The Truth About God

[OKHARRY]

To All,
The idea that a Son of God from eternity was sent down and took upon Himself human form collapses as totally erroneous and is exploded on considering the passages from the Word in which Jehovah Himself says that He is the Saviour and Redeemer, as the following:

Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God beside Me? There is no righteous God and Saviour beside Me. Isa. 45:21, 22.

I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Isaiah. 43:11.

I am Jehovah your God, and you are not to acknowledge any God beside Me, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Hosea 13:4.

That all flesh may know that I am Jehovah your Saviour and your Redeemer. Isa. 49:26; 60:16.

As for our Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Isa. 47:4.

Their Redeemer, the mighty Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Jer. 50:34.

Jehovah, my rock and my Redeemer. Ps. 19:14.

Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God. Isa. 48:17; 43:14; 49:7.

Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer; I am Jehovah who makes all things, and I alone by Myself. Isa. 44:24.

Thus spoke Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth; I am the First and the Last, and there is no God beside me. Isa. 44:6.

You are Jehovah our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name. Isa. 63:16.

I will take pity with eternal mercy, thus spoke your Redeemer Jehovah. Isa. 54:8. You had redeemed me, Jehovah of truth. Ps. 31:5.

Let Israel hope in Jehovah, for there is mercy with Jehovah, with Him is very much redemption. He shall redeem Israel from all his sins. Ps. 130:7, 8.

Jehovah Zebaoth* is His name, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He shall be called the God of all the earth. Isa. 54:5.

From these and very many more passages anyone who has eyes, and a mind opened by using his eyes, can see that Jehovah God, who is one, came down and was made man in order to effect redemption. Jesus Christ is Jehovah God in the Human, as in John 14:8 "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." The Lord was talking about Himself, not some other person.

Can anyone fail to see this as clear as in morning light, so long as he pays attention to those very sayings of God which have been quoted?

Those, however, who are plunged in the shades of night as the result of convincing themselves that a trinity of three persons was before creation, and the second person (son of god) was sent from eternity, and that it was He who came down and redeemed us, close their eyes to those Divine sayings above, and ponder with their eyes shut how to pervert them and make them square with their false ideas.

Harry

[frostmanj]

What part of the Trinity do you disagree with?

Is it the part that says that Jesus is God in the flesh? (we seem to agree).

Phil. 2:6-11: who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Is it the part that the Father Created all things? (I think we agree)

1 Cor. 8:6: yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Is it the part that says that the Spirit is also God? (I think we agree)

1John 4:2: By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God.

Or is it the part that says that the Son, the Father, and the Spirit are in fact one? (I think we again agree)

Trinitarians (contrary to popular opinion by some) do not believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate entities. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate personalities of the Same entity, that of God.

FrostmanJ

[Skeptic]

The truth is, God is just a myth. And there is no rational reason to believe the Bible is anything but a collection of fairy tales, with some historical accuracy regarding people and places.

[frostmanj]

Skeptic,

I won't try to convince you using a bible passage. (frankly, I find anyone who comes trying to prove one concept with another I don't believe in to be a little dense). Is there nothing in your life that you believe in without proof?

FrostmanJ

[Sealeaf]

There exists a close relation between Jesus and the being we believe created the universe(the Creator, God the Father) and between Jesus and the being we believe sustains and improves the universe( the Holy Spirit). How then are we to discribe this relationship? Jesus calls God "Father". We can assume that this is an analogy, not an exact statement of relationship. But we don't really know. We are free to speculate but is risky to let our speculations carry us too far or to confuse what we think with the little we are actually told.

We do know that when the Jews were scandalized because they took what Jesus said, to mean that He claimed to be on approximately the same level with God, He did not correct them. Instead He let them be outraged. All He had to say was, "no.no I did't mean it like that" but He did not say it. He let their interpatation stand.

[frostmanj]

Sealeaf,

I think it is obvious where I stand on this.

How would you characterize the relationship between God, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ? I'm not being argumentative. I am just curious. I guess I'm just trying to find out where your views lie so I don't jump to conclusions.

Respectfully
FrostmanJ

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by frostmanj
Is there nothing in your life that you believe in without proof? I believe in a lot of things for which I do not have proof. But I don't believe in things for which there is simply no evidence whatsoever! I believe in the probability of things for which there is sufficient empirical evidence (not proof). For example, based on what I know about what has been discovered in the fields of biology and astronomy, I believe it is probable (not certain) that life exists elsewhere in the universe.

As for souls, God, gods, or anything supernatural, I have seen no empirical evidence for these, and have no rational reason to believe that such things are possible, let alone probable.

[Shaun]

As for souls, God, gods, or anything supernatural, I have seen no empirical evidence for these, and have no rational reason to believe that such things are possible, let alone probable.
Do you believe in quantum mechanics? There's no empirical evidence for that. What about conscience? Metaphysics? The Big Bang?

Or are you just mixing up philosophy and science again, as so many scientific dabblers do?

Shaun
dabble dots, free near you!
tastes like real science,
without the extra reading!

[RogerB]

As for souls, God, gods, or anything supernatural, I have seen no empirical evidence for these, and have no rational reason to believe that such things are possible, let alone probable....and I'll ignore all the first hand accounts of how God is working in your lives if I want to!

[OMEGA]

If you want Absolute Proof that God exists

then just DROP DEAD and you will have your PROOF .


Either you will be Resurrected in 1000 years or Not .

------------------------

To OK HARRY ,

Jesus our Lord was the LORD GOD of the Old Testament

and therefore, fulfulled the Prophesies of the New Testament.


:thumb:

[OKHARRY]

From Swedenborg's writings:
The doctrine of three Divine persons, both in past ages and at the present day, has sprung solely from a failure to understand the Divine Esse.

That the unity of God is inmostly inscribed on the mind of every man, since it lies at the center of all that flows from God into the soul of man, and yet it has not descended into the human understanding, for the reason that the knowledges by which man must ascend to meet God have been lacking.

For everyone must prepare the way for God, that is, must prepare himself for reception, and this is done by means of knowledges.

The knowledges that have been lacking, and that enable the understanding to penetrate far enough to see that God is one, and that not more than one Divine Esse is possible.

Harry

[OMEGA]

Then how do you account for Jesus saying that

Abraham was Glad to see him ???



(John 8:56 KJV) "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

(John 8:57 KJV) "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?"

(John 8:58 KJV) "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

:bannana:

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by RogerB
(putting words in my mouth)....and I'll ignore all the first hand accounts of how God is working in your lives if I want to! There are other more rational reasons to explain why some Christians lives are "working." Some people's lives might be improved, in part, because of their belief in God. Strong beliefs about anything can influence people's lives. However, there is no empirical evidence that any of this improvement is due to their relationship with a mythical God.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Shaun
Do you believe in quantum mechanics? There's no empirical evidence for that. There is vast empirical evidence that shows that quantum mechanics explains the subatomic world very well!

See: http://web.mit.edu/redingtn/www/netadv/X0Q.html

What about conscience? A psychological behavior derived from the interaction between one's brain, learning history, and social influences.

Metaphysics? It depends on what you mean by "metaphysics."

See: http://websyte.com/alan/metamul.htm

Much of the popular stuff is simply bull.

The Big Bang? Plenty of evidence:
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm

See also:
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/errors.html

Or are you just mixing up philosophy and science again, as so many scientific dabblers do? No.

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by OMEGA
Then how do you account for Jesus saying that

Abraham was Glad to see him ???



(John 8:56 KJV) "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

(John 8:57 KJV) "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?"

(John 8:58 KJV) "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

:bannana:

The Lord wasn't talking about Himself as the second person of the Divine trinity before creation. He was talking about Himself as Jehovah God, for it was He who spoke with Abraham. The Son of God wasn't until Jehovah God became Man, born of the virgin Mary.

Before the world was created this Trinity was not, but after creation, when God became incarnated, it was provided and brought about, and then in the Lord God the Redeemer and Savior Jesus Christ.

In the Christian church at the present day a Divine trinity existing before the creation of the world is acknowledged.

That Jehovah God begat a Son from eternity, and that the Holy Spirit then went forth from both, and that each of these three is by Himself or singly God, because each is one person subsisting of Himself.

But as this is incomprehensible to all reason it is called a mystery, which can be penetrated only in this way-that these three have one Divine essence, by which is meant eternity, immensity, omnipotence, and thus an equal Divinity, glory, and majesty.

But that this trinity is a trinity of three Gods, and therefore in no sense a Divine trinity.It's like reason haven no part , but has been lulled to sleep, and still it compels the mouth to speak like a parrot. And when reason is put to sleep what is speech from the mouth but dead speech? When the mouth utters that which reason turns away from and dissents from, is not speech foolish?


Like the foolish ideas about God coming from the mouths of learneth men of the church. Their reasoning has been put to sleep and still they open their mouths and speak like a parrot.
Harry

[Sozo]

Hey Harry... who is speaking in these verses?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

"Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One"

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

"Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He."

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Sozo
Hey Harry... who is speaking in these verses?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

"Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One"

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

"Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He."

Hey Harry, why are you ignoring my question?

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by Sozo
Hey Harry... who is speaking in these verses?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

"Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One"

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

"Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He."


From myself:

God saided in Isaiah, I am the First and the Last.
Jehovah God saided these word in Isaiah, but Jesus Christ also saided the samething in Revelation. Therefore Jesus Christ is Jehovah God Almighty in the Human, as the Lord saided in John 14:8, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." I have posted this passage many time and yet people here still don't believe He is the Father.AMEN

Harry

[OMEGA]

JESUS is not " God the Father "

but the Lord Jehovah is his name from the Old Testament.

God the Father was only introduced in the New Testament .

Therefore, there are only 2 Gods , Jesus and the Father .
]

:cheers:

[frostmanj]

TWO Gods... (Plural).... more than one? Aren't you treading a mite close to blasphemy there OMEGA?

Why is it so hard to grasp the basic premise of the Trinity?

Jesus is God.
The Father is God.
The Spirit is God.
All three are one.

Even OKHARRY Said

Therefore Jesus Christ is Jehovah God Almighty in the Human

If you believe as I do that Jesus Christ was God Incarnate, what else could we be debating?

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by OMEGA
JESUS is not " God the Father "

but the Lord Jehovah is his name from the Old Testament.

God the Father was only introduced in the New Testament .

Therefore, there are only 2 Gods , Jesus and the Father .
]

:cheers:

I am Jehovah, and besides Me there is no Savior (Isa. 43:11).

Am not I Jehovah, and there is none besides Me, and there is no Savior besides Me. Look unto Me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth (Isa. 45:21, 22).

I am Jehovah thy God, and there is no Savior besides Me (Hos. 13:4).

Thou hast redeemed me, O Jehovah God of truth (Ps. 26:5).

Jesus and Jehovah are the same God. Jesus is Jehovah God seen by men.

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. With God, means, in God, for truth is in good and good is in truth.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

The New Church is the crown of all the churches that have existed on the earth, because it is to worship one visible God in whom is the invisible like the soul in the body.

Thus, and not otherwise, is a conjunction of God with man possible because man is natural, and therefore thinks naturally, and conjunction must exist in his thought, and thus in his love's affection, and this is the case when he thinks of God as a Man.

Conjunction with an invisible God is like a conjunction of the eye's vision with the expanse of the universe, the limits of which are invisible. Like searching for a star too far for the eye to see.

It is also like vision in mid-ocean, which reaches out into the air and upon the sea, and is lost.A conjunction with a visible God, on the other hand, is like beholding a man in the air or on the sea spreading forth his hands and inviting to his arms.

For all conjunction of God with man must be also a reciprocal conjunction of man with God. No such reciprocation is possible except with a visible God. That before the assumption of the Human, God was not visible.

The Lord Himself also teaches in John:
Ye have neither heard the voice of the Father at any time, nor seen His form (5:37).

And in Moses:
That no one can see God and live (Ex. 33:20).

But that He is visible through His Humanity is stated in
John:
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath manifested Him (1:18).

And in the same:
Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one cometh unto the Father but by Me.

He that knoweth Me, knoweth the Father, and he that seeth Me seeth the Father (14:6, 7, 9).

That there is a conjunction with the invisible God through the visible, that is, through the Lord.

He teaches in the following passages:
Jesus said, Abide in Me, and I in you; he that abideth in Me and I in him, the same beareth much fruit (John 15:4, 5).

In that day ye shall know that I am in the Father, and ye in Me and I in you (John 14:20).

The glory which thou hast given Me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one; I in them and Thou in Me: that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them (John 17:21-23, 26; also 6:56).

It is also taught that He and the Father are one,as the soul and body are one in man, and that in order to have eternal life man must believe in Him. That salvation depends on conjunction with God has been frequently shown above. Amen

Harry

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by frostmanj
TWO Gods... (Plural).... more than one? Aren't you treading a mite close to blasphemy there OMEGA?

Why is it so hard to grasp the basic premise of the Trinity?

Jesus is God.
The Father is God.
The Spirit is God.
All three are one.

Even OKHARRY Said

If you believe as I do that Jesus Christ was God Incarnate, what else could we be debating?

Why don't you add more to the list to prove God's Divine Essence.

Harry

[GaKat]

Skeptic ~ Actually the Bible does make sense if it is approached with a better understanding of "what is truth?" There is a definition of the word "truth" in many dictionaries which are published and distributed worldwide. If people would use the definition to better understand "what is verifiable truth? (evidences support a truth)," and "what is possible truth (lacks evidence but two or more similar/consistent reports support a possibility of truth)" then it would help them to better understand what is unverifiable and inconsistent in the Bible. Many people's beliefs conform to unverifiable and inconsistent.

Unfortunately, many people who go by unverifiable beliefs will not adhere to the universal definition of the word "truth" because their beliefs will not conform to verifiable truth and often not even to possible truth. They willingly accept unverifiable beliefs to be their truth and often minister/witness their unverifiable beliefs to others as truth. I don't think they realize they are considered a false witness according to judicial law for ministering an unverifiable belief to other's as truth. It is apparent that many people forget the Almighty God is the God of truth. Do they ever consider that God may judge us the same way we have learned to judge others according to "what is truth?"

I recently submitted a thread titled, "The OT Sword Prophecies and Jesus" that I think reasonably conforms to a possible truth. There are many consistent/similar OT and NT scriptures that establish the possibility that Jesus' pupose was to fulfill the role of the sword. And when you consider what has taken place since the time of Jesus until now, then it makes more sense and seems to support the possibility that Jesus' purpose as the sword was/is fulfilled. This also helps me to better understand there is a God and there are truth's and possible truth's in the Bible. And like it is said in Proverbs chapter 2, you must seek knowledge of God as if seeking for hidden treasures.

If people would seriously read and consider with an open mind the scriptures and comparison's along with the chapters associated with the references that I posted in the thread, "The OT Sword Prophecies and Jesus," then I think they might better understand the possibility that Jesus is the sword that God said He would send among us. Especially when they realize the "sword" is a significant part of the curse that was poured out on us because of our ancestors willingness to forsake the God of truth for false gods and false beliefs. And the curse poured out on us will cause us to continue in our ancestors ways unless we break the curse by seeking to better understand "what is truth" and stop accepting and/or relaying to other's unverifiable beliefs as the truth.

It is also my understanding that there will be a coming Messianic representative. According to similarities/consistencies among many of our world religions, the Messiah will be a human man and enlightened with supreme knowledge of God and His truth's. By his knowledge, the Messiah will be able to support and prove the truth's of God with verifiable evidences so there will be no doubts. If you would like to read and consider the similar/consistent profile of the Messiah prophecied to come in many world religions then please see the chapter about the Messiah in World Scripture: http://www.unification.net/ws/

It is also my understanding that many will not recognize the Messiah because they will fail to recognize him as a human man with supreme knowledge. Many expect miracle powers to get their attention. He will come offering the verifiable truth's of God and many will turn away because they cannot let go of their unverifiable beliefs and their expectations of the Messiah associated with their unverifiable beliefs.

Kat

[prodigalson]

From Jonathan Edwards. www.jonathanedwards.com

Jesus Christ The Same Yesterday, Today, And Forever.

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Doctrine/The%20Same.htm

An Unpublished Essay on the Trinity

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/text/trinity.htm

[Aimiel]

Our beliefs are verifiable, and are the ONLY ones that are, since The Father give us the revelation of Who Jesus is (The Christ, The Messiah, The Almighty God, The Everlasting Father and The Prince of Peace; to name just a few) through The Holy Ghost. The other gods, and most every text other than The Holy Bible point to other gods, or false gods, take your pick, can neither hear or speak. Our God not only speaks, He sent His Son to die in our place so we could have eternal life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Our understanding of The Holy Trinity should be easy, since man has a 'triune' nature: we are spirit-beings, who have a soul (personality) and live in a body of flesh. God made us in His Image. He is A Spirit, has Personality and lives in A Body. He is One.

[GaKat]

FamousGandalf7 ~ I am open-minded and welcome you to explain your beliefs about how the Almighty God revealed "who is Jesus" to you through the Holy Ghost (aka the "Comforter" & the "Spirit of truth").

According to scriptures, it is my understanding that Jesus possibly understood his purpose to fulfill the role of the sword. Please read and compare the scriptures. They reveal the possible truth themselves.

Le 26:25 - And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

Mt 10:34 - Think not that I (Jesus) am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Lu 12:51 - Suppose ye that I (Jesus) am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:


In Matt 26:31 & Mr 14:27 (scriptures follow below), Jesus implies that he is fulfilling the OT scripture Zec 13:7. Take a close look at Zec 11:17 (darkness) and compare to Mt 10:27.

Mt 26:31 - Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. (see also Mr 14:27)

Zec 9:13 - When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.


Zec 11:17 - Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Zec 13:7 - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Mt 10:27 - What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.


Compare Mt 10:27 to Isa 8:20 & 1Joh 1:5: Why does Jesus speak in darkness? There is no darkness in the Almighty God.

Isa 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1Joh 1:5 - This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


(compare Ez 39:17-19 to Joh 6:54-56)

Eze 39:17-23 17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. 18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. 19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. 20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD. 21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. 23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Joh 6: 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my (Jesus) flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Read and compare Mt 11:30 (Jesus' burden) to Jer 23:34-40, then read what God says he will do in Jer 23:40:

Matthew 11:25-30 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jer 23:34-40 34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house. 35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God. 37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 38 But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD; 39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: 40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Kat

[Aimiel]

Since I don't (obviously) have your thoughts, could you please give them to me. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[GaKat]

famousgandalf7 ~ Thank you for your consideration to respond to my reply. What I am saying is that it is my understanding according to scriptures that Jesus' purpose was possibly to fulfill the role of the "sword" that God said he would send among us. The "sword" is a significant part of a curse (see Deu 28:1-68) that is poured out on us and one of the Four Sore Judgements (see Eze ch. 14). In Ps 17:13, it says the "sword" is wicked, and Pr 25:18, says a man that beareth false witness against his neighbor is a sword.

There are 384 scriptures in the KJV BIble with the word "sword" in them. Many are about the "sword" that God said He would send to consume us. You can review the scriptures at the following Bible study link:

http://www.biblestudytools.net/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=sword&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=jer&NavGo=17&NavCurrentChapter=17

The Holman Bible Dictionary says there are many symbolic uses for the word "sword" in the Bible. Using a few scripture references I will offer the symbolic uses that I understand are used in the Bible. In Gen 3:24, God placed a flaming sword at the east of the Garden of Eden to guard the tree of life, in Lev 26:25, the sword is sent to avenge the quarrel of God's covenant, a sword is one of the Four Sore Judgements in Eze 14:21, a sword and/or spear is used as a weapon of war as in 1Sam 13:22 & 17:28, a man who is deceitful by his words and actions is considered to be wicked and a sword according to Ps 17:13 & Pr 25:18 , and in the NT there is "one" scripture that says, Eph 6:7 "take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

Jeremiah prophecies a warning that curses any man that makes flesh the arm of God: It also says in Nu 23:19 and Hosea 11:9, that God is not a man.

Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD

Please read the following scriptures, they may help you to better understand the role of the sword.

Eze 21:1-32 1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel, 3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked. 4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: 5 That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more. 6 Sigh therefore, thou son of man, with the breaking of thy loins; and with bitterness sigh before their eyes. 7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD. 8 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 9 Son of man, prophesy, and say, Thus saith the LORD; Say, A sword, a sword is sharpened, and also furbished: 10 It is sharpened to make a sore slaughter; it is furbished that it may glitter: should we then make mirth? it contemneth the rod of my son, as every tree. 11 And he hath given it to be furbished, that it may be handled: this sword is sharpened, and it is furbished, to give it into the hand of the slayer. 12 Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh. 13 Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD. 14 Thou therefore, son of man, prophesy, and smite thine hands together, and let the sword be doubled the third time, the sword of the slain: it is the sword of the great men that are slain, which entereth into their privy chambers. 15 I have set the point of the sword against all their gates, that their heart may faint, and their ruins be multiplied: ah! it is made bright, it is wrapped up for the slaughter. 16 Go thee one way or other, either on the right hand, or on the left, whithersoever thy face is set. 17 I will also smite mine hands together, and I will cause my fury to rest: I the LORD have said it. 18 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 19 Also, thou son of man, appoint thee two ways, that the sword of the king of Babylon may come: both twain shall come forth out of one land: and choose thou a place, choose it at the head of the way to the city. 20 Appoint a way, that the sword may come to Rabbath of the Ammonites, and to Judah in Jerusalem the defenced. 21 For the king of Babylon stood at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination: he made his arrows bright, he consulted with images, he looked in the liver. 22 At his right hand was the divination for Jerusalem, to appoint captains, to open the mouth in the slaughter, to lift up the voice with shouting, to appoint battering rams against the gates, to cast a mount, and to build a fort. 23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken. 24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand. 25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end (see also Dan 11:31-45 & compare to Lu 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. ), 26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. 27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him. 28 And thou, son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning the Ammonites, and concerning their reproach; even say thou, The sword, the sword is drawn: for the slaughter it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering: 29 Whiles they see vanity unto thee, whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of the wicked, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end. 30 Shall I cause it to return into his sheath (compare to Matt 26:52)? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity. 31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy. 32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

Job 19:29 - Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.

Job 20:25 - It is drawn, and cometh out of the body; yea, the glittering sword cometh out of his gall: terrors are upon him. (Compare to Lu 9:29 And as he (Jesus) prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering

Job 27:14 - If his children be multiplied, it is for the sword: and his offspring shall not be satisfied with bread. (compare to Matt 26:26)

Job 36:12 - But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge. (compare to Isa 29:10-14)

Job 40:19 - He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. (compare to Job 1:6-7 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.)

Ps 17:13 - Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:

Ps 37:15 - Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

Ps 78:62 - He gave his people over also unto the sword; and was wroth with his inheritance.

Pr 25:18 - A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.

Isa 34:5 - For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea (compare to Mr 3:8), and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Mark 3:8 - And from Jerusalem (compare to Eze 21:1-3, emphasis on vs 2), and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him (Jesus).

Jer. 25:15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. 16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

John 18:11 - Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? (also compare to Matt 26:26-28)

Jer 25:16 - And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

Jer 25:27 - Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.

Jer 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

Simeon says to Mary in Lu 2:34-35, "Behold, this child (Jesus) is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy (Mary's) own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

In Mt 10:27, Jesus says to his disciples:

Mt 10:27 - What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Isaiah 5:20, warns us about putting darkness for light. And remember, the coming Messiah is suppose to eat butter and honey which is sweet (Isa 7:15), Jesus drank wine which is bitter (Mt 11:19 & Lu 7:34).

Isa 5:20, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Mt 11:19 - The Son of man (Jesus) came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. (See also Lu 7:34)

Jesus is called a King (Luke 23:2-3), a prophet (Luke 7:16), a priest (Hebrews 2:17), and a prince (Rev.1:5) in the NT. Jesus drank wine and by his own admission was called a winebibber, but according to Proverbs and Isaiah, he should not have drank at all.

Pr 31:4 - 5 4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment


If you are wondering why I am here to reveal the possibility that Jesus' purpose was to fulfill the role of the sword, please read and consider what Eze 33:1-9 says.

Eze 33:1-9 1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: 3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; 4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. 6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. 7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. 8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul

Kat

[Aimiel]

That's interesting.

You reminded me, though, of what The Holy Spirit is, He is The Word of God:

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; and for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

I believe that most Christians don't have any armor on, especially their Sword. The Shield is sometimes in their hand, but they have never learned how to use it. I also believe that many of them are useless, when it comes to battle against the enemy, and are blind to his constant barrages.

[OKHARRY]

Out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword going forth, signifies the dispersion of falsities by the Word, and by doctrine thence from the Lord. Mention is very often made in the Word of "sword," "saber," and "long sword," and by them nothing else is signified but truth fighting against falsities and destroying them.

In the opposite sense, the falsity fighting against truths.For by "wars" in the Word, are signified spiritual wars, which are wars of truth against falsity, and of falsity against truth; wherefore, by "the arms of war," such things are signified as are made use of in spiritual wars.

That the dispersion of falsities by the Lord is here meant by sword [romphoea] is evident, because, it was seen "to go out of his mouth;" and to go out of the mouth of the Lord, is to go out of the Word, for this the Lord spoke with His mouth; and as the Word is understood by doctrine, thence this is also signified. It is called "a sharp two-edged sword," because it penetrates the heart and soul.

To show that by "sword" is here meant the dispersion of falsities by the Word from the Lord, some passages shall be adduced in which sword is mentioned:
A sword against Babylon, her princes, and her wise ones. O sword against the liars that they may become foolish. O sword against the mighty, that they may be dismayed. O sword against her horses, and her chariots. O sword against her treasures, that they may be despoiled. A drought is upon her waters, that they may be dried up (Jer. 50:35-38).

These things are said of Babylon ( Catholic Church) , by which those are meant who falsify and adulterate the Word, therefore by the "liars" who will become foolish, and the "horses and chariots" upon whom there is a sword, and the "treasures" which will be despoiled, are signified the falsities of their doctrine.

That the "waters" upon which is a drought that they may be dried up, signify truths, may be seen above.

Prophesy, and say, A sword is sharpened, and also furbished, sharpened to make a great slaughter; and let the sword be repeated the third time; the sword of the pierced; the sword of a great piercing, penetrating the inner parts, that stumbling blocks may be multiplied (Ezek. 21:9-20).

By "sword" is here also meant the devastation of truth in the church.
Jehovah will plead by His sword with all flesh, and the pierced of Jehovah shall be multiplied (Isa. 66:16).

They are called "the pierced of Jehovah" here, and in other parts of the Word, who perish by falsities.

The wasters are come upon all the hills in the wilderness; the sword of Jehovah is devouring from the end of the earth, even to the end of the earth (Jer. 12:12).

We get our bread with the peril of our lives, because of the sword of the wilderness (Lam. 5:9).

Woe to the worthless shepherd that deserteth the flock; the sword shall be upon his arm and upon his right eye (Zech. 11:17).

The sword upon the right eye of the shepherd is the falsity of his understanding.
The sons of men are inflamed, their tongue is a sharp sword (Ps. 57:4).

Behold they belch out with their mouth; a sword is in their lips (Ps. 59:7).

The workers of iniquity whet their tongue like a sword (Ps. 64:3).

The same is signified by @sword in other places, as in Isa. 13:13, 15; 21:14-15; 27:1; 31:7-8; Jer. 2:30; 5:12; 11:22; 14:13-18; Ezek. 7:15; 32:10-12.

Hence it may appear what the Lord meant by "sword" in the following passages:
Jesus said, He came not to send peace on earth, but a sword (Matt. 10:34).

Jesus said, He that hath not a purse and a scrip, let him sell his garments and buy a sword. The disciples said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And He said unto them, It is enough (Luke 22:36, 38).

All they that take the sword, shall perish with the sword (Matt. 26:51-52).

Jesus says, concerning the consummation of the age:
They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations, and at length Jerusalem shall be trodden down (Luke 21:24).

"The consummation of the age" is the last time of the church; "the sword" is falsity destroying truth; the "nations" are evils; "Jerusalem" which shall be trodden down, is the church.

Hence, then, it is evident, that by "a sharp sword going out of the mouth of the Son of man," is signified the dispersion of falsities by the Lord by means of the Word.

From myself: The sword of God means the Word.

The same is signified in the following passages in Revelation:
And there was given unto him who sat upon the red horse a great sword (Rev. 6:4).

And out of the mouth of Him who sat upon the white horse goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse (Rev. 19:15, 21).By "Him who sat upon the white horse," the Lord as to the Word, is meant, which is plainly declared (verses 13, 16).

The same is meant in David:
Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O Mighty One. Ride upon the word of truth. Thine arrows are sharp (Ps. 45:3-5).

Speaking of the Lord. And in another place:
The saints shall exult, and the sword of their mouths is in their hand (Ps. 149:5-6).

And in Isaiah:
Jehovah hath made my mouth a sharp sword (Isa. 49:2).

Harry

[Aimiel]

You should stop pounding this 'sword thing' of yours into the ground, you're making it dull. Although there is something to be said for doing just that, if you're in a slippery place, and need to re-gain your footing. Your sword can be used for many purposes, not the least of which is to keep you from falling from 'The Mountian of The Lord,' as you ascend towards His Presence. Many have fallen, because they did not think of using The Word to give them purchase in their 'predicament.' The Word is something which we all need to learn to use, even upon ourselves. This is the reason The Sword is two-eged, because it cuts both ways; it divides and makes room for itself, making the hearer and the speaker better, because they heard it.

[GaKat]

HARRY ~ Thank you for your consideration to reply. I appologize for the delay in responding, my family and I are leaving for a vacation this Saturday and I've been busy with preparations.

Our understanding of the sword differs in that you understand the sword to be the word of God (truth) and I understand the sword is a deceitful man (Ps 17:13 - Arise, O LORD, disappoint "him", cast "him" down: deliver my soul from "the wicked, which is thy sword:" & Pr 25:18 A "man" that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and "a sword," and a sharp arrow.) (compare also: Pro 12:17-18 & Prov 6:16-23)

I first look to the OT to better understand how the NT might fulfill the prophecies. The one scripture in Ephesians 6:17 is not consistent with the OT scriptures that reference the sword. In Hebrews 4:12, I understand the word of God is sharper than the twoedged sword meaning the sword's words (deceits and flatteries - twoedged possibly could mean mixing lies with the truth) do not compare in power to God's sure truth's. Please read and consider: Heb 4:12 : "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and "sharper than any" twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Because the two NT scriptures (Eph 6:17 & Heb 4:12) lack consistency with each other and lack consistency with the OT sword scriptures, I consider them as unreliable for now.

Please consider God preserves the simple (Ps 19:7) and out of His mouth cometh knowledge and understanding (Pro 2:6). And all of His works are done in truth (Ps 33:4).

My intent for posting the sword scripture references was/is to extend an opportunity to others to consider the strong reasonable possibility that Jesus fulfilled the role of the "sword" that was/is sent among us. His purpose was/is to flatter and deceive many so they willingly continue worshipping a false god/s to the end of days. This was prophecied to happen as a curse that was poured out (deep sleep is poured out on our understanding) to cause many to willingly continue in the sin of our ancestors. If you recall, the curse is poured out because of God's fury with His people continually forsaking Him for false god's/idols. The curse will cause a famine (lack of knowledge and understanding of God's truth's) when the sword's deceits and flatteries consume people and cause them to willingly accept unverifiable beliefs as their understanding of truth. When the people relay their unverifiable beliefs to other's as God's truth, they become like the deceitful sword (a false witness). Therefore they will receive the same punishment as the deceitful sword on Judgement Day. When God reveals His truth's then many people will suddenly and profoundly understand how they allowed themselves to forsake Him for the sword. (Please read Ezekial ch. 21 to achieve your own understanding of how people are prophecied to react when they learn the truth)

According to the scriptures I understand a remnant will be left who will be able to help other's who will then see and understand. (see Eze 15:21-23).

I understand "verifiable truth" is supported by evidence/s that prove something is true. "Possible truth" can be established by reasonable similarities/consistencies among two or more written statements/reports. Possible truth lacks evidence/s to support it as sure truth therefore I will only relay it to other's as a reasonable "possibility of truth." When I read two or more reports about the same event and they lack consistency and/or evidences to support a verifiable truth and/or possible truth then I consider the statement/report as unreliable. When I read and investigate the Bible I use the Dictionary definition of truth that is published in many languages and distributed worldwide so that all people can achieve a similar understanding of how to determine a right understanding of "what is truth." Using the definition of truth makes it simple to determine what is truth and helps me to better understand what is truth/possible truth in the Bible.

Please read and consider the following scriptures in Job and how the sword/man mounts up to heaven by deceit and what God says will happen to the sword/man:

Job 19:29 - Be ye afraid of the "sword:" for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.
Job 20:1-29 1 Then answered Zophar the Naamathite, and said, 2 Therefore do my thoughts cause me to answer, and for this I make haste. 3 I have heard the check of my reproach, and the spirit of my understanding causeth me to answer. 4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, 5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? 6 Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; 7 Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he? 8 He shall fly away as a dream, and shall not be found: yea, he shall be chased away as a vision of the night. 9 The eye also which saw him shall see him no more; neither shall his place any more behold him. 10 His children shall seek to please the poor, and his hands shall restore their goods. 11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust. 12 Though wickedness be sweet in his mouth, though he hide it under his tongue; 13 Though he spare it, and forsake it not; but keep it still within his mouth: 14 Yet his meat in his bowels is turned, it is the gall of asps within him. 15 He hath swallowed down riches, and he shall vomit them up again: God shall cast them out of his belly. 16 He shall suck the poison of asps: the viper's tongue shall slay him. 17 He shall not see the rivers, the floods, the brooks of honey and butter. 18 That which he laboured for shall he restore, and shall not swallow it down: according to his substance shall the restitution be, and he shall not rejoice therein. 19 Because he hath oppressed and hath forsaken the poor; because he hath violently taken away an house which he builded not; 20 Surely he shall not feel quietness in his belly, he shall not save of that which he desired. 21 There shall none of his meat be left; therefore shall no man look for his goods. 22 In the fulness of his sufficiency he shall be in straits: every hand of the wicked shall come upon him. 23 When he is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating. 24 He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through. 25 It is drawn, and cometh out of the body; yea, the glittering sword cometh out of his gall: terrors are upon him. 26 All darkness shall be hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle. 27 The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth shall rise up against him. 28 The increase of his house shall depart, and his goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath. 29 This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God.

I offer this information as a strong reasonable possibility and extend the opportunity to other's to read and investigate the possibility for their own understanding. I think people should have the opportunity to know another reasonable possibility exists that Jesus might fulfill the role of the sword/man. If people will research this information, they might agree it is a reasonable possibility and hopefully they will understand that I want to help people, not hurt them.

May the Almighty God bless and guide you.

Kat

[OKHARRY]

Kay,
"wars" in the Word signify spiritual combats . Hence all "the arms of war," as "the bow," "the sword," "the shield," signify something of spiritual combat.

"Kingdoms" signify churches as to truths and as to falsities.

"Nations" signify those in the church who are in goods and who are in evils.

"Famine" signifies a defect of the knowledges of good and truth. It also signifies the desolation of the church.

"Pestilence" signifies the vastation and consummation of good and truth.

"Earthquakes" signify changes of the state of the church.

Harry

[geralduk]

LOL.

YOU CAN always ASSERT a 'truth' to the detrement of all other scripture if you only take ONE PART of it.

But how do you explain the verse when the disciples asked Him to teach them to pray.
and He siad "after like manner"or according to this pattern you should pray.
"OUR FATHER"!
Now if you say that Jesus was the FATHER this dioes not fit in with your theory or the scriptures.
Nor does the verse which contains the part where the lord said "MY God and YOUR GOD".
I then it was the FATHER jehovah WHO WAS ON EARTH made flesh then who was He praying to while on earth!?
or for that matter speaking to.
and who was it who spoke at His baptism!
from heaven if He was on earth!?
Now I cant make you think anything you dont want to.
But taking a PART of scripture and ignoring all the others that contradict it says at the very least! you need to RETHINk your thinking!
The (APPARANT)contradictions of scripture are a wonderfull blessing if you let them speak for themselves and not try and squeeze OUR theology INTO Gods.
the scriptures are not there to be subject unto us but are there that we may renew OUR minds and be conformed to them.#

I fear you START from the wrong place.
In that first you deny the nature of the Godhead as HE has revealed in in sundry times and in divers ways and in theses last days by His SON.
and then try and FIT the scriptures to whatever 'school' of theology you have been taught in.

The Bible is a WHOLE and indivisible book.
made up of many parts.
but each and EVERY part DOVETAILING with its neighbour and all harmonized with all "line upon line precept upon precept"
and all working to that good ;the enlightenment of man.

So let any verse or passage of scripture be read and UNDERSTOOD in the LIGHT of all the scriptures.
Not the other way around.

[OKHARRY]

The Lord's Prayer, which says: "Our Father, who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come."

The Christian Churches today say this prayer to the Father only. This prayer most be understood that it is to the Father's Divine Human, and this too is the Father's name.

For the Lord said: "Father, glorify your name," that is, your Human. When this happens, the kingdom of God comes.

In order for this prayer to be anything you most believe that the Father became Man. His Divine Human is His right hand.

The instruction to use this prayer has been given us for the present time, that is, so that God the Father may be approached through His Human. The Lord also said: "No one comes to the Father except through Me," and the prophet Isaiah said: "A child is born for us, a Son is given to us, whose name is God, Hero, the everlasting Father".

Elsewhere: "You, Jehovah, are our Father, your Holy Name (Divine Human) is our Redeemer from of old."

There are thousands of other passages where the Lord our Saviour is called Jehovah. This is the true explanation of those words in the Lord's Prayer.'

The Lord's prayer was meant only for those who acknowledge the Lord alone as the Father, as in John 14:8, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Who else is the Father?

Harry

[OKHARRY]

God is Divinely human. Throughout the heavens one finds no other idea of God than the idea of a person. The reason is that heaven in its totality and in every part is in its form as though a single person, and it is the Divine existing in angels which forms heaven.

Thought, moreover, proceeds in accordance with the form of heaven. Consequently it is impossible for angels to think of God in any other way.

For the same reason, all people in the world who are conjoined with heaven think similarly of God when they think inwardly in themselves or in their spirit.

It is because God is human that all angels and all spirits are human beings in perfect form. The form of heaven causes this, its form being the same in its greatest and in its least constituents.

That people were created in the image and likeness of God is known from Genesis 1:26, 27; and it is also known that God appeared as a Human to Abraham and others.)

People in ancient times, from the wise to the simple among them, thought of God only as a Man, and when they eventually began to worship a plurality of gods, as they did in Athens and Rome, they worshiped them all as persons.

Harry

[Aimiel]

GaKat,

I believe that you are attributing the attributes of the deceiver (Satan) to Christ. I know that He is not a deceiver, since His Word is Truth, and also because He cannot do anything except He sees The Father do it. If He were The Deciever, how could He have gone about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil? A house divided against itself cannot stand. Can Satan cast out Satan? Not only is what you are espousing error, but it is also ridiculous.

Jesus' ministry on this earth was as The Lamb of God. When He returns as The Lion, there will be no mis-understanding His Word. It will destroy His Enemies. Those who teach that He is a deceiver will be among the dead.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by GaKat
It is apparent that many people forget the Almighty God is the God of truth. Is that a verifiable truth? Or do you believe this just because the Bible says so?

[okinrus]

No because our heart says so. If we were to disbelieve in God our concience would convict us and we would be filled with everlasting gloom.

[geralduk]

The 'lords PRAYER' as it is called is NOT a prayer as such.
Nor should we use it in "vain repertition"
What the CONTEXT was that the apsotles asked the |ord to TEACH them to pray.
There is a WORLD of difference between SAYING a prayer and praying!
If you think about is it serioosly sugested that this is the LORDS prayer in that everytime "He went up the mountain to pray" He prayed this prayer?
of course not.
But what He replied was "In LIKE manner pray"
meaning AFTER THIS PATTERN we should pray.
Not slavishly foloing the words.
But with UNDERSTANDING of WHO we are PRAYING TO.
" OUR FATHER"
and whith the concios realization of where WE are and above all where HE is:
"who art in HEAVEN"
With a HOLY REVERENCE pray with the supreme regard that "HALLOWED BE THY NAME"
making FIRST priority when we pray to be "THY KINGDOM come"and THY will be done.
For BEFORE all ELSE this must be sought FIRST "then all these other things shall be added unto you"
Even this hardly touches the subject.
but God gave Moses a PATTERN of the tabernacle WHICH " I WILL SHOW YOU"
And that pattern shows you do not just breeeze into the prescence of God without thought or reason.
But in entering the FIRST thing that sobers you is the place of sacrafice.
then .............
Likewise with prayer.
The more we prepare our hearts and STOP and consider WHO it is we come to and WHERE He is and HOW He is the more EFFECTIVE and lively will be our prayers.

[OKHARRY]

The prayers of the saints, signifies from which is worship. This is evident from the signification of the "prayers of the saints," as being worship from spiritual good, "prayers," in the internal sense, mean all things of worship; and "saints" things spiritual.

For those who are in the Lord's spiritual kingdom are called in the Word "saints" [or "holy"], and those who are in His celestial kingdom are called "righteous" [or "just"].

But in the internal sense of the Word by "saints" are not meant saints [holy men], but things holy, for the term "saints" involves persons, and in the internal sense everything of person is put off, for things solely make that sense (see above; and that the angels, because they are spiritual, think abstractly from persons.

This is what distinguishes the internal sense of the Word from its external sense, which is the sense of the letter; and as "saints" thus mean things holy, and "holy" in the Word means the Divine truth proceeding from the Lord, and making His spiritual kingdom, so by "saints" things spiritual are meant, and by the "prayers of the saints" worship from spiritual good.

That worship from that good is meant by the "prayers of the saints" is evident from this, that it is said "they had golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;" and "incense" signifies all things of worship that are from spiritual good (as was shown in the preceding paragraph); from which it follows that the "prayers of the saints" has a like signification.

As also in David:
Give ear unto my voice when I call unto Thee. Let my prayers be received as incense before Thee; the lifting up of my hands as the evening meal-offering. Guard the door of my lips; let not my heart decline to evil, to do evil deeds in wickedness with the men who work iniquity; for still my prayers are in their evils (Ps. 141:1-5).

Here also "prayers" are called "incense," and "the lifting up of the hands" is called a "meal-offering;" and this because "prayers" and "incense" have a similar signification, also "lifting up of the hands" and "meal-offering."

"Incense" signifies spiritual good, which is the good of charity towards the neighbor; and "meal-offering" signifies celestial good, which is the good of love to the Lord, both signifying worship. And as prayers are not from the mouth, but from the heart by the mouth, and all worship that is from the heart is from the good of love and charity, for the heart signifies that, so it is also said, "Guard the door of my lips; let not my heart decline to evil, to do evil deeds in wickedness." And because David is lamenting that evils still have power against him, he says, "for still my prayers are in their evils."

That "prayers" have a similar meaning as "incense" is evident also from other passages in Revelation:
Another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he might offer it with the prayers of all the saints, upon the golden altar. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God (Rev. 8:3-4).

Harry

[GaKat]

Harry ~ Thank you for your kind consideration to offer your understanding of the words you listed in post # 34. I agree that sometimes a word can signify a particular meaning as you referenced in your post. I offer my opinion that many of the words you referenced might also be used in the Bible according to their Dictionary definition. In fairness to better understand, I think it is best to consider the particular word that you referenced in each scripture, then decide the reasonable context in which it is used.

Please consider according to Webster's New World Dictionary the word "bow" does also mean: 1. to bend or stoop 2. to bend the head or body in respect, agreement, worship, recognition, etc. 3. to yeild or submit, as to authority

The stripture reference below is one that I understand uses the word "bow" according to the Dictionary definition that I provided above.

Ps 37:15 - Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

The following is how I understand the scripture: Their sword (possibly Jesus) shall enter into their own heart (they will love him), and their bows (worship) shall be broken.

My understanding of the words "sword and "bow" in the scripture is possibly different to what many other's might understand. This is an example of why I read the scripture and then fairly decide what a particular word might mean or signify.

Kat

[GaKat]

Aimiel ~ Thank you for your consideration to offer your understanding of Jesus and who he might be. I am not here to teach, I came to offer an opportunity to other's to consider for their own understanding another reasonable possibility that Jesus might fulfill the "sword prophecies." It is my understanding that Jesus himself implies that he came to send a sword, but not peace and that he fulfills the OT scripture, Zec 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

There are many similarities/consistencies among the OT and NT scriptures that I understand will support a reasonable possibility that Jesus fulfills the "sword." It requires much reading and investigating the scriptures to better understand the possibility. For this reason, many reject the opportunity. Many do not want to make the effort to read and investigate the possibility.

Ho 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
I understand that God knows well what I do and/or say to other's. And I know that on Judgement Day I will be judged fairly and justifiably according to my good and bad deeds. As a fair and just God, I think He might know that I offer the information as a possibility and not as a sure truth. And that I also ask other's to achieve their own understanding of the information.


You asked, "If He were The Deceiver, how could He have gone about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil?"

I offer you the following scriptures to consider the possibility of how Jesus could do those things.

Rev 13:9-16 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

You asked, "A house divided against itself cannot stand. Can Satan cast out Satan?"

Jesus spoke with reason when he stated this. Satan is the father of lies and deceit, therefore it is reasonable to consider that a house built on Satan's lies and divided in their understanding and/or acceptance of certain lies cannot stand because eventually all of Satan's lies can be destroyed by God's truth's. Can lies cast out lies? No, but truth can cast out lies.

Kat

[GaKat]

Skeptic ~ Thank you for your consideration to post your question, "Is that a verifiable truth? Or do you believe this just because the Bible says so?"

My understanding of God is not limited to the Bible. I use the book, "World Scripture" to better understand the many similarities/consistencies that are among various world religions texts. The following link will provide the strong consistent possibility among religion texts that God is the God of truth.

World Scripture: Ch. 1 Ultimate Reality: http://www.unification.net/ws/intch1.htm

Kat

[OKHARRY]

This is from Swedenborg. While he was in the spiritual world the angels read his mind and saw that he was thinking same the way you think about the Holy Trinity:

The angels perceived in my thought those ideas of God that prevail in the Christian Church respecting a trinity of persons in unity and a unity of persons in a trinity.

Also respecting a birth of the Son of God from eternity,and they said, "What is in your thoughts? Are you not thinking from natural light, which is not in accord with our spiritual light? Unless, therefore, you dismiss these ideas from your thoughts or else we will shut up heaven against you and depart."

But I said, "Enter, I pray you, more deeply into my thought, and you will see, perhaps, that there is an agreement between us." This they did; and they saw that by three persons I understood three Divine attributes going forth, Creation, Redemption, and Regeneration, and that these are attributes of one God.

From myself: I had post this before that one God is the Creator, Redeemer and Regenerator. It is the same attributes of one God.

Also, that by the birth of the Son of God from eternity I understood His birth foreseen from eternity and provided in time; (also that to think of the Son born of God from eternity would, to me, be not above nature and reason but contrary to nature and reason.

While to think of the Son born of God in time through the virgin Mary as the only Son of God, and the only-begotten, is very different; and to believe otherwise than this would be a monstrous error.

I then told them that the source of my natural thought about a trinity and unity of persons, and the birth of a Son of God from eternity, was the doctrine of faith in the church which has its name from Athanasius.

Then the angels said, "Very well," and asked me to say from them that only those who approach the very God of heaven and earth can enter heaven, because heaven is heaven from that only God, and that this God is Jesus Christ, who is the Lord Jehovah, from eternity the Creator, in time the Redeemer, and to eternity the Regenerator, thus who is at once Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and this, they said, is the gospel to be preached.

After this the heavenly light which had been seen before over the opening returned, and gradually descended and filled the interiors of my mind, and enlightened my ideas on the trinity and unity of God; and the ideas which I had first formed on these subjects, and which had been merely natural, I then saw separated as chaff is separated from wheat by winnowing, and carried away as by a wind to the north of heaven, and scattered.

Harry

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by GaKat You (Aimiel) asked, "If He were The Deceiver, how could He have gone about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil?"

I offer you the following scriptures to consider the possibility of how Jesus could do those things.

Rev 13:9-16 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.OK, so what do you believe these scriptures have to do with my question? I see no correllation.Earlier, GaKat posted this originally in what is currently numbered Post 33, on this thread:

His (Jesus') purpose was/is to flatter and deceive many so they willingly continue worshipping a false god/s to the end of days.I replied, "A house divided against itself cannot stand. Can Satan cast out Satan?"Jesus spoke with reason when he stated this. Satan is the father of lies and deceit, therefore it is reasonable to consider that a house built on Satan's lies and divided in their understanding and/or acceptance of certain lies cannot stand because eventually all of Satan's lies can be destroyed by God's truth's. Can lies cast out lies? No, but truth can cast out lies. OK, so how can Christ be The Deciever, (according to you) and cast out the deceiver? Please notice some severe flaws in your thinking as you try to come up with an 'answer.' The Lord is not a deceiver, but He is Truth, Jesus is called The Word of God, and God's Word is Truth. He is not about telling lies. :doh:

[OKHARRY]

Rev.13
Verse 1. "And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea" signifies the laity in the churches of the Reformed, who are principled in the doctrine and faith of the dragon concerning God and salvation: "Having seven heads" signifies insanity arising from mere falsities: "And ten horns" signifies much power: "And upon his horns ten diadems" signifies the power of falsifying many truths of the Word: "And upon his heads the name of blasphemy" signifies denial of the Lord's Divine Human, and doctrine of the church not drawn from the Word, but from self-derived intelligence.

Verse 2. "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard" signifies a heresy destructive of the church because derived from truths of the Word falsified: "And his feet like a bear's" signifies full of fallacies from the literal sense of the Word read but not understood: "And his mouth as the mouth of a lion" signifies reasonings from falsities as if from truths: "And the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority" signifies that this heresy prevails and reigns in consequence of its reception by the laity.

Verse 3. "And I saw one of his heads as if wounded to death" signifies that the doctrine of faith alone does not accord with the Word, in which works are so often enjoined: "And the stroke of his death was healed" signifies the remedy applied on this account: "And the whole earth wondered after the beast" signifies that then this doctrine and faith was gladly received.

Verse 4. "And they adored the dragon which gave authority to the beast" signifies the acknowledgment that it is such as is laid down by the leaders and teachers, who have established its authority on the reception they have procured for it among the community at large: "And they adored the beast" signifies the acknowledgment on the part of the community that it is holy truth: "Saying, who is like unto the beast? Who is able to fight with him?" signifies the excellence of that doctrine, because it cannot be contradicted by anyone.

Verse 5. "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies" signifies that it teaches what is evil and false: "And there was given unto him authority to work forty-two months" signifies the liberty of teaching and doing the evils and falsities of that doctrine, even to the end of that church and the beginning of the new.

Verse 6. "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name" signifies their sayings, which are scandals against the essential Divinity and Divine Human of the Lord, and at the same time against everything relating to the church derived from the Word, whereby the Lord is worshiped: "And his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven" signifies scandals against the Lord's celestial kingdom and against heaven.

Verse 7. "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them," signifies that they have impugned the Divine truths of the Word, and cast them down to the ground: "And there was given him authority over every tribe and tongue and nation" signifies consequent dominion over all things of the church, both as to its doctrine and as to its life.

Verse 8. "And all that dwell on the earth shall adore him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb" signifies that all acknowledged that heretical doctrine as holy in the church, except those who believed in the Lord: "Slain from the foundation of the world" signifies the Lord's Divine Human not acknowledged from the first establishment of the church.

Verse 9. "If anyone hath an ear let him hear" signifies that they should attend to this who desire to attain wisdom.

Verse 10. "If anyone shall lead into captivity he shall go into captivity" signifies that he who by means of this heretical doctrine misleads others from believing well and living well, will himself be drawn into hell by his own evils and falsities: "If anyone shall kill with the sword he must be killed with the sword" signifies that he who by means
of falsities destroys the soul of another, is himself destroyed by falsities, and perishes: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" signifies that the man of the Lord's New Church, by temptations from such things, is explored as to the quality of his life and faith.

Verse 11. "And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth" signifies the clergy who are principled in the doctrine and faith of the dragon concerning God and salvation: "And he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon" signifies that what they say, teach, and write is from the Word, as though it were the Lord's Divine truth, and yet it is truth falsified.

Verse 12. "And he exerciseth all the authority of the first beast before him" signifies that they confirmed these tenets, which thence derive their authority: "And he causeth the earth and them that dwell therein to adore the first beast whose stroke of his death was healed" signifies that from their being received by the community at large, it is established and confirmed that they ought to be acknowledged and held sacred in the church.

Verse 13. "And he doeth great signs" signifies testifications that the things they teach are true, although they are false: "So that he also maketh fire to come down from heaven unto the earth before men" signifies attestations that their falsities are truths.

Verse 14. "And he seduceth them that dwell upon the earth, on account of the signs, which were given him to do before the beast" signifies that by their testifications and attestations they lead the men of the church into errors: "Saying to them that dwell upon the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which hath the stroke of a sword and did live" signifies that they induce the men of the church to receive for doctrine, that faith is the only medium of salvation, for the reasons already mentioned.

Verse 15. "And it was given unto him to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast may both speak" signifies that it was permitted them to confirm that doctrine by means of the Word, whereby it does as it were receive life when it is taught: "And cause that as many as do not adore the image of the beast should be killed" signifies that they denounce damnation against those who do not acknowledge their doctrine of faith to be the holy doctrine of the church.

Verse 16. "And he causeth all, both the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond" signifies all in that church, whatsoever may be their condition, learning, and intelligence: "That he should give them a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads" signifies that no one is acknowledged to be a Reformed Christian unless he receives that doctrine in faith and love.

Verse 17. "And that no one could buy or sell, if he hath not the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" signifies that it is not lawful for anyone to teach from the Word, unless he acknowledges it, and swears to the belief and love thereof, or to something which amounts to the same.

Verse 18. "Here is wisdom" signifies that it is the part of a wise man, from what had been said and explained in this chapter, to see and understand the nature of the doctrine and faith of the clergy respecting God and salvation: "He that hath intelligence let him count the number of the beast" signifies that he who is in illumination from the Lord, may know the nature and quality of the proofs they produce from the Word in confirmation of that doctrine and faith: "For it is the number of a man" signifies the quality of the Word and thence of the church: "And his number is six hundred sixty-six" signifies this quality, that all the truth of the Word is falsified by them.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

Apocalypse Revealed by Swedenborg.

Rev.12:3
And another sign in heaven was seen signifies a revelation by the Lord concerning those who are against the New Church and its doctrine. And behold a great red dragon signifies those in the Church of the Reformed who make God three and the Lord two, and who separate charity from faith, and make faith saving and not charity at the same time. Having seven heads signifies insanity resulting from the truths of the Word falsified and profaned. And ten horns signifies much power. And upon his heads seven diadems signifies all the truths of the Word falsified and profaned.

Revelation concerns the Lord and His church, not about nations and people.

Harry

[okinrus]

Mathew 28:17 "When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted" So either Jesus is God and his disciples did not break the 1st commandment or Jesus is not God and his disciples should be stoned.

[GaKat]

Aimiel ~ Thank you for your consideration to reply. You asked, "OK, so how can Christ be The Deciever, (according to you) and cast out the deceiver?" Your opinion was, "Please notice some severe flaws in your thinking as you try to come up with an 'answer.' The Lord is not a deceiver, but He is Truth, Jesus is called The Word of God, and God's Word is Truth. He is not about telling lies."

If Jesus is the Deceiver (and yes, I think he is) how can he cast out the Deceiver? The answer is simple, the Deceiver cannot cast himself out as long as he continues to deceive other's, however I do think it's possible the Deceiver might be able to cast himself out by choosing to change his deceitful ways to always be truthful. The most reasonable way to cast out deceit is by verifiable truth.

Anyone who goes about deceiving other's has the ability to change their ways. All it requires is willingness to change and a continued effort to be good and truthful. Changing for the better will help people on Judgement Day, however, we will be judged fairly according to all our good and bad deeds and our fate depends on whether or not our good deeds outweigh the bad and God's mercy.

God's word is truth. Truth is supported by provable evidence/s. Where are the evidences that will support and prove to all people that Jesus is the rightful Messiah and/or that he is God? Which Gospel tells the truth about Jesus' supposed divine birth, Matthew or Luke? They are inconsistent with each other, so which is true and can either story be verifiably proven? I ask the same about the resurrection, four Gospel's report inconsistent events, which one is the truth and can any of the stories be proven? The four Gospels report similar/consistent events about the crucifiction, which supports the event as being possibly true, so why are the birth and resurrection stories inconsistent?

Kat

[OKHARRY]

From Swedenborg's "Divine Providence 224"

Who cannot see that the external derives its existence from the internal and consequently has its essence from the internal.

Everyone knows from experience that the external can appear otherwise than in accordance with the essence it has from the internal.

There is manifestly such an appearance with hypocrites, flatterers and dissemblers; and that a man can outwardly personate characters not his own is manifest from actors and mimics.

They know how to represent kings, emperors and even angels, in tone of voice, speech, face and gesture, as though they were really such, when yet they are but players.

Moreover, this has been stated because man can in similar manner act the @deceiver both in civil and moral affairs and in spiritual matters; and it is well known that many do so.

When the internal in its essence is infernal, and the external in its form appears spiritual, and yet, as has been said, the external derives its essence from the internal, it may be asked where in the external that essence lies concealed.

It does not appear in the gesture, in the tone of voice, in the speech, or in the face, and yet it is interiorly hidden in all four of these.

That it is interiorly hidden in these is clearly manifest from these same things in the spiritual world.

For when a man comes from the natural world into the spiritual world, as he does at death, he leaves behind his externals with the body, and retains his internals which he had stored up in his spirit.

Then if his internal was infernal he appears as a devil, even such as he was as to his spirit while he lived in the world. Who does not acknowledge that every man leaves behind external things with the body, and enters into internal things when he becomes a spirit?

To this I will add that in the spiritual world there is a communication of affections and of thoughts derived from these. Consequently no one can speak otherwise than as he thinks.

Everyone there changes his countenance and resembles his own affection so that his character is apparent from his countenance.

Hypocrites are sometimes permitted to speak otherwise than as they think, but the tone of their voice is quite out of harmony with their interior thoughts, and by this discordance they are recognised.

Hence it may be evident that the internal lies concealed interiorly in the tone of the voice, the speech, the face and the gesture of the external; but it is not perceived by men in the natural world although it is clearly perceived by angels in the spiritual world.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

From Swedenborg's Apocalypse Revealed.

1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He signified, sending by His angel to His servant John.

From myself: Christians reading the words above think that God is two person, because it saids," The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him."

In order for Jehovah God's Revelation to work He had to put on a Human Form. When Jesus spoke that was Jehovah God's exterrnal speaking. Jehovah God's external was the Son of God.

From Swedenborg:
Rev.1
Verse 1. The revelation of Jesus Christ, signifies predictions from the Lord concerning Himself and His church, what the latter will be in its end, and what it will be afterwards, as well in the heavens as upon earth.

By "the revelation of Jesus Christ" are signified all predictions, which because they are from the Lord, are called the Revelation of Jesus Christ; that they relate to the Lord and His church, will appear from the explanations.

In Revelation it does not treat of the successive states of the church, still less of the successive states of kingdoms, as some have hitherto believed, but there from beginning to end it treats of the last state of the church in the heavens and on the earth.

It concerns the Last Judgment; and after this of the New Church, which is the New Jerusalem.

That this New Church is the end of this work, is evident, wherefore those things which precede refer to the state of the church, as to its quality just before it. But in what series these are treated of, may be seen from the contents of each chapter; and more distinctly from the explanation of each particular verse.

Harry

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by GaKat If Jesus is the Deceiver (and yes, I think he is) how can he cast out the Deceiver? The answer is simple, the Deceiver cannot cast himself out as long as he continues to deceive other's, however I do think it's possible the Deceiver might be able to cast himself out by choosing to change his deceitful ways to always be truthful. The most reasonable way to cast out deceit is by verifiable truth. That makes perfect sense. To you, maybe. Not to anyone else. Jesus is The Creator, and does not tell lies. Get a clue.Anyone who goes about deceiving other's has the ability to change their ways.God's character never changes, in fact, in Him there is not even a 'shadow of turning.'All it requires is willingness to change and a continued effort to be good and truthful.What does good and truthful have to do with someone who is a deceiver?Changing for the better will help people on Judgement Day, however, we will be judged fairly according to all our good and bad deeds and our fate depends on whether or not our good deeds outweigh the bad and God's mercy.That is another place where you are wrong. No one EVER got into Heaven on their merits, except Jesus. Our righteousness is altogether filthy rags. Only The Blood of The Lamb can bring someone into Heaven.God's word is truth.That is Who Jesus is, God's Word. The Sword of The Lord. The Sword of The Spirit of Truth.Truth is supported by provable evidence/s.Truth is it's own evidence.Where are the evidences that will support and prove to all people that Jesus is the rightful Messiah and/or that he is God?The Holy Spirit's witness.Which Gospel tells the truth about Jesus' supposed divine birth, Matthew or Luke?Both.They are inconsistent with each other, so which is true and can either story be verifiably proven?The Word of God proves Itself. There is more corroberating evidence in The Holy Bible that Jesus was born, crucified and rose from the dead than any other historical fact of antiquity. The witness of The Holy Ghost also gives us a more sure record than any eyewitness account.I ask the same about the resurrection, four Gospel's report inconsistent events, which one is the truth and can any of the stories be proven?Where?The four Gospels report similar/consistent events about the crucifiction, which supports the event as being possibly true, so why are the birth and resurrection stories inconsistent?Again, where? There are no 'inconsistencies.'

[GaKat]

Aimiel ~ Thank you for your consideration to respond to my reply. From reading your replies I understand and accept that you choose to have strong faith that your belief in Jesus is true. From my post and replies, you might understand that I do not share the same faith in the beliefs that Jesus is God or the beliefs that he is the Messiah.

You have sugested that I should get a clue. I would like to think that I have gotten many clues by reading and investigating the Bible, various religion texts, and other related resources. It is my understanding, although many other's might agree that there are no known evidences that will support the NT scriptures about Jesus to be the verifiable truth. It is reasonable to suggest (and many Clergy and Religion Scholars do suggest) that Jesus is worshipped by many because they have faith and believe the NT scriptures about him are true.

You stated, "God's character never changes, in fact, in Him there is not even a 'shadow of turning.'"

I have not suggested that God's character has changed or turned. It is your belief that Jesus is God but I do not share your belief. I worship the Almighty God as one supreme God.

You asked, "What does good and truthful have to do with someone who is a deceiver?"

I have hope that anyone who goes about deceiving other's with lies can change their ways and be good and truthful to other's.

You stated, "That is another place where you are wrong. No one EVER got into Heaven on their merits, except Jesus. Our righteousness is altogether filthy rags. Only The Blood of The Lamb can bring someone into Heaven."

The Almighty God is our judge and I accept that His judgements will be fair and just. It is my understanding that the true rightful Messiah will come to enlighten us with all truth's and then we will learn righteousness. It is the Almighty God who will decide who makes it into Heaven. Although I will offer that being loyal to worship the Almighty God and keeping His commandments can help people.

You stated, "That is Who Jesus is, God's Word. The Sword of The Lord. The Sword of The Spirit of Truth."

It is a strong reasonable possibility that Jesus might fulfill the "sword" prophecies. The OT scriptures say that God would send a "sword" among us to consume us. Your understanding of the sword and my understanding of the sword are different.

You stated, "Truth is it's own evidence."

According to the Dictionary definition "truth" is supported by evidence/s. Truth conforms to fact.

The Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is described as the Spirit of truth. Is it logical that the Spirit of truth would verify the truth because He could?

If the Gospels accounts of Jesus' supposed divine birth and his resurrection are true, where are the evidence/s that support it as truth? Truth is simple to understand when there are evidences to support a truth.

You stated, "The Word of God proves Itself. There is more corroberating evidence in The Holy Bible that Jesus was born, crucified and rose from the dead than any other historical fact of antiquity. The witness of The Holy Ghost also gives us a more sure record than any eyewitness account."

The scriptures cannot support a truth by themselves. Show me evidences that support the scriptures to be truth. I can have faith in verifiable truth but I do not have faith in unverifiable beliefs.

Read the four Gospels stories about the resurrection. Where each stories begins with Mary Magdalene going to the tomb is where all four stories differ. The inconsistencies are very noticeable. Read the two Gospel's stories of Jesus' birth, there are noticeable inconsistencies in the events that are recorded to have happened.

There are inconsistencies in the birth and resurrection events. Many people recognize them and discount the reports as unreliable. But many explain them away and accept them to be true.

Kat

[OKHARRY]

From Swedenborg's "Heaven and Hell" 30

Concerning Divine Order:
30. The interiors of a man which belong to his internal mind (mens) and his external mind (animus) are also in like order. He has an inmost, a middle and an outermost part.

For when man was created, all things of Divine order were brought together in him, so that he became Divine order in form, and consequently, a heaven in the least form. For this reason man, as regards his interiors, has communication with the heavens.

Also he comes, after death, among angels, among those of the inmost, middle or outermost heaven in accordance with the reception of Divine good and truth from the Lord while he lived in the world.

All things of Divine order are brought together in man, and by creation man is Divine order in form.

In man the internal man was formed after the image of heaven, and the external after the image of the world, and this is why man was called by the ancients a microcosm.

Thus man in respect of his interiors is by creation a heaven in least form after the image of the greatest; and such also man becomes when he has been created anew or regenerated by the Lord.

From Divine Providence 331

THE LORD CANNOT ACT CONTRARY TO THE LAWS OF THE DIVINE PROVIDENCE, BECAUSE TO ACT CONTRARY TO THEM WOULD BE TO ACT CONTRARY TO HIS DIVINE LOVE AND HIS DIVINE WISDOM, THUS CONTRARY TO HIMSELF
It has been shown in THE ANGELIC WISDOM CONCERNING THE DIVINE LOVE AND WISDOM that the Lord is Divine Love and Divine Wisdom, and that these two are Being (Esse) itself and Life itself, from which everything is and lives.

It is shown also that there is a like proceeding from Him, and that the Divine proceeding is Himself.

Among the things which proceed the Divine Providence is primary, for this is continually in the end for which the universe was created.

The operation and the progression of the end through means is what is called the Divine Providence.

Now since the Divine proceeding is Himself and the Divine Providence is the primary thing that proceeds, it follows that to act contrary to the laws of His Divine Providence is to act contrary to Himself.

It may also be said that the Lord is Providence, as it is said that God is Order, for the Divine Providence is the Divine Order primarily with regard to the salvation of men; and as there is no order without laws, for laws constitute order and every law derives from order that it also is order, it follows that as God is Order He is also the law of His own Order.

Similarly, it may be said of the Divine Providence that as the Lord is His own Providence He is also the law of His own Providence. Hence it is clear that the Lord cannot act contrary to the laws of His Divine Providence, because to act contrary to them would be to act contrary to Himself.

From myself: The work of Divine Providence is from an unchangeing God, from the Lord Himself, who is the Holy Spirit Himself. All things are done by the Lord in man is according to Divine Order, which is the Lord's Divine Divine Providence.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

I have not suggested that God's character has changed or turned. It is your belief that Jesus is God but I do not share your belief. I worship the Almighty God as one supreme God.


Kat,
From Swedenborg's Doctrine of the Lord 45:

GOD IS ONE, AND THE LORD IS THAT GOD.
It is evident that the Lord is called Jehovah, the God of Israel and of Jacob, the Holy One of Israel, Lord, and God, and also King, the Anointed, and David, from which it may be seen, as yet however as through a glass, darkly, that the Lord is God Himself, from and about whom is the Word.

Now it is known in the whole world that God is one, and no man possessed of sound reason denies it. It remains therefore to confirm this from the Word and, in addition, that the Lord is that God.

1. That God is one, is confirmed by these passages of the Word:
Jesus said, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord; therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul (Mark 12:29, 30).

Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah; and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul (Deut. 6:4, 5).

One came unto Jesus and said, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but the one God (Matt. 19:16, 17).

That all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone art Jehovah (Isa. 37: 20).
I am Jehovah and there is none else there is no God besides Me that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is no God besides Me: I am Jehovah and there is none else (Isa. 45:5, 6).

O Jehovah of Armies, God of Israel, that dwellest on the cherubim, Thou art the God, even Thou alone, over all the kingdoms of the earth (Isa. 37:16).

Is there a God besides Me? and a Rock? I know not any (Isa. 44:8).
Who is God save Jehovah? and who is a Rock save our God? (Ps. 18:31).

2. That the Lord is that God, is confirmed by these passages of the Word:
Surely God is in thee, and there is none else, there is no God. Verily Thou art a God that hidest Thyself, O God of Israel, the Savior (Isa. 45:14, 15).

Have not I Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me, a just God and a Savior, there is none besides Me. Look unto Me that ye may be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else (Isa. 45:21, 22).

I am Jehovah, and besides Me there is no Savior (Isa. 43:11).
I am Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt acknowledge no God but Me; for there is no Savior besides Me (Hos. 13:4).

Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel, and his Redeemer Jehovah of Armies, I am the First and I am the Last, and besides Me there is no God (Isa. 44:6).

Jehovah of Armies is His name, and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel the God of the whole earth shall He be called (Isa. 54:5).

In that day Jehovah shall be king over all the earth; in that day there shall be one Jehovah, and His name one (Zech. 14:9).

As the Lord alone is the Savior and the Redeemer, and as it is said that Jehovah is that Savior and Redeemer, and that there is none besides Him, it follows that the one God is no other than the Lord.

From myself:
The same God who made these Divine sayings above, came down from eternity and was made man in order do the works of redemption. For one God is the Creator, Redeemer and Regenerator. Salvation is impossible without this one God becoming a Man.

God is one, in Person and in Essence. A visible God is more understanding than an unvisible one, therefore God Almighty became Man. From Jesus, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." John 14:8

Harry

[GaKat]

Harry ~ Thank you for your consideration to offer Swedenborg's Doctrine of the Lord 45, for my consideration to read. I am open-minded to consider what I might learn from the information that other's offer to support their understanding of God, the Bible, Jesus, etc... And I appreciate your effort to provide references for me and other's to read and consider.

I agree the Almighty God is "one" supreme God. For many reasons however, I do not agree that Jesus is God born in the flesh. I called myself a Methodist Christian for much of my life, but even then I did not believe that Jesus is God. I did once believe that Jesus was the son of God and the Messiah. It's been almost four years since I set aside my then current beliefs to seek a better understanding of God and His truth's and/or possible truth's for my own understanding. I have read and considered many sources of information about God and I still do not believe that Jesus is God.

The KJV Bible is the source of information that I have read and investigated the most, however, I do not limit my understanding of God to one source. A source that I find very interesting is the book, "World Scripture," because it is a comparative analogy of many of the world's sacred texts. A group of 44 scholars of various world religions contributed to the book. If you are interested to read what the scholars offer as consistencies among many of our world religions sacred texts, it can be read online at: http://www.unification.net/ws/

In my opinion, I think you provide many good scripture references that support God to be "one" God. "One" God is also a consistency that exists among many of our world religion's sacred texts. It is considered that many people worship the same "one" God even though the various religions texts refer to Him by different names.

May God bless and guide you.

Kat

[OKHARRY]

Kat,

From Swedenborg's True Christian Religion 82:

82. (1) Jehovah God descended and assumed a Human that He might redeem men and save them. In the Christian churches at this day it is believed that God the Creator of the universe begat a Son from eternity, and that this Son descended and assumed a Human in order to redeem and save men.

But this is an error, and of itself falls to the ground as soon as it is considered that God is one, and that it is worse than incredible in the sight of reason to say that the one God begat a Son from eternity, and that God the Father, together with the Son and Holy Spirit, each one of whom singly is God, is one God.

This incredible notion is wholly dissipated, like a falling star in midair, when it is shown from the Word t