Calvinism affects everything! Even my favorite music

[novice]

One of my favorites bands is the O.C. Supertones. And one of my favorites song by the Supertones is "Jury Duty".

Read the lyrics to this song and tell me what you think of the message.

"Jury Duty"

by Supertones
from their 2000 album, Loud and Clear

5 am on Tuesday
why am I up so early
drive out to Santa Ana 'cause I've got jury duty
no breakfast short tempered
and I cut my head shaving
ten miles out I hit traffic
some days just aren't worth saving

You know I haven't had the best of days
But I want to stop and thank You anyway

At the courthouse I waited
And waited then I waited
At lunchtime my car stalled out
I couldn't get it started
Had a book by C.S. Lewis
I finished the last page and
Slept on my desk for three hours
Just like my high school days

You know I haven't had the best of days
But I want to stop and thank You anyway

Cuz every single moment whether sleeping or awake
Is You creation
At what You've made is good
I don't always thank for you for the rough days and
the hard times in my life
even though I should

Got home and decided I'd be in a bad mood and
My shy and quiet wife said she didn't like my attitude
Got a call from my mother
Forgot my sister's birthday
I'm a lousy older brother safe to say I've had a bad day

[Vitamin J]

The part that strikes me is.....

Cuz every single moment whether sleeping or awake
Is You creation
At what You've made is good
I don't always thank for you for the rough days and
the hard times in my life
even though I should

One might think that God thinks "bad things" are "good".

[Lion]

Or maybe he is really saying that what God made is good, but what we make of what He made may not be.

[LawFeelsGood]

Can I just get it off my chest? I am so sick of "God has a plan" I don't know what to do! It seems like every mainstream christian I know lives by the same tired old (not to mention wrong) cliches. Everybody is looking for God's elusive will.

Here it is as I see it.

God has plans for the future - He will bring them about.

His plan for us is simple - Live godly lives, honor and love Him (worship Jesus). Love your neighbor

Our free will is operating and changing the future every day. This is not a futile exercise. Life matters. Our choices and decisions and actions actually matter - for eternity!

Whew! I feel a little better now. Thanks for listening.

[rapt]

AMEN, Lawfeelsgood! My sentiments exactly!

I am unable to comprehend what Calvinism has to do with the mundane song, Novice. Are you trying to say that you like the mundane since you are a Calvinist?

[evseeker]

Lawfeelgood,

I nominate your message for post of the day!!!

Every time I go to a funeral and I hear someone say, "His suffering was God's will", I have to resist the urge to punch that person in the nose.

Haven't these people ever heard of the Fall and all that implies?

Or is modern brainwashing so powerful that everyone thinks Genesis was simply the mythology of "primitive" people?

[Poly]

Originally posted by evseeker
Lawfeelgood,

I nominate your message for post of the day!!!



It was mine on 02-06-03 It's a great post.

[LawFeelsGood]

Originally posted by evseeker
Every time I go to a funeral and I hear someone say, "His suffering was God's will", I have to resist the urge to punch that person in the nose.


I feel the same way. Especially if a child is involved. It sickens me for people to insinuate that God has a plan for the child's death (meaning to say that it was God's plan for the child to die).

I've really been encouraged by your responses to my post, but can we change anything? My efforts in the "bible belt" have all been met with negative reactions.

Blessings to you

[Goose]

I could maybe see a bit of Calvanism in there. Like everyting is good cause it's predestined by God. But I dunno. My big problem with my favorite band, "Caedmon's Call" is that they're just about ALL Calvanists, and it comes through in a lot of there songs. :( hehe

[rapt]

We don't get enough Calvinism from John MacArther, RC Sproul, Hank Hanegraaff, and most other radio grace changers, that we need it spewed in music too?


Uggh, gimme a break!!

[novice]

Originally posted by rapt
We don't get enough Calvinism from John MacArther, RC Sproul, Hank Hanegraaff, and most other radio grace changers, that we need it spewed in music too?


Uggh, gimme a break!! rapt, aren't you one of those wacky preterists?

My guess is you are far more calvinistic than you think.

[PeekoDeguyO]

Speaking as a Calvinist, I find that few who speak out against it really understand it. They think they're total experts on the subject, but usually labor under major misconceptions on at least one -- if not more-- of the points, unfortunately. And they tend to be quite loud about denouncing that which they think they understand but don't, which is also too bad because it doesn't reflect well on them and only contributes to popular confusion. Granted, some do understand it well and still object strongly, but I think they're in the minority. As for Hanegraaff being a Calvinist, I don't think so. He is far too much of a fence-sitter from what I've heard him say. He's basically Arminian.

[knee-v]

PeekoDeguyO,

I totally agree. However, the group that I find most enigmatic are the 4-pointer's. It's usually the "L" that gets them. But the same holds true (not understanding the other points). When you break it down, it's usually one point that causes the misunderstanding, taking the rest down with it, that being total depravity. If man is not radically depraved, then he can indeed incline himself toward God on his own. That makes unconditional election null and void. Then of course since God didn't have a special people chosen, then Christ's death is for anyone. And if it's not God choosing, then it's man who comes to God on his own accord. And if man comes on his own accord, then he can leave on his own accord.

So it's the first point that makes or breaks calvinism, and it's the first point that the non-calvinist stumbles on. It was the first point that I had the most trouble with. But, kicking and screaming on the way, here I am now as a fully convinced calvinist. Praise God for His grace.

[Blake Reas]

Calvinism is great!:thumb:

In his soveriegn grace,

Blake

[PeekoDeguyO]

Hey knee and Blake. It’s good to see some younger Reformed dudes mixin’ it up. Please, just call me Peek or whatever suits your fancy. knee, that was well said. For some reason, a lot of non-Calvinists seem to think they can agree with depravity but overcome the problem of having to accept the other four points by positing ideas like common or prevenient grace which God shows to all, that supposedly negate the effects of depravity just enough so that anyone may choose Christ. Of course, such a concept is useless for trying to explain why one person then makes a good and right choice and ten others do not. If their evil natures have been subdued to the degree that they now may choose rightly, then why wouldn’t they? To me, this represents a desire to have one’s cake and eat it too. They want to affirm depravity and have something that approaches irresistible grace, but not quite. For whatever reason, they don’t seem to be able to see that their scheme still begs the question of why some are saved and others not. Or that it makes mens’ decisions, instead of God’s will, the ultimate factor in salvation. But it’s true, if not for the grace of God I’d still be fighting it tooth and nail as well.

[evseeker]

It may well be that I do not "understand" Calvinism.

However, I also get this same objection when I discuss "evolution".

Nevertheless the fact is that the opinions which claim that God is "outside time", and therefore "sees" events before they occur to us poor mortals, seems to me to be very strained and lacking sufficient supporting evidence.

I do believe in predestination if by that it means that God can "declare the end from the beginning", for He certainly has the power to make anything happen that he desires.

However, there seems to be a lot of evidence that God has chosen not to make every little thing happen in a certain specific manner. To me this is not in character with God and is as repulsive to me as the parents who manipulate their children's lives in minute detail instead of letting them grow up and become their own persons.

[LawFeelsGood]

Originally posted by PeekoDeguyO
Granted, some do understand it well and still object strongly, but I think they're in the minority.

Peek,
How gracious of you to concede that there might be some intelligent individuals that could disagree with your theology. Of course we all know that the typical Calvanist has a much greater understanding of the Bible than most. After all, it was predestined that way!:angel: (NOT)

[PeekoDeguyO]

evseeker …the fact is that the opinions which claim that God is "outside time", and therefore "sees" events before they occur to us poor mortals, seems to me to be very strained and lacking sufficient supporting evidence.

Strained how; biblically or rationally? I see it just the opposite. First off, not many claim to even be able to tell us what time “is” exactly. To me, it seems that is a concept used to document changes in the status of tangible, finite things. Finite things are always changing. They develop, grow, age and die. Time is just a convenient way for us to keep track of all that, with arbitrary units like seconds, minutes, hours. If you take a given area of “space” (another conundrum) that is totally devoid of any material object or finite personality, isn’t the “time” concept meaningless?

All Christians agree that God is infinite and immaterial. What’s more, his being is eternal. I grant that He may certainly work in or through what we perceive as the time-space continuum, but I don’t see how we can possibly assert that He is “in” time and subject to its limitations in the same fashion we are. That is a philosophical line of reasoning, but I don’t think that Scripture does anything but affirm that same line.

Whether God does or could know all future events before they occur without first deceeing them and exercising control over them is another question entirely. The Calvinist, or Reformed position is that He knows them precisely because He has infallibly decreed that they shall (and should) come to pass.

I do believe in predestination if by that it means that God can "declare the end from the beginning", for He certainly has the power to make anything happen that he desires.

However, there seems to be a lot of evidence that God has chosen not to make every little thing happen in a certain specific manner. To me this is not in character with God and is as repulsive to me as the parents who manipulate their children's lives in minute detail instead of letting them grow up and become their own persons.

This statement raises many questions in my mind. First, this seems to contradict the explicit teaching of Scripture in many places. Also, why do you assume that God is even able to not exercise complete sovereignty over even the smallest details? If He is by nature sovereign, then He cannot do this. Comparing God to an over-controlling human parent doesn’t seem particularly helpful. He has a plan and is bringing it to pass in history. We have real freedom, even though we are controlled. We do what we want, and God controls us. I don’t think we can reconcile those truths in our little minds, but I personally am convinced it’s true and that it is the testimony of God’s word.

[PeekoDeguyO]

LawFeelsGood Peek,
How gracious of you to concede that there might be some intelligent individuals that could disagree with your theology.
Ha, sure. No problem, Law! =)

Of course we all know that the typical Calvanist has a much greater understanding of the Bible than most. After all, it was predestined that way! (NOT)

I know that was meant sarcastically, and you probably expect me to demur, but I’m not going to. Though I myself do not claim to be a great Bible scholar, I think it’s probably true that the average Calvinist is more Bible literate than the average adherent of any opposing theology.

[evseeker]

PeekoDeguyO,

If you take a given area of “space” (another conundrum) that is totally devoid of any material object or finite personality, isn’t the “time” concept meaningless?

Not if you believe the latest thinking in physics, which is that there is no such thing as "empty" space. According to this there is tremendous energy in supposedly "empty" space.

All Christians agree that God is infinite and immaterial.

Not to be purposely difficult, but I am a Christian and I don’t believe either of these things, mostly because they are Greek, not scriptural concepts. “Infinite” is a mathematical concept that cannot be applied to beings, spritual or not. God is a spirit, but that is an inclusive not an exclusive term. In other words it encompasses both immaterial and material things. Also, there are a handful of verses that hint that there is passage of time in heaven.

... I don’t see how we can possibly assert that He is “in” time and subject to its limitations in the same fashion we are.

Nor do I, but on the other hand I don’t see how we can possibly assert that He is out of time either. Admission of ignorance is no sin.

That is a philosophical line of reasoning, but I don’t think that Scripture does anything but affirm that same line.

And I on the other hand don’t think scripture “affirms” any such thing.

The Calvinist, or Reformed position is that He knows them precisely because He has infallibly decreed that they shall (and should) come to pass.

If that is truly the Calvinist position then I have no problem with it. But I do have a problem with people who say that God can “see” a future that has not happened yet because He is “outside of time”.

However I also have a problem with people saying that God “has a plan” for your life if they mean by that anything more than that He wants us to love, worship and follow Him. I would allow for a few important exceptions of course.

why do you assume that God is even able to not exercise complete sovereignty over even the smallest details?

Because I don’t assume that. God could conceivably do that or anything else He wanted. I simply think that His character is such that He would not want to do that and so He doesn’t. After all, we would consider any parent who tried to exercise complete control over his children a tyrant, not a loving father or mother.

We have real freedom, even though we are controlled. We do what we want, and God controls us. I don’t think we can reconcile those truths in our little minds,

Because it is illogical? :D

but I personally am convinced it’s true and that it is the testimony of God’s word.

Believing the illogical is something done by people involved in a cult. One can believe in God’s word because it is true, and truth is never illogical.

[Poly]

As a former Calvinist (all my life until about 5 years ago) I can tell you that many think that the Calvinist is very arrogant. This is true but they misunderstand where the arrogance comes from. Most think it comes from the Calvinist thinking he is special because he was predestined to be saved. I never came across this type of attitude. The arrogance comes from the Calvinist thinking highly of himself because this supposed doctrine was revealed to him.

[knee-v]

Evseeker,

I won't assume that you believe in the Trinity, or the duel nature of Christ or anything else. But let's say you do.

Let's see, one God, three persons, all fully God? You've got to be kidding me! That makes no sense whatsoever! And then you're going to tell me that this Jesus guy was both fully God (or at least fully 1/3 God) AND fully man? Both at the same time? What drunk fool thought of that?.

Now I have no intention of being a jerk and if it appears that way I apologize. But my point is that we can't judge a doctrine based on how much sense it makes, especially when it comes to God and his nature, attributes, etc. (And just for the record I do in fact hold to the orthodox understanding of the Trinity and Christ's nature, in case there was any confusion there.)

There's a neat little book called Tulip by an author whose name I cannot remember. It's small but gets the point across. I would recommend it to someone to get a better understanding of Calvinism than would be gotten at a forum. James Montgomery Boice (and Ryken too I think) has a book called The Doctrines of Grace. :up: :up: Very informative.

[rapt]

It’s good to see some younger Reformed dudes mixin’ it up.

(Above posted in pukey pink for emphasis)

I agree that all the reformed are able to do is mix up the scriptures and thier correct interpretation.

Consider the fruit of the author given credit for the doctrine of Calvinism: he thought he did God a service by having Michael Servetus arrested and killed. He WANTED him DEAD, and defended that attitude after Servetus was BURNT AT THE STAKE WITH GREEN WOOD. What an abomination. Such is the FRUIT of Calvinism.

So keep mixing it up?

No, Repent.

[rapt]

evseeker, don't be discouraged by the lame accusation that "you don't UNDERSTAND Calvinism". It's been used for centuries in lame attempt to silence those who don't realize that they actually understand it better than Calvinists themselves! They DO, you know. Those of us who know that Calvinism is ANOTHER GOSPEL do, anyway. But they will attempt to MIX YOU UP, just as they do the bible....to their own destruction, and to yours if you choose to COMPROMISE THE TRUTH with them.

[calvinistkid]

Originally posted by rapt

Consider the fruit of the author given credit for the doctrine of Calvinism: he thought he did God a service by having Michael Servetus arrested and killed. He WANTED him DEAD, and defended that attitude after Servetus was BURNT AT THE STAKE WITH GREEN WOOD. What an abomination. Such is the FRUIT of Calvinism.

So keep mixing it up?

No, Repent.

Someone needs to brush up on their church history. Michael Servetus was executed for breaking what was at the time city law in geneva- it was a city with an established church, and he tried to subvert that. As far as Calvin supporting the method of death, that is blatantly false. Calvin actualy opposed the death by burning, and did everything he could to convince the city council to execute him by hanging or beheading (which was about as humane as executions got at the time). So before you go accusing Calvin of ruthless barbarity, you might want to check your sources.

[LawFeelsGood]

Originally posted by calvinistkid


Someone needs to brush up on their church history.

Friends NEVER debate a Calvanists' knowledge of church history. I would add never debate a Calvanist on the knowledge his own doctrine. Calvanist have inflated themselves with church history and every tiny bit of doctrinal information possible.

Sadly, on their quest to gain knowledge, they forgot the most important source...The Word of God.

Let this destructive doctrine serve as a reminder to all those that prefer cliches, commentaries and footnotes to the Bible. There is no substitute for searching the scriptures for yourself.

God wants you to dig into His Word. He loves to hide treasures for us to explore. Don't be lazy and let someone else spoon feed you your beliefs!
:doh:

[okinrus]

What is Time?
We know the past and the present but not the future.
Yes there are those who used to claim in 1600s that
the universe and everything in it worked like a clock. But
modern science has proved that not even nature
works that way.

So Time is the lack of knowledge filling up with knowledge.
God created time to give us freewill.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by LawFeelsGood
Can I just get it off my chest? I am so sick of "God has a plan" I don't know what to do! It seems like every mainstream christian I know lives by the same tired old (not to mention wrong) cliches. Everybody is looking for God's elusive will. Here it is as I see it. God has plans for the future - He will bring them about. His plan for us is simple - Live godly lives, honor and love Him (worship Jesus). Love your neighbor. Our free will is operating and changing the future every day. This is not a futile exercise. Life matters. Our choices and decisions and actions actually matter - for eternity! Whew! I feel a little better now. Thanks for listening.


I agreed with everything you said except "Our free will is operating and changing the future everyday". I'm confused. :confused: Earlier you said "God has plans for the future - He will bring them about". So who's in charge of the future? God, or us? If we can change the future with our free will, then God can't make plans; we can change them. But if God can make plans, we have no control over the future. Bottom line, the actions and decisions we make are exactly what God had in mind for us in the first place. ;)

Originally posted by evseeker
Every time I go to a funeral and I hear someone say, "His suffering was God's will", I have to resist the urge to punch that person in the nose.

But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. - Acts 3:18

Would you like to punch God in the nose too?

Originally posted by LawFeelsGood
It sickens me for people to insinuate that God has a plan for the child's death (meaning to say that it was God's plan for the child to die).

For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. - Exodus 12:12

Hmmmm, maybe you skipped this part of the bible in sunday school.....

[Poly]

Originally posted by Z Man




But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. - Acts 3:18

Would you like to punch God in the nose too?



For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. - Exodus 12:12

Hmmmm, maybe you skipped this part of the bible in sunday school.....
These are huge and important events. There are certain instances where God plans for events to take place in certain ways. Is this evidence that He has planned out every tiny event in every single person's life to the smallest detail as in whether or not I decide to step on that crack in the sidewalk the next time I take a walk?

[LawFeelsGood]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Z Man I'm confused.





That is evident.

Thanks Polycarp... That's just what I wanted to say!

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

These are huge and important events. There are certain instances where God plans for events to take place in certain ways. Is this evidence that He has planned out every tiny event in every single person's life to the smallest detail as in whether or not I decide to step on that crack in the sidewalk the next time I take a walk?

I believe in a limited free will. I don't think God cares about what flavor ice cream you eat, or if you step on a crack or not, etc, etc. But I do believe that everything happens for a reason. Whether a child dies, a child is born, a murder takes place, a person is saved, whatever, all things happen according to God's plan. We may not see the big picture, nor understand a lot of things that happen, but that's not our place to question God's authority either. It's His garden, and He can uproot or plant whatever He wills. Whatever happens, we must trust that God knows all, and wills everything for the better...

Originally posted by LawFeelsGood

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Z Man I'm confused.

That is evident.

Thanks Polycarp... That's just what I wanted to say!

Nice comeback. :rolleyes: What's the matter? Scripture caught your tounge?