Thank You, President Bush [Archive] - Theology Forum

Aimiel

April 4th, 2003, 06:19 PM

Psycho, you need therapy.Yeah, there's nothing like a president who can:
* destroy 50 years of progress with the United NationsIf what has happened in this, when it is all said and done, hurts our 'position' with the biggest farce of a "Human Rights," organization (the U.N.), then maybe we need to remove ourselves from the U.N. and tell them to get out of the U.S.. The U.N. has made itself irrelevant in too many ways, too many times. If they had acted responsibly the last time we were in Iraq, and helped KEEP the peace that we brought the people of Iraq, we wouldn't have this twelve-year-long killing spree to have to put an end to.* alienate us from most of our greatest alliesIf the actions we have taken have alienated us from anyone who is a true ally, it has not been announced in the news yet.* destroy the international military cooperation established since the peacekeeping in YugoslaviaCo-operation, and a lack of co-operation? I don't see it.* operate our foreign policy by the medieval "get them before they even think of getting us" mentality.No, it is called, "Let's get the guys that are killing human beings wholsale (read MILLIONS)."* Ignore the world court at the Hague, which the US helped build up for international justice.Well, if the World Court wants to ignore the U.N.'s resolutions, and our soverignty, and desire for world peace, then we need to ignore them.* make the bill of rights almost seem irrelevent with his Patriot Act, and the soon-to-be-circulated Patriot Act II.
If I'm not mistaken, Bush and his cabinet want to turn America into a police state in order to protect us. What a guy.I don't feel that I have lost any rights, and welcome stricter security. Israel has very, very, VERY strict security, and they enjoy one of the sweetest free governments on earth. I believe that if there were more people who saw police as, "ministers of God," operating in their (the people's) behalf; that we would have a lot fewer problems in this country, and there might not ever be any more terrorism. We also need to be praying for our ministers, they only have as much guidance and revelation from the Lord as we obtain for them on our knees.

Do we just turn tail and run, because somebody is swinging a stick? No, we confront the BONEHEAD, and take away his stick. If he goes and gets another stick, we call the police. If the police have a problem with the guy, he might end up being killed, because of his disobedience. The police are not to blame. Neither is President Bush, nor the military (thank the Good Lord Jesus for them).

We need to get our minds straight, and keep our eyes on the Truth. He is our focus. The true enemy is the spirit which is driving men like Saddam, Milosevich, Hitler, and so on. I see that same spirit operating in your words.

BillyBob

April 4th, 2003, 06:24 PM

* destroy 50 years of progress with the United Nations
--The U.N. has made themselves irrelevant by passing resolutions and then not enforcing them. I thank GOD that G.W. Bush has the resolve to do what is best for this country, regardless of what a bunch of American haters [U.N.] think. The next step is to completely withdraw from the U.N. and make them find another country for their headquarters. May I suggest France?

* alienate us from most of our greatest allies
---What allies???? France? Germany? Russia? You must be kidding.....

* destroy the international military cooperation established since the peacekeeping in Yugoslavia
---We have experienced, in this war against Saddam, the 3rd largest coalition EVER! If that isn't military cooperation, what is?

* operate our foreign policy by the medieval "get them before they even think of getting us" mentality.
---Uhhhhhh........Saddam had 12 years to do the right thing. He had already gotten us, by ignoring resolutions. By firng at our planes consistently. By harboring terrorists. By making WMD availible to terrorists. By paying the families of 'suicide bombers. By helping Mo Atta before 9-11. The list goes on. And, by the way, I am all for getting them before they get us!! Hooooorrrahhhhhh!

-Colin Powell

aikido7

April 4th, 2003, 06:31 PM

What prevents most Christians from honoring the teachings of Jesus?

They seem pretty unambigous to me. And his parables seem to turn what we depend on and call "reality" upside down.

What would the Kingdoms of this world be like if God was the true ruler of the empire and Ceasar, Saddam and Bush were at the bottom? What will happen to the dogma of the pulpit when we begin to let Jesus finally speak for himself?

Most church-goers seem to want to tell others in low and sonorous tones to believe, believe and believe and berate others who do not agree with their fourth century formulations. What a great job it must be: bow down to a Nicean Creed which says NOTHING about Jesus' teachings and get up the next morning without having to change one whit about their own behavior.

No wonder some wag of an atheist once said that the best argument against Christianity is a Christian!

Jesus now, Jesus then, Jesus forever....

4 A.M. Prayer

April 4th, 2003, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
, "Let's get the guys that are killing human beings wholsale (read MILLIONS)
No, Saddam has not killed "millions"; I don't have all the facts, perhaps his bloodletting in Iran gets him in the neighborhood, but do the "fundie Enyart-ites" on board really care about 'Islamic' souls? Aren't they all going to Hell?
, and Israel has very, very, VERY strict security, and they enjoy one of the sweetest free governments on earth.

Pah-leez! How many bulldozing of new 'settlements' do we need?
And I've yet to hear any fundy address the issue of 'Christian' Palestinians!!! Don't they count? Last time I checked, fundy apocolyptic Christians were split down the middle on whether "Israel" meant a literal new nation Israel or a "spiritual" Israel of Christians converts accumulated over the last two thousand years. (I'm not pro-Palestinian, I'm more for than against the Israeli development since 1948 but they are now armed, loaded to the gills, and perhaps the 5th or 6th (or higher!) power in the world today and should step back and support a Palestinian state)

I believe that if there were more people who saw police as, "ministers of God," operating in their (the people's) behalf; that we would have a lot fewer problems in this country, and there might not ever be any more terrorism.
Are you operating out of some some "la-la land" mindset my friend?

We also need to be praying for our ministers, they only have as much guidance and revelation from the Lord as we obtain for them on our knees.
I would agree here; but could we include 'priests' here as well, or is any "Catholic" opinion not to be considered...

The police are not to blame. Neither is President Bush, nor the military (thank the Good Lord Jesus for them).

I support our troops, I think Saddam is a murderous thug as are his croonies and his sons (from what we've been given). but can I give another " Pah-leez"! Can we not liberate Iraq without all the arrogant "we will shock and awe" crapola?? And the "our missles are so 'precise' that civilian casualties will be virtually non-existant?"
I think the UN is a joke in many ways; but Prime Minister Blair has already told Pres. Bush that the UN needs to play a part in rebuilding Iraq. I agree. The world (and the brainwashed Arab world as well) needs to see that this is not some American invasion....Our American leadership needs to stops this "we are the bad arses of the world" crapola....
I'm rambling here, I'll stop; may the Lord bless all folks in harms way.

Knight

April 4th, 2003, 07:29 PM

aikido7, please attempt to post text relevant to the topic at hand.

NSMinistries

April 4th, 2003, 07:30 PM

May God Bless the USA... At least we have some real leadership in office these days. Bush has my prayers and support with the way he is leading this great country of ours...

Aimiel

April 4th, 2003, 07:44 PM

BAH-LON-KNEE...
If we had just HALF as many bombings and unrest as Israel, we would already be living in a police-state which would happen because the people cried to the government to, "... do something!!!" as they always seem to do in America. In Israel, they are operating with much more restraint and tolerance than any other government on earth. God bless Israel, I think she is TOO patient.

Israel is the Olive Tree. We are the branches which have been 'grafted in.' The Olive Tree will soon be grafted back into the One True Vine, as well.Are you operating out of some some "la-la land" mindset my friend?I am, it is called, "Christianity," and this Kingdom is not of this earth. You are yet carnal, or you would understand the truth expressed here. The police are ministers of God, acting on your behalf, if you stay within the law. I am, thankfully, NOT your friend.

There are reports I have heard of people talking to witnesses in Baghdad who have said that the military of Iraq is firing missles into Shiite neighborhoods, and blaming the US for the outcome.

The need here, is for us to not think too highly of ourselves, which is how all problems get started (original sin: pride). We need to see through our Father's eyes, and judge with His Judgement.:angel:

BillyBob

April 4th, 2003, 08:35 PM

4 am prayer wrote....

"I'm not pro-Palestinian, I'm more for than against the Israeli development since 1948 but they are now armed, loaded to the gills, and perhaps the 5th or 6th (or higher!) power in the world today and should step back and support a Palestinian state) "

---Barak accepted Clinton's proposal of a Palestinian State and Arafat rejected it!!!!! Israel is the good guy and Arafat is the terrorist, simple as that. See article below...

---Kofi Annan

Monday, June 24, 2002 9:14 a.m. EDT

Barak to Arafat: Too Late for Clinton Peace Plan

Reacting to Palestinian terrorist chief Yasser Arafat's belated offer on Friday to accept the terms of the peace plan proposed in December 2000 by then-President Clinton, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak said that it was too late.

"I would say that if he is serious we have to see it in action, namely; put an end to the terror, put an end to incitement and arrest these terrorists," Barak told Fox News Channel's Rita Cosby late Saturday.

"That's what we would expect from him before turning to a real peace plan," the ex-Israeli leader added.

Barak, who had accepted the Clinton plan that Arafat rejected, said also that he doubted the Palestinian leader's reversal was sincere.

"I'm quite doubtful he really means it this time," he told Fox News Channel. "It looks like a smoke screen. He feels the pressure coming closer to him as a result of his terrorism, his suicide attacks and series of bombings."

The Clinton proposal would have given Arafat control over all of the Gaza Strip and most of the West Bank, as well as sovereignty over East Jerusalem, the New York Post reported Saturday, before Barak's remarks.

"I'm prepared to accept [the Clinton peace plan], absolutely," Arafat told the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz on Friday.

Barak's comments come as a blow to Clinton supporters, who continue to hold out the hope that his plan will eventually provide the framework for a long-lasting peace agreement that would win him a Nobel Peace Prize.

Covenanter

April 5th, 2003, 12:05 AM

THe declared objective of the war was to remove Saddam Hussein & liberate the Iraqi people. We were given to expect a short & positive campaign, and a welcome by the people.

Instead we have a war of attrition, disruption of vital supplies, & extreme & ongoing suffering of the people we were trying to liberate.

"We" can win the war in a military sense by massive force, but that will mean utter defeat in terms of the objectives.

The legacy will be lasting hatred & distrust - and continued terrorism..

aikido7

April 5th, 2003, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Knight
aikido7, please attempt to post text relevant to the topic at hand.

topic at hand (posted by "webmaster, administrator):

"Mr. President, we thank you for your leadership in the war against terror, in the war in Afghanistan, and in Iraq. Thank you for seeing the connection between our own self-defense and the liberation of more than 40 million Iraqis and Afghans. And thank you that our soldiers protected innocent life in enemy territory more so than did the opposing governments."
--------------------------------

This topic was posted on the TheologyOnline Community website. My response was to ask, specifically, how Jesus' teachings compare and/or contrast to our war against terror, particularly in our terrible weapons used against that perceived terror.

If you read it carefully, you will discover my post is full of questions, lamentations and opinions regarding the present leadership and how that leadership plays against the servant leadership exemplified by the deeds of Jesus.

In my mind and heart, I actually think I am bring us BACK on topic!

Now I guess I need to ask, specifically, how my post has no relevance to "the topic at hand."

Knight

April 5th, 2003, 12:23 AM

aikido7....Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he (government) does not bear the sword in vain; for he (government) is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

aikido7

April 5th, 2003, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Knight
aikido7....

I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge the teachings of Jesus here. Please read my post again. I'm not talking about Paul, who gives us almost no information about the early Jesus other than he was "born of a woman."

(By the way, I was just wondering how our Founding Fathers got us out from underneath Britian's boot-heel if they really took Paul's "obedience to government authority" verses seriously? Remember, Knight, he was writing to the Roman church in the early part of the first century.)

Knight

April 5th, 2003, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by aikido7

I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge the teachings of Jesus here. Please read my post again. I'm not talking about Paul, who gives us almost no information about the early Jesus other than he was "born of a woman."

(By the way, I was just wondering how our Founding Fathers got us out from underneath Britian's boot-heel if they really took Paul's "obedience to government authority" verses seriously? Remember, Knight, he was writing to the Roman church in the early part of the first century.) So..... you do not believe that Paul's writings were directly inspired by Jesus, as Paul so clearly states?

Was Paul lying when he said...

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

aikido7

April 5th, 2003, 01:01 AM

Hmmm--theology and Christian history I will be glad to discuss with you later.

First, though, how--specifically--was my first post in this thread not relevant?

Was it off-topic? If so, why?
If it was on-topic, did you disagree with its premise? The first thread by "webmaster--administrator" read:

"Mr. President, we thank you for your leadership in the war against terror, in the war in Afghanistan, and in Iraq. Thank you for seeing the connection between our own self-defense and the liberation of more than 40 million Iraqis and Afghans. And thank you that our soldiers protected innocent life in enemy territory more so than did the opposing governments."

My response was:

What prevents most Christians from honoring the teachings of Jesus?

They seem pretty unambigous to me. And his parables seem to turn what we depend on and call "reality" upside down.

What would the Kingdoms of this world be like if God was the true ruler of the empire and Ceasar, Saddam and Bush were at the bottom? What will happen to the dogma of the pulpit when we begin to let Jesus finally speak for himself?

Most church-goers seem to want to tell others in low and sonorous tones to believe, believe and believe and berate others who do not agree with their fourth century formulations. What a great job it must be: bow down to a Nicean Creed which says NOTHING about Jesus' teachings and get up the next morning without having to change one whit about their own behavior.

No wonder some wag of an atheist once said that the best argument against Christianity is a Christian!

Jesus now, Jesus then, Jesus forever....

Before we start a textual examination of Paul's authentic letters and a discussion about his theology, I am first curious to know what is irrelevant in my text posting to "the topic at hand."?

Knight

April 5th, 2003, 01:16 AM

aikido7, I figured you would run from that last question. :rolleyes:

KS Presby

April 5th, 2003, 01:25 AM

This is what happens when you watch the BBC folks.

Read and study the indoctrination by the European media.

As for what Covenanter says (hmmmm...my church comes from a line of Scot Covenanters myself), the problems discussed have largely been resolved.

Over in England, (as well as ABC and CNN here in the states...Fox and MSNBC are doing a great job of reporting fairly), news on the war is all negative all the time. No good news is reported. You wouldn't have known that Iraqis welcomed us on the road to Baghdad watching that piece of Pravda crap called the BBC.

Roy

Originally posted by Covenanter
THe declared objective of the war was to remove Saddam Hussein & liberate the Iraqi people. We were given to expect a short & positive campaign, and a welcome by the people.

Instead we have a war of attrition, disruption of vital supplies, & extreme & ongoing suffering of the people we were trying to liberate.

"We" can win the war in a military sense by massive force, but that will mean utter defeat in terms of the objectives.

The legacy will be lasting hatred & distrust - and continued terrorism..

Flipper

April 5th, 2003, 01:29 AM

B. Enyart wrote:

I'm going to use my show on KGOV to help further this idea of leveraging the momentum of American justice. After stopping the killing of innocents in foreign countries, we need to do the same here at home. -Bob

...And with a swirl of Paco Rabanne and a little pink puff of cloud, he was gone!

aikido7

April 5th, 2003, 02:12 AM

Knight--

Hmmm--theology and Christian history I will be glad to discuss with you later.

First, though, how--specifically--was my first post in this thread not relevant?

Was it off-topic? If so, why?
If it was on-topic, did you disagree with its premise?

I will run toward your questions after you stop running away from my questions repeated above. Show me how my first post was not relevant to the topic. YOU brought it up first; explain it to me like I'm a five-year-old and then we can deal with your second question on Pauline theology. I'm not running from anything--but I can only focus on one thing at a time here. This is not a "free for all" but a reasoned and measured discussion on a message board.

Does that make sense to you?

BillyBob

April 5th, 2003, 06:33 AM

"THe declared objective of the war was to remove Saddam Hussein & liberate the Iraqi people."
--The objective is being met.

"We were given to expect a short & positive campaign, and a welcome by the people."
--That is exactly what has happened.

"Instead we have a war of attrition,"
--2 weeks?

" disruption of vital supplies,"
--Uhhh...it is a war. Perhaps you are unaware of the supplies that the 'good guys' are distributing among the Iraqi people. We have buiolt a water line and have been distributing water. We have been distributing food of all sorts. To say otherwise is deliberate, malicious disinformation.

" & extreme & ongoing suffering of the people we were trying to liberate."
--Uhhhh.....we are liberating them from 30 years of extreme and ongoing suffering. If you really cared about these people, you would be happy that Saddam is no longer in power to torture, kill, starve and terrorize them.

CincinnatiUU

April 5th, 2003, 07:07 AM

Dave,

The reality is that 'truth' and 'justice' have been coopted by many of our so-called born again buddies. Look, the hard fact is that most people who support Bush's war really have no idea what's going on. I have friends at the Pentagon...I have buddies who work in circles in D.C. If people only really knew...their hair would rise on end.

All I can say, is that if these idiots here really could move beyond 'their new truth and justice', resist listening to Sean Hannity for 5 minutes, and stop maligning God's name all to 'convince' hapless Americans this war is just we might actually have a constructive dialogue. Dave, these people are simply too 'Jim Jonesy' to listen. Before you know it, Bush will ask them to drink 'Kool-Aid with cyanide' in the name of 'truth and justice'. Willingly they will tip the cup back crying that Bush is the Messiah...hey it could happen.

Thinking people who competently disagree are out there. You won't find them here. I had a WONDERFUL. balanced conversation yesterday with a Republic Right Winger. Sweet man, bright fellow, and alot of excellent points. Guess what? He LISTENED AND CONCEDED POINTS I MADE AS WELL...he also is not foolish recognizing the government is a MUCH bigger thing than we know or think we know. He also knows about Theology Online...and well...we'll stop being mean.

Peace to the persecuted - Plato for the Blind,

UU

johntheb51

April 5th, 2003, 07:44 AM

I don't think God will ever ban liberal christians from the kingdom.

Actually, he doesn't have to.....the end up excluding themselves.

Liberal ideas, for the most part, are a creed of self-centeredness.

When you love yourself and your own comfort and your preferences in life above any other, then you show your true self.

I was a war protesting, intellectualist snob during viet-nam, but when I became a christian, the spirit showed me the underpinnings of my supposed "LOVE" creed. I loved drugs, and free sex, and I certainly hated all authority (which, by the way, came from God).
My hatred of the war did not come from a love of all man-kind. It came from my lack of willingmess to participate in warefare. I took the plank from my own eye and was able to see that I was a hedonistic hypocrit. At the same time, it becasme obvious to me that most of my generation were the same. The love children of the '60's were the yuppies of the 80's and 90's. Still looking for all the benefits of being an american without having to take responsibility fo ANY of the sometimes painful responsibilities.

BTW.....if you liberal christians also adhere to a creed of "Gospel light", (all mercy and grace to claim in your oun behalf with not even a trace of repentance and sanctification), forget it. God is not mocked. What you're sowing, that shall you also reap.............

John the B '51

BillyBob

April 5th, 2003, 09:48 AM

Mr. Cincinatti UU

I am happy to meet a brother of mine at this website of infidels. I agree that GW Bush is Satan and that Allah will exact retribution for his sinfull acts. I am happy to recruit you into the ranks of my elite martyrs and ask you to help me iliminate the evil empire of American conservatives. Although democrats are technically infidels, I will give them a special consideration and make them all honorary Muslims, starting with Tom Dashle and Nancy Pelosi [yummy, we do not get hot babes like her here in Baghdad. She doesn't even need to shave!].

Uhhh...where was I? Oh yes. Mr. UU, you will be gifted in heaven with at least 3 halfway decent looking, almost virgins [really, there are only so many virgins to go around and lately they have been working overtime with the large number of recently deceased Iraqi soldiers] if you will make your way to Baghdad, jump in a little white truck and ram an American tank. I realize that the odds seem to be in favor of the infidels, but Allah will be with you and you may actually put a small dent in the side of an M1 before they blow you to hell.....I mean heaven. You will be remembered forever as a great martyr and I will even promote you to General posthumously!

Allah be with you, my brother.
-Saddam

CincinnatiUU

April 5th, 2003, 01:46 PM

Again, I stand affirmed based on the responses thus far. Take heart Dave.

You see, until people can actually engage in thoughtful debate and stop this "God ordained War" nonsense, we are in for a lot more trouble.

Oh well...I am thankful for those of you who have open enough minds to challenge the Bob Enyarts, Pat Robertsons, and Jerry Falwells.

Peace be with all of you as you continue your religious fanaticism.

It's so chique these days...I bet some of you fanatics and ideologues rent some planes...same thing really...isn't it?

Who says I am free sex, pro-drugs, and have the hippie mentality? Major assumptions from ignorant folk. I really wonder if there will be an uprising of people in America who, after whining about how terrible the education system is (I am a product thankfully of hte public schools AND private education), folks can critically think. Ah BUT WAIT...standardized tests, conservative free market ideology and Jesus Christ will save the day.

We must be going in reverse...

KS Presby

April 5th, 2003, 02:52 PM

You are continuing to expose your intellectual midgetism by comparing conservative beliefs about what the govt. should do to a religiously motivated individual jihad.

What exactly are the things that will "make your hairs stand on end."

Look, Bush is not God and some things he has done I am not thrilled with (signing CFR for one). But, unless you are privy to his intelligence briefings, I suggest you be quiet.

I am interested in what your Pentagon friends have to say, but if they are low level folks, what they say ultimately does not have any validity.

BTW, this war is ordained by God, as everything a govt. does is ordained by Him.

Roy

Originally posted by CincinnatiUU
Again, I stand affirmed based on the responses thus far. Take heart Dave.

You see, until people can actually engage in thoughtful debate and stop this "God ordained War" nonsense, we are in for a lot more trouble.

Oh well...I am thankful for those of you who have open enough minds to challenge the Bob Enyarts, Pat Robertsons, and Jerry Falwells.

Peace be with all of you as you continue your religious fanaticism.

It's so chique these days...I bet some of you fanatics and ideologues rent some planes...same thing really...isn't it?

Who says I am free sex, pro-drugs, and have the hippie mentality? Major assumptions from ignorant folk. I really wonder if there will be an uprising of people in America who, after whining about how terrible the education system is (I am a product thankfully of hte public schools AND private education), folks can critically think. Ah BUT WAIT...standardized tests, conservative free market ideology and Jesus Christ will save the day.

We must be going in reverse...

BillyBob

April 5th, 2003, 05:18 PM

Mr. UU

I am anxiously awaiting your arrival in Baghdad. Please hurry, I am afraid that the infidels will soon be in control of the city and then I will be forced out of power. If that happens, there will be no more torturings, no more random executions, no more people forced to blow themselves up, no more people starving because the revenue from the oilfields, as well as the 'food for oil' program has been squandered by me and routed directly into my personal bank accounts. I will no longer be able to see my wonderful picture on every street corner. People will actually be able to set up a democratic government and vote on a President. Women may even be considered more than sub-human.

Please Mr.UU, I know you can help me retain my lethal grip over these dogs, I mean people. Gather up all your liberal freinds and come to Baghdad, it is beatiful this time of year. There is nothing quite so elegant as a suicide bombing under the green glow of burning buildings and allied missles exploding.

Allah speed, Mr. UU
-Saddam

-P.S. I may not be around when you get here.

Xancros

April 6th, 2003, 06:56 AM

Does Calvinist feel unborn babies are worth fighting for?

Calvinist

April 7th, 2003, 08:21 AM

Again I say if you all feel so strongly about the injustice of abortion and draw a parallel between what we are doing in Iraq, then why not put your LIFE where you mouth is?

No?

You won't because you are either cowards or you really don't care as much as you want other people to believe you do.

naima

April 7th, 2003, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
BAH-LON-KNEE...
Israel is the Olive Tree. We are the branches which have been 'grafted in.' The Olive Tree will soon be grafted back into the One True Vine, as well.I am, it is called, "Christianity," and this Kingdom is not of this earth. You are yet carnal, or you would understand the truth expressed here.
I SIMPLY MENTIONED THAT THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY SEEMS DIVIDED ON THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, LITERAL ISRAEL INTERPRETATION. YOUR ANSWER IS VERY ARROGANT

The police are ministers of God, acting on your behalf, if you stay within the law. I am, thankfully, NOT your friend.
NOT EVERY POLICEMAN ACTS IN PEOPLE'S BEST INTEREST; IF YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE IN THE LA-LA LAND I MENTIONED GANDALF. I HAD AN OFFICER STOP ME RECENTLY AND ISSUE ME A MERE WARNING AND BEFORE HE WAS DONE WITH ME (AND A TEENAGER RIDING WITH ME) LET FLY WITH SEVERAL 4-LETTER WORDS OF FILTH-A REAL MINISTER OF GOD WOULDN'T YOU SAY?
GANDALF, PERHAPS IF YOU KNEW ME YOU WOULD WANT TO BE MY FRIEND

There are reports I have heard of people talking to witnesses in Baghdad who have said that the military of Iraq is firing missles into Shiite neighborhoods, and blaming the US for the outcome.
I BELIEVE SUCH THINGS MAY BE HAPPENING; MY COMMENTS ARE BASED ON THE ARROGANCE OF MEN LIKE RUMSFELD AND CHENEY AND EVEN PRESIDENT BUSH WITH THIS SHOCK AND AWE, PRECISION WEAPONS THAT CAN'T MISS. ALSO, I'M NOT A FAN OF THE UN BUT THEY MUST HAVE A ROLE IN REBUILDING IRAQ; IT MUST BE SEEN THAT WAY BY THE ARAB WORLD OR WE WILL HAVE WON THE WAR AND LOST ANY SUBSEQUENT WORLD RESPECT OUT OF ALL THIS.

The need here, is for us to not think too highly of ourselves, which is how all problems get started (original sin: pride). We need to see through our Father's eyes, and judge with His Judgement.:angel:
I AGREE WITH YOU HERE ESPECIALLY THE FIRST SENTENCE EXCEPT THAT SO MANY HERE EQUATE NAME CALLING WITH "righteous judgement".

vincent

April 7th, 2003, 06:19 PM

I agree with the second half of the letter, but not the first. The truth be known we should not retaliate! God wants us to be nice! We kill little babies and allow deviant behavior so God let 9-11 happen. If your dad spanks you, you shouldn,t hit him back! If God wants saddam to strike us, then it will happen. We deserve it. Bush is making god angry on both accounts by killing gods children; in the womb ande in Iraq, Afganizstan etc..
Who said thank God for independance? we are all dependants and slaves to God.

KS Presby

April 7th, 2003, 11:38 PM

Man you are dense.

Care to Scripturally expound your idea of the cowardly nation being godly?

Roy

Originally posted by vincent
I agree with the second half of the letter, but not the first. The truth be known we should not retaliate! God wants us to be nice! We kill little babies and allow deviant behavior so God let 9-11 happen. If your dad spanks you, you shouldn,t hit him back! If God wants saddam to strike us, then it will happen. We deserve it. Bush is making god angry on both accounts by killing gods children; in the womb ande in Iraq, Afganizstan etc..
Who said thank God for independance? we are all dependants and slaves to God.

Jefferson

April 9th, 2003, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by vincent
God wants us to be nice!Can you quote us chapter and verse on that?

Jefferson

April 9th, 2003, 10:29 AM

I'm going to see how much the ad will cost to be put in my local paper.

Knight

April 9th, 2003, 01:56 PM

The ad runs TODAY in the Washington Times.

Click here (http://kgov.com/gallery/justice-momentum-ad.jpg) to see the actual ad.

Jefferson

April 9th, 2003, 03:19 PM

Bump

marc

April 11th, 2003, 08:53 PM

They that take the sword will perish with their sword and their doublespeak.
Preventive war, preemptive war, offensive war and war on suspicion undermine international law and the UN Charter. The UN was founded to overcome the scourge of war. The UN Charter limits the right of self-defense to an armed attack of a state.
May we become a people of humility and interdependence! May we clean the inside of the cup as well as the outside! May we recognize that our history is full of invasions and occupations and that special corporate interests often thwart the ideal of democracy! May we strengthen international law with its two foundations of reparations and self-determination!
Articles on human rights, economic ethics, liberation theology, the Jewish-Christian dialogue and trinitarian theology are available on www.mbtranslations.com.
May we build our lives on the rock of peace, not on the sand of imperial wars!
May we support our troops by bringing them home at once!
War and terrorism can only increase terrorism; nonviolence is stronger than violence. Jesus wanted truth to well up in persons. His method of indirect nonviolence calls us to an ethic of resistance and solidarity.
Dear friends, check out these two cartoons:
http://www.systemfehler.de/comix/usa.htm
http://www.portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=48400

TheFlame

April 14th, 2003, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Bob Enyart
I'm going to use my show on KGOV to help further this idea of leveraging the momentum of American justice. After stopping the killing of innocents in foreign countries, we need to do the same here at home. -Bob

I completely agree with you, Bob, and I pray for you the best on your show. God be with you, I know He's on your side.

Covenanter

April 15th, 2003, 01:37 AM

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm

This stage managed event took 90 minutes of BBC time, & replaced scheduled programmes. Who says BBC is a branch of Pravda ??

Brother

April 15th, 2003, 08:37 PM

Bob is right, Calvanist is an idiot. You should fight to protect the innocent in every situation. Wether at home or abroad, because their INNOCENT. Plus, it should not matter to you Calvanist, if Bob takes up arms or not. He must be predestined not to take up arms.

anon

April 17th, 2003, 11:23 AM

Bush is simply outlining our fears.

If we weren't so scared there would be no need for these actions.

Aimiel

April 17th, 2003, 11:56 AM

I just thank God that we have someone in our country's highest office that knows when to take out the trash.

4 A.M. Prayer

April 17th, 2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
I just thank God that we have someone in our country's highest office that knows when to take out the trash.

Trash? have you seen the children in Iraq? The innocent victims? OK the evil regime is wrong. But did anyone in the administration do their homework here?
I'll give everyone a 'barometer' of, shall we say, reasonble thinking here.

Thomas Friedman, NY Times. OK Liberal slant newspaper, BUT as with any world-wide acclaimed paper, they hire a wide variety of social and political views and Friedman is an opinion that demands attention! I'm not a computer geek, help me here. Friedman's comments during the entire war are right on the money. I would only ask that you read his commentary on the war. Can anyone pull up his 'links' or postings?
The guy IMO has his finger right on the pulse of what's going on in all this...

Aimiel

April 17th, 2003, 07:53 PM

The fact that civilians die in any war is always lamented, unless God directs otherwise. We did our best to avoid collateral damage. If you feel otherwise, then you do. I have not seen any evidence that we attacked too many people, indiscriminantly. When you take down a tree, often tearing up the roots causes some favored plants to die. Now, if he could have, I am sure President Bush would have just sent a single emissary to Iraq, who would have then placed Saddam under arrest, and then this whole campaign could have been avoided. The guy parked his troops in people's homes, placed tanks in between residences, and used the city as a 'shield.' How do you think we could have won this war, losing less than 150 men, against an army of the size of Saddam's any better? Would you have waged the war, if you were President? What would you do about 9/11? I wonder if you have ever been in the military? I doubt it. No, you don't even seem to have an opinion, because you are afraid you might fall down trying to defend it. You defer to someone else to do your defense. Well, our President did the same, he allowed the military to have their 'head,' in this war, and I think he has done better than any other country's leader, in the past (with the exception of maybe FDR, but in that case the US and UK's leadership roles were reversed).

aikido7

April 17th, 2003, 08:53 PM

Dear famous Gandalf7,

I am curious as to your answer to this question:

If 1.You have been assured that God has told you, or that 2.Your "God-given" common sense directs you or even if 3.A "New Age" cosmic universe has assured you:

that if you would only kill the innocent baby you hold in your arms, then--take your pick--

WORLD PEACE WOULD BEGIN

POVERTY AND SUFFERING WOULD CEASE and / or

THE WORLD AND ITS PEOPLE WOULD BE FREE OF EVIL AND TYRANNY FOREVER

...would you do it?

That's always been war, famous Gandalf7, and those have always been the reasons. Can you buck the secular system and love your enemies?

aikido7

April 17th, 2003, 09:59 PM

I guess I'll stir the pot a little more for Bob Enyart and this website by laying out some thoughts about Iraq, holy war and religious fundamentalism.

This war, like Ceasar's Gallia, seems to have three parts--the political decision to go to war, the military action and its religious undertones. The debate over the politics started months ago and will continue long after Baghdad is calm. Every one of us needs to take part in this debate. This is a democracy. Our opinions matter.

Whatever our politics, though, the American men and women in the Middle East deserve our respect and our support. But let me be clear: disagreeing with the war is not a betrayal of our troops, any more than agreeing with the war serves them. We can certainly support the firefighters without supporting fire.

What bugs me is the sanctimonious religiousity underlying the war. There is too much talk of "holy war." Iraqis pledge jihad. Too many Muslims and Christians see this war as Christianity versus Islam. George Bush and other short-sighted and shallow politicos talk in absolutist terms, as if the conflict was a moral contest between two cosmic forces: good and evil, truth and lie, God and Satan. That is a terrifying lens to view any conflict. Holy wars don't end and holy warriors don't know when to stop. There are no treaties for resolving absolutes. Holy warriors cannot back down--even if no one else is left standing.

How did political strategy get so moralistic and absolutist? I think it is to be found in the past 40 years of surging fundamentalism, both in America and the Middle East. The similarities, patterns and parallels between Iran and the Bible Belt are sobering. This absolutist view of things has grown from fringe to prevalent, from intellectual laughingstock to political potency. This has been an era of "Big Lies." One lie has been the deliberate distortion of Scripture (paralleled in Islam by the ignorant distortion of the Koran). Through sarcasm, intimidation, faux scholarship (and sheer volume), Christians have grabbed the field of Biblical inquiry and committed idolatry by constructing a God who suits their politics. Interestingly, this God has little to do with the God known by Abraham or called "Father" by Jesus of Nazareth.

Another troubling lie has been dualism, a division of reality into polar opposites, competing absolutes, which cannot coexist. This country survived its first 400 years by restraining Puritan rigidity and Catholic exclusivity, by declaring that this New World would not repeat Europe's terror of holy wars.

Fundamentalism, however, cannot tolerate tolerance.

The third lie has been polticization. Fundamentalists can bring in the votes--the so-called "Moral Majority" was neither moral or a majority, but its claims scared many politicians. Serious debate on moral issues became impossible. Political stances were labeled "God's will."

Most believers, meanwhile, have stayed largely silent, focusing on internal matters (perfecting liturgy and redressing gender inequalities). They have been intellectually lax and politically naiive, and are just as ignorant as their fundamentalist brothers and sisters of biblical scholarship. The status quo has allowed fundamentalism to shape an entire generation's comprehension of Scripture. They have likewise ignored Jesus' parables and aphorisms, failing to translate them into the living water for the parched postmodern desert we all find ourselves wandering across. One major disheartening thing has been the dismissal of fundamentalists as silly and lower class. This labeling keeps many from understanding the fundamentalist mindset as--among many things-- a natural human reaction to complex world events.

But the Big Lies remain. And if Big Lies eventually come to be seen as truth, then "the ruler of this world," as Jesus named him, will have a field day.

Aimiel

April 18th, 2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by aikido7
Dear famous Gandalf7,

I am curious as to your answer to this question:

If 1.You have been assured that God has told you, or that 2.Your "God-given" common sense directs you or even if 3.A "New Age" cosmic universe has assured you:

that if you would only kill the innocent baby you hold in your arms, then--take your pick--

WORLD PEACE WOULD BEGIN

POVERTY AND SUFFERING WOULD CEASE and / or

THE WORLD AND ITS PEOPLE WOULD BE FREE OF EVIL AND TYRANNY FOREVER

...would you do it?

That's always been war, famous Gandalf7, and those have always been the reasons. Can you buck the secular system and love your enemies? If I could make sense of this jumble of a mis-guided question, I might be able to answer it.

I think it might be akin to one of the 'trick' questions that Jesus fielded almost daily while in Jerusalem. It is designed to make the audience think that the one posing the question is wise beyond the reaches of mere mortals. Thank God that I don't have to sacrifice my child to appease you, or my government or any religous customs of my country. But, on the other hand, He did. He chose so sacrifice the only Child He has ever had, Jesus, and there is peace (in the spirit-realm), and riches have been given to the poor (in the Kingdom of Heaven, which is at hand), and the people of God have been empowered to deliver ALL who are oppressed of the devil. Now, whether we ever finally realize that and stand up (like a mature man) and make use of the power and authority that has been given to us, well, that's another thing. I believe that we will, one day... hopefully soon. I also believe that Christians are free of evil and tyranny, forever, in the Spirit, which is greater than the natural. We have peace with God, we walk in His Authority and Anointing, and have Heaven as our dwelling place. All thanks to God, for letting go of the Child He held, and allowing Him to be killed. Well, He also rose from the dead, and many still don't believe His Words.

billwald

April 18th, 2003, 12:32 PM

>The innocent victims?

I know what this phrase means when said by non-Christians, but not when used when by Christians, especially Reformed Theonomists.

I thought everyone was born a sinner, "born in trespasses and sins." I thought David "confessed" that he was a s sinner before he died.

So there are no "innocent victims," only people whose sins have not been discovered. Kill them all and let God sort them out.

aikido7

April 18th, 2003, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
If I could make sense of this jumble of a mis-guided question, I might be able to answer it.

The length and force of your reply shows a defensiveness not needed. If you cannot get beyond the dead literalism in my musings, don't feel bad!

How about if I pose it this way--

Are you willing to kill innocent people (collateral damage, friendly fire, or even wilfull murder) to bring about peace IF you are personally convinced by God, your common sense and/or another higher authority that if you do so lives will be saved, peace will ensure and poverty and tyranny will be erradicated?

It's not a trick question. I am not a priest and I don't think you are Jesus. The question is posed as a supposition because it matches the contours of real reasons we go to war. When it comes down to basic facts, war (killing other people--usually innocents) is always justified by the reasons I have outlined above.

So I am curious as to what your answer would be. I know what mine is.

And speaking of Jesus, he said "love your enemies...do good to those who persecute you." He either said it or he didn't. You can't have it both ways. Mainstream biblical scholarship says that in the Bible there are obvious things Jesus said and obvious things his followers put into his mouth. But the overswhelming consensus is that he did counsel us to love our enemies and do good even to the wicked. You can't have it both ways or try to bury what he said in belief or dogma to avoid facing his challenge.

Blessings to you!

Aimiel

April 18th, 2003, 08:49 PM

But, please don't put me in the fish-basket, just catch and release, OK?Originally posted by aikido7 Are you willing to kill... (blah, blah blah) so lives will be saved... (blah, blah blah)?Yes. It's not a trick question. I am not a priest and I don't think you are Jesus. The question is posed as a supposition because it matches the contours of real reasons we go to war. When it comes down to basic facts, war (killing other people--usually innocents) is always justified by the reasons I have outlined above.If there were no justification it would be 'agression,' and not war, such as what Iraq did to Kuwait.So I am curious as to what your answer would be. I know what mine is.I thought you said it was not a 'trick' question.And speaking of Jesus, he said "love your enemies...do good to those who persecute you." He either said it or he didn't. You can't have it both ways. Mainstream biblical scholarship says that in the Bible there are obvious things Jesus said and obvious things his followers put into his mouth. But the overswhelming consensus is that he did counsel us to love our enemies and do good even to the wicked. You can't have it both ways or try to bury what he said in belief or dogma to avoid facing his challenge.Well, interpretation of scripture is up to individuals. I don't think that any of our soldiers were harmed (before being sent to the Operation Iraqui Freedom Theater) by the soldiers they were ordered to attack, they were defending the basic rights of others; namely the people of Iraq as well as their neighbors. No, if someone were to treat me wickedly, (though this never has happened to me, I have always been treated fairly by everyone I have ever come across) I would not return evil for evil, but rather forgive them and allow them to have their way with me. I would, however, defend my wife or any one of my five children (not to mention countless bretheren in the Lord as well as MOST of my family members) with my very life, and in such dire circumstances might be forced to ressurect some of my Navy training and terminate, with extreme prejuidice. I also have sued people (non-Christians) because I have to look out for my family, it's a stewardship thing.Blessings to you! And I bless you. I know that God has and does and will bless you as well.

aikido7

April 20th, 2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
But, please don't put me in the fish-basket, just catch and release, OK?

No one can put you in bondage when you are right with the Lord.

...If there were no justification it would be 'agression,' and not war, such as what Iraq did to Kuwait.

The human secular trap is to always find "justification." That way we can keep focused on the speck of dust in our brother's eye and--after carefully ignoring the planks of wood in our own eyes--always have "good reasons" for any act we do. Even if it is evil. Because our intentions are "good." We focus on our "good intentions" and not on the not-so-good results of our good intentions.

...Well, interpretation of scripture is up to individuals..

It is an interesting idea that some believers are doing away with mediation between the Written Word and our interpretation of it. I am just surprised to hear that from you. In our purest form, we Baptists used to have what we called the priesthood of the believer, the notion that every individual has the right to interpret Scripture as he or she sees fit. Unfortuantely, that old doctrine has been secularized and minimized through the years. You don't see it much anymore...

I don't think that any of our soldiers were harmed (before being sent to the Operation Iraqui Freedom Theater) by the soldiers they were ordered to attack, they were defending the basic rights of others; namely the people of Iraq as well as their neighbors.

You have valid reasons which you have imposed upon our troops. I think that you are doing the best you can do given the information and beliefs you have. I just want to give Jesus a fair shake, whose parables and aphorisms are being trumped by propositional and dogmatic theology.

We have seen the result of what has happened--even on this website-- when the Ruler of This World has his way. Attacks, put-downs, scriptural ignorance and biblical illiteracy run rampant--so much so that one day a year has to be declared so that people must be forced to post only "nice things." I wonder how many tables in the Temple that strategy will help overturn....

Only getting back to Jesus will help us and most of us haven't yet figured out how to translate his teachings to the modern ear. If we can just let Jesus begin speaking for himself again, the church will change. When Jesus comes back in glory, the church will be a redundancy.

Aimiel

April 20th, 2003, 11:08 PM

Personally, I believe that if George Bush (Jr.) were president in 1940 or so, that Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin would have been 'de-throned,' much the same way that bin Laden and Saddam have been today. Think of the lives we could have saved. My dad might not have gotten the two clusters he has on his Purple Heart, and he would not have gotten the Silver Star. He might have kept his left kneecap, and been healther now (he is 90 years young). I also belive that we have to do things that are considered evil by some, but the sin we live with is bringing these thing upon us. I also thank God for the police, who carry weapons of lethal force, for a good reason. They kill bad people, when they are forced to, by the situation. This thing in Iraq is one of those. That is my opinion. :rolleyes:

mrsnacks

April 21st, 2003, 04:38 AM

famous gandalf : Well how about China ? Or Russia ?? Or N. Korea ??? Why haven't the Bush's dealt with these abusive regimes ??? Why did the US encourage Sadam to invade Kuwait ?? Documentation of that is available at infowars.com

This war was planned well before 9 11. and why no WMD so far. ?? Powell says we will find the WMD no matter what .

I am critical of the US policies. It seems christians in general have let blindness set in when it comes to the political scene. You talk of Bush himself as if he were Christ. You believe everything you hear on CNN or Fox as gospel truth.

The questions reporters asked before those press conferences you see on the tube are staged. what I mean is all questions must be approved ahead of time . So much for freedom of speech. My dad was in Vietnam and it is a known fact the US used chemical warfare there. Why hasn't any reporter asked the Pres or Powell ---"Didn't the US supply Iraq with chemical and biological weapons in it's war with Iran ?? Where was our concern then ?? How about Bush's business and oil deals with Bin Laden ?? No one seems to ask these questions at these conferences.

This war I believe has nothing to do with freeing the Iraqi people. That's just a recent addition. What about the recent demonstrations in Iraq demanding the Americans go home ?? The US has it's propaganda also ?? Wake up !!!

Aimiel

April 25th, 2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by mrsnacks
famous gandalf : Well how about China ? Or Russia ?? Or N. Korea ??? Why haven't the Bush's dealt with these abusive regimes ???Well, the Koreans appear to be pushing forward in line to be next.This war was planned well before 9 11. and why no WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) so far. ?? Powell says we will find the WMD no matter what . Many of the officers who have been imprisoned or detained have testified that they began to ship the WMD to Syria.[/QUOTE]Maybe they'll be in line just after Korea.I am critical of the US policies.NOOOOO. What makes you say that?It seems christians in general have let blindness set in when it comes to the political scene. You talk of Bush himself as if he were Christ. I see things pretty clearly, on all sides of the issues I concern myself with. I don't think politics is something people should be ignorant of. I believe that the whole spectrum of Americans are lax when it comes to current events and political stance. I believe that is the reason (one of the biggest ones) that this country is going to hell in a handbasket. Too few people standing up for what is right and squelching the voices of evil-doers, all over the world.You believe everything you hear on CNN or Fox as gospel truth. I know you do; but what do I do?The questions reporters asked before those press conferences you see on the tube are staged.You're seeing a whole team of psychiatrists, aren't you?My dad was in Vietnam and it is a known fact the US used chemical warfare there.How come the United States Government doesn't know about this? Why has it never been proven? Did they just have the soldiers deliver these weapons, and then kill them? Where is the 'smoking gun?' Why hasn't any reporter asked the Pres or Powell ---"Didn't the US supply Iraq with chemical and biological weapons in it's war with Iran ??Because to be a reporter, you have to have a certain amount of common sense. Where was our concern then ??UM, could it be that Bush was not President at that time? How about Bush's business and oil deals with Bin Laden ?? No one seems to ask these questions at these conferences.Maybe because these things are yesterday's news; duhh. This war I believe has nothing to do with freeing the Iraqi people. That's just a recent addition. Thank God we decided to free them, after we ended the regime of a merciless dictator (original intention). Should we start beating them, and gassing them; which is what Saddam was doing, before we liberated them.What about the recent demonstrations in Iraq demanding the Americans go home ??Now, you don't really believe that the majority of Iraqi's want the US out of their country because you saw a few radicals protesting while you were religiously watching CNN and Fox, do you?The US has it's propaganda also ??As does every country. Wake up !!! Yawn, ah... uh... uhmmm... what time is it?

Knight

April 25th, 2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by mrsnacks
This war I believe has nothing to do with freeing the Iraqi people. That's just a recent addition. But now that they are free...... is that a good thing or a bad thing?

mrsnacks

April 25th, 2003, 05:26 PM

famous gandalf :yesterdays news duh ? That's your response??

I'm beginning to think that the best thing for me to do in this debate is to withdraw. Christians generally support the war effort. Everyone really does, pro or con, for our tax dollars are going to pay for this war.

I talked to a friend of mine yesterday who produces talk radio shows . She is a christian and works in the secular field of radio.She could never be involved in christian radio because of her criticism of US policies and that she isn't a dyed in the wool Republican. I guess according to most christians the Repubican party is God's party. It doesn't matter who is in the White House everything is basically big government as usual as far as I see. I don't see any significant changes. The powers that be own both parties. We are made to think we have a choice . My friend is not a democrat either but involved in the Liberatarian party.

So back to my point --you have Christians that believe it is a just war and a few that believe it isn't.

I think you have made up your mind to believe what you want to believe. You talk of the evils of the Sadam regime and if what I have seen and heard is true then does the US have a right to invade another country when it is obvious that they pose no threat militarily? Are we fighting Israel's war ??

You say Syria or N Korea's next. Why ??? No one has the right to have WMD except us ??? That seems pretty arrogant. Believe me i don't think the weapons should be around in the first place but they are. And we used the A bombs on Japan on a civilian population. But Gandalf would say that's old news . Why is China allowed to have and develop these weapons ??? Why Russia ?? You talk of the atrocities committed by Sadam but compare it to the atrocities in China ,Vietnam , Cambodia and Russia.

My point is that you have made up your mind already and no one can talk you out of your total loyalty to this country and it's policies .You can continue in your choosing to be blind .

I think it's best for me to just back out of this forum. be careful that Bush doesn't replace the Lord as Lord in your life. You talk of Bush like he is Christ. Have you accepted Bush into your life ?

Knight

April 25th, 2003, 06:06 PM

Personally I am not a "Bush fanatic", in fact I don't care for either party (The are both far too left wing for me).

Yet I support this war effort and I think in this case Bush did a marvelous job in his strategy.

One less wacky "Hitler-esk" dictator in the world is a good thing.

As is removing a regime that murdered and tortured millions of people.

Aimiel

April 25th, 2003, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by mrsnacks I talked to a friend of mine yesterday who produces talk radio shows . She is a christian and works in the secular field of radio.She could never be involved in christian radio because of her criticism of US policies and that she isn't a dyed in the wool Republican.This problem is one of the epidemics of the church, though certainly not the worst. It is the believer who is afraid to stand up to 'authority,' and do the things their conscience dictates. Why doesn't she try to do something about this obvious flaw she sees in the Body of Christ? That is why we aren't growing, because we aren't taking responsiblity. Another pet peeve of mine, is people who talk about 'so-and-so' who does this sin and that sin; and their life is one of the most sinful in the church. Another is the glutton-precher, saying, "If you sin, you aren't a child of God." My all-time least favorite is the one that says, "All you Christians..." or "All you liberals..." which is just another way of fomenting hatred.

I'm sorry Mr. Snacks, I just got done with a really long post to NuMessJew, and Lion King is about to start, and I promised my daughter; maybe next time I'll be able to give you more of my thoughts. Hope you understand. Anna is three years old. She is my youngest of five. :thumb:

Knight

April 25th, 2003, 07:34 PM

fg7 - make sure you properly bracket your code...

variable

:D

mrsnacks

April 26th, 2003, 01:59 AM

Gandalf 7 : Are you talking about taking a stand for truth or for Christ. What i mean is that we have to use wisdom. I pick my battles and I'm sure you do to.

My friend along with myself have tried to inform members of the church on issues. But we have found many christians that stick their head in the sand only wanting to hear what they want to hear. They are not open .

I must admit I have done that in the past , but I have always prayerfully tried to be open to another point of view. Mine may be wrong . Aren't we supposed to test all things ??

I once held to the futurist view for 30 years following Lindsey, impe, Ice, LaHaye, and the rest of the self proclaimed prophecy experts. I took an apologetic class under the late Bahnsen and he started in on eschatology and shared why he believed that the Great Tribulation was a past event etc. I immediately closed my mind to what he was saying. I walked away convinced that Bahnsen had philosophy and apologetics down pat but he is way off on eschatology. I was convinced that we were living in the end times and the antichrist would appear "shortly."Strange that "shortly" seems to never arrive.

It was not until I read "Last Days Madness " and with the help of Dee Dee and others that I finally tested my futurist dispensational views. I was along with my wife became orthodox preterists. That was a year ago.

The point is that I wasn't ready to make that change years ago in Bahnsen's class. I think we all seem to have our blind spots.

And that brings me to this subject. This friend of mine who is a historian and very brilliant lady turned me on to "Tragedy and Hope " many years ago.How many christians have read that book ??? You are lucky to have 2 per thousand. We had long discussions about history and the political scene. Believe me it was mind shattering to hear another view which was supported by a lot of documentation and facts. It was depressing to me to hear that our government and what is taught in schools were lies.

I have taken stands and found out that I have to pick my battles and sometimes keep my mouth shut. I have been called anti-semitic , a heretic, an unbeliever, and a troublemaker because my views aren't those of the mainstream church.

Knight : It is a good thing that Sadam is outta there. But it isn't good thing that our government isn't being upfront and honest to the American people and lying out there elbows about why we are in Iraq.

You say you are not a Bush fanatic ?? What do you mean by that and why ??

It's about control, power, oil, and a new world order. It's that simple.

Sealeaf

April 26th, 2003, 02:47 AM

If "Christian" has come to mean the same thing as "conservative" then Christianity is in trouble because one thing Jesus was not was a conservtive. He was a radicle revolutionary.

aikido7

April 26th, 2003, 09:26 AM

Compassion is not a relationship between the healer and the wounded--it is a relationship between equals. Only then when we know our own darkness well can we be present with darkenss of others. Compassion becomes real when we recognize our shared humanity.

Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

I beleive all religions begin with the cry "Help."

Aimiel

April 26th, 2003, 10:19 AM

Jesus said, "I am The Way, The Truth and The Life," so I believe that when we take a stand for Truth, it is Him we are standing for. That would include standing against 'believers' within the Body of Christ that try to supress someone's point of view, simply because it doesn't agree with theirs. Now, if someone won't endure sound doctrine, they have a problem with their relationship with God. He knows how to take care of His own, and how to let them know when they are talking to a stranger.

I, too, have found many Christians who stick their heads in the sand regarding anything that relates to their own sin, but they are poor examples of Christ. I have known many who are responsible, responsive and very dynamic. I pray that I might become as mature as many that I know, one day.

I believe that we are to rightly divide the Word of Truth. The Sword of the Spirit is described as a double-eged sword for a reason, the Word not only has the ability to divide asunder between the soul and the spirit of the people who the Word is spoken to, but the person speaking has to watch very carefully how he uses his skill in the use of the Word, because the sword is very sharp on that back side, and will cut him, if he is not careful. We often learn deep things about ourselves when ministering to others because of this. His Word is Life and it is Spirit. I remember, years ago, hearing about a preacher who was parroting Oral Roberts. He had memorized some of his sermons, and was going around with a tent and bilking people out of money. Well, one day he listened to one of his own sermons as he recanted it from memory, and ended up getting saved. The Word works. I have seen God use some very unlikely persons to share the Gospel. As far as testing all things, well, I let the Word do that. I have yet to be led astray, and have always been led by Him. He said He would never leave me or forsake me. I'm going to listen to Him.

As far as eschatology, I again defer to the Ancient of Days. He knows the end from the beginning. His Judgement is what the Christian should be praying for, not the appearance of some demon-posessed world dictator. I am not very eloquent, so I won't try to outline my 'doctrine,' but if you would like to read a statement of beliefs with which I fully agree, you can look here. (http://www.kimclement.com/doctrine/doctrinal_belief.htm) I believe that the average Christian spends less than one hour a year reading his Bible. I believe that if there is any failure in the life of a Christian, it is because of a failure on their part to study and to pray. God is not a failure, and He is conforming us to the Image of His Dear Son.

How many Christians have read, "The Final Conflict," by Rick Joyner? The revelations that are in that book, I believe, are exactly like what Jesus did, after His ressurrection, they open the Scriptures. Too many Christians are willing to settle for 'business as usual,' and are all too willing to say, "...Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." -- II Peter 3:4 This is too much in agreement with the world, as far as I am concerned. I believe that Jesus' presence stirs things up, which is why many wanted to put Him to death; the demons in them were infuriated. We should have the same reaction, wherever we go. I believe that it is the job of the Christian to bring the Gospel to the whole world. When we encounter another Christian, it should be to encourage, build up and edify. When we encounter someone who is lost, we should give them what they need to hear, not what their itching ears tell them they want.

I hope you continue to stick to your guns, and defend your point of view. You were designed by your Creator to be unique. You are the only person who can be you. If someone else were to apply for the job, not only should they find that you are being you better than anyone else ever could, but that you are so different and unique, that there are qualities about you that they see, and begin to emulate. Imitation is not the greatest form of flattery, it is how we grow, as a race. Humans are unique in this, but I digress. I think you get my point. I told you I was not very good with words. As far as mainstream churches go, I don't know of very many that have 75% of what they believe or do approved of by the Lord. The ones that people call 'mainstream,' are sometimes the most dangerous.

I don't think President Bush is 100% correct. I have to give him credit for his ability (unlike many other 'professing Christian' presidents) to share his faith. I believe that he is a Christian, and that he prays for this nation. That does not make him right, or perfect; but I do thank God for His divine appointment. He is the One who lifts up one and puts down another. I also don't believe all the left-wing mumbo-jumbo about this being about oil or about Israel. I believe that the motives are what the President said they are, ousting a cruel dictator, with designs of ruling all Islam.

I also don't believe that President Bush had designs on being as powerful throughout the Middle East as he has now become. I have seen too much of him to know how power-hungry he is not. Did that come out right? I don't think that someone looks for more responsiblity, if they are intelligent, they look for ways to delegate authority. I believe this president is one of the best delegators we have had in our land's highest office. That is a very good thing.

aikido7

April 26th, 2003, 04:55 PM

I certainly don't beleive we deserved what happened to us on September 11th, nor do we deserve the sort of governments we have had over the last 40 years. But our governments have brought this upon us by their actions all over the world. Americans have no idea of the extent of our government's mischief. We are not told about these things or are told we attacked them because, say, Noriega is the center of all world drug traffic and we have to get rid of him, so we kill some Panamanians in the process. Actually we killed quite a few. Then we kidnap Noreiga, their leader, a former CIA man who worked loyally for America, arrest him, try him in an American court that has no jurisdiction over him and lock him up. And no one knows why.

Saddam and the Afghans had nothing to do with 9-11, but Saudi Arabia did. It seems like Osama was involved, but we don't really know. Our commanding general was asked how long it was going to take to find bin Laden and he looked surprised and said "Well, that's not why we are here." Oh no? So what was it about? The Taliban were bad people and they put burlap sacks on women's heads and Bush cares about women's rights?

We had planned to occupy Afghanistan in October and someone launched a premptive strike against us. They knew we were coming and wanted to throw us off guard.

I think we went to Afganistan not to get Osama and wreak vengence but because the Taliban--who we had installed during the Russian occupation and was getting too flaky--and Unocal (the California consortium) had made a deal with the Taliban to get a pipeline to the Caspian, the richest oil reserve on the planet. So if we could get oil by pipeline through Afghanistan to Pakistan to Karachi to ship it off to China, whichever big coumpany could cash into it would make a fortune. Any bit of study will show you that all these companies go back to Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld or someone else in the oil and gas junta which--along with the Pentagon, governs a large part of our foreign policy.

And now our government is busy re-writing the history of the Iraqi war. They have weapons of mass destruction. Oh--they destroyed them all before we attacked. No wonder we don't want a neutral third party like the UN in Iraq to find out. If we're in charge of looking, I am sure we will "find" something--if only a paper trail. Saddam was responsible for 9-11, even though our own CIA said "no way." If you say anything against our government, your rights will be bulldozed and smashed like plastic CDs.

As in biblical scholarship, we are not idiots. But we have been cowed. Cowed by media and church disinformation, a skewed view of reality and atrocious taxes that subsidize this perpetual war machine. And don't get me started on how we happily pass along Scriptural nonsense in the guise of truth....

mrsnacks

April 27th, 2003, 07:16 AM

Aikido & : I couldn't have said it any better. thanks for your input. I was beginning to withdraw from any more dialogue on this subject being that most christians are so gullible to believe that Jesus didn't have to die for the sins of Cheney , Bush , and our government leaders because they are righteous and sinless. I guess people blind themselves from the thought that our government hasn't been corrupted.

I wonder why bids were not allowed from other companies in the rebuilding of Iraq ?? the government selected and gave out the contracts and of course Cheney and Bush and other government leaders benefit. we blow the place up and then rebuild it with our tax dollars.

I love what this country originally stood for. It appears we have made --power, greed , and lying, and money our gods.

Let me ask you. Where is the money coming from to pay for this war with the supposed tax cuts ????? The media ain't talking. I'm just concerned.

Our Lord Jesus is our Savior. May we never forget that.

boundtoforget

April 28th, 2003, 11:57 AM

According to the Webmaster's quote:

Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed. - Proverbs 27:5

So here goes ...

Bush, Blair, et al. attempted to justify this war based on various and shifting pretexts:

First we had 'Saddam is a threat'.

- to whom, and when?

The we had 'weapons of mass destruction'

None have been found.

Then we had 'Saddam harbours terrorists'

No evidence has been provided, of a link between Saddam and Al Qaeda. Saddam always struck me as too much of a secular control freak to tolerate Al Qaeda in the areas of Iraq which he controlled.

Then we had 'imposing democracy on Iraq'

But Rumsfeld now says that he will not permit an Islamic theocratic state, whether or not it is democratically chosen.

Furthermore, the USA has, through its arrogance, alienated the worldwide support which it had for the 'war on terror' after spetember 11th 2001. There was widespread support for the war on Afghanistan, against Al Qaeda and the Taliban. However, there was far less support for the war on Iraq.

The one benefit (removal of a dictatorship) was never really quoted as a pretext, and equally well applies to several other countries which remain friends of the USA.

On another talkboard, I started a discussion entitled 'shame and disgrace on the USA'.

On this talkboard, I ask, how will this imperialist American arrogance be judged by God? I have just been reading Isaiah 1-5, and was struck by God's judgement against the Israelite people (Judah) for their pride and arrogance. It was amazing to me how many of the Isaiah judgements had a direct parallel with judgements against the war on Iraq.

I also ask; how will Christians in Iraq now be treated? Despite his many faults, Saddam at least was not an Islamic fundamentalist, and Christians were at least treated relatively well.

How will God judge the USA and its lackey the UK?

God forgive America!!

mrsnacks

April 30th, 2003, 04:14 AM

I heard on the news today that the reporter was stating that 80% of Americans were not concerned if any WMD were not to be found in Iraq. The 80% of Americans would still feel that the US was justified in going in.

Amazing. Even if the US doesn't find and WMD, it doesn't matter. :confused:

Aimiel

April 30th, 2003, 07:16 AM

Why do you think that the majority of the army of Iraq simply laid down their weapons and went home? They found out that Saddam had been killed, and the leadership had scattered. Their WMD had been destroyed or shipped out of the country in secret, before the war even began.

boundtoforget

April 30th, 2003, 07:41 AM

Gandalf,

If the 'WMD had been destroyed or shipped out of the country in secret, before even the war began', then there was no justification for this arrogant imperialistic war in the first place.

Knight

April 30th, 2003, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by boundtoforget
Gandalf,

If the 'WMD had been destroyed or shipped out of the country in secret, before even the war began', then there was no justification for this arrogant imperialistic war in the first place. Yea good point.... let's put those young boys back in Iraqi torture chambers and reinstate the "rape squads" of Saddam. :rolleyes:

mrsnacks

April 30th, 2003, 04:27 PM

Knight : You say good point ? I say it is not a good point if there is no truth to that. Obviously you have made up your mind . It's like I mentioned the majority of the American people could care less if the US did not find any WMD . Sadam is evil and should be removed whether he had the weapons or not. Whether the weapons came from the US is irrelevant. The media can lie to the American people but that's not the issue. The issue is whatever we do is the right thing and God is on our side.
White makes right.

aikido7

April 30th, 2003, 05:19 PM

There never were any "weapons of mass destruction," at least not in the amount claimed or in any way actually deliverable by the Iraqi regime. The reason for the invasion was to solidify U.S. hegenomy, and that decision was made under Bush, Sr. The paper trail is there in black and white, but it takes more than a superficial glance from the sports page to the front page to find that out.

"We support the Iraqi people in forming their own government--a democratic government," says Donald Rumsfeld, laughingly unaware of his own agenda peeking out from the tell-tale word "democracy." They'd better pick their form of government and it had better be one we approve of. And it better not be a democracy like France or Germany where a majority of its citizens agree with what its government is doing!

Like bible study is actually "studying the Bible," so, too, is politcal acumen actually "doing one's homework," paying attention to history and using common sense.

Much of the previous anti-war sentiment came from ordinary Americans who believed President Bush when he claimed Iraq had a massive nuclear and biological weapons program. They felt rightfully hestitant to commit American lives to what would perhaps turn out to be a comflagration and a holocaust on the desert sands.

Now I see the administration is withdrawing our forces from Saudi Arabia. Since our presence there was what motivated Osama bin Laden (remember him?) to carry out 9-11, this new bit of information sure looks like he finally got what he wanted by killing 3,000 of our innocent civilians. What's up with that?

Just like the church sees Jesus and Christianity through the lens of John's gospel, the American people see politics through Bush and Cheney's gospel. Both gospels are far removed from the original reality and both have little or no sense of real history.

boundtoforget

April 30th, 2003, 05:26 PM

So is this the kind of thing the USA stands for now? Starting an unprovoked war for no good reason, and then attempting to justify it after the fact? Saddam is probably no more evil than several other dictators who remain good friends with the US. Most of them are dealt with diplomatically. Why was Saddam picked on, if all the 'reasons' for the war were false reasons?

boundtoforget

May 5th, 2003, 09:30 AM

Mrsnacks,

from one of your former posts:

"I'm beginning to think that the best thing for me to do in this debate is to withdraw."

Please don't. The republican-dominated Christian forums such as this need to hear as many dissenting voices as possible, in order to challenge their interpretation of the 'truth'.

I have recently been reading Isaiah, and, starting at the beginning (Chs 1-5) was struck at how many of the prophecies and judgements against Israel of that time have direct and corresponding judgements (against the USA, or perhaps even against Israel) right now.

If you feel as though you are a lone voice in a republican wilderness - don't give up!

mrsnacks

May 9th, 2003, 12:58 AM

Boundtoforget : Thanks for the encouragement. I have been going thru a difficult time dealing with what I have believed the Lord has shown me. Many years ago .I started praying that the Lord would lead me to truth not only in areas of theology , but in history politics and etc. I kept an open mind thru all this testing and studying diligently the many sides of the issues.

For example I took courses in presuppositional and evidential apologetics. Two different schools of thought regarding apologetics. I listened to the 6 day creationist viewpoints and the scientists and theologians who taught that it took billions of years. Outside of theological issues I changed my views from futurism to orthodox preterism. I swallowed truths about my own personal life and it believe me --it didn't taste good. I am still going thru the sanctification process with a long way to go.

In this pursuit of truth and balance, it has led me to frustration and a feeling of being helpless. I say that because what good is it --when I've found --generally that people don't give a hoot. I'm talking about christians and non christians alike.

In regarding the world and the mideast situation , I did some research and found out things about our government and what is taught in our schools that didn't exactly ticke my ears. A friend of mine ( a historian) had me read "Tragedy and Hope " and other books to get some truth about the goings on with this country. It was shocking. Have you read " Brotherhood of Darkness ?"

Anyway I find that I am powerless and really there's nothing I can do to change the direction we are going , or to have any impact on people's thinking . I watch the news conferences on the TV knowing that it's all scripted. Questions from reporters have to be approved ahead of time . My questions are never asked by reporters. In fact I don't even own a TV. My wife and I don't watch . I only make it a point to watch it when I am in a hotel room out of town on business.

I share my knowledge with friends and others and find that there is a lot of blindness out there. I am labeled anti-semitic because i have the nerve to speak my mind and not believe the dispensational viewpoint. I don't believe it's bibical. I did follow the futurist's view for 30 years though. How can the present day Israel be God's chosen when they reject Jesus. Doesn't the scripture say that "he who rejects the Son , rejects the Father ????" The Frank Graham's ,Falwell's and Robertson's talk of Islam and other religions as evil and against our Lord, but when it comes to Jewish faith----there is no criticism. That's just for starters.

I could go on and on from one subject to the next. I am just venting (smile)

So now regarding the war. I was disappointed when I heard a newscaster say that the majority of Americans weren't concerned if the WMD were uncovered in Iraq!!!! People just don't care anymore. If you speak out against the policies of this country --- they will tell you to love it or leave it. Propaganda is everywhere else they say instead of here.

There is documentation on infowars.com that the US encouraged Iraq to invade Kuwait. The US said to Sadam that the US will do nothing if Iraq did invade Kuwait. Why doesn't that among many other facts come out ?? Where is the outrage that the US supplied Iraq with chemical and bilogical weapons ??

I do say that I am glad that sadam is out of the way. God has used the US to strip this man and others of their positions if what the media says is true about them.

I along with everyone believes that 9 11 was horrible and those who are guilty should be punished. But the facts behind the facts is what concerns me. Isn't there evidence that our government was aware that this was going to take place ?? Were the hijackers Saudis ??/ Yes. Was Saudi Arabia linked to 9 11 ?? Yes --. Was Iraq ??? No proof. Then why aren't we attacking Syria ?? Saudi Arabia ??

I heard Dr. Laura say on her show once that we should take out Iraq and Sadam for the atrocities committed. Where was she and all the others when the Soviet Union under Stalin and Lenin were responsible for millions of deaths. How about China ?? Cambodia ?? Sudan ??

We here of the UN violations of Iraq but we ignore Israel's UN violations.

So back to my point that I made earlier. What good is it to know these truths ??? What good is dialogue ??? People have made up their minds anyway. I can't do anything ?? I have no power or influence. And the way it looks no social security waiting for me.

It's really frustrating to realize that you aren't making any impact. It's amazing that people are welcoming a new world order . :help:

boundtoforget

May 10th, 2003, 09:32 PM

Mr Snacks,

Thankyou for your message. It is encouraging to read some of what you say. Perhaps we can both remember that we are never in fact alone, but during our journey of sanctification, God is always there. We may feel ignored, hurt, and like a 'lone voice crying in the wilderness', but God is always there - even when we are wrong! - and especially when we are wrong, to give us the strength to get back up and keep on going.

I haven't read the books you mention, but I will look out for them.

In one very tiny way, we are not powerless. At least discussion boards such as this give an opportunity (hopefully) for open and honest debate, and a genuine seeking after God's word, and his message for us today. Maybe, just maybe, by constructively challenging the things which we see around us, we can begin to stimulate genuine debate and cause some people to question their assumptions.

I might like to start a thread (if I can figure out how to start threads on this board) where we specifically apply biblical teachings and prophecies to today's events, in order to try and determine what God might be saying to us. I am not talking about 'end-time' prophecies so much as warnings given by OT prophets to the people of the day, for their sins.

Perhaps the best way to do this is to keep in mind at all times a seeking after the truth, and a humility to be shared by all seekers, in the face of this truth, whatever their political background.
Of course, this is an ideal, and it is difficult to do when we see around us so many things which fill us with (righteous!?) anger.
Having said all this, I was most discouraged to have 2 of my anti-war threads closed down on another Christian discussion board (which shall remain nameless). So much for freedom of speech. I am glad that this board is open-minded enough to allow this thread, and our comments on it, to remain undeleted.

Revelator

October 20th, 2003, 09:07 PM

President Bush is rather corrupt within mine eyes. He has been responsible for breaking UN charter and invading Iraq for little reason besides tyranny. May I remind you that President Bush:
- deliberately tried to stop the filtering of our water supply with arsenic
-excused major corporations which committed environmental crimes. An example of this is "Koch" a company that was charged with pumping more than 71 metric tons of Benzene (a cancer causing agent) into our water and air supply. Bush pardoned this company multiple times, possibly because of the company's $800000 donation to the Bush campaign.
-he made $11 million dollars off insider trading of the stock market. Thousands lost their jobs.
-his vice president's company, Halliburton, was in charge of reconstruction and regulation of oil in Iraq. There was no bidding or delegation involved with the handing over of Iraq's vast oil supply.
-We should also remember that we broke the Geneva Convention when we captured 2 Iraqi militants, sent them to a prison, to have them beat to death by the guards (illegally)
-He also objected from the Kyoto Plan, an agreement among almost every nation on earth to reduce polution.
-His speeches are continuously inconsistent with data being presented. When questioned about the WMD, he said that biological laboratories were found in trailers. No trace of any biological element was found in the trailers. It is virtually impossible to wipe something clean of biological elements.
-When we seized Iraq and the falll of Baghdad, it took a month to organize inspectors for the WMD. Blair even announced his revised priorities puttingthe search of WMD after the establishment of Iraqi welfare.
- His father unsuccessfully tried to cover up his use of cocaine in high school
- He caused a Venezuelan Conflict, resulting into revolts in Venezuela. This made gas prices skyrocket. We fully funded the revolutionaries in Venezuela to overthrow a President that was fairly elected. We did however fail horribly at this task.

marc

October 20th, 2003, 09:43 PM

"The Absurdity of the Iraq War: Imprisoned in Hatred" by Horst-Eberhard Richter is available on www.portland.indymedia.org. "In immediate nearness to his oppressors, Mandela discovered a compassion and community with them in suffering. The oppressor and the oppressed are both robbed of their humanity, the oppressed by his captivity in hatred and the oppressed by degrading powerlessness.. American in Iraq stands before the mirror of its destructiveness, imprisoned in hatred and morally isolated.."
Other articles on www.portland.indymedia.org include "Theses on Nonviolent Resistance to US World Domination" by Wolfgang Sternstein and "Against the False Prophet George W. Bush" by Jurgen Fliegen.

aikido7

October 21st, 2003, 03:36 AM

I am more and more convinced of President Bush as a liar and as someone who lies about his lying. It is just incredible to me how most people view him as a moral leader.

Most people do not trouble wading in to the information flow any further than the sports page or Nick Cavuto on Fox news.

The information is there. People don't want to see it. Even when it confronts them, the truth is so blatant and uncomfortable that they mindlessly mouth the week's accepted lie and say it over and over again.

Bush is disgraceful, and the people who support him are not interested in thinking or truth.

Jukia

October 21st, 2003, 05:20 AM

Wait, but I thought God was on our side, how can this be that our president lied. Didn't some general just suggest that he was chosen by God to lead us at this time?

Seriously, thanks to the last few posters, you have restored my faith in the American people.

George II used WMD and 9/11 as an excuse to attempt to control the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world. Although I suspect that he was not smart enough to understand that, he just took the advice of daddy's left over advisors.

As I understand the info now, there were no major WMD's nor were there major methods to use any. The connection between 9/11 and Saddam is tenuous at best. Was Saddam a bad evil man--you bet. But so are a # of world leaders, including many we supported in the past (see the history of central and south America). If you think it is our job to be the policeman of the world then admit that, but I'll bet that most Americans could care less about that issue.

I have no problem with hunting down terrorists and getting rid of them. They came into my house on 9/11. They need to be destroyed, well they really need to be turned around and shown the error of their ways but that seems to be something very difficult to do given the economic, social and religious situation in the world.

aikido7

October 21st, 2003, 05:27 AM

Originally posted by Jukia

I have no problem with hunting down terrorists and getting rid of them. They came into my house on 9/11. They need to be destroyed, well they really need to be turned around and shown the error of their ways but that seems to be something very difficult to do given the economic, social and religious situation in the world.

Bush has no problem hunting down terrorists, as long as he maintains his view of reality in simplistic terms.

You're either with us or against us, he says. And if we have to imprison innocent people, take them away from their families for years and cause uncounted anguish and resentment in that person, that family and the friends of that family's heart, then so be it.

They need to get over it, right?

BillyBob

October 21st, 2003, 06:08 AM

You people are insane.

aikido7

October 21st, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by BillyBob
You people are insane.

Dismissal of an argument by ad hominem is one way to deal with what is actually uncomfortable for you. What other specific ways can you think of to actually address the thoughts and criticisms in the posts above?

Show how problem-solving, dialogue and actually focusing on the specific issues are better responses than judgement and name-calling.

BillyBob

October 22nd, 2003, 03:53 PM

AikantHelpIfI'mInsane;
Show how problem-solving, dialogue and actually focusing on the specific issues are better responses than judgement and name-calling.

Billy;
I don't waste my time on people who are insane. You are insane.

aikido7

October 22nd, 2003, 06:27 PM

"I don't waste my time on people who are insane. You are insane."

How much time did you waste on composing and writing the two sentences above?

Empathy for all those who misunderstand [escpecially the lonely, angry ones]

Aimiel

October 22nd, 2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by aikido7
Bush has no problem hunting down terrorists, as long as he maintains his view of reality in simplistic terms.

You're either with us or against us, he says. And if we have to imprison innocent people, take them away from their families for years and cause uncounted anguish and resentment in that person, that family and the friends of that family's heart, then so be it.

They need to get over it, right? They need to learn the lesson that fomenting hatred of The United States, because we are free, and on the side of Israel, is no longer going to be tolerated; especially when they pay terrorist's families for suicide attacks. They will be more mindful of their actions, and those of their citizenry, because of the actions of our President. The one who brings a gun, in the name of law and order, is a terror only to those who are evil. Are you afraid? You have reason to be. I don't think I can be more simplistic than that.

aikido7

October 22nd, 2003, 07:26 PM

"They need to learn the lesson that fomenting hatred of The United States, because we are free, and on the side of Israel, is no longer going to be tolerated; especially when they pay terrorist's families for suicide attacks. They will be more mindful of their actions, and those of their citizenry, because of the actions of our President. The one who brings a gun, in the name of law and order, is a terror only to those who are evil. Are you afraid? You have reason to be. I don't think I can be more simplistic than that."

You are so profoundly right and amazingly far-sighted. History has shown us that this approach always works!

But those profound, amazing ideas and ways of yours make me afraid--so I put my simplistic ideas with the man who rose above history and the religion that sprang from his words and deeds...

aikido7

October 22nd, 2003, 07:49 PM

Bush has presided over one of the most catastrophic failures in U.S. intelligence history.

He has opposed and blocked evidence for an inquest into what happend September 11, and then had the gall to name Henry Kissinger--that mortician of truth--to head the committee.

He has gotten us into an unnecessary war that has killed hundreds of our men and women and some 10,000 in "collateral damage" who don't seem to have hopes, dreams or greiving relatives who will never forget.

Bush and his government have done this even without a plan to get Baghdad's traffic lights working, much less restore civil order.

The ones who now say "I told you so" were dismissed as un-American and pawns of the enemy.

Bush has not only made Americans sitting ducks in Iraq, but taunts the murderers of our young women and men to "bring it on."

Bush is spending billions of dollars on "nation building" (breaking another campaign promise) and will pass the bill to our kids and their kids. Since he has been president, America has presided over the largest job loss figures since Herbert "Great Depression" Hoover.

He cut police and firehouse budgets, afterschool programs, Pell grants and housing allowances for the poor to give millionaires their extra helping of tax cuts. Bush has wrecked our nation's finances by running up the largest deficit in history.

He has let close to 20,000 power plants to increase air pollution in our breathable air.

He has lowered the prestige of America in just about every other country by his unilateral "us vs. them" rhetoric.

He has lied our way into war and when those lies were exposed, if a majority still prefers ignorance and obedieance to civic responsiblity, he will be re-elected.

Thank you, President Bush

Aimiel

October 22nd, 2003, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by aikido7
Bush has ...(plug in a quote from any Global News media outfit)
Thank you, President Bush You believe too simply, and not broadly enough. You act as if there should never be a fault found in our President. He's human. He is not going to please everyone. He answers to God. God put him into that office, and He will keep him there another four years, too. He promotes whomsoever He wills, and you need to be thankful that we don't have Gore in there, dragging America into the sewer (that's about two giant steps down from the gutter, where Clinton dragged the 'reputation' of this nation, with his antics). We have God to thank for a President that believes abortion is a sin. We need to be thankful that George Bush had the guts to fight against bin Laden and his lackeys, and not try to 'find fault' with him. You don't know a good thing, when it is in your own Oval Office. You'd better watch out for snakes, because they bite. With your 'discernment,' you'll probably lie down next to one. :kookoo:

aikido7

October 23rd, 2003, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Aimiel
You believe too simply, and not broadly enough. You act as if there should never be a fault found in our President. He's human. He is not going to please everyone.

I am totally unaware that I expect Bush to be without fault or human. I am not going to argue with you--I am just asking you for specific evidence in my post that I said this! Bush IS human. He is all-too-human, a rather shallow, unremarkable man who seemingly has no people skills, indulges in mocking and making fun of heartfelt Christians who are on death row and answers not to God but to his father's friends.

I wish he would answer to God, whose wisdom highlights the conflict between Bush and bin Laden-- these two petty "leaders" claiming their right to interpret their religion within the cloak of some silly notion of "fighting" what you hate and fear within yourself.

Jesus said it best when he cautioned us to forgive 70 times 7 and "resist not evil." He also knew that the first will be last and the last first. And everything hidden will be revealed.

After the attack on America, we might have had a real chance at turning things around. There was a moment, a collective pause, when the will and the heart (of those who were still able to feel human feelings and not automatically strike back on the right cheek) could have come together--for we were hurting and scared. But instead of leaving home (which is what we must eventually do), we turned instead into obedient, helpless little children and made an idol of George Bush. And he exploited that fear and goes on exploiting it for his own all-too-human ends.

God put him into that office, and He will keep him there another four years, too. He promotes whomsoever He wills, and you need to be thankful that we don't have Gore in there, dragging America into the sewer (that's about two giant steps down from the gutter, where Clinton dragged the 'reputation' of this nation, with his antics).

You may be confusing James Baker, Jeb Bush and the Florida Supreme Court with God. And you certainly confuse Gore with Clinton. But maybe you just need to keep your world nice and simple...

When Christians can climb out of the sewer of abortion's political antics, start walking their talk about adopting children with no brains and start caring about the fetus after it is born, then a great sin will be wiped away. I don't feel thankful for a president who lies and then lies about his lying. I don't feel thankful for a president who admits that he is not one given to curiousity and rarely reads a book. And I certainly don't feel thankful for a president who "pretends" he is feeling one thing while he holds quite another thing carefully locked away from the public.

We need to be thankful that George Bush had the guts to fight against bin Laden and his lackeys, and not try to 'find fault' with him. You don't know a good thing, when it is in your own Oval Office. You'd better watch out for snakes, because they bite. With your 'discernment,' you'll probably lie down next to one. :kookoo:

It takes more guts to lead America and the world into a measured and sensible confrontation with bin Laden and his sick values than going on a wild goose chase using the "shadow side" of those same, sick values. It takes guts to stick to one's promises in Afghanistan. It takes guts to admit you failed hundreds of young soldiers and their families when you went into Iraq. That's what I really call "faith-based" leadership, even when your own intelligence services had no faith and neither did the common-sense American. The former you just ignored and manipulated. The latter you called "unpatriotic" and "un-American." Some president to be proud of!

Instead of sitting in church half-listening to the droning platitudes of his pastor, he needs to wake up to the simple message of the Galilean rabbi.

Regardless of who Caesar is this year, Jesus is still around. And always will be. Are we listening?

In the wilderness Moses elevated the snake and in the same way the Son of Adam is destined to be elevated...

John 3:14

Aimiel

October 23rd, 2003, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by aikido7
I am totally unaware that I expect Bush to be without fault or human. I'm glad that I could help to expose this to you, and to the public.I am not going to argue with you--I am just asking you for specific evidence in my post that I said this! Bush IS human. He is all-too-human, a rather shallow, unremarkable man who seemingly has no people skills, indulges in mocking and making fun of heartfelt Christians who are on death row and answers not to God but to his father's friends. Well, I don't see him as shallow; nor unremarkable. It takes a remarkable person just to get into that office, much more to make a go of it, and even more remarkable is his steadfast witness (as well as testimony) which is the first time that I can remember a President who is Godly, in my lifetime. I remember thinking that Kennedy was too worldly for my tastes, and he was the most Godly man in the White House since I have been alive. You chose, instead of making headway toward defending your position, to once again throw out another off-the-wall left-handed compliment against our President, once again. Don't get me wrong, I fought for your right to do just that, but this is one of the 'good guys' and you have him confused with someone that is against God. You need to pick your battles a little differently, is all.After the attack on America, we might have had a real chance at turning things around. There was a moment, a collective pause, when the will and the heart (of those who were still able to feel human feelings and not automatically strike back on the right cheek) could have come together--for we were hurting and scared. But instead of leaving home (which is what we must eventually do), we turned instead into obedient, helpless little children and made an idol of George Bush. And he exploited that fear and goes on exploiting it for his own all-too-human ends.Well, if you made an idol out of him and are now disappointed that he did not measure up to your projection of him, I can see why you are sore. I believe that God allowed this war, to draw people together and to draw men unto Him. He did, they are and He is.Regardless of who Caesar is this year, Jesus is still around. And always will be. Are we listening?Regardless of your opinion of him, President Bush was put in office by The Lord, and he will answer to The Lord and not necessarily to your leftist 'fringe-element' bitter opinion of him (thank God).