ARCHIVE: My niece is gay and I love her for it. So does God.

[wickwoman]

My niece was gay the day she was born. I don’t know what caused it - maybe she’s got too much or too little of this hormone or that one. All I know is that every picture I look at of her from the day she started to look like one sex or the other, she always looked a little less than female. I can’t put my finger on it now, I just know she was different. That doesn’t make her a sinner.

When she was 4 years old she used to dress up in her dad’s work clothes and work boots. For Halloween she was always an army man or a Star Trek captain. All of her friends were little boys. She choose them because she had the most in common with boys. When boys decided they didn’t like girls, she had no friends. She was devastated. Her best friend Patrick told her one day girls were “icky.” It changed her attitude about life forever.

Sometimes I wonder if it was something I did or said or something her mom or dad did or didn’t do. When it comes right down to it, it doesn’t matter. Whether it was environment or genetics, nevertheless, she had no control over what happened to her and in her. It just was. Either way, no loving God would send her to Hell for it. Of this I am sure.

So tell me that God thinks she’s an “abomination.” But this time, use your head. Don’t quote from your famous book. Give me a logical reason from your very own head as to why God is going to send her to Hell for being gay. I challenge you to give me one good LOGICAL reason. She is not harming anyone, she is not even harming herself. What harmed her the most was when she tried to fit in and be straight.

She’s much happier now that she is openly gay. She and her girlfriend are not sexually involved right now. They want to keep their relationship plutonic for now. When I see them holding hands and enjoying being together so much, I think “how could this be wrong?”

When you objectify your beliefs it is much easier to hold them sacred. When something comes and knocks on the door of your house, then it’s different. God is that way too. Do you think he/she looks at you and says “you know, if you just weren’t so critical of everything, I would let you come to Heaven.” Or “if you didn’t get so angry in traffic, I would love you.” Or “if you didn’t spend so much time gossiping with your friends you would be alright in my book.”

No, God isn’t like that. People who believe this person or that person is going to Hell don’t really know those people they condemn. The make them objects and categorize them in the “bad” category. They don’t feel personally attached to the “bad” ones because if they did, they wouldn’t be able to keep them on the “bad” list. That’s why God doesn’t have a “bad” list. He/she does know each of us personally and he/she could never send anyone to Hell.

Now I’m talking to all of you who believe there is a Hell and that there are people who will go there someday: “As long as you keep your ears shut, your house of cards will not fall. As long as you refuse to let a logical thought enter your head, you will continue to swallow whatever the preacher tells you is right. You don’t have to think, you’ve got the Bible, the preacher, the Sunday school teacher. Is that what you really believe? But if one little doubt enters your head, your whole system of beliefs will begin to fall. It’s time you started thinking for yourself. Give it a try.”

[Eireann]

Yes, I know my brother and the company he's keepin'
Yes, I know my brother well, he sings a different tune
Yes, I know my brother well, I've heard it said he's queer as hell
Pray that he's in love, as well ... higher than the moon!

Thanks for the information
Thanks, but no thanks, for the information
Thanks, but no thanks, for the information
Cuz information's got your number, too

-- "Information", by the Rainmakers

People who like to point the finger at gays and find every fault they can in them need to heed the words above.

[Knight]

How sad.. you love her BECAUSE SHE IS GAY?

So you would love her less if she were straight?

[wickwoman]

Dear Knight:

It is never sad to love someone.

I love her because she is gay, because she has brown eyes, because she has light brown hair and a very cute nose. I love her because she is a perfectionist, because she laughs at my jokes, because when she was a toddler she used to sing to herself while she was using the potty. I love her because she procrastinates, because she drives too fast, and because she once she told me to "hush" when I was singing her a lullabye. (I'm not a very good singer.)

I love her because she's mine. I've always loved her. Since the day she was born.

Dear Eireann:

I was trying to remember your name the other day. I was citing you as one of the "enlightened" ones. Thanks for the post.

[Poly]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Knight:

It is never sad to love someone.

I love her because she is gay, because she has brown eyes, because she has light brown hair and a very cute nose. I love her because she is a perfectionist, because she laughs at my jokes, because when she was a toddler she used to sing to herself while she was using the potty. I love her because she procrastinates, because she drives too fast, and because she once she told me to "hush" when I was singing her a lullabye. (I'm not a very good singer.)

I love her because she's mine. I've always loved her. Since the day she was born.


Why shouldn't the evil love the evil?

[calvinistkid]

A question for you- you fault us for "not having to think. we have the Bible, the Preacher, etc." You tell us to give you a logical reason out of our own heads. Then you go on to say (with quite a bit of conviction) that:
"No, God isn’t like that. People who believe this person or that person is going to Hell don’t really know those people they condemn. The make them objects and categorize them in the “bad” category. They don’t feel personally attached to the “bad” ones because if they did, they wouldn’t be able to keep them on the “bad” list. That’s why God doesn’t have a “bad” list. He/she does know each of us personally and he/she could never send anyone to Hell. "
These are absolute statements about God. What I would like to know is where you found this "divine knowledge" about God? What is your authority in saying these things?
On an ending note, I would like to offer you what the apostle Paul said in the 9th book of Romans- "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"
With love in Christ'
Leon

[calvinistkid]

As far as loving her is concerned, do not stop. We are to show love to sinners of all kinds. This does not mean that we condone their actions. Perhaps at this point in her life your daughter is living apart from God. Perhaps she has come to know the Lord, but is still weak in the faith. If this is the case, then her love for God will lead her to desire to do His will and obey His commands. Don't get me wrong- she will not become perfect overnight. She will continue to sin until the day she dies. But those sins will have been atoned for, and God will give her the desire to stop.

[Freak]

Eireann-an enlightened one? Now, that's a first.

Wickwoman--

God loves your niece so much that He desires her to repent of her homosexuality and to live a holy life in Christ.

Jesus loves gays, theives, murderers, etc but He demands for them to repent before entering eternal hell. Wickwoman--homosexuality is a evil learned behavior. God does not create homosexuals. Yuo are very misinformed if you believe she was born gay.

Love you niece unconditonally and point her to Jesus.

[Eireann]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Eireann:

I was trying to remember your name the other day. I was citing you as one of the "enlightened" ones. Thanks for the post.
Thanks. And ... you're welcome.

[Eireann]

Originally posted by Freak
Eireann-an enlightened one? Now, that's a first.
Wisdom comes in all flavors. No one is "enlightened," in the sense that they have a transcendent wisdom in all things. In certain areas, I'm sure I'm more wise or enlightened than you. In other areas, I'm sure you're more wise or enlightened than I. I think it all depends on the issue and where our particular knowledge or experience lies.

[Sozo]

Even if she was born gay (which she wasn't), Jesus said you must be born-again. So how we are born the first time is nearly not as relevant as what happens when you are born a second time. And those who have been born a second time are children of the living God, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who would never encourage a homosexual relationship or lifestyle.

[Eireann]

Originally posted by Sozo
Even if she was born gay (which she wasn't).
I respect that you believe this, but why do you believe it? How do you know (not "believe," but "know") that homosexuals aren't genetically predisposed to their orientation? I'm not saying one way or the other, because I honestly don't know, but what are your objective criteria for making such an absolute statement?

[wickwoman]

Dear Polycarpadvo:

Re: Evil loving Evil

Typical. Response. Here they come again!

Dear Calvinistkid:

My statements about God are about a person (me) using their head instead of quoting from a book constantly. You are obviously unfamiliar with this behavior.

[wickwoman]

Do not dismiss those that call upon their Lord morning and evening, seeking His countenance. You are not accountable for them, just as they are not accountable for you. Then if you drive them away, you yourself may become one of the wrongdoers.

-Qur'an, Al-An'am, Surah 6:52
Translated by Aneela Khalid Arshed.

[wickwoman]

O.K., that's from the Qur'an, you know. Now you can see how annoying it is when someone quotes from a book and doesn't express their own opinions. However, in this instance I agree with the Qur'an. Timeless wisdom comes in all kinds of packages, not just from the Bible.

[Freak]

Originally posted by wickwoman
O.K., that's from the Qur'an, you know. Now you can see how annoying it is when someone quotes from a book and doesn't express their own opinions. However, in this instance I agree with the Qur'an. Timeless wisdom comes in all kinds of packages, not just from the Bible.

Did you know that Qur'an's false god Allah is impersonal? We do not read of him loving humanity in a personal way. Is this a god you really want to turn to (or his writings?).

Jesus however offers a personal relationship to all who come to Him.

[wickwoman]

Dear Freak:

How often do you read the Qur'an? How much of the Qur'an have you read?


Back to the subject at hand:

I know a woman who used to use the "N" word until her daughter married a black man. Now she has black grandchildren and she doesn't use that word any more.

She realized that, through no fault of their own or anyone's for that matter, they were born black. It was totally out of their control. So how could being black be wrong? Of course, it's not.

It's the same for gay people. Until you love a gay person, it's easy for you to say it's their fault, or to call them faggots or to say God will send them to Hell. But when you have a truly personal and loving relationship with someone, you cannot condemn them.

When you raise your Bibles and point your "holier than thou" finger, you're no better than the white hooded men who burn crosses on black people's lawns. They think the Bible says black people are inferior. Does that make their hatred any less wrong?

[Ryokan]

It is a pointless fight, wickwoman. The problem is they have a fundamentally different view of the world than you, one that would be shattered irrepably if they accepted your niece. And it is very scary to go through life without a set view.

And wickwoman tends toward the mystic end of things, so she knows God loves because she feels it, not cause any book says it. At least that is the way I interpret her.

[Freak]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Freak:

How often do you read the Qur'an? How much of the Qur'an have you read?


Back to the subject at hand:

I know a woman who used to use the "N" word until her daughter married a black man. Now she has black grandchildren and she doesn't use that word any more.

She realized that, through no fault of their own or anyone's for that matter, they were born black. It was totally out of their control. So how could being black be wrong? Of course, it's not.

It's the same for gay people. Until you love a gay person, it's easy for you to say it's their fault, or to call them faggots or to say God will send them to Hell. But when you have a truly personal and loving relationship with someone, you cannot condemn them.

When you raise your Bibles and point your "holier than thou" finger, you're no better than the white hooded men who burn crosses on black people's lawns. They think the Bible says black people are inferior. Does that make their hatred any less wrong?

I have read portions of the Koran. Tedious reading. I have lived in Islamic nations. Have you? Have you ever been under Sharia Law? I have. I speak from personal experience and knowledge.

[Freak]

Wickwoman--

I have a few friends who have turned to lesbianism/homosexuality for one reason or another. I love them but do not accept their evil behaviour. Homosexuality destroys lives.

[Lion]

An inside look at Wickedwoman’s original post from page one:?

My nephew was a pedophile from the day he was born. I don’t know what caused it. Maybe he got a little too much of this hormone or too little of that. All I know is that every picture I see of him from the day he started to play with others, he liked to play with children a little more than adults. I can’t put my finger on it now, I just know he was different. That doesn’t make him a sinner.



When he was 4 years old he used to dress up in his dad’s work clothes and work boots (always trying to look older). For Halloween he was always an army man or a Star Trek captain, (someone older than the other kids). All of his friends were little’(er) boys. He chose them because he liked little’(er) boys better. When he saw that younger boys liked kids their own age better, he was devastated. His best friend, Patrick told him one day teenagers were “icky.” It changed his attitude about life forever.

Sometimes I wonder if it was something I did or said (like that time in the bathroom) or something his mom or dad did or didn’t do. When it comes right down to it, it doesn’t matter (how could it since there are no eternal consequences and we are just evolved animals anyway). Whether it was environment or genetics, nevertheless, he had no control over what happened to him and in him. It just was. Either way, no loving god (that I would create) would send him to Hell for it. Of this I am sure (I hope).

So tell me that god thinks he’s an “abomination.” But this time, tell me while using my brain. Don’t quote from some book or authoritative source. Give me a reason as to why God is going to send him to Hell, from my beliefs and thoughts, for being a pedophile? I challenge you to give me one good reason (from my point of view). He is not harming anyone, he is not even harming himself. He always gets the little boys to play with him by giving them presents and by being nice. They never complain. What harms my pedophile nephew the most is when he tries to fit in and be normal.

He’s much happier now that he is freely a pedophile, with no guilty feelings. He and his young friends are not sexually involved right now (the child’s parents haven’t dropped him off to be baby sat yet). He wants to show the parents how nice he is. When I see him holding that young boy and enjoying being together so much, I think “how could this be wrong?”
When you make up your beliefs it is much easier to hold them sacred. When something comes and knocks on the door of your house, then it’s different. god is that way too. Do you think he/she/it looks at you and says “you know, if you just weren’t so critical of pedophiles, I would let you come to Heaven.” Or “if you didn’t get so angry in traffic, I would love you.” Or “if you didn’t spend so much time gossiping with your friends you would be alright in my book.”

No, the God I’ve made up isn’t like that. People who believe this person or that person is going to Hell don’t really know those pedophiles they condemn. The make them objects and categorize them in the “bad” category. They don’t feel personally attached to the “bad” ones because if they did, they wouldn’t be able to keep them on the “bad” list. That’s why the God I made up doesn’t have a “bad” list. He/she/it does know each of us personally and he/she/it could never send anyone to Hell (I wouldn’t let he/she/it!).

Now I’m talking to all of you who believe there is a Hell (there isn’t of course….I hope) and that there are people who will go there someday (not me of course….I hope): “As long as you keep your ears shut, your house of cards will not fall. As long as you refuse to let what I call (in my infinite and unathoritive wisdom) a logical thought enter your head, you will continue to swallow whatever the preacher tells you is right. You don’t have to think (I certainly never do), you’ve got the Bible, the preacher, the Sunday school teacher. Is that what you really believe? But if one little doubt enters your head (like maybe it’s okay to be a pedophile), your whole system of beliefs will begin to fall. It’s time you started thinking for yourself, (after all, we are all gods, or at least I am). Give it a try (I command you).”

[Poly]

Originally posted by Lion
An inside look at Wickedwoman’s original post from page one:?

My nephew was a pedophile from....
Wow.. talk about putting it into perspective.:thumb:

[Paradõsis]

We should love everyone because they are made in the image of God. With this image comes a responsibility, though: we must "seek holiness" (ie. He who is Holy). Therefore, when we truly love someone and we see them heading towards an infinitely dark cliff, we warn them.

Some people think that God puts up barriers: I agree. God puts up barriers around cliffs so that we don't fall into them. It's our choice whether we climb over them or not. Those who don't care about God will climb over the fence in defiance, sometimes just to prove that they can do anything they want. Christians will not climb over the fence, not because they are legalists following rules, but because they trust that God knows best and follow his guidance.

If you see someone heading towards a cliff, and getting ready to climb over a fence, try to stop them. I'm very saddened by what I see today in the way of excuses and rationalisations for sin. I think there will be many on judgment day who will say:

"But God, you made me this way"

To which God might respond:

"I didn't make you that way, I only allowed you to be born that way. What's more, I allowed everyone to be born with defects and with their "image" dirtied. Now, why did you make excuses and avoid me instead of letting me clean you off?"

Saying that homosexuality is "natural" (ie. "I was born that way") is like saying that death is "natural". Just because it happens without a person intending it to happen, and just because God allows something to happen, that doesn't make it good or proper. God promises us so much more if we stop focusing on what is "natural" and start focusing on what he can supernaturally do, through his uncreated grace.

I love your niece too (and I know God does to). That's why I hope and pray she seeks the Lord on His supernatural terms, not on hers, which are natural and fallen.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Lion
He is not harming anyone, he is not even harming himself. He always gets the little boys to play with him by giving them presents and by being nice. They never complain. What harms my pedophile nephew the most is when he tries to fit in and be normal.

Dear Leo:

Are you making an argument for pedophilia? It seems you believe that nobody is harmed by pedophiles. Either that or you've gotten your sins mixed up.

I haven't seen a reasonable challenge to the idea that being gay harms no one.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Are you making an argument for pedophilia? It seems you believe that nobody is harmed by pedophiles. Either that or you've gotten your sins mixed up.



Well at least you have finally admitted that homosexuality is a sin!

[shilohproject]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Wow.. talk about putting it into perspective.:thumb:

Do you two honestly equate the sexual proclivities of consenting adult homosexuals with the preditorial behavior of a pedophile?
If so, that's scary.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Wow.. talk about putting it into perspective.:thumb:

Here's let's put Leo's opinion into perspective.

"Leo was a judgmental hatemonger since the day he was born, he isn't hurting anyone . . ."

Wait, that doesn't work here. That does hurt someone. Oh well. I'm just not as handy with words as Leo.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Wow.. talk about putting it into perspective.:thumb:

Here's let's put Leo's opinion into perspective.

"Leo was a judgmental hatemonger since the day he was born, he isn't hurting anyone . . ."

Wait, that doesn't work here. Being judgmental and full of hate does hurt someone. Oh well. I'm just not as handy with words as Leo.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Sozo


Well at least you have finally admitted that homosexuality is a sin!

Since I don't believe in sin you can call anything you want a sin and it doesn't frighten me. When something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist and "sin" is not a real thing that exists. It is something dreamed up in the mind of man to perpetuate the falacy that man is separate from God.

[wickwoman]

Dear Paradosis:

If I had a child, how would this wash:

"I had a child and he wasn't perfect. I purposely abused alcohol while I was pregnant because I wanted my child to have the experience of overcoming the physical defects he would suffer as a result of my alcohol abuse. When he overcomes this defect I purposely caused him to have, then I will love my child and allow my child to live with me at our beautiful home I've built for us. If my child doesn't overcome the difficulties of the birth defect I've forced on him, I've created a torture chamber for my child to live out eternity. I'm such a wonderful and loving parent!! It's my child's choice to overcome his difficulties and live at our beautiful mansion with me or to be tortured for all eternity! Freewill is my middle name!

[calvinistkid]

Wickwoman, I would like to know how you come to the conclusion that my beliefs are "illogical". I would agree that from YOUR worldview they are, but from my worldview YOUR position is illogical. You see, a person's most fundamental beliefs (who God is, why they exist, etc.) determine the way that they look at life. I believe that homosexuality is a sin because I believe that a sovereign God decrees it is so. You may deny the existence of my particular deity, but that does not in any way make my position illogical (if my particular deity does not exist, then I may be WRONG, but wrong and illogical are two very different things).
Secondly, I would like to address your accusation that I am being "judgemental". You claim that she was born that way, and that it is wrong to say that the way she was born is not "good". For a minute I am going to lay aside my disagreement with you about the possibility/impossibility of being born homosexual. We could argue about that for months and I have a feeling that neither one of us would get anywhere. So let's assume for a moment that she WAS born that way. Does that make it right? Let me give you an example. I have a friend who'se brother was born with down's syndrome. Now, he did not have down's syndrome through any fault of his own. However, his family sought to place him into programs to overcome the symptoms of this disease so that he could live a "normal" life. Was that being "hateful" or "judgemental"? Were we being "intolerant" of his status as mentaly and physicaly retarded by seeking to "fix" him? I hope you see my point here. Even if homosexuality was something that you could be born with, what makes it different than any other birth defect that we would throw up our hands and say "Too bad. They were just born that way."?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by calvinistkid
Let me give you an example. I have a friend who'se brother was born with down's syndrome. Now, he did not have down's syndrome through any fault of his own. However, his family sought to place him into programs to overcome the symptoms of this disease so that he could live a "normal" life. Was that being "hateful" or "judgemental"? Were we being "intolerant" of his status as mentaly and physicaly retarded by seeking to "fix" him? I hope you see my point here. Even if homosexuality was something that you could be born with, what makes it different than any other birth defect that we would throw up our hands and say "Too bad. They were just born that way."?

No, it is not bad that your friends want their child to live a normal life, however, it would be bad if your friends decided that because their child did not overcome his/her physical limitations he/she would have to go to Hell for all eternity.

I respect your beliefs. I'm sorry if I was disrespectful. Sometimes I get carried away. You see, this issue is very personal for me. I love my niece very much and wouldn't want to change a thing about her. My only wish for her is that she be happy. If I, a human being, am capable of such love, how much more is God?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by wickwoman


Since I don't believe in sin you can call anything you want a sin and it doesn't frighten me. When something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist and "sin" is not a real thing that exists. It is something dreamed up in the mind of man to perpetuate the falacy that man is separate from God.

Then why did you refer to it as a sin?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Sozo


Then why did you refer to it as a sin?

Lion referred to pedophilia in the same vain as homosexuality. I believe the remark from me was that Lion got "his" sins mixed up, if you want to get technical. Thus eluding to the fact that Lion thinks homosexuality is a sin. So, if I call something a sin, that would be to say a Christian thinks this it is a sin. It is a somewhat sarcastic comment.

[Calvinist]

Define me, narrow me, you deprive yourself of yourself. Nail me down in a box of cold words, those words are your coffin. --Rumi

I thought the expression was, "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me."

[calvinistkid]

Originally posted by wickwoman


No, it is not bad that your friends want their child to live a normal life, however, it would be bad if your friends decided that because their child did not overcome his/her physical limitations he/she would have to go to Hell for all eternity.


Well, I think you are slightly misunderstanding my beliefs. I believe that homosexuality is wrong, but I don't believe that it is the homosexuality per se that will send her to hell. It is the sinful nature that we are all born with. The homosexuality is merely an outgrowth of this nature. If God choses to change her sinful nature ("save" her), then she will be given the desire AND the ability to turn from her current lifestyle.

Originally posted by wickwoman
I respect your beliefs. I'm sorry if I was disrespectful. Sometimes I get carried away. You see, this issue is very personal for me. I love my niece very much and wouldn't want to change a thing about her. My only wish for her is that she be happy. If I, a human being, am capable of such love, how much more is God?

I understand that this is a personal issue. I would not want you to stop loving your niece. However, I believe that it is quite possible to correct in love.

[wickwoman]

Dear Calvinistkid:

I assume you are a Calvinist. I don't know a lot about Calvinism. Based on your post above it appears that only some are chosen by God, others will be doomed? Is that correct? I am not being critical, only curious. Have you ever referred to it as "fate?"

I am a firm believer in fate, that things are chosen beforehand to be a certain way (possibly by us in our pre-birth state) and that we choose our particular disabilities, defects, habits, or propensities so that we can learn from them and spiritually evolve into the perfect spiritual beings we are one day to be.

So, if someone wanted to say a homosexual chose to be such PRIOR to their birth and this "difference" would be a way for them to better themselves spiritually, then I would agree wholeheartedly. However, to say that sexual preference is a sin, is to put too much emphasis on the physical body which, for the most part, is only a vehicle we use to travel through this life.

Look at all of nature which is only a reflection of the creator. Even flowers are sexual, it is the way they continue their species. So, as to what sex God is, if forced to chose, I would have to say he/she is a hermaphrodite. Because all came from him/her and there was no one who pre-existed God. Therefore, he would have no one to mate with in order to give birth to the universe. It is also possible that God does not have a body, so he/she is neither male, nor female.

Homosexuality is a threat, mostly to men, because it brings a third sex into the equation - one who may look like something on the outside, but feel like something else on the inside. And since, at the root of Christianity is the belief that men are put at the head of the family, thus superior, this makes things a little muddy.

Or how about this idea, natural selection is the process by which a population is kept under control. I believe "they" say that more people are alive right now than have lived and died in the history of man. That's amazing! I think we all know the earth is over populated. Some will die of diseases, starvation will weed out some. Absent intervention, a homosexual cannot procreate with his or her partner. What if homosexuality is nature's answer for reducing the population of the earth? When we just put some thought into these important issues rather than placing them quickly into neat little categories that don't frighten us, it's amazing what answers we can come up with.

[o2bwise]

My view is definitely in contrast to everyone else's here.

Poly, Lion...
To equate pedophilia with homosexuality without extensive explanation is pathetic. This is the Current Events forum where people's beliefs are far more pluralistic than those beliefs you can conveniently wrap within the confines of your own.

In short, words are recipient-dependent. In this case, they couldn't work. They could only harm. I am inclined to think "hurting" was your intent all along.

And Poly, your words about "evil loving evil," well, thank God that while we were still sinners (evil), Christ died for us. Do you embrace a theology so deviant from that of Christ?


wickwoman,

Here is my view and it is the view of one within recovery for homosexuality. No one chooses to be homosexual. I agree.

But, it is at least hypothetically possible that humans were created in such a way that were they to be 100% "whole" in a psychological sense, their only mode of sexual expression could be heterosexual within a life-long committed monogamous relationship.

Conversely, if one is homosexual, that is symptomatic of an inner brokenness of heart. And were that brokenness healed, the person would be homosexual no more.

I state this as a hypothetical. Assuming it is true, far be it from me to insist that "unwellness" is "wellness."

Now, you claim that your niece may be gay because of genetic factors, i.e. she was born that way. Well, so what? Biblically speaking, even our very flesh has a moral component. Sin is of the mind, but our flesh is a source of pulls to submit to sin.

The Christian life is, in part, a call to have the lusts and passions of the flesh be crucified. One is not appealing to biblical Christianity when one advocates a certain behavior on the premise that one has a propensity for that behavior due to one's very own genetics.

I am not here to insist your niece is "lost." I know of homosexuals who were "born again" and remained in homosexual monogamous relationships - for a season. We are all sinners. Particular sins are revealed, not in a moment, but in progressive fashion.

But, it is my own sense that it does not take long in the Christian walk of sanctification before one happens upon the discernment that homosexuality indeed is sin.

I would guess that IF your niece is a spiritual person and given her contentment in homosexuality, she is at a baby stage in her walk.


Back to the "Christians." I do not think most have any idea how truly difficult this particular sin is. And I think this is precisely WHY it is biblically referred to as an abomination. The sin itself has such binding cords. Recovery is a process. It may take years.

As an example, I know one homosexual for whom the very thought of being intimate with a woman is totally repulsive to him.

How would any of you like to be like that? How would you like to be such a way that you sexually burn for your own sex and are repulsed by the opposite sex?

Heed the admonishment of Hebrews 13 (I believe verse 3). Walk in his moccasins. Not in his sin, but understand the prison bars that hold him. Trace cause and effect.

If you did, there would be far more compassion and love - and NO judgment. That would be left to God.

Tony (o2)

[Poly]

Originally posted by o2bwise
And Poly, your words about "evil loving evil," well, thank God that while we were still sinners (evil), Christ died for us.


Yes, thank God, He did so that we could be (evil) no more.
Do you embrace a theology so deviant from that of Christ?
No

[o2bwise]

Poly,

My point stands, unrefuted. God loves that niece, thus, it need not follow that wickwoman loves her niece because she (wickwoman) is evil.

You seem to have some understanding of the law. I look forward to the day you have a deeper understanding of its weightier matters.

o2

[Poly]

Originally posted by o2bwise

You seem to have some understanding of the law. I look forward to the day you have a deeper understanding of its weightier matters.


Oh let me guess. By saying weightier matters you must be refering to the idea that Jesus was embarrassed by what His Father the mean old tyrant, said in the law so He came to change it around bit while He was here.

[wickwoman]

Quote Polycarpadvo:

"you must be refering to the idea that Jesus was embarrassed by what His Father the mean old tyrant, said in the law so He came to change it around bit while He was here."

Jesus came to correct the idea that MAN had made his Mother/Father into a mean old tyrant.

[calvinistkid]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Calvinistkid:

I assume you are a Calvinist. I don't know a lot about Calvinism. Based on your post above it appears that only some are chosen by God, others will be doomed? Is that correct? I am not being critical, only curious. Have you ever referred to it as "fate?"

I am a firm believer in fate, that things are chosen beforehand to be a certain way (possibly by us in our pre-birth state) and that we choose our particular disabilities, defects, habits, or propensities so that we can learn from them and spiritually evolve into the perfect spiritual beings we are one day to be.


Yes, I am a calvinist. Yes, I believe that some are chosen by God while others are not. No, I don't refer to it as "fate", mainly because the term implies control by an impersonal force. While I do believe that our lives are controlled, I believe that this controll is exerted by a sovereign, loving, holy, and just God for the purpose of his own glory. I very firmly disagree with your suggestion that this chosing is done by us in any way. Some may ask why a holy God would choose to have some live lives of sin. To this I would reply that I honestly don't know for sure. I suspect that it is because he desires for ALL aspects of his being to be revealed. If He chose to save every man, woman, and child ever born, that would display his love, but it would end there. We would never see his justice, his holiness, his intolerance for all things impure. Even the concept of mercy would lose its beauty without something to compare it with. If God choses to create some solely for the purpose of displaying his justice in them, then so be it. It is his right as creator to do with his creation as he pleases. As far as "evolving into the perfect spiritual beings we are one day to be", I believe that this is the case for all those chosen by God, not for all of mankind. And because the Bible teaches physical ressurection (and I believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God), I believe that in this perfect state we will have perfect physical bodies.

Originally posted by wickwoman
So, if someone wanted to say a homosexual chose to be such PRIOR to their birth and this "difference" would be a way for them to better themselves spiritually, then I would agree wholeheartedly. However, to say that sexual preference is a sin, is to put too much emphasis on the physical body which, for the most part, is only a vehicle we use to travel through this life.

Again, I disagree. I do not see such an extreme division between body and soul.

Originally posted by wickwoman
Look at all of nature which is only a reflection of the creator. Even flowers are sexual, it is the way they continue their species. So, as to what sex God is, if forced to chose, I would have to say he/she is a hermaphrodite. Because all came from him/her and there was no one who pre-existed God. Therefore, he would have no one to mate with in order to give birth to the universe. It is also possible that God does not have a body, so he/she is neither male, nor female.


I would agree in a sense with your statement that nature is a reflection of the creator. The Bible says "the heavens declare the Glory of God. The skies proclaim the work of his hands." You mention that even the flowers are sexual beings. I would point out that there are no "homosexual flowers". In fact, homosexuality is only found in mankind. Why? Because since animals and plants have no souls and are not given minds as humanity is, they are incapable of sin. As far as God's gender is concerned, I believe that He is male, although since you apparently deny the authority of the Bible there is really no way to convince you of that point.

Originally posted by wickwoman
Homosexuality is a threat, mostly to men, because it brings a third sex into the equation - one who may look like something on the outside, but feel like something else on the inside. And since, at the root of Christianity is the belief that men are put at the head of the family, thus superior, this makes things a little muddy.


Actualy, Christianity does not teach that man is "superior", it teaches that he has a position of authority. There is a difference.

If you would like to learn more about what I believe, feel free to send me an e-mail or private message. I am always open to friendly discussion.

In Christ,
Leon

[wickwoman]

Dear Leon:

Re: homosexual plants

Actually, there are plants that contain both the male and female "necessary components." Just for accuracy.

thanks for sharing your beliefs.

[calvinistkid]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Leon:

Re: homosexual plants

Actually, there are plants that contain both the male and female "necessary components." Just for accuracy.

thanks for sharing your beliefs.

Yes, but aren't the "male" parts interacting with the "female" parts? Wouldn't that still be hererosexual activity, even though both are on the same plant? Is there an example of two male plant parts interacting or two female plant parts interacting for some reason? I admit that I only have a highschool-level knowledge of biology, but I have never heard of anything like that happening.

[Wonder Woman]

Tony (02),

Thank-you for your post. Nice to hear a small wise voice in the midst of damning cries.

How are you, BTW?

[o2bwise]

Hi WW!,

Thanks!

I'm doing pretty good! How are you? Good, I hope.

It's really great to hear from ya...

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[firechyld]

Homosexuality and bisexuality occur in many animal species. If you'd like, I can throw sources at you until your head explodes. It's certainly not an unheard of phenomena... just not a very popular one amongst the homophobic.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by calvinistkid


Yes, but aren't the "male" parts interacting with the "female" parts? Wouldn't that still be hererosexual activity, even though both are on the same plant? Is there an example of two male plant parts interacting or two female plant parts interacting for some reason? I admit that I only have a highschool-level knowledge of biology, but I have never heard of anything like that happening.

If two male plants interacted with each other there would be no new plants produced. Since plants interact purely from a level of propagation of the species, the element of desire is not an issue. Plants do not have sex for pleasure, however, human beings do.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by firechyld
Homosexuality and bisexuality occur in many animal species. If you'd like, I can throw sources at you until your head explodes. It's certainly not an unheard of phenomena... just not a very popular one amongst the homophobic.

Please do. I would love to learn more about it.

Re human beings: I am familiar with studies of children born with the sexual organs of one sex on the outside and the organs of the other on the inside. I believe the term is intersexed. Do you know about this also?

[Eireann]

Originally posted by firechyld
Homosexuality and bisexuality occur in many animal species. If you'd like, I can throw sources at you until your head explodes. It's certainly not an unheard of phenomena... just not a very popular one amongst the homophobic.
I saw this piece once on Discovery Channel about a species of frog in, I believe, South America. All members of the species are male, but during mating season, some of them will spontaneously change sexes in order to produce young. However, they still combine sexually during the off-season. They just don't produce offspring at that time.

[Elena Marie]

I enter here only because seeing animal behavior used to support human behavior drives me nuts.

Disturbing Behaviors of the Orangutan

Anne Nacey Maggioncalda and Robert M. Sapolsky
Scientific American, June 2002 Pp. 60-5.

". . ..[T]he study of primates has demonstrated time and again that the behavior of these animals is far from Disney-esque. Just consider the strategic infanticide of lanur monkeys or the organized aggression--some call it genocide--between groups of chimpanzee males.

". . .. More important, the orangutan's physiology, life history and social structure are completely unlike those of any other primate. Orangutans have evolved a unique set of adaptations [in the case of this article, rape] to survive in their environment and hence it would be the height of absurdity to draw simpleminded parallels between their behavior and those of humans.

[Eireann]

Originally posted by Elena Marie
I enter here only because seeing animal behavior used to support human behavior drives me nuts.


Nevertheless, it's a very relevent argument. Many a time have opponents of homosexuality offered that homosexuality is unnatural and occurs only as a perversion in humans and nowhere else in nature. Observations of animal behavior prove that argument bunk, so the opponents of homosexuality are unable to use the "it's unnatural" argument. It may not lead to propogation, but that has no bearing on whether or not the act is natural, or the inclination.

[Flipper]

Elena Marie quoted:

Just consider the strategic infanticide of lanur monkeys or the organized aggression--some call it genocide--between groups of chimpanzee males.

33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain


- Deuteronomy 2

It's certainly a bit more flowery in its prose, as befits the literary primate.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Eireann
Many a time have opponents of homosexuality offered that homosexuality is unnatural and occurs only as a perversion in humans and nowhere else in nature. Observations of animal behavior prove that argument bunk, so the opponents of homosexuality are unable to use the "it's unnatural" argument. It may not lead to propogation, but that has no bearing on whether or not the act is natural, or the inclination.

I repent!!

Although I have argued otherwise, I am inclined to agree that homosexuality is natural...

... and so is murder, lying, stealing, adultery, envy, coveting, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these.

"Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

That is why it is essential that we are born-again...

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

To protect us from our "natures" we must enforce strict laws to keep us from natural, but inappropriate behavior. This is why God desires all men to be saved and receive a new nature...

"...in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. "

In Romans Chapter 1, Paul clearly spells out the fact that the natural function of man is with woman, and likewise the natural function for woman is to be with man. But, God has given all over to depraved minds, and to death, so that all men apart from God are on the same level. Likewise, all who are in Christ are also the same.

[o2bwise]

Hi wickwoman,

I am curious why my post did not elicit a response from you.


Hi firechyld,

just not a very popular one amongst the homophobic.

Just my "sense," but this statement causes me to think your understanding of the subject was formed very much by voices that are political. The idea that homophobia is some all-inclusive reason why all persons who have a contrasting take on homosexuality have that "take," is highly naive and thoughtless.

I do not believe I am afraid of homosexuals or of homosexuality.

o2

[Hank]

Originally posted by Elena Marie
I enter here only because seeing animal behavior used to support human behavior drives me nuts.



I believe a Christian was the first to bring this up. That being said, humans are animals. And I remember my psychology text being filled with animal studies that were related to human activity.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Hank


That being said, humans are animals. And I remember my psychology text being filled with animal studies that were related to human activity.

And there you have it... :nono: more proof that the psychological profession is the perpetrator of anti-Christ rhetoric, whose primary purpose is to brainwash the weak-minded, and keep us looking to ourselves for truth.

[Hank]

Originally posted by Sozo


And there you have it... :nono: more proof that the psychological profession is the perpetrator of anti-Christ rhetoric, whose primary purpose is to brainwash the weak-minded, and keep us looking to ourselves for truth.

Now that was profond.

I’ll bet you don’t believe the earth rotates around the sun either. LOL

[Hank]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Why shouldn't the evil love the evil?

I find it hard to believe someone with such a beautiful avatar can be so cold-hearted towards a group of people. Were you abused as a child? Were your parents not affectionate towards you? Do you have homosexual thoughts and feel you must yell louder than anyone to make sure no one has any inkling of those thoughts?

I’m not trying to be sarcastic Poly, I’m just immensely curious as to what makes you have so much hatred.

[Hank]

Originally posted by o2bwise
Hi wickwoman,

I am curious why my post did not elicit a response from you.

o2

I know it wasn't addresed to me but although I might not agree with everything you said, I thought it was well thought out, courteous and relevant.

[wickwoman]

In response to your offer to give us more evidence of bisexual plants, etc., I posted this reply. You must have missed it before.

Originally posted by wickwoman


Please do. I would love to learn more about it.

Re human beings: I am familiar with studies of children born with the sexual organs of one sex on the outside and the organs of the other on the inside. I believe the term is intersexed. Do you know about this also?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Sozo


And there you have it... more proof that the psychological profession is the perpetrator of anti-Christ rhetoric, whose primary purpose is to brainwash the weak-minded, and keep us looking to ourselves for truth.

Aha! A conspiracy theorist in our midst. That's what I love about TOL, you never know what kind of person you'll run into. Being an Aquarian, I enjoy meeting all kinds of "interesting" people.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by wickwoman


Aha! A conspiracy theorist in our midst. That's what I love about TOL, you never know what kind of person you'll run into. Being an Aquarian, I enjoy meeting all kinds of "interesting" people.

Idiot! It has nothing to do with "conspiracies". It has to do with a underlying philosophical foundations.

[Poly]

Originally posted by Hank


I find it hard to believe someone with such a beautiful avatar can be so cold-hearted towards a group of people. Were you abused as a child? Were your parents not affectionate towards you? Do you have homosexual thoughts and feel you must yell louder than anyone to make sure no one has any inkling of those thoughts?

I’m not trying to be sarcastic Poly, I’m just immensely curious as to what makes you have so much hatred.
Why would I have to have had some terrible childhood experience in order to hate evil the way my God commands of me? Homosexuals sicken me as God expects that they should. If a homosexual truely repents and turns to God then you'll find nobody on this Earth that would be rejoicing more than me as has been the case.

[Hank]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Why would I have to have had some terrible childhood experience in order to hate evil the way my God commands of me? Homosexuals sicken me as God expects that they should. If a homosexual truely repents and turns to God then you'll find nobody on this Earth that would be rejoicing more than me as has been the case.

I didn’t say you had a terrible childhood experience, I was asking if that was the reason. Usually someone who has so much hate towards others has had some bad experiences. If you say it’s just because you think God told you to then so be it. I’m sorry you have that opinion of God.

[Eireann]

Originally posted by Sozo


And there you have it... :nono: more proof that the psychological profession is the perpetrator of anti-Christ rhetoric, whose primary purpose is to brainwash the weak-minded, and keep us looking to ourselves for truth.
How do you get a conspiracy out of comparison and contrast between animal behavior and human behavior? Do you not believe that humans are part of the animal kingdom? Do you not believe that we can get insight into human behavior by observing our close cousins in nature?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Eireann

How do you get a conspiracy out of comparison and contrast between animal behavior and human behavior? Do you not believe that humans are part of the animal kingdom? Do you not believe that we can get insight into human behavior by observing our close cousins in nature?

What?

Are you reading my last 3 posts? Why would you ask this?

[Eireann]

Originally posted by Sozo


What?

Are you reading my last 3 posts? Why would you ask this?
It was your next to last post. Your last post -- "Idiot! It has nothing to do with "conspiracies". It has to do with a underlying philosophical foundations." -- had to do with Wickwoman's accusation of conspiracies based on the post I quoted.

But as to why I asked this, why do you think the psychology profession is perpetrating anti-Christ rhetoric because they observe animals that exhibit similar behavior to humans in order to gain insight into how and why humans behave, especially infants? Why is that anti-Christian? Where in the Bible does it say to not observe animals to learn from them?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Eireann

It was your next to last post. Your last post -- "Idiot! It has nothing to do with "conspiracies". It has to do with a underlying philosophical foundations." -- had to do with Wickwoman's accusation of conspiracies based on the post I quoted.

But as to why I asked this, why do you think the psychology profession is perpetrating anti-Christ rhetoric because they observe animals that exhibit similar behavior to humans in order to gain insight into how and why humans behave, especially infants? Why is that anti-Christian? Where in the Bible does it say to not observe animals to learn from them?


We are not animals. God is not an animal. Man is created in the image of God, not monkeys.

I hope you had a chance to read the post that showed I have changed my view regarding the "natural" condition of homosexuals.

[Hank]

Originally posted by Sozo



We are not animals. God is not an animal. Man is created in the image of God, not monkeys.


Well that may be true but we look so much like monkeys that sometimes conservative Christian scientist have trouble determining whether a fossil is human or ape. LOL

You throw around the word idiot a lot but I’m beginning to wonder if you realize we are in the 21st century and discovered that humans are animals a long time ago. We have superior reasoning skills (well some do) and many believe that we have a spirit that is in the image of God but physically we are animals. That is a fact whether you like it or not.

[Eireann]

Originally posted by Sozo
We are not animals. God is not an animal. Man is created in the image of God, not monkeys.
We are animals. We are arguably the highest form of animal, but we are still animals (as opposed to plants or minerals, or spirits if you consider that a viable "kingdom"). We share all the common characteristics and requirements for animalhood. Naturally, like all animals, we do possess some of the traits of the other groups, especially mineral, but we are animals first and foremost. Ultimately, the mineral kingdom is the predominate kingdom, as both animals and plants are built of mineral substances.

God is neither an animal nor a human. We presume that God is a spirit. When the Bible said that we are made in the image of God, it wasn't referring to a physical or biological image. The image of God does not remove us from being animals. We are part of the animal kingdom. There are only three -- animal, plant, and mineral. If you're not one, you're one of the other (or a combination thereof, as algae seem to be). And last time I checked, we're not minerals or plants. We're animals.

I hope you had a chance to read the post that showed I have changed my view regarding the "natural" condition of homosexuals.
Yes, I did. I'm glad you understood my viewpoint, and you are right that its being "natural" does not necessarily make a statement about the rightness or wrongness of the act, nor was I trying to make any such statement. I don't hold strongly one way or the other about homosexuality. I think homosexual men are great ... it means less competition for those of us who aren't! :p

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Hank


Well that may be true but we look so much like monkeys that sometimes conservative Christian scientist have trouble determining whether a fossil is human or ape. LOL

You throw around the word idiot a lot but I’m beginning to wonder if you realize we are in the 21st century and discovered that humans are animals a long time ago. We have superior reasoning skills (well some do) and many believe that we have a spirit that is in the image of God but physically we are animals. That is a fact whether you like it or not.

It's hard to use the word idiot with you, becuase it is slightly above your intellectual level to understand what the word means.

[Sozo]

You guys are completely seduced by science fiction. We are not animals. Classifications are devised by man to do away with God's sufficiency. It is quite laughable that man actually thinks that he can replace God, through redefining His creation.

[Hank]

Originally posted by Sozo


It's hard to use the word idiot with you, becuase it is slightly above your intellectual level to understand what the word means.

Coming from an intellectual giant like yourself that really hurt. LOL

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Hank


Coming from an intellectual giant like yourself that really hurt. LOL

As most pseudo intellectuals mistakenly believe, intelligence and knowledge are not the same.

You may have a great deal of knowledge, but so what :rolleyes: , anybody can read books. You have already proven yourself to be void of intelligence.

[Freak]

I'm curious, Wickwoman, why did you stray from your Christian upbringing?

[Eireann]

Originally posted by Sozo
You guys are completely seduced by science fiction. We are not animals. Classifications are devised by man to do away with God's sufficiency. It is quite laughable that man actually thinks that he can replace God, through redefining His creation.
Well, the notion that man is an animal far predates the earliest science fiction.

Why don't you explain just why we aren't animals? Even if we're made in the image of God, how does that make us not animals? Also, don't forget to address the fact that we possess all the biophysical characteristics of animals.

The "image of God," whatever that ultimately means, may well serve to separate us from the other animal species, in the sense that it advances us to a higher form, but it does not remove us from being what we are -- animals. Do we not bleed? Do we not require ingested nourishment to survive, food and water? Do we not reproduce and propogate our species? Do we not possess a cellular structure like all other animals, consisting of a nucleus, protoplasm and a cell membrane?

And why do you believe that taxonomy and classification is an attempt to replace God, especially considering that many in the science fields believe in God? And again, where does the Bible say we are not animals?

Why are you so insulted that people consider humans to be animals? If anything, I would say it is the rest of the animals who should feel insulted. It isn't them that made a real mess of this home planet of ours. It's us, God's ultimate creation, that is the true embarassment to creation.

[Hank]

Originally posted by Sozo


As most pseudo intellectuals mistakenly believe, intelligence and knowledge are not the same.

You may have a great deal of knowledge, but so what :rolleyes: , anybody can read books. You have already proven yourself to be void of intelligence.

Ooh......pseudo intellectual. Now you are intimidating me with those big words. Yesterday I didn’t even know what one was and today I is one. LOL

My wife agreed with you. You are a real hoot and a lot of fun Sozo. At first I didn’t but now I’m beginning to like you because you make both of us laugh.

[Flipper]

Hank, Eireann and Wickwoman:

You have to learn that a towering intellectual giant like sozo has entirely dispensed with the need to provide any kind of evidence for his sweeping assertions because he's so clever. For if he speaks it then lo! It is so!

By throwing around terms like "idiot" and "pseudo-intellectual" he effortlessly establishes his dominance in the intellectual hierarchy. Sozo's world view doesn't need evidence. It just is. He's kind of a solipsist that way.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Freak
I'm curious, Wickwoman, why did you stray from your Christian upbringing?

Freak:

De ja vus. I believe you asked me this months ago. Anyway, for the #1 reason look at the posts of people like Sozo who call themselves Christian. #2 reason I know God, he/she's not like that. #3 I grew beyond it we all will eventually. It is for people who don't like to think for themselves.

Don't get me wrong, Jesus is my hero. I've always found him a very amazing person. If I could be just a little like him before I die, I will have evolved enough for this lifetime.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Flipper
He's kind of a solipsist that way.

No, God is the only reality. Unlike you, and your friends, I know Him. God doesn't have any opinions, and mine are to express what God has revealed to all men who are "smart" enough to deny their own understanding.

[Lion]

wickedwoman-you said Are you making an argument for pedophilia? It seems you believe that nobody is harmed by pedophiles. Either that or you've gotten your sins mixed up.

I haven't seen a reasonable challenge to the idea that being gay harms no one.Really, well the wicked are blind, so I guess that would make sense. Let’s see, how many homos die every year from aids? Well, that isn’t really hurting anyone is it? How many children die from aids? Oh, well they don’t really count. How many wives get aids from their (supposedly) bi-sexual spouses? No problem, not according to you, anyway. Not to mention the highest rate of murder, drug addiction and violent crime among any group in America, is homo on homo crime. Male homo’s die at an average age of 43, if they don’t get aids. If they do, a few years drop off of that. But, no, it doesn’t hurt anyone, there’s no evidence to show that. Only all of society and themselves. But wickedwoman thinks that’s just fine.

[Hank]

Originally posted by Flipper
Hank, Eireann and Wickwoman:

You have to learn that a towering intellectual giant like sozo has entirely dispensed with the need to provide any kind of evidence for his sweeping assertions because he's so clever. For if he speaks it then lo! It is so!

By throwing around terms like "idiot" and "pseudo-intellectual" he effortlessly establishes his dominance in the intellectual hierarchy. Sozo's world view doesn't need evidence. It just is. He's kind of a solipsist that way.

There you go Flipper throwing around those big words like Sozo. This used to be fun here at TOL. Now I have to keep a dictionary by my computer to keep up with you and Sozo. Maybe my wife is correct when she tells me I am from the shallow end of the gene pool. LOL

[Hank]

Originally posted by Sozo


No, God is the only reality. Unlike you, and your friends, I know Him. God doesn't have any opinions, and mine are to express what God has revealed to all men who are "smart" enough to deny their own understanding.

Smart enough to deny my own understanding? So I should affirm my misunderstanding? Well how can you argue with that?

Man I simply pointed out that mankind was classified as an animal in our biological classification system. I hate to think what Zozo would be saying about me if I had said something a little less obvious.

[Lion]

Not only is she blind, but a liar as well Don't get me wrong, Jesus is my hero. I've always found him a very amazing person. If I could be just a little like him before I die, I will have evolved enough for this lifetime.You mean to tell me you have as a hero the person you hate most in all the world? Or do you really think Jesus was heroic when He said these things? John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.Boy what an ego, and you like Him?John 3:18-21 “He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men and wickedwoman) loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. “But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”You mean this Guy? This is the Guy you think is a hero?Luke 19:27 ‘But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”He sounds a little judgmental, don’t you think?Lev 20:13 ‘If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.Oh, no, you can’t mean Him, not Him.Mat 15 4-9“For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ “But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— ‘then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. “Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”No, way you can’t mean Him?Mat 16:15-17 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.Wow, He’s the Christ? The Son of the living God? So, let me see now. He’s your hero, right? That must mean you believe Him when He says He is the son of the living God? Is that what you believe, oh wickedwoman?Mark 14:62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”Better run wickedwoman, because your hero is coming, and He’s coming for you!

[firechyld]

Aak! Sorry, people waiting for a response from me... I missed your posts. I'll get to it later today.

[Flipper]

No, God is the only reality. Unlike you, and your friends, I know Him. God doesn't have any opinions, and mine are to express what God has revealed to all men who are "smart" enough to deny their own understanding.

I don't recall God ever expressing his opinions as fact on psychiatry and psychology, or a number of other topics that you've held forth on.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Flipper


I don't recall God ever expressing his opinions as fact on psychiatry and psychology, or a number of other topics that you've held forth on.

Right Flipper, the God who is creator of the universe and all that is in it, is unacquainted with the problems that plague the heart & mind such as fear, depression, hope, mental stability, & anxiety. So I guess the over 1000 verses that deal with those issues are just mindless chaff.

[Freak]

Originally posted by wickwoman


Freak:

De ja vus. I believe you asked me this months ago. Anyway, for the #1 reason look at the posts of people like Sozo who call themselves Christian. #2 reason I know God, he/she's not like that. #3 I grew beyond it we all will eventually. It is for people who don't like to think for themselves.

Don't get me wrong, Jesus is my hero. I've always found him a very amazing person. If I could be just a little like him before I die, I will have evolved enough for this lifetime.

When did you start calling God he/she?

[OMEGA]

In this stressful era , it is hard to be a Christian.

So, you have to forgive the rest of us if we are a

little bit embittered at someone who takes the easy way out .

Go your way . It is not your time yet to be judged .

YOUR TURN WILL COME LATER !


(1 Pet 4:17 KJV) "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

(1 Pet 4:18 KJV) "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"


:thumb:

[Hank]

Originally posted by OMEGA
In this stressful era , it is hard to be a Christian.

So, you have to forgive the rest of us if we are a

little bit embittered at someone who takes the easy way out .

Go your way . It is not your time yet to be judged .

YOUR TURN WILL COME LATER !


(1 Pet 4:17 KJV) "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

(1 Pet 4:18 KJV) "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"


:thumb:

I don’t know where you are from Omega but in the Bible belt where I’m from it easier to be a Christian than not. I just find it hard to believe it’s hard to be a Christian anywhere in America.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Lion
wickedwoman-you saidReally, well the wicked are blind, so I guess that would make sense. Let’s see, how many homos die every year from aids?

The disease kill people every year - not the homosexuals. Our ultra conservative government doesn't think the lives of homosexuals are important enough to devote the kind of money needed to find a cure.

I still haven't found out why you think pedophilia doesn't hurt anyone.

You seem to have elevated yourself to quite a high place. You get to decide who dies, who goes to Hell. Interesting. It must be quite an awesome responsibility, being judge of humanity.

[wickwoman]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lev 20:13 ‘If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's funny, I never realized Jesus wrote the book of Leviticus. I was thinking it was Moses. Silly me.

You always have something intelligent to say. Do you get all of your words from the Bible? If you're not using your brain, you could donate it to science. It would make for very interesting studies.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Hank


I don’t know where you are from Omega but in the Bible belt where I’m from it easier to be a Christian than not. I just find it hard to believe it’s hard to be a Christian anywhere in America.

Dear Hank:

I agree wholeheartedly. I have experienced more stress in my life since I decided to begin figuring things out for myself. It's very easy to accept the religion we were spoon fed as children in Sunday school. It's another matter altogether to actually set out to discover if that religion holds water.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Freak


When did you start calling God he/she?

Dear Freak:

Is that all you've got?

[wickwoman]

Dear Lion and Sozo:

Just fresh from church this Sunday evening and you've got so many wonderful and loving things to say. You know, if you keep talking so sweet to me I might start to like you!

Nothing like a scathing message from a red faced, fried chicken eating, preacher to fill us all with righteous indignation. What was the preacher's message yesterday: judge thy neighbor? Well it looks like your week is off to a great start. KEEP SPREADING THE LOVE!!

[Ryokan]

Lion, its worth pointing out that quoting scriptural rhetoric to people who don't take the bible literally or as the final word for morality is pointless. Also, don't you think it is possible that social factors, in part created by people like yourself, rather than homosexuality in generally, (which doesn't have those problems in more accepting cultutres, except AIDS), cause all those issues?
Probably not.

And OMEGA, it is defintely easier to be a christian in the US.

[o2bwise]

Hello Poly,

I was going to get to this sooner or later.
Oh let me guess. By saying weightier matters you must be refering to the idea that Jesus was embarrassed by what His Father the mean old tyrant, said in the law so He came to change it around bit while He was here.

Um yeah, that’s a pretty good guess!

I would hazard to guess that Mr. Enyart’s church has some biblical explanation for how Jesus treated the woman caught in adultery. Regardless, the following is my understanding of that event.

The Pharisees catch a woman caught in adultery. The law is CLEAR. She is to be stoned to death. The Pharisees seem ready to pick up stones and do just that, however, Jesus prompted something quite different. The woman was not stoned.

Or was she?

It is written that Jesus is the Chief cornerstone and he who falls on the rock is broken in pieces. He on whom the rock falls is crushed. That woman was stoned, her heart was broken in a zillion pieces, and she “died” and “rose again” to live life anew.

So, Poly, just WHAT law are you referring to?

Those laws are there, but is it possible that their rendering is person-dependent? Is it possible there is a plurality of ways to understand those laws? A plurality that is a function of the degree to which one grows in a knowledge of God?

Two thousand years ago, a bunch of clergymen plotted the crucifixion of the Son of God. At the very same time, they were obedient to all the details of the law as they performed the Passover service. And why not? Atonement is made by animal blood, says their holy book – over and over again. And no one is to drink of the blood. This alleged Messiah insisted one must drink His blood or one does not have life.

Heretic!

This is a case in point where an understanding of “law” was undergoing a bit of a shift. No more animal blood. It’s cool to drink Christ’s blood (in some sense – I believe it is a metaphor).

I suggest that the law of which you refer has some of the same attributes. Like the stoning law. Sure, you can see it through the lens of a Jew walking this earth 2300 years ago, but you can also see it through the lens that is the life of Christ as well as His observance of that law, such as when that woman was caught in adultery.

The day will come when to have a view of “the law” that you have will be tantamount to strictly following the Passover feast, in all its details. All the while Christ, in a sense, is crucified anew. This time by the misrepresentation of His character – which you most surely have done. And continue to do every time you misrepresent him with your deeply impersonal and succinct replies, not even bothering to address alleged brothers in Christ by their name.

There is a coldness of heart that feels like an arctic chill. Yeah, I meant weightier matters and you can BANK on that.

You wrote, in another post:
Homosexuals sicken me as God expects that they should.

I am not sure that homosexuals sicken God (while I am sure that their homosexual acts certainly do).

Regardless,

God first loved us. Christ asked forgiveness for the folks who nailed Him to the cross. He loves us in our sin. We may end up lost, but still He loves us.

Tony (o2)

[Goose]

My cousins are all homophobic and I love them for it. And so does God.

[Poly]

Originally posted by o2bwise
He loves us in our sin. We may end up lost, but still He loves us.

Tony (o2)
Will He love the lost when they are in hell?

[Freak]

Originally posted by wickwoman


Dear Freak:

Is that all you've got?

Well, I guess we are trying to figure your bizarre ideas out. It's not normal to call God a she. I have traveled to nearly 30 countries of this world and have yet come by someone who calls God a "she"--quite strange.

[calvinistkid]

Just wondering... is there a single debate/discussion thread on this site that HASN'T turned into a name-calling free-for-all after the first few pages? Are there even two people on this site who are able to discuss a controversial topic without resorting to ad hominem arguments, and more importantly, able to ignore the ones that ARE used. I mean, honestly, does namecalling even deserve to be recognised and responded to, or should we ignore it during the course of the discussion and rebuke it later, like a discontent two year old tugging on his mother's pant leg while she is trying to talk to a friend?

[Hank]

By CK

Just wondering... is there a single debate/discussion thread on this site that HASN'T turned into a name-calling free-for-all after the first few pages? Are there even two people on this site who are able to discuss a controversial topic without resorting to ad hominem arguments, and more importantly, able to ignore the ones that ARE used. I mean, honestly, does namecalling even deserve to be recognised and responded to, or should we ignore it during the course of the discussion and rebuke it later, like a discontent two year old tugging on his mother's pant leg while she is trying to talk to a friend?

When I first started posting here it kind of hurt my feelings when someone called me a name. I thought they were being un-Christian and I thought I was just trying to debate the subject in a rational way. But over time, I realized it was a sure sign that someone had no logical reply and had conceded the point. Also it’s a good opening to insert a little humor. And I have a great sense of humor.

However that being said I do understand your point about every thread turning into a name-calling contest and agree with you on that.

[o2bwise]

Hello Poly,

If you grabbed a Greek Old Testament (Septuagint or LXX), you would realize that the Greek words aion and aionios need not mean of eternal time duration. Once that is realized, it follows that the mere presence of those words, in a text of scripture, does not lend any more weight with respect to referring to eternal time duration versus temporal time duration.

Of the eternal fires:

Isaiah 33:14-15
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil:


It is the righteous who dwell in the eternal fires.

And just what are the eternal fires? What is the unquenchable fire, that cannot be put out?

Song of Solomon 8:6-8
6 The Shulamite to Her Beloved Set me as a seal upon your heart, As a seal upon your arm; For love is as strong as death, Jealousy as cruel as the grave; Its flames are flames of fire, A most vehement flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love, Nor can the floods drown it. If a man would give for love All the wealth of his house, It would be utterly despised.


What a contrast! You ask if God will love the lost when in “hell” while the Bible states that the eternal fires ARE love!

As the parable of the two houses demonstrates, the same storm that causes one house to be destroyed, is endured by the other. This storm is an unveiled revelation of the love of God. For it is His goodness that reveals our character.

Isaiah 33:17-18b
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty; They will see the land that is very far off. 18 Your heart will meditate on terror:

Isaiah 28:17-20
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it. 19 As often as it goes out it will take you; For morning by morning it will pass over, And by day and by night; It will be a terror just to understand the report." 20 For the bed is too short to stretch out on, And the covering so narrow that one cannot wrap himself in it.


The report is an unveiled revelation of our sin-sick souls. The house built on the rock is as the spiritual man in James. All people who are of this house, in the last days, receive the storm progressively and are purified by it.

James 1:23-25
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times.


There is the unveiling – seven times. And there is the furnace. For one group, it enables chastening, cleansing and for another, it is their final destruction (Daniel 3 is a nice parallel to this, in the physical realm).

Matthew 13:40-43
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


Note the parallels. Furnace. Fire. Note the righteous shine forth as the sun (boy, that is pretty fiery!). Jesus exhorts, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” While most sit on the surface of the word and thus, understand less God’s lovely character.

Whether the object lesson be storm, furnace, water, sword, birth pangs, cup, or whatever, the illustrations are similar. Two groups are exposed to the same thing.

One is destroyed and one is perfectly cleansed.

The lost are destroyed by a full revelation of love because they see too much of their sinfulness in too short a time frame. They “pull a Judas” and the pain comes from their own burning psyche, just as with Judas.

Why does God do this? Does He relish the sufferings of the lost? No!

He must vindicate His justice before the universe. When the righteous are prepared to survive the storm, He allows them to be subjected to it. They feel to be altogether sinful, but they survive because they are righteous. The lost are destroyed by the very same revelation. They feel no more sinful. But, lacking righteousness, their response is despair.

This twinfold revelation proves:
1. Salvation is innate to righteousness itself.
2. Condemnation is innate to sinfulness.
3. The same load that crushes the lost can be endured by the righteous.

God cannot bear false witness. The universe sees how good righteousness is and how bad sin is and the revelation is so intense that while free will is not denied them, no one will ever choose sin again. The universe is eternally safeguarded from sin.


Poly, in a book I read, the author wrote that people cannot rise above their conceptions of Deity. I now know partially why you are as obviously cold-hearted as you are. You have assigned attributes to God that are satanic – and you do not rise above your misunderstood conception of the Lord.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[calvinistkid]

Originally posted by Hank
By CK



When I first started posting here it kind of hurt my feelings when someone called me a name. I thought they were being un-Christian and I thought I was just trying to debate the subject in a rational way. But over time, I realized it was a sure sign that someone had no logical reply and had conceded the point. Also it’s a good opening to insert a little humor. And I have a great sense of humor.

However that being said I do understand your point about every thread turning into a name-calling contest and agree with you on that.

Yeah. It doesn't "hurt my feelings". I have done enough discussion/evangalism in my short life to get beyond that. It is annoying, however. Perhaps I was wrong, but I had just assumed that Christians were held to higher standards than the rest of the world.

[evseeker]

I am just new to this thread, but as I read through some of it I noticed a request to explain the story of the women caught in adultery and why Jesus did not uphold the Law.

I wondered about this myself until someone pointed out the opening verses of this that are usually omitted in discussions about it.

John 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

I understand that under the rule of the Romans, the Jews were not permitted (under penalty of death?) to publicly advocate or carry out the death penalty for infractions of their Law.

It seems to me that Jesus acted very wisely in order to thwart the evildoers who were intent on trapping Him and thus prematurely ending His ministry. In addition, it serves to illustrate His divinity because only God has the power to forgive a sin that was not committed against us.

[o2bwise]

Hi evseeker,

As I tried to point out, if the law is looked at in a deeper way, Jesus actually did stone the woman caught in adultery.

God Bless,

Tony

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by o2bwise
Hi evseeker,

As I tried to point out, if the law is looked at in a deeper way, Jesus actually did stone the woman caught in adultery.

God Bless,

Tony

Did he also go and find the man she was caught in adultery with and "stone" him as well? We don't read that in the Bible do we? Since the scribes who recorded these events were probably conditioned to be chauvinistic, it seems they didn't find that important to mention in the Bible.

[Poly]

O2b,
Had I known this was going to turn into "What exactly is Hell?" I would have rephrased the question. So let me do so now.
Will God love those who are seperated from Him for all eternity due to their not accepting Him while on Earth?

Originally posted by o2bwise


I now know partially why you are as obviously cold-hearted as you are.


You've brought this up several times now making it seem as though I don't have a shred of compassion in my whole body. You need to stop. I have compassion where compassion is deserved. Just because homosexuals sicken me and I make no bones over how I feel toward them, as is expected of me by God, does not mean I am a completely cold-hearted person.
You have assigned attributes to God that are satanic – and you do not rise above your misunderstood conception of the Lord.
What attributes have I assigned to God that are Satanic?

[DEVO]

There all lots of different types of people.

I see two types of people emerging on this thread.

Those that claim they have compassion and demonstrate that compassion through generally apathy.

And then there are those claim they have compassion and demonstrate that compassion even if it means others may perceive them as having no compassion.

True compassion may (and most likely will) involve discomfort.

Assume your brother is a drug addict. The true compassionate would warn the brother of his destructive lifestyle and risk the brother's friendship in an effort to save his life.

[Poly]

Originally posted by DEVO
There all lots of different types of people.

I see two types of people emerging on this thread.

Those that claim they have compassion and demonstrate that compassion through generally apathy.

And then there are those claim they have compassion and demonstrate that compassion even if it means others may perceive them as having no compassion.

True compassion may (and most likely will) involve discomfort.

Assume your brother is a drug addict. The true compassionate would warn the brother of his destructive lifestyle and risk the brother's friendship in an effort to save his life. :thumb:

If a child in in the middle of the railroad tracks and a train is dangerously close am I going to say sweetly in a soft voice, "little girl, you need to get off the track" or am I going to scream my full head off at her to get off and even shove her off if need be which could result in some bumps and bruises?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by DEVO
True compassion may (and most likely will) involve discomfort.

Assume your brother is a drug addict. The true compassionate would warn the brother of his destructive lifestyle and risk the brother's friendship in an effort to save his life.

I see no parallel between drug addiction and homosexuality. It is uncomfortable for Polycarpadvo to love a homosexual, therefore, he finds them disgusting. That doesn't make him compassionate.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

What attributes have I assigned to God that are Satanic?

Hate.

[Eireann]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo
If a child in in the middle of the railroad tracks and a train is dangerously close am I going to say sweetly in a soft voice, "little girl, you need to get off the track" or am I going to scream my full head off at her to get off and even shove her off if need be which could result in some bumps and bruises?
Not a valid comparison. A child standing on the tracks, presumably unaware of approaching danger, is not an informed lifestyle decision. The feelings of homosexuals may or may not be inborn, but to live the lifestyle is a conscious decision. I'd wager that the vast majority of them are well aware of the physical dangers associated with the lifestyle and are more than well aware of the social stigma attached. Screaming your head off at them to get "off the tracks" is less than useless. And shoving them "off the tracks" isn't your right. So you can keep up the fantasy that you're showing some misbegotten heroism, or you can be a true compassionate, let them know that you're there for them if they need you, but recognize that the decision is theirs to make, not yours.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Freak
Well, I guess we are trying to figure your bizarre ideas out. It's not normal to call God a she. I have traveled to nearly 30 countries of this world and have yet come by someone who calls God a "she"--quite strange.

If you know about pagans then you know that pagans believe in gods and goddesses that represent the different aspects of the one true God who is the "all."

This would be a good place to Eireann to step in if he's still watching this thread.

Unity is a Christian religion that addresses God as he/she or mother/father in some churches, out of respect for people who do not believe God has sexual organs. Do you?

[Eireann]

yeah, I've meet quite a few people who call God a "she." Not just pagans, either. I've known Christians of various denominations to do so. Some were feminists, some were just trying to seem less chauvenistic, some even just said that when they thought of God, they felt more like the attributes of God they most connected with were maternal rather than paternal. I usually refer to God as S/he, incorporating both genders. Of course, we have no real idea if God even has a gender, so to speak. The Hebrew personification understandably reflects the patrifocal structure of that society, but doesn't really speak to whether God is male, female, both, or neither. Remember, even though the Bible says God created man in "their" image, at the same time, we create God in ours. In other words, in an attempt to understand or relate to God, we give him/her human attributes that may or may not be an accurate reflection of who or what S/he actually is. It might be more accurate to refer to God as It, but I doubt many would be comfortable doing so, as it just seems a bit disrespectful and subhumanizing. I don't see how calling God by a feminine pronoun is disrespectful, though. It's a choice.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by o2bwise
My view is definitely in contrast to everyone else's here.wickwoman,

Here is my view and it is the view of one within recovery for homosexuality. No one chooses to be homosexual. I agree.

But, it is at least hypothetically possible that humans were created in such a way that were they to be 100% "whole" in a psychological sense, their only mode of sexual expression could be heterosexual within a life-long committed monogamous relationship.

Conversely, if one is homosexual, that is symptomatic of an inner brokenness of heart. And were that brokenness healed, the person would be homosexual no more.

I state this as a hypothetical. Assuming it is true, far be it from me to insist that "unwellness" is "wellness."

Now, you claim that your niece may be gay because of genetic factors, i.e. she was born that way. Well, so what? Biblically speaking, even our very flesh has a moral component. Sin is of the mind, but our flesh is a source of pulls to submit to sin.

The Christian life is, in part, a call to have the lusts and passions of the flesh be crucified. One is not appealing to biblical Christianity when one advocates a certain behavior on the premise that one has a propensity for that behavior due to one's very own genetics.

I am not here to insist your niece is "lost." I know of homosexuals who were "born again" and remained in homosexual monogamous relationships - for a season. We are all sinners. Particular sins are revealed, not in a moment, but in progressive fashion.

But, it is my own sense that it does not take long in the Christian walk of sanctification before one happens upon the discernment that homosexuality indeed is sin.

I would guess that IF your niece is a spiritual person and given her contentment in homosexuality, she is at a baby stage in her walk.


Back to the "Christians." I do not think most have any idea how truly difficult this particular sin is. And I think this is precisely WHY it is biblically referred to as an abomination. The sin itself has such binding cords. Recovery is a process. It may take years.

As an example, I know one homosexual for whom the very thought of being intimate with a woman is totally repulsive to him.

How would any of you like to be like that? How would you like to be such a way that you sexually burn for your own sex and are repulsed by the opposite sex?

Heed the admonishment of Hebrews 13 (I believe verse 3). Walk in his moccasins. Not in his sin, but understand the prison bars that hold him. Trace cause and effect.

If you did, there would be far more compassion and love - and NO judgment. That would be left to God.

Tony (o2)

I saw your post but did not reply. The reason - I disagree. But I would never presume to try to convince you that your decision to "recover" is wrong. I cannot walk in your shoes. I'm not gay and I have never "burned" for another woman. I can tell you, however, that my neice is a normal, healthy young woman and the only obstacles she must overcome in her life are those created by the very ones who claim be "showing her the way."

A family member said tearfully about my neice - I'm just so afraid she'll be ostracized and ridiculed. My response? Well don't then!

It is illogical and I will never be convinced that God would purposely cause a person to be born with a "sin" or even to acquire that "sin" by some event beyond their control and then damn them to Hell for not overcoming it. You have said you do not condemn my neice, however, the very idea that she must "overcome" what is her natural state of existence is to imply that there is some negative associated with that lifestyle. The only negative is the stigma created by "Christians" and other homophobes who think that God looks down on gay people and points his bony finger in disgust. Meanwhile, they believe that same God will have mercy and grace for their continual judgmental, hateful, and prejudicial words.

In my opinion, if there was a Hell - and there isn't, the first tenants would be the hatemongers. Like the ones you see posting here. Thank God we all get the same measure of grace, karma, or call it what you will. Some of us have many lives to go before we reach our natural glorious state of existence. That is clearly reflected here.

[Freak]

Wickwoman don't be so hateful. There is no reason to say this:

In my opinion, if there was a Hell - and there isn't, the first tenants would be the hatemongers. Like the ones you see posting here

[Poly]

Originally posted by wickwoman


Hate.

Psalm 5:5 "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
Psalm 5:6 " The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty man."
Psalm 11:5 "The Lord trieth the righteous, but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul hates."
Psalm 45:7 "Thou loveth righteousness and hateth wickedness."
Romans 12:9 "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil."
Your god may not hate but the God of the bible hates. (I know, you don't believe in the bible.)

[Freak]

Originally posted by wickwoman


If you know about pagans then you know that pagans believe in gods and goddesses that represent the different aspects of the one true God who is the "all."

This would be a good place to Eireann to step in if he's still watching this thread.

Unity is a Christian religion that addresses God as he/she or mother/father in some churches, out of respect for people who do not believe God has sexual organs. Do you?

Your strange.

Yes, Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, had sexual organs, and your point? But God the Father & Holy Spirit don't (for they are spirit).

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo


Psalm 5:5 "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
Psalm 5:6 " The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty man."
Psalm 11:5 "The Lord trieth the righteous, but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul hates."
Psalm 45:7 "Thou loveth righteousness and hateth wickedness."
Romans 12:9 "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil."
Your god may not hate but the God of the bible hates. (I know, you don't believe in the bible.)

Thank you for telling me what David and Paul said about God. However, I disagree. Obviously, it is easier for you to agree so that God can be more like you.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Freak


Your strange.

Yes, Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, had sexual organs, and your point? But God the Father & Holy Spirit don't (for they are spirit).

thank you, but I believe the discussion was about God "the father."

Strange, I will agree, "wicked" as an earlier sweety called me, is relative.:kiss: :kiss:

[HerodionRomulus]

"....Let’s see, how many homos die every year from aids?...."
According to CDC AIDS in US (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5021a2.htm)
<<<As of December 31, 2000, 774,467 persons had been reported with AIDS in the United States; 448,060 of these had died;....Of these, 79% were men, 61% were black or Hispanic, and 41% were infected through male-to-male sex.
NOTE: 41% of 448,060.

3 million die annually, most in sub-Saha