The Truth About God

[OKHARRY]

To All,
The idea that a Son of God from eternity was sent down and took upon Himself human form collapses as totally erroneous and is exploded on considering the passages from the Word in which Jehovah Himself says that He is the Saviour and Redeemer, as the following:

Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God beside Me? There is no righteous God and Saviour beside Me. Isa. 45:21, 22.

I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Isaiah. 43:11.

I am Jehovah your God, and you are not to acknowledge any God beside Me, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Hosea 13:4.

That all flesh may know that I am Jehovah your Saviour and your Redeemer. Isa. 49:26; 60:16.

As for our Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Isa. 47:4.

Their Redeemer, the mighty Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Jer. 50:34.

Jehovah, my rock and my Redeemer. Ps. 19:14.

Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God. Isa. 48:17; 43:14; 49:7.

Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer; I am Jehovah who makes all things, and I alone by Myself. Isa. 44:24.

Thus spoke Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth; I am the First and the Last, and there is no God beside me. Isa. 44:6.

You are Jehovah our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name. Isa. 63:16.

I will take pity with eternal mercy, thus spoke your Redeemer Jehovah. Isa. 54:8. You had redeemed me, Jehovah of truth. Ps. 31:5.

Let Israel hope in Jehovah, for there is mercy with Jehovah, with Him is very much redemption. He shall redeem Israel from all his sins. Ps. 130:7, 8.

Jehovah Zebaoth* is His name, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He shall be called the God of all the earth. Isa. 54:5.

From these and very many more passages anyone who has eyes, and a mind opened by using his eyes, can see that Jehovah God, who is one, came down and was made man in order to effect redemption. Jesus Christ is Jehovah God in the Human, as in John 14:8 "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." The Lord was talking about Himself, not some other person.

Can anyone fail to see this as clear as in morning light, so long as he pays attention to those very sayings of God which have been quoted?

Those, however, who are plunged in the shades of night as the result of convincing themselves that a trinity of three persons was before creation, and the second person (son of god) was sent from eternity, and that it was He who came down and redeemed us, close their eyes to those Divine sayings above, and ponder with their eyes shut how to pervert them and make them square with their false ideas.

Harry

[frostmanj]

What part of the Trinity do you disagree with?

Is it the part that says that Jesus is God in the flesh? (we seem to agree).

Phil. 2:6-11: who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Is it the part that the Father Created all things? (I think we agree)

1 Cor. 8:6: yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Is it the part that says that the Spirit is also God? (I think we agree)

1John 4:2: By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God.

Or is it the part that says that the Son, the Father, and the Spirit are in fact one? (I think we again agree)

Trinitarians (contrary to popular opinion by some) do not believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate entities. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate personalities of the Same entity, that of God.

FrostmanJ

[Skeptic]

The truth is, God is just a myth. And there is no rational reason to believe the Bible is anything but a collection of fairy tales, with some historical accuracy regarding people and places.

[frostmanj]

Skeptic,

I won't try to convince you using a bible passage. (frankly, I find anyone who comes trying to prove one concept with another I don't believe in to be a little dense). Is there nothing in your life that you believe in without proof?

FrostmanJ

[Sealeaf]

There exists a close relation between Jesus and the being we believe created the universe(the Creator, God the Father) and between Jesus and the being we believe sustains and improves the universe( the Holy Spirit). How then are we to discribe this relationship? Jesus calls God "Father". We can assume that this is an analogy, not an exact statement of relationship. But we don't really know. We are free to speculate but is risky to let our speculations carry us too far or to confuse what we think with the little we are actually told.

We do know that when the Jews were scandalized because they took what Jesus said, to mean that He claimed to be on approximately the same level with God, He did not correct them. Instead He let them be outraged. All He had to say was, "no.no I did't mean it like that" but He did not say it. He let their interpatation stand.

[frostmanj]

Sealeaf,

I think it is obvious where I stand on this.

How would you characterize the relationship between God, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ? I'm not being argumentative. I am just curious. I guess I'm just trying to find out where your views lie so I don't jump to conclusions.

Respectfully
FrostmanJ

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by frostmanj
Is there nothing in your life that you believe in without proof? I believe in a lot of things for which I do not have proof. But I don't believe in things for which there is simply no evidence whatsoever! I believe in the probability of things for which there is sufficient empirical evidence (not proof). For example, based on what I know about what has been discovered in the fields of biology and astronomy, I believe it is probable (not certain) that life exists elsewhere in the universe.

As for souls, God, gods, or anything supernatural, I have seen no empirical evidence for these, and have no rational reason to believe that such things are possible, let alone probable.

[Shaun]

As for souls, God, gods, or anything supernatural, I have seen no empirical evidence for these, and have no rational reason to believe that such things are possible, let alone probable.
Do you believe in quantum mechanics? There's no empirical evidence for that. What about conscience? Metaphysics? The Big Bang?

Or are you just mixing up philosophy and science again, as so many scientific dabblers do?

Shaun
dabble dots, free near you!
tastes like real science,
without the extra reading!

[RogerB]

As for souls, God, gods, or anything supernatural, I have seen no empirical evidence for these, and have no rational reason to believe that such things are possible, let alone probable....and I'll ignore all the first hand accounts of how God is working in your lives if I want to!

[OMEGA]

If you want Absolute Proof that God exists

then just DROP DEAD and you will have your PROOF .


Either you will be Resurrected in 1000 years or Not .

------------------------

To OK HARRY ,

Jesus our Lord was the LORD GOD of the Old Testament

and therefore, fulfulled the Prophesies of the New Testament.


:thumb:

[OKHARRY]

From Swedenborg's writings:
The doctrine of three Divine persons, both in past ages and at the present day, has sprung solely from a failure to understand the Divine Esse.

That the unity of God is inmostly inscribed on the mind of every man, since it lies at the center of all that flows from God into the soul of man, and yet it has not descended into the human understanding, for the reason that the knowledges by which man must ascend to meet God have been lacking.

For everyone must prepare the way for God, that is, must prepare himself for reception, and this is done by means of knowledges.

The knowledges that have been lacking, and that enable the understanding to penetrate far enough to see that God is one, and that not more than one Divine Esse is possible.

Harry

[OMEGA]

Then how do you account for Jesus saying that

Abraham was Glad to see him ???



(John 8:56 KJV) "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

(John 8:57 KJV) "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?"

(John 8:58 KJV) "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

:bannana:

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by RogerB
(putting words in my mouth)....and I'll ignore all the first hand accounts of how God is working in your lives if I want to! There are other more rational reasons to explain why some Christians lives are "working." Some people's lives might be improved, in part, because of their belief in God. Strong beliefs about anything can influence people's lives. However, there is no empirical evidence that any of this improvement is due to their relationship with a mythical God.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Shaun
Do you believe in quantum mechanics? There's no empirical evidence for that. There is vast empirical evidence that shows that quantum mechanics explains the subatomic world very well!

See: http://web.mit.edu/redingtn/www/netadv/X0Q.html

What about conscience? A psychological behavior derived from the interaction between one's brain, learning history, and social influences.

Metaphysics? It depends on what you mean by "metaphysics."

See: http://websyte.com/alan/metamul.htm

Much of the popular stuff is simply bull.

The Big Bang? Plenty of evidence:
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm

See also:
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/errors.html

Or are you just mixing up philosophy and science again, as so many scientific dabblers do? No.

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by OMEGA
Then how do you account for Jesus saying that

Abraham was Glad to see him ???



(John 8:56 KJV) "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

(John 8:57 KJV) "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?"

(John 8:58 KJV) "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

:bannana:

The Lord wasn't talking about Himself as the second person of the Divine trinity before creation. He was talking about Himself as Jehovah God, for it was He who spoke with Abraham. The Son of God wasn't until Jehovah God became Man, born of the virgin Mary.

Before the world was created this Trinity was not, but after creation, when God became incarnated, it was provided and brought about, and then in the Lord God the Redeemer and Savior Jesus Christ.

In the Christian church at the present day a Divine trinity existing before the creation of the world is acknowledged.

That Jehovah God begat a Son from eternity, and that the Holy Spirit then went forth from both, and that each of these three is by Himself or singly God, because each is one person subsisting of Himself.

But as this is incomprehensible to all reason it is called a mystery, which can be penetrated only in this way-that these three have one Divine essence, by which is meant eternity, immensity, omnipotence, and thus an equal Divinity, glory, and majesty.

But that this trinity is a trinity of three Gods, and therefore in no sense a Divine trinity.It's like reason haven no part , but has been lulled to sleep, and still it compels the mouth to speak like a parrot. And when reason is put to sleep what is speech from the mouth but dead speech? When the mouth utters that which reason turns away from and dissents from, is not speech foolish?


Like the foolish ideas about God coming from the mouths of learneth men of the church. Their reasoning has been put to sleep and still they open their mouths and speak like a parrot.
Harry

[Sozo]

Hey Harry... who is speaking in these verses?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

"Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One"

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

"Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He."

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Sozo
Hey Harry... who is speaking in these verses?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

"Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One"

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

"Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He."

Hey Harry, why are you ignoring my question?

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by Sozo
Hey Harry... who is speaking in these verses?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

"Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One"

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

"Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He."


From myself:

God saided in Isaiah, I am the First and the Last.
Jehovah God saided these word in Isaiah, but Jesus Christ also saided the samething in Revelation. Therefore Jesus Christ is Jehovah God Almighty in the Human, as the Lord saided in John 14:8, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." I have posted this passage many time and yet people here still don't believe He is the Father.AMEN

Harry

[OMEGA]

JESUS is not " God the Father "

but the Lord Jehovah is his name from the Old Testament.

God the Father was only introduced in the New Testament .

Therefore, there are only 2 Gods , Jesus and the Father .
]

:cheers:

[frostmanj]

TWO Gods... (Plural).... more than one? Aren't you treading a mite close to blasphemy there OMEGA?

Why is it so hard to grasp the basic premise of the Trinity?

Jesus is God.
The Father is God.
The Spirit is God.
All three are one.

Even OKHARRY Said

Therefore Jesus Christ is Jehovah God Almighty in the Human

If you believe as I do that Jesus Christ was God Incarnate, what else could we be debating?

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by OMEGA
JESUS is not " God the Father "

but the Lord Jehovah is his name from the Old Testament.

God the Father was only introduced in the New Testament .

Therefore, there are only 2 Gods , Jesus and the Father .
]

:cheers:

I am Jehovah, and besides Me there is no Savior (Isa. 43:11).

Am not I Jehovah, and there is none besides Me, and there is no Savior besides Me. Look unto Me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth (Isa. 45:21, 22).

I am Jehovah thy God, and there is no Savior besides Me (Hos. 13:4).

Thou hast redeemed me, O Jehovah God of truth (Ps. 26:5).

Jesus and Jehovah are the same God. Jesus is Jehovah God seen by men.

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. With God, means, in God, for truth is in good and good is in truth.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

The New Church is the crown of all the churches that have existed on the earth, because it is to worship one visible God in whom is the invisible like the soul in the body.

Thus, and not otherwise, is a conjunction of God with man possible because man is natural, and therefore thinks naturally, and conjunction must exist in his thought, and thus in his love's affection, and this is the case when he thinks of God as a Man.

Conjunction with an invisible God is like a conjunction of the eye's vision with the expanse of the universe, the limits of which are invisible. Like searching for a star too far for the eye to see.

It is also like vision in mid-ocean, which reaches out into the air and upon the sea, and is lost.A conjunction with a visible God, on the other hand, is like beholding a man in the air or on the sea spreading forth his hands and inviting to his arms.

For all conjunction of God with man must be also a reciprocal conjunction of man with God. No such reciprocation is possible except with a visible God. That before the assumption of the Human, God was not visible.

The Lord Himself also teaches in John:
Ye have neither heard the voice of the Father at any time, nor seen His form (5:37).

And in Moses:
That no one can see God and live (Ex. 33:20).

But that He is visible through His Humanity is stated in
John:
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath manifested Him (1:18).

And in the same:
Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one cometh unto the Father but by Me.

He that knoweth Me, knoweth the Father, and he that seeth Me seeth the Father (14:6, 7, 9).

That there is a conjunction with the invisible God through the visible, that is, through the Lord.

He teaches in the following passages:
Jesus said, Abide in Me, and I in you; he that abideth in Me and I in him, the same beareth much fruit (John 15:4, 5).

In that day ye shall know that I am in the Father, and ye in Me and I in you (John 14:20).

The glory which thou hast given Me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one; I in them and Thou in Me: that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them (John 17:21-23, 26; also 6:56).

It is also taught that He and the Father are one,as the soul and body are one in man, and that in order to have eternal life man must believe in Him. That salvation depends on conjunction with God has been frequently shown above. Amen

Harry

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by frostmanj
TWO Gods... (Plural).... more than one? Aren't you treading a mite close to blasphemy there OMEGA?

Why is it so hard to grasp the basic premise of the Trinity?

Jesus is God.
The Father is God.
The Spirit is God.
All three are one.

Even OKHARRY Said

If you believe as I do that Jesus Christ was God Incarnate, what else could we be debating?

Why don't you add more to the list to prove God's Divine Essence.

Harry

[GaKat]

Skeptic ~ Actually the Bible does make sense if it is approached with a better understanding of "what is truth?" There is a definition of the word "truth" in many dictionaries which are published and distributed worldwide. If people would use the definition to better understand "what is verifiable truth? (evidences support a truth)," and "what is possible truth (lacks evidence but two or more similar/consistent reports support a possibility of truth)" then it would help them to better understand what is unverifiable and inconsistent in the Bible. Many people's beliefs conform to unverifiable and inconsistent.

Unfortunately, many people who go by unverifiable beliefs will not adhere to the universal definition of the word "truth" because their beliefs will not conform to verifiable truth and often not even to possible truth. They willingly accept unverifiable beliefs to be their truth and often minister/witness their unverifiable beliefs to others as truth. I don't think they realize they are considered a false witness according to judicial law for ministering an unverifiable belief to other's as truth. It is apparent that many people forget the Almighty God is the God of truth. Do they ever consider that God may judge us the same way we have learned to judge others according to "what is truth?"

I recently submitted a thread titled, "The OT Sword Prophecies and Jesus" that I think reasonably conforms to a possible truth. There are many consistent/similar OT and NT scriptures that establish the possibility that Jesus' pupose was to fulfill the role of the sword. And when you consider what has taken place since the time of Jesus until now, then it makes more sense and seems to support the possibility that Jesus' purpose as the sword was/is fulfilled. This also helps me to better understand there is a God and there are truth's and possible truth's in the Bible. And like it is said in Proverbs chapter 2, you must seek knowledge of God as if seeking for hidden treasures.

If people would seriously read and consider with an open mind the scriptures and comparison's along with the chapters associated with the references that I posted in the thread, "The OT Sword Prophecies and Jesus," then I think they might better understand the possibility that Jesus is the sword that God said He would send among us. Especially when they realize the "sword" is a significant part of the curse that was poured out on us because of our ancestors willingness to forsake the God of truth for false gods and false beliefs. And the curse poured out on us will cause us to continue in our ancestors ways unless we break the curse by seeking to better understand "what is truth" and stop accepting and/or relaying to other's unverifiable beliefs as the truth.

It is also my understanding that there will be a coming Messianic representative. According to similarities/consistencies among many of our world religions, the Messiah will be a human man and enlightened with supreme knowledge of God and His truth's. By his knowledge, the Messiah will be able to support and prove the truth's of God with verifiable evidences so there will be no doubts. If you would like to read and consider the similar/consistent profile of the Messiah prophecied to come in many world religions then please see the chapter about the Messiah in World Scripture: http://www.unification.net/ws/

It is also my understanding that many will not recognize the Messiah because they will fail to recognize him as a human man with supreme knowledge. Many expect miracle powers to get their attention. He will come offering the verifiable truth's of God and many will turn away because they cannot let go of their unverifiable beliefs and their expectations of the Messiah associated with their unverifiable beliefs.

Kat

[prodigalson]

From Jonathan Edwards. www.jonathanedwards.com

Jesus Christ The Same Yesterday, Today, And Forever.

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Doctrine/The%20Same.htm

An Unpublished Essay on the Trinity

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/text/trinity.htm

[Aimiel]

Our beliefs are verifiable, and are the ONLY ones that are, since The Father give us the revelation of Who Jesus is (The Christ, The Messiah, The Almighty God, The Everlasting Father and The Prince of Peace; to name just a few) through The Holy Ghost. The other gods, and most every text other than The Holy Bible point to other gods, or false gods, take your pick, can neither hear or speak. Our God not only speaks, He sent His Son to die in our place so we could have eternal life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Our understanding of The Holy Trinity should be easy, since man has a 'triune' nature: we are spirit-beings, who have a soul (personality) and live in a body of flesh. God made us in His Image. He is A Spirit, has Personality and lives in A Body. He is One.

[GaKat]

FamousGandalf7 ~ I am open-minded and welcome you to explain your beliefs about how the Almighty God revealed "who is Jesus" to you through the Holy Ghost (aka the "Comforter" & the "Spirit of truth").

According to scriptures, it is my understanding that Jesus possibly understood his purpose to fulfill the role of the sword. Please read and compare the scriptures. They reveal the possible truth themselves.

Le 26:25 - And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

Mt 10:34 - Think not that I (Jesus) am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Lu 12:51 - Suppose ye that I (Jesus) am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:


In Matt 26:31 & Mr 14:27 (scriptures follow below), Jesus implies that he is fulfilling the OT scripture Zec 13:7. Take a close look at Zec 11:17 (darkness) and compare to Mt 10:27.

Mt 26:31 - Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. (see also Mr 14:27)

Zec 9:13 - When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.


Zec 11:17 - Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Zec 13:7 - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Mt 10:27 - What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.


Compare Mt 10:27 to Isa 8:20 & 1Joh 1:5: Why does Jesus speak in darkness? There is no darkness in the Almighty God.

Isa 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1Joh 1:5 - This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


(compare Ez 39:17-19 to Joh 6:54-56)

Eze 39:17-23 17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. 18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. 19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. 20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD. 21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. 23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Joh 6: 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my (Jesus) flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Read and compare Mt 11:30 (Jesus' burden) to Jer 23:34-40, then read what God says he will do in Jer 23:40:

Matthew 11:25-30 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jer 23:34-40 34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house. 35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God. 37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 38 But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD; 39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: 40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Kat

[Aimiel]

Since I don't (obviously) have your thoughts, could you please give them to me. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[GaKat]

famousgandalf7 ~ Thank you for your consideration to respond to my reply. What I am saying is that it is my understanding according to scriptures that Jesus' purpose was possibly to fulfill the role of the "sword" that God said he would send among us. The "sword" is a significant part of a curse (see Deu 28:1-68) that is poured out on us and one of the Four Sore Judgements (see Eze ch. 14). In Ps 17:13, it says the "sword" is wicked, and Pr 25:18, says a man that beareth false witness against his neighbor is a sword.

There are 384 scriptures in the KJV BIble with the word "sword" in them. Many are about the "sword" that God said He would send to consume us. You can review the scriptures at the following Bible study link:

http://www.biblestudytools.net/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=sword&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=jer&NavGo=17&NavCurrentChapter=17

The Holman Bible Dictionary says there are many symbolic uses for the word "sword" in the Bible. Using a few scripture references I will offer the symbolic uses that I understand are used in the Bible. In Gen 3:24, God placed a flaming sword at the east of the Garden of Eden to guard the tree of life, in Lev 26:25, the sword is sent to avenge the quarrel of God's covenant, a sword is one of the Four Sore Judgements in Eze 14:21, a sword and/or spear is used as a weapon of war as in 1Sam 13:22 & 17:28, a man who is deceitful by his words and actions is considered to be wicked and a sword according to Ps 17:13 & Pr 25:18 , and in the NT there is "one" scripture that says, Eph 6:7 "take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

Jeremiah prophecies a warning that curses any man that makes flesh the arm of God: It also says in Nu 23:19 and Hosea 11:9, that God is not a man.

Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD

Please read the following scriptures, they may help you to better understand the role of the sword.

Eze 21:1-32 1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel, 3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked. 4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: 5 That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more. 6 Sigh therefore, thou son of man, with the breaking of thy loins; and with bitterness sigh before their eyes. 7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD. 8 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 9 Son of man, prophesy, and say, Thus saith the LORD; Say, A sword, a sword is sharpened, and also furbished: 10 It is sharpened to make a sore slaughter; it is furbished that it may glitter: should we then make mirth? it contemneth the rod of my son, as every tree. 11 And he hath given it to be furbished, that it may be handled: this sword is sharpened, and it is furbished, to give it into the hand of the slayer. 12 Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh. 13 Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD. 14 Thou therefore, son of man, prophesy, and smite thine hands together, and let the sword be doubled the third time, the sword of the slain: it is the sword of the great men that are slain, which entereth into their privy chambers. 15 I have set the point of the sword against all their gates, that their heart may faint, and their ruins be multiplied: ah! it is made bright, it is wrapped up for the slaughter. 16 Go thee one way or other, either on the right hand, or on the left, whithersoever thy face is set. 17 I will also smite mine hands together, and I will cause my fury to rest: I the LORD have said it. 18 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 19 Also, thou son of man, appoint thee two ways, that the sword of the king of Babylon may come: both twain shall come forth out of one land: and choose thou a place, choose it at the head of the way to the city. 20 Appoint a way, that the sword may come to Rabbath of the Ammonites, and to Judah in Jerusalem the defenced. 21 For the king of Babylon stood at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination: he made his arrows bright, he consulted with images, he looked in the liver. 22 At his right hand was the divination for Jerusalem, to appoint captains, to open the mouth in the slaughter, to lift up the voice with shouting, to appoint battering rams against the gates, to cast a mount, and to build a fort. 23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken. 24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand. 25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end (see also Dan 11:31-45 & compare to Lu 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. ), 26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. 27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him. 28 And thou, son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning the Ammonites, and concerning their reproach; even say thou, The sword, the sword is drawn: for the slaughter it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering: 29 Whiles they see vanity unto thee, whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of the wicked, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end. 30 Shall I cause it to return into his sheath (compare to Matt 26:52)? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity. 31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy. 32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

Job 19:29 - Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.

Job 20:25 - It is drawn, and cometh out of the body; yea, the glittering sword cometh out of his gall: terrors are upon him. (Compare to Lu 9:29 And as he (Jesus) prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering

Job 27:14 - If his children be multiplied, it is for the sword: and his offspring shall not be satisfied with bread. (compare to Matt 26:26)

Job 36:12 - But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge. (compare to Isa 29:10-14)

Job 40:19 - He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. (compare to Job 1:6-7 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.)

Ps 17:13 - Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:

Ps 37:15 - Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

Ps 78:62 - He gave his people over also unto the sword; and was wroth with his inheritance.

Pr 25:18 - A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.

Isa 34:5 - For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea (compare to Mr 3:8), and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Mark 3:8 - And from Jerusalem (compare to Eze 21:1-3, emphasis on vs 2), and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him (Jesus).

Jer. 25:15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. 16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

John 18:11 - Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? (also compare to Matt 26:26-28)

Jer 25:16 - And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

Jer 25:27 - Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.

Jer 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

Simeon says to Mary in Lu 2:34-35, "Behold, this child (Jesus) is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy (Mary's) own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

In Mt 10:27, Jesus says to his disciples:

Mt 10:27 - What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Isaiah 5:20, warns us about putting darkness for light. And remember, the coming Messiah is suppose to eat butter and honey which is sweet (Isa 7:15), Jesus drank wine which is bitter (Mt 11:19 & Lu 7:34).

Isa 5:20, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Mt 11:19 - The Son of man (Jesus) came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. (See also Lu 7:34)

Jesus is called a King (Luke 23:2-3), a prophet (Luke 7:16), a priest (Hebrews 2:17), and a prince (Rev.1:5) in the NT. Jesus drank wine and by his own admission was called a winebibber, but according to Proverbs and Isaiah, he should not have drank at all.

Pr 31:4 - 5 4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment


If you are wondering why I am here to reveal the possibility that Jesus' purpose was to fulfill the role of the sword, please read and consider what Eze 33:1-9 says.

Eze 33:1-9 1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: 3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; 4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. 6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. 7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. 8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul

Kat

[Aimiel]

That's interesting.

You reminded me, though, of what The Holy Spirit is, He is The Word of God:

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; and for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

I believe that most Christians don't have any armor on, especially their Sword. The Shield is sometimes in their hand, but they have never learned how to use it. I also believe that many of them are useless, when it comes to battle against the enemy, and are blind to his constant barrages.

[OKHARRY]

Out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword going forth, signifies the dispersion of falsities by the Word, and by doctrine thence from the Lord. Mention is very often made in the Word of "sword," "saber," and "long sword," and by them nothing else is signified but truth fighting against falsities and destroying them.

In the opposite sense, the falsity fighting against truths.For by "wars" in the Word, are signified spiritual wars, which are wars of truth against falsity, and of falsity against truth; wherefore, by "the arms of war," such things are signified as are made use of in spiritual wars.

That the dispersion of falsities by the Lord is here meant by sword [romphoea] is evident, because, it was seen "to go out of his mouth;" and to go out of the mouth of the Lord, is to go out of the Word, for this the Lord spoke with His mouth; and as the Word is understood by doctrine, thence this is also signified. It is called "a sharp two-edged sword," because it penetrates the heart and soul.

To show that by "sword" is here meant the dispersion of falsities by the Word from the Lord, some passages shall be adduced in which sword is mentioned:
A sword against Babylon, her princes, and her wise ones. O sword against the liars that they may become foolish. O sword against the mighty, that they may be dismayed. O sword against her horses, and her chariots. O sword against her treasures, that they may be despoiled. A drought is upon her waters, that they may be dried up (Jer. 50:35-38).

These things are said of Babylon ( Catholic Church) , by which those are meant who falsify and adulterate the Word, therefore by the "liars" who will become foolish, and the "horses and chariots" upon whom there is a sword, and the "treasures" which will be despoiled, are signified the falsities of their doctrine.

That the "waters" upon which is a drought that they may be dried up, signify truths, may be seen above.

Prophesy, and say, A sword is sharpened, and also furbished, sharpened to make a great slaughter; and let the sword be repeated the third time; the sword of the pierced; the sword of a great piercing, penetrating the inner parts, that stumbling blocks may be multiplied (Ezek. 21:9-20).

By "sword" is here also meant the devastation of truth in the church.
Jehovah will plead by His sword with all flesh, and the pierced of Jehovah shall be multiplied (Isa. 66:16).

They are called "the pierced of Jehovah" here, and in other parts of the Word, who perish by falsities.

The wasters are come upon all the hills in the wilderness; the sword of Jehovah is devouring from the end of the earth, even to the end of the earth (Jer. 12:12).

We get our bread with the peril of our lives, because of the sword of the wilderness (Lam. 5:9).

Woe to the worthless shepherd that deserteth the flock; the sword shall be upon his arm and upon his right eye (Zech. 11:17).

The sword upon the right eye of the shepherd is the falsity of his understanding.
The sons of men are inflamed, their tongue is a sharp sword (Ps. 57:4).

Behold they belch out with their mouth; a sword is in their lips (Ps. 59:7).

The workers of iniquity whet their tongue like a sword (Ps. 64:3).

The same is signified by @sword in other places, as in Isa. 13:13, 15; 21:14-15; 27:1; 31:7-8; Jer. 2:30; 5:12; 11:22; 14:13-18; Ezek. 7:15; 32:10-12.

Hence it may appear what the Lord meant by "sword" in the following passages:
Jesus said, He came not to send peace on earth, but a sword (Matt. 10:34).

Jesus said, He that hath not a purse and a scrip, let him sell his garments and buy a sword. The disciples said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And He said unto them, It is enough (Luke 22:36, 38).

All they that take the sword, shall perish with the sword (Matt. 26:51-52).

Jesus says, concerning the consummation of the age:
They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations, and at length Jerusalem shall be trodden down (Luke 21:24).

"The consummation of the age" is the last time of the church; "the sword" is falsity destroying truth; the "nations" are evils; "Jerusalem" which shall be trodden down, is the church.

Hence, then, it is evident, that by "a sharp sword going out of the mouth of the Son of man," is signified the dispersion of falsities by the Lord by means of the Word.

From myself: The sword of God means the Word.

The same is signified in the following passages in Revelation:
And there was given unto him who sat upon the red horse a great sword (Rev. 6:4).

And out of the mouth of Him who sat upon the white horse goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse (Rev. 19:15, 21).By "Him who sat upon the white horse," the Lord as to the Word, is meant, which is plainly declared (verses 13, 16).

The same is meant in David:
Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O Mighty One. Ride upon the word of truth. Thine arrows are sharp (Ps. 45:3-5).

Speaking of the Lord. And in another place:
The saints shall exult, and the sword of their mouths is in their hand (Ps. 149:5-6).

And in Isaiah:
Jehovah hath made my mouth a sharp sword (Isa. 49:2).

Harry

[Aimiel]

You should stop pounding this 'sword thing' of yours into the ground, you're making it dull. Although there is something to be said for doing just that, if you're in a slippery place, and need to re-gain your footing. Your sword can be used for many purposes, not the least of which is to keep you from falling from 'The Mountian of The Lord,' as you ascend towards His Presence. Many have fallen, because they did not think of using The Word to give them purchase in their 'predicament.' The Word is something which we all need to learn to use, even upon ourselves. This is the reason The Sword is two-eged, because it cuts both ways; it divides and makes room for itself, making the hearer and the speaker better, because they heard it.

[GaKat]

HARRY ~ Thank you for your consideration to reply. I appologize for the delay in responding, my family and I are leaving for a vacation this Saturday and I've been busy with preparations.

Our understanding of the sword differs in that you understand the sword to be the word of God (truth) and I understand the sword is a deceitful man (Ps 17:13 - Arise, O LORD, disappoint "him", cast "him" down: deliver my soul from "the wicked, which is thy sword:" & Pr 25:18 A "man" that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and "a sword," and a sharp arrow.) (compare also: Pro 12:17-18 & Prov 6:16-23)

I first look to the OT to better understand how the NT might fulfill the prophecies. The one scripture in Ephesians 6:17 is not consistent with the OT scriptures that reference the sword. In Hebrews 4:12, I understand the word of God is sharper than the twoedged sword meaning the sword's words (deceits and flatteries - twoedged possibly could mean mixing lies with the truth) do not compare in power to God's sure truth's. Please read and consider: Heb 4:12 : "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and "sharper than any" twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Because the two NT scriptures (Eph 6:17 & Heb 4:12) lack consistency with each other and lack consistency with the OT sword scriptures, I consider them as unreliable for now.

Please consider God preserves the simple (Ps 19:7) and out of His mouth cometh knowledge and understanding (Pro 2:6). And all of His works are done in truth (Ps 33:4).

My intent for posting the sword scripture references was/is to extend an opportunity to others to consider the strong reasonable possibility that Jesus fulfilled the role of the "sword" that was/is sent among us. His purpose was/is to flatter and deceive many so they willingly continue worshipping a false god/s to the end of days. This was prophecied to happen as a curse that was poured out (deep sleep is poured out on our understanding) to cause many to willingly continue in the sin of our ancestors. If you recall, the curse is poured out because of God's fury with His people continually forsaking Him for false god's/idols. The curse will cause a famine (lack of knowledge and understanding of God's truth's) when the sword's deceits and flatteries consume people and cause them to willingly accept unverifiable beliefs as their understanding of truth. When the people relay their unverifiable beliefs to other's as God's truth, they become like the deceitful sword (a false witness). Therefore they will receive the same punishment as the deceitful sword on Judgement Day. When God reveals His truth's then many people will suddenly and profoundly understand how they allowed themselves to forsake Him for the sword. (Please read Ezekial ch. 21 to achieve your own understanding of how people are prophecied to react when they learn the truth)

According to the scriptures I understand a remnant will be left who will be able to help other's who will then see and understand. (see Eze 15:21-23).

I understand "verifiable truth" is supported by evidence/s that prove something is true. "Possible truth" can be established by reasonable similarities/consistencies among two or more written statements/reports. Possible truth lacks evidence/s to support it as sure truth therefore I will only relay it to other's as a reasonable "possibility of truth." When I read two or more reports about the same event and they lack consistency and/or evidences to support a verifiable truth and/or possible truth then I consider the statement/report as unreliable. When I read and investigate the Bible I use the Dictionary definition of truth that is published in many languages and distributed worldwide so that all people can achieve a similar understanding of how to determine a right understanding of "what is truth." Using the definition of truth makes it simple to determine what is truth and helps me to better understand what is truth/possible truth in the Bible.

Please read and consider the following scriptures in Job and how the sword/man mounts up to heaven by deceit and what God says will happen to the sword/man:

Job 19:29 - Be ye afraid of the "sword:" for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.
Job 20:1-29 1 Then answered Zophar the Naamathite, and said, 2 Therefore do my thoughts cause me to answer, and for this I make haste. 3 I have heard the check of my reproach, and the spirit of my understanding causeth me to answer. 4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, 5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? 6 Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; 7 Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he? 8 He shall fly away as a dream, and shall not be found: yea, he shall be chased away as a vision of the night. 9 The eye also which saw him shall see him no more; neither shall his place any more behold him. 10 His children shall seek to please the poor, and his hands shall restore their goods. 11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust. 12 Though wickedness be sweet in his mouth, though he hide it under his tongue; 13 Though he spare it, and forsake it not; but keep it still within his mouth: 14 Yet his meat in his bowels is turned, it is the gall of asps within him. 15 He hath swallowed down riches, and he shall vomit them up again: God shall cast them out of his belly. 16 He shall suck the poison of asps: the viper's tongue shall slay him. 17 He shall not see the rivers, the floods, the brooks of honey and butter. 18 That which he laboured for shall he restore, and shall not swallow it down: according to his substance shall the restitution be, and he shall not rejoice therein. 19 Because he hath oppressed and hath forsaken the poor; because he hath violently taken away an house which he builded not; 20 Surely he shall not feel quietness in his belly, he shall not save of that which he desired. 21 There shall none of his meat be left; therefore shall no man look for his goods. 22 In the fulness of his sufficiency he shall be in straits: every hand of the wicked shall come upon him. 23 When he is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating. 24 He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through. 25 It is drawn, and cometh out of the body; yea, the glittering sword cometh out of his gall: terrors are upon him. 26 All darkness shall be hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle. 27 The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth shall rise up against him. 28 The increase of his house shall depart, and his goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath. 29 This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God.

I offer this information as a strong reasonable possibility and extend the opportunity to other's to read and investigate the possibility for their own understanding. I think people should have the opportunity to know another reasonable possibility exists that Jesus might fulfill the role of the sword/man. If people will research this information, they might agree it is a reasonable possibility and hopefully they will understand that I want to help people, not hurt them.

May the Almighty God bless and guide you.

Kat

[OKHARRY]

Kay,
"wars" in the Word signify spiritual combats . Hence all "the arms of war," as "the bow," "the sword," "the shield," signify something of spiritual combat.

"Kingdoms" signify churches as to truths and as to falsities.

"Nations" signify those in the church who are in goods and who are in evils.

"Famine" signifies a defect of the knowledges of good and truth. It also signifies the desolation of the church.

"Pestilence" signifies the vastation and consummation of good and truth.

"Earthquakes" signify changes of the state of the church.

Harry

[geralduk]

LOL.

YOU CAN always ASSERT a 'truth' to the detrement of all other scripture if you only take ONE PART of it.

But how do you explain the verse when the disciples asked Him to teach them to pray.
and He siad "after like manner"or according to this pattern you should pray.
"OUR FATHER"!
Now if you say that Jesus was the FATHER this dioes not fit in with your theory or the scriptures.
Nor does the verse which contains the part where the lord said "MY God and YOUR GOD".
I then it was the FATHER jehovah WHO WAS ON EARTH made flesh then who was He praying to while on earth!?
or for that matter speaking to.
and who was it who spoke at His baptism!
from heaven if He was on earth!?
Now I cant make you think anything you dont want to.
But taking a PART of scripture and ignoring all the others that contradict it says at the very least! you need to RETHINk your thinking!
The (APPARANT)contradictions of scripture are a wonderfull blessing if you let them speak for themselves and not try and squeeze OUR theology INTO Gods.
the scriptures are not there to be subject unto us but are there that we may renew OUR minds and be conformed to them.#

I fear you START from the wrong place.
In that first you deny the nature of the Godhead as HE has revealed in in sundry times and in divers ways and in theses last days by His SON.
and then try and FIT the scriptures to whatever 'school' of theology you have been taught in.

The Bible is a WHOLE and indivisible book.
made up of many parts.
but each and EVERY part DOVETAILING with its neighbour and all harmonized with all "line upon line precept upon precept"
and all working to that good ;the enlightenment of man.

So let any verse or passage of scripture be read and UNDERSTOOD in the LIGHT of all the scriptures.
Not the other way around.

[OKHARRY]

The Lord's Prayer, which says: "Our Father, who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come."

The Christian Churches today say this prayer to the Father only. This prayer most be understood that it is to the Father's Divine Human, and this too is the Father's name.

For the Lord said: "Father, glorify your name," that is, your Human. When this happens, the kingdom of God comes.

In order for this prayer to be anything you most believe that the Father became Man. His Divine Human is His right hand.

The instruction to use this prayer has been given us for the present time, that is, so that God the Father may be approached through His Human. The Lord also said: "No one comes to the Father except through Me," and the prophet Isaiah said: "A child is born for us, a Son is given to us, whose name is God, Hero, the everlasting Father".

Elsewhere: "You, Jehovah, are our Father, your Holy Name (Divine Human) is our Redeemer from of old."

There are thousands of other passages where the Lord our Saviour is called Jehovah. This is the true explanation of those words in the Lord's Prayer.'

The Lord's prayer was meant only for those who acknowledge the Lord alone as the Father, as in John 14:8, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Who else is the Father?

Harry

[OKHARRY]

God is Divinely human. Throughout the heavens one finds no other idea of God than the idea of a person. The reason is that heaven in its totality and in every part is in its form as though a single person, and it is the Divine existing in angels which forms heaven.

Thought, moreover, proceeds in accordance with the form of heaven. Consequently it is impossible for angels to think of God in any other way.

For the same reason, all people in the world who are conjoined with heaven think similarly of God when they think inwardly in themselves or in their spirit.

It is because God is human that all angels and all spirits are human beings in perfect form. The form of heaven causes this, its form being the same in its greatest and in its least constituents.

That people were created in the image and likeness of God is known from Genesis 1:26, 27; and it is also known that God appeared as a Human to Abraham and others.)

People in ancient times, from the wise to the simple among them, thought of God only as a Man, and when they eventually began to worship a plurality of gods, as they did in Athens and Rome, they worshiped them all as persons.

Harry

[Aimiel]

GaKat,

I believe that you are attributing the attributes of the deceiver (Satan) to Christ. I know that He is not a deceiver, since His Word is Truth, and also because He cannot do anything except He sees The Father do it. If He were The Deciever, how could He have gone about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil? A house divided against itself cannot stand. Can Satan cast out Satan? Not only is what you are espousing error, but it is also ridiculous.

Jesus' ministry on this earth was as The Lamb of God. When He returns as The Lion, there will be no mis-understanding His Word. It will destroy His Enemies. Those who teach that He is a deceiver will be among the dead.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by GaKat
It is apparent that many people forget the Almighty God is the God of truth. Is that a verifiable truth? Or do you believe this just because the Bible says so?

[okinrus]

No because our heart says so. If we were to disbelieve in God our concience would convict us and we would be filled with everlasting gloom.

[geralduk]

The 'lords PRAYER' as it is called is NOT a prayer as such.
Nor should we use it in "vain repertition"
What the CONTEXT was that the apsotles asked the |ord to TEACH them to pray.
There is a WORLD of difference between SAYING a prayer and praying!
If you think about is it serioosly sugested that this is the LORDS prayer in that everytime "He went up the mountain to pray" He prayed this prayer?
of course not.
But what He replied was "In LIKE manner pray"
meaning AFTER THIS PATTERN we should pray.
Not slavishly foloing the words.
But with UNDERSTANDING of WHO we are PRAYING TO.
" OUR FATHER"
and whith the concios realization of where WE are and above all where HE is:
"who art in HEAVEN"
With a HOLY REVERENCE pray with the supreme regard that "HALLOWED BE THY NAME"
making FIRST priority when we pray to be "THY KINGDOM come"and THY will be done.
For BEFORE all ELSE this must be sought FIRST "then all these other things shall be added unto you"
Even this hardly touches the subject.
but God gave Moses a PATTERN of the tabernacle WHICH " I WILL SHOW YOU"
And that pattern shows you do not just breeeze into the prescence of God without thought or reason.
But in entering the FIRST thing that sobers you is the place of sacrafice.
then .............
Likewise with prayer.
The more we prepare our hearts and STOP and consider WHO it is we come to and WHERE He is and HOW He is the more EFFECTIVE and lively will be our prayers.

[OKHARRY]

The prayers of the saints, signifies from which is worship. This is evident from the signification of the "prayers of the saints," as being worship from spiritual good, "prayers," in the internal sense, mean all things of worship; and "saints" things spiritual.

For those who are in the Lord's spiritual kingdom are called in the Word "saints" [or "holy"], and those who are in His celestial kingdom are called "righteous" [or "just"].

But in the internal sense of the Word by "saints" are not meant saints [holy men], but things holy, for the term "saints" involves persons, and in the internal sense everything of person is put off, for things solely make that sense (see above; and that the angels, because they are spiritual, think abstractly from persons.

This is what distinguishes the internal sense of the Word from its external sense, which is the sense of the letter; and as "saints" thus mean things holy, and "holy" in the Word means the Divine truth proceeding from the Lord, and making His spiritual kingdom, so by "saints" things spiritual are meant, and by the "prayers of the saints" worship from spiritual good.

That worship from that good is meant by the "prayers of the saints" is evident from this, that it is said "they had golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;" and "incense" signifies all things of worship that are from spiritual good (as was shown in the preceding paragraph); from which it follows that the "prayers of the saints" has a like signification.

As also in David:
Give ear unto my voice when I call unto Thee. Let my prayers be received as incense before Thee; the lifting up of my hands as the evening meal-offering. Guard the door of my lips; let not my heart decline to evil, to do evil deeds in wickedness with the men who work iniquity; for still my prayers are in their evils (Ps. 141:1-5).

Here also "prayers" are called "incense," and "the lifting up of the hands" is called a "meal-offering;" and this because "prayers" and "incense" have a similar signification, also "lifting up of the hands" and "meal-offering."

"Incense" signifies spiritual good, which is the good of charity towards the neighbor; and "meal-offering" signifies celestial good, which is the good of love to the Lord, both signifying worship. And as prayers are not from the mouth, but from the heart by the mouth, and all worship that is from the heart is from the good of love and charity, for the heart signifies that, so it is also said, "Guard the door of my lips; let not my heart decline to evil, to do evil deeds in wickedness." And because David is lamenting that evils still have power against him, he says, "for still my prayers are in their evils."

That "prayers" have a similar meaning as "incense" is evident also from other passages in Revelation:
Another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he might offer it with the prayers of all the saints, upon the golden altar. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God (Rev. 8:3-4).

Harry

[GaKat]

Harry ~ Thank you for your kind consideration to offer your understanding of the words you listed in post # 34. I agree that sometimes a word can signify a particular meaning as you referenced in your post. I offer my opinion that many of the words you referenced might also be used in the Bible according to their Dictionary definition. In fairness to better understand, I think it is best to consider the particular word that you referenced in each scripture, then decide the reasonable context in which it is used.

Please consider according to Webster's New World Dictionary the word "bow" does also mean: 1. to bend or stoop 2. to bend the head or body in respect, agreement, worship, recognition, etc. 3. to yeild or submit, as to authority

The stripture reference below is one that I understand uses the word "bow" according to the Dictionary definition that I provided above.

Ps 37:15 - Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

The following is how I understand the scripture: Their sword (possibly Jesus) shall enter into their own heart (they will love him), and their bows (worship) shall be broken.

My understanding of the words "sword and "bow" in the scripture is possibly different to what many other's might understand. This is an example of why I read the scripture and then fairly decide what a particular word might mean or signify.

Kat

[GaKat]

Aimiel ~ Thank you for your consideration to offer your understanding of Jesus and who he might be. I am not here to teach, I came to offer an opportunity to other's to consider for their own understanding another reasonable possibility that Jesus might fulfill the "sword prophecies." It is my understanding that Jesus himself implies that he came to send a sword, but not peace and that he fulfills the OT scripture, Zec 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

There are many similarities/consistencies among the OT and NT scriptures that I understand will support a reasonable possibility that Jesus fulfills the "sword." It requires much reading and investigating the scriptures to better understand the possibility. For this reason, many reject the opportunity. Many do not want to make the effort to read and investigate the possibility.

Ho 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
I understand that God knows well what I do and/or say to other's. And I know that on Judgement Day I will be judged fairly and justifiably according to my good and bad deeds. As a fair and just God, I think He might know that I offer the information as a possibility and not as a sure truth. And that I also ask other's to achieve their own understanding of the information.


You asked, "If He were The Deceiver, how could He have gone about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil?"

I offer you the following scriptures to consider the possibility of how Jesus could do those things.

Rev 13:9-16 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

You asked, "A house divided against itself cannot stand. Can Satan cast out Satan?"

Jesus spoke with reason when he stated this. Satan is the father of lies and deceit, therefore it is reasonable to consider that a house built on Satan's lies and divided in their understanding and/or acceptance of certain lies cannot stand because eventually all of Satan's lies can be destroyed by God's truth's. Can lies cast out lies? No, but truth can cast out lies.

Kat

[GaKat]

Skeptic ~ Thank you for your consideration to post your question, "Is that a verifiable truth? Or do you believe this just because the Bible says so?"

My understanding of God is not limited to the Bible. I use the book, "World Scripture" to better understand the many similarities/consistencies that are among various world religions texts. The following link will provide the strong consistent possibility among religion texts that God is the God of truth.

World Scripture: Ch. 1 Ultimate Reality: http://www.unification.net/ws/intch1.htm

Kat

[OKHARRY]

This is from Swedenborg. While he was in the spiritual world the angels read his mind and saw that he was thinking same the way you think about the Holy Trinity:

The angels perceived in my thought those ideas of God that prevail in the Christian Church respecting a trinity of persons in unity and a unity of persons in a trinity.

Also respecting a birth of the Son of God from eternity,and they said, "What is in your thoughts? Are you not thinking from natural light, which is not in accord with our spiritual light? Unless, therefore, you dismiss these ideas from your thoughts or else we will shut up heaven against you and depart."

But I said, "Enter, I pray you, more deeply into my thought, and you will see, perhaps, that there is an agreement between us." This they did; and they saw that by three persons I understood three Divine attributes going forth, Creation, Redemption, and Regeneration, and that these are attributes of one God.

From myself: I had post this before that one God is the Creator, Redeemer and Regenerator. It is the same attributes of one God.

Also, that by the birth of the Son of God from eternity I understood His birth foreseen from eternity and provided in time; (also that to think of the Son born of God from eternity would, to me, be not above nature and reason but contrary to nature and reason.

While to think of the Son born of God in time through the virgin Mary as the only Son of God, and the only-begotten, is very different; and to believe otherwise than this would be a monstrous error.

I then told them that the source of my natural thought about a trinity and unity of persons, and the birth of a Son of God from eternity, was the doctrine of faith in the church which has its name from Athanasius.

Then the angels said, "Very well," and asked me to say from them that only those who approach the very God of heaven and earth can enter heaven, because heaven is heaven from that only God, and that this God is Jesus Christ, who is the Lord Jehovah, from eternity the Creator, in time the Redeemer, and to eternity the Regenerator, thus who is at once Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and this, they said, is the gospel to be preached.

After this the heavenly light which had been seen before over the opening returned, and gradually descended and filled the interiors of my mind, and enlightened my ideas on the trinity and unity of God; and the ideas which I had first formed on these subjects, and which had been merely natural, I then saw separated as chaff is separated from wheat by winnowing, and carried away as by a wind to the north of heaven, and scattered.

Harry

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by GaKat You (Aimiel) asked, "If He were The Deceiver, how could He have gone about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil?"

I offer you the following scriptures to consider the possibility of how Jesus could do those things.

Rev 13:9-16 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.OK, so what do you believe these scriptures have to do with my question? I see no correllation.Earlier, GaKat posted this originally in what is currently numbered Post 33, on this thread:

His (Jesus') purpose was/is to flatter and deceive many so they willingly continue worshipping a false god/s to the end of days.I replied, "A house divided against itself cannot stand. Can Satan cast out Satan?"Jesus spoke with reason when he stated this. Satan is the father of lies and deceit, therefore it is reasonable to consider that a house built on Satan's lies and divided in their understanding and/or acceptance of certain lies cannot stand because eventually all of Satan's lies can be destroyed by God's truth's. Can lies cast out lies? No, but truth can cast out lies. OK, so how can Christ be The Deciever, (according to you) and cast out the deceiver? Please notice some severe flaws in your thinking as you try to come up with an 'answer.' The Lord is not a deceiver, but He is Truth, Jesus is called The Word of God, and God's Word is Truth. He is not about telling lies. :doh:

[OKHARRY]

Rev.13
Verse 1. "And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea" signifies the laity in the churches of the Reformed, who are principled in the doctrine and faith of the dragon concerning God and salvation: "Having seven heads" signifies insanity arising from mere falsities: "And ten horns" signifies much power: "And upon his horns ten diadems" signifies the power of falsifying many truths of the Word: "And upon his heads the name of blasphemy" signifies denial of the Lord's Divine Human, and doctrine of the church not drawn from the Word, but from self-derived intelligence.

Verse 2. "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard" signifies a heresy destructive of the church because derived from truths of the Word falsified: "And his feet like a bear's" signifies full of fallacies from the literal sense of the Word read but not understood: "And his mouth as the mouth of a lion" signifies reasonings from falsities as if from truths: "And the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority" signifies that this heresy prevails and reigns in consequence of its reception by the laity.

Verse 3. "And I saw one of his heads as if wounded to death" signifies that the doctrine of faith alone does not accord with the Word, in which works are so often enjoined: "And the stroke of his death was healed" signifies the remedy applied on this account: "And the whole earth wondered after the beast" signifies that then this doctrine and faith was gladly received.

Verse 4. "And they adored the dragon which gave authority to the beast" signifies the acknowledgment that it is such as is laid down by the leaders and teachers, who have established its authority on the reception they have procured for it among the community at large: "And they adored the beast" signifies the acknowledgment on the part of the community that it is holy truth: "Saying, who is like unto the beast? Who is able to fight with him?" signifies the excellence of that doctrine, because it cannot be contradicted by anyone.

Verse 5. "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies" signifies that it teaches what is evil and false: "And there was given unto him authority to work forty-two months" signifies the liberty of teaching and doing the evils and falsities of that doctrine, even to the end of that church and the beginning of the new.

Verse 6. "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name" signifies their sayings, which are scandals against the essential Divinity and Divine Human of the Lord, and at the same time against everything relating to the church derived from the Word, whereby the Lord is worshiped: "And his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven" signifies scandals against the Lord's celestial kingdom and against heaven.

Verse 7. "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them," signifies that they have impugned the Divine truths of the Word, and cast them down to the ground: "And there was given him authority over every tribe and tongue and nation" signifies consequent dominion over all things of the church, both as to its doctrine and as to its life.

Verse 8. "And all that dwell on the earth shall adore him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb" signifies that all acknowledged that heretical doctrine as holy in the church, except those who believed in the Lord: "Slain from the foundation of the world" signifies the Lord's Divine Human not acknowledged from the first establishment of the church.

Verse 9. "If anyone hath an ear let him hear" signifies that they should attend to this who desire to attain wisdom.

Verse 10. "If anyone shall lead into captivity he shall go into captivity" signifies that he who by means of this heretical doctrine misleads others from believing well and living well, will himself be drawn into hell by his own evils and falsities: "If anyone shall kill with the sword he must be killed with the sword" signifies that he who by means
of falsities destroys the soul of another, is himself destroyed by falsities, and perishes: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" signifies that the man of the Lord's New Church, by temptations from such things, is explored as to the quality of his life and faith.

Verse 11. "And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth" signifies the clergy who are principled in the doctrine and faith of the dragon concerning God and salvation: "And he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon" signifies that what they say, teach, and write is from the Word, as though it were the Lord's Divine truth, and yet it is truth falsified.

Verse 12. "And he exerciseth all the authority of the first beast before him" signifies that they confirmed these tenets, which thence derive their authority: "And he causeth the earth and them that dwell therein to adore the first beast whose stroke of his death was healed" signifies that from their being received by the community at large, it is established and confirmed that they ought to be acknowledged and held sacred in the church.

Verse 13. "And he doeth great signs" signifies testifications that the things they teach are true, although they are false: "So that he also maketh fire to come down from heaven unto the earth before men" signifies attestations that their falsities are truths.

Verse 14. "And he seduceth them that dwell upon the earth, on account of the signs, which were given him to do before the beast" signifies that by their testifications and attestations they lead the men of the church into errors: "Saying to them that dwell upon the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which hath the stroke of a sword and did live" signifies that they induce the men of the church to receive for doctrine, that faith is the only medium of salvation, for the reasons already mentioned.

Verse 15. "And it was given unto him to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast may both speak" signifies that it was permitted them to confirm that doctrine by means of the Word, whereby it does as it were receive life when it is taught: "And cause that as many as do not adore the image of the beast should be killed" signifies that they denounce damnation against those who do not acknowledge their doctrine of faith to be the holy doctrine of the church.

Verse 16. "And he causeth all, both the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond" signifies all in that church, whatsoever may be their condition, learning, and intelligence: "That he should give them a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads" signifies that no one is acknowledged to be a Reformed Christian unless he receives that doctrine in faith and love.

Verse 17. "And that no one could buy or sell, if he hath not the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" signifies that it is not lawful for anyone to teach from the Word, unless he acknowledges it, and swears to the belief and love thereof, or to something which amounts to the same.

Verse 18. "Here is wisdom" signifies that it is the part of a wise man, from what had been said and explained in this chapter, to see and understand the nature of the doctrine and faith of the clergy respecting God and salvation: "He that hath intelligence let him count the number of the beast" signifies that he who is in illumination from the Lord, may know the nature and quality of the proofs they produce from the Word in confirmation of that doctrine and faith: "For it is the number of a man" signifies the quality of the Word and thence of the church: "And his number is six hundred sixty-six" signifies this quality, that all the truth of the Word is falsified by them.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

Apocalypse Revealed by Swedenborg.

Rev.12:3
And another sign in heaven was seen signifies a revelation by the Lord concerning those who are against the New Church and its doctrine. And behold a great red dragon signifies those in the Church of the Reformed who make God three and the Lord two, and who separate charity from faith, and make faith saving and not charity at the same time. Having seven heads signifies insanity resulting from the truths of the Word falsified and profaned. And ten horns signifies much power. And upon his heads seven diadems signifies all the truths of the Word falsified and profaned.

Revelation concerns the Lord and His church, not about nations and people.

Harry

[okinrus]

Mathew 28:17 "When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted" So either Jesus is God and his disciples did not break the 1st commandment or Jesus is not God and his disciples should be stoned.

[GaKat]

Aimiel ~ Thank you for your consideration to reply. You asked, "OK, so how can Christ be The Deciever, (according to you) and cast out the deceiver?" Your opinion was, "Please notice some severe flaws in your thinking as you try to come up with an 'answer.' The Lord is not a deceiver, but He is Truth, Jesus is called The Word of God, and God's Word is Truth. He is not about telling lies."

If Jesus is the Deceiver (and yes, I think he is) how can he cast out the Deceiver? The answer is simple, the Deceiver cannot cast himself out as long as he continues to deceive other's, however I do think it's possible the Deceiver might be able to cast himself out by choosing to change his deceitful ways to always be truthful. The most reasonable way to cast out deceit is by verifiable truth.

Anyone who goes about deceiving other's has the ability to change their ways. All it requires is willingness to change and a continued effort to be good and truthful. Changing for the better will help people on Judgement Day, however, we will be judged fairly according to all our good and bad deeds and our fate depends on whether or not our good deeds outweigh the bad and God's mercy.

God's word is truth. Truth is supported by provable evidence/s. Where are the evidences that will support and prove to all people that Jesus is the rightful Messiah and/or that he is God? Which Gospel tells the truth about Jesus' supposed divine birth, Matthew or Luke? They are inconsistent with each other, so which is true and can either story be verifiably proven? I ask the same about the resurrection, four Gospel's report inconsistent events, which one is the truth and can any of the stories be proven? The four Gospels report similar/consistent events about the crucifiction, which supports the event as being possibly true, so why are the birth and resurrection stories inconsistent?

Kat

[OKHARRY]

From Swedenborg's "Divine Providence 224"

Who cannot see that the external derives its existence from the internal and consequently has its essence from the internal.

Everyone knows from experience that the external can appear otherwise than in accordance with the essence it has from the internal.

There is manifestly such an appearance with hypocrites, flatterers and dissemblers; and that a man can outwardly personate characters not his own is manifest from actors and mimics.

They know how to represent kings, emperors and even angels, in tone of voice, speech, face and gesture, as though they were really such, when yet they are but players.

Moreover, this has been stated because man can in similar manner act the @deceiver both in civil and moral affairs and in spiritual matters; and it is well known that many do so.

When the internal in its essence is infernal, and the external in its form appears spiritual, and yet, as has been said, the external derives its essence from the internal, it may be asked where in the external that essence lies concealed.

It does not appear in the gesture, in the tone of voice, in the speech, or in the face, and yet it is interiorly hidden in all four of these.

That it is interiorly hidden in these is clearly manifest from these same things in the spiritual world.

For when a man comes from the natural world into the spiritual world, as he does at death, he leaves behind his externals with the body, and retains his internals which he had stored up in his spirit.

Then if his internal was infernal he appears as a devil, even such as he was as to his spirit while he lived in the world. Who does not acknowledge that every man leaves behind external things with the body, and enters into internal things when he becomes a spirit?

To this I will add that in the spiritual world there is a communication of affections and of thoughts derived from these. Consequently no one can speak otherwise than as he thinks.

Everyone there changes his countenance and resembles his own affection so that his character is apparent from his countenance.

Hypocrites are sometimes permitted to speak otherwise than as they think, but the tone of their voice is quite out of harmony with their interior thoughts, and by this discordance they are recognised.

Hence it may be evident that the internal lies concealed interiorly in the tone of the voice, the speech, the face and the gesture of the external; but it is not perceived by men in the natural world although it is clearly perceived by angels in the spiritual world.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

From Swedenborg's Apocalypse Revealed.

1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He signified, sending by His angel to His servant John.

From myself: Christians reading the words above think that God is two person, because it saids," The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him."

In order for Jehovah God's Revelation to work He had to put on a Human Form. When Jesus spoke that was Jehovah God's exterrnal speaking. Jehovah God's external was the Son of God.

From Swedenborg:
Rev.1
Verse 1. The revelation of Jesus Christ, signifies predictions from the Lord concerning Himself and His church, what the latter will be in its end, and what it will be afterwards, as well in the heavens as upon earth.

By "the revelation of Jesus Christ" are signified all predictions, which because they are from the Lord, are called the Revelation of Jesus Christ; that they relate to the Lord and His church, will appear from the explanations.

In Revelation it does not treat of the successive states of the church, still less of the successive states of kingdoms, as some have hitherto believed, but there from beginning to end it treats of the last state of the church in the heavens and on the earth.

It concerns the Last Judgment; and after this of the New Church, which is the New Jerusalem.

That this New Church is the end of this work, is evident, wherefore those things which precede refer to the state of the church, as to its quality just before it. But in what series these are treated of, may be seen from the contents of each chapter; and more distinctly from the explanation of each particular verse.

Harry

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by GaKat If Jesus is the Deceiver (and yes, I think he is) how can he cast out the Deceiver? The answer is simple, the Deceiver cannot cast himself out as long as he continues to deceive other's, however I do think it's possible the Deceiver might be able to cast himself out by choosing to change his deceitful ways to always be truthful. The most reasonable way to cast out deceit is by verifiable truth. That makes perfect sense. To you, maybe. Not to anyone else. Jesus is The Creator, and does not tell lies. Get a clue.Anyone who goes about deceiving other's has the ability to change their ways.God's character never changes, in fact, in Him there is not even a 'shadow of turning.'All it requires is willingness to change and a continued effort to be good and truthful.What does good and truthful have to do with someone who is a deceiver?Changing for the better will help people on Judgement Day, however, we will be judged fairly according to all our good and bad deeds and our fate depends on whether or not our good deeds outweigh the bad and God's mercy.That is another place where you are wrong. No one EVER got into Heaven on their merits, except Jesus. Our righteousness is altogether filthy rags. Only The Blood of The Lamb can bring someone into Heaven.God's word is truth.That is Who Jesus is, God's Word. The Sword of The Lord. The Sword of The Spirit of Truth.Truth is supported by provable evidence/s.Truth is it's own evidence.Where are the evidences that will support and prove to all people that Jesus is the rightful Messiah and/or that he is God?The Holy Spirit's witness.Which Gospel tells the truth about Jesus' supposed divine birth, Matthew or Luke?Both.They are inconsistent with each other, so which is true and can either story be verifiably proven?The Word of God proves Itself. There is more corroberating evidence in The Holy Bible that Jesus was born, crucified and rose from the dead than any other historical fact of antiquity. The witness of The Holy Ghost also gives us a more sure record than any eyewitness account.I ask the same about the resurrection, four Gospel's report inconsistent events, which one is the truth and can any of the stories be proven?Where?The four Gospels report similar/consistent events about the crucifiction, which supports the event as being possibly true, so why are the birth and resurrection stories inconsistent?Again, where? There are no 'inconsistencies.'

[GaKat]

Aimiel ~ Thank you for your consideration to respond to my reply. From reading your replies I understand and accept that you choose to have strong faith that your belief in Jesus is true. From my post and replies, you might understand that I do not share the same faith in the beliefs that Jesus is God or the beliefs that he is the Messiah.

You have sugested that I should get a clue. I would like to think that I have gotten many clues by reading and investigating the Bible, various religion texts, and other related resources. It is my understanding, although many other's might agree that there are no known evidences that will support the NT scriptures about Jesus to be the verifiable truth. It is reasonable to suggest (and many Clergy and Religion Scholars do suggest) that Jesus is worshipped by many because they have faith and believe the NT scriptures about him are true.

You stated, "God's character never changes, in fact, in Him there is not even a 'shadow of turning.'"

I have not suggested that God's character has changed or turned. It is your belief that Jesus is God but I do not share your belief. I worship the Almighty God as one supreme God.

You asked, "What does good and truthful have to do with someone who is a deceiver?"

I have hope that anyone who goes about deceiving other's with lies can change their ways and be good and truthful to other's.

You stated, "That is another place where you are wrong. No one EVER got into Heaven on their merits, except Jesus. Our righteousness is altogether filthy rags. Only The Blood of The Lamb can bring someone into Heaven."

The Almighty God is our judge and I accept that His judgements will be fair and just. It is my understanding that the true rightful Messiah will come to enlighten us with all truth's and then we will learn righteousness. It is the Almighty God who will decide who makes it into Heaven. Although I will offer that being loyal to worship the Almighty God and keeping His commandments can help people.

You stated, "That is Who Jesus is, God's Word. The Sword of The Lord. The Sword of The Spirit of Truth."

It is a strong reasonable possibility that Jesus might fulfill the "sword" prophecies. The OT scriptures say that God would send a "sword" among us to consume us. Your understanding of the sword and my understanding of the sword are different.

You stated, "Truth is it's own evidence."

According to the Dictionary definition "truth" is supported by evidence/s. Truth conforms to fact.

The Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is described as the Spirit of truth. Is it logical that the Spirit of truth would verify the truth because He could?

If the Gospels accounts of Jesus' supposed divine birth and his resurrection are true, where are the evidence/s that support it as truth? Truth is simple to understand when there are evidences to support a truth.

You stated, "The Word of God proves Itself. There is more corroberating evidence in The Holy Bible that Jesus was born, crucified and rose from the dead than any other historical fact of antiquity. The witness of The Holy Ghost also gives us a more sure record than any eyewitness account."

The scriptures cannot support a truth by themselves. Show me evidences that support the scriptures to be truth. I can have faith in verifiable truth but I do not have faith in unverifiable beliefs.

Read the four Gospels stories about the resurrection. Where each stories begins with Mary Magdalene going to the tomb is where all four stories differ. The inconsistencies are very noticeable. Read the two Gospel's stories of Jesus' birth, there are noticeable inconsistencies in the events that are recorded to have happened.

There are inconsistencies in the birth and resurrection events. Many people recognize them and discount the reports as unreliable. But many explain them away and accept them to be true.

Kat

[OKHARRY]

From Swedenborg's "Heaven and Hell" 30

Concerning Divine Order:
30. The interiors of a man which belong to his internal mind (mens) and his external mind (animus) are also in like order. He has an inmost, a middle and an outermost part.

For when man was created, all things of Divine order were brought together in him, so that he became Divine order in form, and consequently, a heaven in the least form. For this reason man, as regards his interiors, has communication with the heavens.

Also he comes, after death, among angels, among those of the inmost, middle or outermost heaven in accordance with the reception of Divine good and truth from the Lord while he lived in the world.

All things of Divine order are brought together in man, and by creation man is Divine order in form.

In man the internal man was formed after the image of heaven, and the external after the image of the world, and this is why man was called by the ancients a microcosm.

Thus man in respect of his interiors is by creation a heaven in least form after the image of the greatest; and such also man becomes when he has been created anew or regenerated by the Lord.

From Divine Providence 331

THE LORD CANNOT ACT CONTRARY TO THE LAWS OF THE DIVINE PROVIDENCE, BECAUSE TO ACT CONTRARY TO THEM WOULD BE TO ACT CONTRARY TO HIS DIVINE LOVE AND HIS DIVINE WISDOM, THUS CONTRARY TO HIMSELF
It has been shown in THE ANGELIC WISDOM CONCERNING THE DIVINE LOVE AND WISDOM that the Lord is Divine Love and Divine Wisdom, and that these two are Being (Esse) itself and Life itself, from which everything is and lives.

It is shown also that there is a like proceeding from Him, and that the Divine proceeding is Himself.

Among the things which proceed the Divine Providence is primary, for this is continually in the end for which the universe was created.

The operation and the progression of the end through means is what is called the Divine Providence.

Now since the Divine proceeding is Himself and the Divine Providence is the primary thing that proceeds, it follows that to act contrary to the laws of His Divine Providence is to act contrary to Himself.

It may also be said that the Lord is Providence, as it is said that God is Order, for the Divine Providence is the Divine Order primarily with regard to the salvation of men; and as there is no order without laws, for laws constitute order and every law derives from order that it also is order, it follows that as God is Order He is also the law of His own Order.

Similarly, it may be said of the Divine Providence that as the Lord is His own Providence He is also the law of His own Providence. Hence it is clear that the Lord cannot act contrary to the laws of His Divine Providence, because to act contrary to them would be to act contrary to Himself.

From myself: The work of Divine Providence is from an unchangeing God, from the Lord Himself, who is the Holy Spirit Himself. All things are done by the Lord in man is according to Divine Order, which is the Lord's Divine Divine Providence.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

I have not suggested that God's character has changed or turned. It is your belief that Jesus is God but I do not share your belief. I worship the Almighty God as one supreme God.


Kat,
From Swedenborg's Doctrine of the Lord 45:

GOD IS ONE, AND THE LORD IS THAT GOD.
It is evident that the Lord is called Jehovah, the God of Israel and of Jacob, the Holy One of Israel, Lord, and God, and also King, the Anointed, and David, from which it may be seen, as yet however as through a glass, darkly, that the Lord is God Himself, from and about whom is the Word.

Now it is known in the whole world that God is one, and no man possessed of sound reason denies it. It remains therefore to confirm this from the Word and, in addition, that the Lord is that God.

1. That God is one, is confirmed by these passages of the Word:
Jesus said, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord; therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul (Mark 12:29, 30).

Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah; and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul (Deut. 6:4, 5).

One came unto Jesus and said, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but the one God (Matt. 19:16, 17).

That all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone art Jehovah (Isa. 37: 20).
I am Jehovah and there is none else there is no God besides Me that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is no God besides Me: I am Jehovah and there is none else (Isa. 45:5, 6).

O Jehovah of Armies, God of Israel, that dwellest on the cherubim, Thou art the God, even Thou alone, over all the kingdoms of the earth (Isa. 37:16).

Is there a God besides Me? and a Rock? I know not any (Isa. 44:8).
Who is God save Jehovah? and who is a Rock save our God? (Ps. 18:31).

2. That the Lord is that God, is confirmed by these passages of the Word:
Surely God is in thee, and there is none else, there is no God. Verily Thou art a God that hidest Thyself, O God of Israel, the Savior (Isa. 45:14, 15).

Have not I Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me, a just God and a Savior, there is none besides Me. Look unto Me that ye may be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else (Isa. 45:21, 22).

I am Jehovah, and besides Me there is no Savior (Isa. 43:11).
I am Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt acknowledge no God but Me; for there is no Savior besides Me (Hos. 13:4).

Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel, and his Redeemer Jehovah of Armies, I am the First and I am the Last, and besides Me there is no God (Isa. 44:6).

Jehovah of Armies is His name, and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel the God of the whole earth shall He be called (Isa. 54:5).

In that day Jehovah shall be king over all the earth; in that day there shall be one Jehovah, and His name one (Zech. 14:9).

As the Lord alone is the Savior and the Redeemer, and as it is said that Jehovah is that Savior and Redeemer, and that there is none besides Him, it follows that the one God is no other than the Lord.

From myself:
The same God who made these Divine sayings above, came down from eternity and was made man in order do the works of redemption. For one God is the Creator, Redeemer and Regenerator. Salvation is impossible without this one God becoming a Man.

God is one, in Person and in Essence. A visible God is more understanding than an unvisible one, therefore God Almighty became Man. From Jesus, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." John 14:8

Harry

[GaKat]

Harry ~ Thank you for your consideration to offer Swedenborg's Doctrine of the Lord 45, for my consideration to read. I am open-minded to consider what I might learn from the information that other's offer to support their understanding of God, the Bible, Jesus, etc... And I appreciate your effort to provide references for me and other's to read and consider.

I agree the Almighty God is "one" supreme God. For many reasons however, I do not agree that Jesus is God born in the flesh. I called myself a Methodist Christian for much of my life, but even then I did not believe that Jesus is God. I did once believe that Jesus was the son of God and the Messiah. It's been almost four years since I set aside my then current beliefs to seek a better understanding of God and His truth's and/or possible truth's for my own understanding. I have read and considered many sources of information about God and I still do not believe that Jesus is God.

The KJV Bible is the source of information that I have read and investigated the most, however, I do not limit my understanding of God to one source. A source that I find very interesting is the book, "World Scripture," because it is a comparative analogy of many of the world's sacred texts. A group of 44 scholars of various world religions contributed to the book. If you are interested to read what the scholars offer as consistencies among many of our world religions sacred texts, it can be read online at: http://www.unification.net/ws/

In my opinion, I think you provide many good scripture references that support God to be "one" God. "One" God is also a consistency that exists among many of our world religion's sacred texts. It is considered that many people worship the same "one" God even though the various religions texts refer to Him by different names.

May God bless and guide you.

Kat

[OKHARRY]

Kat,

From Swedenborg's True Christian Religion 82:

82. (1) Jehovah God descended and assumed a Human that He might redeem men and save them. In the Christian churches at this day it is believed that God the Creator of the universe begat a Son from eternity, and that this Son descended and assumed a Human in order to redeem and save men.

But this is an error, and of itself falls to the ground as soon as it is considered that God is one, and that it is worse than incredible in the sight of reason to say that the one God begat a Son from eternity, and that God the Father, together with the Son and Holy Spirit, each one of whom singly is God, is one God.

This incredible notion is wholly dissipated, like a falling star in midair, when it is shown from the Word that Jehovah God Himself descended and became Man and also Redeemer.

[2] The first statement, that it was Jehovah God Himself who descended and became Man, is made clear in the following passages:
Behold, a virgin shall conceive and shall bear a Son, who shall be called God-with-us (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:22, 23).

Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, God, Mighty, Father of Eternity, the Prince of Peace (Isa. 9:6).

It shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him that He may deliver us; this is Jehovah; we have waited for Him; let us exult and be glad in His salvation (Isa. 25:9).

The voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare ye the way of Jehovah; make level in the wilderness a highway for our God, and all flesh shall see it together (Isa. 40:3, 5).

Behold, the Lord Jehovah cometh in strength, and His arm shall rule for Him behold, His reward is with Him. He shall feed His flock like a shepherd (Isa. 40:10, 11).

Jehovah said, Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for lo, I come to dwell in the midst of thee. Then many nations shall cleave to Jehovah in that day (Zech. 2:10, 11).

I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and I will give thee for a covenant of the people. I am Jehovah; this is My name; My glory will I not give to another (Isa. 42:6-8).

Behold, the days come, that I will raise up unto David a righteous Branch and He shall reign as King, and He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth, and this is His name, Jehovah our righteousness (Jer. 23:5, 6; 33:15, 16).

See also the places where the Lord's coming is called "the day of Jehovah" (as in Isa. 13:6, 9, 13, 22; Ezek. 31:15; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 2, 11; 3:1, 14, 18; Amos 5:13, 18, 20; Zeph. 1:7-18; Zech. 14:1, 4-21; and elsewhere).

[3] That it was Jehovah Himself who descended and assumed the Human is especially evident in Luke, where it is said:
Mary said to the angel, How shall this come to pass, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing that is born of thee shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:34, 35).

From myself: My understanding of Luke 1:34-35. Jehovah God Himself became the soul of the child born to Mary.

And in Matthew:
The angel said to Joseph, the bridegroom of Mary, in a dream, that that which was begotten in her was of the Holy Spirit. And Joseph knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called His name Jesus (Matt. 1:20, 25).

It will be shown in the third chapter of this work that the Divine that goes forth from Jehovah God is what is meant by the Holy Spirit.

Who does not know that the offspring has its soul and life from the father, and that the body is from the soul?

Can anything, then, be more plainly declared than that the Lord had His soul and life from Jehovah God; and as the Divine cannot be divided, that the very Divine of the Father was His soul and life?

This is why the Lord so often called Jehovah God His Father, and why Jehovah God called Him His Son. Can there be anything, then, more absurd than to say that the soul of the Lord was from His mother Mary?

Harry

[GaKat]

Harry ~ Thank you for your kind and caring efforts to provide the Swedenborg references for my consideration to read for my own understanding.

I am familiar with the OT scriptures and the Messiah prophecies and the NT scriptures that many use to show how/why they believe Jesus fulfills them. I have considered your understanding of God and Jesus, however I continue to be stubborn and want to see evidences presented that will support the NT scriptures about Jesus to be the truth. Without evidences to support the NT scriptures about Jesus to be verifiable truth, in fairness to a right understanding of "what is truth" I think the correct way to present them would be as a "possibility" that Jesus might fulfill them instead of being presented as truth.

I cannot overlook the OT scriptures that establish a "sword prophecy" and the NT scriptures that support a reasonable "possibility" that Jesus fulfills it. I do not present the information that I offer to be a verifiable truth because I do not have evidences to support the scriptures. I can only present similarities/consistencies among the OT and NT scriptures that I understand do support a reasonable "possibility." However, it is my opinion that events that have happened since the supposed time of Jesus seem to better support the possibility that he fulfills the sword prophecy more than the possibility that he fulfills the Messiah prophecies.

There are many world religion's that have prophecies for a coming final representative of God. He has different names based on peoples' religions and languages such as Christ in Christian; Imam Mahdi in Shiite Muslim; Kalki in Hinduism; Maitreya/Metteya, the fifth/final Buddha in Buddhism; Messiah in Judaism; Saoshyant in Zoroastrianism; and True Man in Confucianism. Jesus called him the Comforter, the Spirit of truth. And Isaiah called him The mighty God, The everlasting Father. All of the religion's expect their representative of God to come.

When comparing the various religion's Messianic prophecies there are many noticeble similarities/consistencies among them. It is a strong reasonable possibility that the various religion's are expecting the same final representative. Please read and consider the following:

Whenever the Law declines and the purpose of life is forgotten, I am born to reestablish the Law (Hinduism: Bhagavad Gita 4.7-8). Jesus said, "I tell you the truth; ... when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment; ... he will guide you into all truth:" (Christianity: John 16.7-8, 13). He in the beginning, will be like a poor stranger unknown and uncared for. He will defend himself with supreme knowledge (Islam: Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 141 and 187). Now, where does such a man derive his knowledge, except from himself? (Confucianism: Doctrine of the Mean 31-32). He is a teacher of gods and men (Buddhism: Cakkavatti-Sihanada Suttanta). He will benefit everyone (Zoroastrianism: Avesta, Farvardin Yasht 13.129) and peace will be no end (Judaism: Isaiah 9.7).

Buddha stated in the Cakkavatti-Sihanada Suttanta that the final Buddha (true Messiah) will be fully Awakened. He is a teacher of gods and men. He, by himself, will thoroughly know and see the universe, the worlds, the creator God, and the devil.

Chinese's Confucianism, Doctrine of the Mean 31-32 stated "It is only he in this world, who has realized his absolute self, that can order and adjust the great relations of human society, fix the fundamental principles of morality, and understand the laws of growth and reproduction of the universe. Now, where does such a man derive his power and knowledge, except from himself?"

Islam's Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 141 and 187 stated "... He will protect and defend himself with resources of science and supreme knowledge. His control over these resources will be complete. He will know how supreme they are and how carefully they will have to be used."

Considering the similar/consistent profile of the various religions final representative, it is my understanding the coming Messiah will be a human man, and he will be enlightened by God with supreme knowledge and understanding of all truth's. The Messiah will be God's messenger and will teach us God's truth's. From the knowledge, all people will learn to live in peace and happiness. You might have noticed that miracle/magical powers are not mentioned in the various religions prophecies.

I have presented a few of the reasons why I do not believe Jesus is God and/or the Messiah. It is difficult for me to accept the NT scriptures as truth without evidences to support them to be truth. The final representative of God will know all truth, therefore it is reasonable to consider he will be able to adequately prove he is the rightful Messiah and also present evidences of God's truth's for all peoples benefit to understand and universally agree/accept. Provable truth is the best way to remove all doubts.

May God bless and guide you.

Kat

[okinrus]

God is one, but three persons. If the holy spirit was Jesus then why would Jesus say "When the Advocatet comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me." And in John 8:17, "Even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men can be verified. I testify on my behalf and so does the Father who sent me."

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. "so that they may all believe in me through the word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us" John 17:21

[OKHARRY]

Kat,
The Christians like yourself don't believe that God the Creator became Man. You believe that God has no form. In the Christian church they believe that there was trinity before creation and that God the Creator sent a Son from this man made trinity. All the Prophets thought of God has a Man. A visible God can be understood more easily than an invisible one. Today the Christians think of God as a cloud.

From Swedenborg's "True Christian Religion" 20

20. (2) God is Substance itself and Form itself and angels and men are substances and forms from Him, and so far as they are in Him and He in them are images and likenesses of Him.

As God is Esse He is also Substance. For unless Esse is substance it is a figment of the reason. For substance has subsistent being.

Moreover, one who is a substance is also a form. For unless a substance is a form it is a figment of the reason.

Wherefore both substance and form may be predicated of God, but in the sense that He is the only, the very, and the primal Substance and Form.

That this Form is the verily Human Form, that is, that God is verily Man, infinite in every respect, has been shown in Angelic Wisdom concerning the Divine Love and Divine Wisdom, published at Amsterdam in 1763; where it is also shown that angels and men are substances and forms created and organized for receiving what is Divine flowing into them through heaven.

For this reason they are called in the Book of Creation "images and likenesses of God" (Gen. 1:26, 27); and elsewhere "His sons," and "born of Him."

In the course of this work it will be fully shown that so far as man lives under Divine direction, that is, suffers himself to be led by God, so far he becomes an image of God more and more interiorly. Unless an idea is formed of God as the primal Substance and Form, and of His Form as the verily Human Form, the human mind may easily involve itself in spectral fancies about God Himself, the origin of man, and the creation of the world.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

To All,
In the Bible the word "God" means Truth. In the book of Genesis the word God is used, because Genesis means regeneration.

From Swedenborg's "Arcana Coelestia"

16. Verse 1. In the beginning God created the heavens [coelum] and the earth.

The most ancient time is called "the beginning." By the prophets it is in various places called the "days of old" [antiquitatis] and also the "days of eternity." The "beginning" also involves the first period when man is being regenerated, for he is then born anew, and receives life.

-Regeneration itself is therefore called a "new creation" of man. The expressions to "create" to "form" to "make" in almost all parts of the prophetic writings signify to regenerate, yet with a difference in the signification.

As in Isaiah:
Everyone that is called by My name, I have created him for My glory, I have formed him, yea, I have made him (Isa. 43:7).

And therefore the Lord is called the "Redeemer" the "Former from the womb" the "Maker" and also the "Creator;" as in the same Prophet:
I am Jehovah your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King (Isa. 43:15).

In David:
The people that is created shall praise Jah (Ps. 102:18).

Again:
Thou sendest forth Thy spirit, they are created, and Thou renewest the faces of the ground (Ps. 104:30).

That "heaven" signifies the internal man, and "earth" the external man.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by okinrus
God is one, but three persons. If the holy spirit was Jesus then why would Jesus say "When the Advocatet comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me." And in John 8:17, "Even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men can be verified. I testify on my behalf and so does the Father who sent me."

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. "so that they may all believe in me through the word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us" John 17:21

From the Father ,means, from Himself, because the Father is His soul."When the Advocatet comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me." And in John 8:17.

To sit at the right hand of God does not mean to sit at the right hand, like two persons sitting side by side.

The right hand of God, means Jehovah God's Divine Omnipotence through the Human that He assumed in the world.

By means of this He is in things last as well as in things first; by means of this He entered and overthrew and subjugated the hells; by means of this He restored order in the heavens; and thus by means of this He redeemed both men and angels, and will continue to redeem for ever. If you consult the Word, and are capable of enlightenment, you will perceive that 'right hand' means here Omnipotence.

As in Isaiah:
My hand hath founded the earth, and My right hand hath spanned the heavens (47:13).

Jehovah hath sworn by His right hand and by the arm of His strength (62:8).

Thy right hand doth hold Me up (Ps. 18:35).

Harry

[GaKat]

Harry ~ Thank you for your consideration to offer information from Swedenborg's True Christian Religion 20 and your understanding for my consideration. I appreciate your efforts and your kindness and care to help other's.

I worship the Almighty God and seek His truth's among many religion's texts and related sources but I do not adhere to any one particular religion's doctrine/beliefs. I am open-minded and fair to consider what I might learn from any of the available sources that provide information about God and/or the coming Messiah.

Religion titles are not important to me because I understand God is the God of all people. Religion beliefs/titles cause divisions among the people of this world and have caused much trouble, suffering, and deaths. This is very sad to me, and frustrating when I consider the many consistencies that exist among the various world religion's sacred writings. It is reasonable to consider that God provided for the consistencies to be among the religion's texts so that all people might seek and find them to better understand what might be considered "possible" truth's of God. The consistent possible truth's among the religion's could help people to end the divisions if they would consider them with an open-mind.

I've always believed there is a God even though I do not see Him. I am not able to offer a verifiable description of Him because there are no known evidences that will support a verifiable description of Who/What God is. Therefore, it is logical to consider that at best we can only offer a possible description of God, based on consistencies among the sacred writings. I prefer to wait for the time God chooses to enlighten all people with the verifiable truth of Who/What He is.

In August of 1999, I was inspired by some rather enlightening information on the internet to seek the truth's of God so I set aside my religion beliefs and with an open mind to what I might learn, I began seeking knowledge and a better understanding of God with all my heart and soul. The person that wrote the information suggests that truth should be simple to understand, even in religion texts. And I agree. He explains how truth should be supported by evidences and how to determine what is inconsistent and/or distorted. And he explains how similarities/consistencies in two or more reports might establish "possible" truth's, keeping in mind that anytime in the future, evidences may be found and presented to support a truth, whatever that may be. The gentleman's information inspired me to apply a right understanding of "what is truth" to all information that I read and consider. The most logical way for all people to understand and to have no doubts about "what is truth," is to present evidences that verify the truth.

Unless it is just a very strange coincidence, I think God might have provided a sign that would help me to understand that He exists and knows well what I am doing. The sign was a large distinct letter shape left in our two-story tall fig tree after a very severe thunderstorm. The letter shape is the first letter in a name that is significant to someone and to something that I was investigating at the time in the Bible. It is an ancient name that can be found in a Sanskrit Dictionary and it means "Almighty God/Storm God." I am not at liberty to reveal the name because someone revealed it to me in confidence. When the letter shape was arranged in the fig tree during the thunderstorm and I saw it afterwards, my first thought was of God.

Many good things have happened for me and my family since I began seeking a better understanding of God by applying a right understanding of "what is truth" to the knowledge that I consider.

May God bless and guide you.

Kat

[OKHARRY]

Kat,
Swedenborg had gone as far as he could go in attempting to explain the great questions of human existence solely through the faith into which he was born and which was reinforced by his own reasoning powers.

The results of his search left him dissatisfied, but a new phase of his life opened and the remaining years of his career must be viewed in a different perspective.

During 1744 and 1745 he had a number of dreams and visions which moved him profoundly.

He sometimes feared and sometimes felt exhilarated by what he experienced.

These were years of disquiet which he could not explain satisfactorily and, typically, he kept silent about them to others, although his Journal of Dreams and Journal of Travel written during this period recorded his experiences and emotions.

He renewed his study of the Bible and began to write a book entitled Worship and Love of God.

Then in April of 1745 he underwent a penetrating experience. In London, while dining alone at an inn where he often went, Swedenborg noted that the room seemed to grow dark.

He then saw a vision, and an apparition spoke to him. When the room cleared again Swedenborg went home to his apartment, considerably stirred by his experience.

During that night he again saw the vision. A spirit reappeared and spoke with him regarding the need for a human person to serve as the means by which God would further reveal himself to men in somewhat the manner of the biblical visions of the Old Testament."

Swedenborg came to believe that God had called him to bring a new revelation to the world, and from 1745 until his death twenty-seven years later he spent the bulk of his time adding theological works to his already lengthy scientific and philosophical writings.

Few transcendent experiences recorded in human history encompass such a sweeping claim.

From myself: Swedenborg, like myself believed that after confessing our sins to God they were gone for good, but that is not true. When a person confessing is sins to God the sins are put a side. It's up to the person not to bring them back.

The Lord gave a warning for those who go back to their sinfuil life after confessing their sins:
When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest, but finding none; then he saith to himself, I will return into my house from whence I went out; and when he comes and finds it empty, and swept, and garnished, then he goes away, and takes to himself seven other spirits worse than himself, and entering in they dwell there, and the latter things of the man become worse than the first (Matt. 12:43-45).

"The unclean spirit going out of a man," signifies the repentance of him who is in evil. His "walking through dry places and not finding rest" signifies that to such a person, a life of good is of that quality; "the house" into which he returned, and which he found empty, swept, and garnished, signifies the man himself, and his will, as being without good.

"The seven spirits" which he took to himself and with whom he returned, signify evil conjoined to good; "his state then being worse than his former," signifies profanation. This is the internal sense of these words, for the Lord spoke by correspondences.

The same thing is meant by the words of the Lord to the man whom He healed in the Pool of Bethesda:
Behold, thou art made whole; sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee (John 5:14).

Harry

[GaKat]

Harry ~ Thank you for providing the information about Swedenborg for my consideration. He sounds like a nice gentleman who had good intentions. It is good that he wanted to seek a better understanding of human existence. It is also good that he investigated his faith into which he was born.

If you can provide the information, I am open-minded to read more about his visions because of curiosity to know more about what the apparition said to him. Because of what is stated in Revelation 17:14 "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of the great day of God Almighty" I must question where the apparition Swedenborg saw comes from.

It is consistently written among various religion texts that God is the God of truth. I want to be a good servant of God, therefore I must be careful to have a right understanding of "what is truth."

You wrote, "From myself: Swedenborg, like myself believed that after confessing our sins to God they were gone for good, but that is not true. When a person confessing is sins to God the sins are put a side. It's up to the person not to bring them back."

I can agree with you both, it is up to an individual to remain good and not return to sin. However, I consider the possibility that a person might still be judged for the sins that were put aside. I consider that God will judge all people fairly and according to all the good and bad deeds we each have done in our life. It is reasonable to consider that acknowledging our sins to God is a good deed and it might help us to receive some mercy in His judgement of us.

May God bless and guide you.

Kat

[OKHARRY]

Kat,
From you: If you can provide the information, I am open-minded to read more about his visions because of curiosity to know more about what the apparition said to him. Because of what is stated in Revelation 17:14 "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of the great day of God Almighty" I must question where the apparition Swedenborg saw comes from.

From myself: I have no idea where the spirit who spoke to Swedenborg came from.

No angel and spirit has the power to come into our world unless God sents them.They can not send themselves.

All power is done by the Lord through the person, and angels and spirits are persons.

Swedenborg didn't question the spirit who spoke to him, because he know the spirit couldn't had sent himself into this world. He didn't come here on his own.

No satan and evil spirit has the power to come into this world, Only in Hollywood movies you see that junk.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

Kat,
God became Man, and Man became God in one Person. That Jehovah God became Man, and Man became God in one Person, follows as a conclusion from all the preceding propositions of this chapter, especially from these two:

That Jehovah the Creator of the universe descended and assumed a Human that He might redeem and save men, and that the Lord by the acts of redemption united Himself to the Father, and the Father united Himself to Him, thus reciprocally and mutually.

From myself: The Father uniting Himself to the Son, and the Son uniting Himself to the Father, means, the Soul and body of Jesus Christ,which is the Father and Son, became one Divine Person in the Lord. What is meant by the Father, when Jesus saided, "The Father and I are one, was His Soul. The soul and body make one person.

From myself: Jesus saided, "I come from God. This means the body or human comes from the soul.

The Father is greater than the I. this means, the soul is greater than the body since it directs it.

The Divine and the Human is the samething as the soul and body of Jesus Christ. The soul is of the Divine, and the body is of the Human

From Swedenborg:
From that reciprocal union it is very evident that God became Man and Man became God in one Person; and from the union of the two as being a union like that of soul and body, the same conclusion follows.

That this is in accordance with the faith of the church at this day, as derived from the Athanasian Creed, may be seen above; that it is also in accordance with the faith of the Evangelical churches may be seen in that chief of their orthodox books, called the Formula Concordi where it is firmly established, both from Sacred Scripture and from the Fathers, as also by rational arguments, that the human nature of Christ was exalted to Divine majesty, omnipotence and omnipresence, and that in Christ Man is God, and God is Man. Moreover, it has been shown in this present chapter that Jehovah God as to His Human is called in the Word "Jehovah," "Jehovah God," "Jehovah of Hosts," and "the God of Israel."

Therefore Paul says:
That in Jesus Christ dwelleth all the fullness of Divinity bodily (Col. 2:9).
In John:
That Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20).
That "the Son of God" means strictly Jehovah God's Human. Furthermore, Jehovah God calls both Himself and Him Lord.

For we read:
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at My right hand (Ps. 110:1).

In Isaiah:
For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; whose name is God, the Father of Eternity (9:6).

The Lord as to His Human is also meant by "the Son" in David:
I will declare the decree, Jehovah said unto me, Thou art My Son, this day I have begotten Thee. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way (Ps. 2:7, 12).

Here no Son from eternity is meant, but the Son born in the world. For this is a prophecy about the Lord who was to come, consequently it is called a "decree" which Jehovah declared to David; and in the same Psalm it is said previously:
I have anointed my King upon Zion (verse 6);
and further on:
I will give to Him the nations for an inheritance (verse 8).
Therefore "this day" does not mean from eternity, but in time. With Jehovah the future is present.

Harry

[GaKat]

Harry ~ Thank you for your consideration to offer your understanding of God, Jesus, Angels, Spirits, and Satan. In your replies you stated, "No angel and spirit has the power to come into our world unless God sents them.They can not sent themselves. All power is done by the Lord through the person, and angels and spirits are persons. No satan and evil spirit has the power to come into this world, Only in Hollywood movies you see that junk."

Scriptures about Satan from the book of Job and the Gospel of Matthew came to mind when I read your statement. Please read the following scriptures and consider the questions that follow.

Job 1:7 - And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:2 - And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Matt 4:8-9 - 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.


Why would God ask Satan from where/what place he come from (Job 1:7 & 2:2) if he (Satan) can only be sent to earth by God, as you stated? If God sent Satan to earth, then why does He ask Satan from whence he came?

In Matthew 4:8-9, Satan offers to give Jesus the glory of the kingdoms of the earth if he (Jesus) would fall down and worship him (Satan). If Jesus is God (as you understand) then why did he (Jesus/God?) send Satan to tempt Him (Jesus/God) in the wilderness? If Jesus is God, then it makes little sense that Satan would tempt Him and offer to give Him the glory of the kingdoms if He (God) would fall down and worship him (Satan). Satan is accountable to God. And according to the book of Job, Satan has been before God and has spoken to Him. Therefore it is reasonable to consider that Satan can recognize God and understands he is no match for God's power. If God chooses to do so, He has the power to destroy Satan. Do you agree?

When I apply your understanding that "Jesus is God" and "God has to send Satan to earth" to the scriptures that I provided, they become very confusing. Can you answer my questions to help me better understand?

May God bless and guide you.

Kat

[OKHARRY]

Kat,
From Swedenborg:
We may now illustrate by an example how from the natural sense in which is the Word with men, the spiritual angels draw forth their own sense, and the celestial angels theirs.

Take as an example five commandments of the Decalogue:
Honor thy father and thy mother. By "father and mother" a man understands his father and mother on earth, and all who stand in their place, and by to "honor" he understands to hold in honor and obey them.

But a spiritual angel understands the Lord by "father," and the church by "mother," and by to "honor" he understands to love.

A celestial angel understands the Lord's Divine love by "father," and His Divine wisdom by "mother," and by to "honor" to do what is good from him.

[2] Thou shalt not steal. By to "steal" a man understands to steal, defraud, or under any pretext take from his neighbor his goods.

A spiritual angel understands to deprive others of their truths of faith and goods of charity by means of falsities and evils.

A celestial angel understands to attribute to himself what is the Lord's, and to claim for himself His righteousness and merit.

[3] Thou shalt not commit adultery. By "committing adultery" a man understands to commit adultery and fornication, to do obscene things, speak lascivious words, and harbor filthy thoughts.

A spiritual angel understands to adulterate the goods of the Word, and falsify its truths.

A celestial angel understands to deny the Lord's Divinity and to profane the Word.

[4] Thou shalt not kill. By "killing," a man understands also bearing hatred, and desiring revenge even to the death.

A spiritual angel understands to act as a devil and destroy men's souls. And a celestial angel understands to bear hatred against the Lord, and against what is His.

[5] Thou shalt not bear false witness. By "bearing false witness" a man understands also to lie and defame. A spiritual angel understands to say and persuade that which is false is true and what is evil good, and the reverse. And a celestial angel understands to blaspheme the Lord and the Word.

[6] From these examples it may be seen how the spiritual and celestial of the Word are evolved and drawn out from the natural sense in which they are.

Wonderful to say, the angels draw out their senses without knowing what the man is thinking about, and yet the thoughts of the angels and of the men make a one by means of correspondences, like end, cause, and effect.

Moreover ends actually are in the celestial kingdom, causes in the spiritual kingdom, and effects in the natural kingdom.

This conjunction by means of correspondences is such from creation. This then is the source of man's association with angels by means of the Word.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

From Swedenborg:
That those who are in faith without good works are meant in the Word by "goats," shown from experience in the spiritual world.

In the spiritual world there appear all things that are in the natural world. There appear houses and palaces. There appear paradises and gardens, and in them trees of every kind.

There appear fields and meadowland, plains and grassy swards, flocks and herds, all precisely like those on our earth, there being no difference except that the latter are from a natural origin, while the former are from a spiritual origin.

And therefore angels, being spiritual, behold the things which are of spiritual origin, just as men do those of natural origin.

[2] All things that appear in the spiritual world are correspondences, for they correspond to the affections of the angels and spirits.

For this reason they who are in the love of what is good and true, and consequently in wisdom and intelligence, dwell in magnificent palaces that are surrounded by paradises full of correspondent trees, around which again are fields and plains with flocks lying there, and these are appearances.

With those however who are in evil affections there are correspondences of an opposite character.

Such are either in hells confined in workhouses that are windowless, and yet have light in them like that of a will-o'-the-wisp, or else they are in deserts and dwell in hovels surrounded by an unbroken barrenness where there are serpents, dragons, screech owls, and many other creatures that correspond to their evils.

[3] Between heaven and hell there is an intermediate place called the World of Spirits, into which every human being comes immediately after death, and where one person has interaction with another just as among men on earth.

Here too all things that appear are correspondences. Here too appear gardens, groves, forests of trees and shrubs, and flowery and grassy plains, together with beasts of various kinds, both gentle and savage, all in correspondence with the affections of those who dwell there.

[4] There have I often seen sheep and goats, and combats between them like that described in Dan. 8. I have seen goats with horns bent forward and bent backward, and I have seen them attack the sheep with fury.

I have seen goats with two great horns with which they violently struck the sheep. And when I looked to see what these things meant, I saw some who were disputing about charity and faith; and from this it was evident that faith separated from charity was what appeared as a goat, and that charity from which is faith was what appeared as a sheep.

And as I have seen such things often I have come to know with certainty that those who are in faith separated from charity are meant in the Word by "goats."

From myself: Martin Luther was warn by an angel not to accept faith without good works, and those who do this are meant by the goats in the Word. The Catholic Church is meant by Babylon in Revelation.

The first thing of charity is to look to the Lord and shun evil because they are sins. Without charity, faith is nothing.

Heaven is for those who had tried not to do evil because they are sins. The word "tried" means, if you fall you get yourself back up and try again with the Lord's help.

Heaven is not for those who believe the Lord will hand paradice down to them on a silver platter, without any efford on their part. Who foolishly believe that they go to heaven just by faith alone.

Those you are in faith alone fall into temptations easily. Like a church going whore who can't say NO.

When the women of Roman learn about Jesus, they accept Him because He was against them being treated like whores.

Harry

[GaKat]

Harry ~ I appreciate your kindness to offer the information perceived by Swedenborg. His perception of spiritual things is interesting but without evidences to support his perception of the Spiritual realm and/or his interpretations of the Bible to be truth, then I can only accept his information as an unverifiable perception/interpretation. I would be interested in seeing any evidences Swedenborg might have that will support his perceptions/interpretations.

It is my understanding that the coming Messianic representative will be the one who will enlighten all people worldwide with the truth's of God. And it is my firm understanding that "truth" conforms to fact and is supported by evidences that support a truth. So I will continue to wait and watch for a person who might claim to know the truth's of God and will offer evidences to support and prove his claim.

Please understand that it is verifiable "truth" that I thirst for to better understand God.

Have a safe and Happy 4th of July. May God bless and guide you.

Kat

[OKHARRY]

Concerning the nember seven in the Word.
Revelation 1:4. John to the seven churches, signifies to all who are in the Christian world where the Word is, and by it the Lord is known, and who draw near to the church.

By the "seven churches" are not meant seven churches, but all who are of the church in the Christian world.

For numbers, in the Word, signify things, and "seven," all things and all, and thence, also, what is full and perfect, and it occurs in the Word where anything holy is treated of, and in the opposite sense, of anything profane.

Consequently, this number involves what is holy, and, in the opposite sense, what is profane.

The reason why numbers signify things, or rather resemble certain adjectives to substantives adding some quality to the things, is, because number is, in itself, natural.

For natural things are determined by numbers, but spiritual things by things and their states.

Therefore, he who does not know the signification of numbers in the Word, and especially in Revelation, cannot know the many arcana which are contained therein.

Now, since "seven" signifies all things and all, it may appear that by the "seven churches" are meant all who are in the Christian world where the Word is, and by it the Lord is known.

These, if they live according to the Lord's precepts in the Word, make the church itself.

The Sabbath was instituted on the seventh day, and the seventh year was called the sabbatical year; and the seven times seventh year the Jubilee, by which was signified everything holy in the church: for this cause, also, a week, in Daniel, and elsewhere, signifies an entire period from beginning to end, and is predicated of the church. Similar things are signified by seven in the following passages, as by:
The seven golden lampstands, in the midst of which was the Son of Man (Rev. 1:13).
The seven stars in his right hand (Rev. 1:16, 20).
The seven spirits of God (Rev. 1:4; 4:5).
The seven lamps of fire (Rev. 4:5).
The seven angels, to whom were given seven trumpets (Rev. 8:2).
The seven angels having the seven last plagues (Rev. 15:5-6).
The seven vials full of the seven last plagues (Rev. 16:1; 21:9).
The seven seals with which the book was sealed (Rev. 5:1).

In like manner in the following places that:
Their hands should be filled seven days (Exod. 29:35).
They should be sanctified seven days (Exod. 29:37).
When they were consecrated they should go clothed in the garments of holiness seven days (Exod. 29:30).

They were not to go out of the door of the tent seven days, when they were initiated into the priesthood (Lev. 8:33, 35).
An atonement was to be made seven times upon the horns of the altar (Lev. 16:18-19).

The altar was to be sanctified with oil seven times (Lev. 8:11).
The blood was to be sprinkled seven times before the veil (Lev. 4:16-17).
And also seven times toward the east (Lev. 16:12-15.)
The water of separation was to be sprinkled seven times towards the tent (Num. 19:4).
The passover was celebrated seven days; and unleavened bread was eaten @seven days (Exod. 12:15; Deut. 16:4-7).

In like manner:
The Jews were to be punished @seven times more for their sins (Lev. 26:18, 21, 24, 28).
Wherefore David says:
Recompense unto our neighbor sevenfold into their bosom (Ps. 79:12).

Sevenfold is fully. Likewise in these places:
The sayings of Jehovah are pure sayings, silver purified in the furnace seven times (Ps. 12:6).

The hungry ceased, so that the barren hath borne seven, but she that hath many children lacketh (1 Sam. 2:5).

"The barren" is the church of the Gentiles, who had not the Word; "she that hath many children" is the church of the Jews, who had the Word.

She who had borne seven languisheth, she shall breathe out her soul (Jer. 15:9).

In like manner:
They that dwell in the cities of Israel shall set on fire and burn up the arms, and they shall kindle them with fire seven years: they shall bury Gog, and seven months shall they be cleansing the land (Ezek. 39:9, 11-12).

The unclean spirit will take with him seven other spirits worse than himself (Matt. 12:45).

Profanation is here described, and by "the seven spirits" with which he would return, are signified all the falsities of evil. The plenary extinction of good and truth.

By "the seven heads of the dragon," and "the seven diadems upon his heads" (Rev. 12:3), is signified the profanation of all good and truth.

From these things it is evident, that "seven" involves what is holy or profane, and signifies all and full.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

To All.
It is from this that by "three" in the Word in the spiritual sense is meant what is complete and perfect, and also the whole simultaneously.

And as this is the signification of the number three, it is employed in the Word whenever any such thing is marked out for notice.

As in the following passages:
Isaiah went naked and barefoot three years (Isa. 20:3).

Jehovah called Samuel three times, and Samuel ran three times to Eli, and Eli understood him the third time (1 Sam. 3:1-8).

David said to Jonathan that he would hide himself in the field three days; and Jonathan afterwards shot three arrows at the side of the stone; and after that David bowed himself down three times before Jonathan (1 Sam. 20:5, 12-41).

Elijah stretched himself three times over the widow's son (1 Kings 17:21).

Elijah commanded that they should pour water on the burnt-offering three times (1 Kings 18:34).

Jesus said, The kingdom of the heavens is like unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened (Matt. 13:33).

Jesus said unto Peter that he should deny Him thrice (Matt. 26:34).

The Lord said three times unto Peter, Lovest thou Me? (John 21:15-17).

Jonah was in the whale's belly three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17).

Jesus said, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up (John 2:19; Matt. 26:61).

Jesus prayed three times in Gethsemane (Matt. 26:39-44).

Jesus rose again on the third day (Matt. 28:1).

Besides many other passages where the number "three" is mentioned; and it is mentioned wherever a finished and perfect work is treated of, because this is signified by that number.

Harry

[Ya'nar#1]

Fulfilled prophecy is all the "proof" anyone should need to show that God DOES EXIST!

Just taking one example alone, look at the accuracy of the prophecy in Daniel 2. The statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, outlining the coming world empires: The head of gold was the Babylonian empire (Daniel 2:38); the breast and arms of silver, representing the divided kingdoms of the Medes and Persians which conquered Babylon (v. 39); the third kingdom, the belly and thighs of brass, representing the Macedonian rule under Alexander the Great (v. 39); and the fourth kingdom represented by the legs of iron was of course the pagan Roman empire (v. 40). The legs being divided represented both the Western and Eastern Roman Empires.

All of these empires are again represented in another vision given to Daniel near the close of his life in chapter 7. There the empires are represented by successive beasts, which display distinctive aspects which identify these empires. For example, in the statue, the head of gold was the Babylonian empire; gold being representative of the greatness of the kingdom. Following this was the Persian empire (silver), the Greeks (brass), then the Romans (iron), all these metals in decending value as time moves forward to our day.

If God doesn't exist, then how could any mere man, no matter how intelligent, be able to predict with such accuracy what would come to pass so far into the future?

Another example from Daniel's day was his account of precisely WHEN the Messiah would be born (Daniel 9:24). In fact, this prophecy was SO accurate that the Pharisees pronounced the book of Daniel a fraud, and told their people not to read or interpret it! They couldn't explain the accuracy of Daniel's visions.

Now, the truth is, that if you are someone who worships intellect more than you value the precious gift of salvation that Jesus Christ died to give you, then you will find your reward in this world. And that is a shame, because THIS world is so very short. What do we have here? Maybe 80 years if we are fortunate and have good genes. Compare that with a life lived in eternity, surrounded by beauty and grace we can't even DREAM of here in this dark world of chaos and death . . . Even if you're the richest person on earth, what would a measly 80 years compare with the glories of heaven for all eternity . . . ?

[OKHARRY]

There have been four churches on this earth from the day of its creation: the First, which is to be called the Adamic; the Second, the Noachian; the Third, the Israelitish; and the Fourth, the Christian. That four churches have existed on this earth since the creation of the world, manifestly appears in Daniel; first, from the statue seen by Nebuchadnezzar in a dream, and, afterwards, from the four beasts rising up out of the sea.

The four parts of the statue do not represents world empires.They represents four churches.


Concerning the statue of Nebuchadnezzar we read as follows:

Daniel said, Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great statue. And the appearance thereof was excellent, standing before thee, and the aspect thereof was terrible. The head of this statue was of good gold; its breast and arms, of silver; its belly and its thighs, of brass; its legs, of iron; its feet, partly of iron and partly of clay. Thou sawest until a stone was cut out, which was not by hands, and smote the statue upon its feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them in pieces. Then were the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; so that the wind carried them away, and no place was found for them: but the stone, which smote the statue, became a great rock, and filled the whole earth. In these days shall the God of the heavens raise up a kingdom, which shall not be destroyed to the ages; and His kingdom shall not be entrusted to another people: it shall break in pieces and consume all those kingdoms, but it shall stand to the ages (Dan. 2:31-35, 44).

From myself: Kingdom means God's church on earth and in heaven,therefore there were four churches. The first three churches were consummated, and gone.

These words saided by Daniel, " In these days shall the God of the heavens raise up a kingdom." This means a New Church will rice.

"In these days" means Jehovah God's advent into this world, in order to establish a New Church, not an new empire.

Jesus saided on the hour of His death that His Kingdom was not of this world.

From Swedenborg:
This dream did not signify four political kingdoms on this earth, but four churches, which should follow one after another, may be evident from the following considerations:

That such kingdoms, one after another, have not existed on this earth.

That the Divine Word, in its bosom, does not treat of the kingdoms of the world, but of churches, which constitute the kingdom of God on the earth.

Also, because it is said that the God of the heavens shall raise up a kingdom which shall not be destroyed to the ages, and that a stone, cut out, not by hands, became a great rock, which filled the whole earth.

And, because the Lord our Saviour Jesus Christ, in the Word of both Testaments, is called the "Stone" and "Rock," it is manifest that His kingdom is meant by the last words in this passage.

Moreover, the state of the church is described, in innumerable passages of the Word, by "gold," "silver," "brass," and "iron;" its spiritual state as to the good of love by "gold," its spiritual state as to the truth of wisdom by "silver," its natural state as to the good of charity by "brass," and its natural state as to the truth of faith by "iron," as may be seen confirmed from the Word in the Apocalypse Revealed, and elsewhere.

For this reason, the wise in the first ages, who knew the significations of metals, compared the ages, which were to follow one another from the first to the last, to those four metals, and called the first age "golden," the second age "silver," the third age "copper," and the fourth age "iron." They described them according to goods and truths.

Because genuine goods and truths are from no other origin than from the God of heaven, they described them according to the states of the church with those who lived in those ages.

For from these, and according to these, all the civil states of kingdoms as to justice and judgment exist, flourish and live.

Harry

[Darth Dane]

You are Jehovah our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name. Isa. 63:16.

God's name....

Exodus 3

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you


God's name is "I Am"

Can you say "I Am" without lying?

Am I one with God because I Am?

As God Is so I Am





DD - Love & Laughter

[OKHARRY]

God has many names. They all have different meanings.

The name God means "Truth" or "Wisdom"
The name Jehovah means "Love" or "Good"

The name God was used in the book of Genesis. Creation is not about the natural world, but about the regeneration man's soul by God. Creation means regeneration, born again.

This world was here million of year before Genesis was written.

Think about this: How did Cain find his wife? Where did Mrs Cain come from?

There were people living on this earth even as the book of Genesis was being written. Genesis is one of the five books written by Moses.

In Genesis: "Cain" means those who believe in faith without good works and charity.

"Able" means those who are in faith and Charity. Why was God pleased with Able's worship, but not with Cain's?

I know that the Protestant Church doesn't believe or accept good works and charity together with faith for salvation, therefore you are meant by Cain.

Harry

[Ya'nar#1]

Originally posted by OKHARRY
God has many names. They all have different meanings.

The name God means "Truth" or "Wisdom"
The name Jehovah means "Love" or "Good"

The name God was used in the book of Genesis. Creation is not about the natural world, but about the regeneration man's soul by God. Creation means regeneration, born again.

MY REPLY: That's re-creation.

This world was here million of year before Genesis was written.

MY REPLY: Then you don't believe God's inspired word in Genesis? You don't believe God inspired Moses? How do you think Moses was able to write in such detail about occurances that happened thousands of years before he was born? You think he was just making it all up as he went along? That's a pretty neat trick, if that is what you believe, especially when you consider that what you are suggesting is that it was pure fiction. Now why do you suppose, Harry, that God would send Moses as one of the two people to meet and talk with Jesus when he was transfigured in Gethsemane, if Moses pulled off this scam and none of it was truely inspired??? --Just something to ponder.

Think about this: How did Cain find his wife? Where did Mrs Cain come from?

MY REPLY: Mrs. Cain was obviously his sister. Remember, there weren't very many people around back then. Mankind, having just come from the hand of our Creator, was PERFECT. Even their genes were perfect, which meant that procreation was okay way back then. And of course, they did not grow up with the sorts of taboo notions we grew up with, and are quite valid for our day. By the time the law was given to Moses, sin had done its corrupting work, and God said there should be no sex between close relatives.

There were people living on this earth even as the book of Genesis was being written. Genesis is one of the five books written by Moses.

MY REPLY: And your point is?

In Genesis: "Cain" means those who believe in faith without good works and charity.

"Able" means those who are in faith and Charity. Why was God pleased with Able's worship, but not with Cain's?

MY REPLY: First, the offering had to be a BLOOD offering, and it had to be unblemished. Why? Because, just like with the Hebrews later on in Moses' day, the offering was to represent the death of the Son of God. It was to THIS that Cain and Abel (as well as Adam and Eve) were to look forward to,for the redemption of the race. This was a constant reminder to mankind that sin requires a blood sacrifice, to justify the sinner in the eyes of God. Abel brought a blood sacrifice; but Cain was rebellious in his heart, and brought the work of his hands as a sacrifice. And this same attitude is repeated all across the earth today. People want to believe they can get to heaven on their own merits, by their own works. Good works are the FRUIT of the life which has been buried in baptism and raised to the newness of life in Christ. But we cannot earn our salvation. This is the lie Satan has used to perpetuate paganism.

Harry, Jesus loves you. He came here and died because he wants you in heaven with Him. But it is only by faith that we are saved! The apostle Paul says, "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Romans 2:17

It is faith first, last, and always. Faith and only faith, that saves us. Here is something for you to ponder:

Works will not save us; but we will not be saved without good works.

It is the life of sanctification which we live AFTER we are saved that produces good works in the mature Christian.

Harry, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist. If you are looking for a church to attend where you will find God's truth IN ABUNDANCE, please consider mine. I've been to all kinds of Protestant churches in my life, but I settled on this one because it genuinely spoke to my heart.

May God's blessings be with you!

I know that the Protestant Church doesn't believe or accept good works and charity together with faith for salvation, therefore you are meant by Cain.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by Ya'nar#1



I was led out of the Catholic Church by the Lord in the year 1966, and led to Swedenborg's writings.

Paul meant the works of the Mosaic law, which were for the Jews, and not the works of the Decalogue.

It was the works of the Mosaic law the Christian is not under. The Protestant Church has it all wrong.

It is not written in Genesis that Cain had a sister. The Holy Bible is a book of correspondences. People, places and things in the Bible have spiritual meanings. A prophet signifies the Word.

"Adam and Eve" signifies man before being born again.

The Church I was led to by the Lord in the year 1966 it meant by the woman in Revelation 12

In the Bible the word "woman" means church.

When the Lord was on the cross He saided to John,"Behold your mother." He did not mean that Mary was now his mother. The Lord meant His Church was now his mother. Mary being a woman signifies the church. The Lord never called Mary "mother". He called her woman,three time in the Gospel, which means church.

Rev.12 Verse 1. "And a great sign was seen in heaven," signifies revelation from the Lord concerning His New Church in the heavens and on earth, and concerning the difficult reception of and resistance to its doctrine. "A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet," signifies the Lord's New Church in the heavens, which is the New Heaven, and the Lord's New Church about to be upon earth, which is the New Jerusalem. "And upon the head a crown of twelve stars," signifies its wisdom and intelligence from the knowledges of Divine good and Divine truth from the Word.

Verse 2. "And being with child, she cried travailing and pained to bring forth," signifies the doctrine of the New Church about to come forth, and its difficult reception on account of the resistance by those who are meant by the dragon,who are meant by the Reformed.

Verse 3. "And another sign was seen in heaven," signifies revelation from the Lord concerning those who are against the New Church and its doctrine. "And behold a great red dragon," signifies those in the Church of the Reformed who make God three and the Lord two, and who separate charity from faith, and make faith saving, and not charity at the same time. "Having seven heads," signifies insanity from the truths of the Word falsified and profaned. "And ten horns," signifies much power. "And upon his heads seven diadems," signifies all the truths of the Word falsified and profaned.

The creed of the New Church:
I believe in one God in whom is the Divine Trinity, and that God is the Saviour and Redeemer Jesus Christ. I believe that evil must be shun because they are sins against God. Good works must done because good is from God. I believe that man must do good as IF from himself, but it is the Lord who does goods in and through the person.

Jesus saided,"Without Me you can do nothing." Man cannot do good without the Lord.

Those who are against this Creed are meant by the dragon in Rev.12:3

In the Bible the word sheep means those who are in faith and charity, and the word goats means those who are in faith without charity. The Lord will say to the goats on the left, "Depart from Me."

Harry

[Ya'nar#1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OKHARRY
I was led out of the Catholic Church by the Lord in the year 1966, and led to Swedenborg's writings.

MY REPLY: You know, I suspected you were raised Catholic and were taught out of their catechism, but didn't want to point any fingers.

Paul meant the works of the Mosaic law, which were for the Jews, and not the works of the Decalogue.

MY REPLY: Absolutely right, Harry!

It was the works of the Mosaic law the Christian is not under. The Protestant Church has it all wrong.

MY REPLY: Well, let's not be too dogmatic on that. There are some Protestant churches that believe the Ten Commandments are still valid. It's primarily the Fundamentalist Christian churches which have it wrong. They believe that refusing to obey God's laws means living the life of faith--which we know is total nonsense. All you have to do is read James 1 and 2 to see that.

It is not written in Genesis that Cain had a sister. The Holy Bible is a book of correspondences. People, places and things in the Bible have spiritual meanings. A prophet signifies the Word.

MY REPLY: You're right, there is no mention of a sister in Genesis with which Cain married and then produced offspring. However, if you believe the Biblical account (which is quite brief), then by process of elimination you must conclude that he married the only female available to him, which had to be a sister. Now Moses wrote this long after, and as was the custom, mostly only men were listed in the tales of the great men of old. Women were sometimes listed, but usually as mothers, and sometimes not even then. It is not unreasonable to assume Eve had many children, some of which were girls.

"Adam and Eve" signifies man before being born again.

MY REPLY: I'm sorry. I'm not following you here.

The Church I was led to by the Lord in the year 1966 it meant by the woman in Revelation 12

MY REPLY: I, too, believe the "woman" in Revelation means church. A pure woman, as in Rev. 12 represents a pure church; an apostate woman (Rev. 17 & 18) represents a corrupt church.
In the Bible the word "woman" means church.

When the Lord was on the cross He saided to John,"Behold your mother." He did not mean that Mary was now his mother. The Lord meant His Church was now his mother. Mary being a woman signifies the church. The Lord never called Mary "mother". He called her woman,three time in the Gospel, which means church.

MY REPLY: Nevertheless, Mary WAS Jesus' mother. Jesus showed tender regard for His mother when He left her in John's keeping. This showed He was obedient to the commandment, "Honor your father and your mother," words He himself spoke on Sinai.

QUOTE]

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by Ya'nar#1
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OKHARRY
I was led out of the Catholic Church by the Lord in the year 1966, and led to Swedenborg's writings.

MY REPLY: You know, I suspected you were raised Catholic and were taught out of their catechism, but didn't want to point any fingers.

Paul meant the works of the Mosaic law, which were for the Jews, and not the works of the Decalogue.

MY REPLY: Absolutely right, Harry!

It was the works of the Mosaic law the Christian is not under. The Protestant Church has it all wrong.

MY REPLY: Well, let's not be too dogmatic on that. There are some Protestant churches that believe the Ten Commandments are still valid. It's primarily the Fundamentalist Christian churches which have it wrong. They believe that refusing to obey God's laws means living the life of faith--which we know is total nonsense. All you have to do is read James 1 and 2 to see that.

It is not written in Genesis that Cain had a sister. The Holy Bible is a book of correspondences. People, places and things in the Bible have spiritual meanings. A prophet signifies the Word.

MY REPLY: You're right, there is no mention of a sister in Genesis with which Cain married and then produced offspring. However, if you believe the Biblical account (which is quite brief), then by process of elimination you must conclude that he married the only female available to him, which had to be a sister. Now Moses wrote this long after, and as was the custom, mostly only men were listed in the tales of the great men of old. Women were sometimes listed, but usually as mothers, and sometimes not even then. It is not unreasonable to assume Eve had many children, some of which were girls.

"Adam and Eve" signifies man before being born again.

MY REPLY: I'm sorry. I'm not following you here.

The Church I was led to by the Lord in the year 1966 it meant by the woman in Revelation 12

MY REPLY: I, too, believe the "woman" in Revelation means church. A pure woman, as in Rev. 12 represents a pure church; an apostate woman (Rev. 17 & 18) represents a corrupt church.
In the Bible the word "woman" means church.

When the Lord was on the cross He saided to John,"Behold your mother." He did not mean that Mary was now his mother. The Lord meant His Church was now his mother. Mary being a woman signifies the church. The Lord never called Mary "mother". He called her woman,three time in the Gospel, which means church.

MY REPLY: Nevertheless, Mary WAS Jesus' mother. Jesus showed tender regard for His mother when He left her in John's keeping. This showed He was obedient to the commandment, "Honor your father and your mother," words He himself spoke on Sinai.

QUOTE]

I never study the Catholic Catechism. That's why the Lord led me out of that church.

I was place in a catholic home in Long Island NY at the young age of six years old.

My mother place me,my two brothers and two sisters in different catholic homes,because we were poor.

I choose the Lord over my mother in the home, because of her placing me there, but instead of me hateing her and acting like devil everytime she came up to see me, I show love and affection towards her.

In the home I was never taught the trinity of three persons. All my worship was towards Our Lord Jesus Christ only, and continue until I was led out of the Catholic Church in the 1966, when I learn that the Divine Trinity was in Our Lord Jesus Christ, and that the Father and He are one as soul and body in Jesus Christ.

The Father is not a person because no one as seen Him. Moses want to see God, but was tolded that no one can look upon God and live.

John:
No one hath seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath manifested Him (1:20).

In the same:
Ye have never head the voice of the Father, nor seen His shape (5:37).

In Matthew:
No one knoweth the @Father but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal Him (11:27).

And in John:
I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one cometh to the Father but by Me (14:6).

The reason why no one can be conjoined to God but in the Lord, is because the Father is in Him, and they are one, as He also teaches in John:
If ye know Me, ye know My Father also; He who seeth Me seeth the Father; Philip, believest thou not that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me (John 14:7-11).

From myself: This means the Father is the Son, and the Son is the Father,as to be one Divine Person, not two.

In Jesus Christ the Divine (Father) and the Human (Son) are not two,but one Person.

And in the same:
The Father and I are One; that ye may know and believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me (John 10:30, 38).

Harry

[Ya'nar#1]

So sorry to hear about the sad tragedy in your childhood. But your mother must have loved you to come see you when she did. Sometimes circumstances overwhelm a mother, and she must do what is best for her children, even if it isn't what she wants to do. You know?

Anyway, since you have such an interest in the relationship of Father and Son, I have a nice little story to tell you:

About 8 months ago our Lord gave me a dream. It was a vision of Him in heaven. His throne looked like the ark of the covenant, where Moses put the Ten Commandments. I was there too, except I was standing far back, spellbound by what I saw. It was magnificent, Harry!

The first sensation I experienced in the vision was joy -- pure joy. The Father was seated on the golden mercy seat, but of course I couldn't see Him because the brightness of His glorious presense shone out in every direction, all around. It was breathtaking!

It was just Him, and me. I felt such a rush of warmth and love coming from Him that I was almost overcome by it. Then, just as suddenly, I became aware of His holiness; and at that moment I experienced what I believe Isaiah must have felt, an uncleanness compared to such unfathomable love and holiness, all in One. And before I could even frame the thought in my mind, I sensed myself shrink, shrink away from Him, though I hadn't actually moved at all, and I realized He was giving me a sense of the vast comparison between His holiness . . . and our uncleanness, our very real need of Him.

Now here is the reason why our Lord gave me this dream: When I was six years old, I saw the movie the Ten Commandments. I was absolutely TERRIFIED of the God that thundered in flame from the pillar of fire as He wrote His ten laws on the stone tablets. Since then, I fell in love with Jesus as my Saviour, but still harbored some deep fear of the Father that I wasn't even aware of.

Giving me this dream was His way of letting me F-E-E-L and experience just who He is; that there isn't anything to be afraid of! God IS love. I know that now. Wherever the light of His presence touches, life springs up spontaneously. It can't help it. When Jesus was entering Jerusalem, He said if the crowds had not been there to welcome Him, the very rocks would cry out. Until this dream, I never understood what He meant by that. But now I do. Being in the presence of the Life-giver, of true, pure love combined with pure perfection is an altogether humbling yet joy-filled experience which no words can adequately describe. But the overall assurance of His everlasting love for us, and His intentions of peace towards us, faulty as we are, is something I will never forget . . .

[OKHARRY]

Invitation to the New Church

There is no true church unless God is One, and unless He is Jehovah God under a human form--and thus that God is man and man God.

The doctrinals contained in True Christian Religion agree with the doctrinals of those of the Roman Catholic Church, and with the doctrinals of those of the Protestants, who acknowledge a personal union in Christ, and approach Christ, and who partake of the two elements in the Eucharist.

Various causes why now, for the first time, and not before, the above truths of the church.

Among these causes is this, that the New Church is not established before before false ideas are gone from the former church,and is consummated.

The Divine Providence in these matters:
From the heresies which arose after the time of the Apostles.
Why the Romish Church arose.

The causes of the separation from that Church, an unworthy mother.

Why the Greek Church separated from the Romish.
Various things concerning miracles; that they have destroyed the church (also from the Lord's words in Matt. 24).

That all things tended in this direction, that men who were called saints were to be invoked.

This Church is not instituted and established through miracles, but through the revelation of the spiritual sense of the Word.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

To All,
Invitation to the New Church

There is no true church unless God is One, and unless He is Jehovah God under a human form--and that God is man and man God.

The doctrinals contained in True Christian Religion agree with the doctrinals of those of the Roman Catholic Church, and with the doctrinals of those of the Protestants, who acknowledge a personal union in Christ, and approach Christ, and who partake of the two elements in the Eucharist.

Various causes why now, for the first time, and not before, the above truths of the church.

Among these causes is this, that the New Church is not established before before false ideas are gone from the former church,and is consummated.

The Divine Providence in these matters:
From the heresies which arose after the time of the Apostles.
Why the Romish Church arose.

The causes of the separation from that Church, an unworthy mother.

Why the Greek Church separated from the Romish.
Various things concerning miracles; that they have destroyed the church (also from the Lord's words in Matt. 24).

That all things tended in this direction, that men who were called saints were to be invoked.

This Church is not instituted and established through miracles, but through the revelation of the spiritual sense of the Word.

Harry

[freelight]

Originally posted by OKHARRY
To All,
Invitation to the New Church

There is no true church unless God is One, and unless He is Jehovah God under a human form--and that God is man and man God.


This Church is not instituted and established through miracles, but through the revelation of the spiritual sense of the Word.

Harry



)===========Greetings Harry :) ,..................I read at least 1 or 2 books from Swedenborg in my earlier years of truth-seeking. He does have some interesting views relative to his 'spiritual sense' and perspectives gleaned from his contact with the spiritual world and its inhabitants.

I agree with some aspects of His understanding of Deity relative to the Trinity and the relationship between the Father and the Son.
I hold to primally and preeminently the Oneness of God and His divine Unity of Being.

Assuming this is Swedenborg -

"There is no true church unless God is One, and unless He is Jehovah God under a human form--and that God is man and man God. "

)========= Perhaps you can share 'your' understanding of this statement - 'that God is man and man God'.

Swedenborg -

"This Church is not instituted and established through miracles, but through the revelation of the spiritual sense of the Word."


)========= While I believe in miracles.....I can agree also with this leaning towards gnostic revelation as being the revelational outpourring of knowledge thru spiritual enlightenment and progressive understanding(light).

My own understanding of Deity is that YHWH is ONE. This is first, primal, essential, eternally so. Further conceptualizations, trinitizations of Deity are formed by intellectualizing and are not necessarily detrimental...sometimes helpful......but may affect the comprehension of God and His primal Unity of Being - God Being and representing One Divine Person......from which all other personalities have their base and origin.

Swedenborgs theosophy blends internal sense and external sense amid a plethora of allegory and metaphors. Helpful in some senses......however one must be familiar with the meanings of his terms and semantical stylings.

Lets start with my first inquiry - How is God man and man God in the revlation of Jesus Christ?


paul

[OKHARRY]

Paul,
There are many reasons why God could redeem men, that is, could deliver them from damnation and hell, only by means of an assumed Human.

Redemption consisted in subjugating the hells, restoring the heavens to order, and after this reestablishing A New Church; and this redemption God with His omnipotence could effect only by means of the Human.

It is only by means of an arm that one can work-in the Word (Isa. 40:10; 53:1) this Human of the Lord is called "the arm of Jehovah"-or as one can attack a fortified town and destroy the temples of idols therein only by means of intervening agencies.

That it was by means of His Human that God had omnipotence in this Divine work, is also evident from the Word. For in no other way would it be possible for God who is in the inmost and thus in the purest things, to pass over to outmost things, in which the hells are, and in which the men of that time were, just as the soul can do nothing without a body, or as no one can conquer an enemy without coming in sight of him, or approaching and getting near to him with proper equipments, such as spears, shields, or muskets.

It was as impossible for God to effect redemption without the Human as it would be for men to conquer the Indies without transporting soldiers there by means of ships, or as it would be to make trees grow by heat and light if the air through which these pass, or the soil from which the trees spring, had never been created; as impossible, in fact, as to catch fish by spreading nets in the air instead of in the water.

For it is impossible for Jehovah, such as He is in Himself, by His omnipotence to get in contact with any devil in hell or any devil upon the earth, and restrain him and his fury and tame his violence, unless He be in things last as He is in things first. Because He is in things last in His Human, He is called in the Word "the First and the Last," "the Alpha and the Omega," "the Beginning and the End."

Harry

[OKHARRY]

God is Man can scarcely be comprehended by those who judge all things from the sense-experiences of the external man.

For the sensual man can think of the Divine only from the world and the things that are therein, thus of a Divine and Spiritual Man in the same way as of a corporeal and natural man.

From this he concludes that, if God were a man He would be as large as the universe, and if He ruled heaven and earth it would be done through many, after the manner of kings in the world.

If told that in heaven there is no extension of space as in the world, he would not in the least comprehend.

For he who thinks from nature and its light only, never thinks otherwise than from an extension such as there is before his eyes. But they are completely deceived when they think in this way about heaven.

The extension there is not like extension in the world. In the world, extension is determinate and thus measurable, but in heaven it is not determinate and therefore not measurable.

What, however, extension in heaven is, will be seen in the pages to follow in connection with space and time in the spiritual world.

Besides, everyone knows how far the sight of the eye extends, namely, to the sun and stars which are so remote.

Whoever thinks more deeply knows that the internal sight, which is that of thought, has a still wider extension and therefore that a still more interior sight must extend even more widely.

What, then, must not the Divine sight be which is the inmost and highest of all?

Because thoughts are capable of such extension (understanding), all things of heaven are communicated with everyone there, so too are all things of the Divine which makes heaven and fills it-as has been shown in the preceding sections.

From myself: The only way we are able to understand God is by Him becoming a man. By Him taken on a Human Form. God is a spirit, because spirit means truth, but He is also a Man, not just a spirit.

Harry

[attention]

God has no objective existence

[OKHARRY]

Here's proof: By the Word of Jehovah were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the Spirit of His mouth (Ps. 33:6). Answer that one.

Harry :)

[attention]

Originally posted by OKHARRY
Here's proof: By the Word of Jehovah were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the Spirit of His mouth (Ps. 33:6). Answer that one.

Harry :)

The "heavens" or the objective material world itself can not have been "created", but have existed in one form or another at all time.

Proof:

Suppose that anything that exists, or theoretically can exists, would not exist.

What would exist?

Nothing

What would happen?

Nothing

Hence, this is not an explenation that the world itself exists.

Since there is a material objective world, and it could not have started from or in nothing, neither end in nothing, it must mean that the objective material world has existed always.
Nothing is not a begin or end. Nothing is only nothing.

Conclusion: the objective material world must have existed always.

Ergo:

God can not have created the world, since there has not been a time in which there was no world. God is therefore not in any way necessary for the world itself to exist. But if God is not the necessary being, then God does not exist.

[OKHARRY]

The "heavens" or the objective material world itself can not have been "created", but have existed in one form or another at all time.

Proof:

Suppose that anything that exists, or theoretically can exists, would not exist.

What would exist?

Nothing

What would happen?

Nothing

Hence, this is not an explenation that the world itself exists.

Since there is a material objective world, and it could not have started from or in nothing, neither end in nothing, it must mean that the objective material world has existed always.
Nothing is not a begin or end. Nothing is only nothing.

Conclusion: the objective material world must have existed always.

Ergo:

God can not have created the world, since there has not been a time in which there was no world. God is therefore not in any way necessary for the world itself to exist. But if God is not the necessary being, then God does not exist.

From myself:

There is a God, but not the way the Catholic and Protestant Church explains it. You should read Swedenborg's writings. The story of Adam and Eve is a representation of the first church on earth.

In the beginning God created heaven and earth. In Genesis the word heaven means the internal or inner part of man, which is his thoughts and affections, the person's soul.

The earth means the person's external,and it is that which obeys the internal. The six days of creation is really about the regeneration of man's soul made new.rebirth, born again, a new spirit.

This world was here billions of year before Adam and Eve. They were not the only people alive on earth at that time.

Cain's wife, where did she come from? All things living or not living in this world are correspondence or representation of the spiritual world. Some correspondence to heaven and some to hell.

God created all things out of Divine Love, by means of Divine Wisdom. Wisdon, truth, understanding and faith are the same.

Faith without understanding is no faith, because it is a faith of a blind person, a person who doesn't understand what the Word is telling them. They are told to believe even if they don't understand.

Harry

[attention]

Harry:

You resort on too much fabulous stories.

I am not in the least interested what your mindly interpretation says or not says.

We are just considered here with the objective world itself.

No God.

Got it?

[OKHARRY]

Attention
Whoever does not acknowledge God is excommunicated from the church and condemned. Whoever does not acknowledge a God is excommunicated from the church, because God is the all of the church; and Divine things which are called theological are what constitute the church.

Consequently a denial of God is a denial of all things pertaining to the church.This denial is what excommunicates the man.He is excommunicated not by God, but by himself.

The man stands condemned because he who is excommunicated from the church is also excommunicated from heaven, since the church on earth and the angelic heaven make one, like the internal and the external or the spiritual and the natural in man.

Man was so created by God that in respect to his internal mind he might be in the spiritual world and in respect to his external in the natural world.

Man was created a native of both worlds, in order that the spiritual which belongs to heaven might be implanted in the natural, which belongs to the world, just as seed is planted in the ground; and that man might become fixed and endure to eternity.

The man who has excommunicated himself from the church and from heaven by a denial of God has closed up in himself his internal man in respect to his will and its genial love.

For man's will is the receptacle of his love, and becomes its dwelling-place. But he cannot close up his internal man in respect to its understanding, for if he could and did he would be man no longer.

Nevertheless, his will's love infatuates with falsities the higher faculties of the understanding; and in consequence the understanding becomes closed to the truths pertaining to faith and the goods pertaining to charity, more and more against God, and also against the spiritual writings of the Word.

The man is shut out from communion with the angels of heaven, and when so shut out he enters into communion with the satans of hell, and thinks as they think.

All satans deny God, and think foolishly about Him and the spiritual truth of the church, and in the same way does the man think who is conjoined with them.

When such a man is in his spirit, as he is when left privately to himself, he suffers his thoughts to be led by the delights of evil and falsity which he has conceived and brought forth in himself.

He thinks that God has no existence, but is merely a word uttered from the pulpit to hold the common people in obedience to the laws of justice, which are, the laws of society.

He also thinks the Word, from which ministers proclaim a God, to be a mass of missionary tales, which have been made holy by authority, and the Decalogue or catechism to be merely a little book to be thrown aside when it has been well worn by the hands of little boys, since it teaches that parents ought to be honored, forbids murder, adultery, theft, and false witness; and who does not learn the same things from civil law?

He thinks of the church as an assembly of simple, credulous, and weak-minded people, who see what they see not.

He thinks of man, and of himself as a man, as being like a beast, and of life after death as of the life of a beast after death.

His internal man think, however differently his external man may speak. For, as just said, every man has an internal and an external.

It is the internal (mind) that makes the man, that is, the spirit, which is what lives after death, while the external, in which by a semblance of morality he plays the hypocrite, is laid in the grave; and on account of his denial of God the man then stands condemned.

In respect to his spirit every man is associated in the spiritual world with his like, and becomes as one of them. He becomes what he made himself into.

You say you want proof that God exist. Here my question "Did you love you mother, the woman who gave birth to you? If you did, Prove it.

Harry

[attention]

Originally posted by OKHARRY
You say you want proof that God exist. Here my question "Did you love you mother, the woman who gave birth to you? If you did, Prove it.


I never said that I as a person want a proof of God.
I can reason things out myself, and to my knowledge the entity named God, has no objective existence. That is why there can't be a proof of God. God is an entity in and of the mind. As such it has existence, confined to the mind itself, but not outside of that.

For the rest: the world can stand on itself, without the help of any deity, cause it rests on matter. And matter is the most consistent thing there is, it is independend of anything else, and neither did it have a begin or end.

I think further, regarded from your post, that you have a total misconception of my point of worldview. And you have a misconception of materialism, science and atheism in general.
Since they don't accept your woldview, you think they are disobedience or whatever.

But we see the world like it is, and now what we want it to be.
I have never visited any church (only perhaps went into a church as visitor) and any religion could not fit my point of view.

If you can understand why we current humans don't believe any more in Apolle, Zeus and Wodan, neither the old Spirits of Nature, you can also understand why we don't accept the Christian God or the God of Islam.

Simply because they are human inventions and don't denote real entities (existing outside the mind) and are reliquis of ancient superstitous beliefs.

We live in the world of science and in another soceity as 2000 years ago.

There is no more place for such deities.

Life can be as good, even better, without such absurd beings.

I feel quite happy without a belief. Nobody is gonna convince me otherwise. And threats won't help, since I don't believe any of them.

I am sorry. But that is what my conviction is. You better accept that as a fact.

[attention]

Ok Harry:

And just to clarify things... I am not to be seen as someone who "opposes" religion as such (although I can name some facts why one in fact should oppose certain religions and acts of religious people). Just that religion is not my worldview, since I adapted a more modern worldview, that of materialism.

I don't "oppose" religion, in the same way as I don't oppose primitive human society, or antique slaveholders society, or ancient spirits of nature or Wodan, or Zeus or Apollo.

These to me denote just ancient forms of human civilization and ancient form of human thought.

They lost their meaning in the current world.

Human thought, human socieity DID change. It will be difficult to keep up old religious thoughts. They are not the outlook of modern humans.

It's not that I think this stage of human development was entirely useless, but we are past that stage of thought. We know how to rationaly approach the world, without the need for assuming dieties account for anything that happened. The open vision of science will give us plenty of knowledge about the world. We are wise enough to deal with the world in the right way.

Why should we still see the world like the people 2000 years ago did?
What is the meaning of that? The world changes and so does our knowledge and outlook on the world.

I think it is important for you and other believers to adapt yourselves to the world and the current outlook on reality.


PS.

In the time of the Bible, it was normal in many countries to have slaves (Greece, Roman empire). Also women did not have any rights at that time. Should we still adapt to such values also today???

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by attention
Human thought, human socieity DID change. It will be difficult to keep up old religious thoughts. They are not the outlook of modern humans.

The majority of people in the world today are still religious.

It's not that I think this stage of human development was entirely useless, but we are past that stage of thought. We know how to rationaly approach the world, without the need for assuming dieties account for anything that happened.

That's what the pagans thought. This has never been a Christian belief.

I think it is important for you and other believers to adapt yourselves to the world and the current outlook on reality.

Why don't you just say what you really mean -- that we should reject God?

[OKHARRY]

The one God is called Jehovah from Esse, that is, because He alone Is, Was, and Is To Be, and because He is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega.

It is known that "Jehovah" signifies I Am and To Be [Esse]; and that God has been so called from the most ancient times is clear from the Book of Creation, or Genesis, where in the first chapter He is called "God," and in the second and subsequent chapters "Jehovah God," and afterwards, when the children of Abraham through Jacob, during their long sojourn in Egypt, forgot the name of God, it was recalled to their remembrance; of which as follows:
Moses said unto God, What is Thy name? God said unto Moses, I am who I Am, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent Me unto you; and thou shalt say, Jehovah God of your fathers hath sent Me unto you: this is My name to eternity, and this is My memorial from generation to generation (Exod. 3:13-15).

Since God alone is the I Am and Esse, or Jehovah, nothing can exist in the created universe that does not derive its esse from Him; but how will be seen below.

The words:
I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega (Isa. 44:6: Rev. 1:8, 11; 22:13),
have the same meaning, signifying, Who is the Itself and the Only from things first to things last, the source of all things.

God is called "the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," because Alpha is the first letter in the Greek alphabet and Omega the last; and therefore the two signify all things in the complex.

This is because each letter in the alphabet in the spiritual world signifies something. And as the vowels furnish the tone, they signify something belonging to affection or love.

This is the origin both of spiritual or angelic speech and of writing there. But it is an arcanum unknown; for there is a universal language which is the language of all angels and spirits, and which has nothing in common with any language of men in the world.

Harry

[heusdens]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
The majority of people in the world today are still religious.


Which wasn't my statement, the statement was that human thought itself evolved. We aren't that superstitious any more as 2000 years ago.

For example: nobody would be able to raise a new world religion today. People claiming miracles would be thoroughly criticized, and the general point of view would meet such claims with skepticism.

The current religions are ideas from the past.


Why don't you just say what you really mean -- that we should reject God?

We should reject ideas as absolute as that, I do think that yes.
We as humans don't have absolute knowledge, and no-one can claim to have absolute knowledge. Which doesn't mean all knowledge fits equally well with reality.

Neither does it mean that morals would not have any meaning, but they would have to be based on a real understanding of the world.

I think the common prejudice of theists is that EITHER there are absolute values, OR everything is meaningless.

That happens not to be the case. Atheists happen to have no lesser morals as theists.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by heusdens
Which wasn't my statement, the statement was that human thought itself evolved. We aren't that superstitious any more as 2000 years ago.
No, but we're more easily influenced, and listen to our televisions more than our own family. Trust is easily gained, easily lost and easily manipulated today. I wouldn't consider that a "forward evolution."

For example: nobody would be able to raise a new world religion today. People claiming miracles would be thoroughly criticized, and the general point of view would meet such claims with skepticism.
See: Scientology, New Age, Seventh-Day Adventists, Mormonism. All founded recently.

The current religions are ideas from the past.
I'm going to assume that was just a really ignorant comment and move on.

We should reject ideas as absolute as that, I do think that yes.
So, you're denying the fact that 1+1 equals 2? Is that idea wrong because it is accepted as a universal absolute? Is the idea restricted to the medium it is conveyed in? Is the idea defined by the one who comes up with it? Or is truth exclusive and you seem to think no one can hold it?

I think the common prejudice of theists is that EITHER there are absolute values, OR everything is meaningless.
Common predjudice of non-theists: There is no need for objective morality, because all morality is relevant to the society it is in. Nevermind the complete lack of cultures that consider selfishness a good trait.

Shaun
same old, same old arguments.
they must be ideas from the past.

[Aimiel]

Some people pray to the aliens. Many worship J-Lo. Every day, someone new starts his own new religion: that of a self-made man worshipping "his creator." I belive that the Anti-Christ will start a new religion, based on his 'version' of The Truth.

[attention]

Originally posted by Shaun
No, but we're more easily influenced, and listen to our televisions more than our own family. Trust is easily gained, easily lost and easily manipulated today. I wouldn't consider that a "forward evolution."


The technique itself is a step forward. You can use television to educate people. But it depends in which hands it is, who controls it, then it can be used to manipulate people. Like we are all being manipulated about the world affairs, we were all manipulated in having to belief the story of the weapons-of-mass-destruction of Iraq, etc.
Likewise, advertisers exploit consumers in their ease of believing things. As long as you can tell a lie and repeat it daily, there will be people that actually believe that lie.

There are people out there that have opportunity to manipulate us, and can go on telling lies everyday.

That is the real problem.



See: Scientology, New Age, Seventh-Day Adventists, Mormonism. All founded recently. I'm going to assume that was just a really ignorant comment and move on.


These "religions" are not much more then old wine in new bottles.
The content is still the same.


So, you're denying the fact that 1+1 equals 2? Is that idea wrong because it is accepted as a universal absolute? Is the idea restricted to the medium it is conveyed in? Is the idea defined by the one who comes up with it? Or is truth exclusive and you seem to think no one can hold it?


What has "1+2=2" to do with a belief in God? Does it point to any God? And which God would it point to? The Jewish God, the Christian God, the Islam God, the Hinduist God?


Common predjudice of non-theists: There is no need for objective morality, because all morality is relevant to the society it is in. Nevermind the complete lack of cultures that consider selfishness a good trait.


That what is moral good or bad is not universal. Slavery was not always a moral bad thing. So our moral conscience is developing, I would say. It develops with consciousness, and consciousness developes with societal progress.

[tenkeeper]

aimiel,

the anti-christ, or the wicked leader to come,
in our lifetime, is going to be coupled with
the very ancient religion started in babylon.

[Aimiel]

It is because all dis-obedience stems from the first lie: "You shall not surely die."

[Dave Miller]

Barthian reply:

If anyone were to take the time to tally all of the Biblical names and
references to God, one would find that they can be pretty much
classified int 2 categories: 1. Transcendent God, God who is beyond
our understanding, and 2. Immanent God, God who is up close
and personal, God who is with us.

God beyond our understanding is to be feared, we fear that which
we cannot understand. And yet, God also chooses, out of love, to
reveal Himself to us in Immanent form.

Any manifestation of God revealing God's Self to humanity is
Immanent God. As a Christian, I believe that God chose to
reveal Himself in the Flesh in the person Jesus Christ. I also
believe that every manifestion of Immanent God is just that,
Immanent God, whom I know through Jesus Christ, but others
may know through other names and manifestations. Its
still the same Immanent God, whether the name and person
Jesus Christ is known and acknowledged or not.

The only way to reach the transcendent aspect of God is through
the Immanent means in which He chooses to reveal Himself.

Transcendent God revealed Himself in Immanent form to Moses in
the burning bush. Transcendent God reveals Himself in Immanent
Form through the words of the prophets. Transcendent God
reveals Himself to us personally through the Holy Spirit. As a
Christian, I witness to Immanent God appearing in the Flesh in
the person of Jesus Christ. I don't expect everyone to understand
Immanent God in the same form and name that I do, but I do hope
and pray that God reveal Himself in Immanent form to everyone
in some way during their lives, because to experience the loving
touch of Immanent God transcends description.

Dave Miller

[Dave Miller]

One more thing, no one can prove or disprove the existence of God.
We can only witness to how God has affected our lives.

For me, God has rescued me physically, emotionally, and
Spiritually from death and despair.

Dave Miller

[freelight]

Hi Dave,

:thumb:

May the transcedent God who is Life - the very Source, Substance, Mind and Spirit of All that IS......ever baptize us in His omni-radiance! There are many fashions, forms, modalities, channels, frequencies thru which the All-mighty manifests and reveals His person-ality and presence.

We rejoice that such a 'revelation' came to be thru the appearing of the Christ - the Logos.

shalom,


paul

[attention]

Originally posted by Dave Miller
One more thing, no one can prove or disprove the existence of God.

Are you really sure about that?

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by attention
Are you really sure about that? Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

[attention]

Originally posted by Aimiel
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

That is phantastic, but how does that answer my question?

[Aimiel]

I don't have to answer for anyone but myself. God asks in this verse that you prove Him. He will make Himself known, but only to those who believe that He is, and then diligently seek Him. That is all that He requires.

[OKHARRY]

Moses said unto Jehovah God, What is Thy name? God said unto Moses, I am who I Am, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent Me unto you; and thou shalt say, Jehovah God of your fathers hath sent Me unto you: this is My name to eternity, and this is My memorial from generation to generation (Exod. 3:13-15).

Harry

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Dave Miller
One more thing, no one can prove or disprove the existence of God.
We can only witness to how God has affected our lives.

For me, God has rescued me physically, emotionally, and
Spiritually from death and despair.

Dave Miller

A LIFE radicly changed from being DEAD to one who is ALIVE.is PROOF.
HENCE ALL true BORN again children of God who are WALKING in the light as He is in the light are ALL proofs of not only His existence but His manifested RELAVENCE and power in ever day life.
The MOON is proof that the SUN is shining somewhere.
and while it is night gives LIGHT to those who are in darkness.
Untill the Sun arises and the shadows flee away.

[OKHARRY]

His face was as the sun shineth in His power, signifies the Divine love and the Divine wisdom, which are Himself, and proceed from Himself.

That by "the face of Jehovah," or of the Lord, is meant the Divine Himself in His Essence, which is the Divine love and the Divine wisdom Himself, will be seen in the explanations below, where mention is made of "the face of God." The same is signified by "the sun shining in His power." That the Lord is seen as a sun in heaven before the angels, and that it is His Divine love together with His Divine wisdom, which so appear

It remains here only to be confirmed from the Word, that the "sun," when mentioned in reference to the Lord, signifies His Divine love, and at the same time His Divine wisdom. This may appear from the following places:
In that day the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, it shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days (Isa. 30:26).

"That day" is the advent of the Lord when the old church is destroyed, and a new one is about to be established; "the light of the moon" is faith from charity, and "the light of the sun" is intelligence and wisdom from love, and thus from the Lord.

Thy sun shall no more go down, neither shall thy moon withdraw itself; for Jehovah shall be an everlasting light (Isa. 60:20).

The sun which shall not set, is love and wisdom from the Lord.
The rock of Israel spake unto me, as the light of the morning when the @sun ariseth (2 Sam. 23:3-4).

The "rock of Israel" is the Lord: His throne shall be as a sun (Ps. 89:36-37).
This is said of David; but by "David" is there meant the Lord.
They shall fear thee with the sun. In his days shall the just flourish, and abundance of peace until there is no moon; the name of the Son shall be before the sun; and all nations shall be blessed in Him (Ps. 72:5, 7, 17).

This also is said of the Lord. Because the Lord appears as a sun in heaven before the angels, therefore:
When He was transfigured, His face did shine as the @sun, and His raiment became as the light (Matt. 17:1-2).

And it is said of the strong angel who came down from heaven, that: He was clothed with a cloud, and His face was as it were the sun (Rev. 10:1);
and of the woman, that: She was seen clothed with the @sun (Rev. 12:1).

"The sun" in these passages also signifies love and wisdom from the Lord; "the woman" is the church, which is called the New Jerusalem.

Since, by "the sun," is meant the Lord as to love and wisdom, it is evident what is signified by "the sun" in the following places:

Behold the fierce day of Jehovah cometh; the sun shall be darkened in its rising, and the moon shall not make her light to shine; I will visit upon the world its wickedness, and upon the impious their iniquity (Isa. 13:9-11; see also Isa. 24:21, 23).

And when I shall have extinguished thee, I will cover the heavens, and I will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine, and I will set darkness upon thy land (Ezek. 32:7-8).

The day of Jehovah cometh, a day of darkness, the sun and the moon shall not make their light to shine, and the stars have withdrawn their splendor (Joel 2:10).

The @sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great day of Jehovah cometh (Joel 2:31).

The day of Jehovah is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened (Joel 3:14-15).

The fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, the third part of the stars, and the day shone not for a third part of it (Rev. 8:12).

The sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood (Rev. 6:12).
The sun was obscured by the smoke of the pit (Rev. 9:2).

In these passages by "sun" is not meant the sun of this world, but the sun of the angelic heaven, which is the Divine love and the Divine wisdom of the Lord.These are said to be "obscured," "darkened," "covered," and "blackened" when there are evils and falsities with man.

It is evident, that similar things are meant by the Lord's words, where He speaks of the consummation of the age, which is the last time of the church:
Immediately after the affliction of those days shall the sun be obscured, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (Matt. 24:29; Mark 13:24-25).

And in like manner in the following passages:
And the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall grow black over them (Micah 3:5-6).

In that day I will cause the sun to set at noon, and I will darken the earth in the day of light (Amos 8:9).

She that hath borne seven shall breathe out her soul; her sun is set while it is yet day (Jer. 15:9).
This is said of the Jewish church, which was "to breathe out its soul," that is, would perish; "the @sun shall set," signifies that there will be no longer any love and charity.

[6] It is said in Joshua, that:
The sun stood still in Gibeon, and the moon in the valley of Ajalon (Josh. 10:12-13).
This appears as if it was historical, but it is prophetic, being quoted from the book of Jasher, which was a prophetic book; for it is said:
Is not this written in the book of Jasher? (Josh. 13).

The same book is also mentioned as prophetic by David (2 Sam. 1:17, 18); something similar is also said in Habakkuk:
The mountains were moved, the sun and moon stood in their seat (Hab. 3:10-11).
Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon be withdrawn (Isa. 60:20).
For to make the sun and moon stand still would be to destroy the universe.

Since the Lord as to the Divine love and the Divine wisdom is meant by "the sun," therefore the ancients in their holy worship turned their face to the rising of the sun; and also their temples, which custom still continues.

That the sun of the world is not meant in these places by "the sun," is evident from its having been considered profane and abominable to adore the sun and moon of the world, as may be seen in Num. 25:1-4; Deut. 4:19; 17:3, 5; Jer. 8:1, 2; 43:10, 13; 44:17-19, 25; Ezek. 8:16; for by "the sun of the world" is meant the love of self and the pride of one's own intelligence; and the love of self is diametrically opposite to the Divine love; and the pride of one's own intelligence is opposite to the Divine wisdom.

To adore the sun of the world is also to acknowledge nature as god, and one's own prudence to be effective of all things, which involves the denial of the true God, and the denial of the Divine providence.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

The belief that the passion of the cross was redemption itself is the fundamental error of the church.

This error, together with the error respecting three Divine persons from eternity, has perverted the whole church to such an extent that there is nothing spiritual left in it.

What at the present day more fills and crams the books of the orthodox, or what is more zealously taught and inculcated in the schools, or what is more frequently preached and proclaimed from the pulpit, than that God the Father, being angry with the human race, not only put it away from Himself, but also included it under a universal damnation, and thus excommunicated it; but being gracious, He persuaded or inspired His Son to descend and take upon Himself this determined damnation, and thus appease the anger of His Father; and that under no other conditions could the Father look with favor upon mankind?

And further, that this was actually done by the Son; in that by taking upon Himself the damnation of the human race He suffered Himself to be scourged, to be spit upon, and finally crucified by the Jews as one "accursed of God" (Deut. 21:23); and after this had been done the Father was propitiated, and from love for His Son canceled the damnation, but only on behalf of those for whom the Son might intercede, and that the Son thus became a Mediator perpetually before His Father.

The churches of the present day resound with these and like ideas; they are reverberated from the walls like echoes from the forests, and fill the ears of all there.

But cannot everyone whose reason has been enlightened and made sane by the Word see that God is mercy itself and pity itself, because He is love itself and good itself, and that these are His essence?

It is therefore a contradiction to say that essential mercy or good can look upon man with anger and determine upon his damnation, and continue to be its own Divine Essence. Such things can hardly be ascribed to a good man, but only to a bad man, nor can they be ascribed to an angel of heaven, but only to a spirit of hell. It is therefore horrible to ascribe them to God.

But if it is asked why this has been done the answer is, that the passion of the cross has been taken for redemption itself; and from this these ideas have flowed forth, as from one falsity falsities flow forth in a continuous series, or as from a cask of vinegar nothing but vinegar can flow, or from an insane mind nothing but insanity can flow.

For from a single conclusion kindred principles flow; these lie hidden in the conclusion, and grow out of it one after another; and from the doctrine that the passion of the cross was redemption there may proceed or be drawn many other things that are scandalous and dishonoring to God, until the saying in Isaiah comes to pass:
The priest and the prophet err through strong drink; they stumble in judgment; for all tables are full of the vomit of filthiness (Isa. 28:7-8).

Harry

[geralduk]

It is written " The preaching of the cross is foolishnes to them that believe not but to them that beleive it is the power of God unto salvation"
The cross being a stumbling block to the jews and foolishnes sto the greeks(gentiles)

"But the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men"

and it has pleased God to save men by the foolishness of preaching and those who belive what is preached(the truth)

[Delmar]

Originally posted by Skeptic
The truth is, God is just a myth. And there is no rational reason to believe the Bible is anything but a collection of fairy tales, with some historical accuracy regarding people and places.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The incredible Hulk

Mr McGee don't make me angry you wouldn't like me when I'm angry !!!!! REPENT REPENT REPENT

[attention]

Originally posted by Aimiel
I don't have to answer for anyone but myself. God asks in this verse that you prove Him. He will make Himself known, but only to those who believe that He is, and then diligently seek Him. That is all that He requires.

I have a different starting point. My starting point would be, that I exist and am aware that a world exist.

I could ponder then the question if and or, the world I am aware of through my senses, is in fact 'real' or that that is just an imagination or illusion.

I can remember that THAT is the fundamental question I asked myself. The question is then, apart from the fact that I can acknowledge the fact that I am witnessing the world, if it could have been the case, that such is not the case.

Please follow my inquiry in this question here (http://forums.philosophyforums.com/showthread.php?t=3261)

[OKHARRY]

The trinity doctrine of three Divine persons, both in past ages and at the present day, has sprung solely from a failure to understand the Divine Esse.

The unity of God is inmostly inscribed on the mind of every man, since it lies at the center of all that flows from God into the soul of man; and yet it has not descended into the human understanding, for the reason that the knowledges by which man must ascend to meet God have been lacking.

For everyone must prepare the way for God, that is, must prepare himself for reception.This is done by means of knowledges.

The knowledges that have been lacking, and that enable the understanding to penetrate far enough to see that God is one,not three, and that not more than one Divine Esse is possible, and that from Him is every thing in nature, are as follows:

(1) no one has known anything about the spiritual world, the abode of spirits and angels, which every man enters after death.

(2) It is equally unknown that in that world there is a sun, which is pure love from Jehovah God, who is in the midst of it.

(3) That from this sun a heat goes forth, which in its essence is love, and a light which in its essence is wisdom.

(4) That in consequence all things in that world are spiritual, and affect the internal man, and constitute his will and understanding.

(5) That Jehovah God from His sun has produced not only the spiritual world and all the spiritual things in it, which are innumerable and substantial, but also the natural world and all the natural things in it, which also are innumerable but are material.

(6) No one has known what the distinction is between the spiritual and the natural, nor even what the spiritual is in its essence.

(7) Nor has anyone known that there are three degrees of love and wisdom, in accordance with which the angelic heavens are arranged.

(8) Nor that the human mind is divided into that number of degrees, to the end that it may be raised after death into one of the three heavens, which takes place in accordance both with its life and its faith.

(9) Finally, that not the least particle of any of these things could have had existence except from a Divine Esse which in itself is the Itself, and the First and the Beginning, the source of all things.These knowledges have been lacking; and yet these are the means through which a man may rise to a knowledge of the Divine Esse.

[2] It is said that the man rises; but the meaning is that he is raised up by God. For in acquiring knowledges for himself man exercises his freedom of choice; but as he acquires for himself knowledges from the Word by means of his understanding he prepares the way by which God comes down and raises him up.

The knowledges by means of which the human understanding rises, God holding it in His hand and leading it, may be likened to the steps of the ladder seen by Jacob, which was set upon the earth with the top of it reaching to heaven, by which the angels ascended while Jehovah stood above it (Gen. 28:12, 13).

It is wholly different when these knowledges are lacking, or when man despises them. In that case the elevation of the understanding might be likened to a ladder reaching from the ground to the windows in the first story of a magnificent palace which is a dwelling-place of men, and not to the windows of the second story which is a dwelling-place of spirits, and still less to the windows of the third story which is a dwelling-place of angels.

The difference between animals and humans is that they cannot raise their minds above the natural level as humans can in order for them to understand God.

Harry

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by attention Please follow my inquiry in this question here (http://forums.philosophyforums.com/showthread.php?t=3261) God offers you the possiblity of seeing His Kingdom here. (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+3&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)

[kidd94]

Originally posted by attention
The technique itself is a step forward. You can use television to educate people. But it depends in which hands it is, who controls it, then it can be used to manipulate people. Like we are all being manipulated about the world affairs, we were all manipulated in having to belief the story of the weapons-of-mass-destruction of Iraq, etc.
Likewise, advertisers exploit consumers in their ease of believing things. As long as you can tell a lie and repeat it daily, there will be people that actually believe that lie.

There are people out there that have opportunity to manipulate us, and can go on telling lies everyday.

That is the real problem.

This could be applied to Science just as easily as with religion don't you think. If enough scientist write enough books on evolution, the big bang, that the world has always existed, than there will be those that believe it or will at least consider there theories...

[attention]

Originally posted by kidd94
This could be applied to Science just as easily as with religion don't you think. If enough scientist write enough books on evolution, the big bang, that the world has always existed, than there will be those that believe it or will at least consider there theories...

I think I was referring to the world of politics firstly.

And about scientists, for sure a scientists can lie. But at least science has a couple of rules, which would reveal that.
Observations can be checked by many scientists, and science has an open debate, and does not agree on certain things.
In the end there are verifiable facts, which makes it unlikely down to straight impossible to make a scientific theory that would conflict with reality.

[attention]

Originally posted by Aimiel
God offers you the possiblity of seeing His Kingdom here. (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+3&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)

This text is so difficult to understand, that I already read it three times before I can even get to the proper idea of what is meant to say.

You are loosing me on this one. The language used and metaphorics don't trigger the right thoughts in my head, I am affraid.

But let me try what is probably tried to make clear here:

The first part (Nicodemus - Jesus) is about the concept of being born again as an already born person. Well I can decipher that it is meant to say that you can be born again in a metaphorical sense, not the biological sense.

So far I can understand.
Then there is an explenation about being born in the flesh from the flesh and in the spirit from the spirit (which is body and mind). And that we can not foretell the wind, like noone can tall who is born in the spirit.

The Nicodemus asked: how can that be, and Jesus asks how it can be he does not know that.
If he can not even believe earthly things then how would he conceive of heavenly things.

Well some part I simply can not make much sense of, but the moral is something like that those who believe in the son of God get eternal life, and those that do not shall not see life but the wrath of God.


Well what can I say?
This kind of text, and because of the way in which it is written, does not make it especially easy for me to understand this.

I can imagine that the content of the text could better be rewritten to modern language.

The text is written for the reader of 2000 years ago. Why do Christians expect that people nowadays can follow these things?
I mean, you can have the same content of the message, but adapt the language and parabels and examples into modern times. It would make it lots easier for people to understand what is said and is meant.


Now of the (supposed) content of this story, which was about the kingdom of God, which as we would need to understand would be eternity in heaven.

Now, since I am not a believer, to me the words 'heaven' and 'eternity' do not mean a thing, neither would 'afterlife' in the spiritual sense.

But this is how I can state such a thing, in my own terms and language.

Firstly when we die we die, which both ends the life processes in our body and in our consciousness as well.

BUT, in a different sense, we, or what our essence is of what we have done in our life, still live on in the minds of OTHER people that have known you. So if you have done good things, people will remember you in a good way ("heaven") and if you done bad things people will remember you in a bad way ("hell").
Since we are not there anymore after we die, you could ask then, well who cares, dead=dead, so you can go on with your life as you please?
But that is not the case, since we have prior knowledge about that facts now, so THAT could influence the way we conduct our lives NOW. We have conscience of those things, and they make a difference.
And to be reborn simply means you change your conducts, and became another person.

Now, I think that is an explenation, I could give, and which would make sense to me, and supposedly to others.
I think the message is the same, and that is what matters, not the language and concpets used, in which it was written.

But this Bible story, I am sorry, is for me too old-dated and states thing in too obscure language and concepts to have meaning for me.

I think the way in which we know things, is not what makes the difference, but it is the content of our knowledge that is.

[attention]

Originally posted by Aimiel
God offers you the possiblity of seeing His Kingdom here. (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+3&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)


And another word:

Please get rid of outdated concepts and supernatural notions. It is not essential for the message to come through. Like I showed you can simply but in every day language and place it in every day life situation. The your message has a better chance of being properly understood.

We are living now, and have a real life, and don't live in the way they used to do 2000 years ago. People now have become a lot less superstitious, and base their understanding of reality on facts, not on the supernatural.

If you can not make yourself understandable without basing yourself on supernatural, then you place a barrier between the message and the receivers, which is not needed.

[Aimiel]

Maybe you should look here. (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=john+3&NASB_version=yes&language=english&x=10&y=8) This is the same quote, from the New American Standard (NAS) Bible.

You, as well, should be able to reach more adherents and possibly even have a civil conversation or two, if you were to make your responses in a way which could be understood by someone who doesn't have a Doctorate in Thinkology.

[attention]

Originally posted by Aimiel
Maybe you should look here. (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=john+3&NASB_version=yes&language=english&x=10&y=8) This is the same quote, from the New American Standard (NAS) Bible.

You, as well, should be able to reach more adherents and possibly even have a civil conversation or two, if you were to make your responses in a way which could be understood by someone who doesn't have a Doctorate in Thinkology.

I am always replying to questions regarding my posts.

But my question is now, if one conceives of the message or content of this text in the way I did in my previous post, am I then understanding the content in the right way, or not?

[Aimiel]

Could you rephrase that, in 'everyday' language?

[attention]

Originally posted by Aimiel
Could you rephrase that, in 'everyday' language?

I was saying that I don't think "heaven" , "afterlife" and "supernatural" exist.

Simple as that.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by attention I was saying that I don't think "heaven" , "afterlife" and "supernatural" exist.

Simple as that. If you are NOT SURE that they DON'T; you might should look around and make some preparations, just in case. It couldn't hurt. Try reading the New Testament, with an open mind. Read the book of Job. Read Proverbs. You will find God, if you honestly look for Him. If you close your mind, and UN-scientifically say, "There is NO God," because you SEE NO PROOF, you are in logical AND scientific error.

[attention]

Originally posted by Aimiel
If you are NOT SURE that they DON'T; you might should look around and make some preparations, just in case. It couldn't hurt. Try reading the New Testament, with an open mind. Read the book of Job. Read Proverbs. You will find God, if you honestly look for Him. If you close your mind, and UN-scientifically say, "There is NO God," because you SEE NO PROOF, you are in logical AND scientific error.

If you honestly look at how nature works, how evolution works, then you will see that there is no God.

I don't need a book to discover that, it is nature itself that is telling us that. Nature can't lie.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by attention
Nature can't lie.

Are you unnatural?

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by attention If you honestly look at how nature works, how evolution works, then you will see that there is no God.If you will 'honestly' look at evolution, you will see that it is a lie, and there is no supporting evidence for it, but rather more that is contrary. You could read this, for example. (http://www.spokanenet.net/dsadams/evolution_is_a_lie.htm)I don't need a book to discover that, it is nature itself that is telling us that. Nature can't lie. Apparently you need The Truth, and are seeking Him, or so it would appear, at least on the surface. That is not enough, though. Your search needs to have some intestinal fortitude; you need to strive forward with the courage of your convictions.

A doctor, researching a cure, can't say, "There is no cure," and maintain that mindset, and find a cure. You claim to be 'scientific,' but don't adhere to the basic principle of science: an open mind. The doctor has to say, "I believe there is a cure, somewhere," and begin his search. Without this as a 'theory,' he will only proove his own foolishness: "There is NO CURE." Are you willing to let go of your closed-mindedness and take the plunge? Go ahead, I dare you. If you are, I know you will find God, for He has to reveal Himself to you, He promised to, and He can NOT LIE!!!

"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." -- Matthew 7:8 NASB

'You will seek Me (God) and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." -- Jeremiah 20:13 NASB

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him (GOD), for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." -- Hebrews 11:6 NASB

:thumb:

[Elias]

Jesus Christ is the "I~AM" come in the flesh


John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I AM he.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

[22] Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child * *, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:

and his name shall be called

Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

God bless

Peace :):)

[attention]

Originally posted by Aimiel
If you will 'honestly' look at evolution, you will see that it is a lie, and there is no supporting evidence for it, but rather more that is contrary. You could read this, for example. (http://www.spokanenet.net/dsadams/evolution_is_a_lie.htm)


That text is realy ridiculous. What do you think I would react to such a text? It is not written to convince me, it is only written to convince those who already believe.

The text tells a lie, in the sense that it states that evolution is a scientific theory which is wrong.

There is however no backup of any scientific relevant argument in the text on which to conclude that. It only says and supposes that evolution is wrong because it would not be reconcilable with a literal genesis interpretation.

The obvious conclusion then is that the literal genesis interpretation is wrong.

Both from cosmology and the origin of our solar system, from geology and from biology (evolution) it is clear that the genesis account can not be true even if a day is an arbitrarily long period of time. The earth could not exist before there were stars, earth is made of star-stuff.

Further the universe doesn't need a creator, since it doesn't have a begin in time or needs a begin in time. Modern cosmology got rid of the idea that there needed to be a begin of time.

See for example this science paper (pdf) (http://bubba.ucdavis.edu/~infl03/Anthony_Aguirre/infl_infl.pdf) or (ppt (http://bubba.ucdavis.edu/~infl03/Anthony_Aguirre/infl_infl.ppt)) about a inflationary cosmos without a begin.


Apparently you need The Truth, and are seeking Him, or so it would appear, at least on the surface. That is not enough, though. Your search needs to have some intestinal fortitude; you need to strive forward with the courage of your convictions.


Not only me but also you need the truth. The truth is that there is no God.


A doctor, researching a cure, can't say, "There is no cure," and maintain that mindset, and find a cure. You claim to be 'scientific,' but don't adhere to the basic principle of science: an open mind. The doctor has to say, "I believe there is a cure, somewhere," and begin his search. Without this as a 'theory,' he will only proove his own foolishness: "There is NO CURE." Are you willing to let go of your closed-mindedness and take the plunge? Go ahead, I dare you. If you are, I know you will find God, for He has to reveal Himself to you, He promised to, and He can NOT LIE!!!


But humans can lie. That is the problem. All religious text are written by humans. They can be wrong, and have been shown to be wrong in many cases.

If you are not able to let go of a false hypothesis then who is closed minded?

[attention]

Originally posted by Sozo
Are you unnatural?

Ok. Let me reformulate: anorganic nature can not lie.
Organic nature already aquired that property to some extend, for instance, butterflies pretending to have large eyes, to fool other animals, etc.

[OKHARRY]

A proper perception of these matters may show that the universe is a coherent whole from first to last, since it contains ends, causes and effects bound up in an indissoluble knot.

Since every love has an end in view, and all wisdom is the advancement of the end through mediate causes, and through these proceeding to effects, which are the purposes it serves, it follows too that the universe contains the Divine Love, the Divine Wisdom and services, and is a coherent whole from first to last.

Every wise man can study as in a mirror the fact that the universe is composed of a perpetual succession of services brought about by wisdom and initiated by love, if he forms for himself any general idea about the creation of the universe, and examines its details.

For the details adapt themselves to the general pattern, and this arranges them into a consonant form.

Harry

[Aimiel]

Evolution is still only a theory, and has yet to be proven. It actually has more evidence against it than for it. The 'missing link' is still just that: MISSING. It won't be found because the lie of evolution is just that: A LIE.

There are no monkeys forming into clans, starting fires and hunting lions with spears, anywhere on this earth, and never will be.

To believe that the complexity of our universe alone, let alone the human animal, could have happened by means other than Divine Creation is sheer foolishness. Only a fool would believe in his heart that there is no God. He laughs at their foolishness: "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision."

As I said, if you wish to be scientific, then use proper scientific method; otherwise you merely appear foolish, claiming one thing but doing another. Your babbling on about 'scientific' proof and so on is meaningless, unless you wish to subscribe to the scientific methods which are tried and true. You believe too much popular media, and don't do enough proper research. That is called gullibility, where I come from.

[attention]

Aimiel:

If you call evolution not scientific and dismiss the vailidity of enormous amounts of evidence, then we are out of discussion.

There is only a lack of evidence for creation. Quite simple: it has no evidence. It is therefore a belief, that denies in fact every scientific fact.

Okharry:

The universe is a material entity, and nothing more.
We can intelectualize it's powers and properties, but as such that does not make up to a creator of that universe.

Fact is that the universe has existed always, and doesn't have or need a creator. That is an indesputable fact.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by attention If you call evolution not scientific and dismiss the vailidity of enormous amounts of evidence, then we are out of discussion.As you wish. Your lack of credible defense of the theory is evidence enough that there really is none to support it. Many who are really 'scientific' types have come to a knowledge of The Truth (Jesus) because of their own open-mindedness, and search for God. I thought you might be able to become one of those.There is only a lack of evidence for creation.That is your opinion.It is therefore a belief, that denies in fact every scientific fact.No, the scientific facts stated in the Bible (many) have been proven true in many instances, and none have ever been proven false; and the same goes for the historical record of the Bible.The universe is a material entity, and nothing more.Opinion.We can intelectualize it's powers and properties, but as such that does not make up to a creator of that universe.As I said, you are not being the least bit scientific in this regard. What about my challenge to you? What are you afraid of? Finding God? He does not have anything evil in His Hand to give to you, since He is Only Good. If you would start out (as a 'true' scientist would be willing to) saying, "There MIGHT be a God, and I am going to find out," and honestly look for evidence to prove your theory, you would find Him. He always rewards those who believe He exists and who diligently seek Him. Just think, then you could ask your deepest questions and He would answer you, personally. What harm would there be in that?Fact is that the universe has existed always, and doesn't have or need a creator. That is an indesputable fact. No, it is opinion. The creation theory is true, as God said, whether or not you believe it. I, for one, believe it. I am also in very good company.

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by attention
Aimiel:

If you call evolution not scientific and dismiss the vailidity of enormous amounts of evidence, then we are out of discussion.

There is only a lack of evidence for creation. Quite simple: it has no evidence. It is therefore a belief, that denies in fact every scientific fact.

Okharry:

The universe is a material entity, and nothing more.
We can intelectualize it's powers and properties, but as such that does not make up to a creator of that universe.

Fact is that the universe has existed always, and doesn't have or need a creator. That is an indesputable fact.

The book of Genesis is not about the natural universe, as Christians think today. It concerns the regeneration of man's soul.

All matter in the natural universe are representations of the spiritual side of man.

The unity of God is inmostly inscribed on the mind of every man, since it lies at the center of all that flows from God into the soul of man; and yet it has not descended into the human understanding, for the reason that the knowledges by which man must ascend to meet God have been lacking.

For everyone must prepare the way for God, that is, must prepare himself for reception.This is done by means of truth. The truth that have been lacking, and that enable the understanding to penetrate far enough to see that Jehovah God is one, and that not more than one Divine Esse is possible, and that from Him is every thing in nature, are as follows:

(1) No one has known anything about the spiritual world, the abode of spirits and angels, which every man enters after death.

(2) It is equally unknown that there is in that world a sun, which is pure love from Jehovah God, who is in the midst of it.

(3) That from this sun a heat goes forth, which in its essence is love, and a light which in its essence is wisdom.

(4) That in consequence all things in that world are spiritual, and affect the internal man, and constitute his will and understanding.

(5) That Jehovah God from His sun has produced not only the spiritual world and all the spiritual things in it, which are innumerable and substantial, but also the natural world and all the natural things in it, which also are innumerable but are material.

(6) No one has known what the distinction is between the spiritual and the natural, nor even what the spiritual is in its essence.

(7) Nor has anyone known that there are three degrees of love and wisdom, in accordance with which the angelic heavens are arranged.

(8) Nor that the human mind is divided into that number of degrees, to the end that it may be raised after death into one of the three heavens, which takes place in accordance both with its life and its faith.

(9) Finally, that not the least particle of any of these things could have had existence except from a Divine Esse which in itself is the Itself, and thus the First and the Beginning, the source of all things.

These knowledges have been lacking; and yet these are the means through which a man may rise to a knowledge of the Divine Esse. It is said that the man rises; but the meaning is that he is raised up by God.

For in acquiring knowledges for himself man exercises his freedom of choice.

As he acquires for himself knowledges from the Word by means of his understanding he prepares the way by which God comes down and raises him up.

The knowledges by means of which the human understanding rises, God holding it in His hand and leading it, may be likened to the steps of the ladder seen by Jacob, which was set upon the earth with the top of it reaching to heaven, by which the angels ascended while Jehovah God stood above it (Gen. 28:12, 13).

The ladder seen by Jacob in Genesis is by way the understanding that leads to God.The more we understand God the higher we come to meet Him. Jehovah God is on top of this ladder.

Christians can't climb the ladder of understanding, because they look at Jehovah God the wrong way. Their doctrine is base on three Divine persons, but it was Jehovah God who became Man,and that there was no trinity before creation.

Harry

[geralduk]

You start froma false premiseand you then must conclude with one.

"The VOICE of the Lord walked in the coolof the evening" in the garden east of Eden.
Who but the WORD is the VOICE of God who walks?
For He sent His WORD......... "and it shall not return unto Himvoid but shall acomplish that whereunto He sent it"'
if then the WORD goes forth from God and there fore is 'SEPERATE' from Him who sent 'it'
It is clear then that the WORD of God was "WITH GOD and was God even ffrom the beginning!
and that WORD waS MADE flesh(WHICH IT WAS NOT IN THE GARDEN)
and dwelt among us.
and is it not written that "HIS LIFE(on earth) is the lioght of men and enlightens all men that cometh into the world"?
Now that which is SENT FROM GOD and that WHICH COMETH FROM GOD and was with Him even from the beginning is clear then that the Word IS God and that JESUS is THAT WORD and is HE whom SPEAKETH in the last days.
For God spoke by the prophets in sundry times and in divers ways "......hath in these last days SPOKEN to US by HIS SON"
THEREFORE THAT VOICE that walked IN THE GARDEN and SPOKE to Adam and Eve is both one and the same; the indivisible SON of the GODHEAD.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by OKHARRY The book of Genesis is not about the natural universe, as Christians think today. It concerns the regeneration of man's soul.Lie and then a fairy tale to top it off. It is about creation. Our God is Truth, His Word is Truth. He does not lie. (1) No one has known anything about the spiritual world, the abode of spirits and angels, which every man enters after death. Jesus does, since He created it all. He came to show us The Way Everlasting.(2) It is equally unknown that there is in that world a sun, which is pure love from Jehovah God, who is in the midst of it. Lie. He is in Heaven, which is not inside the sun. However, hell is beneath the earth, located inside its molten core. Maybe that is the god you refer to: Satan, the god of this world.(3) That from this sun a heat goes forth, which in its essence is love, and a light which in its essence is wisdom. Then why is Heaven described as a place where there is no sun, nor any heat?(4) That in consequence all things in that world are spiritual, and affect the internal man, and constitute his will and understanding.Double-talk, and gibberish. (5) That Jehovah God from His sun has produced not only the spiritual world and all the spiritual things in it, which are innumerable and substantial, but also the natural world and all the natural things in it, which also are innumerable but are material. More of the same: meaningless drivel.(6) No one has known what the distinction is between the spiritual and the natural, nor even what the spiritual is in its essence. Jesus has, since He is The Word of God:

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (7) Nor has anyone known that there are three degrees of love and wisdom, in accordance with which the angelic heavens are arranged.More drivel.(8) Nor that the human mind is divided into that number of degrees, to the end that it may be raised after death into one of the three heavens, which takes place in accordance both with its life and its faith. Wrong.(9) Finally, that not the least particle of any of these things could have had existence except from a Divine Esse which in itself is the Itself, and thus the First and the Beginning, the source of all things.Hogwash. God created beings, with free will, who are able to do things which are impossible for Him: sin.These knowledges have been lacking; and yet these are the means through which a man may rise to a knowledge of the Divine Esse. It is said that the man rises; but the meaning is that he is raised up by God. Drivel.For in acquiring knowledges for himself man exercises his freedom of choice. Yes, and if he is chosen by God, he can even have Eternal Life. As he acquires for himself knowledges from the Word by means of his understanding he prepares the way by which God comes down and raises him up. A lie, because: "The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD."Christians can't climb the ladder of understanding, because they look at Jehovah God the wrong way. Their doctrine is base on three Divine persons, but it was Jehovah God who became Man,and that there was no trinity before creation.The Bible teaches differently. The Three 'Persons' you spoke of, are One and The Same: God.

[OKHARRY]

From you
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) No one has known anything about the spiritual world, the abode of spirits and angels, which every man enters after death.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus does, since He created it all. He came to show us The Way Everlasting.

From me:

I never post that the Lord knew nothing the spiritual world. While the Lord preach in this world, He also preached at the sametime in the spiritual world before the angels. YES! Before men and angels He preached the Word. It is you and the JW, LDS, Catholics and Protestants who know nothing about God and what the Word is saying.

Harry

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by OKHARRY While the Lord preach in this world, He also preached at the sametime in the spiritual world before the angels. YES! Before men and angels He preached the Word. It is you and the JW, LDS, Catholics and Protestants who know nothing about God and what the Word is saying.Apparently you have not read a Bible, because none of the nonsense you are spouting is in there.

[OMEGA]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by OKHARRY While the Lord preach in this world, He also preached at the sametime in the spiritual world before the angels. YES! Before men and angels He preached the Word. It is you and the JW, LDS, Catholics and Protestants who know nothing about God and what the Word is saying.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently you have not read a Bible, because none of the nonsense you are spouting is in there.
=======================

WAIT A MINUTE AIMIEL,

The Angels could see him,

the Demons could see him

and the Humans could see him.

Therefore, Jesus did Preach to them all.

It is our turn to Listen and Take Action .

We have the CHOICE to Repent NOW !

The Demons already made their Choice.


:thumb:

[Aimiel]

Thank you, Omega.

Yes, the mystery of God's Plan of Salvation was revealed to both men and angels at the same time. The greatest example we have is the message the angels gave to the shepherds, at Christ's birth. I still feel that this discussion (because of our limited knowledge, and proofs) along these lines is irrelevant to our assigned task and our stated directives. We seem to be drifting away from these without getting off on bunny trails, we don't need to be chasing rainbows.

[OKHARRY]

Without the knowledge of the spiritual sense of the Word no one can know why the prophet Jeremiah was commanded by Jehovah God to buy himself a girdle, and put it on his loins; and not to draw it through the waters, but to hide it in a hole of the rock by Euphrates (Jer. 13:1-7).

Or why the prophet Isaiah was commanded
To loose the sackcloth from off his loins, and put the shoe from off his foot, and go naked and barefoot three years (Isa. 20:2-3).

Or why the prophet Ezekiel was commanded
To pass a razor upon his head and upon his beard, and afterwards to divide the hairs, and burn a third part in the midst of the city, smite a third part with the sword, scatter a third part in the wind, and bind a few of them in his skirts, and at last throw them into the midst of the fire (Ezek. 5:1-4).

Or why the same prophet was commanded
To lie upon his left side three hundred and ninety days, and upon his right side forty days, and to make himself a cake of wheat, and barley, and millet, and spelt, with the dung of an ox, and eat it; and in the meantime to raise a rampart and a mound against Jerusalem, and besiege it (Ezek. 4:1-15).

Or why the prophet Hosea was twice commanded
To take to himself a harlot to wife (Hos. 1:2-9; 3:2-3).

And many like things. Moreover, without the spiritual sense who would know what is signified by all the things pertaining to the Tabernacle, such as the ark, the mercy-seat, cherubim, lampstand, altar of incense, the bread of faces on the table, and its veils and curtains?

Who without the spiritual sense would know what is signified by Aaron's garments of holiness, by his coat, cloak, ephod, urim and thummim, miter, and other things?

Who without the spiritual sense would know what is signified by all the things enjoined concerning the burnt-offerings, sacrifices, meat-offerings, and drink-offerings, and also concerning the Sabbaths and feasts?

The truth is that not the least thing was commanded concerning them that did not signify something of the Lord, heaven, and the church.

From these few examples it may be clearly seen that there is a spiritual sense in all things of the Word and in every particular of it.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

The spiritual sense of the Word has been unknown. that all things of nature, and likewise of the human body, and also every single particular in them, correspond to spiritual things.

It has not been known what correspondence is, although in the most ancient times this was very well known.

For the science of correspondences was then the science of sciences, and was so universal that all the writings and books were written by means of correspondences.

The book of Job, which is an ancient book, is full of correspondences.

The hieroglyphics of the Egyptians, and also the fabulous stories of highest antiquity, were nothing but correspondences.

All the ancient churches were churches representative of heavenly things; their rites, and also the ordinances according to which their worship was instituted, consisted exclusively of correspondences.

So did all things of the church among the sons of Jacob; their burnt-offerings and sacrifices, with each and every thing thereto pertaining, were correspondences; so was the Tabernacle with all its contents; so were their feasts, the feast of unleavened things, the feast of Tabernacles, and the feast of first-fruits.

So was the priesthood of Aaron and the Levites, and also the holy garments of Aaron and his sons; besides all the ordinances and judgments that concerned their worship and their life.

Divine things present themselves in the world by correspondences, the Word has been written exclusively by means of them.

Therefore the Lord spoke by correspondences, because He spoke from His Divine, for that which is from the Divine, descending into nature, is turned into such things as correspond to Divine things, and which then store up and conceal in their bosom the Divine things that are called celestial and spiritual.

Harry

[Behira]

Harry;

are you saying correspondences as "on Earth as it is in Heaven"?

Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy Name
Thy Kingdom come
Thy will be done
On Earth as it is in Heaven?

This prayer is almost kabalistic in nature; don't you think?

[Aimiel]

If we are spiritual, we are acting according to God's direction. We do not gain anything from these things in our flesh. We are just the 'vessels,' being used by The Master Potter.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

"Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven."

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by Behira
Harry;

are you saying correspondences as "on Earth as it is in Heaven"?

Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy Name
Thy Kingdom come
Thy will be done
On Earth as it is in Heaven?

This prayer is almost kabalistic in nature; don't you think?

The Holy Scripture itself is full of correspondences. The Lord's prayer has a correspondence.

From Swedenborg: "Our Father, who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come." Those of you understand by these words the Father in His Divine alone; but I understand Him in His Human, and this too is the Father's name. For the Lord said: "Father, glorify your name," that is, your Human. When this happens, the kingdom of God comes.

From myself: This means the word "name" means Human,"Hollowed be thy name or Hollowed be thy Human.

The instruction to use this prayer has been given us for the present time, that is, so that God the Father may be approached through His Human, which He assumed in the world, and is His right hand.

The Lord also said: "No one comes to the Father except through Me."

From myself: No one come to the Father until the person approach Him as a Man, and Jesus Christ is Jehovah God the Father in the Human.

And the prophet said: "A child is born for us, a Son is given to us, whose name is God, Hero, the everlasting Father"; and elsewhere: "You, Jehovah, are our Father, your name is our Redeemer from of old." There are thousands of other passages where the Lord our Saviour is called Jehovah. This is the true explanation of those words in the Lord's Prayer.'

Harry :)

[OMEGA]

OK HARRY , Wait for God to MAIL you some Correspondences

and then maybe you will Understand, Spiritually that is

and your HEAD won't be so HOLLOW .:chuckle::thumb:

[OKHARRY]

The Lord from eternity, who is Jehovah, created the universe and everything in it from Himself and not from nothing.

People throughout the world know, and every wise person from an interior perception acknowledges, that there is one God who is the Creator of the universe.

People also know from the Word that God, the Creator of the universe, is called Jehovah, so named from the verb to be, because He alone just is.* That the Lord from eternity is Jehovah God-this we demonstrated in The Doctrine of the New Jerusalem Regarding the Lord by citing many proofs from the Word.

Jehovah God is called the Lord from eternity because it was Jehovah who assumed a Human in order to save people from hell.

Moreover at that time He commanded His disciples to call Him Lord.** Consequently in the New Testament Jehovah is called the Lord, as can be seen from considering the following statement. [In the Old Testament:]

You shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart, and with all your soul... (Deuteronomy 6:5)

And in the New Testament:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul... (Matthew 22:37)

The same substitution is found in other passages taken from the Old Testament and quoted in the Gospels.
* See Exodus 3:13-15. Cf. John 8:58. The name Jehovah in Hebrew (hwhy) is derived from the verb hwh (= hyh) meaning be, and it resembles the third person form hyhy meaning he is. The Hebrew verb form is imperfect in aspect, so that it encompasses also the meanings he will be and he has been. Cf. the phrase who is and who was and who is to come in Revelation 1:4, 8, 11:17.
** John 13:13.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

The light and cold of winter corresponds to Faith without good works, in which all things on the earth are torpid, and nothing belonging to harvest, to fruits and blossoms, is produced; but faith [conjoined] with love or charity is like the light of spring and summer, in which all things blossom and are produced. Good works is charity in action.

The wintry light which is that of faith separated from charity is changed into thick darkness when light from heaven flows in; and those who are in that faith then come into blindness and stupidity.

The four seasons corresponds to changes of states in man.

Harry

[OMEGA]

Thanks for waxing Poetic for us Harry

but we've heard it all before.

This we hold as self evident that God (YAHWEH = THE GODS)

CREATED the Universe from Star making Machines.

And that there are 2 Gods , the Father and JESUS .

Jesus was the Lord God of the Hebrews and later

became a human being and REVEALED the Father to us also.

Any Questions that you want me to answer.

The 2nd coming will be approximately, Dec 28, 2012 AD.

(Heb 11:3 KJV) "Through faith we understand that the worlds

were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen

were not made of things which do appear.":thumb: :D

[Aimiel]

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[Aimiel]

I have been authorized to tell you the hour, though, if you are interested.

[OMEGA]

Aimiel , Notice that it says DAY - HOUR.

Nothing about YEAR, DECADE, SEASON, CENTURY, MONTH .

(Mat 24:31 KJV) "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

(Mat 24:32 KJV) "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"

(Mat 24:33 KJV) "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

All these things are happening right now !

Song . . . " People get ready , For the Days a coming . . . "

:angel:

[OKHARRY]

The four seasons of the year called spring, summer, autumn and winter, the four periods of the day called morning, noon, evening and night, the four ages of man called infancy, youth, manhood and old age, and all other things which either come into existence from time or have a succession in accordance with time.

In thinking of these, a man thinks from time but an angel from state. In consequence, what is in them from time with a man is, with the angels, turned into an idea of state.

Spring and morning are turned into an idea of the state of love and wisdom such as they are in their first state with angels.

Summer and noon are turned into an idea of love and wisdom such as they are in their second state, autumn and evening such as they are in their third state, night and winter into an idea of such a state as exists in hell. This is why these states have a like significance in the Word.

This makes clear how natural things in the thought of man become spiritual with the angels who are with man.

Harry

[Aimiel]

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

[OMEGA]

In thinking of these, a man thinks from time but an angel from state. In consequence, what is in them from time with a man is, with the angels, turned into an idea of state.

What are you talkin about there boy, is that the State of Texas

or Arkansas ?

[OKHARRY]

God is Love itself and Wisdom itself, and these two constitute His Essence. In the earliest ages it was seen that love and wisdom are the two essentials to which all the infinite things that are in God and proceed from God have reference.

Succeeding ages, as they withdrew their minds from heaven and immersed them in things worldly and corporeal, gradually became unable to see this.

For they gradually ceased to know what love is in its essence, and what wisdom is in its essence, not knowing that love abstracted from a form is impossible, and that love operates in a form and through a form.

From myself: In order for love to operate in a form (Human) and through a form, Jehovah God the Father become Man so that He may do the work of redemption.

Since God is the Itself and the Only Divine, and the first substance and form, the essence of which is love and wisdom, and since from Him were made all things that were made, it follows that He created the universe with each thing and all things of it from love by means of wisdom; consequently the Divine love, together with the Divine wisdom, is in each and all created subjects.

Love, moreover, is not merely the essence that forms all things, it is also that which unites and conjoins them, when they are formed, holds them in connection.

All this may be illustrated by innumerable things in the world; as by the heat and light from the sun, which are the two essentials and universals by means of which each thing and all things on the earth have their existence and subsistence.

Heat and light are there because they correspond to the Divine love and Divine wisdom.

The heat that goes forth from the sun of the spiritual world is in its essence love, and the light from it is in its essence wisdom.

This, again, may be illustrated by the two essentials and universals, namely, the will and the understanding, by means of which human minds have their existence and subsistence; for of these two everyone's mind consists, and they are in, and operate in, each thing and all things of the mind.

This is because the will is the receptacle and habitation of love, as the understanding is of wisdom; and for this reason these two correspond to the Divine love and the Divine wisdom in which they originated.

The same truth may be illustrated further by the two essentials and universals by means of which the human body has its existence and subsistence, namely, the heart and lungs, or the contraction and dilatation of the heart and the respiration of the lungs.

It is known that these two are operative in each and all things in the body. For the reason that the heart corresponds to love, and the lungs to wisdom.

That love as a bridegroom and husband produces or begets all forms, yet only by wisdom as a bride and wife, can be proved by things innumerable in both the spiritual world and in the natural world, provided only it is kept in mind that the entire angelic heaven is arranged in its form, and kept in it, from the Divine love through the Divine wisdom.

Those who deduce the creation of the world from any other source than the Divine love through the Divine wisdom, not knowing that these two constitute the Divine Essence, descend from reason's sight to eyesight, and bestow kisses on nature as the creator of the universe; and thereby conceive chimeras and bring forth specters.

They devise fallacies, and reason from them; and their conclusions are eggs that contain birds of night.

Such should not be called minds, but eyes and ears without understanding, or thoughts without soul.

They talk of colors as if these existed without light; of trees as if they existed without seed; and of all things in the world as existing without the sun.

For they make derivatives to be first principles and things caused to be causes.

They turn all things upside down, lull their reason to sleep, and the things they see are dreams.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

There is in the world no nation possessing religion and sound reason that does not acknowledge a God, and that God is one. As a consequence of the Divine influx into the souls of men, treated of just above, there is in every man an internal dictate that there is a God and that He is one.

Yet there are some who deny God, and some who acknowledge nature as god, and some who acknowledge more gods than one,like three Divine person, and some who worship images as gods; which is possible because such have blocked up the interiors of their reason or understanding with worldly and corporeal things.

Thereby obliterating their first or childhood idea respecting God, and at the same time rejecting religion from their breasts and casting it behind their backs. Christians acknowledge one God; but in what manner is evident from their established creed, which is as follows:
The Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in trinity, and trinity in unity. There are three Divine persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and yet there are not three Gods, but one God.

There is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit, and their divinity is one, their glory equal, and their majesty coeternal.

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But like as we are compelled by Christian verity to confess each person singly to be God and Lord, so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say there be three Gods or three Lords.

From myself: The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. This doesn't seem like one God to me. How can three persons be one god?

Such is the Christian faith respecting the unity of God. But that the trinity of God and the unity of God in that creed are inconsistent with each other will be shown in the chapter on the Divine trinity.

The other nations in the world possessing a religion and sound reason agree in acknowledging that God is one; all the Mohammedans in their empires; the Africans in many kingdoms of that continent; the Asiatics in their many kingdoms; and finally the Jews to this day.

Of the most ancient people in the golden age, such as had any religion worshiped one God, whom they called Jehovah. The same is true of the ancient people in the succeeding age, until monarchical governments were established, when worldly and afterwards corporeal loves began to close up the higher regions of the understanding, which previously had been open, and had been like temples and sacred recesses for the worship of one God.

In order to reopen these and restore the worship of one God as a Man, the Lord God instituted a church among the posterity of Jacob, and made this the first of all the commandments of their religion:
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me (Exod. 20:3).
Moreover, the name Jehovah, which He at this time restored, signifies the supreme and only Being, the Source of everything that is or exists in the universe.

Harry

[Aimiel]

What if The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are merely 'attributes,' of God, such as our soul, body and spirit are? We barely understand the one that we can see, and have most of our troubles from mis-understanding the other two. What if no one who is finite could possibly even begin to understand, let alone entirely comprehend The Infinite God? I believe that only when we are able to see Him face-to-face, will we begin to understand Him. Not that there will ever come an end to that exploration, finding out about His Love and His Grace will take up our eternity.

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by Aimiel
What if The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are merely 'attributes,' of God, such as our soul, body and spirit are? We barely understand the one that we can see, and have most of our troubles from mis-understanding the other two. What if no one who is finite could possibly even begin to understand, let alone entirely comprehend The Infinite God? I believe that only when we are able to see Him face-to-face, will we begin to understand Him. Not that there will ever come an end to that exploration, finding out about His Love and His Grace will take up our eternity.

Most Christians have been raise up to believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are divided persons.

Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God beside Me? There is no righteous God and Saviour beside Me. Isa. 45:21, 22.

I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Isa. 43:11.

I am Jehovah your God, and you are not to acknowledge any God beside Me, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Hosea 13:4.

Because of these sayings many Reformed Churches don't believe Jesus is a God. They they believe He is the Son of God only, but not God.They worship the Father only,and don't believe He became Man. They need to read Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; whose name is God, the Father of Eternity (9:6). In some Bibles He is called the Everlasting Father.

The only way to understand Jehovah God the Father God is to believe He became Man.

It is hard to understand God in His invisible state. Most Christians see Jehovah God the Father as a cloud. They worship anything that looks like God, clouds and all.

They think of Him sitting on clouds. They never think of Him as being a Man, so that redemption can be done by Him being a Man.

Harry

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by OKHARRY Most Christians have been raise up to believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are divided persons. I don't know 'MOST' Christians, but I was raised to believe that He (God) does not really exist. I became a believer when He introduced Himself to me. Most of the Christians that I know (spirit-filled) have a relationship with Him, and their Christianity reflects that. I think that the best analogy I ever heard was the following:

You see the sun up in the sky; (Father)
You see the light it gives; (Son)
You feel its warmth. (Holy Spirit)
Do you believe that we have three suns?

I believe that He created us in His Image. We are spirit-beings, who live in a body of flesh and have a soul (personality). He is no different, but is above us, further than the heavens are above the earth.

[Berean Todd]

I always preferred the egg analogy myself - yolk, white, and shell. All three distinct with distinct roles, but all part of one egg.

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by Aimiel
I don't know 'MOST' Christians, but I was raised to believe that He (God) does not really exist. I became a believer when He introduced Himself to me. Most of the Christians that I know (spirit-filled) have a relationship with Him, and their Christianity reflects that. I think that the best analogy I ever heard was the following:

You see the sun up in the sky; (Father)
You see the light it gives; (Son)
You feel its warmth. (Holy Spirit)
Do you believe that we have three suns?

I believe that He created us in His Image. We are spirit-beings, who live in a body of flesh and have a soul (personality). He is no different, but is above us, further than the heavens are above the earth.

The sun does represents Jehovah God's Divine Essence. You are on the right path to understanding God. From the sun comes heat,light and energy.

The Energy of the sun is signifies by the Lord leading man by means of Divine Truth, which is the Word. The Holy Spirit is Divine Truth,which is the Word,and the Lord is the Word,this means He is the Holy Spirit, since He is the Word.

The works of the Lord, leading man to salvation, are in general, reformation and regeneration; and in accordance with these, renovation, vivification, sanctification and justification; and in accordance with these latter, purification from evils, forgiveness of sins, and finally salvation.

All this is not possible without good works of charity being together with faith,not faith by itself.

The man must do his part. Repentance comes first. Believing on the Lord is not enough.The person must repent and than do good.

These in their order are the energies made operative by the Lord in those who believe in Him, and who adjust and dispose themselves for His reception and indwelling.

This is done by means of Divine truth, and with Christians by means of the Word.

The Word,which is Divine Truth, is the sole medium through which man draws near to the Lord, and into which the Lord enters. The Lord Himself is the Holy Spirit.

A tree represents man. A tree without the sun is nothing, just as man without the Lord is nothing. A tree grows fruits on it, just as man must bring forth fruit.

Many Christians believe they will be saved at the last hour. I say this to them. Can a tree be fully grown with its fruits in one day after the seed was planted in the earth?

Harry

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by OKHARRY Many Christians believe they will be saved at the last hour. I say this to them. Can a tree be fully grown with its fruits in one day after the seed was planted in the earth? I always tell people that when they notice the ship is sinking is not the time to learn to swim. Jesus said that He would come back as a thief in the night. We need to trim our lamps, so that we don't run out of oil. The foolish will not do this, and so will not be taken in that night.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Aimiel
I always tell people that when they notice the ship is sinking is not the time to learn to swim. Jesus said that He would come back as a thief in the night. We need to trim our lamps, so that we don't run out of oil. The foolish will not do this, and so will not be taken in that night.

Not nitpicking.
But they ALL trimmed thier lamps.
It was because their VESSELS were not FULL and thought that the oli in their lamps was ENOUGH was the root of thier foolishness

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by geralduk Not nitpicking.
But they ALL trimmed thier lamps.
It was because their VESSELS were not FULL and thought that the oli in their lamps was ENOUGH was the root of thier foolishness Not correcting your spelling. You mis-spelled oil.

[geralduk]

:)
I realy MUST learn to type better!

All joking aside though, did you see my point?

[Aimiel]

Yes, and it was a valid point, I thank you for pointing out that point, with your pointy fingers; sir.

[geralduk]

lol

:)

[Aimiel]

Don't worry, I realize that the wounds of a friend are faithful.

[geralduk]

According to what ".....FAITH IS" as defined by the scriptures

ALL men HAVE faith wether saved or unsaved.
It becomes 'SAVING' faith when it is put IN GOD.

"For God has given a MEASURE of faith to EVERY man to profit withall."

God the FATHER has faith and was first manifested in Genesis.
and is in His SON.

The LORD Jesus Christ has faith and is IN His FATHER.


There is a "GIFT of faith" over and above that which God has given to every man.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by geralduk There is a "GIFT of faith" over and above that which God has given to every man. Amen. I have walked in this one many times. The biggest desire I have within my overrunning prayer life, I mean the directive I have had for decades, and still pray about, is to see The Body of Christ unite, and rise up together against the last enemy: Death. When this happens, we will have a party. It is called The Marriage Supper of The Lamb. I believe that we will knock death back down to hell, proclaim this earth, "Death-Free," and just as The Lord returns for His Spotless Bride, we just happen to be ready to jump off this rock. I don't think that we will be fit to go with Him, unless we're ready to go there by faith. I believe that we will be so united (not only with each other, but with His Spirit as well) that we will just 'know' when it is time, and when He comes back for us, all we have to hear is the first trumpet blast, and we're gone.

:thumb:

[OKHARRY]

Let us make man.

The use of 'God' in the Old Testament Word to mean Divine Truth within the heavens explains why the word for God in the original language is Elohim, a plural form. It also explains why the angels in heaven, being receivers of Divine Truth, are called 'gods', as in David.

Who in heaven will compare himself to Jehovah? Who will be likened to Jehovah among the sons of gods? Ps. 89:6-8.

In the same author,

Give to Jehovah, O sons of gods, give to Jehovah glory and strength. Ps. 29:1.

In the same author,

I said, You are gods, and sons of the Most High, all of you. Ps. 82:6.

In John,

Jesus said, Is it not written in your Law, I said, You are gods? If* He called them gods, with whom the Word of God came to be . . . John 10:34, 35.

In addition there are those places in which the Lord is called 'God of gods' and 'Lord of lords', such as Gen. 46:2,7; Deut. 10:17; Num. 16:22; Dan. 11:36; Ps. 136:2, 3.

From all this one may see in what sense Moses is called 'a god', here 'a god to Pharaoh' and in Exod. 4:16 'a god to Aaron' - that he was called such because Moses represented the Divine Law, which is Divine Truth and is called the Word.

This also explains why here Aaron is called his 'prophet', and in a previous place his 'mouth', that is, one who declares in a way suitable for the understanding Divine Truth which comes forth directly from the Lord and surpasses all understanding And since a prophet is one who teaches and declares Divine Truth in a way suitable for the understanding, 'a prophet' also means the teachings of the Church.

From myself: This explains were no three Divine persons before creation. "Let us make man" mean God works through His angels.

Creation in Genesis doesn't mean the natural world, with all its plants and animals. It means the creation of man's soul. To make a new person, put off the old and put on the new, as Paul wrote. The things of the natural world are representations of what the man state of life is.

The earth was fill of darkness in Genesis, means, man is fill will ignorance, blind, unable to understand. The spirit of God moving on the waters, mean His mercy towards man.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

Man knows nothing from himself, but only from others and by way of others, so that he may recognise and acknowledge that all he knows, understands and is wise about is from God.

Man could not in any other way be born and be created by God, and become His image and likeness.

For he becomes an image of God by his acknowledgment and belief that he has received and continues to receive all the good of love and charity and all the truth of wisdom and faith from God, and not a whit from himself.

He is a likeness of God by his feeling these things in himself as if from himself. He has this feeling because he has no knowledge from birth, but receives different kinds of knowledge, and it seems to him as if he received them from himself.

Man is permitted by God to have this feeling so that he should be a man and not an animal, since by willing, thinking, loving, knowing, understanding and being wise as if from himself he receives different kinds of knowledge and sublimates them into intelligence, and by using them into wisdom. God links man to Himself, and man links himself to God.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

In the universal heaven they know no other Father than the Lord, because He and the Father are one person.

They are one as Soul and Body of Jesus Christ. The Father meant by the soul of Jesus. Every person has a soul and body.These two together make one person. The soul of Jesus is the God-Head,as written by Paul.

He Himself has said:
I am the way, the truth, and the life. Philip saith, Show us the Father; Jesus saith to him, Am I so long time with you, and hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me (John 14:6, 8-11).

Harry

[OKHARRY]

Concerning the Divine Trinity in the Lord.

These three,Father,Son and Holy Spirit are the three essentials of one God,and they are the same as the soul,body and operation in man.

In anyone thing there are both general and particular essentials,and these together make one essence.

The general essentials of the one man are his soul,body and operation. That these constitute one essence can be seen from this-that one is from the other and for the sake of the other in an unbroken series.

For man gets his beginning from the soul,which is the very essence of the semen.The soul not only initiates, but also produces in their order all things that pertain to the body,and afterward all things that proceed from the soul and body together,which are called operations.

From this production,therefore,of one from the other,and the consequent ingrafting and conjunction,it can be seen that these three are of one essence,and therefore they are called three essentials.

When it is said that the Father,Son and Holy Spirit are the three essentials of the one God,like soul,body,and operation in man,it seems to the human mind as if these three essentials are three persons,which is impossible.

But when it is understood that the Divine of the Father,which constitutes the Lord's soul,and the Divine of the Son,which constitutes the Divine Human, and the Divine of the Holy Spirit or the proceeding Divine, which constitutes the operation,are the three essentials of the one God,the statement is comprehensible.

For God the Father is His Divinity,the Son from the Father is His Divine,meaning God the Father became Man, and the Holy Spirit from both is His Divine; and as these are one in essence and one in mind they constitute one God.

But if these three Divine essentials are called persons,as believed in the church today,and if to each person is attributed his own property,to the Father imputation,to the Son mediation,and to the Holy Spirit operation,the Divine Essence,which in fact is one and not divisible,becomes divided: and none of the three is God in fullness, but each has a sub-triple power; and this a sound understanding must needs reject.

From the trinity in every man,then,who can fail to perceive the Divine Trinity in the Lord? In every man there is soul,body and operation; so also in the Lord, "for in the Lord dwells all the fullness of Divinity bodily," according to Paul (Col. 2:9)

From myself:The soul of our Lord Jesus Christ is the Father,as in John 14:9,"He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."Therefore Jesus Christ is the Father in the Human.

Therefore in the Lord the Trinity is Divine,but in man it is human.

In this mystical notion that there are three Divine persons and yet one God,and that this God,although one,is nevertheless not one person,everyone can see that reason has no part,but has been lulled to sleep,and still it compels the mouth to speak like a parrot.

And when reason is put to sleep what is speech from the mouth but dead speech? When the mouth utters that which reason turns away from and dissents from,is not speech foolish?

At this day human reason,in respect to the Divine trinity,is bound like a man in prison,manacled and fettered because of the dominion of the Catholic Church,believing all power was given to the Popes,starting with Peter.

The minds of men of the church the Divine Trinity ought to shine like a star,since God in His trinity and in the unity thereof is the All in all the sanctities of heaven and the church.

But if the soul is made one God, and the body another, and the operation a third, how does this differ from making three parts,each distinct from the other,out of these three essentials of one man? And what is that but cutting him in pieces and slaying him?

Harry

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by OKHARRY

Concerning the Divine Trinity in the Lord.


Harry

Saint Bernard warned all subsequent Ages that some things are best understood as Mysteries.

I'm glad you understand, because when I read your post, it is one big mystery.

[OKHARRY]

Originally posted by Leo Volont

Saint Bernard warned all subsequent Ages that some things are best understood as Mysteries.

I'm glad you understand, because when I read your post, it is one big mystery.

It a mystery to men of the church,because they have not approached the Lord rightly.They believe without understanding,more like a blind faith.

Harry

[OKHARRY]

GOD IS ONE PERSON:

Scriptural Reference:

Hebrews 1:3 “who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person."

There is a difference of understanding in the definition of the word “person�. Some understand person to mean the body or appearance, the visible expression. If we accept this definition, then clearly the Father is not a person, for He is Spirit.

On the other hand, others understand person to be associated with personality, individuality, self-consciousness, self-determination, etc. If we accept this definition, then the Father is a person. However, this still will not make two or three persons in the Godhead. There is only one God, and only one personality of Deity. This personality is the one and same whether seen, as Jehovah in the Old Testament,or as Jesus in the New Testament.

The Scriptural reference given, Hebrews 1:3, is the only place in the Bible that the word “person� is given when referring to the Godhead or Deity. In the Greek, this Scripture reads, “the expression of his substance�. In the Amplified New Testament we read, “He is the perfect imprint and very image of (God’s) nature.

The conclusion is that the word “person is not actually a proper word to use when referring to Deity, but rather we should use the terms, “substance, nature, being, etc.�

GOD HAS PERSONALITY:

Scriptural Reference:

1 John 1:3 “And truly our fellowship is with the Father,and with his Son Jesus Christ.�

It is very important that we have a clear understanding on this truth, for if we go wrong here, it will definitely lead to further misÂ_understanding. It is very easy to miss. the true revelation and to turn to one extreme or the other. We should pray that the Lord will enable us to remain solidly established in the very center of revealed Truth.

In both the Old and New Testaments, man is able to have fellowship with God. Man is able to talk to God and have communion with His Maker. We must never think of God as being just an impersonal force or influence. He is a personal God who loved us and manifested Himself in flesh to die for us. As such, He has personality but He is still one God, one Divine Being.

A man cannot talk to an impersonal force such as sunlight, warmth, gravity, mother nature, etc., but he can talk to his wife, his child, his father. Not only can he talk to them, but there can be a communion, a fellowship because they are living beings, individuals with minds and hearts of their own.

This truth must be clearly understood when the personal pronouns are used. The personal pronoun “He� should always be used, never the neuter pronoun “it�. This is also true when speaking of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 2:2 we find the neuter pronoun, “it�, but this is referring to the wind that filled all the house. It is correct to refer to the experience of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost as “it�, but when we receive the Holy Spirit into our hearts, we receive “Him

However, there are not three “he’s� in the Godhead. When the personal pronoun is used, we are referring to our one and only God whether revealed to us in Creation, manifested to us in Redemption, or coming into our hearts in Regeneration.

MAN IS BODY,SOUL, AND SPIRIT, BUT ONE PERSON:

Scriptural Reference:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord

I John 5 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

The titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are freely used in the scriptures, but this fact does not make three persons nor three Gods. The Bible declares that Father, Son and Holy Ghost is one person, bearing one name, “JESUS�.

To understand this truth, let us consider man. He is spirit, soul and body; but he is one person and bears one name. The three titles do not make three persons any more than body, soul and spirit make three persons. In Colossians 1:3 we read these words, “We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.. .“ Please note: “God and the Father�. Here are two titles placed together. Does this make two persons?

GOD MANIFESTED HIMSELF IN THE FLESH:

Scriptural References:

John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

1 Timothy 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.�

1Timothy 3:16 is one of the key verses that can only be understood by revelation, and yet must be understood if we are to grasp an underÂ_standing of the Godhead. The Amplified New Testament reads, “He (God) was made visible in human fleshâ€?.

In the past, God has manifested Himself in many ways to man. In creation, on Mount Sinai, in the Theophanies, in the Tabernacle, God manifested Himself in a measure to man and man was able to have a certain knowledge of God. However, in the one Scripture that speaks of God being manifested we have the greatest knowledge of God ever given, for in the incarnation Christ is the express image of the invisible God. (Hebrews 1:3)

On this thought let us quote from Adam Clarke’s Commentary on his note on John 17:6. “A little of the Divine nature was known by the works of creation; a little more was known by the Mosaic revelation; but the full manifestation of God, His nature, and His attributes, came only through the revelation of Christ.� - Adam Clarke.

In this regard let us always quote scripture correctly:

1. John 1:14 “The Word was made flesh.�

2. 1 Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.�

It was the LOGOS which was made flesh; God was manifest in the flesh. There is an important difference in these two statements which we shall see as we continue our studies.

E. THE MYSTERY OF GODLINESS:

The mystery of godliness is God manifesting Himself in flesh; the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2) is flesh manifesting itself as God. These are contrasted in the Scriptures and man has his choice. If he does not accept the mystery of godliness, he will be compelled to accept the mystery of iniquity.


THE LOGOS IS DEITY EXPRESSED:

Scriptural Reference:

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.�

“Word� is translated from the Greek “Logos�. This Greek word “Logos� means not only the expression of an inward thought, but also might attempt to define the meaning of “Logos�. We might say that the meaning of LOGOS is DEITY EXPRESSED. In other words, the “Logos� is the expression of the invisible God. The Schofield Bible says, “Deity told out"

Just as a man’s thinking and expression of that thinking cannot be separated from the man himself and is in essence part of his very being, not another person, so it is with God. The scripture written by the apostle under inspiration to safeguard against the error of another person clearly states, THE LOGOS WAS GOD.

JESUS CHRIST POSSESSES A DUAL NATURE:

Jesus Christ in the incarnation possessed a dual nature: divinity and humanity. Note well that Jesus Christ was not two persons, nor did He possess two personalities. But He was God-man, the Word incarnate, God manifested as flesh. As a human being, He was the Son; as God He was the Father. As the Son many times He spoke and acted as a man; as the Father many times He spoke and acted as God. Once this truth is understood, the door is open to a clear understanding of just who Jesus really is: THE MIGHTY GOD IN CHRIST: JEHOVAH-SAVIOUR.

JESUS CHRIST IS NOT THE ETERNAL SON:

Scriptural References:

John 1:14 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory,the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten

Son

Acts 13:33.God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

The eternal Son theory is not scriptural. It came as the result of the Trinitarian theory and teaches a second person in the Godhead. Jesus Christ in the flesh was the begotten Son. (John 3:16) The words begotten and eternal mean the very opposite and contradict each other.

Let us quote from Adam Clarke’s Commentary on his note on Acts 13:33, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

The human nature of our blessed Lord was begotten by the energy of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the blessed virgin; for as to his Divine nature, which is allowed to be God, it could neither be created nor begotten.The doctrine of the eternal Sonship of Christ is absolutely irreconcilable to reason, and contradictory to itself. Eternity is that which has had no beginning, nor stands with any reference to time: Son supposes time, generation, and father; and time also antecedent to such generation: therefore, the rational conjunction of these two terms, Son and eternity, is absolutely impossible, as they imply essentially different and opposite ideas.

Therefore Peter preached repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38.

The Lord is the "Rock," is clear from these words in Paul:
The Rock was Christ (1 Cor.10:4).

Harry

[Lighthouse]

Alright then Harry. What does Godhead mean?

P.S.
You're not OK.