Should the US government support Israel?

[Knight]

If not, why not?

If so, in what way(s) should the US support Israel?

[bibliophile1954]

Ok, I'm pretty sure that this is scriptural, but I don't know the exact reference. Doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible that God will be kind to those that support His people, (which I take to mean Israel), & He will curse those who aren't? I'm just wondering-anyone want to help me out here?

in His love,
bib

[ebenz47037]

You're right, Bib. I just don't know where it is. But, I think we should support Israel regardless of that. They are a small country surrounded by people that hate them. I don't know how far this country should go to support them. Personally, I think that if the Arab countries decide to fight Israel, that we ought to back them with our military.

[bibliophile1954]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
You're right, Bib. I just don't know where it is. But, I think we should support Israel regardless of that. They are a small country surrounded by people that hate them. I don't know how far this country should go to support them. Personally, I think that if the Arab countries decide to fight Israel, that we ought to back them with our military.

We do have to give a whole bunch of credit to Israel! I remember the 6-Day war, when that happened. Here was this little country, standing against virtually the entire Arab world, AND THEY STOOD THEIR GROUND! If this wasn't an intervention, by God, I don't know what is! I feel that it is very obvious that God is INDEED watching over Israel!

in His love,
bib

[Patroclus]

I think that we should support Israel as much as any other country. However, we should not support Israel in everything that she does. Lend support to her to defend from invaders, yes. Oppressing Palestinians, killing innocent people (regardles of Palestine's hatred), no.

Another field should be in the poll: "to an extent"

[bibliophile1954]

Originally posted by Patroclus
I think that we should support Israel as much as any other country. However, we should not support Israel in everything that she does. Lend support to her to defend from invaders, yes. Oppressing Palestinians, killing innocent people (regardles of Palestine's hatred), no.

Another field should be in the poll: "to an extent"

Actually, I DID start a thread on the troubles in Israel-CURRENT EVENTS FORUM-"PEACE IN ISRAEL? YEAH RIGHT!"
in His love,
bib

[Knight]

Originally posted by Patroclus Another field should be in the poll: "to an extent" Well... any answer of "yes" would also be associated with some "extent". Therefore you can debate the "extent" here! :)

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Patroclus
I think that we should support Israel as much as any other country. However, we should not support Israel in everything that she does. Lend support to her to defend from invaders, yes. Oppressing Palestinians, killing innocent people (regardles of Palestine's hatred), no.

Another field should be in the poll: "to an extent"

This is one reason I don't get into conversations about Israel a lot. No matter, who I'm talking to, they start mentioning the poor Palestinians and how Israel's oppressed them. How long have the Palestinians been sending suicide bombers into crowded areas in Israel? They weren't even interested in having their own country until Israel was founded (present era).

What are the Israelis supposed to do? Are they supposed to just sit there when Palestinians are coming into the malls, busses, and restaurants to kill the children of Israel? I think the Israelis took it as long as they could. People always talk about the innocent Palestinians that are killed by the "evil" Israelis. But, what about the Israeli children that are killed when some idiot who thinks he's going to get to Paradise and have however many virgins it is goes onto a bus and blows himself and the passengers to kingdom come? Isn't that considered murdering innocents? How about when a Palestinian straps a bomb to his body and walks into a nightclub and blows up himself and others? Of course, most people who talk to me about it think that the Palestinians have been forced into the bombing by the oppressing Israelis. Well, the United States has sent money to the Palestinians as well as to Israel. Why are the Palestinians not using that money to get out of the squalor they live in? It's because their leaders want the world to see them living as they do so they will have sympathy!

Do the Palestinians have my sympathy? To an extent. But, they voted to keep Arafat in office even though he's done nothing to bring a real peace to the region.

The people in this country need to get their heads out of the sand and look at the whole thing, not just the story we're getting spoon-fed from the media. I like how Michael Savage (radio talk show host) said it, "You need to wake up and quit being part of the ostrich brigade!"

I, for one, refuse to be part of the ostrich brigade!

[Flipper]

Nori:

I like how Michael Savage (radio talk show host) said it, "You need to wake up and quit being part of the ostrich brigade!"

I rather like Michael Savage too. He's completely replaced Bob E in my affections for "most outspoken right wing radio host".

If you like Savage, you might also wish to check out Robbie Noel on the American Freedom Network. I think you can get his stuff via free streaming audio, as I don't think you're in the AFN reception area.

You do need to understand that the Israelis do sometimes go out of their way to provoke the Palestinians, however. Neither side comes out covered in glory on the balance sheet. The Israelis can afford to be more surgical about their reprisals because they have the technology and the training, but don't go mistaking that for moral superiority.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Flipper
Nori:



I rather like Michael Savage too. He's completely replaced Bob E in my affections for "most outspoken right wing radio host".

If you like Savage, you might also wish to check out Robbie Noel on the American Freedom Network. I think you can get his stuff via free streaming audio, as I don't think you're in the AFN reception area.

Thanks for the heads up! :D I've been listening to Savage for about a year, now. And, I love him! He says what I've been saying for years.

You do need to understand that the Israelis do sometimes go out of their way to provoke the Palestinians, however. Neither side comes out covered in glory on the balance sheet. The Israelis can afford to be more surgical about their reprisals because they have the technology and the training, but don't go mistaking that for moral superiority.

I don't necessarily consider it moral superiority. But, how many times are they supposed to sit there and watch as the suicide bombers come in before they wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth?

[GrayPilgrim]

Yes, aside from theological grounds, if one of the goals of the USA is to support democracy as Israel is the only democratic nation in the Middle East then of course we should. All the other nations there are dictatorships of one ilk or another.

On the issue of the Palestinians. From what I understand, if one spends time in Israel, they will gennerally come home more impressed with them than with the manners of the Israelis. However, whenever I am watching the news about violence there I just turn the channel. I once saw an interview with a journalist who explained how all the stuff you see is scripted. It runs like this:

Early morning (during the cool of the day) the Israelis and Palestinians clash. However, the journalists are not present as they are concerned about their safety
Late morning (when it heats up) the two sides retreat indoors to escape the heat, and the journalists show up, and start interviewing.
Late afternoon (cooling of the day) journalists pay Palestinians to stage a rock throwing for their cameras.


This all prevent me from really "feeling sorry" for them. While in the pictures we see they always are throwing rocks so that we thing that they are a "poor little David" against "a nasty Goliath" when the cameras are not around they generally are firing machine guns at the Israelis, but that would distort their propaganda and loose their under dog sympathy, so we never get to see that part.

GP

[\o/\o/]

link deleted. - by admin.

[Knight]

\o/\o/ I will warn you as I have warned others, if you have an argument to make... make it.

We encourge point vs. counter point debate at TOL. Not a battle of the weblinks.

Fair enough?

[\o/\o/]

OK, since you carry the big stick.

I suggest you not allow anyone to post links, rather than censoring views which you don't like so much.

Anyone interested to see what was not allowed can go to David Duke's website and see his article about the terrorism of Israel. (This is not an endorsement of the entire website or of David Duke.)

[RightIdea]

But why would anyone give Duke's website any credence, to begin with? The man has no credibility. He's a laughing stock.

[Patroclus]

Nori, I know what you are saying. But I never condoned what the Palestineans are doing either. I am just saying that there is a fair share of wrong happening on both sides of the fence there, and that support of that is just as wrong. Since when is vengeance right?

Secondly, the nation of Israel today is not the Israel of the Bible except in relative land-space occupation. I think we, as Christians, are obliged to support the Jews, but not necessarily the Israelies. Plenty of Romans lived in Palestine during their empire, but that did not make them Jews.

[Pilgrimagain]

Isareli does not equal Israelite.

[John Gault]

It really is as simple as this:

If the Arabs put down their arms there would be no more violence.

If the Jews put down their arms there would be no more Israel.

The United States should continue to support Israel for these reasons.

[Flipper]

But, how many times are they supposed to sit there and watch as the suicide bombers come in before they wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth?

If you consider your territory to be occupied by your enemies, many of whom are well-documented as treating you as second class citizens in your own home, wouldn't you consider resistance to be the appropriate and patriotic thing to do? Wouldn't you even consider it an imperative?

Yes, I accept that quite a lot of this mistreatment is driven by Israeli security concerns. But that doesn't cut much ice if you are at the recieving end of it.

You also need to consider that quite a lot of the Israeli behaviour is deliberately quite provocative. The bulldozing of houses and building of new settlements, for example.

Yes, suicide bombings are horrific, but sadly they can also been seen as one of the few effective tools of retribution and punishment available to the Palestinians who don't have a well-trained army, high-tech weapons, or an airforce.

Israeli operations are somewhat handicapped because they have to preserve a figleaf of concern about Palestinian civilian casualties or they will be sacrificed on the stage of world opinion. Palestinian operations, on the other hand, are handicapped by the fact that they can realistically only hurt Israel by attacking the weak and vulnerable. The bus travellers, the settlers, children, and shoppers.

On the BBC World News yesterday, I watched a Meerkava tank firing its machine gun at a group of about six kids and early teens who were throwing stones at it. That's a disproportionate use of force in my book.

The civilian body count is severely skewed in favor of the Israelis, suicide bombs or no suicide bombs.

This quote is from Amnesty International, who never play favorites:

No judicial investigation is known to have been carried out into any of the killings of children by Israeli soldiers, even in cases where Israeli government officials have stated publicly that investigations would be carried out. The Palestinian Authority, for its part, has failed to take the necessary measures to prevent attacks on Israeli civilians by Palestinian armed groups and to bring to justice those responsible for unlawful killings. All the parties involved in the conflict are disregarding the right to life of the most vulnerable members of the Israeli and Palestinian civilian population.

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE151472002?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\ISRAEL/OCCUPIED+TERRITORIES

[Flipper]

\o/\o/ wrote:

Anyone interested to see what was not allowed can go to David Duke's website and see his article about the terrorism of Israel.

Why try bouncing people there then?

Can't you find any other organisation who is:

a) remotely credible in the eyes of the majority
b) experts in the area and its politics rather than peanut gallery nutjobs
c) not widely known to be utterly biased Jew haters?

Are your critical judgement skills that retarded?

[Reba]

Should USA support Israel? Israel 2 snippets from Encarta



ISRAEL
On May 14, 1948, when the British mandate over Palestine expired, Jewish authorities declared the establishment of the State of Israel. The declaration recalled the religious and spiritual connections of the Jewish people to the land of Israel, without mention of specific boundaries; guaranteed “freedom of religion and conscience, of language, education, and culture”; provided a framework for a democratic Jewish state founded on liberty, justice, and peace; and called for peaceful relations with Arab neighbors. The state declared itself open for Jewish immigration. A provisional government was established, with Jewish Agency chairman David Ben-Gurion as prime minister and former Jewish Agency president Chaim Weizmann as president. The United States and the USSR, along with many other states, quickly recognized the new government.


KUWAIT
In 1961 Britain granted independence to Kuwait. Iraq, which had long claimed Kuwait was part of southern Iraq, argued that Kuwait had been separated from it illegitimately. After being pressured by Arab countries and Britain, Iraq eventually backed down from its claim. The emir of Kuwait nonetheless felt it necessary to promote national unity. He allowed elections for a constituent assembly, which took place in late 1961, and the assembly wrote a constitution the following year that guaranteed the Sabah’s dominance but allowed the people a role in government. On two occasions, in 1976 and 1986, the emir’s successors suspended parts of the constitution, but on both occasions they later consented to renew constitutional life.



Politically speaking I believe we have the same responsibility to support Israel as we do Kuwait. ( Using Kuwait because of, its size, the gulf war, the oil , location, all those types of things. The 2 nations compare geographically etc ) The USA supported Kuwait with the blood of the GI’s which to me is the ultimate support.


Biblically speaking I understand Israel to be as much an antichrist nation as Kuwait.

1 John 2:22-23

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

2 John 7-11

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

maybe i was not clear this morning YES the USA should support Israel

[RightIdea]

Reba, I hate to say it but you're putting yourself in a fairly awkward position with God on this issue.

Israel is currently in a state of having temporarily fallen from God's favor. This isn't the first time this has happened, although it's the worst case of it. Israel fell temporarily from God's favor a number of times in the OT, each time because she failed to follow God's teachings and accept His truth.

Using the logic you just used, we'd also have to say that Babylon was righteous in its being against Israel during her time of having fallen away from God.

God always cursed any nation that came against Israel, whether it was in Israel's "down" periods or "up" periods, regardless. Every nation that has opposed Israel, even when she was fallen away from God, has been destroyed. Not a single one of them still exists, from Babylon to Hitler's Third Reich.

Even Mark Twain interestingly observed this in his later years, adding the advice that one should never, ever, ever be against the Jews, because doing so is clearly a dangerous thing to do.

America is not a Christian nation, not a nation of God. It is a heathen Gentile nation, and it too will be destroyed if we stand opposed to Israel. But on the other hand, God blesses nations that stand by Israel.

[Reba]

Idea,
I am not a good writer so please dont try and read deeply into my post.


Reba, I hate to say it but you're putting yourself in a fairly awkward position with God on this issue.
i didnt write the scripture GOD did

Israel is currently in a state of having temporarily fallen from God's favor. This isn't the first time this has happened, although it's the worst case of it. Israel fell temporarily from God's favor a number of times in the OT, each time because she failed to follow God's teachings and accept His truth.
did i say anything contary to the above?

Using the logic you just used, we'd also have to say that Babylon was righteous in its being against Israel during her time of having fallen away from God. i did say the USA should support Israel

God always cursed any nation that came against Israel, whether it was in Israel's "down" periods or "up" periods, regardless. Every nation that has opposed Israel, even when she was fallen away from God, has been destroyed. Not a single one of them still exists, from Babylon to Hitler's Third Reich.. i did say the USA should support Israel


Even Mark Twain interestingly observed this in his later years, adding the advice that one should never, ever, ever be against the Jews, because doing so is clearly a dangerous thing to do.

America is not a Christian nation, not a nation of God. It is a heathen Gentile nation, and it too will be destroyed if we stand opposed to Israel. But on the other hand, God blesses nations that stand by Israel. did i say USA was a nation of GOD?


I didn't write 'John' only copied and pasted

[Explosived]

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Ps 122:6

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen. 12:3)

[Reba]

Jerusalem . . . Israel . . . . are they the same?

[Explosived]

Who does Jerusalem belong to according to the words of God?

And who will sit in the seat of David there?

[Reba]

I asked first

[RightIdea]

I apologize, Reba... I must have somehow misunderstood what you were saying. :)

[Explosived]

Originally posted by Explosived
Who does Jerusalem belong to according to the words of God?

And who will sit in the seat of David there?

Anyone?

[Housefly]

Jerusalem is not the same as Isreal. Isreal is a liniage of people. From "Jacob". Jerusalem is a city. (Extremly simplified answer.)

Jerusalem belongs to God. He calls It 'MY CITY'.
The Lamb of God will sit on the throne, or messiah if you wish, a green shoot from the stump of Jesse (David's desendent)

[Housefly]

OH! And my answer to support Isreal is a resounding YES! They hold our Jewish roots, we are grafted into them, they are our older brother. (I'll bet if you have an older brother he's as stubborn as mine! : ) )

[Vitamin J]

If there are any preterists left (at TOL) I would be curious as to get their take on this issue.

[RightIdea]

Originally posted by Housefly
OH! And my answer to support Isreal is a resounding YES! They hold our Jewish roots, we are grafted into them, they are our older brother. (I'll bet if you have an older brother he's as stubborn as mine! : ) )
Grafted into Israel? With all due respect, where do you get that from? Israel was cut off from the root (Christ), and the Gentiles were grafted in where Israel once was. We aren't grafted into Israel. We are grafted into Christ. :)

(But I completely agree with you in supporting Israel. They are God's chosen people, once and always.)

[Reba]

Isa 11:10
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
KJV
Rom 15:12
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
KJV
Rev 5:5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
KJV

[BillyBob]

You do need to understand that the Israelis do sometimes go out of their way to provoke the Palestinians, however.

Yep, those wacky Palestinians absolutely Hate It when an Israeli breathes....

[kmoney]

I don't think it is a yes/no answer.

[drbrumley]

Should the US government support Israel?

No.

[BillyBob]

Should the US government support Israel?

Yes.

[kmoney]

Should the US government support Israel?

Yes....well maybe not.....no.....but then again......I guess it just depends......

Does that answer your question? :noid:

[BillyBob]

That's the exact, precise, difinitive answer we expected from you! :chuckle:

[koban]

Should the US government support Israel?

Yep! :thumb:

If so, in what way(s) should the US support Israel?

Think athletic supporter or brassiere. :chuckle:

[jeremiah]

Yes we should support Israel, because it is a legitamate modern nation, which shares our core values and beliefs.
We should not be supporting the policies of the current administration of Israel, until and unless, we are willing to help form Aztlan within our borders. By supporting the myth of a Palestinian state within Israel, we have accepted the more legitimate claims of a return of Texas and California to Mexico, and the so called "illegal" immigrants.
Texas is more legitimately Mexican-Aztec, than the West bank is Palestinian-Muslim.
Until we are willing to bulldoze the mansions of coastal California, and move the "white" population to the deserts of the Southwest, we should support the nation and the people of Israel with the same respect, we give the current landholders and citizens of the Southwestern United States.

[Yonas bat'Yah]

We do have to give a whole bunch of credit to Israel! I remember the 6-Day war, when that happened. Here was this little country, standing against virtually the entire Arab world, AND THEY STOOD THEIR GROUND! If this wasn't an intervention, by God, I don't know what is! I feel that it is very obvious that God is INDEED watching over Israel!

in His love,
bib

Hi bib. I was truly impressed and touched by what you shared concerning Israel. I too must agree. Israel has been this little country with a Mighty Voice for thousands of years. Those who do not agree with Israel or who do harm to them, will suffer the consequences. God Will deal with them. Only when that time comes, it will be a sad and painful judgment.

In His Love, and by His Love, I will always reach my hand out to the distaff. :rain: Rain down on me Lord!

[Yonas bat'Yah]

This is one reason I don't get into conversations about Israel a lot. No matter, who I'm talking to, they start mentioning the poor Palestinians and how Israel's oppressed them. How long have the Palestinians been sending suicide bombers into crowded areas in Israel? They weren't even interested in having their own country until Israel was founded (present era).

What are the Israelis supposed to do? Are they supposed to just sit there when Palestinians are coming into the malls, busses, and restaurants to kill the children of Israel? I think the Israelis took it as long as they could. People always talk about the innocent Palestinians that are killed by the "evil" Israelis. But, what about the Israeli children that are killed when some idiot who thinks he's going to get to Paradise and have however many virgins it is goes onto a bus and blows himself and the passengers to kingdom come? Isn't that considered murdering innocents? How about when a Palestinian straps a bomb to his body and walks into a nightclub and blows up himself and others? Of course, most people who talk to me about it think that the Palestinians have been forced into the bombing by the oppressing Israelis. Well, the United States has sent money to the Palestinians as well as to Israel. Why are the Palestinians not using that money to get out of the squalor they live in? It's because their leaders want the world to see them living as they do so they will have sympathy!

Do the Palestinians have my sympathy? To an extent. But, they voted to keep Arafat in office even though he's done nothing to bring a real peace to the region.

The people in this country need to get their heads out of the sand and look at the whole thing, not just the story we're getting spoon-fed from the media. I like how Michael Savage (radio talk show host) said it, "You need to wake up and quit being part of the ostrich brigade!"

I, for one, refuse to be part of the ostrich brigade!

Greetings ebenz. It is nice to meet someone that is so compassionate about their views. :cool:

[Lucky]

Bump.

[SaulToPaul]

The US has no biblical reason to support Israel any more so than any other country. If we were living 2,000 years ago, yes. If we were living in the Tribulation or Millenium, yes. In this dispensation where Israel is LoAmmi, no.

[kmoney]

Bump.
We should treat them no differently than any other country. I think I would lower the current level of support.

[Nick M]

If not, why not?

If so, in what way(s) should the US support Israel?

Yes.

It really is as simple as this:

If the Islamic Arabs put down their arms there would be no more violence.

If the Jews put down their arms there would be no more Israel.

The United States should continue to support Israel for these reasons.

The US has no biblical reason to support Israel any more so than any other country. If we were living 2,000 years ago, yes. If we were living in the Tribulation or Millenium, yes. In this dispensation where Israel is LoAmmi, no.

Correct. We are no longer blessed through the seed of Abraham. But we should, and do, for the reasons by John Gault.

[Lucky]

We should treat them no differently than any other country. I think I would lower the current level of support.
Did you see your previous answer in this thread? This one is much more precise! :chuckle:

[kmoney]

Did you see your previous answer in this thread? This one is much more precise! :chuckle:
:chuckle: I should have known I already posted in this thread. :drum:

[Granite]

I agree with kmoney. They are an ally--but not our only ally. The Israeli lobby is immensely powerful and our relationship with Israel has warped our foreign policy for decades.