Reincarnation [Archive] - Theology Forum

freelight

November 11th, 2007, 04:35 PM

freelight

November 12th, 2007, 09:05 PM

***

The following is an introduction of the primary tenets of Rebirth held within the Religious philosophy of Spiritism -

Reincarnation:

> Reincarnation allows evolution of the soul. Spirits reincarnate into successive material existences in order to evolve intellectually and morally. Humans have a degree of free will while living on planet Earth, although they are subjects to natural laws including the Law of Cause and Effect. When spirits return to their home in the spirit world, they have the option to come back to Earth for another life lesson. Most spirits choose this option many times.

> The goal of reincarnation (or soul evolution) is to reach relative perfection. Then reincarnation is no longer necessary and there is no need for suffering. Human beings determine their own path by the choices they make in this process. To love, to forgive, and to be compassionate are some of the lessons spirits should learn to apply while incarnated on Earth.

> The spirits of human beings do NOT reincarnate into the bodies of animals. Reincarnation is soul evolution, this implies that regression to less evolved life forms in not possible.

> Each person’s actions or non-actions (in thought, word, and deed) are subject to the Law of Cause and Effect. Each person must, during their material existences, expiate and atone for its current and past life indiscretions, and make appropriate reparations. This allows for spiritual balance and soul progression. We always receive assistance throughout our spiritual journey from spirit guides assigned to us.

> We are responsible for any wrongs we have committed, and for any good we could have done, but failed to do. In some cases spiritual progress may be very, very slow. It may take myriads of material existences to reach our goal. But, the path of redemption is never closed and ALL can reach relative perfection and communion with God. There is no such place as a “Heaven” or a “Hell” -- our behavior and the choices we make determine our set of circumstances and our conditions, in the material world and as well as in the spirit world.

> There are many inhabited worlds in the Universe. Spirits incarnate as human beings on our planet Earth, but they can also incarnate in other inhabited worlds of the universe. Also, spirits from other worlds (more or less developed than Earth) can incarnate in our planet. We are told that at any given time there are a lot more disincarnated spirits (in the spirit world) than there are incarnated in all inhabited worlds, so as world population grows there is always plenty of spirits ready to incarnate in the new physical bodies.

For further research on Spiritism -

SPIRITISM 101
AN INTRODUCTION TO THE SPIRITIST DOCTRINE,
CODIFIED BY ALAN KARDEC (http://www.spiritistdoctrine.com/)

What is Spiritism? (http://www.spiritandscience.org/aboutme.htm) (Source for list above)

***

OlDove

November 12th, 2007, 09:22 PM

i was a donkey once, i just know it.

chrysostom

November 13th, 2007, 03:24 PM

Do you believe that it is possible that more are alive today than have ever died?

Damian

November 13th, 2007, 04:10 PM

Do you believe that it is possible that more are alive today than have ever died?

The evidence suggests that there are parallel worlds and parallel lives.

OlDove

November 13th, 2007, 04:18 PM

The evidence suggests that there are parallel worlds and parallel lives.

evidence?

freelight

November 13th, 2007, 08:14 PM

Do you believe that it is possible that more are alive today than have ever died?

As shared in the post on Spiritism above,...the spirits that gave those revelations indicate that there are more spirits 'disincarnate' than 'incarnate' at any given time. As far as spirits living in bodies now, as a total number...compared with those who have died on this planet(born here, died and passed on)...I dont know. I am more right-brained...leaning towards mystical insight, philosophy, intuition....and dont often get too much into the left brain mathmatical, linear, logical computations. Such inquiries are interesting nonetheless. Whatever the case,....all souls are granted the provision of salvation, reform and reunion with God as they join their wills to His to fulfill their life-design and soul-purpose. Grace affords the soul multiple opportunities thru the process of 'rebirth'.

I shared the Reluctant Messenger site with you in a PM, (link also here in OP)...as it reminded me of some logics you shared on reincarnation being part of the divine plan for all to hear the gospel while 'in the flesh', the Millennium being a pivotal time period for this allowance. It seemed that the author of the site may share similar views or merely touched on some points that you had brought up in the past. Again,...very interesting things to speculate on.

paul

freelight

November 13th, 2007, 08:26 PM

The evidence suggests that there are parallel worlds and parallel lives.

If we look into the Mirror of INFINITY,....it would appear that souls are experiencing consciousness in multi-dimensions. In the arena of 'embodiments',...do you see the soul then also taking up as many body-forms (thru a vista of time-sectors) to enhance the full capacity of the variety of experience? One spiritualist school holds that souls go thru the totality of every possible life-experience before they can fully ascend and grow into full maturity of perfection....then reuniting with the God-Source.

paul

Damian

November 13th, 2007, 11:22 PM

evidence?

Yes, out-of-body explorations.

Damian

November 13th, 2007, 11:25 PM

If we look into the Mirror of INFINITY,....it would appear that souls are experiencing consciousness in multi-dimensions. In the arena of 'embodiments',...do you see the soul then also taking up as many body-forms (thru a vista of time-sectors) to enhance the full capacity of the variety of experience? One spiritualist school holds that souls go thru the totality of every possible life-experience before they can fully ascend and grow into full maturity of perfection....then reuniting with the God-Source.

Well, there's admittedly paradox here. Because if there is an infinite number of experiences to undergo then it would take an infinite amount of time to undergo the experiences. So, from one perspective (the Godself's perspective), time must be illusory.

paul

freelight

November 14th, 2007, 12:03 AM

Well, there's admittedly paradox here. Because if there is an infinite number of experiences to undergo then it would take an infinite amount of time to undergo the experiences. So, from one perspective (the Godself's perspective), time must be illusory.

Perhaps,.....yet LIFE is INFINITE. Regardless...upon some definitive levels of consciousness...we would scale upon qualified levels or qualities of awareness and spiritual integrity...so that we do attain higher levels of truth-experience and Love. Time has its place in the definitive/ conditional planes of Life,...while in the Eternal Sphere of divine BEING,...there is only Timeless Eternity. We might call this the Indefinity of Wholeness, the All, the One, the Immensity. Nevertheless,...since there is no beginning or end to LIFE,....any number of experiences, forms, embodiments, planes, levels, realities,....are arising within the unlimited Potential of the One MIND. God and his creations carry on in endless procession.

paul

freelight

December 23rd, 2008, 08:10 PM

~*~*~*~

Hi all,

Continuing on with our meditations on rebirth, we see that in ancient Hinduism, this concept is consonant and consequential to the conditional elements of 'karma', and only pertains as the soul is bound or identified to the physical body and the matterial world. Because karma appears as a universal law on the conditional planes of existence,...it is only in force there, whereas the soul becomes wholly free of such karmic-cycles of birth/death/rebirth, after it attains total emancipation, thru perfect knowledge(jnana yoga) and union with Brahman(the Supreme Soul,.... eternal, infinite, imperishable). Here (http://www.hinduism.co.za/reincarn.htm) is an interview with Sri Ramana Maharshi on the subject, covering its various dimensions.

Maharshi was rooted primarily in the Advaita Vedanta (http://www.realization.org/page/topics/advaita_vedanta.htm)(non-duality) school, where in truth...the soul(jiva/atman) is in essence and nature...identical with Brahman(God)...but the soul is lost in its ego-identity with the physical body and a mind engrossed in the temporal aspects of life, that it does not see its oneness and and true Identity as Brahman. - hence the soul is bound to the cycles of birth/death/rebirth...working out its karma,....expiating its sins until it can acheive liberation thru awakening to Truth and knowing its true nature as God. Only perfect knowledge of God, and perfect union with the Absolute, liberates one from the bonds of conditional existence/karma....where one then abides in transcendental bliss as the Supreme Self (Brahman/Atman).

Sri Ramana Maharshi (http://www.realization.org/page/topics/ramana.htm) taught a method called 'Self Inquiry' (http://www.hinduism.co.za/self-enq.htm)...as a Direct Path to opening one to Self-Realization, by reminding and drawing the soul back to its True Self, by asking, "Who am I?" repeatedly.....so one would continue to keep the Reality of the "I" of the I AM...ever before them, as the One and True Self.

Universally then we can see that all karma takes place only in the conditional planes of existence(with the 'apparent/relative' aspect of the soul) and not in the unconditional state of the soul(the real, eternal, immortal, pure aspect of the soul)..for the latter is above all karma, sin, mortality, birth/death. So...it stands to reason based on universal principles and laws...that rebirth will continue to take place as long as relative karmic laws prevail in the case of any soul, until it attains complete liberation...and then enjoys eternal Existence-Knowledge-Bliss (Sat-chit-ananda (http://www.yogaofsrichinmoy.com/the_higher_worlds/sat-chit-ananda)).

The Advaita(non-dual) Path allows us to go directly to the Eternal Self, which is ever the truth of who we are, the soul(Atman)...and by coming to know the true nature of the soul, awaken to and accept the Reality of Brahman, for Atman and Brahman are of one Identity, essence and Being. The Immortal Self is birthless/deathless, Immutable, Unconditioned, imperishable. So, will souls continue to re-embody? - only in the relative/phenomenal planes where karma continues to keep ones soul-awareness tied to the conditions that foster such continual rebirths.

pj

freelight

December 23rd, 2008, 08:24 PM

~*~*~

In this other thread we share similarities between the concept of 'resurrection' and 'reincarnation' and elaborate more on 'rebirth'.

What if reincarnation was an essential part of Christianity and it was totally missed? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52135)

Gurucam started the above thread, with his own peculiar logics. My thesis concerns about the teaching on a universal level, as rebirth is taught and intuited in many religious traditions.

pj

The Graphite

December 23rd, 2008, 08:28 PM

i was a donkey once, i just know it.

I was an elephant once. :chuckle:

freelight

December 28th, 2008, 01:27 PM

~*~*~

As we consider the universal law of karma, we discover the opportunities that reincarnation grants for evolving souls, as they carry out their adventure of life, with the ultimatum of learning, growth, experience, further unfolding their divine potential and purpose in the greater scheme of Life. If we look across the skein of time and eternity, it would seem logical for divine Providence to provide souls every opportunity in their sojourn of life to learn thru life-experiences, in a diversity of contexts. As most theists/spiritualist believe in the eternal progress/life of souls,...Love could not help by its own principle and generosity to give souls all the space & time needed to 'work out their own salvation'.

Below are some articles for us to consider: update note: (sorry these 2 links below are now offline temporarily)

Why is it important for Christians to consider reincarnation? (http://www.askrealjesus.com/K_JESUS_ANSWERS/D_BY_JESUS/Reincarnimportant.html)

Did Jesus teach reincarnation? (http://www.askrealjesus.com/K_JESUS_ANSWERS/D_BY_JESUS/Teachreincarn.html)

In light of the eternal progress of the soul, divine Love affords all opportunities, within the laws of the universe and free will...for souls to fulfill and enjoy the purpose of their being. God is our only Home, origin and destiny. Remember Love's eternal will.

Kevin William's excellent reserach on NDE's/The Afterlife and Reincarnation- Here (http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation.html).

:)

pj

John Mortimer

December 29th, 2008, 07:25 PM

The Divine Mother would speak to us of the adventure of all lifetimes.

Once again into embodiment -
How distressing it can seem to lose all sense of who you really are and yet the loss is only temporary and is in fact a breathing space in which you can observe with somewhat cleansed perception what humankind is making with the out-breath of God.

I was so afraid once without the conscious connection to All... what brutality is this nightmarish illusion of separation from life eternal?!

Yet the Divine Feminine holds us close to Her heart in countless ways if only we allow ourselves to truly feel once again.
There was in one of the Nazi concentration camps a rose garden kept by the Commandant... the roses growing there gave of their colour and fragrance regardless of the circumstances created by the forces of darkness. This speaks of the Divine Feminine and Her unconditional giving.
When we come into oneness with Her Being we find all fear evaporates like morning dew beneath the sun... the sun that shines simply because it IS the sun and does not pause to consider the worthiness of those who would receive its life-giving radiance.

Above the storms of karma and the labyrinths of space and time there is always the Sun of the I AM Presence shining in the clear sky of Being.

The cycle of rebirth is in reality an upward spiral on the eternal breath of the Holy Mother who cannot but love all her children with an everlasting love.

Hail Divine Feminine! - each lifetime IS an adventure if we choose to stop ignoring You in our heart of hearts.

freelight

December 29th, 2008, 07:30 PM

The cycle of rebirth is in reality an upward spiral on the eternal breath of the Holy Mother who cannot but love all her children with an everlasting love.

Blessings in the Shekinah Light :)

pj

freelight

January 27th, 2009, 09:36 PM

***

Lord Krishna speaking to Arjuna on the battlefield:

Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent there is no endurance, and of the existent there is no cessation. This seers have concluded by studying the nature of both.

Know that which pervades the entire body is indestructible. No one is able to destroy the imperishable soul.

Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore, fight, O descendant of Bharata.

He who thinks that the living entity is the slayer or that he is slain, does not understand. One who is in knowledge knows that the self slays not nor is slain.

For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

O Partha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, unborn, eternal and immutable, kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?
As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.

The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.

This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.

It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable, immutable, and unchangeable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body.

-Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 2, Verse 15-25

* The Vedantas emphatically hold to the immortality of the soul(atma) being made of the imperishable substance of the Supreme Soul (Brahman). Bodies are temporal vestments in the matterial realms until the soul earns liberation from the cycles of rebirth.

pj

freelight

July 6th, 2009, 03:20 AM

~*~*~

Continuing our research on 'rebirth'...

Here is a good intro. on 'Reincarnation in Hinduism (http://www.spiritual-wholeness.org/faqs/reincgen/hindrein.htm)'.

The Bhagavad Gita on the subject, by
Swami Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Srila Prabhupada, with 1929 interview by Professor Suthers of Ohio University Here (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Articles/gita-reincarnation.html)

Mega-Portal - Hinduism on Karma and Reincarnation (http://www.katinkahesselink.net/Reincarnation-Hinduism.htm)

~*~*~

In the older classical Hindu view,...the soul or 'atma' is always eternal, immortal, imperishable, being 'pure spirit', of the same substance of 'Brahman', the Supreme OverSoul,...'atman' is a part and parcel of 'God'. In any case...the soul itself does not undergo birth/death/re-birth, since it is birthless/deathless/eternal. It only assumes new 'psycho-physical' embodiments in its adventure of physical experience, as it is bound or conditioned by 'karma'... to balance, expiate, atone for past karmic debts and strive to be liberated from 'samsara'(the rounds of birth/rebirth, conditional existence). Embodiment also provides the vesture of experience as an educational journey. The various paths of 'yoga' enable 'moksha', as the individual soul awakens and assumes its true constitutional identity as the 'atman'(one with Brahman), its immortal nature, free of all karmic bondage.

There are various modern innovations of this in the West that assume the evolving personality survives incarnations, instead of being wholly dis-integrated upon the physical death of the body. The primary difference of reincarnation in Buddhism is that there is no permament or enduring soul(atman)...but only the ongoing energies conditioned by karma, as each new embodiment a whole new personality emerges merely carrying on where the last aggregrate of attributes ended and now continue in a new body/mind complex. There are subtle differences in the 'process' of 'rebirth' involved within the major traditions.

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation)

Reincarnation in world religions (http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation.html)

pj

quip

July 6th, 2009, 03:52 AM

~*~*~

The primary difference of reincarnation in Buddhism is that there is no permanent or enduring soul(atman)...but only the ongoing energies conditioned by karma, as each new embodiment a whole new personality emerges merely carrying on where the last aggregrate of attributes ended and now continue in a new body/mind complex. There are subtle differences of the 'process' of 'rebirth' involved in all the major traditions.

Hello freelight,

The Buddhist belief in an nonexistent, enduring soul is called anatman (no-self/no-soul). Buddhist understanding of interdependence and impermanence of all phenomena logically disallows for the existence of something eternal, immortal and imperishable such as the soul is thus depicted. Hence the distinction between reincarnation (a transmigration of the soul) and reborn.

just my .02 :D

freelight

July 6th, 2009, 04:45 AM

Hello freelight,

The Buddhist belief in an nonexistent, enduring soul is called anatman (no-self/no-soul). Buddhist understanding of interdependence and impermanence of all phenomena logically disallows for the existence of something eternal, immortal and imperishable such as the soul is thus depicted. Hence the distinction between reincarnation (a transmigration of the soul) and reborn.

just my .02 :D

Hello quip,

Yes,...I find some great insights within both Hindu & Buddhist viewpoints,...and will likely do some synthesizing ;) - there are so many subtle distinctions therein, as well as other schools. - hence research/study is really essential when investigating this field.

Here's a post from the "Ask a buddhist" thread that bodhigirlsmiles started sometime back,...shes now a 'christian'. Here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1937317&postcount=174)
Have you read this thread? Perhaps another current 'buddhist' can take the thread over, if they have anything more to add.

Also - new embodiments equate new experiential opportunities (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2067239&postcount=256)

My current take is that every school may add a piece of the puzzle, giving parts to an integral picture of the continuity of life as it interfaces in the mind/body/spirit complex, within karma, and outside it.

Namaste,

pj

Doctor

July 6th, 2009, 03:06 PM

***

Greetings all,

This thread is dedicated to exploring and researching the positive principle of 'reincarnation' or 'rebirth' which terms will be used interchangably. 'Rebirth' in this context is also known in other forms and variant functions as 'plurality of existences', 'metempsychosis' and 'transmigration of the soul'. These phases if different from more traditional understandings of 'rebirth' may be explored later. Also we must see the similarity of 'rebirth' with 'resurrection'.

My view is that the soul continues to progress in its evolutionary journey Godward...in multiple embodiments....whether these be matter-ial or spiritual,....divine Providence 'suits' the soul along its journey in the divine Plan. In the momentums or cycles of 'rebirth',....souls experience such rebirth individually...and/or with a group of souls in a collective resurrection. So there may be en-masse cycles of rebirth of souls during special dispensations.

I would ask this space to be honored and respected by those interested in the subject and learning more as there is much information and study in this field. It is quite logical that the path of Life for any or all souls would include the greatest diversity of experience and learning and that such progress of knowledge/experience could be afforded thru multiple embodiments. This ancient teaching is recognized in many of the worlds religions and seems to be intuitive to the concept of the soul's immortality.

To begin our adventures on the subject,....I offer this portal site for those somewhat new to the subject - Reincarnation Research Center (http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-research-center.htm). The author of this site has an interesting view of reincarnation and resurrection relative to the scenario's detailed in the Book of Revelation, the Millennium and beyond.

My primary view as a spiritualist is the eternal progression of the soul - and this may include more than one embodiment....thru the processes of 'rebirth'(reincarnation/resurrection). With the ancient Pharisees I believe in angels and resurrection, and with the Essenes...I accept rebirth and the immortality of the soul.

paul

"Freespirit" has every right to his opinion however wrong and confused he maybe.

The goal of those who are involved in Eastern Mysticism and or Hindu thought of reincarnation, is to prove that people do indeed have a power, that they are gods who create their own universe with their minds.

Yes I know, it is funny and yes they are messed up but they just like you and me have the ability to accept Christ and come to Him and be "born again" from sin and deception. I have 4 grandchildren and the oldest is 8. Even at her young age, she knows how silly these people sound.

Listen, THINK, Freespirit......IF faith is a belief which creates by its own power, then the patients in mental hospitals ought to be the giants of your faith. They surely believe their delusions as strongly as the human mind can believe, yet their belief fails to produce the "alternate reality" of their madness.

Far from mentally creating reality, man has been struggling to discover the secrets of a universe which is so awesome in size and yet so intricate in minutest detail that it reflects the genius of a Creator whose mind and creative power is far beyound any human capabilities.

Freespirit, you write and propagate a belief that is beyound cruel .
How cruel to tell the millions of beggars in Calcutta who are born and live out their miserable lives and die in its streets that their running sores, hungar, and poverty do not exist. but have been created by their own "negitive" thinking!! DAM, give me a break!!!
There is no suffering, disease, or death, one only imagines it is there. All one needs to do to change ones experience of life is to change the way one perceives it???????????? That folks has got to be the cruelest hoax of all time.

Most of those who teach that we can each create our own reality because there is a spark of divinity in us, theorize a Universal Mind as the source of infinite power and knowledge. Strange that this infininate Mind actually has no mind of its own but only mirrors what WE think. Then of course the most unique thing of all is that it does not reprove us for our sin.

I am so glad that Freespirit posted this as it gives me the oportunity to once again give out the gospel of the Lord Jesus and it will go around the world on this web site. THANKS!!!

The people who have this mistaken belief will uselly use the Bible and quote Psalms 82:6 where God said, "A have said Ye are gods". They will say that even Jesus quoted that verse. But they stop there. WHY?
Because they know what comes next. Because He (Jesus) was testing the Pharisees' understanding of Scripture, Jesus did not quote the next verse......"BUT YE SHALL DIE LIKE MEN".
That tells us very clearly that being a god and death go together.
In telling them that God had siad they were already gods, Jesus was not calling men to become gods. We will have to go back to Genesis 3:22 to find when and where God called men gods. There in that verse God said:
"Behold, the man is become as one of us".
It was Satan not God who promised godhood to Eve and not that she would be GOD but "AS" the gods. There is the catch!!!!!!!!!
There is only one true God. All of the gods are false. They are all pretenders after godhood, the followers of Satan.

There is only one God and One Savior, the Christ man, Jesus. He was born of the virgin, lived a life of no sin, died to pay for your sin and rose from the dead to justify your faith in Him. We, YOU and me are sinners and we are hell bound. But the love of God is so great that He does not want any to perish. I encourage you to reject this silly thought of being born over and over thoudands of times and come to Christ so that when the reality of death overtakes you......
you will be saved from the judgment.

The choice is yours.

freelight

July 6th, 2009, 09:11 PM

"Freespirit" has every right to his opinion however wrong and confused he maybe.

The goal of those who are involved in Eastern Mysticism and or Hindu thought of reincarnation, is to prove that people do indeed have a power, that they are gods who create their own universe with their minds.

Yes,...we all have a right to do our own research, exercise our reasoning and soulic faculties to ascertain what is logical, ethical, and resonates with universal laws.

I suggest you do more research on the subject at hand. I've addressed you elsewhere, like Here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2083224&postcount=276).

Your statement above in blue is 'wanting',...and an imposed catagorizing of 'new age',....being incorrect(in context), for the subject is 'rebirth'(reincarnation) which does not have to do with a presumed 'inner god-power' per se, but rests upon the principle of 'karma' (a universal law). Also,...understanding the various schools within Hinduism would enlighten, as well as different views on 'rebirth' from other traditions, thats what the sharings and 'links' are for, personal research/study (education).

Lets stay on topic. This is primarily a research-venture on the logics and philosophy behind 'rebirth'...not an 'inner Christ or god-power',...I have other threads that deal more with the 'I Am Presence' or 'Christ within'. :) - for that 'light' illumines all men who come into the world. God is Light, that Light is Universal. In the experience of space/time relationships....the soul is working out its salvation,...reaping what it sows, given opportunity to experience all dimensions, being responsible for its sins, as well as its salvation in the Providence afforded. Love itself is the Atonement, when the soul is wholly one with God in perfect harmony, unity, essence and being. "for where the Spirit of the Lord IS.....there...is liberty" (moksha).

pj

Doctor

July 7th, 2009, 03:08 PM

The evidence suggests that there are parallel worlds and parallel lives.

Evidence? What evidence? You mean a TV show on the Discovery channel. Give me a break!!!!!!

Quincy

July 7th, 2009, 03:27 PM

Evidence? What evidence? You mean a TV show on the Discovery channel. Give me a break!!!!!!

That is brilliant! Not only do you have nothing to prove your absurd belief in a resurrecting god man but a book of folklore from desert nomads, but you have the audacity to criticize something else. Utter brilliance! Reincarnation is not a cruel teaching, just use your head. Your mind and body doesn't reincarnate, you aren't going to be aware it's "another" life without proper guidance to gain that awareness. Existence is an upward spiral or evolution and a rebirth would be merely of your energy, lifeforce along a path. There is no teaching in eastern faiths that people are god, but that all existence is part of the divine. Before yelling at people, I suggest you become more educated on a matter from a source not trying to keep the business of salvation afloat...... You just make yourself look silly and hot headed.

Doctor

July 7th, 2009, 03:28 PM

Yes,...we all have a right to do our own research, exercise our reasoning and soulic faculties to ascertain what is logical, ethical, and resonates with universal laws.

I suggest you do more research on the subject at hand. I've addressed you elsewhere, like Here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2083224&postcount=276).

Your statement above in blue is 'wanting',...and an imposed catagorizing of 'new age',....being incorrect(in context), for the subject is 'rebirth'(reincarnation) which does not have to do with a presumed 'inner god-power' per se, but rests upon the principle of 'karma' (a universal law). Also,...understanding the various schools within Hinduism would enlighten, as well as different views on 'rebirth' from other traditions, thats what the sharings and 'links' are for, personal research/study (education).

Lets stay on topic. This is primarily a research-venture on the logics and philosophy behind 'rebirth'...not an 'inner Christ or god-power',...I have other threads that deal more with the 'I Am Presence' or 'Christ within'. :) - for that 'light' illumines all men who come into the world. God is Light, that Light is Universal. In the experience of space/time relationships....the soul is working out its salvation,...reaping what it sows, given opportunity to experience all dimensions, being responsible for its sins, as well as its salvation in the Providence afforded. Love itself is the Atonement, when the soul is wholly one with God in perfect harmony, unity, essence and being. "for where the Spirit of the Lord IS.....there...is liberty" (moksha).

pj

Yes we have crossed paths before and probably will again.

Stay on topic? Rebirth? You mean "reincarnation".

TOPIC.....Stop looking in the Bible and quoting Scriptures becasuse there is nothing in the Scriptures to support reincarnation. NOTHING.

Now "born again" is something else. A sinner, like You and me comes from being lost and away from God and come to God through Jesus the Christ. We can not save our selves, nor can we be godlike in order to miss the judgment.

You mentioned "Philsophy. That is the search for truth. There is no truth except the Word of God.

Karma is a "universal law". To whom, you??? Certainly not to me.

Actually what you are expounding in my opinion is delusion.

freelight

July 7th, 2009, 04:14 PM

Yes we have crossed paths before and probably will again.

Stay on topic? Rebirth? You mean "reincarnation".

TOPIC.....Stop looking in the Bible and quoting Scriptures becasuse there is nothing in the Scriptures to support reincarnation. NOTHING.

Now "born again" is something else. A sinner, like You and me comes from being lost and away from God and come to God through Jesus the Christ. We can not save our selves, nor can we be godlike in order to miss the judgment.

You mentioned "Philsophy. That is the search for truth. There is no truth except the Word of God.

Karma is a "universal law". To whom, you??? Certainly not to me.

Actually what you are expounding in my opinion is delusion.

The law of compensation ('what a man sows, that also shall he reap) is a universal law...precisely recognized by Paul the apostle. It is also something confirmed by human experience. I've already mentioned that I use the term 'rebirth' to include 'reincarnation'. You have presumed and concluded your belief-system and closed your mind to anything else but your 'view-point' and conception of 'the word of god' and your prescribed soteriology.

In as much as each soul has true responsibility, it is responsible for its own sins and salvation....such affordments granted by divine Providence, of course. Another individual cannot save or do the work for you, for you still have your responsibility, which is where the justice of 'rebirth' comes into play, a providence of Love...for that Love will never leave a soul or consign it to an 'eternal hell' as imagined by some traditionalists (the anti-thesis of Love).

* also,...I do not at all dismiss the great dispensations of grace brought to the planet and mankind by Jesus and other avatars or God-realized beings,..for their ministry and 'light' does much good. Their contributions absolve karma, alleviate suffering and uplift the consciousness of mankind.

With God's Help, His Spirit, the capacities innate within the soul (all is given by divine Providence)...souls work out their salvation, and the law of karma in the realm of conditional existence continues to play a part. Souls attain salvation by absolving/transcending 'sin', by Spiritual Union with the Imperishable Spirit, which is their immortality, being the 'divine nature'. - this thru various yogas, or direct Self-Realization,...that their own true identity (the atman) is 'Brahman', the Supreme Soul...or immortal God-Self. - a precusory study of Advaita Vedanta is essential to understand this 'position', as well as more modern schools pointers as well, which is the essence of Non-Duality (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58091). Also see the Mighty I AM (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35464) thread.

The doctrine of rebirth opens many avenues of discussion actually, on the whole process/constitution of the soul itself. There are more dimensions here, that your 'narrow-mindedness' and 'pointificating' do no justice to. ;)

pj

freelight

July 18th, 2009, 06:21 PM

~*~*~

Hi all,

As I've shared previously,...my views on 'rebirth' are a-dogmatic and 'open' for the most part as I maintain an essentially 'spiritualist position' in accepting the soul's eternal progression. (period) - any details on the modus operandi, embodiment-process, modes and forms will differ from school to school :) - In Hinduism it is a primary part of the 'theology', accepted at least on a philosophical level, but one can assume subtle perspectives on the dynamics involved, from different angles.

* A most wonderful commentary on 'rebirth' is a conversation that Glenda Green (noted author of 'Love without End') had with Jesus on this subject. I love it and agree whole heartedly on Jesus viewpoint. Here are some excerpts:

Eventually, I had the courage to use the word “reincarnation”. “What do you have to say about the subject of past and future lives?”

His reply was to the point. “Your immortality is a simple thing, and so your understanding will be more accurate if you keep it simple as well. By the will of God, life creates a place for you infinitely again and again, according to your love and in relation to your loved ones.”

He cautioned, “The philosophy of reincarnation is not that simple. It does affirm your continuity, and that is good. However, there’s a twist in it which defers your immortality back to structure and linearity, which is not true. Your immortality is not imprisoned within a wheel of life, or pathway of cause and affect. Neither are you the product of linear evolvement. You were created in perfection, and perfect love, and you do continue to remanifest infinitely, but it is according to the will of the Father, and according to your own purposes, your own love, and your own place of service and learning.” He added, with a touch of humor, “You actually have only one life! It’s just a very long one, with many chapters.” (Glenda Green, Love Without End, 1999, p. 76)

For more comments from Jesus go Here (http://lovedidend.wordpress.com/reincarnation/) (note: this blog critiques the 'ministry' of Glenda Green, as to what is becoming of her original calling, as the critic notices a deviation from a 'heart-based' focus to a more 'egoic-mind-centered' direction with starting a church and selling books, hosting seminars that 'seems' to be driving away from the essential message in the book, "Love without End". - in any case,...the original mission of GG, her paintings of Jesus and the teachings of the first book, still hold their original integrity according to many who have been so touched.)

Glenda Green (http://www.lovewithoutend.org/Glenda_Green.htm) (bio, shared only for info. purposes)

The subject of 'rebirth' opens so many fields to us, as we weigh such in the light of all religious teaching-perspectives, especially the concept of 'resurrection' as we covered more in depth in this thread here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1899587&postcount=44). **Beyond technichalities, the concept retains its 'denotive inference' of the soul progressing thru 'multiple life experiences'.** In sharings then, the dynamic of 'rebirth' will reference itself... being 'versatile' within the context-perspective and possibilities of what such context allows. The prospect and joy of eternal life/immortality holds ...so we look forward.....

:surf:

pj

freelight

September 14th, 2009, 05:37 PM

~*~*~

Continuing our research into the prospect of reincarnation, the philosophical and potential logics behind the souls experiential journey thru multiple embodiments,....we come to consider what the early followers of Jesus believed concerning this, from the scriptures (canonical & non-canonical) and other historical records/accounts of the beliefs/culture of that time.

The earliest Jewish followers of Jesus known as the Ebionites/Nazarenes...and also in some branches of the Essene/Gnostic schools are believed to have held to 'reincarnation' as a natural process of the soul's progression on the way towards its maturing into spiritual perfection, over the course of many life-times. It is also an accepted teaching among the Jewish kabbalists and recognized within their holy texts. It is proposed by some followers of Jesus that 'Reincarnation' is the missing key to Christianity, or at least original Christian teaching...before Pagan Rome and other church/state 'powers' rejected the teaching, and 'crafted' their own dogma which smothered the 'spiritual doctrine' of 'rebirth'. Therefore the teachings that Jesus taught to his disciples 'in secret' were the deeper esoteric doctrines, the eternal laws that govern the progress of the soul and its emancipation....its ultimate return to the Edenic Kingdom,...the Realm of God, from whence all souls have come...and are destined to return.

Highly recomended are these articles by Allan Cronshaw, in context of the soul's plan of being perfected...to become 'perfect' like our Father in Heaven is perfect.

Christian Reincarnation and the Way of the Nazirene disciple (http://reincarnation.nazirene.org/)

Reincarnation in Christianity (http://ebionite.com/reincarnation.htm#xfiles)

Can you be a Christian and believe in Reincarnation? (http://nazirene.org/mystic/reincarnation.htm)

- while these articles may be lengthy, they are worth the read to understand the logics, rationale, within the context of the spiritual perfecting and eternal purpose of the soul, to mature to full spiritual adulthood. There are also other websites within this 'ring' supporting the entire 'theology' of the spiritual Way of Christ within the Ebionite/Nazarene/Essene/Gnostic teachings reflecting the reality of the 'inner kingdom' and 'resurrection' of the soul, being a spiritual transformation within that can be 'had' now, while in physical embodiment.

Of particular interest is the teaching of predestination,...which is resolved in the light of the universal laws of 'action/re-action', 'karma',...for every soul is 'predestining' itself to a higher or a lower place by their own thoughts, words and deeds. We are ever reaping what we sow, from moment to moment, these effects transpiring sooner or later...but being determined in the 'now' of our thoughts/actions. Therefore as we understand the laws at work,....'free will' operates within the paramaters of law....it being 'those laws' that guide/determine the destinies(conditions) of souls via the 'freedom of choice' granted...so that the law of 'self-responsibility' is kept intact, as well as the higher purpose of the laws in guiding the soul to fulfill its destiny thru 'choice' to rejoin the Father, in the spiritual Kingdom. The laws are true, exact, just, and merciful towards their ultimate end, which is always contextualized and innately geared towards Life fulfilling itself, to the gory of God, thru the supreme rule of Love.

In this I hold to my universalist leanings, even though it may seem some souls can expend of forfeit their opportunites like a miscarried fetus,...the germinal seed of the soul and Spirit of God continue to work together,..for the glory of the divine Will, the soul's ultimate JOY.

pj

JWStipple

September 14th, 2009, 06:22 PM

For some, Christianity is the next step in his/her personal spiritual journey. For others, a previous step. For still others, a step that can be bypassed altogether.

JWStipple

September 14th, 2009, 06:31 PM

There is no truth except the Word of God.

At least one thing that's been pretty consistent over the years...that those who proclaim most loudly to have the most Truth are the ones who have the least...has convinced me that those who proclaim most loudly to have the Truth are the least worth listening to about it.

Since, ultimately, since each of us is using his own mind to determine what's true and what isn't, there is no Truth but what you think it is.

freelight

September 14th, 2009, 06:33 PM

For some, Christianity is the next step in his/her personal spiritual journey. For others, a previous step. For still others, a step that can be bypassed altogether.

Hi stipple,

Indeed. I'm approaching 'rebirth' from every angle in this thread,....all its dimensions, per every viewpoint and context :) - actually reincarnation doesnt even need to be referrenced within a 'christian purview',..but it just so happens to be the case that it was a common belief at the time, and there is some support for Jesus being 'friendly' towards the concept, or that it was an already accepted 'lesser mystery' of the soul's experiential journey, its 'eternal progression'. (hence sharing the sites from a Gnostic/Ebionite/Essene/Nazarne perspective...at least the authors view).

So, this thread is an exploration into the dynamics of 'rebirth' itself,....researching its logics, potentials and philosophical-rationale within a traditional and esoteric religious context. Those truly interested in the possibility and reality of such are welcome to join the discussion.

Namaste,

pj

JWStipple

September 14th, 2009, 06:48 PM

I've been in "parking" mode for a number of lifetimes...ever since I re-discovered that it was a game. So each life I'm both immersed in it and detached from it...experiencing it and watching myself experiencing it...both a passionate participant and passionate spectator...and then watching the passionate spectator as dispassionately as possible.

Between lives, I'm having beers with soul buds at the Tillamook Creek Tavern...where I play in the band every time I'm around...until we get all caught up on each others' past lives...and we want to go back and get another body.

That has some implications about..."its logics, potentials and philosophical-rationale within a traditional and esoteric religious context"...doesn't it?

freelight

September 15th, 2009, 02:20 AM

I've been in "parking" mode for a number of lifetimes...ever since I re-discovered that it was a game. So each life I'm both immersed in it and detached from it...experiencing it and watching myself experiencing it...both a passionate participant and passionate spectator...and then watching the passionate spectator as dispassionately as possible.

This is a general stance of eastern wisdom, living a life of conscious awareness/responsibility, yet detached....maintaining 'equanimity', as the silent observer (yogic discipline/meditation). In the realm of conditional existence however,...all actions are effecting re-actions, - relationships of mind, energy and matter are coelescing, affecting other mind-energy streams within the brooding sea of consciousness.

The Reincarnation FAQ (http://www.geocities.com/richard_holmes/reincarnation/faq.htm)

Alternative View of Reincarnation (http://www.dicksutphen.com/html/alternate_view_of_reincarnation.html)
The Parallel Lives Concept
By Dick Sutphen

pj

freelight

September 16th, 2009, 09:20 PM

~*~*~

The primary view behind a Buddhist understanding of 'rebirth' is the 'continuum of mind', being a ceaseless stream of consciousness,...all present moments of mind, being preceded by other moments of mind which are the eventuated effects of previous conditions of mind. - karmic results are experienced in the 'present' from all past conditioning, while the future is determined by what transpires in the realm of 'now', 'mind always being 'conditional'.

Other supports include the wide variety of talents/skills had by children that cannot be explained by any other conclusion but the 'transfer of mind' from previous accomplishments(past lives), the levels of dream state, those with memories of past-lives (details proved thru research), and scriptural authority.

About Reincarnation (http://www.aboutreincarnation.org/index.php/) - chapter links on right.

(presented by Kadampa buddhists)

14886

pj

freelight

September 23rd, 2009, 01:11 AM

~*~*~

Most interestingl are the 'assumed' incarnations of Jesus. Edgar Cayce gave readings which reveal Jesus having at least 7 previous incarnations -

The Past Lives of Jesus
According to Edgar Cayce
Here (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen049.html)

~*~*~

The Urantia Papers do not teach reincarnation for souls (as traditionally understood), however,...the Creator-Sons from the Order of Michael, of which order is our Lord Jesus...do 'bestow'(incarnate) themselves 7 times, within a different order of being to experience the full parameters as that being in experience and mastery, from the more perfect lower order divine Sons to the lower evolutionary mortals of flesh & blood.

It was upon our Earth (Urantia) that Jesus finished his 7th 'bestowal' qualifying him as the System-Sovereign, and Planetary Prince of Urantia,...having undergone the full experience-values and wisdom of living out the divine Will of the Father in every possible way within the vesture of creature-experience. This grand experience and accomplishment forever earned him the full apex of Sovereignty having finshed the 7 bestowals, to rule his universe in perfect wisdom, mercy, and justice, intimately knowing his creation having lived as one of them.

The Bestowals of Christ Michael (http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p119.htm) (Jesus)

~*~*~

pj

Thistlin

September 23rd, 2009, 02:00 AM

The primary view behind a Buddhist understanding of 'rebirth' is the 'continuum of mind', being a ceaseless stream of consciousness,...all present moments of mind, being preceded by other moments of mind which are the eventuated effects of previous conditions of mind. - karmic results are experienced in the 'present' from all past conditioning, while the future is determined by what transpires in the realm of 'now', 'mind always being 'conditional'.

I am curious what your point is in posting this, and I must say that anyone not familiar with Buddhist jargon is bound to be nothing but confused if not put off by all the words.

The message seems to confuse two teachings, the "no self" teaching and the ideas about rebirth that derive from basic Indian subcontinent cultural notions. At any rate, I would appreciate further elaboraton.

Thistlin

September 23rd, 2009, 02:17 AM

freelight

September 23rd, 2009, 02:38 AM

I am curious what your point is in posting this, and I must say that anyone not familiar with Buddhist jargon is bound to be nothing but confused if not put off by all the words.

The message seems to confuse two teachings, the "no self" teaching and the ideas about rebirth that derive from basic Indian subcontinent cultural notions. At any rate, I would appreciate further elaboraton.

Variations between Hindu/Buddhist understanding of rebirth exist. My source for the inspiration behind my short commentary was provided for in the link. If you'd like to discuss the info. from that 'buddhist' resource, we may :) - no con-fusion actually,..although Buddhist explanations can confuse the issue with "no self" concepts, but the basic idea of 'mind' continuing holds, for all life in this conditional realm of existence is ever moving, transforming, changing, assuming new forms. I'm still exploring this field, every school view, researching all possible dimensions.

pj

Thistlin

September 23rd, 2009, 02:58 AM

Variations between Hindu/Buddhist understanding of rebirth exist. My source for the inspiration behind my short commentary was provided for in the link. If you'd like to discuss the info. from that 'buddhist' resource, we may :) - no con-fusion actually,..although Buddhist explanations can confuse the issue with "no self" concepts, but the basic idea of 'mind' continuing holds, for all life in this conditional realm of existence is ever moving, transforming, changing, assuming new forms. I'm still exploring this field, every school view, researching all possible dimensions.
pjI have no real desire to get involved in discussions of what various texts, Buddhist or otherwise, say, as I find it too reminiscent of Christian and Islamic proof-texting.

I will say that one of the things that holds me in the Buddhist tradition is the no-self teaching. Its fundamental truth is so obvious to me, and reconfirmed whenever I sit, so strongly, that, well, there it is.

Rebirth, let alone some other form of reincarnation, is more problematic. I noticed that you cited some evidence (in the form of pre-life memories that are reported from time to time). This sort of evidence is, of course, never fully persuasive, it being so anecdotal and subject to motivated manipulation. I tend to conclude that rebirth is probably what happens, but I can't be sure and, besides, not relevant to how I live my present life (I should do what is right regardless of whether or not I gain from it in future lives).

John Mortimer

September 23rd, 2009, 06:24 AM

Hi Paul, JWS, Thistlin and all...

I would like to contribute to this thread from the perspective of one who for decades held on tenaciously to the western orthodox Christian view that we have one lifetime in embodiment only.

I now have not the slightest doubt that I have had many previous embodiments and that 99%+ of the present population have also.

It is important for me to state what did not lead me to change my thinking in this regard.
It was not memories or awareness of previous lifetimes.
It was not disenchantment with Christianity.
Neither was it my enchantment with Zen Buddhism.

What it basically boils down to is an absolute commitment to finding truth. The teachings I received about re-embodiment / reincarnation carried the vibration of truth and they made sense from top to bottom... though they were set in a very big context.
This is important... no facet of truth sits in a vacuum; any facet of truth is always one part of a complete whole.

Again, I think it important to state what I do not believe re-incarnation to be:
It is not the case that some kind of mechanical cycle occurs whereby we, as conscious beings, are swept along from one lifetime to another... essentially victims of circumstances beyond our control.

Reincarnation happens for reasons. If I were to try to capture those reasons in one phrase it would be, "spiritual evolution".
There is no absolute necessity for re-embodiment; we, as conscious lifestreams, choose re-embodiment at various times and for various reasons.

This brings me to Thistlin's point about the Buddhist teachings of no-self. In reality there is no separate self, no ego. However there is a Real Self, one with all life, for that Real Self is an individualized focus of the Consciousness of God. Mother Mary refers to this individualized God-lifestream as the Conscious You in oneness with the I AM Presence, (The I AM Presence being the evolving lifestream in higher dimensions with all of its attainment from previous timelines in the world of form).
The soul is a dynamic vehicle of energy and information that serves to accommodate our consciousness in the vibrations of the 3rd & 4th dimensional world.

At this point I'm aware of how interconnected everything is and that I would have to introduce other concepts to continue presenting the picture I would like to present.

This is frustrating in a way, because I so much want to avoid coming across as some mystic with loads of strange esoteric terms.

The teachings of the Ascended Master schools do approximate to the big picture I would present, if anyone wants to research that. I am somewhat reluctant to point to any institutionalized set of teachings however. True teachings live. Truth is never set in stone as cold, dead idols of the mind.

Only re-embodiment over many lifetimes can explain how incredibly complex we are as individuals.

chrysostom

September 23rd, 2009, 07:19 AM

what convinced me is

how could the gospel reach all nations without it?

freelight

September 23rd, 2009, 11:01 AM

Reincarnation happens for reasons. If I were to try to capture those reasons in one phrase it would be, "spiritual evolution".
There is no absolute necessity for re-embodiment; we, as conscious lifestreams, choose re-embodiment at various times and for various reasons.

Indeed,...the logos of 'soul' or 'spirit' is always being 'made flesh' matterializing in the experiential realm of space/time creation. The soul thru 'eternal progression' is perfecting itself thru many embodiments, as long as the value of experience and potential for 'soul-development' endures (physical embodiments hold their use as long as required while the spirit-soul continues its journey indefinitely in more ethereal realms). As we've covered so far,...there are various aspects and perspectives concerning the mechanics of such which are interesting,...however, the philosophical and spiritual logics hold theoritically.

There is also the group-soul concept where each soul in that particular collective shares the experiential values of the other. I remember a few sources touching on this, besides the 'twin-flame' concept, that we have a true 'twin',....a male/female counterpart in our original creation.

pj

Thistlin

September 23rd, 2009, 11:16 AM

It is not the case that some kind of mechanical cycle occurs whereby we, as conscious beings, are swept along from one lifetime to another... essentially victims of circumstances beyond our control.I'm not sure what you mean by "mechanical cycle," but, if it really exists (as I've already said, I'm agnostic about reincarnation), and we are basically not aware of it, then it cannot help but be something that happens outside our control. Buddhists sometimes think, or imply, that those with a great deal of merit have some control over what happens, but more often it is said, even in these cases, that it is the merit that controls, not the individual (that is, if you have a great deal of merit, you naturally end up in a "better" rebirth.)

Reincarnation happens for reasons. If I were to try to capture those reasons in one phrase it would be, "spiritual evolution".
There is no absolute necessity for re-embodiment; we, as conscious lifestreams, choose re-embodiment at various times and for various reasons. A person who has just died is in a world of terror and grief and suffering. They have (at least for Westerners) no idea of what is happening, except they know they are dead. They desire physical sensation, (the image of the "hungry ghost") but, being acorporeal, of course they have no physical experience. They desire the life they had, their loved ones, their possessions, their status, their comforts. Therefore they are naturally led to the only escape that seems to present itself, that of being born again.

This brings me to Thistlin's point about the Buddhist teachings of no-self. In reality there is no separate self, no ego. However there is a Real Self, one with all life, for that Real Self is an individualized focus of the Consciousness of God. Mother Mary refers to this individualized God-lifestream as the Conscious You in oneness with the I AM Presence, (The I AM Presence being the evolving lifestream in higher dimensions with all of its attainment from previous timelines in the world of form).What we mistake as self or soul is in reality, as you say, a lifestream that is ever-changing and can be thought of as a process, a wave of mind or a flame of consciousness, rather than a thing. To anyone uninitiated in this kind of thinking, this probably sounds like mumbo-jumbo. I would say that we might compare it to an electron--a wave of probability that, depending on how we look at it, can become the equivalent of a concrete thing, or can disperse into electrical energy.

John Mortimer

September 23rd, 2009, 11:36 AM

(physical embodiments hold their use as long as required while the spirit-soul continues its journey indefinitely in more ethereal realms).

pj

Hi Paul,

Yes - this very clearly speaks of the "height, depth and width" of the bigger picture.

What I would add is the fact that from the highest perspective there is nothing other than the One.

True progression is always Bodhisattva in nature. We embody for all sorts of reasons... some can look like very personal reasons but from a higher perspective are intended to play a part in raising the universal consciousness, the state of all Being & being All... some can seem purely altruistic but are at one and the same time intended to balance personal karma.

BabyChristian

September 23rd, 2009, 11:38 AM

Do you believe that it is possible that more are alive today than have ever died?

I do.

One issue that seems to differentiate Buddhism from Hinduism is the caste system.

How do you feel about that Freelight?

John Mortimer

September 23rd, 2009, 11:53 AM

What we mistake as self or soul is in reality, as you say, a lifestream that is ever-changing and can be thought of as a process, a wave of mind or a flame of consciousness, rather than a thing. To anyone uninitiated in this kind of thinking, this probably sounds like mumbo-jumbo. I would say that we might compare it to an electron--a wave of probability that, depending on how we look at it, can become the equivalent of a concrete thing, or can disperse into electrical energy.

Indeed... quantum science actually presents a picture of reincarnation itself.

I don't know how aware you are of the quantum sciences, so please forgive me if I'm presenting stuff you already know.

An electron only manifests in a given physical state for a length of time known as the "Planck Time", which is 10^-43 secs. It then collapses into the void, (the quantum field), carrying with it the information from the past 10^-43 secs. The electron then appears again, (is, if you will, reincarnated), from the void / quantum field in a state determined by the information it carried into the void.

Now this is not just the case for subatomic particles but also for everything in the universe. We ourselves become pure information, in-forming the void / quantum field every 10^-43 secs. The Planck Time is so short that, whilst reality in 3rd & 4th dimensions is blinking in and out of the void and is actually analogous to a cinema film - it appears to our minds as continuous. Here we have ongoing reincarnation at almost an inconceivable rate.
(We also get a glimpse beyond the supposed duality of freewill & determinism - but that's another topic)!

Thistlin

September 23rd, 2009, 11:58 AM

Indeed... quantum science actually presents a picture of reincarnation itself.

I often use quantum theory as a model for how we can understand the phenomena you talk about (the model is so perfect it is impossible not to), but I don't know if quantum theory is anything more than a model.

freelight

September 23rd, 2009, 12:43 PM

I do.

One issue that seems to differentiate Buddhism from Hinduism is the caste system.

How do you feel about that Freelight?

Actually it has been perverted to an extent (higher priestly castes wielding power over lower ones), but that is being reformed in modern times. Also, karma/reincarnation is invested in the logic of the caste-system since some souls are born into different castes due to their karmic tendencies, or so was/is supposed.

I look beyond most of that, but it does 'appear' that there are karmic factors determining the place, time, location and conditions of one's birth, culture, familial associations, etc. If the soul is eternal and carries some residuals of its past lives...their effects will be carried on with the soul in future embodiments for that soul to mediate, resolve, expiate. Grace provides absolution for all sins, giving souls the space & time for such. Would Love do any less?

pj

Thistlin

September 23rd, 2009, 02:02 PM

I look beyond most of that, but it does 'appear' that there are karmic factors determining the place, time, location and conditions of one's birth, culture, familial associations, etc. If the soul is eternal and carries some residuals of its past lives...their effects will be carried on with the soul in future embodiments for that soul to mediate, resolve, expiate. Grace provides absolution for all sins, giving souls the space & time for such. Would Love do any less?pjThere are several unfortunate social consequences of widespread belief that wrongful acts in previous lives can be seen as an explanation of bad luck in our choice of parents or life situation.

One of these is that it can be used to justify things like the caste system or slavery, another is that it can be used to justify a hard view toward those needing charity.

Tending to offset this is the widespread and almost superstitious idea that how we behave toward those less fortunate than us strongly influences our rebirth situation. Therefore even though we may feel that someone who suffers probably deserves it because of past-life misbehavior, still, it behooves us to be charitable in our own interest.

All of this sort of thinking falls short of the principles of compassion and non-judgmentality (seeing things as they really are, not seeing them through the filters of ideas about beauty or value or goodness).

freelight

September 23rd, 2009, 03:06 PM

There are several unfortunate social consequences of widespread belief that wrongful acts in previous lives can be seen as an explanation of bad luck in our choice of parents or life situation.

One of these is that it can be used to justify things like the caste system or slavery, another is that it can be used to justify a hard view toward those needing charity.

Tending to offset this is the widespread and almost superstitious idea that how we behave toward those less fortunate than us strongly influences our rebirth situation. Therefore even though we may feel that someone who suffers probably deserves it because of past-life misbehavior, still, it behooves us to be charitable in our own interest.

All of this sort of thinking falls short of the principles of compassion and non-judgmentality (seeing things as they really are, not seeing them through the filters of ideas about beauty or value or goodness).

True, which is why I merely research the dynamics/implications/possibilities of 'rebirth' (blending east/western teachings into a synthesis, open to innovation). While the law of love/compassion is extended to all beings, each soul is still working out its own salvation(karma), for each has its own unique conditionings.

'Rebirth' held philosophically in context of the 'bigger picture' can be left to mystery and/or possible previous life-factors that may have a part to play in the souls sojourn (cause/effect; action/reaction, the law of compensation).

Love is the same in any realm, and no partiality is to be given in unconditional loving, -.....still each lives out his own life with the innate propensities and tendencies within his own psychic nature. As long as a soul is caught up in samsara, the conditional realm of existence, it partakes of its effects, until it can transcend or unite with and as the Unconditional Self (Brahman/Atman), where it is no longer subject to the wheel of birth/death/rebirth. (as you know, hindu and buddhist views differ in details around the concept and permanence/impermanence of the 'soul') - then you have many other school-perspectives on 'rebirth'....let alone the constitution of the 'soul'.

pj

John Mortimer

September 23rd, 2009, 03:09 PM

freelight

September 23rd, 2009, 07:05 PM

Thistlin

September 24th, 2009, 02:35 AM

With regard to the above... the Ascended Master schools teach that many lifestreams willingly take on returning karma for others so that those others have a better opportunity to evolve spiritually. We can never be sure who is doing that and thus it removes any viable ground for judgementalism.I assume you are talking about Bodhisattvas in Mahayana Buddhism--Erhats or Buddhas who could enter Nirvana but instead return to be reborn over and over so as to help others find the way.

My experience is that this teaching, while important (witness all the statures of Quan Yin one sees in Vietnam), has little influence on day-to-day attitudes--far less than the influence of ideas about merit (karmic brownie points).

The plain fact is that many Vietnamese (and Chinese and Koreans too) tend to be dismissive of suffering for just this reason--even those who are not really Buddhists, because they live in an environment where this kind of thinking is pervasive. I haven't lived for any extended time in India, so I don't know if it is as common in Hindu societies, although I suspect it is.

I would not say that Buddhist teaching is the fault, nor the Buddhist institutions, since they are leaders in charities and emphasize "mindfulness" (non-judgmental observation) over speculation about someone's past, but it remains that the idea has certain perverse influences.

John Mortimer

September 24th, 2009, 03:04 AM

I would not say that Buddhist teaching is the fault, nor the Buddhist institutions, since they are leaders in charities and emphasize "mindfulness" (non-judgmental observation) over speculation about someone's past, but it remains that the idea has certain perverse influences.

The dualistic consciousness can pervert any true teaching. Surely we cannot say the idea has perverse influences... but rather, the idea is perverted by the dualistic consciousness?

Thistlin

September 24th, 2009, 03:25 AM

The dualistic consciousness can pervert any true teaching. Surely we cannot say the idea has perverse influences... but rather, the idea is perverted by the dualistic consciousness?I brought up this issue because of the message posting a comparison between Hinduism and Buddhism regarding the Indian caste system, and I thought it worthwhile to bring out that, although Buddhism does not support castes, it does have its own issues in this area.

People will draw whatever conclusions they will draw from the various teachings, even conclusions the teacher tries to discourage, if the conclusion is one they like or find flattering to themselves. This is a fact and not really a matter of much concern. That many draw adverse conclusions from the fact that someone suffers a disability or poverty or whatever is sad perhaps but in many ways they may be right. As I have heard the expression, "People are usually poor for a reason."

In short, we must be compassionate and non-judging, but we must also be realistic.

freelight

November 9th, 2009, 03:58 PM

~*~*~

Salutations,

I've resurrected the thread on Edgar Cayce (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35514), as the topic of reincarnation has come up, something that later Cayce readings affirmed as the life path of all progressing souls...learning, growing, developing thru a series of multiple life experiences. In the continuity of life, souls being born into matterial form is a natural part of the evolution of consciousness.

Reincarnation Past lives (http://www.edgarcayce.org/Reincarnation-Past-Lives/Reincarnation-Past-Lives.htm)

pj

freelight

November 10th, 2009, 09:48 PM

~*~*~

Preface:

'Reincarnation' in Judaism (gilgul) is wonderful within the orthodoxy of the faith and its mystical elements(Kaballah), as answering some of the mysteries of the human condition, processes of the soul, mediation of atonements, as a 'means' towards purification, rectification of past wrongs and ultimate restoration. It agrees in principle with most other schools that include reincarnation, although 'nuanced' in its own unique eschatology naturally. Therefore philosophically within the oral and esoteric traditions...it is accepted as a natural part of the perfecting of the soul. - we would also add that 'transmigration' is included in the 'rebirth' concept, souls or soul-fragments reincarnating in the mineral, plant and animal kingdoms. - research is essential here as "rebirth" is philosophically woven within the tapestry of the "greater picture", and a variety of perspectives are possible, also that some jews may not choose to believe in it,..however once the logics, rationale and probability of "rebirth" is truly considered, I dont see how it could not be accepted even in some mysterious way, since it accounts for things that could not be explained otherwise.

Articles -

Does Judaism believe in reincarnation? (http://www.aish.com/jl/kc/48943926.html)

What do Jews say happens when a person dies? Do Jews believe in reincarnation? In hell or heaven? Purgatory? (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-9.html)

Does Judaism support the idea of a person being reincarnated as an animal? (http://judaism.about.com/od/beliefsandlaw1/f/reincarnation.htm)

~*~*~

Judaism

While ancient Greek philosophers like Plato and Socrates attempted to prove the existence of reincarnation through philosophical proofs, Jewish mystics who accepted this idea did not.

Reincarnation appeared in Jewish thought some time after the Talmud. There is no reference to reincarnation in the Talmud or any prior writings.[34] The idea of reincarnation, called gilgul, became popular in folk belief, and is found in much Yiddish literature among Ashkenazi Jews. Among a few kabbalists, it was posited that some human souls could end up being reincarnated into non-human bodies. These ideas were found in a number of Kabbalistic works from the 1200s, and also among many mystics in the late 1500s. Martin Buber's early collection of stories of the Baal Shem Tov's life includes several that refer to people reincarnating in successive lives.[35]

Among well known (generally non-kabbalist or anti-kabbalist) Rabbis who rejected the idea of reincarnation are Saadia Gaon, David Kimhi, Hasdai Crescas, Yedayah Bedershi (early 14th century), Joseph Albo, Abraham ibn Daud, the Rosh and Leon de Modena.

Saadia Gaon, in Emunoth ve-Deoth, concludes Section vi with a refutation of the doctrine of metempsychosis (reincarnation). While refuting reincarnation, the Saadia Gaon further states that Jews who hold to reincarnation have adopted non-Jewish beliefs.

The belief is common in Orthodox Judaism. Indeed there is an entire volume of work called Sha'ar Ha'Gilgulim[36] (The Gate of Reincarnations)[1], based on the work of Rabbi Isaac Luria (and compiled by his disciple, Rabbi Chaim Vital). It describes the deep, complex laws of reincarnation. One concept that arises from Sha'ar Ha'gilgulim is the idea that gilgul is paralleled physically by pregnancy.

Many Orthodox siddurim (prayerbooks) have a nightly prayer asking for forgiveness for sins that one may have committed in this gilgul or a previous one, which accompanies the nighttime recitation of the Shema before going to sleep.[37]

- wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation)

Reincarnation and Judaism (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/reincarnation.html)

Jews Believe In Reincarnation? (http://www.jewsmuse.com/2009/03/jews-believe-in-reincarnation.html)

wiki answers (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_the_Jews_believe_in_reincarnation)

Jewish knowledge base (http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/6569/jewish/Reincarnation.htm), Kaballah perspectives (article collection recommended :) )

pj

freelight

November 15th, 2009, 04:22 PM

~*~*~

Hi all, carrying this over from the Edgar Cayce (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35514) thread -

Just to touch on the John/Elijah issue - Wiz posted this analysis -

Originally Posted by Kevin Williams / NDE (Source (http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation.html))

(1) The Hebrew scriptures prophesied that Elijah himself - not someone like him or someone in the same ministry as him but Elijah himself - would return before the advent of the Messiah.

(2) Jesus declared John to be Elijah when he stated that Elijah has come.
Based on these conclusions alone, either (A) or (B) must be true:
(A)

John was Elijah himself which means that Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist. And if this is true then reincarnation must belong once again in Christian theology. It also means that the concept of corpses crawling out of graves on Judgment Day can be discarded. OR...

(B) John was not Elijah reincarnated which means that Elijah himself did not return. And if this is true then either (1) or (2) listed below is true:

(1) Malachi's prophecy concerning Elijah's return to life before the coming of the Messiah failed to happen. This would mean that God does not keep his promise and that the Bible is fallible. OR...

(2) Jesus was not the Messiah.

Based on all the logic presented thus far, only one of the following conclusions is true:
I. Reincarnation is a reality OR...
II. Jesus was not the Messiah OR...
III. Bible prophecies are not reliable.

It is rather clear that Jesus "referred" to John as Elijah, even if John was not aware of being 'Elijah' as when asked he appeared ignorant of such. John could have been a reincarnation of Elijah in the traditional sense or identified as 'Elijah' in that he bore a soul-fragment or spiritual mantle of Elijah, and was serving as the one to prepare the way, so this is more a metaphoric application as one serving a 'role' or 'function'. We can look at this from a variety of perspectives, how John was Elijah. This opens up deeper more intricate dimensions as well...concerning soul-fragments and how that parts or aspects of souls may incarnate within a personality or physical body for a special purpose or resolve.

~*~*~

The Aquarian gospel (http://reluctant-messenger.com/aquarian_gospel.htm) affirms the canonical gospel accounts with even more emphasis -

Chapter 2, Verse 8,9

8 Your wife will bear to you a son, a holy son, of whom the prophet wrote,
9 Behold, I send Elijah unto you again before the coming of the Lord;
and he will level the hills and fill the valleys up,
and pave the way for him who shall redeem.

Chapter 103, Verse 23

23 Behold I say, This man whom Herod bound in chains and cast into a prison cell,
is God's Elijah come again to earth.

Chapter 129, Verse 35-39

35 But Peter said, The scribes have taught that e'er the king shall come Elijah must appear.
36 And Jesus said, Elijah has already come; but scribes and Pharisees received him not;
37 And men reviled him, bound him, cast him in a prison cell,
and shouted with a fiend's delight to see him die.
38 What men have done to him, that they will do to me.
39 Then the disciples understood that Jesus spoke of John whom Herod slew.

~*~*~

pj

freelight

January 17th, 2010, 10:25 PM

~*~*~

With ample viewpoints, considerations and all possibilties of 'reincarnation' researched so far,...we review more wonderful insights into the concept of 'rebirth' or 're-embodiments' of soul.

Here Gerald shares the idea of 'God' Himself, reincarnating...recreating duplicates or 'cloning' himself in different body/mind forms, different 'animate interfaces' so that Consciousness can continue to learn, discover, explore, and experience thru that particular 'viewpoint' or 'portal' of individuality, adding/contributing to the over-all experience and knowledge of the One. So, God the Infinite One (Universal Mind/Spirit) is individualizing itself as the "many", the manifold diversity of individual souls within the Matrix of itSelf....re-embodying himself in the con-currency of continued experience and expanding Self-knowledge. From this perspective,....all is God in multiple forms, units, extensions of Himself, expanding thru-out Infinite space, carrying on the course of its own innate will, inter-relating, innovating, experiencing, engaging in its own "translation" (the inter-acting/relational activity of itself, exploring all possibilities and potentials).

Nothing of value is lost after the temporal form (matterial body/brain) disintegrates, - all true values, meanings via experience and relationship are carried within the soul-memory of each 'cell', it passing onto the One, reintegrating back, incorporated....to be extended again or carried within a higher spiritual form, not returning to reincarnate into a physical body. - all souls are at varying stages along the spiritual journey, which determines or coordinates their course at any point in time.

Reincarnation any One? (http://www.probablefuture.com/reincarnation.htm)

pj

Infinity

January 18th, 2010, 08:21 AM

freelight

January 18th, 2010, 02:00 PM

This is an interesting discussion. As a former Christian Scientist I have not been thinking about the doctrine of rebirth before. It was very good to get to know that the mystic Joel Goldsmith taught it as well. I do believe that "To love, to forgive and to be compassionate are some of the lessons spirits should learn to apply while incarnated on earth" ,as you write.
Read the Murray-course in Divine Science and I think that he denied reincarnation. As for the other New Thought schools I am not informed.
I am just studying the world-religions at school and look forward to learn more about this universal doctrine.
Do you have any thoughts were to start to explore more? I will check out your links.
Thanks

Your fellowstudent on the Infinite Spiritual Path
Johan

Hi Johan,

I'm not sure the official view of Christian Science on the subject, and it seems like its an optional viewpoint of speculation among even students of Divine Science, and New Thought in general...as the spiritual teaching focuses on the 'metaphysics' of consciousness, which pertain to souls in whatever dimension, since the universal laws still apply to consciousness.

Joel S. Goldsmith (http://joelgoldsmith.wwwhubs.com/) of the Infinite Way teachings appears to have personally accepted rebirth, by accounts of his own precognition. The spiritual principles still hold if one accepts a kind of 'rebirth' or not.

This thread covers pretty well the subject from within the world religions and other prominent schools. You'll find the links and commentary most helpful.

pj

freelight

February 27th, 2010, 03:16 AM

~*~*~

Below is a lovely poem hinting the underlying intuitive light of the soul's many embodiments....

WHERE FROM?

How did I come by my laughter and brawn?
How have I come by my nerve?
How have I come by the thrills of my heart
That give me the wild ache to serve?

How do I come by the flash of my thought?
How do I come by my love?
How do I come by the chord of my joy
When angel wings beat close above?

Where did I learn how to sidestep the wrong?
Where have I learned how to fight?
Where did I learn how to open the door
That lets in bright cohorts of Light?

Where did I learn why the oceans of stars
Rest like old waves on my head?
Where have I learned that living is Life
And Death is a jest to the dead?

Why need I doubt I have been here before?
Why need I contrast despair?
Why should I say with a curl to my lip
That Time has no more Iives to spare?

One life on earth? The thought is absurd;
The High Gods are lost in their age.
I write with the minions of Light up the years,
For I am mine own cosmic page!

-William Dudley Pelley (http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/William_Dudley_Pelley) (From Twilight Clear)

William Pelley is a wonderfully enigmatic character with an interesting history, of which culminated in the formation of what he called 'Soulcraft teachings (http://www.soulcraftteachings.com/home.html)' which he received from the higher planes, and the Master of which he presumed to be the historical Jesus, the Great Teacher. The primary volume of communications were compiled as 'The Golden Scripts'.

pj

zippy2006

March 5th, 2010, 07:53 PM

Continuing... (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64332&page=3)

I answered the subject appropriately providing the solution.

God could only create out of the essence of His own Being. The essence of Gods Being could be called No-Thing (not a 'thing', but the 'substance' of which all 'things' are composed).

I disagree, and I don't think contemplations on the question itself will lead us anywhere, rather effects of the great cause should be looked at. But we can leave it at reincarnation for now.

Not begging any questions. The term 'philosophic' here is 'descriptive' in that I accept the philosophical logics behind the idea. The rest is semantics. - this subject is covered amply in the Reincarnation thread. - inquire there, - if you have more questions/comments...thats the appropriate thread.

pj

What philosophical logics?

Reincarnation gives me no more philosophical grounding than anything else in any great sense:

1. Where did the line of reincarnations begin?

2. If it began when God created himself out of himself, or basically split himself into many seemingly differentiated parts, then why? Why make waves in the ocean and why don't we know we are simply waves in the ocean?

3. What is the end point of reincarnation? Everything points to a conclusion, yet what is it? Integration with God or finally realizing we are God? Why were we split in the first place, why did we lose the knowledge?

there are as many questions created as answered

freelight

March 5th, 2010, 10:23 PM

~*~*~

Continuing... (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64332&page=3) from another thread .......

What philosophical logics?

First lets understand that this entire thread covers my elaborations on the subject of "rebirth",...so you'll have to read the thread, I cant always rehash things, although I'm rather liberal in recovering...but readers ought to afford themselves what an author has already written on the subject especially if readily accessible. The thread's dialogues and resource-pages will likely cover all your questions below.

The philosophic logic of 'rebirth' is self-explanatory... as 'rebirth' and 'resurrection' are essentially both processes of 'transformation' of the soul-body 'en-route' the path of eternal progression/perfection.

Reincarnation gives me no more philosophical grounding than anything else in any great sense:

1. Where did the line of reincarnations begin?

2. If it began when God created himself out of himself, or basically split himself into many seemingly differentiated parts, then why? Why make waves in the ocean and why don't we know we are simply waves in the ocean?

3. What is the end point of reincarnation? Everything points to a conclusion, yet what is it? Integration with God or finally realizing we are God? Why were we split in the first place, why did we lose the knowledge?

These are the essential questions most religious traditions attempt to address and answer....which a religionist ought have a common knowledge, at least in principle. Ask yourself these questions, do a little soul-searching. Read the thread. Make the investment. Do your own homework (essential for a student).

there are as many questions created as answered

Life is like that you know, a wonderful adventure eh? I dont bother too much with boggling myself with the questions, but enjoying the QUEST itself. Each question has within it its own answer, for perhaps the answer gave birth to the question ;) - maybe Creation is 'God' in-dividing/multiplying himself an an engagement of 'Self-translation'....from which emerge the quest-ions of existence and their possibilities, so that 'God' is ever providing answers for the questions that emerge, as ever-producing solutions. Life is dynamic!...and all effects are already innate within their 'causes'. Collapse or compress all space/time...and cause/effect are One :)

~*~*~

In this sister-thread I cover more of my views on "rebirth" -

What if reincarnation is an essential part of Christianity and it was totally missed? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52135)

These 2 threads I've dedicated alot to sharing my views (thats all they are, 'views'). Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and other faiths each have their own perspectives on the subject which are covered here.

pj

John Mortimer

March 5th, 2010, 10:51 PM

Where did the line of reincarnations begin?

When beings, using their free will, adopted the consciousness of separation from their common Source - God.

What is the end point of reincarnation?

Ascension.

zippy2006

March 5th, 2010, 10:55 PM

When beings, using their free will, adopted the consciousness of separation from their common Source - God.

Ascension.

Thanks for the clear reply John. I agree that this sort of reincarnation could be plausible within a Christian context, but what of the pantheistic ideas I referred to?

The big question is: are we God?

zippy2006

March 5th, 2010, 11:03 PM

Life is like that you know, a wonderful adventure eh? I dont bother too much with boggling myself with the questions, but enjoying the QUEST itself. Each question has within it its own answer, for perhaps the answer gave birth to the question ;) - maybe Creation is 'God' in-dividing/multiplying himself an an engagement of 'Self-translation'....from which emerge the quest-ions of existence and their possibilities, so that 'God' is ever providing answers for the questions that emerge, as ever-producing solutions. Life is dynamic!...and all effects are already innate within their 'causes'. Collapse or compress all space/time...and cause/effect are One :)

pj

There is only a quest if there exists a goal. There is never a journey without a destination.

I understand the idea of reincarnation quite well thank you. It isn't that reincarnation is inherently at odds with Christianity, it is that the creation story and the idea that we are all God does not at all fit in with reality. The question is the one I posed to John: Are we God? And what does that mean?

John Mortimer

March 5th, 2010, 11:21 PM

Thanks for the clear reply John. I agree that this sort of reincarnation could be plausible within a Christian context, but what of the pantheistic ideas I referred to?

The big question is: are we God?

Yes, we are God.
However it is important to expound upon the meaning of such a statement.

In the statement, "We are God", what is meant by "we"?
It is the infinite life force of our essential being, (I AM), as distinct from our existential being, (originally Imago Dei), which steps forth from that which enables us to know and to affirm "I am". Our essential being is "I am" - our existential being is "I am...........". What we make of God's energy, God's life force, will be divine if it is one with the Word, the Logos, the mind of Christ; if it is not one with the Christ mind it will be sin and "miss the mark", meaning that the Divine energy has not been qualified in such a way that it can flow back to its Divine Source and be multiplied and sent back again... the talent has been hidden in the ground instead of multiplied.

With reference to orthodox Christianity - the absolute immanence of God is affirmed as well as the absolute transcendence of God.

Pantheism as it is generally defined only sees a part of the big picture because it does not see the Divine transcendence.

Be that as it may, "In Him we live and move and have our being". If something is NOT God then it has no ultimate reality and no immortality - such will be consumed by the Divine fire. But that which is co-created by means of the Word will not be consumed by the sacred fire.

If there could be anything that was real, immortal, that was not God then God would be merely a great being alongside other beings.... a god rather than the infinite ground of all being.

freelight

March 5th, 2010, 11:23 PM

There is only a quest if there exists a goal. There is never a journey without a destination.

I understand the idea of reincarnation quite well thank you. It isn't that reincarnation is inherently at odds with Christianity, it is that the creation story and the idea that we are all God does not at all fit in with reality. The question is the one I posed to John: Are we God? And what does that mean?

If 'God' is Sentient-existence, living-consciousness...being Self-aware...then we are of 'God' and God-extensions, expressions, individualized units of God-consciousness. Now how we define/reference 'God' from various non-dual or dual perspectives will vary our descriptions and explanations within such contexts.

Souls as 'parts and parcels' of God...can quite logically continue their journey of life-experience within various 'vehicles' or 'embodiments' to fulfill their life-purpose and experience-potential as the fulfillment of creation/evolution within 'animate-matter'. Life itself has within it its own innate and evolving potentials/possibilities.

Life is a creative venture,....consciousness in translation.

pj

zippy2006

March 5th, 2010, 11:56 PM

Yes, we are God.
However it is important to expound upon the meaning of such a statement.

In the statement, "We are God", what is meant by "we"?
It is the infinite life force of our essential being, (I AM), as distinct from our existential being, (originally Imago Dei), which steps forth from that which enables us to know and to affirm "I am". Our essential being is "I am" - our existential being is "I am...........".

Okay I'm with you so far.

What we make of God's energy, God's life force, will be divine if it is one with the Word, the Logos, the mind of Christ; if it is not one with the Christ mind it will be sin and "miss the mark", meaning that the Divine energy has not been qualified in such a way that it can flow back to its Divine Source and be multiplied and sent back again... the talent has been hidden in the ground instead of multiplied.

This is the problem I run into whenever I think about these things. You differentiated between us and God. You gave a condition for divinity. Are we God or are we not? It seems to say that we aren't necessarily God. How could God miss the mark of God?

With reference to orthodox Christianity - the absolute immanence of God is affirmed as well as the absolute transcendence of God.

Pantheism as it is generally defined only sees a part of the big picture because it does not see the Divine transcendence.

Yes I understand this.

Be that as it may, "In Him we live and move and have our being". If something is NOT God then it has no ultimate reality and no immortality - such will be consumed by the Divine fire. But that which is co-created by means of the Word will not be consumed by the sacred fire.

Which brings up an interesting question, is annihilation possible? Why bring up the "Divine fire" if we are immune, being God?

If there could be anything that was real, immortal, that was not God then God would be merely a great being alongside other beings.... a god rather than the infinite ground of all being.

Here I would say that we are real and immortal and not God. The difference is God's eternity and necessity, which we do not have. This also seems to suggest that we could not co-exist forever alongside God so to speak, that we must become one with Him and lose our own identity? And where does our identity or self come from?

Another question, what is the difference between us and Jesus in your opinion? Is there a difference?

:e4e:

~Agnostic~

March 6th, 2010, 12:02 AM

Its a universal process of the soul's natural progression within time and eternity thru many bodies, dimensions and environments.do you believe that we 'reincarnate' back into this same physical dimension, or instead 'incarnate' into many other dimensions? i don't believe so much in 'reincarnation' (coming back to this dimension) as i believe in 'incarnations' (always incarnating in new and different dimensions).

zippy2006

March 6th, 2010, 12:06 AM

If 'God' is Sentient-existence, living-consciousness...being Self-aware...then we are of 'God' and God-extensions, expressions, individualized units of God-consciousness. Now how we define/reference 'God' from various non-dual or dual perspectives will vary our descriptions and explanations within such contexts.

Souls as 'parts and parcels' of God...can quite logically continue their journey of life-experience within various 'vehicles' or 'embodiments' to fulfill their life-purpose and experience-potential as the fulfillment of creation/evolution within 'animate-matter'. Life itself has within it its own innate and evolving potentials/possibilities.

Life is a creative venture,....consciousness in translation.

pj

"Made in the image of God." This isn't saying we are a unit of the whole of God.

Though the philosophical differences are subtle, the experiential proof is not. I am not God, I am quite wretched as the Christians say. I may be able to aspire to something God-like, but I am not at present God-like. I think that, in recognizing this truth, we come closer to God and to knowing reality. Humility is set in place, duty is set in place, as well as love with a receiver of that love. In adopting this worldview, all of these essential elements are given life and purpose which are easily lost in the pantheistic "I am God" worldview. I answer to something higher than myself, I am not that thing to which I answer to.

This isn't necessarily in opposition to John M, since I think I have slightly different definitions of certain words than he does.

freelight

March 6th, 2010, 12:23 AM

do you believe that we 'reincarnate' back into this same physical dimension, or instead 'incarnate' into many other dimensions? i don't believe so much in 'reincarnation' (coming back to this dimension) as i believe in 'incarnations' (always incarnating in new and different dimensions).

I think both are quite possible, also varies among schools. In a cosmic University, souls may take on new adventures in dimensions(worlds) which offer opportunities for exploration, growth, development, unfolding their god-potential.

pj

John Mortimer

March 6th, 2010, 12:53 AM

This is the problem I run into whenever I think about these things. You differentiated between us and God. You gave a condition for divinity. Are we God or are we not? It seems to say that we aren't necessarily God. How could God miss the mark of God?

Yes, this is why I was careful to say that it is important to expound upon what we mean by "we" in the statement, "We are God".

God never misses the mark of God but the Image of God - the original identity created as a finite individualization of the Creator - is free to create a soul vehicle which will enable it to embody within the material universe. [When I use the expression, "material universe", I don't just mean the physical energies but also the emotional, mental and etheric energies of the universe]. This soul vehicle is in turn free to adopt whatever identity it chooses for itself. It can create a sense of identity which sees itself as separated from God and possibly even in opposition to God. Such a sense of identity, whilst having no ultimate reality, is given the temporary appearance of reality by the creative power of the finite mind. This false sense of identity, (which I designate the "ego"), necessarily generates thoughts that are less than divine, which in turn generates emotions which are less than divine, which in turn produce actions and behaviours that are less than divine.
The ego is the reprobate "old man" of Paul's epistles - the carnal mind that identifies itself as primarily a physical being rather than a spiritual being in physical embodiment.

Which brings up an interesting question, is annihilation possible? Why bring up the "Divine fire" if we are immune, being God?

Yes, annihilation of the soul is indeed possible and this is what the second death in Revelation refers to.
The Divine fire has nothing to do with wrath or punishment - it is simply the energies that constitute the soul matrix returning to the Divine purity and giving the appearance of "fire" in mystical visions such as those recorded faithfully in the book of Revelation.
If the soul has become so identified with the ego that nothing remains of the orginal Imago Dei within the soul-vehicle then annihilation of the soul vehicle occurs. However it must be remembered that the true, (divine), identity of the individual is unaffected by such an annihilation of the soul. The Imago Dei is designated the I AM Presence. The I AM Presence exists in the Spiritual realm, in the heavenlies. These very important matters take us off track in this thread but freelight has another thread, "The Mighty I AM Presence", if you'd like to discuss this further.

Here I would say that we are real and immortal and not God. The difference is God's eternity and necessity, which we do not have.

Well, it is a matter of perception... the ego most assuredly does not have eternity and necessity; neither has the ego immortality or permanent reality.

This also seems to suggest that we could not co-exist forever alongside God so to speak, that we must become one with Him and lose our own identity? And where does our identity or self come from?

That's where the false sense of identity manifests. God is seen as a remote being outside of oneself, yet the Kingdom of God is within you. God is All and God is One. From the highest perspective there is nothing other than the One. All true individualizations are part of the indivisible One in-divided. This is why Paul lays such emphasis on being IN Christ, (not merely associated with Christ), and having the mind of Christ.
It is in fact the consciousness of separation from God that breaks down individuality... breaks down our original Divine blueprint as inscribed upon the soul.
The original Imago Dei is the I AM Presence, free to create another soul-vehicle that can aim at ascension if the original soul is annihilated.

Another question, what is the difference between us and Jesus in your opinion? Is there a difference?

:e4e:

The major difference is that Jesus is an ascended being and we are not, (yet ;)), ascended because we continue in many ways to deny God within ourselves.

zippy2006

March 6th, 2010, 12:30 PM

Yes, this is why I was careful to say that it is important to expound upon what we mean by "we" in the statement, "We are God".

God never misses the mark of God but the Image of God - the original identity created as a finite individualization of the Creator - is free to create a soul vehicle which will enable it to embody within the material universe. [When I use the expression, "material universe", I don't just mean the physical energies but also the emotional, mental and etheric energies of the universe]. This soul vehicle is in turn free to adopt whatever identity it chooses for itself. It can create a sense of identity which sees itself as separated from God and possibly even in opposition to God. Such a sense of identity, whilst having no ultimate reality, is given the temporary appearance of reality by the creative power of the finite mind. This false sense of identity, (which I designate the "ego"), necessarily generates thoughts that are less than divine, which in turn generates emotions which are less than divine, which in turn produce actions and behaviours that are less than divine.
The ego is the reprobate "old man" of Paul's epistles - the carnal mind that identifies itself as primarily a physical being rather than a spiritual being in physical embodiment.

Okay, first of all, I must simply ask why? And how do you know such things? It seems like running a marathon in a roundabout way when the destination was a block away.

Secondly, why would God choose such a coarse ego that is so far away from God? Why would a loving God choose to be ignorantly carnal? Before you said that it was due to The Fall, and now you say it is a choice. The problem is: why would God fall? Why would God make such a bad choice, thus separating from....Himself...?

Yes, annihilation of the soul is indeed possible and this is what the second death in Revelation refers to.
The Divine fire has nothing to do with wrath or punishment - it is simply the energies that constitute the soul matrix returning to the Divine purity and giving the appearance of "fire" in mystical visions such as those recorded faithfully in the book of Revelation.
If the soul has become so identified with the ego that nothing remains of the orginal Imago Dei within the soul-vehicle then annihilation of the soul vehicle occurs. However it must be remembered that the true, (divine), identity of the individual is unaffected by such an annihilation of the soul. The Imago Dei is designated the I AM Presence. The I AM Presence exists in the Spiritual realm, in the heavenlies. These very important matters take us off track in this thread but freelight has another thread, "The Mighty I AM Presence", if you'd like to discuss this further.

Okay I think I can identify with this a bit better. The only reason that divine identity is unaffected by annihilation is because there is no divine identity? Nothing remains of the original Imago Dei? Is it not then complete annihilation of that thing that we are?

Well, it is a matter of perception... the ego most assuredly does not have eternity and necessity; neither has the ego immortality or permanent reality.

Yes, of course I was referring to the soul, but that's fine.

That's where the false sense of identity manifests. God is seen as a remote being outside of oneself, yet the Kingdom of God is within you. God is All and God is One. From the highest perspective there is nothing other than the One. All true individualizations are part of the indivisible One in-divided. This is why Paul lays such emphasis on being IN Christ, (not merely associated with Christ), and having the mind of Christ.
It is in fact the consciousness of separation from God that breaks down individuality... breaks down our original Divine blueprint as inscribed upon the soul.
The original Imago Dei is the I AM Presence, free to create another soul-vehicle that can aim at ascension if the original soul is annihilated.

Again, why would God don a false sense of identity? Why would God sin in the first place and be separated and thrown into ignorance?

I am also doubtful as to how the original Imago Dei is free to create another soul vehicle in the case of the Divine fire as outlined above. There is no Imago Dei left (as you said), and everything else is consumed in the fire.

The major difference is that Jesus is an ascended being and we are not, (yet ;)), ascended because we continue in many ways to deny God within ourselves.

Okay that's what I thought. Same question, why does God deny God?

:cheers:

freelight

March 6th, 2010, 02:42 PM

The problem is: why would God fall? Why would God make such a bad choice, thus separating from....Himself...?

'The Fall' is a classic 'mythic-explanation' of man's plight, that man uses to explain their 'apparent' imperfect condition. If 'God' is the divine light, spark, consciousness within every soul,...and we are now here in this matterial world of space/time finity....then obviously our perception and 'condition' is limited by the the physical body/brain, and we tend to identify with this matterial body/brain(ego) and all its imperfect conditionings.

However the soul has opportunity in this dimension to learn from 'experience', mediating, understanding its conditioning and discovering thru 'true knowledge'(gnosis) its real spirit-nature, its immortal identity in 'God'. 'God' is never seperate from himself(being One Spirit), however He has by his creative will extended himself to involve and evolve within the expanse of Creation for his own experience of Self-translation, adventure and discovery...tapping all the potentials of INFINITY.

Again, why would God don a false sense of identity? Why would God sin in the first place and be separated and thrown into ignorance?

Various mythologies attempt to explain this. The beauty and challenge of incarnation itself is? - why would God create and descend fragments (divine sparks) of himself joining them to living souls to experience mortality in bodies of flesh? It would appear for the value of "experience" itself, and all that can be 'gained/realized' within such incarnations...all matterial worlds converging within the Great Soul of God as a Matrix of ever-expanding creation and Self-evolution. Why else? - Life appears NOW to be potent with all that it can Be and Be-come...within the creative-will capacities and powers of all sentient beings that have real power to move in concert with divine will.

pj

zippy2006

March 6th, 2010, 05:02 PM

'The Fall' is a classic 'mythic-explanation' of man's plight, that man uses to explain their 'apparent' imperfect condition. If 'God' is the divine light, spark, consciousness within every soul,...and we are now here in this matterial world of space/time finity....then obviously our perception and 'condition' is limited by the the physical body/brain, and we tend to identify with this matterial body/brain(ego) and all its imperfect conditionings.

It ain't apparent, it's imperfect. You haven't answered the question, why would we come to be limited to the physical, why would we identify with it, why would God come to any of these things?

Various mythologies attempt to explain this. The beauty and challenge of incarnation itself is? - why would God create and descend fragments (divine sparks) of himself joining them to living souls to experience mortality in bodies of flesh? It would appear for the value of "experience" itself, and all that can be 'gained/realized' within such incarnations...all matterial worlds converging within the Great Soul of God as a Matrix of ever-expanding creation and Self-evolution. Why else? - Life appears NOW to be potent with all that it can Be and Be-come...within the creative-will capacities and powers of all sentient beings that have real power to move in concert with divine will.

pj

Why else? Love. Because God created souls and entities apart from himself as an act of love to give them experience and life. I think that experience for love's sake is a much better reason than experience for experience's sake.

And if there is nothing apart from God, then he just played a trick on himself by pretending that there was. It all seems so silly and philosophically deficient to me.

freelight

March 6th, 2010, 09:29 PM

Why else? Love. Because God created souls and entities apart from himself as an act of love to give them experience and life. I think that experience for love's sake is a much better reason than experience for experience's sake.

Yes,....I didnt mention the word 'Love' in that last paragraph...for its 'granted', instrinsic,...the original-motive of Life itself. Love is the Law of Existence,...the creative will of creation.

And if there is nothing apart from God, then he just played a trick on himself by pretending that there was. It all seems so silly and philosophically deficient to me.

God pervades all, and is One. Until one gets this...there is no understanding of Non-Duality. We then move on to see duality(relationships) within the One better,...seeing the 'simultaneous oneness and difference' of the soul and God. We are born from God, extend and relate to God, but are ever One with that from which we extend, and could not be seperate by virtue of our 'being' which cannot 'Be' without God. - our sense of personality does have is own individuality relatively speaking as far as we are aware of a functioning 'ego' within relationship with other sentient beings.

Our sharing would be resolved or better comprehended seeing that God and the soul are both one and different, simultaneously...for nothing exists apart from God's potencies and all-pervading energies, and souls (jiva-atmans) are the very offsprings of 'God'. Consciousness is of one qualitative substance, although quantified variously.

Back to why we are here - this has been explored page after page (Life is kinda like that,...endless chapters ;) ) Love is at the heart of all, which extends its own Self in multiples to engage in relational community. Creation then, is the movement of 'God' in space/time relativity in symphony with Love's will.

pj

zippy2006

March 6th, 2010, 11:41 PM

Yes,....I didnt mention the word 'Love' in that last paragraph...for its 'granted', instrinsic,...the original-motive of Life itself. Love is the Law of Existence,...the creative will of creation.

God pervades all, and is One. Until one gets this...there is no understanding of Non-Duality. We then move on to see duality(relationships) within the One better,...seeing the 'simultaneous oneness and difference' of the soul and God. We are born from God, extend and relate to God, but are ever One with that from which we extend, and could not be seperate by virtue of our 'being' which cannot 'Be' without God. - our sense of personality does have is own individuality relatively speaking as far as we are aware of a functioning 'ego' within relationship with other sentient beings.

Our sharing would be resolved or better comprehended seeing that God and the soul are both one and different, simultaneously...for nothing exists apart from God's potencies and all-pervading energies, and souls (jiva-atmans) are the very offsprings of 'God'. Consciousness is of one qualitative substance, although quantified variously.

Back to why we are here - this has been explored page after page (Life is kinda like that,...endless chapters ;) ) Love is at the heart of all, which extends its own Self in multiples to engage in relational community. Creation then, is the movement of 'God' in space/time relativity in symphony with Love's will.

pj

Okay cool, we agree then in part :)

I still hold that Love requires an object of love and that your explanations of why we are here are rather unsatisfactory in a philosophical sense, but I think we agree that philosophy isn't a concern for such a system?

If you still hold that it is philisophically coherent, I guess I just disagree and I doubt we would get much further at present.

:e4e:

freelight

March 7th, 2010, 01:48 AM

Okay cool, we agree then in part :)

I still hold that Love requires an object of love and that your explanations of why we are here are rather unsatisfactory in a philosophical sense, but I think we agree that philosophy isn't a concern for such a system?

If you still hold that it is philisophically coherent, I guess I just disagree and I doubt we would get much further at present.

:e4e:

Who is denying that Love requires an object of love or another sentient being to relate to? (this just happens to be the case within relativity). Love is its own satisfaction and 'of course' is a 'shared experience' (within relationships).

Spirit is forever coherent, within all its dimensional over-lays and associations. One Matrix, with many offspring...engaging 'translation' (exchanging information).

Love provides us with as many 'vehicles'(bodies) we need to fully experience Love's wholeness and infinite number of ways towards fulfillment. - this is why the purposeful activity of "rebirth" continues.....

pj

zippy2006

March 7th, 2010, 02:14 AM

Who is denying that Love requires an object of love or another sentient being to relate to? (this just happens to be the case within relativity). Love is its own satisfaction and 'of course' is a 'shared experience' (within relationships).

You imply love outside of the relational existence (or have in the past when we have talked about it). You say that the divine motive for creation was love, yet there was (and is, at the highest level) no relationship possible. All is God.

Spirit is forever coherent, within all its dimensional over-lays and associations. One Matrix, with many offspring...engaging 'translation' (exchanging information).

Okay free, this is a good example of why I, and others, sometimes get frustrated with you. What does this mean, did you say anything here? And if anything substantial was said that I missed, what in the world is justification for such a thing?

Love provides us with as many 'vehicles'(bodies) we need to fully experience Love's wholeness and infinite number of ways towards fulfillment. - this is why the purposeful activity of "rebirth" continues.....

pj

See I want to ask why this is so, how you know it, how you can go into such detail, etc., but this never leads anywhere meaningful it seems. I really only asked why rebirth started, but I guess that is another pickle--why it continues and when it ends.

freelight

March 7th, 2010, 04:37 AM

You imply love outside of the relational existence (or have in the past when we have talked about it). You say that the divine motive for creation was love, yet there was (and is, at the highest level) no relationship possible. All is God.

God as 'non-dual'(One) is still LOVE, for such is the Pure essence of his Nature, before any relativity or duality......and expressing within all relativity. 'God' is all-pervading.

Remember, we recognize both 'non-duality' and 'duality' aspects of existence.

See I want to ask why this is so, how you know it, how you can go into such detail, etc., but this never leads anywhere meaningful it seems. I really only asked why rebirth started, but I guess that is another pickle--why it continues and when it ends.

The philosophical logics of "rebirth" have amply been presented in 2 threads so far, of which you have complete access. Viewpoints of many of the main religious cultures who hold to 'rebirth' have been linked. Life is a process of multiple experience. The soul in its eternal progression naturally lives in many different environs in its sojourn of 'experience' within the providence of Love. Why do souls even 'embody'? Well, the body is a 'vehicle',..and a 'vehicle' exists for a purpose. - the body/brain servs the soul and spirit temporarily ...enabling it to function within this or other matterial worlds.

An excellent booklet on this is by William D. Pelley - ' Beyond Grandeur (http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache%3AkD4NQFtDrW4J%3Awww.sanctusgermanu s.net%2Febooks%2FBeyond%2520Grandeur%2520by%2520Wi lliam%2520D.Pelley.pdf+Beyond+Grandeur+William+Pel ley&hl=en&gl=us)' (converted from pdf to html, some minor spelling errors, but overall a great insight into the soul being 'designed for immortality' and the 'purpose' behind the cycles of rebirth until one no longer needs to be reincarnated, then continuing their progress and service in the spirit-world or being absorbed back into Spirit in 'nirvanic union').

This thread is a 'portal' for those interested or drawn to the subject of 'reincarnation', so serves its educative purpose. For me its a philosophical perspective, not necessarily a dogma, as I've gleaned from schools that accept such and those that reject it. - the universal truth of the 'eternal progression' of the soul as a philosophical principle still holds, no matter the mechanics of transformation. - Life goes on......hence I remain a 'spiritualist' at heart.....holding to the essential precepts of Spiritualism (http://www.interfarfacing.com/7original_principles.htm).

pj

John Mortimer

March 7th, 2010, 05:04 AM

Okay, first of all, I must simply ask why? And how do you know such things? It seems like running a marathon in a roundabout way when the destination was a block away.

The process of creation has a vast history. I will give a very simplistic summary of my current understanding because it will at least give us a frame of reference:

Within the Allness of God are Presences, which we can think of as analogous to our soul attributes. One such presence is the Creator, which by analogy may be thought of as the focussed Being of God's creativity.
In the beginning the Creator focussed His Being into a singularity, producing a void around Him. (We may think of the void as an infinite sphere). The Creator then created light. Forms of various kinds were then introduced into the matrix structure of the creation, (the matrix deriving from the Logos - the Word of creation), by means of impressing thoughtforms upon the light.
The light was drawn from the Creator's own Being... for there was no other creative source but the Divine consciousness. Indeed all light, all energy, all information IS consciousness even now, (though not all of it divine at this point).
The creation was and is a living creation. Having given creation life and momentum, the Creator then created individualizations of himself to continue the work of creation by embodying the Logos from within the creation itself.

One can think of the transcendent Creator as the Divine Father and the light as the Divine Mother. Sons and Daughters of God are thereby raised up by means of the creative process. The goal - at least from one perspective - is to fill the sphere with light and to raise the frequency of that light until the sphere can actually ascend and become consciously one with the Creator... which means that God becomes more God.

The first created sphere did indeed ascend. The now ascended, (yet still ever self-transcending), individualizations of God were given the task of designing and initiating a second sphere of creation. These ascended beings created two types of individualizations of themselves in order to accomplish the cycle of creation in the second sphere.

[At this point I should say that as successive spheres are created there is a necessary increase in energy density...... in all honesty I don't know why this is the case as it has to do with aspects of the Logos which are beyond me at this time. Suffice it to say that the process becomes more complex with each succeeding sphere].

Back to the two types of individualizations created by the beings who ascended from the first sphere...
One type we can designate "co-creators", who were just like the original individualizations the Creator sent into the first sphere; the second type we can designate "angels". The co-creators would embody into the creation itself and raise the vibration of the sphere from within, working from "below->up", starting in the dense energies and lowest frequencies, whilst the angels would assist the co-creators from the higher realms, working from the top->down.
This scheme was completely successful and the second sphere ascended.
A similar scheme was proposed for the third sphere, although this time the energies into which the co-creators would embody were very dense in comparison to the second sphere and there was the possibility that the limitations of finite existence and the relativistic nature of manifestation in these lower and denser energies would mean that co-creators could become confused and even lose their conscious connection with their common source.
This caused a certain band of angels to propose that the co-creators should not be granted freedom of will until they had attained a given level of consciousness. There was a division of opinion about this and the matter was put to the Creator to decide. The Creator sanctioned the granting of freewill to the co-creators and this enraged the angelic party that advised against it. They refused to participate in the creative process of the third sphere and simply stood back, expecting chaos and the opportunity to effectively say, "We told you so!"
When it became clear that the third sphere was entering an ascension spiral and that the dire warnings of the angelic party that opposed unconditional freedom of will for co-creators were unfounded they took action to try to stop the ascension spiral. This was an all-out rebellion which aimed quite literally at universal destruction. As a result of their rebellion their collective consciousness entered a downward spiral and they were not able to ascend with the third sphere.
Where then did they go? Into the new fourth sphere, (which includes our present universe). These angelic beings actively seek the total destruction of everything divinely created, so low has their consciousness dropped.

As I say, that's severely summarized but it provides a frame of reference.

Secondly, why would God choose such a coarse ego that is so far away from God? Why would a loving God choose to be ignorantly carnal? Before you said that it was due to The Fall, and now you say it is a choice. The problem is: why would God fall? Why would God make such a bad choice, thus separating from....Himself...?

When we consider the sending of divine individualizations into the material universe, (The I AM Presence creates a soul vehicle in embodiment), it is analogous to a new born child emerging from the womb of the Divine Mother. A new-born's consciousness is extremely limited compared to a full grown adult. At this point I would definitely commend freelight's comments from his earlier post as an excellent commentary on why the process is as it is. Hopefully I have placed it in larger context.

There are, in this sphere of creation, forces acting which are hostile to God and the creation. These forces have no ultimate reality but they certainly do have a temporary manifestation and subtle perversion of wisdom.

I'm not trying to transfer blame to these fallen beings because each of us is responsible for the decisions we make. However all of us are in the situation we are in now because we took on an initiation before we were ready for it. That initiation was the experience of duality consciousness - the "knowledge of good and evil". Within the consciousness of duality the serpentine lies appear plausible. When we began to descend in consciousness and made mistakes, (the karmic laws of reaping-and-sowing ensured that we realized they actually were mistakes), we were accused by the serpentine forces of being unworthy, which was why God was punishing us, and that is essentially why each of us became fearful and decided not to make any more mistakes by simply not making any more decisions. This gave rise to the ego - a counterfeit personality that would adapt to the duality consciousness so that we could get by without feeling responsible for the everyday type decisions that we perceived as forced upon us by external circumstances.

Nothing remains of the original Imago Dei? Is it not then complete annihilation of that thing that we are?

No, it is the Imago Dei inscribed upon the soul-vehicle that can indeed be erased. The Imago Dei is retained forever by the I AM Presence. Your true self is your I AM Presence.

Okay that's what I thought. Same question, why does God deny God?

God never denies God... it is the ego that denies God.

zippy2006

March 7th, 2010, 12:44 PM

The process of creation has a vast history. I will give a very simplistic summary of my current understanding because it will at least give us a frame of reference:

Within the Allness of God are Presences, which we can think of as analogous to our soul attributes. One such presence is the Creator, which by analogy may be thought of as the focussed Being of God's creativity.
In the beginning the Creator focussed His Being into a singularity, producing a void around Him. (We may think of the void as an infinite sphere). The Creator then created light. Forms of various kinds were then introduced into the matrix structure of the creation, (the matrix deriving from the Logos - the Word of creation), by means of impressing thoughtforms upon the light.
The light was drawn from the Creator's own Being... for there was no other creative source but the Divine consciousness. Indeed all light, all energy, all information IS consciousness even now, (though not all of it divine at this point).
The creation was and is a living creation. Having given creation life and momentum, the Creator then created individualizations of himself to continue the work of creation by embodying the Logos from within the creation itself.

One can think of the transcendent Creator as the Divine Father and the light as the Divine Mother. Sons and Daughters of God are thereby raised up by means of the creative process. The goal - at least from one perspective - is to fill the sphere with light and to raise the frequency of that light until the sphere can actually ascend and become consciously one with the Creator... which means that God becomes more God.

The first created sphere did indeed ascend. The now ascended, (yet still ever self-transcending), individualizations of God were given the task of designing and initiating a second sphere of creation. These ascended beings created two types of individualizations of themselves in order to accomplish the cycle of creation in the second sphere.

[At this point I should say that as successive spheres are created there is a necessary increase in energy density...... in all honesty I don't know why this is the case as it has to do with aspects of the Logos which are beyond me at this time. Suffice it to say that the process becomes more complex with each succeeding sphere].

Back to the two types of individualizations created by the beings who ascended from the first sphere...
One type we can designate "co-creators", who were just like the original individualizations the Creator sent into the first sphere; the second type we can designate "angels". The co-creators would embody into the creation itself and raise the vibration of the sphere from within, working from "below->up", starting in the dense energies and lowest frequencies, whilst the angels would assist the co-creators from the higher realms, working from the top->down.
This scheme was completely successful and the second sphere ascended.
A similar scheme was proposed for the third sphere, although this time the energies into which the co-creators would embody were very dense in comparison to the second sphere and there was the possibility that the limitations of finite existence and the relativistic nature of manifestation in these lower and denser energies would mean that co-creators could become confused and even lose their conscious connection with their common source.
This caused a certain band of angels to propose that the co-creators should not be granted freedom of will until they had attained a given level of consciousness. There was a division of opinion about this and the matter was put to the Creator to decide. The Creator sanctioned the granting of freewill to the co-creators and this enraged the angelic party that advised against it. They refused to participate in the creative process of the third sphere and simply stood back, expecting chaos and the opportunity to effectively say, "We told you so!"
When it became clear that the third sphere was entering an ascension spiral and that the dire warnings of the angelic party that opposed unconditional freedom of will for co-creators were unfounded they took action to try to stop the ascension spiral. This was an all-out rebellion which aimed quite literally at universal destruction. As a result of their rebellion their collective consciousness entered a downward spiral and they were not able to ascend with the third sphere.
Where then did they go? Into the new fourth sphere, (which includes our present universe). These angelic beings actively seek the total destruction of everything divinely created, so low has their consciousness dropped.

As I say, that's severely summarized but it provides a frame of reference.

"which means that God becomes more God" :think:

Other than that, I think I understand your point and it is rather interesting. It seems very much like an interpretation of the creation story of the Bible and the story of Satan, is that true? If not, I would have to wonder how such information could be attained?

When we consider the sending of divine individualizations into the material universe, (The I AM Presence creates a soul vehicle in embodiment), it is analogous to a new born child emerging from the womb of the Divine Mother. A new-born's consciousness is extremely limited compared to a full grown adult. At this point I would definitely commend freelight's comments from his earlier post as an excellent commentary on why the process is as it is. Hopefully I have placed it in larger context.

There are, in this sphere of creation, forces acting which are hostile to God and the creation. These forces have no ultimate reality but they certainly do have a temporary manifestation and subtle perversion of wisdom.

I'm not trying to transfer blame to these fallen beings because each of us is responsible for the decisions we make. However all of us are in the situation we are in now because we took on an initiation before we were ready for it. That initiation was the experience of duality consciousness - the "knowledge of good and evil". Within the consciousness of duality the serpentine lies appear plausible. When we began to descend in consciousness and made mistakes, (the karmic laws of reaping-and-sowing ensured that we realized they actually were mistakes), we were accused by the serpentine forces of being unworthy, which was why God was punishing us, and that is essentially why each of us became fearful and decided not to make any more mistakes by simply not making any more decisions. This gave rise to the ego - a counterfeit personality that would adapt to the duality consciousness so that we could get by without feeling responsible for the everyday type decisions that we perceived as forced upon us by external circumstances.

Okay, that's all well and good. Is it exactly like Genesis then, in that the knowledge of good and evil was obtained by lack of trust in God? And we can continue to descend that ladder even after they are known?

No, it is the Imago Dei inscribed upon the soul-vehicle that can indeed be erased. The Imago Dei is retained forever by the I AM Presence. Your true self is your I AM Presence.

Yet it seems rather arbitrary that the sense of identity should lie in the I AM Presence. There is a part of us that survives annihilation, but why does that include the identity?

God never denies God... it is the ego that denies God.

And the ego came about by the serpent and our lack of trust in God, thus separating us from God? (indeed, here I would say that if we are so capable of acting contrary to God's will via the ego, we could not be called God in a substantial way, yet I think we are in understanding on this point)

John Mortimer

March 7th, 2010, 01:46 PM

Yet it seems rather arbitrary that the sense of identity should lie in the I AM Presence. There is a part of us that survives annihilation, but why does that include the identity?

The identity of the I AM Presence is "true" and "real" because it is an individualization of God Being.

There are ego-identities... but these are not ultimately real because they are born from the sense of separation from God, which is the serpentine lie. God alone hath immortality and thus the ego-identities eventually die one way or another - that's what I mean by "not ultimately real".

The ego-self sees death as something imposed upon it by an angry God, whereas the death of the ego can be achieved by consciously letting it die through the self-transcendence of raising consciousness to the point where we regain contact with our true identity in Christ. This is why being born again is both a new spiritual birth in the context of the embodied experience AND a returning home - like the prodigal son - in the context of regaining a measure of our true identity. This is a process... as Paul said, "I die daily".

Spiritual regeneration brings with it the joyful awareness of freedom from the condemnation of sin; the reason for this is the reconnection with the I AM Presence, which is as pure as the moment it first came forth in the creative Mind of God.

zippy2006

March 7th, 2010, 02:10 PM

The identity of the I AM Presence is "true" and "real" because it is an individualization of God Being.

There are ego-identities... but these are not ultimately real because they are born from the sense of separation from God, which is the serpentine lie. God alone hath immortality and thus the ego-identities eventually die one way or another - that's what I mean by "not ultimately real".

The ego-self sees death as something imposed upon it by an angry God, whereas the death of the ego can be achieved by consciously letting it die through the self-transcendence of raising consciousness to the point where we regain contact with our true identity in Christ. This is why being born again is both a new spiritual birth in the context of the embodied experience AND a returning home - like the prodigal son - in the context of regaining a measure of our true identity. This is a process... as Paul said, "I die daily".

Spiritual regeneration brings with it the joyful awareness of freedom from the condemnation of sin; the reason for this is the reconnection with the I AM Presence, which is as pure as the moment it first came forth in the creative Mind of God.

Okay, this has always interested me: is it possible to describe that eternal identity in a positive way? Do you suspect it would be similar to a deep state of meditation or an especially strong feeling of agape where the ego is at a minimum? Is there any way to say what it actually is?

John Mortimer

March 7th, 2010, 02:31 PM

Okay, this has always interested me: is it possible to describe that eternal identity in a positive way? Do you suspect it would be similar to a deep state of meditation or an especially strong feeling of agape where the ego is at a minimum? Is there any way to say what it actually is?

Well, if we go back to the conceptualization of God's attributes as Presences within the Allness we can think of these attributes combined in various different ways when an I AM Presence comes into being. An analogy would be a stained glass window made up from various colours and combined by the craftsman in any one of an infinite number of ways. The pure awareness of God is like the light that shines through the window and brings the whole creation to life.

The original design, awesome though it is to contemplate, is merely a starting point. The I AM Presence creates a soul-vehicle to embody within the material creation and gather experience of using the Logos, the Christ Mind, to create and to help raise up all life. (As Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me").
Now Jesus also spoke about, "...your treasure in heaven", and this is what is known as the "causal body" of the I AM Presence. This consists of the experiences gained in embodiment which were the results of using the Logos and multiplying the talents given to the soul from above. These achievements, the treasure in heaven, become part of the causal body and can never be lost. Because God is Life, the I AM Presence is not static but goes from glory to glory - from a vessel unto honour filled to the brim to a larger vessel unto honour filled to the brim.

Sonrise

March 7th, 2010, 03:56 PM

well, my head is certainly spinning about now...

freelight

March 7th, 2010, 09:46 PM

Well, if we go back to the conceptualization of God's attributes as Presences within the Allness we can think of these attributes combined in various different ways when an I AM Presence comes into being. An analogy would be a stained glass window made up from various colours and combined by the craftsman in any one of an infinite number of ways. The pure awareness of God is like the light that shines through the window and brings the whole creation to life.

The original design, awesome though it is to contemplate, is merely a starting point. The I AM Presence creates a soul-vehicle to embody within the material creation and gather experience of using the Logos, the Christ Mind, to create and to help raise up all life. (As Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me").
Now Jesus also spoke about, "...your treasure in heaven", and this is what is known as the "causal body" of the I AM Presence. This consists of the experiences gained in embodiment which were the results of using the Logos and multiplying the talents given to the soul from above. These achievements, the treasure in heaven, become part of the causal body and can never be lost. Because God is Life, the I AM Presence is not static but goes from glory to glory - from a vessel unto honour filled to the brim to a larger vessel unto honour filled to the brim.

The treasures of heaven accrue within the causal body surrounding the I Am Presence, the accruments of grace. See chart (http://www.summitlighthouse.org/Sacred-Art/Chart-of-Your-Divine-Self.html). As we've shared....a 'vehicle' serves a purpose, in the ongoing translation of information, experience, wisdom, knowledge...as a 'soul-instrument' or 'wave-carrier'. :surf:

For dialogue on the 'I Am' itself (in its various conceptions) go Here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35464). (all things 'I Am')

Back to rebirth -

There are different viewpoints on the process of rebirth. - the principle is universal, yet some points on the 'process' may differ particularly. Each student will find that which resonates most with them in their studies.

To recap -

Reincarnation: A Simple Explanation (http://www.stephen-knapp.com/reincarnation_a_simple_explanation.htm) (General Hindu perspective).

Life is movement, trans-formation, fluxion, consciousness translating, expanding, com-prehending itself, unfolding its innate potential and will within Infinity. - such is the motive-will behind all creation, communion and ecstasy.

Om shammah shiva!

pj