The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Freak]

As expected we have heretics spreading their destructive doctrines on this forum, namely O2bewise. Mr. O2bewise said the following on September 6th: "Salvation can only come by baptism".

This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Baptism is not a requirement!

One attains eternal life (salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).

Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).

Note no mention of baptism.

Jesus made it clear O2bewise: I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

Again no mention of baptism, apparently to o2bewise, Jesus must have misspoken here.

I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus to come against O2bewise's devilish doctrines. This man degrades our Lord when He speaks against Him by stating baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.

Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

I think for me and my household we will listen to Jesus then o2bewise and his wicked ways.

[o2bfaithful]

:D

[Freak]

O2bewise, please prove me wrong. I would be more than willing to retract my earlier posts.

Is baptism necessary for salvation?

Can one be saved if not baptized in water?

Is baptism a part of the Gospel message?

I'll be looking forward to your response.

[Ian Day]

This previous posting to Rapt is relevant:

Rapt,

You asked a question a while back, which I did not answer at the time.
(Ian: )
Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner, whereby he is given new spiritual life. Certainly baptism is commanded, but it is for the believer, already saved, already with new life from the dead, already quickened. It is the cleansing of the conscience, the application of the blood of the sacrifice, the blood of the covenant, (Heb. 9 & 13) as the Lord's Supper is the partaking of the sacrifice.

Rapt to Ian,
It seems to me that on the one hand, you agree that we are commanded to be baptized, and that it is at that point which one that believes receives the "cleansing of the conscience, the application of the blood of the sacrifice, the blood of the covenant", and "the partaking of the sacrifice", yet on the other hand, you see it as a response to gospel, which one who is "already saved, already with new life from the dead, already quickeded" does.

Don't the many scriptures that say that we are "raised with Christ" through baptism into His death mean anything to you? You're putting the cart before the horse. You can't leave baptism out of the presentation of the gospel any more than you can omit godly living and repentance, and still have the whole gospel. Peter didn't; Paul didn't; not even John the baptist omitted baptism. He didn't have the entire gospel, but he had the preperation of it. Part of believing on the one that should come included repentance and baptism. It STILL includes baptism, and every example we have in scripture when someone believed, they immediately got baptized. So why belittle the command?


Let me ask you: does one (who never heard the whole gospel), who had repented, and professed Jesus as his Lord, remain right with God and "saved" once he realizes that he is commanded to be baptized, if he claims that he is already saved, and therefore sees no need to get baptized? Does he retain his professed "salvation"?
Baptism is understood by evangelical Christians in various ways.
1. "Covenant baptism" equivalent to circ-umcision, therefore applied to babies within the church. The significance is important.
2. "Believers' baptism" administered to new believers as a sign of various spiritual blessings (see above.) Baptism is normally required for church membership. It is not considered essential for salvation, because it is for believers. THe mode of baptism is not important. The significance is important. (My position.)
3. Baptism by immersion required for remission of sins and therefore salvation. A person is considered unsaved until he is baptised. (Rapt's position.)

While I do not hold with infant baptism, I cannot reject it as invalid, because that would mean rejecting as unbelievers many godly Christians alive & dead. Most of those responsible for our translations, commentaries, and the proclaiming of the Gospel down the ages have held this position against the baptist position. Most also accept baptism by sprinkling.

Sprinkling can be understood from Hebrews 9:10 where "various baptisms" refers to Old Covenant sprinklings with water & ashes, water & blood, etc. THe Passover lamb blood was sprinkled on the door posts. With this understanding, Peter's reference to "sprinkled blood" becomes a reference to baptism. (1 Peter 1:2)

When we refer to the LXX we find Naaman baptising himself in the Jordan. (2 Kings 5:14) THe LXX word translated dipped is "ebaptisato" from the Heb. "tabal". Tabal is used a number times to dip, as in dip (LXX "bapsei") & sprinkle, e.g.
Num 19:18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip [it] in the water, and sprinkle [it] upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:
THis is part of the "red heifer" ritual referred to in Hebrew 9. Thanks, http://www.BlueletterBible.org/ for easy access to Hebrew & Greek.

From this I understand a dip and pour/sprinkle method to be valid baptism. John could quite easily have stood in the Jordan and baptised by scooping water in cupped hands to apply to the head of the penitent sinner. It would have made it possible for 3000 people to be baptised on the day of Pentecost without taking over the public water supply. (Courtesy of the Roman & Jewish authorities who had just crucified the one in whose name the baptisms were taking place!)

I don't believe a believer who was not baptised as a baby who learnt about believers' baptism would refuse it. He has the Holy Spirit guiding him. Nor do I think one baptised in infancy & who refused believers' baptism is being disobedient to Christ's command, if he understands "covenant baptism."

[o2bwise]

Hi Freak,

I think the true application of Peter's statement is baptism of the spirit. I never once referred to baptism by water.

I belioeve that salvation is an innate attribute of righteousness itself. Baptism is the fullness of that experience, the experience of being made righteous by grace working through faith.

The work is entirely God's through His Son Jesus Christ.

NOTE: Anyone who has BEGUN to allow that work to take place is POSITIONALLY righteous.

o2bfaithful,

Thanks!:)

Tony (o2 - oops! Might be ambiguous!)

[Freak]

Please answer my questions o2bewise.

Thanks.

[o2bwise]

Hi Freak,

O2bewise, please prove me wrong. I would be more than willing to retract my earlier posts.

It is hard to prove you wrong TO YOUR SATISFACTION because of your poor eyesight.

Whether you retract or not means NOTHING to me. You are only a man, you are not God.

Is baptism necessary for salvation?

Yes. Baptism by the spirit IS SALVATION.

What do you think salvation is, Freak?

Can one be saved if not baptized in water?

Yes.

Is baptism a part of the Gospel message?

Yes.

[Freak]

Since you think baptism is part of the Gospel I stand by all my statements.

Have you read 1 Cor. 15 where paul clealry explained what the Gospel is? Hint: It has nothing to do with baptism.

[o2bwise]

Hi Freak,

I really don't care what you stand by (in terms of its veracity). I certainly don't pay it much significance. I don't see much veracity in much of anything you write.

Since you think baptism is part of the Gospel I stand by all my statements.

Have you read 1 Cor. 15 where paul clealry explained what the Gospel is? Hint: It has nothing to do with baptism.

Ephesians states that we are to be washed by the WATER OF THE WORD. This WASHING, in its fullness, IS BAPTISM.

It is being so immersed in the word that the word, which is the power and is grace, completes its work of making righteous.

That is the gospel. Receiving the "good news" and the gospel received, in its fullness, IS BAPTISM.

Now, as to baptism by water, you say it is NOT a part of the gospel. God gave us teachers, evangelists, etc. UNTIL there is no further need for them.

He also gave us little teaching guides. He gave us communion so that we could benefit from its instruction. In other words, the actual partaking of bread and wine (I believe juice, but whatever) is a helper. A helper to aid us in what? In receiving the word by faith, which is the essence of the gospel.

Baptism by water is a physical rite, but it serves a purpose as it must (else, why would God have it be so substantially referred to in His Word?). It helps us commit. In public assembly, when one submits to baptism, one is "helped" by the partaking of the physical rite itself. Just as one is helped by other physical rites (eating a piece of bread as one is contemplating Calvary, for example).

You say that such rites, serving as helpers so as to experience the gospel more fully, are not a part of the gospel.

I say that ANYTHING God gives us, whose purpose is to help us more fully appropriate the gospel, IS a part of the gospel.

Furthermore, I think you assume a level of authority that you do not rightfully possess. I think you should have a lower estimation of yourself and not set yourself up as some ultimate guardian of the pure gospel.

You don't even know what it is. You're simply not qualified.

[Freak]

O2bewise,

You have proven to me once again you are unable to deal with God's Truth. Did you read what paul said the Gospel was in 1 Cor. 15? Don't take my word take Paul's word regarding this issue at hand.

Paul never mentioned baptism in 1 Cor. 15 because it is not the Gospel message. The Gospel message is centered on Jesus not baptism. Thank you very much.

As to your other comments they bear no truth in them. Until you have been where I have been I would reserve your comments until another time.

By the way, you are a false teacher according to God's Word. You are a false teacher. You reject the eternal nature of Jesus Christ as being eternal God.

[o2bwise]

Freak,

I referred PRIMARILY to baptism in its spiritual meaning, not the physical rite of immersion in water.

Would you do me a favor?

Quote for me:
Romans 6:4.

And then explain, keeping in mind Romans 6:4, how baptism has nothing to do with the gospel.

You must compare spiritual with spiritual in order to attain a clearer picture. Paul simply was not using the terminology "baptism" in 1 Corinthians 15, however, he was referring to that which baptism is (death to old life, risen to new life).

o2

[Ian Day]

O2BW,

As far as I can see, what you are saying about baptism is not heretical. Believers are baptised; they don't become believers by baptism.

I had a long argument with Freak about 1 Cor. 15, as to what the Gospel is.

[o2bfaithful]

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Rom 6:4

Freak? Is there "new life" without this baptism?

[Freak]

Please be aware my fellow believers that when o2bewise mentions Jesus , he is referring to another Jesus. The Biblical Jesus is eternal God, o2bewise dismisses this vital truth. So when he refers to baptism it is a baptism unto a different Jesus. So this baptism is not a legit baptism but a false one. Hence my statements and my concerns.

[Gerald]

All this from someone who insists he's gone head-to-head with otherworldly bug-uglies...

Good to see you back, Freak...:D

[PENIEL]

FREAK, Have you been Baptised ???

And if so, in what manner ??:confused:

[Freak]

After my conversion to Christ I was water baptized.

[o2bwise]

Hello Freak,

So when he refers to baptism it is a baptism unto a different Jesus. So this baptism is not a legit baptism but a false one. Hence my statements and my concerns.

There is NOTHING in the content of your introduction to this topic nor in ANY post subsequent to this, that HINTS that your concern was that it was "unto a different Jesus."

YOU ARE A LIAR!!!

o2

[Freak]

Paul did you read any further? Apparently not! For if you had you would have not made such uninformed comment.

[Freak]

o2bewise,

You are a false teacher. Your the one claiming that baptism unto a false Jesus will save one.

[o2bwise]

You are a false teacher. Your the one claiming that baptism unto a false Jesus will save one.

Even were this to be so, this does not IN ANY WAY nullify the fact that YOU ARE A LIAR.

Your whole point, in starting this topic, was to point out that I am heretical because I believe baptism is a part of the gospel.

YOU DID NOT OFFER ANY CONDITIONS, SUCH AS "A BAPTISM UNTO A FALSE JESUS." You said baptism, PERIOD and you even cited 1 Corinthians 15 and stated that Paul makes no mention of baptism.

YOU PATHETIC LIAR. YOU ARE UNSCHOOLED IN THE FIRST PRINCIPLES OF THE SCHOOL OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS TO ACKNOWLEDGE WHEN ONE'S OWN SIN IS AT HIS DOOR. YOU HAVE DONE IT BEFORE AND YOU DO IT AGAIN.

NOW YOU CHANGE THE "STORY" SO AS TO DECEITFULLY STEER YOURSELF AWAY FROM ANY WRONGDOING. WHAT A PATHETIC, DECEITFUL LIAR YOU ARE.

LIAR!!!

[tralon]

Well, there's no love lost between Freak and Ob.Anyway when one receives the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" it comes on a person THROUGH faith and is not administered through titles, such as "in the name of Jesus". When the disciples were spirit baptised at Pentecost they were simply praying and the Holy Spirit fell upon them.But when Peter gave his sermom about repenting and being baptised, he was refering to WATER baptism "in the name of Jesus".

I believe Ob is right in some areas.Paul wasn't big on water baptism.And water baptism is NOT part of the gospel message.It COMPLIMENTS it as SYMBOLICALLY picturuing the death and burial of Christ, but never is the heart of the gospel itself. But nevertheless Paul didn't abandon water baptism as some think.For if you read the account of where he dealt with the phillipian jailor and his famil in Acts 16 you will see that right AFTER he preached Jesus Christ to them he took them out to be baptised THAT VERY NIGHT.Yes, Paul considered baptism of spiritual importance.

[Kevin]

Freak,

You said:

Since you think baptism is part of the Gospel I stand by all my statements.

Have you read 1 Cor. 15 where paul clealry explained what the Gospel is? Hint: It has nothing to do with baptism.

I believe that the baptism of Jesus (which includes water) IS necessary for salvation. I marvel at your above statement. You don't think that baptism is part of the gospel message??? Please examine the following passage with me:

Matthew 28:19,20

19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


Jesus is clearly commanding the disciples to go out into the world and baptize people. He then goes on to say that those people must be taught to obey ALL things that He commanded the disciples to do. ALL things. In verse 19, baptism was commanded. If Jesus says that we should "observe all things that I have commanded you", which includes baptism, who are you to say it's not necessary?! :confused:

If somebody goes out and supposedly preaches the gospel to somebody but leaves out baptism, is that observing all things that Jesus commanded to be observed? No. That would make that person disobedient to Jesus. And Hebrews 5:9 states:

9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

So Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to who? All that obey Him. What do you think that says about people who don't obey Him? I'll let you figure that one out....

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by Freak
Please be aware my fellow believers that when o2bewise mentions Jesus , he is referring to another Jesus. The Biblical Jesus is eternal God, o2bewise dismisses this vital truth. So when he refers to baptism it is a baptism unto a different Jesus. So this baptism is not a legit baptism but a false one. Hence my statements and my concerns.

It seems to me that Freak's point is ....For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

If o2bwise believes that Christ is separate from the Father then who's Spirit are we baptized by? Is it the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ?

[HardCoreFundie]

Baptismal Regeneration is a false doctine. We are saved by Faith Alone in Christ Alone.

The Bible says righteosness is imputed by faith. (Romans Chapter 4)

I would like to see one Bible verse that says righteousness is imputed by Baptism, one verse will do fine.

[Kevin]

HardCoreFundie,

I would like to adress the things you said.

We are saved by Faith Alone in Christ Alone.

Compare that with....

James 2:17

17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

I could not possibly put it any plainer than the Bible has. Faith ALONE does not save us.

Next you said:

I would like to see one Bible verse that says righteousness is imputed by Baptism, one verse will do fine.

Fine.

Mark 16:16

16) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

I'm going to assume you've heard this arguement before and attempt to address your probable rebuttle. If this is not the case, I apologize.

I'm assuming that you are going to point out that the condition for condemnation only mentions belief, and nothing about baptism. The answer to this is quite simple: If somebody doesn't believe, then that person is already lost and won't reach the point of baptism. For why would one get baptized into something that he/she doesn't believe in? They wouldn't, and therefore there was no need to mention baptism, because that person is already lost.

Pay close attention to the requirements listed in the begining of that verse that is required for salvation. Belief AND baptism. The significance of the word "and" is essential to understanding this verse's meaning. Two, not one, two conditions HAVE to be met before one can be saved: Belief and baptism! The latter part of that verse doesn't make any difference to the clearly illustrated requirements for salvation.

[Freak]

o2bewise,

Before losing your cool reread my posts.

You will notice I denounce your false teaching that somehow baptism is a part of the Gospel, it is not. This is not a change from my purpose of this thread. You my friend have chosen to keep in theological darkness. This will only cost your eternal soul as you reject the Biblical Jesus.

You may be able to deceive some on this forum with your demonic lies but you have NOT deceived me. You promote a false salvation, a false baptism, and a false Jesus.

Kevin,

Have you read 1 Cor. 15? If you had you will admit that baptism is not part of the Gospel, it is merely a response to the message of the Gospel.

[PENIEL]

Freak is like Senator McCarthy during the Cold War who Labeled anyone who did not fit his personal definition of a good American as a Commi Pinko Traitor .

Freak is doing the same in the name of his own brand of Orthodox Religion.

URL=http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/july-dec97/blacklist_10-24.html

[Kevin]

Freak,

Have you read 1 Cor. 15? If you had you will admit that baptism is not part of the Gospel, it is merely a response to the message of the Gospel.

Sorry Freak, but I will admit to no such thing. Let's look at the 1 Cor. 15, verses 1 and 2:

1) Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you recieved and in which you stand,
2) by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.

Freak, the first thing I would like to point out is that this is a letter to the brethren of Corinth, not to a group of people who had not been converted/saved. The importance of this fact cannot be overstated. Notice that Paul says in verse 2 " by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you". "Preached", being past-tense, means that the gospel message had already been preached to them. If somebody has already been converted (in which baptism is a part of that process), then of course there would be no mention of that. Baptism is a one time deal, and it allows us as sinful humans to put away our bodies of sin and be reborn in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:3-6).

What I'm getting at is that these brethren at Corinth had already been baptized. How do I know that? Because there is a clear example in the Bible of sinners being converted and becoming brethren, it's in Acts chapter 2, the first recorded gospel message (good news) to some jews. Let's examine it.

In Acts chapter 2, Peter is preaching to the Jews and going over a brief history with them, leading up to the point of letting them know that they were responsible for crucifying the Son of God. It says that the Jews were "cut to the heart" and asked Peter and the rest of the apostles what they had to do be saved. The very clear response is in verse 38:

Acts 2:38

38) Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Two conditions had to be met before people could recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit, thus being saved:

1) Repentance
2) Baptism

This is a command that is given in the imperative mood and was to be obeyed at once. Both repentance and baptism carry equal authority, and must be obeyed in order for the result to happen; the recieving of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Notice also verse 41:

41) Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

This shows that the Jews indeed obeyed the command to be baptized, and as a result, "about three thousand souls were added to them."

Notice that this verse does NOT say something like "Then those who glady recieved his word had their souls added to them, and then they were baptized". No, it was talking about people who heard the word and obeyed it, which included the command to be baptized. ONLY then were their souls added to them.

Just as the Jews obeyed the command to be baptized (verse 41), so should we. If we don't, then we are not obeying Christ (Matthew 28:19,20), and that WILL cost you your soul. We are only saved if we obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9).

Acts chapter 2 is a clear example of how a person who is dead in sin can become saved and join other brethren around the world, just like the brethren of Corinth. The Corinth brethren were baptized because Jesus Christ commanded it in the great commission, which you failed to address, so I'll post it again:

Matthew 28:19,20

19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Jesus commanded His disciples to go out into world and baptize people and for those people to observe ALL things that Jesus commanded the disciples to do, which INCLUDED baptism. What did Paul go out and preach? THE GOSPEL. And when Paul obeyed Jesus and went out to Corinth "making disciples and baptizing them", those people who believed were baptized (or your telling me that Paul disobeyed Jesus's DIRECT order to do that very thing), and they were saved... because they heard the gospel and they obeyed it!

So I ask you again, knowing that baptism is commanded by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, how can you say that baptism isn't necessary?? If we don't obey Jesus, then He is NOT the author of eternal salvation to that person, because Heberws 5:9 states:

9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

It clearly states that He is the author of salvation to who? All who obey Him. Where do you think that leaves the people that don't obey Him? I'll spell it out just so there's no confusion: HELL.

Is baptism necessary for salvation? You bet it is. Obey the word!!

[o2bwise]

Hope,

Please dispense with doctrine (I mean this in a certain sense) and just be HONEST. Know something by its words and actions. (I realize in this case, we only have words).

When Freak opened up this topic, he denounced my views of baptism as heretical on the following basis.

1. Baptism is not mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 (neither is Christ's blood by the way).

THAT was his point. The original post had NOTHING to do with whether or not the baptism I believe in is unto "another" Christ.

Just LOOK at the start of Freak's topic to find even a HINT of that. It won't be found.

THEN I brought up Romans 6:4. He then SWITCHED (LIED, DECEIVED). He tried to put on the appearance of ALL THE WHILE attacking my belief that baptism is part of the gospel NOT by claiming 1 Cor 15 and its not mentioning baptism, BUT by saying my view is heretical because I believe in a baptism unto "another" Christ.

That is just plain dishonesty.

Now, one thing I see often in these kind of forums is the sinful practise of preferring a person's words BECAUSE of what that person believes.

Such as:
o2 has this weird non-Trinitarian belief. Thus, I will typically find him to be wrong - no matter what.

Freak is Trinitarian and is a zealous defender of the truth (hooray!). Thus, I will typically defend him - no matter what.

The truth is, the words we offer contain their own innate veracity. Regardless of what Freak believes and regardless of what I believe, the words often stand, just as they are.

In this case, Freak is being a dishonest, deceiving LIAR.

Also in this case, sadly, you appear to be in the category of defending Freak because you like how he believes and dislike how I believe.

Freak's behavior, sometimes, is beneath the typical behavior of the heathens that post in this forum.

Nice "ally," huh?

o2

[Freak]

o2bewise,

Attacking others is not the solution.

You embrace a false baptism and you believe that in order to be saved you have to be baptized, this is a false teaching. I'm not sure where you get all this other stuff from. You are in a make believe world and that my friend is dangerous. I urge to come back to Biblical Christianity.

I warn you with Scripture: If anybody is preaching to you a Gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemend (Galatians 1:9). O2bewsie, you are the one Paul is warning us of. You preach "another Gospel" and a false Jesus.

You deny that Jesus is eternal God. This alone places you in the kingdom of Satan. I would urge you to surrender your life to the right Jesus and the not the wrong Jesus before you die. There is but One Jesus (the one who is eternal God) who can forgive you of all your sins. Begin a relationship with Him right now.

Kevin,

Answer the question please. Did Paul mention baptism in 1 Cor. 15? Your answer will help those reading these posts. Paul did not believe that Baptism was part of the Gospel hence him saying "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel,..." (1 Cor. 1:17). He made a difference between baptism and the Gospel. Do you see it or are you blinded like O2bewise?

[tralon]

Is water baptism necessary FOR the Christian? If so why, if he is saved by faith alone? The answer lies in WHAT baptism symbolizes or pictures.According to Paul in Rom 6:3-4 it is a symbol of the believer being BURIED WITH CHRIST and being RAISED to a NEW LIFE.Also in Gal 3:27 Paul say that in baptism we PUT ON Christ.These verses are HIGHLY significant and not to be taken lightly.So what does this all mean?

It is like you sign up for the army.You raise your right hand to take the oath to serve your country and the army.That pictures your faith.Now you go and get your uniform.You PUT it on.That shows the world and those around you that you wear the uniform of the US Army and CHOSE to do so.This is what baptism represents.When you are immersed in the waters of baptism you are IDENTIFYING yourself with Jesus Christ, but at the same time you are PUBLICALLY showing everyone seeing you that you have chosen to be identified with Jesus.Baptism doesn't offer any salvation, but it confrms the reality of of you genuineness to become a Christian and wanting to be identified with Christ.

[Freak]

dr.Racism,

Thank you for your comments however you are you wrong.

The fact is heretics of our day desire to promote a belief that baptism will somehow save you. This is a lie from the pit of hell. The Apostle Paul made it clear "justification is by faith" (Romans 5:1).

[Freak]

dr.Racism,

I will not be responding to you anymore because you lack any theological knowledge which makes it hard for anyone to discuss these issues with you. Good Luck with your life.

[Kevin]

Freak,

Answer the question please. Did Paul mention baptism in 1 Cor. 15? Your answer will help those reading these posts. Paul did not believe that Baptism was part of the Gospel hence him saying "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel,..." (1 Cor. 1:17). He made a difference between baptism and the Gospel. Do you see it or are you blinded like O2bewise?


NOW I see what you are asking. When you asked me if I've read 1 Cor. 15, I took that as chapter 15, not 1 Cor. 1:15. Could you be more precise in the future so I don't spend time answering the wrong passage? Thanks.

Now, I will address your question concerning 1 Cor. 1:15. When Paul says that "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel" (verse 17), he was not in any way shape or form implying that baptism isn't necessary. Not at all. If you look at the context of chapter 1 in it's entirety, the reason behind verse 17 is quite clear.

Starting at verse 10 it says:

10) Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions amoung you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Paul is pleading with the brethren at Corinth not to become divided. Divided over what? Verses 12-13 hold this answer:

12) Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
13) Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The Corinthian brethren were being divided over who actually baptized them. They were placing spiritual importance on the person that baptized them, as if the people who where baptized by Paul had a better baptism than somebody who was baptized by Apollos.

We as Christians are commanded to be baptized into Jesus Christ, and not into anybody else. That's why Paul asked them "Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?", because these people were missing the whole point of baptism. We are all baptized into Christ regardless of who does the actual baptizing. But the Corinthian brethren didn't see it that way, and were being divided, based on the person that baptized them, which is why Paul is rebuking them.

Paul's displeasure with them is evident in verses 14 and 15:

14) I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15) lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.

Paul said this because if he had baptized more people than he already did, the problem would be even bigger, having more people saying "I am of Paul".

So finally, that leads us to verse 17:

17) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Paul is simply saying that baptism is not his main focus, not that baptism isn't necessary. Paul's main focus was to preach the word of God. Notice, however, that everybody spoken about in these verses were indeed baptized. It's just too bad that these people were making a big deal about who baptized them, or else Paul would have no need to rebuke them about this. Why would Paul preach that baptism isn't necessary when it was commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19,20?

A perfect example of what I'm talking about can be found in John 4:1-2:

1) Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John
2) (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)

See the similarity? Based on verse 2, because Jesus didn't baptize people Himself (just like Paul's main focus was not to baptize people himself), would you make the assertion that baptism isn't necessary, just because He (Jesus) didn't do the act? If so then explain to me why Jesus Himself went on to say in Mark 16:16 that "he who believes AND is baptized will be saved". Also explain to me why He commanded it in the great commission (Matt. 28:19,20).

Freak, I have asked you two times and you haven't answered, so I will ask again:

Knowing that baptism is commanded by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:19,20), who are you say that baptism isn't necessary?? If we don't obey Jesus's commandments, then He is NOT the author of eternal salvation to that person, because Heberws 5:9 states:

9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

It clearly states that He is the author of salvation to who? All who obey Him. Where do you think that leaves the people that don't obey Him? I'll spell it out just so there's no confusion: HELL.

So again, who are you to say that baptism is not necessary, when the Lord has commanded it? Answer that question please.

[PENIEL]

As usual Freak is the Opposite of Graciousness to his fellow Christian.


Too bad that he has not developed any Fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Freak does not know that a person

has to have Faith before he is Baptized.

But it is not easy to change the mind of a Stiff necked person.

[EricU]

You guys, this isn't that difficult. Baptism by the Holy Spirit is what saves since the Holy Spirit washes away our sins. Anyone can be dunked under water but it's the Holy Spirit that saves. Baptism is a cerimony and is symbolic as it is used today. Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I believe, comes on someone the moment they are saved.

There are 2 different types of baptism being used on this board. One physical, the other spiritual. One symbolic, the other is the is when one becomes saved.

[Kevin]

EricU,

You guys, this isn't that difficult.

I agree, it's crystal clear to me.

Baptism by the Holy Spirit is what saves since the Holy Spirit washes away our sins. Anyone can be dunked under water but it's the Holy Spirit that saves.

The gift of the Holy Spirit saves us, but water is a crucial part of the baptism of Jesus, not just of John. I am aware that John said "I baptize with water, but He who comes after baptizes with the Holy Spirit", but John isn't saying that water won't be necessary. The only reason John said that is because John, or any other human, was incapable of baptizing with the Holy Spirit since it hadn't come yet. After all, who could be the perfect lamb of God but Jesus? All John could do was the water part. The gift of the Holy Spirit (salvation) had not yet come.

John 3:5 states:

5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless on is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

As you said earlier, this isn't that difficult. That verse is clearly speaking about the requirements for being reborn, and it includes water, as well as the Holy Spirit. Anybody who teaches that water isn't necessary goes against this verse, and thus Jesus.

That's why the Bible has examples like Phillip baptizing the Ethiopian. Look for yourself in Acts 8:35-36:

35) Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"

This isn't the baptism of John... no siree, this is the baptism of Jesus Christ mentioned here (verse 35). The fact that the eunuch asked "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" proves that Phillip instructed baptism with water, or why would the enuch mention water at all? Phillip was instructing the eunuch about baptism, which is what Jesus commanded in the great commission (Matt. 28:19-20), and it inlcudes water. This passage and the "unless you are born of water and Spirit" passage proves that water is involved.

Another example of Jesus's baptism requiring water is in Acts 10:47-48:

47) Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

I couldn't say it any plainer. Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized?

If you think that they were saved in verse 44 when the Holy Spirit fell on them in the miraculous measure, then explain to me Numbers 11:25. It states:

25) Then the Lord came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again.

In both Acts 10:44 and Numbers 11:25 the Holy Spirit fell upon people and the result was the same: the people were given miraculous spiritual gifts. The people in Numbers prophecied, while the people in Acts spoke with tongues. My point is this: If the falling of the Holy Spirit is what saved those people in Acts 10:44 then the people in Numbers 11:25 were saved also, becuase the same thing happened to both parties. And if the people in Numbers were saved, then that means there was salvation before Christ, and that just isn't possible.

The people in Acts 10:44 had the Holy Spirit poured upon them so that the Jews would know that salvation was available to the Gentiles as well as the Jews. That's why the Jews were amazed (verse 45). Once it was proven to the Jews by miraculous measure that the Gentiles also found favor in God's eyes, the Gentiles were baptized into Christ Jesus with water. And the baptism of Jesus is the difference between spiritual life and death (Romans 6:3-6).

[Freak]

Kevin,

Do I believe baptism is commanded of course I do just as loving one another is commanded.

But loving people will not get you to heaven. Neither will baptism. Baptism is just that baptism. The blood of Christ however will save you (Hebrews 1:7).

Instead of putting your trust in a act put your trust in a living Person-The Lord Jesus Christ.

The main difference between me and you is this: I tell others it is Jesus that saves. You tell others it Jesus (as if He is not enough) AND baptism.

[Ian Day]

I posted this a while ago, but no-one commented:

Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner, whereby he is given new spiritual life. Certainly baptism is commanded, but it is for the believer, already saved, already with new life from the dead, already quickened. It is the cleansing of the conscience, the application of the blood of the sacrifice, the blood of the covenant, (Heb. 9 & 13) as the Lord's Supper is the partaking of the sacrifice.

Baptism is understood by evangelical Christians in various ways.
1. "Covenant baptism" equivalent to circ-umcision, therefore applied to babies within the church.

2. "Believers' baptism" administered to new believers as a sign of various spiritual blessings (see above.) Baptism is normally required for church membership. It is not considered essential for salvation, because it is for believers. THe mode of baptism is not important. (My position.)

3. Baptism by immersion required for remission of sins and therefore salvation. A person is considered unsaved until he is so baptised. Immersion is inferred from several texts, but not in fact specified. I reject this understanding.

While I do not hold with infant baptism, I cannot reject it as invalid, because that would mean rejecting as unbelievers many godly Christians alive & dead. Most of those responsible for our translations, commentaries, and the proclaiming of the Gospel down the ages have held this position against the baptist position. Most also accept baptism by sprinkling.

Sprinkling can be understood from Hebrews 9:10 where "various baptisms" refers to Old Covenant sprinklings with water & ashes, water & blood, etc. THe Passover lamb blood was sprinkled on the door posts. With this understanding, Peter's reference to "sprinkled blood" becomes a reference to baptism. (1 Peter 1:2)

When we refer to the LXX we find Naaman baptising himself in the Jordan. (2 Kings 5:14) THe LXX word translated dipped is "ebaptisato" from the Heb. "tabal". Tabal is used a number times to dip, as in dip (LXX "bapsei") & sprinkle, e.g.
Num 19:18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip [it] in the water, and sprinkle [it] upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:
THis is part of the "red heifer" ritual referred to in Hebrew 9. Thanks, http://www.BlueletterBible.org/ for easy access to Hebrew & Greek.

From this I understand a dip and pour/sprinkle method to be valid baptism. John could quite easily have stood in the Jordan and baptised by scooping water by dipping cupped hands or a vessel to apply to the head of the penitent sinner. It would have made it possible for 3000 people to be baptised on the day of Pentecost without taking over the public water supply. (Courtesy of the Roman & Jewish authorities who had just crucified the one in whose name the baptisms were taking place!) Sprinkling with a sprig of hyssop would have been possible also.

I don't believe a believer who was not baptised as a baby who learnt about believers' baptism would refuse it. He has the Holy Spirit guiding him. Nor do I think one baptised in infancy & who refused believers' baptism is being disobedient to Christ's command, if he understands "covenant baptism."

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by o2bwise
Hope,

Please dispense with doctrine (I mean this in a certain sense) and just be HONEST. Know something by its words and actions. (I realize in this case, we only have words).

When Freak opened up this topic, he denounced my views of baptism as heretical on the following basis.

1. Baptism is not mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 (neither is Christ's blood by the way).

THAT was his point. The original post had NOTHING to do with whether or not the baptism I believe in is unto "another" Christ.

Just LOOK at the start of Freak's topic to find even a HINT of that. It won't be found.

THEN I brought up Romans 6:4. He then SWITCHED (LIED, DECEIVED). He tried to put on the appearance of ALL THE WHILE attacking my belief that baptism is part of the gospel NOT by claiming 1 Cor 15 and its not mentioning baptism, BUT by saying my view is heretical because I believe in a baptism unto "another" Christ.

That is just plain dishonesty.

Now, one thing I see often in these kind of forums is the sinful practise of preferring a person's words BECAUSE of what that person believes.

Such as:
o2 has this weird non-Trinitarian belief. Thus, I will typically find him to be wrong - no matter what.

Freak is Trinitarian and is a zealous defender of the truth (hooray!). Thus, I will typically defend him - no matter what.

The truth is, the words we offer contain their own innate veracity. Regardless of what Freak believes and regardless of what I believe, the words often stand, just as they are.

In this case, Freak is being a dishonest, deceiving LIAR.

Also in this case, sadly, you appear to be in the category of defending Freak because you like how he believes and dislike how I believe.

Freak's behavior, sometimes, is beneath the typical behavior of the heathens that post in this forum.

Nice "ally," huh?

o2

O2bwise, I don't believe you can read minds and you have gone a little overboard with your understanding of my intent. My point is as I stated "If o2bwise believes that Christ is separate from the Father then who's Spirit are we baptized by? Is it the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ?". If I misunderstood Freak's point then I apologize to you and Freak.

This question is still to you..."Is it the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ" that baptizes spiritually.

[Jason]

Spot on Tralon!!!
This is what baptism represents.When you are immersed in the waters of baptism you are IDENTIFYING yourself with Jesus Christ

The following is what God does when He saves you:

He identifies you with the Lord Jesus. In His death your flesh has been judged at the cross. In His resurrection you have a new life with Him. You are baptised into Christ. "Baptism now saves you".

When a Christian asks to be baptised by water he should know that he is witnessing to the following position. He is dead in the flesh but alive in Christ. Christians should realize that the act of baptism is God's work, they are simply witnessing to that work by being baptised in water.

The receiving of the atonement results in God baptising you into Christ by the Spirit. The reason why Christians enter into a debate, whether Baptism is part of the Gospel message or not, is for the following reasons.
1) no distinction is made between the Gospel delivered to the Jew and the Gospel delivered to the Gentile.

2) A misconception that there is more than one baptism. The bible speaks only of one. (Eph 4 v 5 ) Note: although there seems to be 2 separate baptisms, water and Spirit, I have argued that our Baptism by the Spirit is the work of God to which we are positioned in Christ. Baptism by water does not achieve a new position. It should not be considered apart.

God saves. We can do no more but to witness to this.

In Him
Jason

[EricU]

But if baptism is required for salvation then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross.

Jesus assured the thief that he would be in paradise with him. He was never baptised. He was on the cross.

Baptism doesn't mean salvation. I know several people who only went through baptism because they thought it was what people did. They cared nothing for God or even talking about Him. Only several years later did some of them actually admit this, even though we had kinda suspected, and commit their life to Christ. Baptism has no power if the person is not willing.

[servantofChrist]

Whoa there, "Freak!"

There are so many conflicts and contradictions in what you've presented it's really hard to know where to start.

You cite scriptures mentioning salvation being given to the individual, but with no mention of baptism. For instance, Acts 16:31 - "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household." According to your own logic, and your own use of the scriptures, if that is ALL that is necessary for one to be saved, then one can keep on being a liar, a thief, a fornicator, an adulterer, or even a murderer, and be saved only if he believes in the Lord Jesus. That is the NECESSARY CONCLUSION we must reach, and believe, according to YOUR logic - BECAUSE ACTS 16:31 SAYS NOTHING ABOUT REPENTANCE! Moreover, I can just ignore Rom. 10:10, which says, "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation," and believe and teach everyone else that they don't have to confess the name of Christ to be saved, because Acts 16:31 says all you have to do is "BELIEVE" in Him!

What do you think, Freak?

Also, please answer this: Why do you do a "patchwork" with the New Testament scriptures, picking and choosing the ones that fit what you believe, and conveniently dodging or detouring around others that say more on the subject of salvation? Like 1 Pet. 3:21, which says - "Baptism also now saves you"?

Those 5 words, inspired by the Holy Spirit, spoken by the apostle Peter, form an INDEPENDENT CLAUSE - a COMPLETE THOUGHT which STANDS ALONE. "Baptism" is the subject, "saves" is the verb, telling what baptism does, and "you" is the direct object of the verb - making "you" (all of those who obey the Lord in baptism) the direct object of the action being performed by baptism - which is being "SAVED!"

I await your comments, Freak!

[servantofChrist]

Hi EricU,

I appreciate what you said about the thief on the cross. But there's no contradiction at all about the theif being saved without baptism and the belief/teaching now that baptism IS necessary. Here's why...

First of all, Jesus had "authority on earth to forgive sins" (Mk. 2:10). Thus, as He went about healing the sick, at times he would say, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (eg. Mk. 2:5).

But AFTER THE CROSS the time came when Jesus would no longer be on the earth to forgive men of their sins as He had been doing. Instead, in His final hours, while with His disciples, He gave TO THEM the following 3-part, great commandment - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you...." (Matt. 28:19-20).

Notice the 3 things that the Lord COMMANDED: (1) Make disciples (2) Baptizing them (3) Teaching them to obey everything.

The scope of the command was universal - "ALL NATIONS." And he COMMANDED his apostles to BAPTIZE those who would be His disciples - now watch this, EricU, and everyone else, please: Jesus not only COMMANDED these apostles to go and make disciples, baptizing them, He also told THEM to tell THOSE WHO HEARD THEM to obey EVERYTHING He had commanded - And He had just COMMANDED BAPTISM!

Therefore, people of "all nations" who wish to be a disciple of Jesus Christ have been COMMANDED by Christ, through His apostles, to be baptized: "make disciples of all nations, BAPTIZING THEM...and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I have COMMANDED you...."F

The baptism of Christ had not been appointed yet when the thief was on the cross next to Jesus. Moreover, he could obviously do nothing, being nailed to a cross, in demonstrating his faith in the Lord except to do so verbally. At this point, Jesus still exercised His "authority on earth to forgive sins," so He forgave the thief because of the penitence he showed while hanging on the cross. It was ALL he COULD do.

But when Jesus gave the Great Commission to His apostles, and Luke states that "repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem" (Lk. 24:47).

And guess what was preached in the very first gospel sermon to the audience there, beginning at Jerusalem (Acts 2), for them to receive the forgiveness of their sins? Right! "Repent AND BE BAPTIZED, EVERYONE OF YOU [just as Jesus commanded his apostles in Matt. 28:19], in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS...." (Acts 2:38)

[Sealeaf]

Below are two passages from the catechism of the Roman Catholic Church related to their view of Baptism .


Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, SubSection 3, Heading 1
1229 From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.


1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

It would seem that Baptism follows the acquistion of Faith but that one can get around the need for it only by martyrdom. I have heard also of the concept of "Baptism of Desire" but was not able to find a direct reference to it in a short search. I believe that it refers to the idea that one may be saved who would have been baptised if he had been aware of the need to be baptised. I think it may be listed under loop holes;)

[Kevin]

Freak,

Do I believe baptism is commanded of course I do just as loving one another is commanded.

Cool. We both agree that Jesus commanded baptism.

But loving people will not get you to heaven. Neither will baptism. Baptism is just that baptism. The blood of Christ however will save you (Hebrews 1:7).

Loving people by itself will not get you to heaven. That is correct. Baptism by itself will not get you to heaven, that is correct. But both of those things are required, along with other things.

After all, if you don't love people, which is said by Jesus to be the second greatest commandment, do you really think that you will make it to heaven? And when Jesus says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved", do you really think that omitting baptism out of that verse saves you, when it's inseperately joined to belief by the word "and"? We are to obey **ALL** of Jesus commands unconditionally. Look at what the scriptures says about obedience:

Romans 2:6-9
6) who "will render to each one according to his deeds."
7) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8) but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath,
9) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Hebrews 5:9
9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

1 John 3:24
24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter through the gates into the city.

It should be obvious from these verses that the only way we will make it to heaven is if we obey His commandments. Bearing this in mind, even you agreed that baptism was commanded by Jesus. If we obey His commandments, then what happens? We are saved. Accoriding to Hebrews 5:9, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. If you don't obey Him, is He the author of eternal salvation to that person? No.

Instead of putting your trust in a act put your trust in a living Person-The Lord Jesus Christ.

I most certainly do put my trust in Him. I also believe I should obey everything He commands. Do you?

The main difference between me and you is this: I tell others it is Jesus that saves. You tell others it Jesus (as if He is not enough) AND baptism.

Correction, the main difference between you and me is that I teach that Jesus saves us and that we are to obey all of His commandments. You don't, or you would teach that baptism is necessary, for He commanded it (along with many other things). And the Bible is clear about those who do not keep Jesus's commandments.

[Freak]

Kevin,

Please do not misunderstand me.

Baptism is commanded. But the issue is: Is baptism essential for salvation? The answer is a resounding NO!!!! Baptism cannot save you or anybody else. Jesus can save you however!

The Apostle Paul made it quite clear salvation is by faith alone. He writes: Having been justified by faith we can have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Kevin]

Ian Day,

ANY COMMENTS????????

Kev pulls out his bag of comments and lays it on the table... :)

Certainly baptism is commanded, but it is for the believer, already saved, already with new life from the dead, already quickened.

Baptism is for the believer who is already saved? I certainly disagree with that statement. You're probably are familiar with Romans 6:3-6, but I'm going to post it and show you why I believe your statement is in error.

Romans 6:3-6

3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5) For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

These verses point out what the baptism of Jesus is all about. Notice in verse 5 is says that IF we have been united together in the likeness of His death (being baptized, verse 3), we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, and our bodies of sin will be done away with... no longer being slaves to sin.

Therefore, if have not been united together in the likeness of His death (being baptized), we will not be in the likeness of His resurrection, our bodies of sin won't be done away with, and we will still be slaves to sin.

So explain to me how a person that will not be in the likeness of His ressurection and is a slave to sin is saved?

[Evangelion]

Freak, if you believe that baptism should be performed, yet you don't belive it's essential for salvation...

...why do you think we were commanded to perform it?

What do you think it's there for?

Why did the apostles keep baptising people when they became believers?

Why is it that those who had already received the baptism of John, had to be baptised again after the ascension of Christ?

[Kevin]

Evangelion,

Freak, if you believe that baptism should be performed, yet you don't belive it's essential for salvation...

...why do you think we were commanded to perform it?

What do you think it's there for?

Why did the apostles keep baptising people when they became believers?

Why is it that those who had already received the baptism of John, had to be baptised again after the ascension of Christ?

That is exactly what I've been trying to tell him. Obedience to His commandments, every one of them, is necessary for our salvation. Amen and Amen! (Glad to see we agree on something :D)

[Kevin]

Freak,

The Apostle Paul made it quite clear salvation is by faith alone. He writes: Having been justified by faith we can have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 13:3
3) I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

John 3:5
5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Neither one of these verses mentions anything about faith, yet, both say that people will perish and/or will not enter the kingdom of God unless the things in these verses are obeyed.

Then you look at James 2:17:
17) Thus also, faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

So faith alone will not save you because dead faith doesn't save! It takes faith along with the works of obeying His commandments. Again, the Bible is quite clear about those who do not keep Jesus's commandment's. And baptism is just one of His many commandments.

[kitsune]

Oh, you're not resurrecting the Heretic Club again are you? Freak, you are bad and may not have a Christian biscuit.
Seriously, I think you and O2 are referring to different things when you talk about baptism.

[Evangelion]

Thanks for the support, Kevin. :)

As you can see, Freak's argument is self-defeating! :D

[Ian Day]

Originally posted by Kevin
Ian Day,

Kev pulls out his bag of comments and lays it on the table... :)

Baptism is for the believer who is already saved? I certainly disagree with that statement. You're probably are familiar with Romans 6:3-6, but I'm going to post it and show you why I believe your statement is in error.

These verses point out what the baptism of Jesus is all about. Notice in verse 5 is says that IF we have been united together in the likeness of His death (being baptized, verse 3), we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, and our bodies of sin will be done away with... no longer being slaves to sin.

Therefore, if have not been united together in the likeness of His death (being baptized), we will not be in the likeness of His resurrection, our bodies of sin won't be done away with, and we will still be slaves to sin.

So explain to me how a person that will not be in the likeness of His ressurection and is a slave to sin is saved?
Just as there was a spiritual, heavenly reality in the Old Covenant rites, so there is a spiritual, heavenly reality in the New Covenant rites.

I'm sure you will agree that baptism per se has no saving efficacy. Baptism only has significance for the believing subjects of baptism.

Baptism is A SIGN to the believer of all that the Holy Spirit of God has done in the heart of the believer (death of the old sinful life, and new life in Christ), and of the application of the saving blood of Christ. It speaks of cleansing the conscience, so that the sprinkled water shows the application of the sprinkled blood. (Heb. 9 & 10, 1 Peter 1:2, 3:21.)

While baptism per se does not save, to refuse baptism is to reject the command of Christ. While such people may be saved, they should not be granted membership status in the church, or allowed to partake of the communion.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[Ian Day]

My answers in red.


Originally posted by Evangelion
Freak, if you believe that baptism should be performed, yet you don't belive it's essential for salvation...

...why do you think we were commanded to perform it?

There were various typical baptisms under the Old Covenant. (See Heb. 9) Baptism shows the cleansing by the blood of Jesus. (Among other things.) It is commanded by Christ to show the believer graphically what has been done in his heart. And for the believer to show that he submits to God in repentance & faith, and therefore qualifies to be a recognised member of the church.

What do you think it's there for?

See above.

Why did the apostles keep baptising people when they became believers?

See above.

Why is it that those who had already received the baptism of John, had to be baptised again after the ascension of Christ?

There is only one case of this. Presumably they were not in fact believers, but repented at the preaching of Paul. Note that the had not heard the message of John about Christ baptising with the Holy Spirit.

THere is no suggestion that the Apostles or the 70 were rebaptised. Rather, the baptism of John was recognised:
Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

[Freak]

Kevin, Evangelion, & all the other heretics,

Go back and reread my post.

Did Paul not say "having been justified by faith" (Romans 5:1). How are we justified according to Paul? By Baptism. Nope, try again. By obeying all God's commandements? Nope, try again. By faith in Christ. YES!!!!

Note that Paul did not mention that justification comes by the act of baptism or obedience to God's commandments. It comes "by faith".

Kevin,

You mentioned James as being evidence that we ought to have works in order to be saved. That is absurd and laughable. At what point will you have enough good works to be saved. By what objective standard do you use to test this? I would think perfection would do it. But the problem is wer're utterly sinful (Romans 3:23) we cannot attain perfection. By the way the Book of James was written to believers those whom already were saved by Christ. Yes, believers who know Christ should have good works. But good works does not save (Eph. 2:8-9).

[Ian Day]

Kevin, you say:
So faith alone will not save you because dead faith doesn't save! It takes faith along with the works of obeying His commandments. Again, the Bible is quite clear about those who do not keep Jesus's commandment's. And baptism is just one of His many commandments.
None of us suggest that dead faith has any saving power. It is the subject of our faith - the Lord Jesus Christ - who saves and saves to the uttermost those who come to God through him.

If keeping God's commandments is required we are all lost. As, of course we are. Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Were Abraham & Rahab saved by keeping the Law? What were the works which showed their faith?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

[tralon]

Freak your denial of the necessity of water baptism simply does not hold water.One is truely justified by faith in Christ, but baptism is an expression OF THAT FAITH.So much so that Paul says in Rom 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27 that the believer is identiified with Christ BY baptism.It is a confirmation ordinance showing our union with the Lord Jesus Christ.It is the same with communion.We partake of the Lord's Supper as an expression of our faith with Christ in our mind and hearts.We become unified with his death on Calvary.Baptism by water is an essential church ordinance for the believer and is not to be taken lightly.

I personally do not hold to the teaching of "baptism regeneration" as taught by many Christian denominations today, because of the fact regeneration means in essence to produce life.All the water in the ocean could not do this.But water baptism has GREAT spiritual significance of which you overlook.I suggest you restudy the subject.

[Evangelion]

In case you hadn't noticed, I was actually supporting baptism as part of the salvic process!

My questions were directed at Freak, who's been incapable of defending his wild views on the subject. ;)

With regard to a few of your points...

>
There were various typical baptisms under the Old Covenant. (See Heb. 9) Baptism shows the cleansing by the blood of Jesus. (Among other things.) It is commanded by Christ to show the believer graphically what has been done in his heart. And for the believer to show that he submits to God in repentance & faith, and therefore qualifies to be a recognised member of the church.
>

I agree with all of this. But I'd like to add that baptism is also symbolic of death and resurrection. Specifically, the death and resurrection of Christ, with which we identify by our immersion.

>
There is only one case of this. Presumably they were not in fact believers, but repented at the preaching of Paul. Note that the had not heard the message of John about Christ baptising with the Holy Spirit.
>

Actually, we're told that they were believers, and that some of them were converting others. Observe:

Acts 18:24-28.
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

>
THere is no suggestion that the Apostles or the 70 were rebaptised.
>

Agreed. And it is most likely that those who received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost were considered to be "exempt" from baptism, since they'd clearly been accepted.

>
Rather, the baptism of John was recognised:
Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
>

Yes, the baptism of John was recognised. But not in every case.

[Evangelion]

...that Freak can't deal with this subject because his brain is too small.

:D

[Ian Day]

Evangelion,

We don't read of Apollos being rebaptised. He was already fervent in the spirit .

The 12 Ephesians were "disciples" rather than "believers."

[Evangelion]

...what was it that they had to "explain to him more perfectly", do you think?

And why else would the baptism of John be mentioned?

[Freak]

It's amazing not one person dealt with my last post.

[Evangelion]

You didn't respond to our posts.

We're still waiting for the explanations, dude.

Remember, I had asked you:


Freak, if you believe that baptism should be performed, yet you don't belive it's essential for salvation...

...why do you think we were commanded to perform it?
What do you think it's there for?
Why did the apostles keep baptising people when they became believers?
Why is it that those who had already received the baptism of John, had to be baptised again after the ascension of Christ?

Better get busy with those answers, my lad... ;)

[servantofChrist]

Originally posted by Freak
Kevin,

Please do not misunderstand me.

Baptism is commanded. But the issue is: Is baptism essential for salvation? The answer is a resounding NO!!!! Baptism cannot save you or anybody else. Jesus can save you however!

[QUOTE]The Apostle Paul made it quite clear salvation is by faith alone. He writes: Having been justified by faith we can have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.[QUOTE]

Freak, you got it wrong again! You said that Paul makes it clear that salvation is "by faith alone." But the verse you quoted to prove it - does NOT prove it! It says by "faith" - it does NOT say by faith ALONE! The word faith is used there in a comprehensive sense, which includes obedience. Freak, would you please ask yourself this... If one is saved because he believes IN Christ, then don't you think this also means that he who believes IN Christ will also believe WHAT HE SAYS? To believe in Christ as LORD over all, means that if He COMMANDS us to do something, we will obey His word IMPLICITLY - AS MANY COMMANDS AS HE HAS GIVEN.

Answer this, please - We are COMMANDED to believe in the Lord Jesus (Acts 16:31) to be saved. We are also COMMANDED - BY CHRIST HIMSELF - to be baptized (Matt. 28:19-20). How then can you possibly say that only one of those two commands is necessary for us to obey to be saved, when 1 Pet. 3:21 specifically states - "baptism also now saves us"?

You cite Rom 5:1 as proof that "faith alone" saves us. But, quite to the contrary, the only verse in the N. T. that contains the words, "faith alone," REFUTES everything you are saying. It is Jas. 2:24, which says, "You see that a man is justified by works, and NOT BY FAITH ALONE" (emphasis added).

[Kevin]

Freak,

You mentioned James as being evidence that we ought to have works in order to be saved. That is absurd and laughable.

Wow. I truly pity the person who says that Apostle James's words are "absurd and laughable". I truly do.


At what point will you have enough good works to be saved.

When you have obeyed all of the works commanded of us.

By what objective standard do you use to test this?

The Holy Bible.

By the way the Book of James was written to believers those whom already were saved by Christ.

And your point? Believing alone is not enough (He who believes AND is baptized will be saved), just like faith alone isn't enough. James is the one that says faith alone is dead, so if you have a problem with that, then take it up with James.

Yes, believers who know Christ should have good works. But good works does not save (Eph. 2:8-9).

It's funny how you tell me, and others alike to re-read your post, when you can't seem to grasp the text in my posts. Interesting. Show me, in any of my posts, where I said that works by itself would save somebody. Show me. Or show me, in any of my posts, that anything by itself will save you. I said it takes faith ---> AND <--- works. When James says that faith without works is dead, I'm going to believe him over you that says faith only will save me. Call me crazy.

There many verses in the Bible that speak relevant things about our salvation. Things like (paraphrasing here) "Unless you are born of water and Spirit you will not enter the kingdom of God", "unless you repent you will all perish", "He who believes and is baptized will be saved", "It is by grace you have been saved", "we are justified by faith".

Everyone of those pertains to our salvation, so which one is correct, because they all state something different? The simple answer is ALL of them, NOT just one (faith). What kind of faith do you think Romans 5:1 is talking about? Faith without works? Surely not, becuase James, who is just as inspired as Paul, said that faith without works is dead. No amount of spin doctering or perverting of the scriptures will change that simple fact.

[Kevin]

Freak,

It's amazing not one person dealt with my last post.

Besides the fact that I just dealt with it, as well as all of your other posts, I will have you know that I don't get off work until 7:00pm my time. I then try to spend some time with my loving wife and eat dinner and have a Bible study Monday through Thursday. Needless to say, my delayed responses are not because your posts are irrefutable. Not even remotely... I only have so much time.

[Kevin]

Ian,

I'm sure you will agree that baptism per se has no saving efficacy.

By itself, no. Belief and baptism, yes (Mark 16:16). Like I have been trying to tell Freak all this time, if anything is commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ, no matter what it is, then it is necessary for salvation because the Bible states very clearly that Jesus is the "author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. (Hebrews 5:9)

Now if one sits back and has all the faith in the world but does not obey His commandments, could that person be saved? Not according to the above verse or Rev. 22:14 "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life...".

...to refuse baptism is to reject the command of Christ. While such people may be saved...

I light of what I have just pointed out, that ones who do His commandments will have rights to the tree of life, how can you say that somebody can NOT do His commandments and still have rights to the tree of life?

[Kevin]

Ian,

If keeping God's commandments is required we are all lost. As, of course we are. Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

God knows full well that we aren't perfect. But He expects us, to the best of our imperfect ability, to keep His commandments. Knowing that we will stumble every now and then in sin, we have Jesus, who is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, to mediate for us. Praise God!

I noticed that you quoted:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You do realize that this is talking about the Mosaic law, don't you? Of course we aren't under that. That's the whole point of the book of Galations. The Galatian brethren were starting to go back to the old law of Moses by saying that circumsicsion was necessary. Paul is simply telling them that they aren't part of that any more since Christ has come.

Were Abraham & Rahab saved by keeping the Law? What were the works which showed their faith?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

What works did they perform you ask? The answer lies in the very verses that you quoted:

Abraham's work: He offered his son on the alter (verse 21). If he hadn't obeyed this command and done the work commanded, do you think that he would still have been called the Friend of God? No. Look how many times the Israelites disobeyed Gods commandments and He punished them repeatedly for it.

Rahab's work: Harboring the messengers and keeping them safe. If she didn't hide them then she would have been killed along with everybody else in the city when the Jews attacked the city. She was allowed to live because of the work that she did, as well as her belief in God.

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by Freak

You mentioned James as being evidence that we ought to have works in order to be saved. That is absurd and laughable. At what point will you have enough good works to be saved. By what objective standard do you use to test this? I would think perfection would do it. But the problem is wer're utterly sinful (Romans 3:23) we cannot attain perfection. By the way the Book of James was written to believers those whom already were saved by Christ. Yes, believers who know Christ should have good works. But good works does not save (Eph. 2:8-9).

If James had not lost his head in Acts 12 he would have agreed with Peter about the things Paul preached when Peter said....
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16 (KJV)

[Jason]

Returning back to the header, The heretics message to the world: be baptized to be saved. I would like to make the following comments:

To instrust a believer that water baptism should be performed before he can claim eternal security, is in my opinion adding to the "Grace thru Faith" Gospel. A christian that thinks, in any way, that there are commands that he needs to fulfill in order to enjoy salvation, has moved from the ground of Grace to law.

Kevin:

But He expects us, to the best of our imperfect ability, to keep His commandments

This cannot be further from the truth. All expectations that God has, have been met in the person of Jesus Christ. He has instead judged our imperfect abilities as He included us in Christ on the cross. All attempts made by us to keep His commandment will fail. He has gone through great pains to prove that to us. No good thing dwells in the flesh. Instead "grow in grace". You have an inheritance with Christ apart from the wills and wiles of the flesh.

You do realize that this is talking about the Mosaic law, don't you?

Did you know that we have been freed from all forms of law. Because the law applies to a man as long as he lives, but when he dies he is free. And you have died with Christ.

[HopeofGlory]

Amen to that Jason!

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal. 3:23 (KJV)
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal. 3:24 (KJV)
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal. 3:25 (KJV)

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin

James does indeed speak of Abraham and Rahab being justified by works.

But we must determine whether this is in regard to being "justified before God"(Gal.3:11) or if it is in regard to being "justified before man"(Lk.16:15).

And Scripture definitely states that "if it be of works,then it is no more of grace"(Ro.11:6).

So if Abraham was justified by works,then that must refer to him being justified before man,and not before God:

"For if Abraham were justified by works,he hath something of which to glory,BUT NOT BEFORE GOD"(Ro.4:2).

God,Who searches the heart,does not need to judge a man by his works.A man´s works are but an outer manifestation of the faith within that man.

But man can only judge by appearances.A man is justified by works when judged by his fellow man,for man cannot read a man´s heart.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Ian Day]

Kevin,

I think you have achieved a remarkable thing on any TOL forum :D

Jerry & Ian & HopeofGlory are all in agreement, together with Jason.
:) :) :) :)

Our works in no way make us acceptable to God. Our works are only acceptable because we are IN CHRIST:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[HopeofGlory]

Yes we do agree!:D

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the REMISSION OF SINS that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27

As we can SEE it is not ... be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38.... which is a work!

[Kevin]

Ian,

Our works in no way make us acceptable to God. Our works are only acceptable because we are IN CHRIST:

And just how do you think we become "IN CHRIST"?

Galatians 3:27

27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Thank you for making my point for me ;). You yourself said that works are only acceptable because we are in Christ. And James said that it takes faith with works for faith to be alive. Well, if somebody isn't baptized (a work), they are not "in Christ", and haven't "put on" Christ. If you're not in Christ, you're not with the Father, and you certainly won't be in Heaven.

Ephesians 2:8 doesn't mean that works do not play a role in our salvation. That just saying that it takes the grace of God to save us, for we are all sinners and fall short of His glory. God's grace saves us, but there are commandments that must be obeyed (works) to obtain that saving grace. If we do not obey His commandments, Gods grace won't be upon us.

[Evangelion]

Couldn't have said it better myself, Kevin. :D

[Kevin]

HopeofGlory,

that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26

And the person who has ture belief in Jesus will keep is commandments, which require unconditional obedience. Why do you think Jesus says "If you love Me you will keep My commandments." (John 14:15). If a person says he has belief and doesn't keep His commandments, then he is the proud owner of a dead belief.

As we can SEE it is not ... be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38.... which is a work!

If those people hadn't obeyed Peter and gotten baptized, I can assure you that those people's sins wouldn't have been forgiven. When Jesus commands it in the great commission, He expects it to be obeyed. And there's no way that you can convince me that baptism doesn't play a role in the remission of sins, because when Romans 6:3-6 tells me that it will make our bodies of sin done away with, and I believe just that.

[Kevin]

Evangelion,

Thank you for the support, sincerely! :)

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin,

You say that "a person who has true belief in Jesus will keep His commandments,which require unconditional obedience."

Are you telling me that since you believed you have completely obeyed the commandments of God?

When asked,"Which is the great commandment of the law?",the Lord Jesus named two commandments.The second is ,"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"(Mt.22:39).

Do you love your neighbor as yourself,Kevin?

In His grace,--Jerry

[Kevin]

Hello Jerry,

Are you telling me that since you believed you have completely obeyed the commandments of God?

In other words am I perfect? No. Not even remotely close. Putting it bluntly, if Jesus commands it, I try to do my best to my ability to follow those commandments. It's humanly impossible to follow 100% of the commandments 100% of the time. That's why we have Jesus there to mediate for us when we repent of our sins and ask for forgivness.

God knows all of our hearts. He knows who strives to obey His commandments and who doesn't. The thing is, when people know that something is a commandment, and chooses not to obey it, that is willful disobedience, and He won't tolerate it. But to the person who keeps His commandments and messes up every now and then and asks for forgiveness, to that person Jesus is the author of eternal salvation (Heb. 5:9).

[Ian Day]

What is saving baptism ?
What is salvation?
Ultimately eternal life, IN CHRIST. THe transformation of a sinner, once dead in trespasses & sins to a living relationship with God in Christ. (John 3, Eph. 2)

This salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, so that believers are said to be born of the Spirit (John 3) or born of God (John 1).

Jesus said that to have life, we have to eat his flesh & drink his blood. (John 6)

I think that all of us will agree that Jesus is speaking figuratively. He's not speaking of communion but the spiritual significance, of which communion is the sign.

Partaking of communion is not eating & drinking the flesh & blood of Jesus. Without already having eternal life, communion is not eating & drinking the flesh & blood of Christ.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

[Testament is if course COVENANT not "will."]

Is baptism essentially immersing a person in water, who then becomes a Christian & receives remission of sins? (suggested by Acts 2:38)

We need to understand "baptism" in terms of its Old Covenant usage, not in terms of ancient Greek recipes for pickles.

Immersion can be inferred from Romans 6, but it nowhere specifically taught in Scripture. Note that the Old COvenant baptism is sprinkling with the blood of the sacrifice. (or the ashes of a sacrifice mixed with water.)

Hebr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers (washings) BAPTISMS, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The significance of baptism is the application of the blood of Christ to the repentant sinner. It speaks to the sinner of the cleansing of his conscience by the precious blood.

And by submitting to baptism, the repentance sinner shows he is a repentant sinner, trusting in the blood of Christ for his cleansing from all sin, and that he is identifying himself with the people of God redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. And declaring his intention to serve the living God.

Hebrews shows that the blood of Christ is the blood of the New Covenant, compared with the blood of the Old Covenant:

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Peter speaks of believers being sprinkled with the blood of Christ:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

And baptism cleansing the conscience:
3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Note that it is not the washing but the significance. The antitype (like figure) of being in the ark is being IN CHRIST, by all that baptism signifies.

(Kevin)
If those people hadn't obeyed Peter and gotten baptized, I can assure you that those people's sins wouldn't have been forgiven. When Jesus commands it in the great commission, He expects it to be obeyed. And there's no way that you can convince me that baptism doesn't play a role in the remission of sins, because when Romans 6:3-6 tells me that it will make our bodies of sin done away with, and I believe just that.

Those who believed WERE baptised, and received all the benefits of the saving & cleansing blood of Christ. Those who rejected the message, & did not turn to God & refused baptism did not receive remission. Baptism was a sign to the new believers of the applied blood of Christ. They were baptised as new believers.

New believers, with new life, spiritual life, new hearts, express their faith in Christ.

Whether they are baptised by immersion, or sprinkling, or as infants who believe that theirs was a covenant baptism analogous to circumcision, the new life is real, and is expressed by active obedience & walking with God, in the Spirit. (Micah 6, Gal. 5)

[c.moore]

that is great knowledge Ian:) I agree with you.
I think it is obedience to or Lord Jesus to be baptized in water, like Jesus sence we try to follow jesus ways and do greater things as Jesus Christ we should be fully baptized to show other peolpe like a outward tesimony that we are giving up our old ways, and the sins are buried in the water, and when we come out the water we are beginning a new walk with Jesus Christ.
I believe the baptism will not save anybody, but it is a act of obedience, and it shows the love toward Jesus Christ, who is God.
The first and most important step is the spiritual baptism, and the washing of the blood of Jesus, that is the key to salvation.
I thought I can just add this to gain more knowledge.

God Bless
With all your getting get understanding. prov 4:7

Evangeist C.Moore

[HopeofGlory]

Kevin

If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death. You say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

Faith is required not water baptism which you agreed was a "work". If a work is required then salvation must be earned.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

We are justified by His blood and the only way that can be received is by faith.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free".

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)

Notice that it says baptized "into Jesus" not into "water". How are we to get into Jesus?...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)

Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith".

[Jason]

Kevin
But to the person who keeps His commandments and messes up every now and then and asks for forgiveness, to that person Jesus is the author of eternal salvation (Heb. 5:9).
A distinction:

Our flesh (the nature we inherited from Adam) can never be forgiven. Instead God judged it to death at the cross.
Our sins (the works of the flesh) are covered/forgiven by the blood of our Lord.

The fact that we mess up every now and then is the result of us still walking in the flesh. Even the good we do in the flesh is as filthy rags. Even after our new birth we still have the flesh nature. If there is no more flesh then why do we stumble still in many things? (James 3 v 2) The question is which life are you living from?

"For we know that whoever is born of God does not sin"
1 John 5 v 18

If you are living in dependence on the flesh you are under law, and because you are under law you manifest the fruits of the flesh. The strength of sin is the law.
If you are living in dependence on the Spirit you have no need of the law. You will manifest the fruits of the Spirit because you are free in your position in Christ. This freedom is our inheritance as we have been baptised into Christ, and He is now our righteousness, santification etc.

When we sin ours is the responsibility to confess and then to claim our forgiveness based on our position being in Christ. It is not our responsibility to try harder. It is because of this thinking that we fail in the first place. See Romans 7. Freedom from sin is a right not an effort, based on the the work of redemtion that the Father orchestrated for His good purpose.

William Kelly states:

Every believer is regarded by God as alive from the dead, to bring forth fruit [not works] unto God. The law only deals with a man as long as he lives; never after he is dead. 'For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.' And that is not at all what is said after a 'second blessing,' ... or any other step of imaginary perfection. We began with it ... I am identified with Christ dead and risen. It is no longer the law dealing with me to try if it can get any good out of me. I have relinquished all by receiving the Lord Jesus, and I take my stand in Him dead and risen again ... as one alive from the dead, to yield myself to God.

The Gospel supposes that, good and holy and perfect as the law of God is, it is entirely powerless either to justify or sanctify. It cannot in any way make the old nature better; neither is it the rule of life for the new nature. The old man is not subject to the law, and the new man does not need it. The new creature has another object before it, and another power acts upon it, in order to produce what is lovely and acceptable to God - Christ the object, realized by the power of the Holy Spirit

[Jason]

It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be free.

Hopeofglory I like it! :D

[HopeofGlory]

Jason

Thank you very much dear brother and may all the praise and glory be given to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ the God of heaven.

[Kevin]

Ian,

This salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, so that believers are said to be born of the Spirit (John 3) or born of God (John 1).

Actually John 3 states "water and Spirit". Not just Spirit.

Jesus said that to have life, we have to eat his flesh & drink his blood. (John 6)

Jesus also said that He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Why are you bringing Jesus's blood into this? I fully realize the signifcance of Jesus's blood. Without it, there wouldn't be any chance of salvation.

But Jesus's blood won't do anybody any good unless we obey His commandments and become baptized INTO CHRIST.

Immersion can be inferred from Romans 6, but it nowhere specifically taught in Scripture. Note that the Old COvenant baptism is sprinkling with the blood of the sacrifice. (or the ashes of a sacrifice mixed with water.)

It may not *specifically* be taught in scripture, but if we are symbolically buried into the death of Jesus through baptism, sprinkling would not come even close to burying somebody, but immersion is spot on with that. When somebody dies, do they take a few handfuls of dirt and throw it on them and say "Yup, he's buried now."? No, they completely cover him, just like immersion completely coverers people.

When Phillip batized the eunich, he baptized him in a river, certainly large enough for immersion. The many baptistry pools that are in Jerusalem, they're around 5 plus feet deep... why do you suppose that is? For sprinkling? Not even.

[servantofChrist]

Whoa Everybody!

I've been reading everyone's posts on works and baptism and I don't even know where to start!

It is more than astonishing, it is AMAZING, how some people will spend nearly a lifetime trying to "prove" that plain statements of the Bible don't really mean what they say!

Observe:

Acts 16:31 says, "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus and you will be SAVED."

Do you believe that the above statement teaches that BELIEVING in Jesus is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor. 7:10 says, "Godly sorrow brings REPENTANCE that leads to SALVATION."

Do you believe that the above statement teaches that REPENTANCE is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 10:10 says, "It is with the mouth that you CONFESS and are SAVED."

Do you believe the above statement teaches that CONFESSION is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

1 Pet. 3:21 says, "BAPTISM also now SAVES you."

Do you believe the above statement teaches that BAPTISM is necessary to be saved? You say, "No." Why? You tell me!

(A) Because it doesn't fit what I was taught
(B) Because I only choose to believe the first 3, not the 4th one
(C) Because baptism is a "work" and we're not saved by works
(D) Because I know that the verse plainly says that baptism saves us, but I've been taught by Pastor so-and-so that baptism does NOT save us. So... even though the scriptures say plainly that "baptism also now saves you," well, that's different from those other 3 you put up there before it. Don't ask me why, I just know it is. I'm going to have to go along with my pastor, after all, he's such a good man and has such a kind, sincere way about him. Everyone's known and loved him for so many, many years. Now how can you NOT believe someone like that if he says baptism is not necessary to be saved. No sir, I'll put my trust in Pastor so-and-so, rather in what the Bible says!

I have a question for all of you who are so hung up on the idea of "works&q