An interaction between Orthodox Preterism and Conditionalism

[Eugene]

Jesus taught us to pray, “Thy kingdom come” (Matthew 6:10). If you go to your favorite online Bible (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible) and search for the phrase “kingdom of God” or “kingdom of heaven” and try to take in all the glory of what that phrase meant, I believe you will be thrilled as you try to absorb it all and comprehend all of the wondrous, glorious good news. Preterists say, the kingdom of God, redemption and indeed, the blessed hope, arrived with the destruction of apostate Judaism. I must protest and I have protested. The kingdom Jesus directed us to pray for and look forward to is a glorious kingdom. He never asked us to pray for anything less.

On another thread, The Preterist Chimera is Easily Refuted (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2690), I asked the orthodox preterist Dee Dee Warren to exegete the following parallel* passages.

1. Then He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.” Luke 21:29-30.

2. “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Luke 21:28.

3. “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:36.I made my view clearly known:

Item number 1 points to Matthew 25:31-46. In brief, “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.”

Item number 2 points to redemption. When does that arrive? “We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.” Romans 8:22-23.

Item number 3 refers to “standing before the Son of Man.” This too is Matthew 25:31-46. “We will all stand before the judgment seat of God” (Romans 14:10). This judgment isn’t a limited, temporal punishment as in 70AD. It’s the final judgment. “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10).

* The word parallel means 1) Having comparable parts, analogous aspects, or readily recognized similarities. 2) Having the same direction or tendency; running side by side; being in accordance (with); tending to the same result. 3) Continuing a resemblance through many particulars; applicable in all essential parts; like; similar. 4) Having identical or equivalent syntactic constructions in corresponding clauses or phrases.

Here are some parallels:

1. “when you see these things happening”
2. “when these things begin to take place”
3. “these things that are about to take place”

1. When / see these things happening / recognize / what’s coming (the kingdom) / how quickly (soon)
2. When / these things begin to take place / straighten up and lift up your heads / your redemption / is drawing near
3. … / immediacy: be watchful and alert at all times / pray for strength / to stand before the Son of Man / about to take place

1. The kingdom of God is near
2. Your redemption is drawing near
3. The time to stand before the Son of Man is about to take place.

OK. Now we understand the preterist’s conclusions. The kingdom of God and apostolic redemption arrived with the destruction of apostate Judaism. As for the prophesied event of standing before the Son of Man in 70AD, Dee Dee explained it thusly:

We “stand” before God in many ways. In Ephesians 6 we are commanded to stand firm in spiritual warfare, in Colossians 4:12 Paul prays for the believers to stand perfect and complete, in Philipians 4:1 we are to stand fast in the Lord, etc.

The “Kingdom of God” has already referred to different contexts and stages, and there is no Biblical reason for thinking that this phrase does not as well. The living Christians were vindicated at the fall of Jerusalem. They stood before the Lord victorious. You and I are always standing before the Lord. The Lukan context … seems to be aimed only at the believers who survive.Here are some Bible quotes for the apostles expecting the blessed hope in their day:

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God,... Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless. 2 Pe 3:11-14.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. Phil 3:20.

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 1 John 2:28.

... so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus. 1 Thess 3:13.

... awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Tit 2:13.

... as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ; who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 1:7,8.

You turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess 1:9,10.

Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and ... keep the commandment without stain or reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time. 1 Tim 6:12-15.

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18.

The end of all things is at hand. 1 Pe 4:7.

... The appointed time has grown very short. 1 Cor 7:29.

... The ends of the ages have come. 1 Cor 10:11.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son. Heb 1:1,2.

Now ... at the consummation of the ages. Heb 9:26.

... a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Pe 1:5.

For He ... appeared in these last times for the sake of you. 1 Pe 1:20.

For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay. Heb 10:37.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall... 1 Thess 4:15.

You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. ... behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. James 5:8,9.

But they shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 1 Pe 4:5.That is preterism. It is based on the infallibility of the Bible writers and the preterists’ unique misunderstanding of the Olivet Discourse. Preterists force everything into a first century perspective. They say that everything expected actually took place. I say that it obviously did not.

My view is as follows:

Contextual Realism

I agree that the grammatical-historical hermeneutic is the most obvious way to interpret text. All ordinary communication uses this principle and I can’t see how to communicate without it. I therefore accept, at face-value, the many Bible texts that indicate Christ’s prophesied /intended return in the first century. I also accept the many texts which anticipate the Second Coming to arrive in the lifetime of the New Testament writers. I do not presuppose it happened just because it was predicted /anticipated.

What I’m proposing is a whole new paradigm for prophetic interpretation. I’m saying that Jesus prophesied a complete end-time scenario for the first century (in the Olivet Discourse), which in fact hit all the major catastrophes, and that the revealing, coming, kingdom of God, redemption, and standing before the Son of Man, is to be understood in its ultimate eschatological sense. I’m also saying that Jesus inserted a disclaimer. There would be a delay in His return.

Here’s some brief commentary:

Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:1-3.Jesus did not answer His disciples by taking up separately the destruction of Jerusalem and the great day of His coming. He mingled the description of these two events. Had He opened to His disciples future events as He beheld them, they would have been unable to endure the sight. In mercy to them He blended the description of the two great crises, leaving the disciples to study out the meaning for themselves. In this way, a distinct first century application was mixed with the great day of Christ’s Second Coming.

Here are the facts. In Matthew 24, Jesus presented two irreconcilable kinds of prophecies that are blended together in a seemingly compatible way. One prophecy is an exact, unmistakable delineation of future events. The other insists on your ignorance of the future and cautions you to be ready no matter what.

Most of these distinctions are in two consecutive pieces: Mt 24:1-35 and Mt 24:36-51. I think of the first prophecy as a possible end of the world in the first century. The focus in the second half is in parable form and concerns a certain indeterminable future.

Jesus continues His instruction about the second scenario in Matthew 25:

“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom” (Mt 25:1).

Verse 5 is a key verse:

“Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep” (Mt 25:5).

Following the parable of the Ten Virgins, Christ tells the parable of the Talents. Note the parallel idea:

“After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them” (Mt 25:19).

I’m not basing my interpretation on the contrast between prophecy and parable alone. The book of Daniel contains clear precedent for multiple scenarios and that’s the basis for Jesus’ multi-scenario eschatology.

No major doctrine should be based on a parable. That is the preterists’ error. Daniel’s two-scenario eschatology is the issue we should be debating. Click here (http://www.everythingimportant.org/seventhdayAdventists/eschatology5.htm) for a very brief yet comprehensive summary of Daniel’s two-scenario eschatology.

One last point:

Preterists need to give more weight to the powerful disclaimer given by Jesus. I honestly don’t believe that they can exegete the parables and dogmatically conclude that they were intended only for the apostolic church.

Therefore:

“Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch. Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ” Mark 13:33-37.

[Eugene]

When did the kingdom of God come?

[70AD]. It was at that point that the Christian community was finally and irrevocably severed from her apostate mother Judaism and recognized as a distinct community of faith. It was the vindication that Jesus was right and the terribly visible recognition of the fact in the punishment of the apostates. It was a continuation of what was already inaugurated when all power and authority and judgment was given unto Him. —Dee Dee Warren, Orthodox Preterist.When did apostolic redemption arrive?

“Salvation” can have several and varying meaning, so can redemption. Very often it simply means deliverance. The Christian community was delivered from this calamity and delivered out of the hands of the Jews. Also, in postmillennial preteristic thought, this is the age of the regeneration, the age of the redemption, which is the Messianic Age. That is what was drawing near about them. God is reconciling creation to Himself during the working of the age as Christ is ruling in the midst of His foes. —Dee Dee Warren, Orthodox Preterist.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Eugene:

I must seem totally like a complaining shrew to you at this point, but really.... do you have some sort of passive aggressive thing with me??? When I have ever "whined"??? Please, please refrain from those sorts of comments with me. I don't have time for them, and I have not treated you that way. You know from prior experience with me that I know how to play the B word and I am trying really, really not to do that with you, but I must say that you are really testing my resolve. Do you really want me to totally remove the gloves and brings out the claws??? I thought we could keep this pleasant. I am asking for you to refrain from this overly inflammatory tactics. This is the last time I am going to ask.

Thank you so much for starting this thread by the way....

[Evangelion]

Looks like she's whining alread! :D

[SteveT]

1. Then He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.” Luke 21:29-30.

So, here's the question: when is the kingdom of heaven?

"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and men of violence take it by force." Mt 11:12

Seems to indicate that the kingdom of heaven was already here and being attacked "from the days of John the Baptist".

" But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. " Mt 12:28

Seems to confirm the above.

"Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, `Lo, here it is!' or `There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." Lk 17:20-21

Ditto, this time in answer to an explicit question about the timing. But, Eugene would have us believe the kingdom still hasn't come. IMHO, where the king is, there is the kingdom, and the king is here. When did Christ's reign begin?

"But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. [24] Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father AFTER destroying every rule and every authority and power. [25] For he must REIGN UNTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet." 1 Cor 15:23-25

"Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Mt 16:28

Christ is on the throne now - the kingdom is here.
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2. “But when these things BEGIN to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Luke 21:28.

When is the redemption? Certainly not at the END of when all these things take place, but rather at the beginning.

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree" Gal 3:13

Here, the redemption is in the past tense.

"Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. " Heb 9:15

These and many others show the redemption took place at the cross. 4 verses up from the passage Eugene cited (v32) Jesus emphatically says:

"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till ALL has taken place."

If the redemption spoken of in v. 28 didn't occur within one generation, as Eugene is insisting, then Jesus was just flat out wrong.
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3. “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape ALL these things that ARE ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:36.

"when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him." Dt 18:22

Again, if "all these things" that were "about to take place" in fact weren't "about to take place", Jesus was just flat out wrong, and that is highly problemmatic to say the least. Eugene makes much of "stand" here, but the exhortation to hold fast so that you personally may stand when the judgment day finally comes is all over the NT, and in no way indicates that the exhortation applies only to those living in the last days.

[Eugene]

I don’t deny that the kingdom and salvation came at the cross.

And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.” —Revelation 12:7-10.The arrival of the kingdom at the cross was only in a legal sense based on Christ’s substitutionary atonement. If you were to read Christ’s teachings on the kingdom, you would see that there’s a greater fulfillment of the kingdom promise that is yet to come.

You must appreciate Scripture’s “now/not yet” phenomena that Dee Dee is always quoting. This is where the Bible writers often say that an event has come and then say we are waiting for it. Some examples are:

The Kingdom of heaven: Christ says it was among them right then (Matthew 12:28, Luke 17:21), but then also said that they were waiting for it (Matthew 6:10, Luke 21:31)

The Adoption: Paul says that we have received a spirit of adoption as sons (Romans 8:15), and John says that we are now children of God (1 John 3:2), but Paul also says that we are waiting for our adoption (Romans 8:23)

Salvation: We have been saved (Eph 2:8, 2 Tim. 1:9), we are being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, Phil 2:12-13), we are waiting to be saved (Acts 15:11, 1 Peter 1:9)

Eternal Life: We have it now (John 6:47), we are waiting for it (Mark 10:30)

Judgment: the world has been judged (John 12:31), the world will be judged (Matthew 12:41, Hebrews 9:27)

Death: It has been abolished (2 Timothy 1:10), it will be abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26)

Do you get the idea?

[Eugene]

SteveT,

I don’t believe you are qualified to talk about timing. You’re the one (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2690) who interpreted Luke 21:28 as saying, “When the apocalyptic end-time disasters begin to fall, straighten up and lift up your heads, because Christ’s death on the cross is about to happen.”

Recall page 2 of A Conditionalist Interpretation of the Apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2600) (07-10-2002 10:46 AM and 07-11-2002 08:32 PM).

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear SteveT:

I am very glad to see you brother. Thank you for your input. You showed greater patience than I have been exhibiting.

Dear Eugene:

I am sorry Eugene but you need to retract that last statement you made about Steve. I read that thread and he said no such thing. You misinterpreted him as meaning that, but it is apparent that he meant no such thing. That is unfair, and you need to retract that.

[Eugene]

Regretfully Dee Dee,

I hear SteveT stating the same absurdity on this thread:

“But when these things BEGIN to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Luke 21:28.

When is the redemption? Certainly not at the END of when all these things take place, but rather at the beginning.Translation:

“When the apocalyptic end-time disasters begin to fall, straighten up and lift up your heads, because Christ’s death on the cross is about to happen.”

Explanation:
Chimera

1. A fire-breathing she-monster usually represented as a composite of a lion, goat, and serpent.
2. An imaginary monster made up of grotesquely disparate parts.
3. A vain, foolish, or incongruous fancy, or creature of the imagination; as, the chimera of an author. Expiation?

You commend Steve for showing greater patience than you (as if it takes greater virtue to resist the truth than you possess) and he is propagating mythical chimera.

[Eugene]

What I’m proposing is a whole new paradigm for prophetic interpretation. I’m saying that Jesus prophesied a complete end-time scenario for the first century (in the Olivet Discourse), which in fact hit all the major catastrophes, and that the revealing, coming, kingdom of God, redemption, and standing before the Son of Man, is to be understood in its ultimate eschatological sense. I’m also saying that Jesus inserted a disclaimer. There would be a delay in His return.I would like to restate the fact that this thread is titled “An interaction between Orthodox Preterism and Conditionalism.” For those of you who don’t understand my words and are clueless about conditionalism, may I suggest that you exercise some of the Christian virtues (like patience) and watch the informed adults discuss this before posting off-the-mark comments? And have you ever thought about asking questions or just keeping quiet entirely?

[Dee Dee Warren]

Eugene: Who in the world are you talking to??? I think you need to lay off the caffeine a bit. You are being rude and surly. I am ashamed at my obvious misjudging of your intentions. Unless you are just having a bad day, you are not the person I thought you were.

[Eugene]

Dee Dee Warren,

I believe it’s obvious that I was addressing SteveT.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Eugene: What you said made no sense in the context of what Steve said and was an extreme overreaction to say the least. Are you having a bad day today??

[Eugene]

Dee Dee Warren,

I suspect I feel the same about the quality of Steve’s post as the posters you label a peanut gallery.

Guess who's earned his third trip to my ignore list for making inane comments??? The peanut gallery liveth....

[Dee Dee Warren]

dear Eugene:

Take a step back and take a deep breath. That comparison is completely unwarranted. It is just ONE individual that I label as the resident peanut gallery, and you know who it is as I have told you in a private email. Steve's comments are nothing like his, and you are just digging yourself deeper and deeper. You are creeping up to actually owing him an apology. I read your and Steve's interaction on that other thread too, and you were quite surly to him there as well. I don't why your panties are all in a bunch about Steve, but really, Eugene, it is beneath you. Get over it. I know Steve somewhat well over my tenure here and he does not deserve the treatment that you are giving him.

But now, I am sure that Steve does not need a girlie to fight his battles for him so enough on that. I am just calling you on the carpet for your attitude towards him as I was surprised at it, but now, it's between you and him. You are better than this, Eugene. If I thought you were a low-life, I wouldn't even bother telling you all this.

[SteveT]

Eugene:

The problem is that you are interpreting the events in Luke's account of the Olivet discourse as "When the apocalyptic end-time disasters begin to fall...", which is precisely what I disagree with. The Olivet discourse concerns events that are "ALL about to take place", that will occur "before this generation passes away". The death of Christ on the cross certainly meets those qualifications; the "apocalyptic end time disasters" certainly do not.

The beginning of the events in the list provided by the Lord were "Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name, saying, `I am he!' and, `The time is at hand!' Do not go after them. [9] And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified; for this must first take place, but the end will not be at once." Acts 5 gives descriptions of some of these false messiahs:

"And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you do with these men.
[36] For before these days Theu'das arose, giving himself out to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him; but he was slain and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.
[37] After him Judas the Galilean arose in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered..."

There were certainly no shortage of false messiahs around in Jesus' day. As for "wars and tumults" , we know that Jesus' trial and execution occurred in the immediate aftermath of an insurrection for which Barabbas had been jailed (Luke 23:19). It was at the start of this period that our redemption was achieved. And the period leading up to the destruction of the temple and the city (which Jesus made explicit was what he was talking about in Luke 21:6) continued on with the nations rising against nation, earthquakes, famines, etc., until the final consummation in 70AD.

"You must appreciate Scripture’s “now/not yet” phenomena ..."

Of course I do. But you seemed to ignore it yourself in your original post that claimed the redemption spoken of could only be the final eschaton. The context of the passage - specifically Jesus' repeated and emphatic insistence that ALL these things would occur within a generation - simply will not allow that interpretation. According to Deuteronomy (which you conveniently haven't addressed) your interpretation would make Jesus a false prophet. Perhaps you'd like to start with addressing Dt 18:22?

[Dee Dee Warren]

Well said Steve.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Eugene:

I still am at a total loss as to exactly what your point is. You keep bringing up passages following Matthew 24:34 which apparently you believe refer exclusively to the future. There are some preterists who would agree with you. I am pretty convinced that they don’t but I am not overly dogmatic on the issue. So… before I even go there, I am struggling to understand your position is on the Olivet Discourse (in Matthew, Mark, and Luke) UP UNTIL THE VERSE, “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” Do you believe that this refers to AD70 (including the coming that is mentioned in the preceeding verses) or not?? If not, how do you get around the clear time statements and clear first century context.

Moving forward is an exercise in futility for me until we get that point straightened out. Please answer that question.

[Hitch]

Come on DD. The point here is to make no sense.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Hitch:

Just when I am wondering where in the world are you... you show up!!

[Eugene]

Dee Dee wrote:

So… before I even go there, I am struggling to understand your position is on the Olivet Discourse (in Matthew, Mark, and Luke) UP UNTIL THE VERSE, “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” Do you believe that this refers to AD70 (including the coming that is mentioned in the preceeding verses) or not?? If not, how do you get around the clear time statements and clear first century context.

Moving forward is an exercise in futility for me until we get that point straightened out. Please answer that question.Dear Dee Dee,

I consider it a privilege to explain my view with the greatest care and with the most meticulous attention to detail. If I fail in this please let me know.

The short answer to your question is no. Still, please give me some credit for acknowledging the clear time statements and clear first century context:

I agree that the grammatical-historical hermeneutic is the most obvious way to interpret text. All ordinary communication uses this principle and I can’t see how to communicate without it. I therefore accept, at face-value, the many Bible texts that indicate Christ’s prophesied /intended return in the first century. I also accept the many texts which anticipate the Second Coming to arrive in the lifetime of the New Testament writers. I do not presuppose it happened just because it was predicted /anticipated.How do I get around this?

What I’m proposing is a whole new paradigm for prophetic interpretation. I’m saying that Jesus prophesied a complete end-time scenario for the first century (in the Olivet Discourse), which in fact hit all the major catastrophes, and that the revealing, coming, kingdom of God, redemption, and standing before the Son of Man, is to be understood in its ultimate eschatological sense. I’m also saying that Jesus inserted a disclaimer. There would be a delay in His return.When I said “Jesus prophesied a complete end-time scenario for the first century,” I meant that the following statements are all true:

1. The Olivet Discourse is complete. Jesus said, “Behold, I have told you everything in advance” (Mk 13:23). No mention is made of the mark of the beast, the seven last plagues, or Armageddon. Our awareness of future and more distant scenarios shouldn’t concern us here. Our investigation is focused on what I call the “first scenario.”

2. The Olivet Discourse describes the consummation of all things. I emphasized 3 major items. I believe you understand my interpretation of items number 2 and 3 and my claim of three very important verses being parallel. (I will say more about item number 1 in my next post). When I called the Olivet Discourse an end-time scenario and said that the three items were to be understood in their ultimate eschatological sense, I didn’t mean anything was scheduled to happen in a day still future. Unmistakable grammatical-historical exegesis should be directing us to believe that all this was to be fulfilled in the first century.

“I’m also saying that Jesus inserted a disclaimer. There would be a delay in His return.” A disclaimer is “A public disavowal, as of pretensions, claims, opinions, and the like.” --Burke. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. Obviously, a delay in Christ’s return also delays the final judgment.

I don’t mind you not seeing the disclaimer. I don’t even what to debate it. The issue as I see it is, What is the correct grammatical-historical interpretation of the Olivet Discourse? Specifically, is proper exegesis based on an understanding of what all the words mean or do we just start with all the time texts and then use a retrofit, fulfillment-defines-prophecy methodology?

Here’s a useful definition:

“The aim of the grammatico-historical method is to determine the meaning required of Scripture by the laws of grammar and the facts of history. The grammatical meaning is the simple, direct, plain, ordinary, and literal sense of the phrases, clauses, and sentences. The historical meaning is that sense which is demanded by a careful consideration of the time and circumstances in which the author wrote. It is the specific meaning which an author’s words require when the historical context and background are taken into account. Thus, the grand object of grammatical and historical interpretation is to ascertain the specific usage of words as employed by an individual writer as prevalent in a particular age.” — (Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Toward An Exegetical Theology, p. 88).

I’d like to emphasize that, in this quote, the historical context to a prophecy is an understanding of the historical context to the words when the prophecy was first given and published, not the time a proposed fulfillment takes place.

What I am saying is made clear in this statement by Dr. Oral Collins, http://www.historicism.com/Collins/interp.htm :

“It is necessary to distinguish between the message of the prophet and the fulfillment. As a matter of procedure, the meaning of the prophetic text should be determined first. Only after this should the question of fulfillment [be] considered. …[In other words,] the interpreter must resist the temptation to wrongly identify the prophecy with a particular fulfillment in order to accommodate it to a particular historical event or to a particular prophetic system.”

[Pilgrimagain]

Just let me throw in my vote for an inaugerated eschatology.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Eugene:

I have no idea at all what you are talking about. You are making this much more complex than it needs to be IMHO. If you think that I am going to respond to what you just said, you are mistaken. Why? Because I have no idea what you just said.

If we are going to talk you are going to have to shorten and simplify your posts.... if that is unreasonable or undesirable then we will have to part ways. No offense, but I got a headache just trying to understand your point. You also claim that I understood something about points one and two and something else, and I don't claim to fully understand anything you are claiming.

It seems to be that the basic point you are saying is this....

Jesus first categorically and clearly claims that everyting between Matthew 24:1 and 24:33 was to happen within the lifetimes of the then living generation... but then, immediately afterwards gives a disclaimer.

Is that what you are trying to say?? If so, take a deep breath and consider the utter inanity of Christ at first saying something definitely was going to happen during a certain time frame and in the next breath totally negating that. That makes NO sense whatsoever.

The persons who see a break in Matthew 24 beginning at verse 35 at least understand that if there is a break, it is because two different "comings" are in view. Such people believe that all of 24 up to verse 33 was fulfilled in the first century and that the rest exclusively refers to the future. While I don't agree with that view, at least it keeps the Lord from uttering inanities and is plausible.

[Eugene]

Let’s take a careful look at item number 1 as identified in the opening post—the nature of the kingdom at the end of the age.

The Parable of the Weeds (Mt 13:24-30):

24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn .' "

The Parable of the Weeds Explained (Mt 13:36-43):

36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

1. Please note that the extent of this prophecy is the world: “The field is the world.”
2. “The harvest is the end of the age.” The language of allowing wheat and tares to continue to mature and develop until harvest time suggests that the harvest is an event, not a progressive unfolding requiring thousands of years.
3. “The harvesters are angels.” If the harvest is the end of the age, the work required of the harvesters is brief. “The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.” Christ’s kingdom is worldwide. Everything that causes sin and all who do evil will be uprooted. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
4. Here it’s the wicked that are harvested. In Mt 24:31 the focus is on the righteous being harvested: “And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” There is no reason to suppose that these events don’t occur simultaneously. See Revelation 14:14-20.

Another view of the Harvest and Final Judgment (Luke 13:22-30):

22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
24He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."

1. For any of the wicked to see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and they themselves being thrown out implies resurrection and final judgment. It also implies a final separation like the sheep/goat separation illustrated in Mt 25:32. “And He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left” (Mt 25:33).
2. Also note the reference to a time when probation closes. This is repeated in Mt 25:11-12.

Matthew 25
10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
11 "Later the other virgins also came, saying, ' Lord, lord, open up for us.'
12 "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
13 "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour. "

The reason preterists misunderstand many of the references in Olivet Discourse is because they refuse to allow Scripture to interpret itself. They close their eyes to all similar phrases elsewhere in the teachings of Jesus.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Eugene:

You jump around too much for me. I repeat:

It seems to be that the basic point you are saying is this....

Jesus first categorically and clearly claims that everyting between Matthew 24:1 and 24:33 was to happen within the lifetimes of the then living generation... but then, immediately afterwards gives a disclaimer.

Is that what you are trying to say?? If so, take a deep breath and consider the utter inanity of Christ at first saying something definitely was going to happen during a certain time frame and in the next breath totally negating that. That makes NO sense whatsoever.

[Eugene]

Dear Dee Dee,

It’s obvious that your understanding of the Scriptures is extremely limited. You seem to be saying that you have never encountered conditional prophecy in the Old Testament.

If you knew as little about the New Testament as you do the Old, you’d be a prime candidate for the Nostradamus cult. There are people who presuppose that Nostradamus was a prophet, that prophets are inerrant, and then they waste a lot of time using your retrofit, history-defines-prophecy methodology to make his predictions fit.

Man’s expectations imprison the Bible. It makes Scripture a product of his own ideas, a human creation. Your view of prophecy fits because you make it so. There’s no merit in this kind of idol worship and superstition. It isn’t reverent. I impose no demands on the word of God. I reject none of its mysteries. I prefer to allow Scripture to unfold its own message so that it may speak with the authority of God and not that of man.

Only from the straightforward simple sense of Scripture comes power, life, comfort, and instruction. Only then is the word of God “living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword” (Heb 4:12).

[Dee Dee Warren]

Eugene:

It’s obvious that your understanding of the Scriptures is extremely limited. You seem to be saying that you have never encountered conditional prophecy in the Old Testament.

Eugene, well you are turning into a rude person with an inflated view of one's own knowledge before my very eyes. I expect an apology for the insults in that last post. Second, if you were actually reading my posts, you would have saved yourself the embarassment of your last sentence, since I talked specifically about the reasons for conditional prophecy in the OT in one of your many prior inflammatory threads.

If you knew as little about the New Testament as you do the Old, you’d be a prime candidate for the Nostradamus cult.

Gee thanks Eugene, considering the source, I'll take it for what its worth. I guess when you can't answer a simple question but have to post reams upon reams of meaningless meanderings you must feel like you have to insult people when they do something as pesky as insist that you actually answer a question.

There are people who presuppose that Nostradamus was a prophet, that prophets are inerrant, and then they waste a lot of time using your retrofit, history-defines-prophecy methodology to make his predictions fit.

Ewww!!! Guilty as charged. I believe that prophets are inerrant, as defined by the Bible. If you would answer the question, we could actually move on the conversation since I have dealt with ruder people than you before. Pretty bold online heh?? Why do I think that you would think twice about behaving this way towards a woman if she and her husband were right in front of you?? You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You are behaving like a coward.

[Eugene]

Correction: It seems that your understanding of the Scriptures is extremely limited. Are you saying that you have never encountered conditional prophecy in the Old Testament?

[Dee Dee Warren]

Eugene:

It seems like almost everyone here is just plain done talking with you, and I almost am as well. I don’t have time for childish sandbox games. You said,

It seems that your understanding of the Scriptures is extremely limited.

Then go find someone else to abuse.

Are you saying that you have never encountered conditional prophecy in the Old Testament?

Your local community college or adult ed center probably offers remedial reading classes. You might want to considering enrolling in one. I said,

Second, if you were actually reading my posts, you would have saved yourself the embarassment of your last sentence, since I talked specifically about the reasons for conditional prophecy in the OT in one of your many prior inflammatory threads.

If you had followed that advice you would have spared yourself further display of your arrogance. Ironically enough, you misread a sentence in which I was chastising you for misreading a sentence. If I actually NEVER encountered conditional prophecy in the OT how in the world could I have talked specifically about the reasons for conditional prophecy in the OT in one of you many prior inflammatory posts?? You are talking out of your rear end. But of course, I am not buying the diversion from answering the very simple question posed to you which you are trying doggedly to avoid answering.

Oh, and to refresh your recollection, here is a statement I made on one of your many, many prior threads,

That is the crux of the issue. I believe that God did exactly what He said He was going to do. I also do understand that there is an “inherent” escape hatch in every judmgnet prophecy, such as the one given to Nineveh, and that is if the doomed peoples repent, the judgment is averted. The self-same judgment is not “delayed,” it is avoided. A later judgment will be to a different peoples and presumably for additional or different offenses. And in the Olivet Discourse, the lack of repentance is predicted and there is no hint of any escape hatch.

If you had read that, you would not have made that stupid comment.

Now please answer the question.

[Eugene]

Originally posted by Eugene
Correction: It seems that your understanding of the Scriptures is extremely limited. Are you saying that you have never encountered conditional prophecy in the Old Testament? Why can’t some people forgive? Jesus said, “Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” Luke 17:3,4.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Eugene, you need to lay off the crack. I have no idea what you are talking about.

PS: That was a joke. I do not actually think you are smoking crack, it was a hyperbolic way to get my point across. Since you do not seem to understand Jesus' hyperbole, I was sure you would misunderstand mine as well.

Please answer the question posed.