ARCHIVE: I'm gay and my aunt loves me for it. So does God.

[aquamulier]

Hello all...

I am Wickwoman's neice and Quasi's roommate. I thought I'd sign up and post something since so much has been posted about me. I thought it would be good to put in my perspective. I'm not out to change anyone's mind. I have my views and opinions based on my experiences and you have your views and opinions based on your experiences. That's fine. I just want to offer up my experiences as possible food for thought.

Let's see, where to start. In 1984 I was born a lesbian. I've liked girls since I was in preschool. I remember a distinctive time on the playground (at the Independent Babtist private school I attended for thirteen years...) that I was playing with this little girl that was in my class and I thought, "I want to marry someone like that one day." (I guess it never ocurred to me that the government won't allow that). I was also infatuated with my Sunday School teacher and in first grade I had a thing for one of the second grade teachers. I saw in the cafeteria one day and thought she was just gorgeous.

As my aunt said, all my friends growing up were boys. We played games like Super Mario Brothers and Star Trek on the playground every day. In the third grade my guy friends ditched me because they got teased for playing with a girl. Girls have cooties, ya know. So out of necessity I was forced to play with girls. I never did because they were so boring to me. All they did was play tag every day. Plus, they were all prissy so I didn't have very much in common with them (I was, and still am, such a tomboy). But I adapted. I played tag.

Skip along to sixth grade. Now the girls started talking about boys. I didn't really have much to say about them. Girls are so much prettier. One day I said something about a girl I thought was cute and someone asked me if I was gay. I had absolutely no idea what that word meant. I was so confused. They explained it to me, voiced their disgust, and I blushed and said of course I'm not gay. After that I started trying to get interested in their boy talk.

Enter seventh and eighth grade. I like to call these my experimental years. I had my first boyfriends. We passed notes, we sat together on the bus. How cute. At the end of eighth grade I began to re-realize my attraction to women.

By nineth grade I developed a crush on a girl in band. The first two years of high school were the most miserable of my life. There was an ongoing battle between my head and and my heart. In my heart I knew I loved women...everything about them. But in my head I knew this was in serious conflict with everything I had ever been told. God and I were not on good terms. In fact, we didn't talk much because I was afraid of what I'd been told "he" would say (at the time I only thought of God as a he, but no longer). I don't want to go to Hell any more than the next person. But likewise, being sent to Hell for loving somebody made absolutely no sense to me. I mean really, think about it. How could love (TRUE love) ever be wrong?

So, around my sophomore year of high school I decided to play straight. It didn't go so well. I dated my best friend for a few months and suddenly dumped him. I did (and still do) love him, but I always felt like something was missing...like there could be more. Junior year I was back to being gay again. (Just to clarify, when I say "back to being gay," I don't mean that there has ever been a time when I wasn't gay. I mean that the other times I was fooling myself into thinking I could be something that I'm not - straight.)

I was still confused about God though, so when the church told me homosexuality was caused by an evil spirit, I let them "cure" me. Eventually the Pentecostals gave up (guess my "spirit" was a little too ornery). Then I started going to a non-denominational church who assured me I just needed councelling. Again, no good. All either of these "cleansings" accomplished was to plunge me into some of the darkest, most depressed years of my life. I became almost anorexic, I cut myself a couple times, I cried myself to sleep more nights than not. And I was mad at God.

Eventually, after some self exploration and Bible reading, I came to terms with who I am. I am happier now than I have ever been in my life. I am in a committed, loving relationship with the woman I love. I've finally reached the point were I wouldn't change who I am even if it were possible.

That's pretty much my gay history (in a nutshell...). I am a Christian, but not the kind that you generally think of when you hear the word...but that's a whole other thread. God loves me for the way s/he made me.

Also, I feel the need to point out that I'm a person, not a stereotype. Whatever preconcieved notions you have about lesbians you may as well throw out the window because I am unlike anyone else you will ever meet. And that goes for all homosexuals. We are all different with different stories, different beliefs, and different opinions. This is my story.

~AquaMulier

[quasi]

HETEROSEXUAL QUESTIONAIRE by Martin R.
This questionarre reverses the questions that are very often asked of gays and lesbians by heterosexuals. By trying to answer this kind of question, one can gain some insight into how oppressive and discriminatory a "straight" frame of reference can be to lesbians & gays.
1. What do you think caused your hetersexuality?
2. When and how did you first decide you were a heterosexual?
3. Is it possible your heterosexuality is just a phase you may grow out of?
4. Is it possible that your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of others of the same sex?
5. If you've never slept with a person of the same sex, is it possible that all you need is a good gay/lebian lover?
6. To whom have you disclosed your hetersexual tendencies?
7. Why do you heterseuals feel compelled to seduce others into your lifestyle?
8. Why do you insist on flaunting your heterosexuality? Can't you just be who you are and keep it quiet?
9. Would you want your children to be heterosexual, knowing the problem they'd face?
10. A disproportionate majority of child molesters are heterosexual. Do you consider it safe to expose your children to be heterosexual teachers?
11. Even with all the societal support marriage recieves, the divorce rate is spiraling. Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexuals?
12. Why do heterosexuals place so much emphasis on sex?
13. Considering the menace of overpopulation, how could the human race survive if everyone were heterosexual like you?
14. Could you trust a hetersexual therapist to be objective? Don't you fear that the therapist might be inclined to influence you in the direction of his/her own leanings?
15. How van you become a whole person if you limit yourself to compulsive, exclusive heterosexuality and fail to develop your natural, healthy homosexual potential?
16. There seem to be very few happy heterosexuals. Techniques have been developed that might enable you to change if oyu really want to. Have you considered trying aversion therapy?

and finally this is my own:
17. Do you believe you will go to hell for your heterosexual acts?

These questions are to illustrate how offensive they are, i don't really need literal answers. thanks

[Freak]

Aqua--

God does in fact care for you deeply and completely loves you but His love for you doesn't change the fact that He abhors homosexuality and all the other sexual perversions. God hasn't changed His views on this.

You either line up with His Word and or rebel. You have chosen rebellion. God will not honor your life and your decisions as a result.

We at TOL do care for you and hope you decide to go God's way instead of your way....

[Zakath]

Some others of us at TOL think your sexual orientation is your own business. :rolleyes:

[Sozo]

This place is being overrun by Godless idiots!

[aquamulier]

I respect your opinion that God abhores my lifestyle and that I am a rebel. Believe me it's not the first time I've heard it. But I disagree. I have spents countless hours praying to God about this. I can assure you God does honor my life and my decisions. S/he's been with me every step of my journey, and s/he always will be.

[quasi]

godless? maybe. idiot? you would like to think so to justify your own beliefs.

[Flipper]

Quasi:

Pay no mind to Sozo. He's quite harmless.

[Flipper]

Quasi:

On the other hand, you are in the belly of the beast here.

Read this thread and decide if you want to stick around. You had best have thick skin if you do.

http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6428

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo
This place is being overrun by Godless idiots! Does that mean that Sozo thinks the godless ones are winning? ;)

[Freak]

Originally posted by aquamulier
I respect your opinion that God abhores my lifestyle and that I am a rebel. Believe me it's not the first time I've heard it. But I disagree. I have spents countless hours praying to God about this. I can assure you God does honor my life and my decisions. S/he's been with me every step of my journey, and s/he always will be.

You respect my opinion but what about God's?

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

Homosexuality is a wickedness. But God loves you deeply. He is not a cosmic killjoy. He is warning you my friend. The warning is clear:

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Due penalty for their perversion. Homosexuality brings divine judgement. You must come to repentance, my friend, before it's too late. God is merciful and is patient but will not wait for you to repent forever.

[o2bwise]

Hi aqua,

I just hope for you what I hope for me and for the rest of humanity. That whatever submission to the Lord we enjoy now, if any, as time goes on we have a progressively deeper surrender due in part to seeing more and more how lovely God is.

Please choose to grow in the Lord just as I hope you would want the same for me. No matter what is revealed and no matter how dark the road may sometimes be "for no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:11.

If I were to meet you in person, I would just want to give you a nice, big hug...

God Bless You, Sister,

Tony

[quasi]

flipper- Thanks for your warning, I do realize I am in the belly of the beast and yes I do have thick skin. The reason i'm here is to keep the argument a little more balanced so that everyone doesn't gang up on my roomate and her aunt. And as for my being an idiot sozo, I will gladly show you my IQ and ACT scores, college gpa, full ride scholarship, and honors. But no, thats not what is relevent, what's relevant is the fact that I'm open minded.

[wickwoman]

Dear Aqua and Quasi:

Great thread!

[quasi]

flipper- I did read the boot to the head thread and quite frankly I'm a little confused. I thought Christianity was supposed to be a loving and accepting religion.

[quasi]

I still have not heard a logical and thoughtful response as to how a relationship between two consenting adults is harmful to anyone. And please don't spout off the faulty AIDS statistic from gospel johns website again. Well, I'm off to class, will anyone bite?

[o2bwise]

Hi quasi,

I think I bit. (In the other, related, topic.)

Tony

[Poly]

Originally posted by aquamulier
S/he's been with me every step of my journey, and s/he always will be.
Could you please give us your proof of this since you said you could assure us?

[aquamulier]

"And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

[Z Man]

Originally posted by aquamulier
I am a Christian, but not the kind that you generally think of when you hear the word....God loves me for the way s/he made me.

Aquamulier, I'm not going to argue the fact if you're a Christian or not. I believe that no matter if you're gay or not, it dosn't "unqualify" you from God's saving grace and mercy. Heck, I may not be gay, but there are a ton of other sins that I have committed, and yet, God still has mercy on me and will save me in the end. God can save anybody, whether they're murderers, liers, theives, gay, whatever. So if you're a Christian, than great, God bless you.

But there is something I disagree about with your logic. God does not "ok" homosexuality, just like He does not condone killing, or stealing, or lying, or adultry, or beastiality, or witchcraft, etc., etc. The Bible is very clear on this subject:

If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. - Leviticus 20:13

If you are a Christian, and God has truely saved you, your heart will be changed, and sinning will no longer be desired by you. This does not mean that as Christians, we automatically stop sinning; that's impossible in this lifetime; it just means that you will look for some alternative or some way to stop your homosexual acts. If you feel that being gay is ok in God's eyes, then people will always question the validity of your faith...

[aquamulier]

Freak:

While we're quoting Roman's, I thought I'd take a crack at it...

"We have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone wh believes."

"If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

And my personal fave

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

~Aqua

[aquamulier]

I know what the law says. My personal beliefs on it are my opinion and I won't go into them right now unless you just really want to know. Here's the think about the law: it also says eating shellfish is an abomination (or detestable to God. Whichever translation you want to use). Whether God condones it or not, it doesn't really matter so much because of grace. Wasn't that the whole point of Jesus anyway? If not then there will be a whole lot of unrepented homosexuals and shellfish eaters in Hell ;).

As for people questioning the validity of my faith, who cares what they think. I know my relationship with God, nobody else does. And anyway, peoples opinion of me matters nil. After a while you learn to not care. It's not peoples opinion of whether or not I'm a Christian that concerns me. Only God.

[Poly]

Originally posted by aquamulier
"And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Is this your answer to my question or did you just suddenly feel like quoting a verse from the bible?

And anyway, peoples opinion of me matters nil.
Then why the need to post on here and convince people that you are ok in the eyes of God?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by aquamulier
Whether God condones it or not, it doesn't really matter so much because of grace.

Wrong. Although God's grace does save us from the fact that we cannot uphold to His laws, it dosn't make them any less valid. Jesus came to fulfill the law; not to abolish it. To be gay is still wrong.

[o2bwise]

sigh,

I question the discernment that causes people to assume that all Christians must immediately discern that homosexuality is wrong.

When it is that particular weakness, we are so ready to pounce.

The mirror needs to be held before the Christian. I am just not sure with exactly what clarity, for what specific person, and at what point in time.

At the very least, we are talking about a particular weakness that hits fairly central to a person's - well - personhood. You could be implying the break-up of a relationship which a person believes with all their heart is their "partner in life and for life."

You are talking about scrapping a person's sense of so much and you all seem to know, the time is ALWAYS RIGHT NOW!

Man, I knew Christians who took years to let go of cigarettes, for example and this isn't exactly cigarettes.

I guess you guys got that all figured out.

I also wonder where the compassion is. If any of you are married, take your spouse and imagine that this just may be the kind of person the homosexual you are "correcting" considers his or her partner to be.

It's just so frigging crass and insensitive.

sigh again...

Take Care...

Tony (o2)

[aquamulier]

Z Man:

Then I hope you're ready to uphold ALL the laws, because you can't just pick and choose the one's you like.

Poly:

Did you just wake up a smart alec or are you always this way? As for why I posted in the first place, you amuse me...This is great entertainment!

[Rapunzel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aquamulier
I respect your opinion that God abhores my lifestyle and that I am a rebel. Believe me it's not the first time I've heard it. But I disagree. I have spents countless hours praying to God about this. I can assure you God does honor my life and my decisions. S/he's been with me every step of my journey, and s/he always will be. [/QUOTE

Aqua...you are amazing! :D Rock ON!!!

[quasi]

just for fun, I'd like to bring up the issue of gay marriage.

[o2bwise]

just for fun, I'd like to bring up the issue of gay marriage.

OK, bring it up!

Oh, was that it?:)

[Z Man]

Originally posted by aquamulier
Z Man:

Then I hope you're ready to uphold ALL the laws, because you can't just pick and choose the one's you like.

Obviously you misunderstand me. I don't care if you're gay or not, and I believe that the fact you're gay does not hinder God from saving you. I'm with O2Bwise on this one; the mirror should be placed in front of every Christian that "harps" on you for being gay. But I already stated all of this in my first post. Re-read, if necessary, to understand my postition on your homosexuality.

The only "beef" I have with you is that you will not admit that being gay is wrong. To believe it's ok is not in alignment with God's Word. You said earlier that you've tried several methods to help overcome your homosexuality. But if you believed the whole time that there is nothing wrong with being gay, well, no wonder none of that counseling helped. If you would admit that it's wrong, that would be the first major step to overcoming your homosexuality.

[PureX]

Sin happens in the heart, not the genitals. Love happens in the heart, too, and not the genitals. All these silly religious rules mean nothing. A Christian understands that Christ is about expressing God's love, not following silly religious rules.

Sexuality has two basic functions for human beings. One is procreation, and the other is the physical expression of love, usually for pair-bonding. Sexual activity is not in itself a "sin". It is the misuse of sexual activity that is the sin. And the misuse is defined by an innapropriate and harmful intent. The sin is in the heart.

Christians who use the bible to ratify their ignorance and prejudices against anyone should be ashamed of themselves.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Could you please give us your proof of this since you said you could assure us?

Dear Polycarpadvo:

Your particular brand of Christianity doesn't believe in that still small voice. They believe that people are born stupid, with no propensity whatsoever to seek out a higher power. They are taught from day one to ignore their inner voice, that a newborn baby is full of sin, that they should deny their inborn tendencies, to consider evil their very flesh. Based on your brainwashing, you couldn't possibly understand the concept of knowing something in your spirit. If you did have a thought of your own, you have been taught to doubt it. It's a common brainwashing technique.

Just because these concepts are the norm for your very limited world, don't think that the rest of the world doesn't trust their inner voice.

BYW. The scripture quoted in response was quite applicable to your request.

[Goose]

God loves homosexuals so much that he instituted the death penalty for them.

[Rapunzel]

oh man. There's no need to attack people here. Everyone believes what they will. I really encourage BOTH sides of the issue...because everyone has a right to what they want to say. But when people come out swinging and throwing vicious words at eachother...the whole purpose of this forum is defeated. It's not difficult to keep it civil. I truly believe that Aqua LOVES God. That is evident. However, for someone to come out and completely belittle her because of her lifestyle...almost makes me question where THEY stand with God.

[aquamulier]

Rapunzel, you're my hero...

[aquamulier]

Goose, I'm not even going to honor that statement with a well researched reply. Well, not today anyway. Maybe later...

[Poly]

Originally posted by aquamulier
Poly:

Did you just wake up a smart alec or are you always this way? As for why I posted in the first place, you amuse me...This is great entertainment!
I honestly wanted to make sure that the scripture you quoted was your response to me since you didn't indicate if it was. Why do you quote a verse from the bible which you do not believe in which was made by Christ whom you do not believe in?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Rapunzel
oh man. There's no need to attack people here. Everyone believes what they will. I really encourage BOTH sides of the issue...because everyone has a right to what they want to say. But when people come out swinging and throwing vicious words at eachother...the whole purpose of this forum is defeated. It's not difficult to keep it civil. I truly believe that Aqua LOVES God. That is evident. However, for someone to come out and completely belittle her because of her lifestyle...almost makes me question where THEY stand with God.

Hellooooooooo!!! I've been saying this the whole time! But, if Aqua can't admit that homosexuality is wrong, there's a problem. I'm not saying she's not a Christian or she is one. I could care less about her being gay. I just want her to admit that being gay is wrong. Well Aqua, is it wrong?

[Poly]

Originally posted by wickwoman


Dear Polycarpadvo:

Your particular brand of Christianity doesn't believe in that still small voice. They believe that people are born stupid, with no propensity whatsoever to seek out a higher power.
Christianity does not come in different brands. There is only one brand so whatever "higher power" says it's ok to be a homosexual is against Christianity.
They are taught from day one to ignore their inner voice, that a newborn baby is full of sin, that they should deny their inborn tendencies, to consider evil their very flesh.
I used to listen to that inner voice. It told me that I should be able to have whatever I want and that I should disregard everybody else and only do what was best for me. It told me that there was no such thing as truth. Now that I do know there is truth I feel its not too wise to listen to that inner voice. I'm curious, does your inner voice ever tell you something that you don't agree with? Or do you quite conveniently like everything it has to say? If this be the case how do you know it's something outside of wickwoman speaking? Maybe it's just really convenient to say "well the still small voice said it was ok" so that you don't have to deal with any consequences of the possibility that maybe you are wrong.
Based on your brainwashing, you couldn't possibly understand the concept of knowing something in your spirit. If you did have a thought of your own, you have been taught to doubt it. It's a common brainwashing technique.
Wow, Wick, it's amazing that you know so much about me and you don't even know me. Oh wait. It's probably that voice you keep hearing giving you some kind of telepathy right?
BYW. The scripture quoted in response was quite applicable to your request.
Why do you consider this applicable? Her response was a quote given by somebody you don't even believe in.

[Goose]

Originally posted by aquamulier
Goose, I'm not even going to honor that statement with a well researched reply. Well, not today anyway. Maybe later... I've heard it all before.

[la rubia]

Originally posted by Poly:
I used to listen to that inner voice. It told me that I should be able to have whatever I want and that I should disregard everybody else and only do what was best for me. It told me that there was no such thing as truth. Now that I do know there is truth I feel its not too wise to listen to that inner voice. I'm curious, does your inner voice ever tell you something that you don't agree with? Or do you quite conveniently like everything it has to say? If this be the case how do you know it's something outside of wickwoman speaking? Maybe it's just really convenient to say "well the still small voice said it was ok" so that you don't have to deal with any consequences of the possibility that maybe you are wrong.


I agree, it can be a dangerous thing to listen to a still, small, inner voice... unless of course, what it says lines up with scripture. That's one of the reasons we HAVE scripture.
People who murder, rape, and do horrendous things, many of them heard a small voice inside telling them to do those things, and they are but EXTREME examples of what can happen by listening to the "voice".

[PureX]

Hundreds of thousands of people have been murdered, tortured, imprisoned, robbed, rejected, humiliated and abused in the name of God, Christ, and scriptures. There are roughly 35,000 statements in the bible, any of which can be taken out of context, or misunderstood, or in many cases simply taken at face value, to become the justification for all sorts of heinous criminal behavior.

Where Christians get the idea that the bible is some sort of fountain of love, kindness, and wisdom that can be used to guide us in good and reasoned behavior, I have no idea. History shows us that anyone can find anything they want to find in it, and it's been basically useless as a guide to good and reasoned behavior. Christianity has traditinally been one of the most violent and oppressive ideologies in Earth. The bible itself is full of all manor of violence done in God's name and supposedly at God's bidding. So how can we expect it to "guide us" in any reasonable way?

Even today I hear Christians promoting bloody war against the Islamic "infidels" because it's better that they should die by our guns and bombs than deny Christian dogma. And they get this insane notion directly from their bibles. They don't even have to creatively interpret the words, it's right there in black and white.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Christianity does not come in different brands. There is only one brand so whatever "higher power" says it's ok to be a homosexual is against Christianity.

. . .

Why do you consider this applicable? Her response was a quote given by somebody you don't even believe in.



So all Christians agree? Well, I'm so glad you told me about that. I was under the impression that there are at least 50 different "brands." Thanks for clearing that up.

As for people judging people they don't, know, funny you should mention that. You seem to know what I and Aquamullier believe. Maybe it's you whose a witch and not me, you can read minds!

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Goose
I've heard it all before.

You obviously weren't listening.

[wickwoman]

Dear Poly:

Do you really believe anyone takes your message of hate seriously? You're afraid of your own shadow. How scary it must be running around with nothing to guide you but that little black book. You don't even have your own common sense to guide you because it's evil.

I know that in your small world ignoring your own common sense is the right thing to do. Try to wrap your mind around the idea that everyone doesn't think like you. And if your inner voice is truly evil, then I'm not sure why you think I'm so terrible. My inner voice tells me all sorts of very logical and good things. And yes, sometimes I do have a thought that's not particularly good, but, being the sane person that I am, I know the difference between what is good for me and others and what is bad. It's pretty simple. You seem to believe that common sense wasn't invented until Moses wrote Genesis. People were actually capable of functioning hundreds of years before the first copy of the Bible was released.

[la rubia]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Poly:

Do you really believe anyone takes your message of hate seriously? You're afraid of your own shadow. How scary it must be running around with nothing to guide you but that little black book. You don't even have your own common sense to guide you because it's evil.

I know that in your small world ignoring your own common sense is the right thing to do. Try to wrap your mind around the idea that everyone doesn't think like you. And if your inner voice is truly evil, then I'm not sure why you think I'm so terrible. My inner voice tells me all sorts of very logical and good things. And yes, sometimes I do have a thought that's not particularly good, but, being the sane person that I am, I know the difference between what is good for me and others and what is bad. It's pretty simple. You seem to believe that common sense wasn't invented until Moses wrote Genesis. People were actually capable of functioning hundreds of years before the first copy of the Bible was released.

Some of what you are saying, I agree with, and nobody is trying to say that you should never listen to an inner voice...but I DO believe without a doubt that listening ONLY to an inner voice can be dangerous in certain situations, and as Purex has noted, it is equally dangerous to privately interpret the scriptures of the bible to say whatever you want them to say.
That inner voice has directed me in quite a few situations into doing the wrong thing... even though it seemed like the right thing to do at the time, they were some selfish choices. Sometimes in life, I have to ignore the inner voice, and even ignore what feels the most comfortable, in order to do what is right. Many times, I have to pray, and search the scriptures to see where Jesus stood on certain issues to make sure that I am, indeed, doing or thinking what is right... the flesh can be very deceiving- even when you are a christian.
You are right, that surely common sense WAS "invented" before Moses, and in many cases, we have almost "instincts" that will tell us when something is wrong, however, based on, like I said, how deceiving the flesh can be, I would not rely on an instinct alone, nor a voice alone, I study the scriptures and pray as well.

[la rubia]

Originally posted by wickwoman


Dear Polycarpadvo:

Your particular brand of Christianity doesn't believe in that still small voice. They believe that people are born stupid, with no propensity whatsoever to seek out a higher power. They are taught from day one to ignore their inner voice, that a newborn baby is full of sin, that they should deny their inborn tendencies, to consider evil their very flesh. Based on your brainwashing, you couldn't possibly understand the concept of knowing something in your spirit. If you did have a thought of your own, you have been taught to doubt it. It's a common brainwashing technique.

Just because these concepts are the norm for your very limited world, don't think that the rest of the world doesn't trust their inner voice.

BYW. The scripture quoted in response was quite applicable to your request.
I beg to differ with this post. So, in your opinion, it is "brainwashing" to deny yourself for others? Certainly, there is nothing wrong with knowing something in your spirit, but as I have said before, you have to be careful whose "little voice" you are listening to.
You judge someone for believing the scriptures about the flesh, yet you quote other scripture that you find helpful to your argument- a little inconsistent, don't you think?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by la rubia

I beg to differ with this post. So, in your opinion, it is "brainwashing" to deny yourself for others?

Please explain what you mean when you say to "deny yourself for others." If you mean that your inner voice only speaks selfish desire then I disagree. Your inner voice is the voice placed there by God. It is God's insurance that you will always end up at his/her doorstep in the end. Everyone is guaranteed to follow the right path. Though your human eyes may not see it in the lives of some you consider "evil," they too are headed toward God. IT is inevitible that we will all reach God in the end because he/she said it is his/her will that none should perish and it is impossible that God's will would not be done. He/she is all powerful and so, if he/she wills something, it is done.

As to using some quotes from the bible and saying others are trash. You're right, I do that a lot. There are lots of books I read that I can use my own judgment to decide what parts are true and what are not. When I listen to the news, I use commons sense and logic to decide what's true and false. Don't you? It's not all or nothing, even though many Christians wuold like to say that's how it has to be. It doesn't. I use or discard many principals from the Bible, based on what I know to be true and false. You should do the same. I also use or discard concepts from many other sacred works like the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching, the Upanishads, etc.

[Goose]

Originally posted by wickwoman


You obviously weren't listening. Heaven will not be tolerant of homosexuals.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Goose
Heaven will not be tolerant of homosexuals.

Your heaven, maybe, however, mine won't be heaven if everyone - most especially Aquamullier - isn't there. Until you've really loved a homosexual, your opinion is not valid. Why? Because if I, a human being, can love someone so much, just think how much more God can.

[Goose]

Of course God loved him so much that he sent His son to die for him/her. But if Aqua really loved God, he/she would keep his Words. And His Word is that man should not lay down with man and woman should not lay down with woman. Aqua might "love" God enough to accept His Grace, but not enough to hear and do His Words.

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." - Jhn 15:10

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them." - Lev 20:13

"And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them." - Deu 5:1

THAT is true love

If Aqua really loved God, he/she would hear that what he/she is doing is wrong and obstain from doing them. He/she needs to get help before it's too late.
(Deut 30:11-15)

[wickwoman]

Dear Goose:

Your preconstituted beliefs are very easy for you to cling to because you have never had to put them into practice. Until this issue is personal for you, you can continue to theorize about who will and will not make it to hell, but one day, if not in this life, the next, you will see that God will not send anyone to Hell. He/she loves us all and love does not include an eternity of torture.

[aquamulier]

Someone do me a huge favor and answer this for me because I've always wanted to know:
How do people justify condemning homosexuality but condoning the consumption of shellfish & pork, the wearing of garments of two kinds of cloth, planting a field with two kinds of seed, cutting off sideburns, etc.
Same book. Same Bible. Anyone game?

[aquamulier]

Goose:
Quite frankly, if narrowminded, self-righteous bigots are allowed into Heaven, I don't want to be there anyway. So there you go, we both win.

[aquamulier]

Quote:
Why do you quote a verse from the bible which you do not believe in which was made by Christ whom you do not believe in?

Uh, because I do believe in the Bible and in Christ...

[prayzgod]

Aqua

Someone do me a huge favor and answer this for me because I've always wanted to know:
How do people justify condemning homosexuality but condoning the consumption of shellfish & pork, the wearing of garments of two kinds of cloth, planting a field with two kinds of seed, cutting off sideburns, etc.
Same book. Same Bible. Anyone game?

Those things you listed are under the Old Covenant, not the New. However, the New Covenant still says that homosexuality is wrong. See 1 Corinthians 6, and Romans chapter 1.

Aqua, just a few questions for you:

1.-Do you believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven?

2.-Do you believe that you can only get saved by Jesus?

3.-Do you believe that the unsaved will go to hell?

4.-Do you believe Jesus, when He said "by their fruits ye shall know them?"

PS Welcome to TOL! :D

[Goose]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Goose:

Your preconstituted beliefs are very easy for you to cling to because you have never had to put them into practice.How bout your preconceived judgement. I'm a sinner. I deal with my sins and my walk. I carry my cross.Until this issue is personal for you, you can continue to theorize about who will and will not make it to hell, but one day, if not in this life, the next, you will see that God will not send anyone to Hell.There are no theories. Just the Word of the one true God which you deny and hate.He/she loves us all and love does not include an eternity of torture. What's your authority on this?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Goose:

"What's your authority on this?"

COMMON SENSE.

[la rubia]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wickwoman


Please explain what you mean when you say to "deny yourself for others."

RUBIA: Okay, what I meant by that was based on your previous comments on christians belief about the flesh being evil, and that we are brainwashed... many of those scriptures that we believe in teach us to deny ourselves for others. Many times, an inner voice can lead you to make a decision which at first, seems to be very loving, and a "good" thing to do... but in the long run, it turns out that you made actually, a selfish choice, and in the big picture, it did more harm to the other person than good (not you, personally, but you know what I mean). You spoke in one of your last posts about knowing things in your spirit, and it surprised me that you would judge someone else for believing that the flesh can be very wicked, as spirit and flesh are two different things- heck! The whole new testament deals with spirituality, and gets to the "heart" of the matter, so to speak.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you mean that your inner voice only speaks selfish desire then I disagree. Your inner voice is the voice placed there by God. It is God's insurance that you will always end up at his/her doorstep in the end.

RUBIA: No, that's not EXACTLY what I was saying, but I do believe that this "voice" many times can lead a person in the wrong direction. I also know that I have heard a voice a few times, which actually WAS God speaking to me about something. The bible says to test all things, and generally, if I am hearing a voice which does not line up with the word of God, that's usually an indication to me that the voice was not from God. Can you and I agree that there is a source of evil and deceit in this world? I am sure that we can, whether or not you believe in an actual Satan in the way that I do, but evil is not always ugly and scary like the boogieman.... he is very deceptive, and can make a good thing look wicked, and a thing that is actually very wicked seem okay. That's why I say, that I believe everyone should be very careful about "voices" and even thoughts.
I disagree that the voice is put there by God to lead us to Him until the end.... that is the job of the Holy Spirit. He is who leads us in the direction that we should go, and He is the one who points us in God's direction. If we are living based on the flesh, or let our flesh get in theway, then it is likely that it will be more difficult to discern what God is trying to show us or where He is trying to lead us. I have learned this personally, and fallen on my face from thinking and reasoning out what I thought God wanted or what I should do. LOL We live and learn, I guess.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Everyone is guaranteed to follow the right path.
RUBIA: Everyone is guaranteed to follow the right path IF they "surrender" to Jesus Christ, and worship Him in SPIRIT and in truth.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Though your human eyes may not see it in the lives of some you consider "evil," they too are headed toward God.

RUBIA: Very true, VERY true. I believe that the Holy Ghost is at work in all of our lives, even if some of us are not even looking for it, and I also believe that life is a process of learning, you know? It's full of building blocks, and some of the biggest things I have learned, were through hard times and struggles, God has shown me a lot- about myself, and about Him.
If anyone had seen me- or anyone else for that matter, several years ago, looking at me through the flesh, many thought I would be without God. But sometimes things just don't happen overnight... to get to point D from point A, you have to pass by B and C first. In my spiritual life, I may not be at the place that Poly's at, or o2bewise, or Carl Smuda. It's an individual thing, between them and God. And just because I look at a "nonbeliever" and see a big mess (with my flesh), it certainly does not mean that the Holy Spirit is not at work in their lives, drawing them towards the truth, and unto Himself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IT is inevitible that we will all reach God in the end because he/she said it is his/her will that none should perish and it is impossible that God's will would not be done. He/she is all powerful and so, if he/she wills something, it is done.

RUBIA: Hmm.... sounds like the topic of some of the very heated theological debates that go on between christians! LOL Just kidding. I disagree, because I believe, based on other scripture, that a person has to be willing in order to be saved. I mean, there are some people who literally HATE God, want nothing to do with Him, you know? Perhaps you should start a thread on that subject, it would make for a very interesting debate. But from what I read, and even from the example that Jesus lived out, He was someone who had his will in perfect alignment with the Father- which is the struggle that many of us christians have- our will clashing with God's will (see where the flesh comes in again?)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to using some quotes from the bible and saying others are trash. You're right, I do that a lot. There are lots of books I read that I can use my own judgment to decide what parts are true and what are not. When I listen to the news, I use commons sense and logic to decide what's true and false. Don't you?

RUBIA: Of course I do, I know what you mean. Even when I read books by other christians, I pick and choose what to believe- but according to what the bible says. Now, I can't really do that with the news (wouldn't that be funny? Hehe), but I know what you are saying, and I do it, too.
As far as the bible is concerned, up until about a year ago, every time I picked up that book, I hated it, because all I saw were contradictions and conflicting things, like "thou shalt not" "I will surely smite thee", which terrified me to death! Then there are the love scriptures. I was like, "Geez, make up yer mind, dude!" Then the difference between the Old Testament and the new, and how freaky THAT can seem at first. I really hated that book- it gave me a headache.
It wasn't until about a year ago, that this "christian" woman tried to tell me something that I disagreed with her about- man, she really irritated me (and still does, frankly)!!!! So, I got out the bible, and started looking for the answer, and I said, "Jesus, I know you can hear me, please, just this one time, show me all the scriptures I need to prove this lady wrong!!".... needless to say, He did show me, but it ended up she was right (yep, even a broken clock is right twice a day), but something else happened: my understanding was opened up by God, and the more I read, the more interesting it became, and I hungered and thirsted for more. I began to see symbolism, and patterns, and understand now how it all fit together- and what seemed to be saying one thing to me before, I now saw in a different way. Jesus did this same thing in his day, he spoke in parables to the Pharisees- they thought He was a nut, but the ones who believed and WANTED more, he gave it to them and they understood. I encourage you to seek God to open up your understanding- it's really an unbelievable thing, and the book will begin to fascinate you, I'm serious.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not all or nothing, even though many Christians wuold like to say that's how it has to be. It doesn't. I use or discard many principals from the Bible, based on what I know to be true and false.

RUBIA: Ahhh.... but here is where you are missing out. You see, it can be very unfulfilling to pick and choose, as so much of the bible has parallels, types, and shadows- it all backs each other up, so to speak, and if you do that, you will miss something important (depending on what you are dismissing) and vital, not to mention, FASCINATING. I really really encourage you to, like I said, seek God with an open heart, ask Him to open up your understanding. I am not saying that you are DUMB, or something, but many things will not be understood without Him doing that. It will seem like Greek, you know? Hey, what the heck, what do you have to lose, you know?

[la rubia]

Originally posted by wickwoman


Your heaven, maybe, however, mine won't be heaven if everyone - most especially Aquamullier - isn't there. Until you've really loved a homosexual, your opinion is not valid. Why? Because if I, a human being, can love someone so much, just think how much more God can.
I, too, have a few homosexuals in my life whom I love very much.

[la rubia]

Originally posted by aquamulier
Someone do me a huge favor and answer this for me because I've always wanted to know:
How do people justify condemning homosexuality but condoning the consumption of shellfish & pork, the wearing of garments of two kinds of cloth, planting a field with two kinds of seed, cutting off sideburns, etc.
Same book. Same Bible. Anyone game?
DARN! O2bewise is not on right now... he is really good at explaining things like this- I've learned a lot from him. He posted an example and an explaination to something similar to this in your aunt's thread, and it was awesome. Many things in the Old Testament are "types and shadows" of what was to come (through Christ). So, many things that you will read about in the OT that are physical, in the NT, there is the same thing, only SPIRITUAL. Hmph. I don't do a very good job, so maybe I'll send O2bewise a link to come and explain it.

[Z Man]

Why do I have a feeling that I'm being ignored here? AQUA!!!!! IS HOMOSEXUALITY WRONG? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[o2bwise]

Hi La Rubia,

You're too kind!:)

How do people justify condemning homosexuality but condoning the consumption of shellfish & pork, the wearing of garments of two kinds of cloth, planting a field with two kinds of seed, cutting off sideburns, etc.

Same book. Same Bible. Anyone game?

Well, I am a believer in the admonition to "Let each man be convicted in his own mind." For example, it is written that one is not to light a fire on the Sabbath.

Well, I happen to believe that the Sabbath is a prophecy of God purifying a remnant after 6000 years. Prophetically, there is then, after the Second Coming, a millenium of rest.

In the last days, God's people will be purged by fire. THAT is when the fire comes. If one waits until the Sabbath, he waited too long.

Regarding mixing two fabrics, I would suggest that the lesson is that there is only one robe which one can wear, the robe of Christ's righteousness. It is loomed by Him alone. To me, the spiritual implications of weaving two different fabrics together is probably a way of suggesting that the valid Christian experience is to have character woven by God ALONE. (We cannot contribute.)

So, in seeing a more spiritual message, I might be inclined to conclude that the totally physical application really is not the thing, at all. (Am I concerned about combining wool and cotton?)

To me, sometimes it's obvious. I mean...I am a Sabbathkeeper, but I have no problem with lighting a literal fire on the seventh day.

So, anyway, my sense is to let each man be convicted in his own mind.

Now, regarding health, I think those are no-brainers, personally. The unclean foods are well-known to not be very healthy. I think we are admonished to not partake.

Regarding admonitions against homosexuality, well, that strikes so foundational in terms of being a very particular kind of behavior, that it seems obvious to me, that it is not talking about something on a spiritual plane like lighting a fire on the Sabbath is. I think it's clear. I think the power of silence is compelling. Do we have a single example, in scripture, of a gay couple that clearly has God's blessing where their "coupling" is concerned?

This is a tough subject to discuss, I think, mainly because I am not in the camp that it is always "the season" for a homosexual to be told his or her homosexuality is "sin." But, the forum is public and has a plurality of people and having this get mentioned is inevitable.

So...I discuss from the context that this facet of the dialogue is inevitable, but I try to have a softer, more compassionate tone than I feel like I see in others.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[o2bwise]

Hi goose,

Heaven will not be tolerant of homosexuals.

Heaven will not be tolerant of anyone who is not sinlessly perfect.

[Goose]

Originally posted by o2bwise
Hi goose,



Heaven will not be tolerant of anyone who is not sinlessly perfect. Agreed. That's why we have atonement. But that's something that we have to accept.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by PureX

Christianity has traditinally been one of the most violent and oppressive ideologies in Earth. The bible itself is full of all manor of violence...

Judging by your avatar PureX, you'd make a perfect Christian. :D

[o2bwise]

Hey Z Man,

Judging by your avatar PureX, you'd make a perfect Christian.

LOL!!!


I did a few double takes on that avatar. Kind of like, "Dang! How many objects got pierced in that there face anyhow???


Anyway, thanks for giving me a good laugh!

[Knight]

Originally posted by quasi
flipper- I did read the boot to the head thread and quite frankly I'm a little confused. I thought Christianity was supposed to be a loving and accepting religion. I just started reading this thread and I had to laugh when I read the above comment.

Since when does "love" equate to acceptence of sin?

The Bible is a pretty thick book, and it has a common theme throughout.... repent and humble yourself before God.

True love would have little meaning if love were not applied in a righteous way.

Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. - Romans 12:9

[o2bwise]

Love does not equate to acceptance of sin, BUT, God does not show anyone all of himself as in a moment.

It would be a crushing load.

We look into the mirror gradually, as we must.

Who is to say exactly what sin one is to reveal to another, at what point in time?

Can you answer that for me, Knight? Biblically?

Tony (o2)

[Goose]

Reveal sin to one another?

[Knight]

Originally posted by o2bwise
Love does not equate to acceptance of sin, BUT, God does not show anyone all of himself as in a moment.

It would be a crushing load.

We look into the mirror gradually, as we must.

Who is to say exactly what sin one is to reveal to another, at what point in time?

Can you answer that for me, Knight? Biblically?

Tony (o2) Please rephrase your question.... I apologize for my ignorance but I simply cannot understand what your asking.

[Flipper]

Hey, Knight, Goose, when are you going to get onto the namecalling? I thought that was a valuable ministering tool.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Flipper
Hey, Knight, Goose, when are you going to get onto the namecalling? I thought that was a valuable ministering tool. I haven't called you a fool yet today? :D

[Z Man]

Originally posted by o2bwise
Hey Z Man,
thanks for giving me a good laugh!

Hehe, you're welcome o2bwise. :thumb:

[Z Man]

Hey Knight,

How come you threatened to ban me from TheologyOnline for posting one letter with 3 astericks behind it, but you didn't threaten PureX for his profanity? Heck, why not just ban him for his offensive avatar, not to mention Jefferson's? Those pictures do more harm than a letter with 3 astericks behind it...

[Flipper]

Knight:

I haven't called you a fool yet today?

What's that you say? "Cluck cluck cluck"?

:D

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man
Hey Knight,

How come you threatened to ban me from TheologyOnline for posting one letter with 3 astericks behind it, but you didn't threaten PureX for his profanity? Heck, why not just ban him for his offensive avatar, not to mention Jefferson's? Those pictures do more harm than a letter with 3 astericks behind it... I try to catch profane postings as I see them. Maybe I missed Purex's? Although I will say... your post was especially profane.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Flipper
Knight:



What's that you say? "Cluck cluck cluck"?

:D Ok... Ok... you talked me into it..... Flipper... your a fool.

There!

Feel better now? :D

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight
I try to catch profane postings as I see them. Maybe I missed Purex's? Although I will say... your post was especially profane.

Actually, I thought it went well with the title of the thread. It made sense... :D

Besides, you don't find PureX's or Jefferson's avatar profane/offensive? I mean, my post was a little humorous, but these pictures are definitly not... :nono:

[Poly]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Poly:

Do you really believe anyone takes your message of hate seriously?
Yes
You're afraid of your own shadow. How scary it must be running around with nothing to guide you but that little black book.
Actually, just the opposite. It's a rather scary thought to think of not having it to guide me.
You don't even have your own common sense to guide you because it's evil.
I don't confuse common sense with giving in to what the flesh wants to do and then conveniently saying an "inner voice" said it was ok so it must be God.
My inner voice tells me all sorts of very logical and good things.
Then too bad you don't listen to it.
And yes, sometimes I do have a thought that's not particularly good, but, being the sane person that I am, I know the difference between what is good for me and others and what is bad.
You think you know the difference but as long as you condone homosexuality and spit in the face of Christ don't even pretend to claim know the difference.
You seem to believe that common sense wasn't invented until Moses wrote Genesis. People were actually capable of functioning hundreds of years before the first copy of the Bible was released
You don't say? Is that why Cain knew it was wrong to kill Abel before God ever gave us the law telling us it was wrong?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

Actually, I thought it went well with the title of the thread. It made sense... :D

Besides, you don't find PureX's or Jefferson's avatar profane/offensive? I mean, my post was a little humorous, but these pictures are definitly not... :nono: What is profane about PureX's avatar?

Now as far as Jefferson's avatar goes.....

Is it offensive?

Yes, it is offensive.

I am sure I speak for Jefferson when I say neither one of us wish images like his avatar existed.

Jeremiah 19:5 they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind,

[Poly]

Originally posted by la rubia

Certainly, there is nothing wrong with knowing something in your spirit, but as I have said before, you have to be careful whose "little voice" you are listening to.

Very well said, La Rubia. You hit the nail on the head. I don't deny we have an "inner voice". This is the Holy Spirit that guides us. But those that hate God, most assuredly, are not listening to Him.

[Poly]

Originally posted by Knight
What is profane about PureX's avatar?

Now as far as Jefferson's avatar goes.....

Is it offensive?

Yes, it is offensive.

I am sure I speak for Jefferson when I say neither one of us wish images like his avatar existed.


I'm so incredibly offended over Jefferson's avatar that I'm deeply appreciative that he chose it.

[PureX]

Profanity? What profanity?

And what's wrong with this avatar? It's a magnificent photo!

[Z Man]

My apologies PureX. It wasn't you who had profanity in their post, it was Eireann; "A Thought On War", 4th page.

[wickwoman]

Dear Poly:

"In the still mind, in the depths of meditation, the Self reveals itself. Beholding the Self by means of the Self, an aspirant knows the joy and peace of complete fulfillment. Having attained that abiding joy beyond the senses, revealed in the stilled mind, he never swerves from the eternal truth. He desires nothing else, and cannot be shaken by the heaviest burden of sorrow."

-Bhagavad Gita 6:19-22

[wickwoman]

Dear LaRubia:

You are so full of energy and zeal. It's refreshing. I'm guessing you're a new Christian or maybe you are physically young. Aries energy is running high this time of year with the beginning of the astological year.

Not, to discourage you, but I would like to respond to your suggestion that I read and study the Bible, that was you, wasn't it?

Anyway, I've read, studied alone, studied in groups, gone to prayer meetings, studied correspondence Bible courses, I even joined Weigh Down Workshop - a Christian weight loss program.

I was totally emersed in that way of life. It was wonderful for a time, however, when forced to step out of that mindset for just a moment, I was able to see how truly constricting, suffocating, and fearful it really is. Everyone goes through it, it's a part of maturing spiritually. I would never give up the years I was devoted to Christianity, however, I would never go back. Since I opened my eyes, my spiritual growth has been unbelievable. I had to fight overwhelming fears of eternal damnation and, sometimes, I still do. But, in the end, I know God is still guiding and directing my life, your life, Aquamullier's life, all of our lives, even Polycarpadvao (though sometimes it's hard to recognize).

You see, my stardards for a God are much higher than your standard run of the mill Christian. When my God says he/she is loving - I really expect him/her to be loving. Just apply standard human parent behavior to God and you would realize that he/she would never torture any of his/her children for all eternity. What is punishment when there is no opportunity for rehabilitation?

When my God says he/she is all powerful, that means that nothing exists outside of God's will - in other words Satan does not exist. It's ridiculous to think that an all powerful God would allow such an evil creature to roam about the earth corrupting and snaring hapless human beings, even children.

When my God says he/she wills that "none should perish" that means none will.

[PureX]

''When they lose their sense of awe, people turn to religion. When they can no longer trust themselves, they have to depend on authorities. Therefor, the Master steps back so that people won't be confused. He teaches without teaching, so that people will have nothing to learn.'' - from the Tao Te Ching

"The Tao gives birth to all things, nourishes them, maintains them, cares for them, comforts them, protects them, takes them back to itself; creating without possessing, acting without expecting, guiding without interfering. That is why love of the Tao is in the very nature of things." - from the Tao Te Ching

"A person who realizes the particular evil of his time and finds that it overwhelms him, dives deep into his own heart for inspiration, and when he finds it, he presents it to others." - Ghandi
____

"The problem: God has revealed Himself to men in Christ, but He has revealed Himself first of all as love."

"Absolute truth is then grasped as love: therefor not in such a way that it excludes love in certain limited situations. Only he who loves can be sure he is still in contact with the truth, which is in fact too absolute to be grasped by his mind. Hence, he who holds to the gospel truth is afraid that he may lose the truth by a failure of love, not by a failure of knowledge. In that case he is humble, and therefore he is wise."

"But knowledge expands a man like a balloon, and gives him a precarious wholeness in which he thinks that he holds in himself all the dimensions of the truth the totality of which is denied to others. It then becomes his duty, he thinks, by virtue of his superior knowledge, to punish those who do not share his truth. How can he "love" others, he thinks, except by imposing on them the truth which they would otherwise insult and neglect? This is the temptation."
- Thomas Merton

[quasi]

purex you're my hero, and picture is great

[wickwoman]

Purex:

I haven't read the Tao te Ching lately, I must look at it again. This is exactly what I've been trying to get across, though not as eloquently and easily understood.

[la rubia]

Hey, wickwoman!
Thanks for being so kind in your post. The one thing that confused me a bit was when you said this:
"When my God says he/she is all powerful, that means that nothing exists outside of God's will - in other words Satan does not exist. It's ridiculous to think that an all powerful God would allow such an evil creature to roam about the earth corrupting and snaring hapless human beings, even children."
So that I can better understand what you are saying, can I ask, that if you believe that Satan does not exist (or a source of evil), and you stress so strongly God's will, then how do you account for all of the terrible things that happen to people every day? Like children being raped and killed, people dying of starvation, etc. Are you saying that it's God's will that things like this should happen?

[wickwoman]

Dear LaRubia:

I understand why it would be hard for you to believe that a loving God allowed such atrocities. And, on the surface, these terrible events seem futile.

But if you look at it from my perspective you will see this: If God allows Satan to run amuck all over the world tormenting hapless human beings, then he/she isn't so good anyway. Attributing these events to an outside source is just kidding yourself.

I believe that the terrible things that happen to people are the refining fires that bring forth the pure gold. If the end result is pure gold then why would we call the fires evil?

[la rubia]

"I believe that the terrible things that happen to people are the refining fires that bring forth the pure gold. If the end result is pure gold then why would we call the fires evil?"

Now, this part, I can see in certain situations- but I have a hard time imagining how a little child tortured and killed could be a "refining fire". It actually seems more loving to me that Satan, along with the freewill of people would be the cause, and that God would be a redeemer, a shelter, etc. than a God who causes everything.

[la rubia]

And what about people who hate God? People who totally HATE him? Is that his will, also.. some sort of refining fire? I'm not getting it, wick.

[Goose]

Originally posted by aquamulier
Uh, because I do believe in the Bible and in Christ... "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." - James 2:19

[o2bwise]

There is a rationale for God being "love" and for the existence of Satan.

It requires the idea that love is a drawing and not a compelling force.

Philemon 8-10,14
8 Therefore, though I might be very bold in Christ to command you what is fitting, 9 yet for love's sake I rather appeal to you--being such a one as Paul, the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ-- 10 I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten while in my chains,

14 But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but voluntary.


God created beings with intelligence. Wrapped up in intelligence itself is a certain degree of autonomy, sovereignty.

This allows for the possibility that intelligent beings could actually choose another path, than God.

Regarding Satan, it is written:

Ezekiel 28:15-17
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


OK, so now there's this fallen being. Supposing that sin IS death and the only reason any sinner is alive is due in part to the idea that God veils the very "thing" which exposes sin, why would God allow Satan to go on living?

Why not just let him be consumed?

Consider what would have happened in the heavenly host. Lucifer sins, God does not provide a veil, and he perishes. What of the rest of the angelic host?

Host: Where's Lucifer?

God: He's dead.

Host: What's that?

God: (explains)

Host: How did Lucifer die?

God: Sin destroyed him.

Host: What's that?

and on and on and on.

The angelic host, I suggest, would have served God out of FEAR. The issues around concepts like sin and righteousness, and justice would not have been clear.

I suggest that once those issues ARE clear, God will then unveil His glory for all to see and then Satan will be consumed.


God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[aquamulier]

Sorry Z Man, I wasn't ignoring you. I just have school and work so I can't be on here ALL THE TIME. I do not believe that homosexuality is wrong. I believe that in the time when the law was written, it made sense because of the number of people on the earth. I mean, think about it...the earth was hardly populated. If same sex couples were getting it on, there would be major reproductive problems. Also though, I don't believe that people back then were BORN homosexual, again because of the population. But now, because of overpopulation being in our near future, genetics is trying to save the planet by producing homosexual human beings. If you think about it, it's not a completely illogical conclution, although I'm sure SOMEONE out there will say so...

[aquamulier]

Bad news Goose...I'm NOT a demon and I'm NOT afraid of God. Sorry.

[Goose]

Originally posted by aquamulier
Bad news Goose...I'm NOT a demon and I'm NOT afraid of God. Sorry. I didn't call you a demon. I put you in category with them. You're going to burn and hurt the people you love.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by aquamulier
I do not believe that homosexuality is wrong.

Then no wonder you couldn't get help over it. Until you admit it's wrong, you will always be a rebel in your heart...

[aquamulier]

Why would I have even bothered trying to get over it if I didn't once upon a time (long ago in a galaxy far far away) believe it was wrong? Think about it....

[dizziely]

Some one told me I should go to this link and possibly post a responce. I do not wish to change anyones veiws nor do I expect people who oppose my beliefs to condemn me. See the only thing I truly believe is that my relationship with god is mine. And all I see is people attacking and judging a person I have a loving and caring relationship with. I have spent the time to know her and love her. And above all I try and understand it is not my job or place to judge her or her actions, I know it is extremely easy for me to fall into those very real human characteristcs of judging others. So I find comfort in the fact that it is not my responcibility to tell her she is wrong or to open myself up to others telling my I am wrong. My relationship with god is just that his and mine. It is not for any one to look into my life, my actions, or my sins and judge my choices or hers. Yes I will live my life, I will love, I will sin, and I will face my decisions in one way or another. Whether it be infront of God, or in the moment I face whether or not I have taken every second possible and loved enough, cryed enough, laughed enough or worshiped enough. But no one on this earth will be able to determine any of these things. So please live your lives and let me live mine, and only be judged by the person you worship.

[GODisLUV]

We shouldn't judge. God loves everyone and everyone has their own personal relationship with God and deep down, they love God and his commandments too. The commandments are in our hearts and we all should follow our hearts. We're freed from the law! We can do anything as long as we believe in God!

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by la rubia
"I believe that the terrible things that happen to people are the refining fires that bring forth the pure gold. If the end result is pure gold then why would we call the fires evil?"

Now, this part, I can see in certain situations- but I have a hard time imagining how a little child tortured and killed could be a "refining fire". It actually seems more loving to me that Satan, along with the freewill of people would be the cause, and that God would be a redeemer, a shelter, etc. than a God who causes everything.

How does the free will of the child come into play when a four year old is kidnapped, raped and killed? And how is it that God refuses to help this child unless her parents know to pray for her rescue? Why does God allow Satan to harm the helpless ones when God is all powerful and could stop him with a flick of his/her little finger? Why do children in India have to starve to death or die of diseases that haven't been in the states for fifty years because their God is named Brahman and ours is named Jehovah?

My life is wonderful and I am very fortunate and happy. Do you think that I attribute this to God? If I did, then I would be saying that all the poor and unhappy people in the world aren't as good as me or that God doesn't like them as much as he/she likes me. The truth of the matter is, we have all been poor, desolate, and sad. We will all be happy, rich and blessed. Everyone travels through hard times in their spiritual journey. Everyone also reaches a time in their spiritual evoluation when they realize how truly wonderful this world and its creator is. It is a part of the growth process.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by aquamulier
Why would I have even bothered trying to get over it if I didn't once upon a time (long ago in a galaxy far far away) believe it was wrong? Think about it....

Oh, I never said you didn't think it was wrong: I know that you know deep down, homosexuality is wrong. I just wanted you to admit it. If you can't admit it and surrender to your sins, then you will always be at war with God. But you've gone so far into this that you've been lying to yourself the whole time, telling yourself that homosexuality is ok. You know it's wrong, but you love it, and you don't want to part your lifestyle. So, to overcome the guilt and shame of rebelling against God, you've lied to yourself, making homosexuality ok in your eyes. That's sad, and you need help.

[aquamulier]

No Z Man, I USED TO think it was wrong. That's why I subjected myself to the hell of church therapy. I don't think it's wrong now. If I did I wouldn't do it. I still be trying to get "deprogrammed" or some other such nonsense.

[aquamulier]

Thank you GOD isLOVE!!! That's exactly what I've been trying to say

[aquamulier]

Goose:

You wish.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by aquamulier
No Z Man, I USED TO think it was wrong. That's why I subjected myself to the hell of church therapy. I don't think it's wrong now. If I did I wouldn't do it. I still be trying to get "deprogrammed" or some other such nonsense.

Well Aqua, just so you'll know, homosexuality is wrong. Not because I say so, but because God says so. IMHO, I don't believe God has saved you, until you can admit that sinning is wrong. And you'll find a lot of people saying that to you if you keep up the "being-gay-is-ok" attitude. If you were a Christian, you'd heed your fellow brothers and sisters in Christs' warnings that homosexuality is wrong. Heck, I think you'd realize that yourself. But you prefer to live in your own world, by your own rules...

:nono:

[PureX]

Zman posts: "Well Aqua, just so you'll know, homosexuality is wrong. Not because I say so, but because God says so."

But it's you who says that God says so.

Using the bible to excuse your own judgmentalism doesn't work. Claiming God wrote it doesn't excuse you from claiming God wrote it. Nor does it excuse your choice of what you say it means.

[aquamulier]

Z MAn:
I find it amusing how you post on a forum and everyone decides they know you. You know nothing about my walk with God, and you never will. It's MY personal relationship with him and is not effected in the slightest by what you think you know about it. Love is never wrong and if you plan on convincing me otherwise you'd better pack a lunch, cuz you're gonna be here for a while.

-------------------------------------

"We have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."

"Love is the fulfillment of the law."

[Goose]

Originally posted by PureX
Zman posts: "Well Aqua, just so you'll know, homosexuality is wrong. Not because I say so, but because God says so."

But it's you who says that God says so.

Using the bible to excuse your own judgmentalism doesn't work. Claiming God wrote it doesn't excuse you from claiming God wrote it. Nor does it excuse your choice of what you say it means. The fact that Aqua "believes" in the Word of God, then Z does have a logical argument. Your response would only work with someone who doesn't believe the Bible as the Word of God.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Z Man


Oh, I never said you didn't think it was wrong: I know that you know deep down, homosexuality is wrong. I just wanted you to admit it. If you can't admit it and surrender to your sins, then you will always be at war with God. But you've gone so far into this that you've been lying to yourself the whole time, telling yourself that homosexuality is ok. You know it's wrong, but you love it, and you don't want to part your lifestyle. So, to overcome the guilt and shame of rebelling against God, you've lied to yourself, making homosexuality ok in your eyes. That's sad, and you need help.

Dear Zman:

If you believe the gospels are truly an account of what Jesus said, he used the word "judge" 24 times. He used the word "love" 75 times.

I assume you consider yourself a follower of Christ so based on the above information, how to you justify your judgmental, bigoted, and self-righteous attitude and lifestyle?

Does it seem like I've made a rash judgment of you? Do you think I don't know you well enough to decide something like that about you? Well, there's a taste of your own medicine.

[Goose]

"Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good" - Romans 12:9

Z just doesn't want to love like a hypocrite. Good job Z!

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Goose
"Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good" - Romans 12:9

Z just doesn't want to love like a hypocrite. Good job Z!

Maybe neither you nor Z want to love at all.

[Goose]

Originally posted by wickwoman


Maybe neither you nor Z want to love at all. Again. What I think Z and I are trying to say, is that you don't know what true love is.

[o2bwise]

Hi PureX,

Using the bible to excuse your own judgmentalism doesn't work. Claiming God wrote it doesn't excuse you from claiming God wrote it. Nor does it excuse your choice of what you say it means.

Aren't you assigning motive to Zman?

What if Zman:
1. Honestly believes the Bible is God's word (and thus claims"God wrote it)?

2. Honestly believes the Bible is clear with respect to homosexuality?

If 1 and 2 are both true, how then does this necessitate a spirit of judgmentalism?

For example, I honestly believe 1 is true and I believe God would that His faithful rested in a certain way from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

I truly believe that.

Were I to share this with a Sundaykeeping person, am I automatically "guilty of judgmentalism?"

The irony I see here, PureX, is that you are judging ZMan's heart! And very possibly wrongly.

Unless you have been given a vision, you do not know WHAT actuates why he believes as he does regarding homosexuality.

Take Care,

Tony (o2)

[wickwoman]

Dear O2BWise:

You see, I believe with equal conviction what God has revealed to me in my heart, that is, that there is no Hell, no devil. Why should any of us take Zman's personal convictions for our own any more than you should believe what I know God has revealed to me. The key here is, it is a personal matter, and God will reveal himself/herself to each of us individually.

[PureX]

o2bwise,

What Zman honestly believes (and I presume he does honestly believe what he posts) is well and good. But he was posting those beliefs as though they were truths that aqua (and anyone else) must accept because they are his truth. But beliefs about what is true are not truths themselves, they are still only beliefs. Just because one "truly" believes does not mean that what they truly believe is actually true.

There is a lot of confusion about this among Christians because all too often, the pretense that what Christians believe is automatically true because they believe it is true, is promoted as "faith". Therefor, anyone who refuses to go along with it is an "unbeliever" (which is true) and not a Christian (which is not true). Pretending that our beliefs are truths is not faith. It's just pretense. And it's an arrogant pretense at that, as it denies the beliefs of everyone else simply because they are someone else.

This is what it appeared to me that Zman was doing to aqua: denying the validity of her beliefs simply because they were not his own. We are all free to believe as we see fit, but our belief alone is not a reasonable argument for dismissing someone else's. To do so is to dismiss them as an equally viable and intelligent human being.

What's at issue here is not what Zman believes, but how he presents his beliefs to others. It is understood that he believes what he posts, it is not understood that it is true simply because he believes it. When he presents his beliefs as though it should be understood that they are true, he places himself (through this presumption) above everyone else.

I am not passing judgment on Zman except to presume that he believes what he posts. I am passing judgment on the presentation of those beliefs, and on his presumption of their truthfulness.

[o2bwise]

Dear wickwoman,

That is a nice greeting!:)

You see, I believe with equal conviction what God has revealed to me in my heart, that is, that there is no Hell, no devil.

Say, wick, this is long, but I sure hope you read it! I did a quick Bible study!

My understanding is that some can and will choose to reject love fully and (thus) the purity of love itself will consume them. I believe "hell" is a temporary abode. It is the experience of the lost when in the midst of the fire of God's love. It is temporary because the lost will ultimately cease to exist.

This is the same place that will be bliss for the saved.


Isaiah 33:14-15
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil:


Wow, the righteous dwell in the everlasting burnings!


Song of Solomon 8:6-7
6 The Shulamite to Her Beloved Set me as a seal upon your heart, As a seal upon your arm; For love is as strong as death, Jealousy as cruel as the grave; Its flames are flames of fire, A most vehement flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love, Nor can the floods drown it. If a man would give for love All the wealth of his house, It would be utterly despised.


What is the fire that one can never quench (put out)? It is God's love!


Matthew 13:42-43
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


Hmmmm, lost cast into a furnace of fire and righteous shine forth as the sun.

Could it be the same fire? The fire that is God's love?


Yes, for the righteous were willing to behold this fire progressively, the lost refused its purging work.


Psalm 12:6
6 The words of the Lord are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times.


There's that furnace again.


James 1:21-25
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.


It's all the same thing, wickwoman. It is love that fully exposes its contrast, evil. If one has allowed God to progressively show him his love, he can survive the final unveiling, should he be part of the remnant at the end of time, who will be the recipient of just that.

If one is an implacable enemy of love, God will JUDGE Him by the word. In other words, an unveiled revelation of His love will expose to the person, simply who he is.


John 12:48
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.


It is the word that judges for the word reveals the heart and if one is lost, his own heart will condemn him - but, only if his heart is revealed to him (by the word).


1 Corinthians 4:5
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.



Why should any of us take Zman's personal convictions for our own any more than you should believe what I know God has revealed to me. The key here is, it is a personal matter, and God will reveal himself/herself to each of us individually.

AMEN!!! :)

What you wrote, above, is something I have said so many times before! For you to accept ANY MAN'S CONVICTION in place of your own, would be idolatry!

But, it is good for all of us to have teachable hearts (and I am not suggesting you do not!).

No, I was not suggesting you accept ZMan's, or anyone else's convictions on ANY matter, for your own.


God Bless Ya, Sis...

Tony (o2)

[Poly]

Originally posted by GODisLUV
We shouldn't judge. God loves everyone and everyone has their own personal relationship with God and deep down, they love God and his commandments too. The commandments are in our hearts and we all should follow our hearts. We're freed from the law! We can do anything as long as we believe in God!
Hasn't somebody banned you already?:rolleyes:

[o2bwise]

Hi PureX,

I thought you reply was both highly thoughtful and intelligent, but I do disagree with a very basic assertion.


Pretending that our beliefs are truths is not faith. It's just pretense. And it's an arrogant pretense at that, as it denies the beliefs of everyone else simply because they are someone else.

I freely acknowledge my belief in the Bible as a standard and I also acknowledge that, even so, what I believe it means on some matter and the idea of its being a standard, are two different things.


Hebrews 8:10-11
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.


I need not insist I am such a person as is described here. However, what of such a person? A person who knows the Lord so well that there is no more need for teachers?

Is such a person pretending if he asserts that something is truth. or is it just pretense?

Do you assert that your belief in this matter, i.e. anyone who states that something he believes is true, must be pretense, is true?

Does not your own assertion testify against you? Is not your assertion, by your very own testimony, pretense? How could it not be?


I assert that it is possible to know God fully enough such that what one knows IS truth and the conviction one has that it is truth NEED NOT BE PRETENDING OR PRETENSE. Nothing in your assertions defeats this assertion as necessarily erroneous.


When Jesus walked as a man, He looked just like any other man. Moreover, He walked by faith. (I cannot possibly overemphasize this point - He walked BY FAITH in the way He bids we walk, thus His convictions can become our own and His manner, our own.) And yet, He often did what you would require to have been "pretense." So did John the baptist and all the prophets for that matter.

Jesus says to Nicodemus, "You must be born again" and this is like a stake driven into his heart. He just lays the ax to the root. Nicodemus parleys a little. Jesus lays it in again, "You MUST be born again." This isn't merely "pretense," this is something Jesus KNOWS.

He speaks to the Samaritan woman at the well. She goes off on some tangent about where the Samaritans worship. Jesus says:

John 4:21-23
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.


Just pretense, PureX?

Is it possible that one sometimes can KNOW?


We are all free to believe as we see fit, but our belief alone is not a reasonable argument for dismissing someone else's. To do so is to dismiss them as an equally viable and intelligent human being.

And thus it follows, if I accept your assertion (pretense?) that Jesus dismissed the woman at the well as an equally viable and intelligent human being.

No, that is simply false reasoning. One can assert that something is true, such assertion may be in conflict with what the recipient of that assertion believes, and yet it need not be that the person is dismissing that recipient.


When he presents his beliefs as though it should be understood that they are true, he places himself (through this presumption) above everyone else.

Jesus Christ presented His beliefs as though they were true, but instead of seeking the highest place...

Philippians 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.


Again, you state an assertion that is obviously false - if one believes in the Bible for Jesus made the very same kind of assertions - all the while He sought the LOWEST place, rather than the highest.

You state something as necessarily being arrogance and yet Christ, who walked by faith, did the very same thing.

He was far from arrogant.

I believe what you are asserting CAN be true, but they are not universal truths. Or to put another way, one person may assert something believed is true and it may be pretense. Another person may do the same and it may not be pretense. One may be actuated from an arrogant heart. The same may be actuated from a heart willing to lay his life for the recipient of such an assertion.

Man looks on the outward act, God looks on the heart.

You have testified against yourself with the very assertion you made. It was all pretense.

For it was not true.


Finally, I will not broach into what was ZMan's spirit. No vision here. So, I will leave any "presentation" assessments alone.


God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[la rubia]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wickwoman


How does the free will of the child come into play when a four year old is kidnapped, raped and killed?"
RUBIA: "free will" comes to play for the PREDATOR of that child... how would a God WILL all of that to happen to a child, why would He WILL an adult to do something like that- some sort of "refining fire" for him? You guys say that God loves everybody, etc. but would you make someone you love do something so horrible, and if you loved a little 4 year old girl, would you MAKE someone do something so dispicable to her? What kind of love would THAT be?
You are the one who has stated that EVERYTHING happens as a result of God's will- and no offense, but your idea of god sounds very inconsistent with what you have previously stated in your responses defending your neice. He doesn't seem very loving by willing and even doing and causing horrible atrocities.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And how is it that God refuses to help this child unless her parents know to pray for her rescue?
RUBIA: Unless her parents know how to pray for their rescue? Who's been telling you that? You and I both know that that's silly, and untrue.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why does God allow Satan to harm the helpless ones when God is all powerful and could stop him with a flick of his/her little finger? Why do children in India have to starve to death or die of diseases that haven't been in the states for fifty years because their God is named Brahman and ours is named Jehovah?

RUBIA: My question to you is: why would God himself WILL this, and carry it out himself, if He is all love like you say?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My life is wonderful and I am very fortunate and happy. Do you think that I attribute this to God?

RUBIA: Yes, I was kind of thinking so, based on many of your posts attributing things to God's will. Isn't He willing you to be fortunate and happy? Isn't He willing your niece to be gay, proud of it, and loves it? With this last statement, you have just said the opposite, and it's confusing me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I did, then I would be saying that all the poor and unhappy people in the world aren't as good as me or that God doesn't like them as much as he/she likes me.

RUBIA: Actually, it makes more sense, and is more consistent to see the reality that many people have made the choice to oppress their people, and let them die of starvation and suffer, while they live the high life. It has nothing to do with Him "liking" you more than them- and as a matter of fact, to believe (as you have said that you do) that God wills everything, you are in essence saying that God IS in fact, showing you more love by making you fortunate, and others not. At the same time, believing that way, as you have said that you do, you can even take it a step further (with your "refining fires" statement), and say that God actually has shown THEM more favor in making them suffer
as it will be a refining fire, and make them better people in the end.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The truth of the matter is, we have all been poor, desolate, and sad. Everyone travels through hard times in their spiritual journey.

RUBIA: You are right.. we all have suffered through various things.... as a result of our poor choices, or the awful decisions and actions of others, which many times are influenced by satan.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone also reaches a time in their spiritual evoluation when they realize how truly wonderful this world and its creator is. It is a part of the growth process.
RUBIA: Everyone??? Certainly not everyone will realize this. Some people refuse to until the day that they die.
After just mentioning the awful things that go on in this world, and claiming that it's God's will, then turning around and saying it's NOT God's will, and then calling this world and it's creator wonderful (which the world was quite wonderful before the fall- and even today, nature, etc. IS quite magnificent, as is God), I am sensing from you that you've got some questioning inside towards God- many on a philisophical level, that are not getting resolved. I understand what you mean when you "pick and choose" what is true with the things that you read (although I don't do the same with the bible), but you have put together a new age "hodge-podge" way of belief that is very inconsistent, and sometimes even contradictory. It takes more stretching and more labor to be true to these beliefs, wickwoman, and they make very little sense, as they are, like I said, inconsistent and contradictory.
I understand that you should not allow yourself to be spoon-fed other christians' beliefs, either, as many of them are wrong (denominations teachings), without checking the bible and getting guidance from God, but there comes a time when you are going to have to sort all of this stuff out and see for yourself, that making your own collage of different ways of believing, and trying to roll them all into one, while giving you a little peace inside, and an easy way to just accept everything for how it is, will leave you unsatisied later, and you will not grow, for how can you grow trying to juggle contradictions?
My humble advice to you would be to stop laboring so hard, and give it all up to God- and accept His word, and let Him open up your understanding, and He will put all of these puzzle pieces together for you. Relying on an inside voice, while temporarily making you feel good, is teaching you contradictions and inconsistencies at the same time, and God just isn't that capricious, wickwoman. He's a rock- what kind of a rock is not solid and consistent?
I hope I didn't get rude or offend you in this post- I really didn't mean it that way, if I did. It's hard sometimes to get your point across over the internet, as you cannot hear the tone in my voice, or see my body language, but I really wasn't meaning to have a harsh tone.


WOW.:shocked: Looking back over this post.... my beliefs are beginning to have OV tendencies.:confused:
Just kidding, you guys.:eek:

[Z Man]

Whoa! Sorry, didn't mean to make such a commotion! :D

Look, I'm not judging anybody. Aqua said she is a Christian: great. She's gay: so what. She says being gay is ok; Christian beliefs say otherwise. Now, if she really is a Christian, and she believes in what the Bible says about our God, then she would admit that homosexuality is wrong. She can't; therefore, there's a problem. That's all I wanted to bring attention to.

I could care less if she was gay or whatever. If this was a post about her having problems lying, I would have the same feelings. I'm not judging her by saying that she can't be a Christian and gay at the same time. I'm sure there are plenty of homosexual Christians out there. But being a homosexual isn't the point. The point is, she won't admit that this sin is wrong. What if Charles Manson was to recieve God's saving grace; would it be alright for him to still kill? Could he say, "But killing is ok. I have my own personal relationship with God, and that's between me and Him. Stop judging me for killing people."

I believe that any homosexual that was saved by God will truely try to eliminate this sin in their lives, for it would be uncomfortable for a Christian to live with sin in their life and have a relationship with God. Some peole have problems with porno, others swearing, or drugs. If God saves that individual, yes, it may be a while before they are set free completely from a recurring sin, but they will at least hold a desire to get rid of it from their lives. If Aqua feels no guilt or shame or pressure from God to get rid of this sin in her life, one has to question if she really believes in the same God as the rest of us Christians...

Thanks Goose and O2Bwise for looking out for me.... :thumb:

[Z Man]

La Rubia,

Has anyone ever told you that you talk too much? :) ;) :p

[PureX]

o2bwise,

That's a very long post. But the crux of it seems to be that you believe it's reasonable for someone who believes something to be true to present it as the truth to others, expecting them to accept it as truth simply because it is being presented as such. And you are claiming that if I do not agree with this, then my disagreement itself is a 'PureX-truth' being presented to you in exactly the sam