't want to pour too much scorn on paleontologists, but if you were to spend your life picking up bones and finding little fragments of head and little fragments of jaw, there's a very strong desire to exaggerate the importance of those fragments..." (Dr. Greg Kirby in an address given at a meeting of the Biology Teachers Association of South Australia in 1976. Dr. Kirby was the Senior Lecturer in Population Biology at Flinders University and was giving the case for evolution.)

"A five million year old piece of bone that was thought to be the collarbone of a humanlike creature is actually part of a dolphin rib...The problem with a lot of anthropologists is that they want so much to find a hominid that any scrap of bone becomes a hominid bone." (Dr. Tim White, anthropologist, University of California, Berkeley, quoted in New Scientist, April 28, 1983.

But the World Is So Old...Isn't It?

"All the above (radiometric) methods for dating the age of the earth, its various strata, and its fossils are questionable, because the rates are likely to have fluctuated widely over earth history...It is obvious that radiometric techniques may not be the absolute dating methods that they are claimed to be. Age estimates on a given geological stratum by different radiometric methods are often quite different (sometimes by hundreds of millions of years). There is no absolutely reliable long-term radiological ‘clock.' The uncertainties inherent in radiometric dating are disturbing to geologist and evolutionists..." (W.D. Stansfield, Ph.D., Instructor of Biology, California Polytech State University, The Science of Evolution, Macmillan, 1987.

Carbon-14 Will Tell Us...Won't It?

"When the blood of a seal, freshly killed at McMurdo Sound in the Antarctic was tested by carbon-14, it showed the seal had died 1,300 years ago." (From W. Dort Jr., Ph.D. -- Geology, Professor, University of Kansas, quoted in Antarctic Journal of the United States, 1971.

"The hair on the Chekurovka mammoth was found to have a carbon-14 age of 26,000 years but the peaty soil in which is was preserved was found to have a carbon-14 dating of only 5,600 years." (Radiocarbon Journal, Vol. 8, 1966.)

When Did Dinosaurs Really Live?

The existence of dinosaurs long before man came along has been almost a basic tenet of faith for the evolutionist. But what if the footprints of both man and dinosaur were found together?

In the Journal of Geological Education, Vol. 31, 1983, David H Milne and Steven D Schafersman tell us "Such an occurrence, if verified, would seriously disrupt conventional interpretations of biological and geological history and would support the doctrine of creationism and catastrophism."

Well gentlemen, not only have both man and dinosaur prints been found together in Mexico, New Mexico, Arizona, Missouri, Kentucky and Illinois, but other U.S. locations as well.

Why Do They Do It?

"One is forced to conclude that many scientists and technologists pay lip-service to Darwinian theory only because it supposedly excludes a Creator." (Dr. Michael Walker, Senior Lecturer in Anthropology, Sydney University, quoted in Quadrant, October, 1982.)

Since the facts do not prove evolution, since the fossil record does not show any transition from one species to another, since "scientific" dating methods have been proven unreliable, let us remember that for those who desperately desire to reject God, evolution is a religion of last resort. If there is no Creator, there can be no sin, and no need of a Saviour.

A. Lunn summed up the curious faith of the evolutionist as follows: "Faith is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links unseen." (The Collapse of Evolution, by Dr. Scott Huse.) Those supposedly omniscient scientists who still teach evolution as though it were fact are finally seen for what they are...frail men willing to believe a lie because it helps them avoid the truth.

[ebenz47037]

That said teachers are a valuable resource and are necessary for a broad understanding. Another important aspect of school is learning in an environment with one's peers. How do you compensate for this?

Can you tell me any field, as in career, where an adult spends eight hours a day, one hundred eighty days a year, with thirty people the same age as him/her for thirteen years? How is this preparing children for real life? Most homeschooled children socialize with people of all ages, not just their own age group. My daughter has friends her own age. I'm not worried about her relationship with peers. I'm worried about whether she will be able to stand up on her own, in real life, once she reaches adulthood.

What areas do you personally struggle in? Sciences, humanities, sport science, technology, languages. There must be some areas. Like anna said, you can believe that you understand an area but it is only when you have applied to indepth study do you realise how lacking you were.

I already know what I'm not good at. I compensate by hiring tutors or swapping a subject with another homeschooling parent.

[No Worries]

See ebenz thats what I mean.

Any link with a picture of a yeti on its first page is probably not scientific although it may pass itself off as such.

http://www.asu.edu/clas/iho/lucy.html
http://www.newscientist.com/home.ns
http://www.google.co.uk/u/Oxford?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&domains=ox.ac.uk&q=human+evolution&sitesearch=ox.ac.uk&meta=
http://search.harvard.edu:8765/query.html?col=cait&col=dce&col=fas&col=gse&col=hbs&col=hds&col=hms&col=hsdm&col=hsph&col=ksg&col=law&col=lib&col=rad&qt=+Human+evolution&charset=iso-8859-1


Are some science based sites, I recommend just visiting recognised universities though new scientist is a highly regarded edition.

With respect to human evolution and fossils, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus_afarensis
is as good a place to start your research as any. Feed the findings from there into some of the above sites and research through centres of recognised science.

[No Worries]

Can you tell me any field, as in career, where an adult spends eight hours a day, one hundred eighty days a year, with thirty people the same age as him/her for thirteen years? How is this preparing children for real life? Most homeschooled children socialize with people of all ages, not just their own age group. My daughter has friends her own age. I'm not worried about her relationship with peers. I'm worried about whether she will be able to stand up on her own, in real life, once she reaches adulthood. Standing up for yourself amongst your peers is what school teaches. You may treat your child with respect but it has to be earned in the playground just as it has to be earned in industry. Incidentally if your child works in industry then she could well be dealing with multiple people of her own age 8hrs a day. Yes some may be older and some may be younger and she will learn to treat them all the same. Age isn't as important to an adult as it is a child. In dealing with large grooups of people a child can learn amongst her peers, its not the same if she learns to deal with people that are already mature. If I'm talking to a child then I cut them some slack if they don't understand this or can't do that. A child doesn't give slack for another child just as in industry. If you can't cut it there then you don't get any slack. You just get fired. Its a dog eat dog world. Independence is learnt at school.


I already know what I'm not good at. I compensate by hiring tutors or swapping a subject with another homeschooling parent.

And what aren't you good at? Like Anna said you may think you're good at something until you study it in depth and its only then that you start to realise that before when you thought you were good at it that in fact you knew very little and 'sucked' quite a bit.

[Christine]

That's really neat. How did you learn Biblical Hebrew and Greek? I'm curious. :)
In the homeschooling market, there are a number of introductory Greek and Hebrew courses available. :)

[Christine]

Seldom tested verbally by a biblical scholar. I dare say Greeks speak a lot of Greek.
Seldom tested verbally, but Biblical Greek is still a foreign language in its own right. Also, the Greeks who live in Greece and speak Greek are speaking modern Greek, so there are some variations from that which I am familiar.

Keep up. You don't speak any foreign languages and so aren't in a postion to teach them.
I might tell you to "keep up." Never said I could fluently speak a foreign language. What I did say was I was introduced to three, and can transliterate two. If someone wanted to learn how to transliterate, I might be able to help them.

[anna]

In the homeschooling market, there are a number of introductory Greek and Hebrew courses available. :)

cool..I'll check them out. :Patrol:

[ebenz47037]

Standing up for yourself amongst your peers is what school teaches. You may treat your child with respect but it has to be earned in the playground just as it has to be earned in industry. Incidentally if your child works in industry then she could well be dealing with multiple people of her own age 8hrs a day. Yes some may be older and some may be younger and she will learn to treat them all the same. Age isn't as important to an adult as it is a child. In dealing with large grooups of people a child can learn amongst her peers, its not the same if she learns to deal with people that are already mature. If I'm talking to a child then I cut them some slack if they don't understand this or can't do that. A child doesn't give slack for another child just as in industry. If you can't cut it there then you don't get any slack. You just get fired. Its a dog eat dog world. Independence is learnt at school.

Like I said, she has friends her own age and knows how to interact with them as well as all other age groups. I think that confining her to just her own age group is unrealistic. People don't have to like it. They can raise their kids however they want to and I won't say a thing unless they're abusive.

And what aren't you good at? Like Anna said you may think you're good at something until you study it in depth and its only then that you start to realise that before when you thought you were good at it that in fact you knew very little and 'sucked' quite a bit.

I'm good at academics (math, science, reading, history, etc), foreign languages (I learn them quickly and can teach them as well), music, and writing. I'm not good at sports (with a couple of exceptions) and mechanics. I don't know why you need to know this, since I don't teach your children. I told you when I'm not good at something, I hire a tutor or switch off with another parent. Why is it so important for you to know what I'm good at and not good at?

[No Worries]

Seldom tested verbally, but Biblical Greek is still a foreign language in its own right. Also, the Greeks who live in Greece and speak Greek are speaking modern Greek, so there are some variations from that which I am familiar.


I might tell you to "keep up." Never said I could fluently speak a foreign language. What I did say was I was introduced to three, and can transliterate two. If someone wanted to learn how to transliterate, I might be able to help them.

Oh great, I was transliterating Latin when I was 14. It means you have a table of verbs and tenses and a Latin to English dictionary. Its not learning a language. So back to the argument if you were to homeschool a child in languages, as in how to read, write, listen and speak a language - you couldn't do it. You don't have the skill set.


And in educating a child, if he or she have a natural gift for languages, you could mess it up by not teaching them a second language early on. Even if you were to teach Esperanto or Spanish it would help in later life for the child if they wanted to learn an unrelated language such as German. The constructs of learning a lnaguage would be there. Thats why you get so many Europeans that don't just speak 2 languages but four or five. Same with people from Indian and the subcontinent. They are exposed to multiple languages from an early age and grow up generally being able to speak a good few different languages. The mechanisms are in place for later on in life.


Incidentally I speak Esperanto like a native :chuckle:

[anna]

Standing up for yourself amongst your peers is what school teaches. You may treat your child with respect but it has to be earned in the playground just as it has to be earned in industry. Incidentally if your child works in industry then she could well be dealing with multiple people of her own age 8hrs a day. Yes some may be older and some may be younger and she will learn to treat them all the same. Age isn't as important to an adult as it is a child. In dealing with large grooups of people a child can learn amongst her peers, its not the same if she learns to deal with people that are already mature. If I'm talking to a child then I cut them some slack if they don't understand this or can't do that. A child doesn't give slack for another child just as in industry. If you can't cut it there then you don't get any slack. You just get fired. Its a dog eat dog world. Independence is learnt at school.




And what aren't you good at? Like Anna said you may think you're good at something until you study it in depth and its only then that you start to realise that before when you thought you were good at it that in fact you knew very little and 'sucked' quite a bit.

True. It's a dog eat dog world and not only do you get this from your peers, but also from people older then you so you can learn independence from on the job training. I was working at a music store with this guy who was a lazy pot head. One morning the pot head asked me a question in front of a customer and I rebuked the pot head. The customer chuckled and said "Women should be seen and not heard" to which I replied "Well, if you want to be consistent with that logic, then I guess we could say that men should be heard and not seen" The customer said "I was just joking" and I gave him a big smile and said "so was I". I wasn't ugly to the man just to be ugly(eventhough I was angry), I was challenging the man to think before he speaks, but I didn't learn how to do that in school; I learned it by being a member of my family. It reminds me of the days when we asked our dad for jogging bras and soccer cletes; you had to present your case as if you were an attorney in front of a judge :chuckle:

[No Worries]

Like I said, she has friends her own age and knows how to interact with them as well as all other age groups. I think that confining her to just her own age group is unrealistic. People don't have to like it. They can raise their kids however they want to and I won't say a thing unless they're abusive.

Fine, its just that I think it is valuable to a child to interact with others not only in leisure time but also in a work environment.

I'm good at academics (math, science, reading, history, etc), foreign languages (I learn them quickly and can teach them as well), music, and writing. I'm not good at sports (with a couple of exceptions) and mechanics. I don't know why you need to know this, since I don't teach your children. I told you when I'm not good at something, I hire a tutor or switch off with another parent. Why is it so important for you to know what I'm good at and not good at?

For the simple reason that something you consider yourself to be good at you may in fact not be. I'm only using you as an example of a homeschooling parent. From what you have siad so far you seem to be making a better job than most. Good on yer. To illustrate my point though I will focus on the history aspect which you consider yourself good at. Teaching history isn't just about learning and recanting facts. Learning events in history is perhaps just a third of what history is about. Somebody else who said that they were doing history couldn't explain a simple model for a history essay. What she described would have been enough for C grade at 16year age. It would have failed outright for an 18year old. She wouldn't even be accepted onto a history course at university.

Again much of what history is about is extrapolating fact from opinion, evaluating and researching and then presenting that information. Take the second world war, many people read history books on it and many can argue why we went to war against Germany and can recall events. Not many can argue why the German people were willing to go to war under Hitler other than saying they were indoctrinated by a cult figure. This in reallity had only a small contribution. A trained historian would be able to argue from all angles and aspects. I might not agree with it but I am very comfortable in arguing how the Jewish holocaust was conducted and condoned from a German perspective at the time.

I'm just curious if a homeschooling parent appreciates all the fineries that a subject may hold. I believe it to be very difficult to believe that one person can be able to teach a science subject, a humanity and English all to the same level as three respective academics in their own fields.

[One Eyed Jack]

To just teach a subject is wrong, the approach of the subject is just as vital. Its why in math you can get the all the wrong answers in a test but still get 90% .

When I was in school, getting all the answers wrong on a math test would earn you a big fat zero. Enough of those, and you'd be sitting in the same class the next year.

Method is crucial.

You're right about that. I remember how they'd always count off when I didn't show my work, even if I did have the right answer.

[beefalobilly]

You don't teach history with any slant thats the point. A history teacher will teach a subject and the pupils will write an essay about that subject answering a given question in a number of different ways and all will be equally valid arguments.

For example; what were the causes for The Great War?

a) German aggression
b) French foreign policy
c) Imperialism
d) The Balkan crisis
e) Colonialism
f) A break down in communication
g) A failure to act by the internaional community
h) Politcal revolution.
i) The Franco Prussian war.
j) Power vacuum

The fact is all of these from a historians point of view can be argued. A student could answer with anyone and still get an 'A', it depends on his argument, not his orientation.

The question you ask shows that you have a poor understanding of history and how it is taught. You're education is sadly lacking.

Seriously, I've been in public schools all my life, and I've never been one to jump to the defense of home schooling, but you're just being a complete idiot.

[beefalobilly]

You're not teaching chemistry and physics this year?!?? What happens after next year when she decides biology is for her. She's not sudied it for a year. What happens if chemistry is for her and you've not taught her that for a year. Where is her time to reflect on what she is taught regarding the outside world. Teach them all the foundation subjects at once.


They don't even do that in public schools! If a school has one or two classes in a given subject, say biology or chemistry, then a studnet won't be able to study it all the time!! arrrgh, your stupidity is alarming!!!!

[No Worries]

When I was in school, getting all the answers wrong on a math test would earn you a big fat zero. Enough of those, and you'd be sitting in the same class the next year.



You're right about that. I remember how they'd always count off when I didn't show my work, even if I did have the right answer.

Which is why you can get all the wrong answers in a maths test and still get a top mark. Its the method thats important. If you make a mistake in a simple addition at the end they appreciate its the ability to know the method which is crucial. So you could get all the fianl answers wrong but show all the correct working out and get marked for the working out as long as your mistake is in the last few lines.

Usually it works that if you get the right answer then you get all the marks for that question unless the question specifically says 'show your working out' or 'prove'.

[beefalobilly]

On the high school level. I also had it in junior high and grade school. I doubt this is much different than a public school course plan.

It isn't any different, no worries is just being childish

[No Worries]

Seriously, I've been in public schools all my life, and I've never been one to jump to the defense of home schooling, but you're just being a complete idiot.

Hey all those are reasons why the 1st WW started. You can argue any one aspect as the cause that led to invasion or any combination there of. If you see it from one polarised view then your history education is sadly lacking too. Pick one and in a paragraph I'll explain how it led to the war if you don't believe me. I'll pitch my history background against yours and I don't know your background. Why do you think it is idiotic?

[No Worries]

It isn't any different, no worries is just being childish

How so? Like I say pick any one of those points and I will show how it can be argued as leading to the Great War. If someone can't appreciate that then they shouldn't be teaching history.

[beefalobilly]

Hey all those are reasons why the 1st WW started. You can argue any one aspect as the cause that led to invasion or any combination there of. If you see it from one polarised view then your history education is sadly lacking too. Pick one and in a paragraph I'll explain how it led to the war if you don't believe me. I'll pitch my history background against yours and I don't know your background. Why do you think it is idiotic?


I'm referring to your general conduct throughout the entire thread, I'm sure your history background is superior to mine, considering you've already stated you have a history degree, and I am currently only an undergrad.

[One Eyed Jack]

Which is why you can get all the wrong answers in a maths test and still get a top mark.

Being able to do it wrong isn't good enough around here.

[beefalobilly]

How so? Like I say pick any one of those points and I will show how it can be argued as leading to the Great War. If someone can't appreciate that then they shouldn't be teaching history.

See above. I don't disagree with your points on history, I just think the entire stand you're taking against home schooling is ridiculous, I'm not sure why you have this chip on your shoulder.

[No Worries]

They don't even do that in public schools! If a school has one or two classes in a given subject, say biology or chemistry, then a studnet won't be able to study it all the time!! arrrgh, your stupidity is alarming!!!!

Well they do in all the schools in Europe and Australia. All the students there have enough time. And its taught continuously from about the age of 11 through to 16/17. Physics, biology and chemistry all in one week, every week. Teach something over a longer period of time and it has longer to sink in. Its just not as intensive as what your biology class will be in one year you have to learn everything. Intensive learning means you forget it quicker. Its another reason why languages should be taught earlier it allows the methodology to be absorbed as opposed to just the words and set sentences.

[beefalobilly]

Well they do in all the schools in Europe and Australia. All the students there have enough time. And its taught continuously from about the age of 11 through to 16/17. Physics, biology and chemistry all in one week, every week. Teach something over a longer period of time and it has longer to sink in. Its just not as intensive as what your biology class will be in one year you have to learn everything. Intensive learning means you forget it quicker. Its another reason why languages should be taught earlier it allows the methodology to be absorbed as opposed to just the words and set sentences.


Then perhaps I should quit school, because all my college classes are the equivelent of one year of high school material, crammed into one semester!!! :shocked:

[No Worries]

Being able to do it wrong isn't good enough around here.

But the marker appreciates that it is a simple error rather than a hole in your knowledge. Even the guys at NASA have their work proof read over and over again and mistakes are still made in their calculations. Fact of the matter is you'd have to be cracked in the head to get every answer wrong but hypothetically it is possible to get everything (every final answer) wrong and still get a good grade. If you're doing a high level of mechanical or statistical math its assumed you know your addition. It just sucks if you can't operate a calculator properly. If its an exam without a calculator it could simply be a case of misreading one line in a table which throws everything else out. You don't fail a guy in math because he pulled his finger down a bit by accident when looking through a log table.

[No Worries]

See above. I don't disagree with your points on history, I just think the entire stand you're taking against home schooling is ridiculous, I'm not sure why you have this chip on your shoulder.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. Its just that homeschooling is really foreign to me and I can't see how it can be done effectively. When one looks at the education problems in the US I can understand to some extent but I am startled to think that a parent believes they can do the job better than a team of professionals. I can also see how somebody thinks they're doing what is right for their kid but in actual fact is teaching them nonsense.

As for my attitude throughout the whole thread as far as I am concerned I have been both polite and courteous.

If I do appear to have something against home schooling it is in light of the thread's question. I don't believe home schooling is a replacement for school education. I also think that if someone has the chance to go to university then they should take it because it is not something that can be self taught easily and accurately. A good book is great,a good tutor is priceless.

[No Worries]

Then perhaps I should quit school, because all my college classes are the equivelent of one year of high school material, crammed into one semester!!! :shocked:

Hey by that stage yo should have learnt the basics and so the foundations are there. Once the foundation work is done then you can pile it on as fast you want. Fact is if your doing a degree everything you learn will be consolidated in when you apply that to your career so you won't have time to forget it. If your career isn't in what you study and you branch off expect to forget a lot of it.

[ebenz47037]

Fine, its just that I think it is valuable to a child to interact with others not only in leisure time but also in a work environment.

And, at this time, I'm using it as an incentive for her to do her work. Besides, the public school in my area is one of the worst in the state of Indiana as far as academics go. And, I was told by the school district that, in order to send my daughter to another county's school, I would have to pay about $5000 a year plus buy/rent her books plus pay for all transportation and lunches. I spend about $500 a year on homeschooling curriculum (give or take) and about $100 a year on school supplies. And, her lunches are part of my monthly grocery shopping. I'm probably saving a total of $500 a year by homeschooling her as opposed to sending her to a better school.

For the simple reason that something you consider yourself to be good at you may in fact not be.

I can bet you, right now, that I would ace the teachers' certification test on any subject I chose to teach if I wanted to do that right now. And, I would probably pass the subjects I'm not good at.

I'm only using you as an example of a homeschooling parent. From what you have siad so far you seem to be making a better job than most. Good on yer. To illustrate my point though I will focus on the history aspect which you consider yourself good at. Teaching history isn't just about learning and recanting facts. Learning events in history is perhaps just a third of what history is about. Somebody else who said that they were doing history couldn't explain a simple model for a history essay. What she described would have been enough for C grade at 16year age. It would have failed outright for an 18year old. She wouldn't even be accepted onto a history course at university.

I was reading Christine's posts too. I think she does fine for what she's chosen as her major. If what she learned as a homeschooled student won't get her through a history course at university, a lot of high school students are in deep ****, then. She described the average "college-prep" courses required by most public high schools.

:jessilu: and I do about three months of geography every year. We also do world history, US history, and ancient history. Right now, we're working on our family tree as a history project. We're having a hard time tracing the Indian side because a lot of them were undocumented. But, we're descendants of Davey Crockett. This summer, I want to build a catapult or a trebuchet. I'll decide when it's closer to summer. :jessilu: writes a report every six weeks on the person or event, from a list I give her, of her choice. I have a hard time explaining exactly what I expect from her reports. When I see what I want, I know it. :)

Again much of what history is about is extrapolating fact from opinion, evaluating and researching and then presenting that information. Take the second world war, many people read history books on it and many can argue why we went to war against Germany and can recall events. Not many can argue why the German people were willing to go to war under Hitler other than saying they were indoctrinated by a cult figure. This in reallity had only a small contribution. A trained historian would be able to argue from all angles and aspects. I might not agree with it but I am very comfortable in arguing how the Jewish holocaust was conducted and condoned from a German perspective at the time.

I know what history is. Although I don't have a degree in history, I know a lot more than you want to give me credit for.

I'm just curious if a homeschooling parent appreciates all the fineries that a subject may hold. I believe it to be very difficult to believe that one person can be able to teach a science subject, a humanity and English all to the same level as three respective academics in their own fields.

Well, right now, I don't have much of a choice. I can't afford to send my daughter to a better school. Personally, it doesn't bother me that you're worried about whether I can teach my daughter or not. I know that I can teach her. I'm not teaching anyone else's kids right now. So, what does it matter to you whether I'm an expert in any field?

[No Worries]

Ebenz don't start taking this personally. I'm only talking about home schooling and I can opnly talk about your case because thats who I'm talking to and who is giving me feed back. I can completely appreciate that its much cheaper for you to keep your child at home and teach her there rather than spending so much to send or elsewhere or the alternative the worst school in the state. It sounds like the American school system is going from bad to worse judging by your sentiments about the local school. Thats sad for those parents that have touse the school. I can't understand wy the parents there don't grab it by the scruff and sort it out.

As for passing the teachers exam, I don't know you but I do know that the most adults couldn't do so and if they can then its far too easy to become a teacher. A degree in the specific field should be the minimum qulification for a teacher.

I was reading Christine's posts too. I think she does fine for what she's chosen as her major. If what she learned as a homeschooled student won't get her through a history course at university, a lot of high school students are in deep ****, then. She described the average "college-prep" courses required by most public high schools.

Then a lot of people are in the deep stuff, and not only that America as a whole (which I actually find hard to believe because some of your ivy league and state universities are amongst the world's finest). What I do know is what her professor is telling her is an essay answer, it isn't even close. If the style of answer she was giving (as was instructed) is the norm then history quite simply isn't being taught. Any research is meritless. Whats the point of researching something if you only see it from the professor's perspective and it is just oneperspective if the answers are so simple and construde. It is essentially channelling a student down one avenue of thought. My history tutors used to argue with me like crazy, we were like cat and dog. But everything he would argue came from sources and likewise with myself. There was just a difference in opinion but we both recognised the merits to each others case. In fact we had to argue each others merits in essay form to give weight to our own argument. Its like on this site. Not many people know much about Islam but they say Christianity is The faith. Fact is you can only argue from one side of the fence that way. Show an appeciation for Islam and an understanding of its teachings and then you can argue against it effectively. It doesn't seem like this is being done from what was said in Christine's post.

What I will say is we knew exactly what was wanted in every single essay we ever wrote. The material that was in it was different each time depending on the topic/era/question but the construct of the essay was exactly the same. The argument was always presented in a similiar manner when practicing for written examinations. When you say you know what it is you want when you see it one of my professors took great joy in tearing essays apart in front of you if it didn't have a structure. Every single essay had a set type of structure, you could identify it in everybody's work. As long as the person knew what they were talking about it guaranteed a pass grade.

My final point is that many people will believe that they have it in them to home tutor. The logic will go along the lines that they did alright at school I just need to get my child to that level. It unforunately doesn't work like that in that a teacher knows a lot more in reserve and has a lot more experience on that subject matter to fall back on. And like somebody has already said, 'you don't know what you don't know until you know some more about it.' I just think its a dangerous state of affairs, not irected at you but at homeschooling and for America as a whole, if its children are beginning to all be taught at home. Simple fact is parents (as a whole, again, not directed at you ) aren't upto it by and large. I sympathise with your situation, you have to make the best of what sounds like a bad deal (worst school in state etc.) but my own personal reaction would be to think that other parents must be in a similiar position in the community and funds can always be raised if there is a will within the community. I'd build my own school.

[Yorzhik]

No worries; you do know that, academically, home schoolers have been far and away the highest scoring group every time there is a test that involves them, right? Would that put aside your fears?

[No Worries]

No worries; you do know that, academically, home schoolers have been far and away the highest scoring group every time there is a test that involves them, right? Would that put aside your fears?

No not really it just makes me more scared of what is being taught in US schools. I must admit my initial fears have shifted. Initially it was that homeschooling can never replace the standards of a good school. My fears are now that good schools are few and far between. I'm wondering what the PTAs are doing in the US.

[ebenz47037]

No not really it just makes me more scared of what is being taught in US schools. I must admit my initial fears have shifted. Initially it was that homeschooling can never replace the standards of a good school. My fears are now that good schools are few and far between. I'm wondering what the PTAs are doing in the US.

They're being pushed into silence by the school administration and the government. I mean, look at the fact that the schools started the DARE progam. They encourage the kids to not do drugs. That's a good thing. But, they also encourage the kids to report if they suspect their parents or anyone else is doing drugs. They're teaching our kids to call the police if Mommy and Daddy spank them. They're teaching our kids to tell Mommy and Daddy not to smoke and if mom and dad don't quit smoking, some teachers encourage the kids to tear up the cigarettes. They're teaching our kids that it's okay to go completely against their parents and do what feels good.

The new no tolerance programs at schools would be okay if they didn't punish kids for bringing a plastic butter knife, to put butter on a piece of bread, to school. The no drugs programs would be great if the young teenage girls didn't get in trouble for having Midol in their purses or pockets.

The schools like to say they want more parental involvement. But, what they really mean nowadays is that they want more financial backing. The more money we put into the federal education system, the worse it's gotten.

I'm sorry to get on a rant here. But, I've had to deal with the worst schools I've ever seen in my life, since having my daughter. In fact, at the first public school she attended ( a grand total of three weeks in the second grade before the teacher suggested that we homeschool because she was too smart for public school...paraphrased...), the week after I withdrew her to start homeschooling, her teacher's ex-husband came into the second grade classroom with a gun and held the entire class hostage because he wanted his ex-wife to come back to him.

[No Worries]

They're being pushed into silence by the school administration and the government. I mean, look at the fact that the schools started the DARE progam. They encourage the kids to not do drugs. That's a good thing. But, they also encourage the kids to report if they suspect their parents or anyone else is doing drugs. They're teaching our kids to call the police if Mommy and Daddy spank them. They're teaching our kids to tell Mommy and Daddy not to smoke and if mom and dad don't quit smoking, some teachers encourage the kids to tear up the cigarettes. They're teaching our kids that it's okay to go completely against their parents and do what feels good.

The new no tolerance programs at schools would be okay if they didn't punish kids for bringing a plastic butter knife, to put butter on a piece of bread, to school. The no drugs programs would be great if the young teenage girls didn't get in trouble for having Midol in their purses or pockets.

The schools like to say they want more parental involvement. But, what they really mean nowadays is that they want more financial backing. The more money we put into the federal education system, the worse it's gotten.

I'm sorry to get on a rant here. But, I've had to deal with the worst schools I've ever seen in my life, since having my daughter. In fact, at the first public school she attended ( a grand total of three weeks in the second grade before the teacher suggested that we homeschool because she was too smart for public school...paraphrased...), the week after I withdrew her to start homeschooling, her teacher's ex-husband came into the second grade classroom with a gun and held the entire class hostage because he wanted his ex-wife to come back to him.


Well if thats how bad it is then I have to admit I'd be homeschooling as well if I couldn't get her into a good school. I still maintain that a good school is better than homeschooling. I believe homeschooling is important anyway but on top of normal school. Its easy for me to say this or that, obviously I don't live in that environment and I am fortunate in that I am in a position where I could pack up and move to another if I ever needed to and work would follow.

But if this is the case I would have thought the government and private investors would be falling over to provide cash for small localised, community ran schools to be set up, almost ran like small businesses. Are there not any enterprise schemes and small bursaries for such community style projects?

[ebenz47037]

But if this is the case I would have thought the government and private investors would be falling over to provide cash for small localised, community ran schools to be set up, almost ran like small businesses. Are there not any enterprise schemes and small bursaries for such community style projects?

The government is busy paying for the substandard eduacation our children get at public schools. And, a lot of the private investors believe the claptrap that the NEA has pushed about only professional educators are qualified to teach our children.

There is a movement (it's small though) that's trying to get the government out of the schools. It's called The Alliance for the Seperation of School & State (http://www.sepschool.org/). That's the only one I know of. Their goals are:

# Parents, not local, state, federal, or international politicians, would decide how much schooling is best for their children.
# Parents, not politicians, would decide what content should be taught.
Parents—through their choice of schools—not politicians, would decide which schooling method is best for their children.
Financially strapped and poor parents will receive tuition assistance from family, friends, and scholarship funds set up for that purpose. We'll return to the voluntary approach that worked so well for 220 years in America. No longer would politicians force Peter to pay for Paul's children's school.


I don't agree with everything they stand for/believe in. But, this is just a beginning. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the national education system shut down and turned over to parents and businesses.

[No Worries]

The government is busy paying for the substandard eduacation our children get at public schools. And, a lot of the private investors believe the claptrap that the NEA has pushed about only professional educators are qualified to teach our children.

There is a movement (it's small though) that's trying to get the government out of the schools. It's called The Alliance for the Seperation of School & State (http://www.sepschool.org/). That's the only one I know of. Their goals are:

# Parents, not local, state, federal, or international politicians, would decide how much schooling is best for their children.
# Parents, not politicians, would decide what content should be taught.
Parents—through their choice of schools—not politicians, would decide which schooling method is best for their children.
Financially strapped and poor parents will receive tuition assistance from family, friends, and scholarship funds set up for that purpose. We'll return to the voluntary approach that worked so well for 220 years in America. No longer would politicians force Peter to pay for Paul's children's school.


I don't agree with everything they stand for/believe in. But, this is just a beginning. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the national education system shut down and turned over to parents and businesses.

Change the word 'parents' for 'teachers' in the second and third parts and I am in complete agreement if those teachers are not ruled by a govermental body. Let industry and the professions dictate what syllabus is required. At least that way there'll be jobs for them after it all.

[bilbo]

should women go to college?
of course, women are better organisers than men, it's important for them to have the education necessary for both them and society to better utilise their abilities.

[Christine]

NW, what country do you live in?

[No Worries]

NW, what country do you live in?
:chuckle: I smell a snap ambush.

Currently in England and Scotland. I generally spend 4 or 5 days a month in France too.

If you're planning to research the school education systems over here as I suspect you are then to be thorough I grew up in Australia (I'm Australian but with dual citizenship) and am thinking of moving to Slovenia. If you want to research schooling in Slovenia too that would be great because I haven't yet. It will be interesting to see what you dig up.

Thankyou

[BillyBob]

Commies.....all of them.

[Christine]

:chuckle: I smell a snap ambush.

Currently in England and Scotland. I generally spend 4 or 5 days a month in France too.

If you're planning to research the school education systems over here as I suspect you are then to be thorough I grew up in Australia (I'm Australian but with dual citizenship) and am thinking of moving to Slovenia. If you want to research schooling in Slovenia too that would be great because I haven't yet. It will be interesting to see what you dig up.

Thankyou

NW, I haven't the time or interest to research the education systems of all those countries. What I simply want to know, now, is have you ever researched the system of the U.S.? Since you're criticizing us, you'd better know a bit about how things are done "over here."

[BillyBob]

NW, I haven't the time or interest to research the education systems of all those commie countries.

Exactly!

[No Worries]

NW, I haven't the time or interest to research the education systems of all those countries. What I simply want to know, now, is have you ever researched the system of the U.S.? Since you're criticizing us, you'd better know a bit about how things are down "over here."

Its you lot that are doing the criticizing. I started off saying home tutoring is a bad idea - in any country. I've now come round to the idea that its a decidedly good idea if its as bad was what Americans have told me. Apparently taxes are being poured into it and its not getting any better. I've even said that your ivy league and state universities are amongst the worlds finest (especially M.I.T.). Fact is it sounds like liberalism, or something, has taken hold in some areas, going from what Ebenz was saying.

That said somebody else has PMd me saying that all 4 of his kids went to public school and by the sounds of it are having or are about to have unbelievable professional careers so its like any country: good and bad. What is startling is that it sounds like no amount of money seems to be able to turn a bad school good and the government are doing little to change it apart from charge you guys more tax dollars even when more and more of you are homeschooling.

The point I was making was that homeschooling is not better than a good school which is apoint I will stand by. But if a good school isn't available you do what you have to do. Some will cope well with it, it sounds like Ebenz's child is doing very well from what she's said, but you have to recognise that not all people will cope as well and there is a danger of thinking one is doing a good job when in actual fact your child is being let down. A well trained teacher with a relevant degree will always trump what a parent can teach. Thats not a slant on the parent its just one's had proper training and education in a certain subject.

[Christine]

I'll take that as a "no" you had no idea that in the U.S. we learn science courses one at a time, seldom learn more than one foreign language, seldom take math past algebra, etc.

[No Worries]

I'll take that as a "no" you had no idea that in the U.S. we learn science courses one at a time, seldom learn more than one foreign language, seldom take math past algebra, etc.

Hey I know a bit about the American education system but obviously not as much as you guys - you live there. I just see international math league results, hear about evolution being argued over its rightful place in the curriculum and then that kids are being pulled out of the school by the parents because they're so worried about the state of it all. But then I also hear about some of your universities and they're obviously filling them with people from somewhere so somewhere the schools are doing a good job, you have some of the finest students in the world. I presume they too come through the education system (I know they do actually because as I said somebody as already PMd that, he sounded as proud as punch and I can't blame him either).

If you want me to tell you some Australian or English horror stories I'll be only too glad. Fact is though I don't think they're any where near as bad as what I'm hearing from across the Atlantic.

Science courses one at a time, I still maintain, is a bad idea. Most schools as a rule only teach one foreign language but there is usually the option to study two. I personally had the choice of French, German and Latin and could have swung Spanish had I wanted it. As it was I had to do French and I chose Latin as a second. When you say seldom go past algebra what do you mean? I understand you do some algebra but you must do statistics, mechanics, geometry and applied math as well. Its to what level you push these areas of math that is important...you have to do them to some degree.

[ebenz47037]

No Worries, this is a list of a college-prep high school class preference in the US. This is what the colleges have told the high schools to offer as college-prep.

From http://www.collegeboard.com/article/0,,2-7-0-33,00.html

4 years of English (including literature, writing/composition, and speech)
4 years of math ( including algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, and trigonometry or calculus {Most schools here combine algebra 2 and trig})
3 years of science (1 year of earth science or chemistry, 1 year of biology, and 1 year of physics)
2 years of a foreign language (most schools offer French and Spanish; some offer German as well)
3 years of social studies (including geography, US history, world history, and government/economics; most schools require four years)

When I was in high school, they also required 4 years of physical education or team sports, 1 year year of music or art, and typing/keyboarding. All of the college-prep courses were labelled either "college-prep" or "advanced."

[Lord Vader]

Hi everyone,

This question is for Lucky, but other Christians are welcome to post as well.

I've often wondered about my role as a woman in society. I know the scripture says women are helpmates and I have also learned in other books and from my own experienes that women are responders while men are the ones who initiate.

If any man or woman is to fulfill the basic roles that God had intended them to fill, it is only reasonable to say that education is (in itself) necessary to draw out the talents or gifts that God has given to each of us so that each person can serve others more effectively.

At this point I see no problem in women going to college since college would give some opportunity to learn some basic learning tools such as reading, writing, and mathematics. Of course as a public school student going to a public university, I am fully aware of the amount of bull (to be frank) that students have to learn in order to gain access to some classes that could be useful for basic skills. So I know that colleges don't really educate people but rather brainwash them, but I know that there is at least some things that could possibly be beneficial.

Just so you know. I am currently a Computer Science Major who is seriously thinking of changing her major, but can't see any possible alternative at this point because the Computer Science curriculum has more classes that could be useful in developing skills in Mathematics (my weak spot) and the sciences (which I find myself drawn to more so then Literature at this time). I guess I am confused because Computer Science is a field that primarily men go into and if I go into this field, I may find that I would possibly be more in competition with men rather then one who is a "helper". :think:

thanks

anna

A lot of those guys aren't especially talented mathematicians, either. This is why by the third year science classes have become very small - and the ratio of men and women gets closer to one. Some guys probably hang on longer because of testosterone and ego. Being honest about where your calling lay is likely the smartest way to go. As an aside, I didn't think comp. sci. required a load of math; maybe I'm thinking of an associates degree.

If I may totally digress: if I were King I would abolish schools and institute apprenticeships. Then I would abolish all lending practices - that is, no loans, no credit. You earn what you need and you pay for what you need free and clear. Anything else is a scam. I just recently read about John Holt turning down an honorary degree... if he wasn't my hero before! My life goal is now to have a university call me up to award me an honorary degree so that I can go to the ceremony and refuse it. I could then die.