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Knight
April 29th, 2003, 03:00 PM
Where Did the Theory of the Exhaustive Foreknowledge of God Originate? The philosophical syllogism is stated this way: God does not change. Any addition to knowledge would be a change in knowledge. Therefore, God's knowledge does not change. Since God's knowledge does not change. And the future brings new events for us. God knows the future exhaustively.

Augustine on Absolute Foreknowledge

In The City of God, Book XI, c.21, page 364, anticipating these motifs of Calvinism, Augustine explained God's Knowledge on the basis of immutability. His premise was God does not change, and any addition to His knowledge would be a change, therefore, God's knowledge does not change:

For what else is to be understood by that invariable refrain, "And God saw that it was good," than the approval of the work in its design, which is the wisdom of God? For certainly God did not in the actual achievement of the work first learn that it was good, but, on the contrary nothing would have been made had it not been first known by Him. While, therefore, He sees that that is good which, had He not seen it before it was made, would never have been made, it is plain that he is not discovering, but teaching that it is good. Plato, indeed, was bold enough to say that , when the universe was completed, God was, as it were, elated with joy. And Plato was not so foolish as to mean by this that God was rendered more blessed by the novelty of His creation; but he wished thus to indicate that the work now completed met with its Maker's approval, as it had while yet in design. It is not as if the knowledge of God were of various kinds, knowing in different ways things which as yet are not, things which are, and things which have been. For not in our fashion does He look forward to what is future, quite different and far and profoundly remote from our way of thinking. For he does not pass form this to that by transition of thought, but beholds all things with absolute unchangeableness; so that of those things which emerge in time, the future indeed, are not yet, and the present are now, and the past no longer are; but all of these are by Him comprehended in His stable and eternal presence. Neither does He see in one fashion by the eye, in another by the mind, for He is not composed of mind and body; nor does His present knowledge differ from that which it ever was or shall be, for those variations of time, past, present, future, though they alter our knowledge, do not affect His, "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." Neither is there any growth from thought to thought in the conceptions of Him in whose spiritual vision all things which He knows are at once embraced. For as without movement that time can measure, he Himself moves all temporal things, so He knows all times with a knowledge that time cannot measure. And therefore He saw that what He had made was good, when He saw that it was good to make it. And when He saw it made, He had not on that account a twofold nor any way increased knowledge of it; as if He had less knowledge before He made what He saw. For certainly He would not be the perfect worker He is, unless His knowledge were so perfect as to receive no addition from His finished works.

Plotinus's thoughts on the subject are presented in: Plotinus III, Loeb Classical Library, trans. by A.H. Armstrong, Ennead III, p.305, p. 154, p. 152, p. 156, p. 157

seeing all this one sees eternity in seeing a life that abides in the same, and always has the all present to it, not now this, and then again that, but all things at once, and not now some things, and then again others, but a partless completion, as if they were all together in a point, and had not yet begun to go out and flow into lines; it is something which abides in the same in itself and does not change at all but is always in the present, because nothing of it has passed away, nor again is there anything to come into being, but that which it is, it is.

Necessarily there will be no "was" about it, for what is there that was for it and has passed away? Nor any "will be," for what will be for it? So there remains for it only to be in its being just what it is. That, then, which was not, and will not be, but is only, which has being which is static by not changing to the "will be," nor ever having changed, this is eternity. The life, then, which belongs to that which exists and is in being, all together and full, completely without extension or interval, is that which we are looking for, eternity.

The unchangeableness or the immutability of God is the foundation upon which Augustine developed his ideas of foreknowledge. Because God's knowledge does not change, the future must be foreknown by God also. Interestingly, Augustine touched on another theme at the same time; the intemporality of God. "For not in our fashion does he look forward to what is future, nor at what is present, nor back upon what is past ; but in a manner quite different and far and profoundly remote from our way of thinking. For He does not pass from this to that by transition of thought, but beholds all things with absolute unchangeableness; so that of those things which emerge in time, the future, indeed, are not yet and the present are now, and the past no longer are; but all of these are by comprehended in His stable and eternal presence." God is not affected by time therefore he must be out of time or without time. In addition, Augustine viewed God as having no transition of thought: "He does not pass from this or that by transition of thought. This static conception of God forces God into a mold as much as it forces man into a mold.

Augustine assumed that everyone agreed that God knows all future events: "Nevertheless, they are far more tolerable who assert the fatal influence of the stars than they who deny the foreknowledge of future events. For, to confess, that God exists, and at the same time to deny that He has foreknowledge of future things, is the most manifest folly." "For one who is not prescient of all future things is not God. Therefore we are by no means compelled, either, retaining the prescience of God, to take away the freedom of the will, or, retaining the freedom of the will, to deny that He is prescient of future things, which is impious."

On page 364 we see that Augustine maintains that in order for God to have perfect knowledge he cannot receive additional knowledge. There is no Biblical proof given for this statement because there is none. Augustine's concept is based solely on human reasoning from Platonic logic. Augustine, instead of investigating God's Word on the Foreknowledge of God, simply stated that God must have prescience or the knowledge of all things that will happen in the future. Again notice the lack of Biblical evidence. Using Platonic reasoning and ad hominem arguments Augustine forces his view of foreknowledge on his readers. His ad hominem attacks on the views of detractors suggests that Augustine had no answers for those who deny the exhaustive prescience of God. Educator H. Scholfield described indoctrination as "far from encouraging the use of evidence to substantiate, it actually suppresses all evidence which is in any way likely to undermine the beliefs and ideas it is attempting to inculcate...the victim of the indoctrination will never be able to consider an alternative because none appears to be available..."

The Immutability of God

Plato

This syllogism reflects God's immutability from Plato's view. God is perfect. The perfect does not change. God does not change. Plato wrote in "A dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus" in The Republic :

Is it not true that to be altered and moved by something else happens least to things that are in the best condition...that the healthiest and strongest is the least altered....And is it not the soul that is bravest and most intelligent that would be least disturbed and altered by any external affection...those things which are well made an in good condition are least liable to be changed by time and other influences. That is so. It is universally true then, that that which is in the best state by nature or art admits least alteration by something else. So it seems. But God, surely and everything that belongs to God is in every way in the best possible state...Then does he (God) change himself for the better and to something fairer, or for the worse and to something uglier than himself? It must necessarily, said he, be for the worse if he is changed.

In this dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus, Plato presented his classical presentation of the Immutability of God. This concept was proposed by Plato and later adopted by Augustine through the writings of the Neo-Platonists. This view of perfection is called the static view of perfection. We would disagree with Plato that perfection must be static. If God were to respond perfectly to each situation as the event occurs then God could be perfect and dynamic. As an illustration consider a football coach. If the coach was determining the plays of both teams, then the coach could easily cause his team to win. Such a coach would not be brilliant or admired. However if a coach were able to respond perfectly to the changing strategy of the opposition, the such a coach would have to change his game plans as the opposition changed their strategy. This coach would be practicing dynamic perfection. Such a coach is more worthy of our admiration.

Augustine

The historical influence of Plato on Augustine is easily documented in The Confessions of St. Augustine . He visited Simplicianus and mentioned that he had read "certain books of the Platonists." Simplicianus "much rejoiced over me(Augustine), for that I had not fallen upon any other philosphers' writings, which use to be full of fallacies and vain deceits, after the rudiments of this world : whereas in the Platonists, God and his word are everywhere implied." St. Augustine's Confessions transl. by William Watts 1631,The Loeb Classical Library, The MacMillan Company, New York, May 1912, Vol. 1, p. 409.

In the tradition of Neoplatonic mysticism, Augustine turned inward to reach the good. This act of introspection is described on page 86: "I entered and beheld with the eye of my soul, above my mind, the Light Unchangeable." From Augustine,s Platonic background he had been taught that God was immutable or unchangeable, so this was his conception of God in his conversion. Again Augustine, "I found the unchangeable and true Eternity of Truth, above my changeable mind." Also in the The City of God , trans. by Marcus Dods, The Modern Library, Random House, New York,1950 p. 250-257, we find Augustine praised the Platonic philophers and admitted that the concept of the immutability of God were taken from them.

These philosophers, then, whom we see not undeservedly exalted above the rest in fame and glory, have seen that no material body is God, and therefore they have transcended all bodies in seeking for God. They have seen that whatever is changeable is not the most high God, and therefore they have transcended every soul and all changeable spirits in seeking the supreme.....He who is clever judges better than he who is slow, he who is skilled than he who is unskillful, he who is practiced than he who is unpractised; and the same person judges better after he has gained experience than he did before. But that which is capable of more and less is mutable; whence able men, who have thought deeply on these things, have gathered that the first form is not to be found in those things whose form is changeable.

Then, in regard to Plato's report that the philosopher is a lover of God,

nothing shines forth more conspicuously in those sacred writings. But the most striking thing in this connection, and that which most of all inclines me almost to assent to the opinion that Plato was not ignorant of those writings, is the answer which was given to the question elicited from the holy Moses when the words of God were conveyed to him by the angel; for, when he asked what was the name of that God who was commanding him to go and deliver the Hebrew people out of Egypt, this answer was given: "I am who am; and though shalt say to the children of Israel, He who is sent me unto you;" as though compared with Him that truly is, because He is unchangeable, those things which have been created mutable are not-a truth which Plato vehemently held, and most diligently commended. And I know not whether this sentiment is anywhere to be found in the books of those who were before Plato, unless in that book where it is said, "I am who am; and thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Who is sent me unto you."

Augustine freely admitted that the concept of Immutability was a Platonic idea. He referenced the Platonic philosophers, and he mentioned Plato. He then attempted to draw an analogy between these philosophic concepts and God's Word. We admit that this connection alone does not invalidate the concept. However what is the Biblical evidence?

Augustine cites Exodus 3:14 " And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ?I AM has sent me to you.'" The exact meaning of God's name is not certain. However what is certain is that there is no reference to immutability. The meaning probably is a reference to the eternal existence of God. Citing verses with obscure meanings is hardly proof of a major doctrinal concept. Notice also that Augustine used philosophical reasoning as proof of his doctrine of Immutability. Reasoning is a dependable tool only with a Biblical foundation. This foundation is Platonic.

Calvin

Calvin wrote on Immutability:

"God remains unchangeably the same. God is here contrasted with created beings, who, as all know, are subject to continual changes...he is here placed in a state of settled and undisturbed tranquillity...Although he subjects the world to many alterations, he remains unmoved; and that not only in regard to himself." Calvin, translated by James Anderson, Commentary on the Book of Psalms, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. p.462

"The book of life being nothing else than the eternal purpose of God, by which he has predestined his own people to salvation. God, it is certain, is absolutely immutable." ibid, p. 73

"To this the words of Augustine refer, ?As we do not know all the things which God does respecting us in the best order, we ought, with good intention, to act according to the Law, and in some things be acted upon according to the Law, his Providence being a Law immutable.'" Calvin's Institutes, p. l03

"Besides as he is the Eternal Wisdom, the Immutable Truth, the Determinate Counsel of the Father." Ibid, p. 517.

"By that immutable counsel of God, by which he predestined to himself whomever he would, was alone effectual for their salvation...That Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction." Ibid, p. 494.

"Because his immutable decree had once for all doomed them to destruction." Ibid, p. 522.

"Where it is said that God repented of having made Saul king, the term change is used figuratively. Shortly after it is added, "The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent, for he is not a man, that he should repent." In these words, his immutability is plainly asserted without figure." Ibid, p. 109.

As proof that God remains unalterably the same Calvin declared that God remains unmoved. Compare this statement with Aristotle (Aristotle, Metaphysics, The Loeb Classical Library, p. 207) "for there is something which always moves that which is moved, and the prime mover is itself unmoved." Calvin obviously is borrowing his ideas from Aristotle, a pupil of Plato, and mixing them with his theology of immutability. Why was Calvin so certain that God is immutable? Is this plainly asserted in Scripture? In this article most of the occurrences of the Hebrew word for repent are listed. Of the 32 occurrences, 26 are references to God. God is said not to repent 6 times. 20 references are to God repenting. Was Calvin certain that God does not repent because of Scripture or because of his Platonic influence?

Does Scripture prove that God is immutable? Where is this clear evidence? It is interesting that when Calvin is presented with the evidence that God changes he dismisses it lightly. Calvin's explanation that "change" is just a figure of speech is unacceptable. A figure of speech is used to represent one concept in terms of another because the nature of the two concepts allows an analogy to be drawn. There is no analogy between the concepts of "does not change his mind" and "changes his mind".

The Niphal form of the Hebrew word nagham is used in 1 Samuel 15:11 and 1 Samuel 15:35 to mean that the Lord repented. However in 1 Samuel 15:29 the same word is used to say that the Lord does not repent. If we understand that the Lord does not repent but that in this specific instance God will not change his mind the apparent conflict is easily explained. However Calvin uses another approach. Calvin is convinced that God is immutable and therefore the term change is used figuratively with God. Where does Calvin obtain his conviction that God is immutable? Why does he dismiss without an explanation the idea that God could change his mind?

Calvin quoted Augustine as a source for immutability. But we have already demonstrated Augustine received his doctrine of Immutability from Plato.

Report by written Bob Hill - www.biblicalanswers.com

wickwoman
April 29th, 2003, 04:25 PM
Dear Knight:

This is a very deep and thought provoking subject. I generally deal with issues from a more "gut feeling" vantagepoint. I know that some enjoy pondering such subjects for hours on end but, in my mind, things seem very simple to me and, at times, I try not to cloud my thinking with too many deep issues.

That aside, I do have some comments which I will make strictly as I said from a "gut feeling" point of view. I believe that Christians have been taught that their instincts are bad and to be ignored. The fear of becoming a secular humanist has tormented many a Christian through the years, however, I have great faith in the ability of human beings. I believe that very deep and significant knowledge of God can be attained through a simple "remembering." This is why I often speak from this vantagepoint.

As far as the mutability of God. I see no mutual exclusivity in the concepts of perfection and change. The illustration of the coach who adapts to the changing situations is good, however, the coach is not capable of foreseeing the future so adaptation is necessary. God is. So He/She might have already instituted the behavior necessary from the beginning to deal with those balls "coming out of left field."

Nonetheless, I don't know why God could not change. He/she is already perfect, however, changes do not always have to be vertical. God could change from red to blue and that would not indicate that red was imperfect in any way, just different.

I believe that knowledge of God, however, is not exclusively tied to God, it is tied to human beings who appear to change, in this life.

"The wholeness of the Kingdom does not depend on your perception, but your awareness of its wholeness does. It is only your awareness that needs protection, since being cannot be assailed." ACIM 6, pg. 111

We must define reality here. If a person believes this life is real then it would appear that human beings change all the time. However, if we believe that this life is a "dream" then we could see that the perceived change was only imagined. A dream appears perfectly reasonable to the dreamer. The events of the dream seem to be real and the dreamer is affected emotionally and even sometimes physically by those events. However, when a dreamer wakes up, he/she sees that the dream was not real and the only impact on that person's every day life caused by the dream is the memory of it. Suppose our lives are just like that dream?

"This place is a dream Only a sleeper thinks it's real. Then death comes like dawn and you wake up laughing at what you thought was your grief." -Rumi

"Whenever you are tempted to take a useless journey that would lead away from light, remember what you really want, and say: 'The Holy Spirit leads me unto Christ, and where else would I go? What need have I but to awake to Him?" ACIM 13, pg. 257

The reason I've digressed into this topic is to point this out: we are part of God. We appear to change, however, maybe we don't.

I like to think of the way God sees things as a geometric design of great complexity compared to what we see when we observe things as just a horizontial line. The article says God sees all things past and future all at once, however, past does not exist in time and future does not yet exist either. So, the only reality is the present. Does God really see things that are not real?

freelight
April 29th, 2003, 05:20 PM
Greetings all,

My first post to this forum.

I've explored and discussed this at length with another discussion forum - It is most wondrous. I tend more towards the Arminiam view and Process Theology - some aspects. I certainly do no agree with the more extreme and illogical views of Calvinism.

I affirm the foreknowledge of God in the capable radiance of His omniscience, however,......I do no hold that it is necessarily absolute. God has foreknowledge by the knowing of all possible outcomes (potentials and actuals) that may come forth within the effulgence of His creation...including his creatures. So....that He 'foreknew' those whom He would pre-destine(determine) for His glory...is simply prognosis of that which He intends, plans and will carry out by His divine Will. Included in this realm of possibility is the dynamic and cooperative element of free-will among his creatures.

That God is unchanging is true of his divine essence, Existence, Being. God can still maintain the esential quality of His Being - His essence....even amid and within the Field of change, evolution, progress, and ever-expanding consciousness. Therefore.....God is augmented, enhanced, glorified, magnified in the expansion of His Light/Word/Creation.....even as His sons are glorified and ascend to even greater heights of perfection. I see this aspect of Deity participation with Creation as the expansion and evolution of God the Whole.....or as one teachings puts it - God the Supreme. This is the aspect of Deity involved in creation that grows along with creation in its salvation and ascension - it is this aspect of God that is ever in motion...being elevated in the process of glorification.....the divine light in matter....being sancitifed - thru this .....Deity takes on the experiecial benefit of the redemption process within creation....as part of the creative and redemptive process.

God is Unchanging and changing within the dynamics of His eternal Being - it is ones perception of the aspects of Deity in this process which determines ones understanding and view of the Whole.


Blessings!


paul



:)

rustyb
April 29th, 2003, 07:41 PM
i hate long, exhaustive posts :/

in HIM,

-rustyb

smaller
April 29th, 2003, 07:56 PM
Peace to ALL who set their Hands to Peace. Jesus is OUR PEACE!

God delights in ALL the multiple BILLIONS of details that perpetually happen in this world. He set ALL OF CREATION in its' PROPER ORDER and has devoted the TIMES of this World and its' inhabitants solely unto His Purposes.

He has PLANS and they HAVE AND WILL HAPPEN.

No crumb will be left behind. No detail unseen. No sparrow falling apart from His Will.

In Him we live and move and have our being.

He, of Himself is beyond the subjective "detail" of creation and is FAR ABOVE ALL THINGS. He will NEVER be defined, bound, termed, fenced, numbered, or captured. Eternity, His Dwelling Place, cannot have anything set to as being beyond measure.

Look at all that He has created and you will see the infinite detail in ALL He does and ALL He has created. To think that One so OBSESSED with MULTITUDE could NOT SEE is to NOT SEE in itself. This also serves Him, as ALL THINGS do!

What Augustine, or Plato, or Calvin have to say about God does not matter. What MATTERS is Him in MIND. It is THERE in Him, that our FREEDOM is.

With Him IN MIND and HEART we have His Perfect Peace.

The Father IS.

God IS Love. Love has NO BOUNDRIES.

enjoy!

smaller

rustyb
April 29th, 2003, 08:45 PM
"Augustine received his doctrine of Immutability from Plato. "
In the same way christians borrowed all the other aspects of world religion? virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, divinity, etc?
That's quite a statement, Plato did not speak from the spirit; this his argument is of the flesh. God BLESS.

in HIM,

-rustyb

rustyb
April 29th, 2003, 09:26 PM
Q: How many Diminished gods of Open Theism does it take to change a lightbulb ?
A: One, but he won't know when the bulb needs changing until it burns out. Then he'll be just as surprised as you.

God willing ignorant and being as obligated as man? how can his will be purpose and eternal and be contingent on man? Just because Luther saw a model of God's immutable nature in Virgil's roman gods' being victims of "fate" doesn't mean he draw his theology from pagan ideas or storied. (example, not answering a quote) I thought the cross was eternal, meaning, Christ' work was eternal in future and in past- meaning, it has always been in mind. How then can Adam not fall? The Open Theism God isn't all knowing thus isn't all powerful. A God who denies his total severignty is self-defeating. He creates an atmosphere and standards unto which he can bind himself. How can an all powerful God NOT know the future? If he makes himself less powerful or less knowledgable, then how can he ever be able to regain this former knowledge? It won't be long before the open theist gos defeats himself. God have mercy on Bob Hill.

in HIM,

-rustyb

agapathos
April 30th, 2003, 02:38 AM
Okay, so Calvin was full of negativism and Arminius was full of unconditional acceptance...and Plato was not full of the Spirit.

I'll just throw in my two cents' worth, and let all of you decide what it is that I am full of (or not).

When God said "Let us create Man in Our likeness...", it was not the entirety of His likeness that he was created in. It was an aspect of His likeness. It was His spirituality. His personality. It was not His omnipotence nor His omnipresence nor His omniscience nor his infinity.

God transcends dimensionality. So Time cannot bind Him and Space cannot contain Him. Each of His creatures resembles Him in some way yet is limited by its dimensions.

So it is with Man. Man is incapable of appreciating God as He truly was/is/will be. This is because Man doesn't been/be/will be. He simply is. He DID been and he MAY will be, but at any given moment, he simply IS. Not so for God. God eternally was/is/will be. Not only eternally, but ultimately. Not only is Man limited to what he IS, but to what he SIMPLY IS.

This is why Man cannot help but worship God when he becomes aware of Him. Awareness that One such as God can exist is a total mindblower for one such as Man.

freelight
April 30th, 2003, 05:45 AM
Hello All,


Regarding Gods foreknowledge - Since God is omniscient.....I see this as meaning Gods 'knowing' is all encompassing in that all actual and potential transpirations are within the Range of His divine Consciousness. Since He exists outside of the constraints of time and space........and such phenomena exists within Him(for there nothing outside of Him).......He is therefore aware of all possible and probable outcomes...in the infinite possibilities that exist with-in His universe and His free-will creatures. The laws of cause and effect, sowing and reaping, karma.....and other universals initiated may be predicted.....because they are effectual.


Therefore we understand that God predestined(defined beforehand)......those whom He would call and justify - God had prepared in His own divine Mind & Will........an inheritance - He predestined these ones to such an inheritance - an indefinite number....comprised of all those who hear the call and receive the salvation of Christ.

To those calvinists who deride the open theists about their God being capable of surprise.....I am not sure about that. By definition of God being omniscient(all - knowing)......He cannot be surprised....because He knows all possible and probable outcomes in His eternal Universe - in all his generations (creation and creatures). His intuition and Soul-powers of cognition permit Him to know all transpirations taking place in his divine Body.


With this understanding........we see that there is a realm in God that is not yet known - for in the unfolding of the Universe and free will creature consciousness.....is an area of uncertainty - this area/space/time of the unknown carries within it.......the substance of all potential and actual knowings(outcomes). Because of this element of the unknown factors into the equation.....100% total perfect knowledge of what a free will creature will do 5 minutes from now up to 20 years... is not absolute. - but such could be predicted by the variables at work and the soul disposition. It is in this field of arising consciousness....where the element of free will comes into play......and God is ever inter-acting with Creation and His creatures.......in a kind of coordination. The carrying out of His will is via cooperation.........and those who suffer by rejecting divine Will and soul-salvation coordinate their own suffering/extinction.

Therefore we could say Gods knows all things (within the medium of past, present, future) because all these exist in Him.
We could also say God does not know all things(in the unfolding present and future) in total absolute perfection...because these things are in a state of flux perpetually - however......He knows all probablities far more accurate than Man. Nevertheless....God is still Supreme always.....and is knowing and coming to know all actuals and potentials in His infinite Universe....as it continues to unfold.....according to His Will. The factor of creature free will that is free from outside control, divine or otherwise......creates this space of the unknown....for if one can act independenty at all or in any way....from God and His control....then there is a trace of uncertainty and God cannot know perfectly the action of his creature.....however He can know the outcomes of their choices/decisions....and by His divine Sight.....see the course and destiny of all souls - His plans, pre-destinations, pre-orderings, pre-ordinations remain the same....as His will charted these out from the beginning. God is still Sovereign.....in His knowing and in His unknowing. His knowings born from the depths of His eternal Being and His divine laws supercede and outshine all that is uncertain.

Therefore I would say that Gods foreknowledge is not absolutely absolute.........but predetermined. God is unchanging and changing. One must know which aspect of Deity qualifies for such attributions. At last.....God is All-encompassing......the Container of All knowledge and the Perceiver of All that was, is....and is ever becoming. (this thru all components of time/eternity). He is the 'I AM'...and the 'I WILL BE'........the primal Ground were all Be-ing and Be-coming arise..........so He is knowing and coming to know in the Field of His universal Mind .......all things.

So, in some sectors Gods knowledge is absolute....in others not so absolute......however replete. Sovereign nonetheless.


paul

rustyb
April 30th, 2003, 06:36 AM
friends and brothers,

Instead of proclaiming our own limitations, "we" declare the limitiations- either purposeful or not- of GOD, the creator and sustainer of the universe, who Nebuchadnezzer spoke of:

Daniel 4:35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?' (NASB)
Daniel 4:37 "Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride." (NASB)

Abandon your "free-will" which is comepletely contingent on the non-swaying or impressed will of God; Who purposes all things for his Glory. Whom has purpose the cross for eternity and hands all men over to disobediance to show mercy on them. I pray Bob Hill's heart is not as his words imply, personifing and limiting to God(a more understandable God?), through the manipulation and faulty understanding of God's word.

in HIM,

-rustyb

Is God not perfect? Does a change of mind incur some faulty first plan? Is God so faulty that he "Replans"? Does God LIE as Bob Hill calls into question when discussing God's "unfilfilled promises"? I say the only fault that lies is the faulty understanding of man, pertaining to certain mysteries of God. amen.

wickwoman
April 30th, 2003, 07:11 AM
God is the Original Thought. In that He/she is the roots of the entire universe. To say that God created something that wasn't perfect or complete is to say that God Himself/Herself is not perfect or complete.

"The mind is not just 'oneness' or a singular entity because it manifests in manifold ways. It is not a plurality or many things, either, because these numerous manifestations all have one essence. No one can describe its nature saying, "It is exactly like this!" It is indescribable, unutterable, inconceivable, nonarising, unceasing, and nondwelling, like the essence of space. Mind nature is discovered within the experience of awareness and is cognized individually.

-Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, "Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen"
From "365 Buddha: Daily Meditations," edited by Jeff Schmidt

smaller
April 30th, 2003, 08:23 AM
Peace Agapathos

Very good description.

A similar restatement would be that God is Perpetual Objectivity (not that this binds Him in any way by "description."

and that "creation" is obsessive subjectivity (being bound in form and subjected to Objectivity)

and best of all

God IS Love.

smaller

agapathos
April 30th, 2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by smaller
God IS Love.
smaller

Or, you might say, God WAS/IS/SHALL BE Love.

And, all that God eternally and ultimately is Love also is.

And, all that God omnisciently and omnipotently and omnipresently and eternally and infinitely does Love also does.

Hence Paul could write: Love believes all things, hopes all things and endures all things; Love never fails.

He was talking about Jesus, dontcha know...

freelight
April 30th, 2003, 11:32 PM
Hello all,

It is a most powerful and inspiring meditation to place within the souls awareness...the Reality of God Being Love. From this core nucleus....is the divine nature from which issues all the currents of Life - the ethic and divine principle governing all of Gods manifold works. As we embrace the reality of this divine Love.....we by virtue of its possession...fulfill the Law(s) of God....by its inspiration. Our actual marriage to God within this divine Law of Life......is the generator of life and peace......and all blessing. We come most purely unto God in spirit(as IS).....as Love, Light, Spirit and Truth. Our souls in meditation upon the Spirit of Lord....inherits all the benefits of God.......as real substance.

Our study of scripture, theology, traditions, doctrines....must be true to the Spirit and ethic of the Lord....or it is of little or no profit. If our forms, methods, ministries, ways of sharing can be effective channels wherein the Spirit of God may work....then these have value.....and ever so....we are aspiring to become purer and more excellent vessels for the Lord.

'Where the Spirit of the Lord IS.....there,........is Liberty'


If we could actually allow the Love of God to penetrate our very beings and immerse us in its holiness......we could actually move in the greater dimensions of His ever unfolding Power - that divine Life.....the renewing that brings all things/beings from up out of death into Life - this most holy Love is the transforming power .........the Law of Christ.....the Spirit of Christ.


The body of Christ in its full glory and beauty...will be wholly possessed by the Spirit of Christ. It is this regenerating, sanctifying spirit that the world longs to be touched by.......so it may be transformed.



paul

smaller
May 1st, 2003, 12:15 AM
Peace All

And some do not believe, or believers believe that God is Love BUT that He will torture, burn, mutilate, separate, and/or annihilate the majority of mankind.

The intersting part is that God raises up enemies to Love, to test His Position.

Contemplating His Ways, Ever Perfect, but most beyond "sight" or "sound."

smaller

.Ant
May 8th, 2003, 01:15 PM
You Open Theism propponents seem to be limiting God. God isn't limited!

freelight
May 8th, 2003, 02:03 PM
Hello Ant,

Philosophically...it may be implied that God is unlimited,.....and this seems true when compared with the limitations of Man. However, how can a limited mind presume to qualify any limitation or unlimitedness upon a Deity that is greater than his own comprehension? Let us look to the divine Nature of God.....and presume that He only operates within the allowances allowed by His own constitution - being according to the laws of Love, Light, Truth, Spirit. God operating according the Law of His own Being.....is in essence lawfully bound to the Law(s) of His own Nature.....therefore has liberty within such laws - He cannot Be what He is not....or Do what is not true to His Character....so in this sense He is limited to operate by certain laws.
Since God gave man free will.......and an arena of freedom to operate within.....God cannot violate this free will of his creature...for such is governed by certain laws. God is true to operate lawfully...for He is a God of Law. If we presume that God is limited in His foreknowledge in an absolute sense...because of the free will liberties of his creatures....it is premised upon certain functions inherent in the free will choices of his creatures that are not absolutely controlled by God - It is within this dimension of time/space that one may presume that God does not have absolute knowledge - however, God knows all the potentials and actuals of existence....and is still therefore Sovereign as Deity...and forever maintains His Deity, none the less.
God is bound to be true to the laws and sanctions ordained and established by His own Being/Will......for it is impossible for him to violate the truth and ethic of His own Character/Essence/Spirit.

Ah, so we see that indeed....with God all things are possible...and with God nothing shall be impossible - these statements must come with qualifications....as all possibilites and impossibilities are still goverened by certain laws,....be they regarding free will liberties, faith, etc.
In summary....God is indeed Sovereign....and to us in contrast appears unlimited.......due to His Infinity of Being...and Godhood.........but we see that all things operate and are governed by certain laws existing and brought into existence by their creation/Creator. God is unlimited and limited. There are some things possible and some things impossible. Wisdom and divine insight can qualify the particulars.

Enjoy!



paul

smaller
May 8th, 2003, 07:47 PM
All things SERVE HIM, but He is not "bound" by anything.

freelight
May 8th, 2003, 08:32 PM
Hi smaller,

Your wrote: All things SERVE HIM, but He is not "bound" by anything.


What I wrote previous stands. I wish to expound a little. The issue here is our understanding/definition of the word 'bound'....and its qualifications. My previous thesis was more of the word being used to mean 'Being under legal or moral obligation' - actions in accord to ones constitution/nature - this in a lawful sense. The other aspects of meaning this word implies.....still may apply. Gods is bound to His Will, Word, Law....which expresses and demonstrates His Constitution(Nature of Being)...meaning He is bound to do all that is lawfully consistent within these perimeters - therefore it could be said.....that He is true to act accordingly....and could not possibly act in opposition because He cannot be what He is not......and violate the Law(s) of His own Being.

Of course all things,....including sin, evil, opposition and all other deterrents of spiritual progress and moral perfection.....may ultimately serve Him.....(let the reader decide how).....however Gods Nature and Constitution remain true and unchanging.....and ultimately the supremacy of divine Will prevails.


paul

.Ant
May 8th, 2003, 08:48 PM
Good post freelight. :thumb: Makes sense to me.

You say that we have free will, and God honours that. However, I don't think absolute foreknowledge necessarily violates free will. So therefore I think the moral objection for God knowing the future is invalid.

freelight
May 8th, 2003, 09:24 PM
Hi Ant,

You wrote:

You say that we have free will, and God honours that. However, I don't think absolute foreknowledge necessarily violates free will. So therefore I think the moral objection for God knowing the future is invalid.


)============= An interesting assumption/point. This is a wonderful thing to look deeper into. Without getting to deep ;).......I have suggested in the past that there are certain dynamics at work within the 'field' wherein mans free will and Gods omniscience intersect/interact...in the playing out/unfolding of Life...in time and eternity. Perhaps we can explore these 'dynamics'....if we can figure what they are. :angel:

Of course generally most accept that Gods omniscience covers past, present and future dimensions of awareness....as He transcends time and is oustide of time in a sense....being Eternal...and Eternally aware - this state of Being includes knowledge of all that is, was and will be - our area of focus relative to this inquiry is the 'will be' aspect - its dimensional unfolding and the factors which determine outcomes and ultimately destiny.
It is assumed by certain logic...that if one truly has a degree of free will....then such a will may determine by its own liberty of choice.....its station...and ultimately its destiny. I dont think its so much a moral objection to God knowing the entirety and finality of our fate or destiny...as it is in understanding the dynamics which factor in its determination.


Peace,


paul

smaller
May 9th, 2003, 09:20 AM
Peace freelight

It always mystifies me when someone states that God must act within the confines of His Being

when that Very Being is ETERNAL and FOREVER.

We my friend do not even have a single CLUE about His Being except for His Word (which is subject to some amount of mystery as well eh?) and His creation.

There is also the occaisional "revelation."

What God has prepared for those who love Him has not even ENTERED OUR IMAGINATIONS yet alone the "confines" of His Being.

I prefer to leave Him as He has presented. Eternal. Eternal has no BOUNDRIES and we cannot DEFINE Him or LIMIT Him in ANY WAY.

To do so is IDOLOTRY.

smaller

freelight
May 9th, 2003, 11:31 AM
Hi smaller,

Indeed, there are wonders and glories that God has prepared for us that are beyond our present conception and ability to fathom - my thesis stands as already presented - God is true to His own nature/constitution....therefore he will not and cannot do that which is not in accord with His character.....because one cannot Be what He is not - therefore.......He wills and does only that which is consistent with His divine nature and within its powers.
God is true to His divine nature and acts accordingly to its laws. If you review my previous commentary this has been one aspect of God to consider. This is not imposing some kind of restriction on God(as if a mortal could)....but recognizing that God is lawful and true to His own Being.....and will not/and maybe cannot act in a way that is contrary to His Being...because He is always TRUE. God being eternal and never changing further emphasizes that these things will then be eternally true.

Summary: to say that God is unlimited, has no bounderies...and cannot be defined...may be relatively true(due to our limited knowledge)...but such statements would require qualification. Recognizing that God does work within the perimeters of the ethic and nature of His Being/divine nature....(such logically has certain bounderies in which to act in contrast to assumed possibilities that he can act in other ways)...and that certain features of God CAN be defined......is NOT idolatry.

In the unfolding of our recognition......we are learning more and more from the Spirit of truth about Truth.....and therefore more and more about Gods ways.....even if such continual revelation shows us more and more of his eternality, infinity, immortality.......still....He is what/who He IS by Nature/constitution as the Sole Source/Nucleus of all that IS/WAS/WILL BE.....and such issues of government thruout His Universe is sustained by certain laws relative to all things/beings.......in all dimensions - these laws/ways are learned by us in our ascent Godward...naturally. Therefore.....as we attain more God-consciousness (the mind of Christ)....we become more and more like God.....which grants us more divine knowledge. True,....there may be an infinity of the unknown in our adventure in God.....yet such will be the same God/divine nature unfolding itself to our ever blooming consciousness. In these higher states of being/mind/spirit.......we will be living more purely and attuned to Gods divine nature/laws.....and such will be the motivating power within us to Live in the Spirit ...according to the Spirit....in the Light....in the divine Love. We will be living within the lawful dimensions of this Love....and so will be true to it making the possibility for sin(any transgression of the law of love) less and less possible. This is another wondrous subject.......but hopefully my original thesis has been affirmed/expounded on.

IN our spiritual life within God.....there is the known and the unknown.....the seeming limited and unlimited....the seeming bound and boundless - in our unfolding of consciousness...there will always be these two perhaps fluctuating aspects....ever evolving according to our station and souls growth in the Light.


paul

smaller
May 9th, 2003, 11:55 AM
Your thesis is just another limit upon One who has no limits.

All things SERVE Him.

He Himself is NOT BOUND by anything.

It is the PRIDE of men that seek to say "THIS IS HOW GOD IS" with a limit in their mouths.

God is the God of ALL FLESH. AS such He is NOT THEIR SUBJECT, but VICE VERSA.

In this I see freewill as an IDOL of the highest order. It is Gods Word that is to REIGN at the TOP which is YOUR MIND AND HEART, not the supposed "freewill." Those who are His understand this order.

The man of "freewill" is a resistor and a limit and an idol worshipper.

You say God must bow to your ideas of LOGIC. So in this LOGIC is your God. You say, WELL God OPERATES through certain principles, therefore He is BOUND by them.

The FACT is ALL THINGS serve HIM. Whatever IS.

So there are those who understand that with God NOTHING is impossible and that ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE, just as Jesus SPOKE. God is also INVISIBLE.

Yet we find that IDOL WORSHIPPERS desire to see God BOUND. They say to God YOU MUST RESPOND in a certain fashion BECAUSE I said so.

God is AT THE TOP, ETERNAL, WITHOUT ENDING. There is NOTHING in the hands of His creation that will somehow CAPTURE THIS in His entirety.

So in the supposed LIGHT of freewill we find men that say GOD WILL BURN and TORTURE PEOPLE FOREVER, and as such they are resistors of Gods Will, who will have ALL to be saved.

Does God get His Will? Not according to MOST freewillers. You MAY be the exception. We have not dug far enough yet.

God used EVIL and LIES and made GOOD come about. Men EXCUSE God for committing "justifiable homicide" because they say HE CANNOT DO EVIL, but the FACT of the matter is

EVIL SERVES HIM just as ALL THINGS DO.

To say that EVIL cannot or does not serve God is to PLACE EVIL as a bigger and better POWER than God for GOD somehow cannot touch it.

I prefer that HE IS SO OVERWHELMING that He can do ANYTHING HE WANTS to and in that I TRUST.

You want to place LOGIC over trust? Rules and regulations?

How about we just acknowledge His Eternity and BOW to Him.

In this there is NO ARGUMENT or CONDEMNATION for we understand that He is in complete control of ALL THINGS...

and we ourselves do not desire to be BOUND either, except to THE ONE WITHOUT LIMITS.

enjoy!

smaller

billwald
May 9th, 2003, 06:00 PM
Reminds me of the new farm extenstion agent who went up to an old farmer and started telling him about all the new things he learned in aggie school and how he was having classes . . . farmer said, "Not interested." New kid says, "I can teach you to farm twice as good as you are farming. Old Timer replies, "I already know how to farm twice as good as I am farming." If God has exhaustive foreknowledge and is omnipotent . . . .

Emmaus Road
May 28th, 2003, 03:07 PM
While a brilliant Post, and long live Augustine via Plato..the problem is the immutability of the future. If the future is fixed, then by connection God must respond in certain ways to produce that future. Which means that God is limited by what he can do. In effect, God is boxed in by his own foreknowledge..and what diety would wish that on itself.

I cite...the argument with Abraham about the number of innoncent people in Sodom, the decision to destroy the earth by flood, his mercy concerning Ninevah...(which upset Jonah no end), and I bet there are others.

God does allow a certain amout of free will to flourish, and I am sure he cried during the Holocaust......but man's free will does exist.....and so does God's.

Or all free will...is an illusion.

smaller
May 28th, 2003, 03:12 PM
Peace Emmaus Road

ALL of CREATION is indeed LIMITED. It is only God who is not. In the "scenario" of the "limited" God does indeed know and predict EXACTLY what He is doing, and yes

freewill is not only an illusion, but not even remotely true or possible.

enjoy!

smaller

*Acts9_12Out*
January 9th, 2004, 03:32 PM
:ha:

What did the calvinist say after he fell and broke his leg?

"I sure am glad that's over with!"

Clete
January 12th, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by smaller
I prefer to leave Him as He has presented. Eternal. Eternal has no BOUNDRIES and we cannot DEFINE Him or LIMIT Him in ANY WAY.

To do so is IDOLOTRY.

smaller
Really? Are you sure you don't wish to modify this statement somewhat?

Is God free to rape your mother?
Or would you say that crosses a boundry somewhere?

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I appologize to all those who don't agree with smaller for the offensive nature of my question. But I just wanted to take smallers foggy logic to it furthest logical conclusion to see if it would be enough to turn the lights on inside. :idea:

Shadowx
January 13th, 2004, 11:52 AM
The Immutability of God

Plato

This syllogism reflects God's immutability from Plato's view. God is perfect. The perfect does not change. God does not change. Plato wrote in "A dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus" in The Republic :

"First we will look at it from Plato’s viewpoint:"

"The perfect does not change.God is perfect.God does not change."

Not in His righteousness no.

However,Perhaps it's because of his perfection he changes in some ways. :think:

God is love. This is perfection and the best possible state and love will change it's mind;...It will grieve...hate..etc, as we see through out the scriptures..

He changes his mind. He changes from one emotion to the next..
That's not the evidence against perfection, but the definition of it.

It's just not Plato's defininition :chuckle:

Shadowx

Shadowx
January 13th, 2004, 11:55 AM
*definition

Knight
January 13th, 2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx

The Immutability of God

Plato

This syllogism reflects God's immutability from Plato's view. God is perfect. The perfect does not change. God does not change. Plato wrote in "A dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus" in The Republic :

"First we will look at it from Plato’s viewpoint:"

"The perfect does not change.God is perfect.God does not change."

Not in His righteousness no.

However,Perhaps it's because of his perfection he changes in some ways. :think:

God is love. This is perfection and the best possible state and love will change it's mind;...It will grieve...hate..etc, as we see through out the scriptures..

He changes his mind. He changes from one emotion to the next..
That's not the evidence against perfection, but the definition of it.

It's just not Plato's defininition :chuckle:

Shadowx :first: POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12045)

Shadowx
January 13th, 2004, 06:21 PM
Wow, where to start..I had a speech all prepared..but I have forgotten it..

Lets see, I would like to thank the academy, MrsT (for her award winning frozen foods..) the Benny Hinnite 'I'm currently debating via email, for all the laughs he has brought into my life...and last but first, God, for continuing to refuse to take responsibility for the Israelites murdering their own children, no matter how hard some Calvinist try to impute it to Him doing all His pleasure...:nono:




Thanks,

Shadowx


Determinist: "You just don't like it that you are not in control"
Shadowx: "You just don't like being responsible"

Clete
January 13th, 2004, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx

Wow, where to start..I had a speech all prepared..but I have forgotten it..

Lets see, I would like to thank the academy, MrsT (for her award winning frozen foods..) the Benny Hinnite 'I'm currently debating via email, for all the laughs he has brought into my life...and last but first, God, for continuing to refuse to take responsibility for the Israelites murdering their own children, no matter how hard some Calvinist try to impute it to Him doing all His pleasure...:nono:

Thanks,

Shadowx


Determinist: "You just don't like it that you are not in control"
Shadowx: "You just don't like being responsible"

ROTFL :darwinsm:

Your response to having been chosen for POTD is just as brilliant as the POTD itself! I love it! Very sharp! Keep em comming!

Clete

LightSon
January 13th, 2004, 11:15 PM
I don't have a problem with some friendly Calvinistic mocking, even if I were a Calvinist. It just so happens that I am a long stone's throw from being there.

But the problem of God taking (or not taking) "responsibility for the Israelites murdering their own children" won't be so easily brushed aside, even by open theists. OV-ers (sometimes) come across as rather smug on this point, when in fact, by solving (at least in their mind) one small problem, they open up a new set of problems, just as formidable to OVers as the former problem is to Calvinists.

I'm looking forward to the big debate. I'd like to see a well-versed Calvinist step up to the plate. What about Hilston? He leans that way.

Shadowx
January 14th, 2004, 06:01 AM
Hello Lightstorm,

But the problem of God taking (or not taking) "responsibility for the Israelites murdering their own children" won't be so easily brushed aside, even by open theists. OV-ers (sometimes) come across as rather smug on this point, when in fact, by solving (at least in their mind) one small problem, they open up a new set of problems, just as formidable to OVers as the former problem is to Calvinists.

Care to elaborate?
I think I know what you mean, but I don't want to be presumptuous..well, I do, but I will suppress it..

You do realize this is not the only instance where God distances himself from the actions occurring, right?
The Bible has many examples of God saying, basically, I didn't command this..

I think you may find that I'm perhaps not the type of OVer that others are...
I believe God can control another person whenever he wants to. If fallen angels have this ability, God must also have it. But God is not about the business of behaving like fallen angles..
He is righteous..and I believe we can know what that means...

I believe God can't make people he wants to "freely" choose him freely choose him..
What kind of freedom am I talking about? Being able to do contrary to what God wants...
God shows us we can indeed do just that.
He made us this way, because he wants us to love him..and be able to love others..

Just a few verses..

Ac 13:22"And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all my will...'

Really?..Did God will David to murder Uriah and steal his wife? DId God want David to seduce a good mans wife and have him murdered? Then God got mad about it...?

Hmm..A man after God's own heart..Is God's heart prone to seducing other men's wives and then having them murdered?

1ki 15:5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life[B/], EXCEPT in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

Nope, God's heart nor his ways are always ours..(He says this in Isaiah 55:8) if he controls all things, they would be..

He did all God commanded, except..that which God didn't command..and was anger about.

Ps 50:17 Seeing [B]thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
Ps 50:18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.
Ps 50:19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.
Ps 50:20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son.
Ps 50:21These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

You resisted what I wanted, Now I'm going to show you the contrast between YOU and ME. You thought I was like you??

It's ok if God allows men to resist him isn't?

Jeremiah 29: 23. Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the Lord.

God is not a witness against himself of this wrong doing by Israel.
Some Calvinist have this witness though..(Against God)

I have a few Calvinist friends, one of them has been like a father to me...(70 year old somewhat retired pastor) We have had some really good fellowship..and I have learned a lot from him..(I have also learned a lot from Enyart and Hill..)
He is not as Calvinistic though as he once was.


I also administrate a chat..and I chose a Presbyterian as a co admin :chuckle:
He is also not as Calvinistic as he once was and he doesn't feel comfortable anymore with the idea that God makes all our choices for us..

So, I may come across as smug at times..with regards to some things, but that's only because I am..:chuckle:

Just kidding with you man..


Godbless,
Shadowx

P.S. A debate on the Open View between Hilston and Enyart would rock..I would pay 200.00 bucks just for a ticket in..

Shadowx
January 14th, 2004, 06:04 AM
Your response to having been chosen for POTD is just as brilliant as the POTD itself! I love it! Very sharp! Keep em comming!

Clete

Thank you Clete.

Knight
January 14th, 2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx
P.S. A debate on the Open View between Hilston and Enyart would rock..I would pay 200.00 bucks just for a ticket in.. I considered Hilston... but I am afraid he is stuck in the Matrix, i.e., obfuscation would be thick.

Shadowx
January 14th, 2004, 12:22 PM
Well, if Hilston is out..how about..Brian Schwertley lol..
I would give around 30 bucks to see that one..
Wait...I already did...


Bye the way, *lightson* I didn't mean to call you lightstorm.
We have a web we are working on called, lightstorm ministries..


Shadowx

Poly
January 14th, 2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx

Well, if Hilston is out..how about..Brian Schwertley lol..
I would give around 30 bucks to see that one..
Wait...I already did...



Shadowx
So did I and it was well worth the money!!

Shadowx
January 14th, 2004, 02:03 PM
lol..yeah it was..I have watched it a few times..

LightSon
January 14th, 2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx

Hello Lightstorm,

[you said:] But the problem of God taking (or not taking) "responsibility for the Israelites murdering their own children" won't be so easily brushed aside, even by open theists. OV-ers (sometimes) come across as rather smug on this point, when in fact, by solving (at least in their mind) one small problem, they open up a new set of problems, just as formidable to OVers as the former problem is to Calvinists.

Care to elaborate?

Not just yet. I'm letting my thoughts gel and I already owe Knight a response on my problems with OV. I've started a response, but it is coming together slowly. Just fyi, I'm lost in the middle between Calvinism and OVism, having problems with both extremes. Thanks for your patience.

Originally posted by Shadowx
Bye the way, *lightson* I didn't mean to call you lightstorm.

Yep, I was deeply offended.... ;)

Just as long as you didn't call me lightheaded or lightweight.

Shadowx
January 14th, 2004, 05:36 PM
"I already owe Knight a response on my problems with OV. I've started a response, but it is coming together slowly."


I'm sure it will be a good read :)


Shadowx

Behira
January 15th, 2004, 12:37 AM
Plato; wasn't he a Greek philosopher? If so then perhaps he was not a bible believing person. If not then his ideas should be carefully scrutinized.

Mind and emotions are not one in the same. If we say G-d does indeed change his mind; then show He changes emotion, hate, anger, sad, regret; that is not an example of changing mind; that part of the brain which analyzes, makes a conclusion and set's the will to do; emotions may be an influence to changing mind; or a result of changing the mind. One can change their mind without emotion. I planned to turn left; but I deceided to turn right. I may not have any emotions regarding this change in thought.

Shadowx
January 15th, 2004, 10:20 AM
Hello Behira
Interesting post..

*Mind and emotions* are not one in the same. If we say G-d does indeed change his mind; then show He changes emotion, hate, anger, sad, regret; that is not an example of changing mind; that part of the brain which analyzes, makes a conclusion and set's the will to do; emotions may be an influence to changing mind; or a result of changing the mind. One can change their mind without emotion. I planned to turn left; but I decided to turn right. I may not have any emotions regarding this change in thought.

God changes both..
He goes from one emotion to the next, and from one frame of mind to the next..
At times he is pleased at other times he is angered..
At times he wants to destroy the object that at times pleases him..

Can we provoke God to change from one emotion to another?
Yeah, we see God pleased and we see him displeased based on our actions. This is simply the consequences of creating beings in a manner so they can love you..
There is nothing imperfect whatsoever about that..

God gets weary with changing his mind. God gets emotional over how much he has changed his mind..

Jer 15:6Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting..

Now, is God really the one choosing Israel as a vessel for some kind of torment of Himself?
If the actions above, are not Israelis, but simply what God predecided for them to do, why does God once again say you are in this mess, because you have forsaken what I want?, not because you are doing what I want.


Eli and God

1sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed

I know I said forever to you Eli, but now..,because of what you did, forget it..
It's God's love that causes him to change his mind. If he made us with the ability to choose him; love. Then we need the ability to reject him.

And because I believe God has made us in this way, It then makes sense to me that he is frustrated at times...angry and.weary...with us..

If he had predestined every aspect of our lives, and was simply making all our choices for us, then God would be expressing emotion with himself, not us..He would be angry, frustrated..and weary of repenting over Himself, not Israel..

Notice the last part of the above verse. "Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. That is change...If one who once honored the Lord is now despising him, i.e., Eli..He will now be lightly esteemed. ..Can you be highly esteemed in God's eyes in the very act that leads to low esteme? If you utterly forsake the way God says leads to honor? You can't be highly esteemed in resisting what God wants for you that leads to high esteme..

Jeremiah 18 - Isaiah 5
I want to do a good thing with you Israel, but if you resist me (God generally allows people ,for the most part, to resist him, because he wants those he loves to love him back) It wont go for you the way I initially wanted it to..

Skip ahead to Isaiah 5, here we see the potter talking about how hard he is trying to do that work he was doing in Jeremiah 18..and he is frustrated.."I did a lot for my vineyard (vessel) to try to get it to produce for me (faith/love/obidience) but it's just not happening...
Some of them responded.., most did not..

God's actions towards us are in part based on our actions in him.
If we violate the spiritual laws that lead to blessings that God has promised, rather then the blessings, we bring misery on ourselves...

You choose

De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
De 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days:[B/] that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

If [B]you resist God's voice of a consequence you resist life and length of days.
God doesn't resist his own voice through us..

Can he not get the object of his efforts to do what he wants ?? No, not if he wants them to freely respond to Him[B/] so they can be blessed.. [B]He can't make those whom he wants to freely choose him and love him, who hate him, good..

If he wanted Eli/Israel to do rightly, freely, then he couldn't force him/them not to fall away..

"Plato; wasn't he a Greek philosopher? If so then perhaps he was not a bible believing person. If not then his ideas should be carefully scrutinized"

Yes he was and yes we need to carefully scrutinize.

Those who are of Platonic thought, with regard to God, don't seem to like the notion God may actually hold them responsible for the *control* he has given them..and that he doesn't directly control every action thtat takes place.
For which he himself says, "I didn't command this" "It's because you have forsaken me"



Godbless,
Shadowx