Where do you place Lucifer/Satan?

[JosephofMessiah]

Here is a very important question and I want to address it in stages.

First I will ask it, and then I will go into detail exactly what I mean. I want each person's answers to be sincere and based upon a full understanding of the question.

The Question

Can Satan / Lucifer (or any other Creation) violate the Will of God?

End Question

We are not talking about "a plan" here.

A plan could be a path which God allows deviation from, providing that, over time, it "comes around" to where God wants mankind to be.

We are not talking about what "might be" here.

What "might be" can be gone away from for a time providing it comes back around to what "will/shall be" at a later time.

What we are talking about is God's WILL. What God wants _now_.

Rephrasing of Question
Can anything in creation go against what God wants to be, NOW, from being NOW?

Oh, and please feel free to state scripture for and against this, also stories which prove/disprove something can/can't defy God's Will/Wants.

[Freak]

Satan is in submission to Jesus Christ.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah
Rephrasing of Question
Can anything in creation go against what God wants to be, NOW, from being NOW?
According to most Christians, even on this board, the very existence of atheists (like me) violate the will of the deity.

As I see it, there are two options:
a) Atheists are a violation of God's will and he does nothing about it
b) Atheists are not a violation of his will so he does nothing about it

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by Zakath
According to most Christians, even on this board, the very existence of atheists (like me) violate the will of the deity.

As I see it, there are two options:
a) Atheists are a violation of God's will and he does nothing about it
b) Atheists are not a violation of his will so he does nothing about it

Hey Zakath,

You ever thought about the theory of relativity and how it applies to us?

I mean, you are a man of doubt and I am a man of faith.

I can define my faith within a relative environment because I understand doubt.

You can define your doubt within a relative environment because you understand faith.

Without doubt, you can't have faith.
Without faith, you can't have doubt.

Try to explain green from blue to a blind man in a relative universe inwhich he can't see either.

See my piont?

Of course, this would give purpose to those who DON'T believe...and I'm gonna guess that most faithful people wouldn't like that at all.

What if an Atheist screaming at the sky for any "god" which might be to smite him, is a form of praise unto God?

Heh. Maybe what we think is "praise" is really limited to ancient mankind who didn't understand relativity?

My faith might just equal out to your doubt...in the end...

In all, I want you to take solice in something Zakath, Thomas doubted God AND the resurrection of Christ, (something they will condemn you for) and would NOT believe until it was proven unto Him.

And he was saved for the evidence was provided to him.

Don't buy in (not that you do) to most thoughts upon an Omnipotent Creator which ends up having to burn most of His creation for all time, simply "because..."

God gave us a mind to seek and question (IMO), and (in all honesty) I think that at present the safest route is a form of agnosticism because the Orthodox are definitely wrong on certain counts. Period.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by Zakath
According to most Christians, even on this board, the very existence of atheists (like me) violate the will of the deity.

As I see it, there are two options:
a) Atheists are a violation of God's will and he does nothing about it
b) Atheists are not a violation of his will so he does nothing about it

c) Atheists are temporarily in doubt of God because of His plan of placing man in relativity and needing both sides to exist, he does nothing about it at present to give mankind as much free will as possible within an environment of nurture/nature, but all shall turn to God's WILL (in the end) because evidence will be offered to those that need it.

[kidd94]

Rephrasing of Question
Can anything in creation go against what God wants to be, NOW, from being NOW?

Oh, and please feel free to state scripture for and against this, also stories which prove/disprove something can/can't defy God's Will/Wants.

Very challenging question. First I am probably not the one to give you a pin point answer that you will be satisfied, and frankly not sure if anyone will be able to. This is a topic that IMO could be debated and talked about till the end of time. But isn't time, like Joseph hinted on, what we really have to consider.

The Bible states that a thousand years to us is like a Day to God. We can take that to be a literal interpretation or we can also look at it as a guideline to understand the relationship between God and how he relates to time. For me it tells me that God is not restrained by our physical time. That God does not adhere to the physics that our world is subject too. That time literally does not exist. This time restraint could be also one of the many things that puts us "a little lower than the angels". Angels are created to be eternal beings IMO, and that includes Lucifer and his dominion.

Now that we have considered that God is not restrained by time and does not exist within our time frame and having some hint from the Bible how God exists within our time frame we can then go on and think about his "WILL".

You ask can anything in creation go against God's will for the right now. Well it depends on your preception. Hear me out. We live an average of 70-80 years. To some that is a long time. But to God what is that. A vapor, mist. We are here and then we are gone. With this thinking do we have time to even step outside of God's will.

See this example

Thousand years to us:

1000 years earth Time
0 years<----------------------------------------------------------> 1K years

1000 years to God
<>

See what I am saying. IMHO we are here to do one thing, accept Christ or deny Christ. Ultimately when we consider eternity, this is our determining factor. God gives us our life on earth to determine one thing, Christ. Do we accept him, or do we reject him. I picture it like this. Our life is a piece of God's ultimate puzzle of his will. Each person that lives and accepts Christ becomes a small piece of that puzzle. During that course of life we try and help people realize that they belong to that puzzle.

Take a look at my example again. Try and find your physical earthly life in that tiny space of time. For some it takes years to accept or deny Christ, but too God that time is but a fleeting moment when you consider that God is not held to our own earthly time frame. Do you understand what I am trying to explain or do you think I am :kookoo: and should just keep my mouth :shut: . I am not sure but you have to think of things in spiritual sense. Not always in a physical sense.

When you ask about satan, I don't believe that Lucifer is bound to earthly laws of physics. Lucifer IMO completely shows his ability to go against the Laws of God. But not necessarily his will. God's will may be to big and vast to understand and explain. We can sit and :think: about this days on end, but this is my 2 cents. I hope I made some, sense that is.

[servent101]

Satan or Lucifer in the Bible has permission to rule over those in darkness... those who choose the lusts of their flesh over devotional service to God. For those who choose Jesus, as Lord Satan knows that he cannot touch them, for they have the armor of God. But obviously Satan still tries - Why? Possibly it is allowed because God is using the Devil to make sure we actually do have on the armor of God and we learn how to defend ourselves from the evil one. There is a book - Bondage Breaker, by Neil Anderson that really helped me put on the armor of God... wish I read it twenty years ago. It has sold over two million copies.

With Christ's Love

Servant101

[Zakath]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah
c) Atheists are temporarily in doubt of God ... I have no significant evidence to convince me that God, any deity for that matter, exists.

[kidd94]

I'm suprised no one commented on my theory that I posted early. I didn't think it was that kookoo :kookoo: :thumb: :freak:

[paleo-Reformed]

It is not very much in vogue these days, but coming from a Reformed perspective, my answer to the question is, quite simply, No.

Satan or man may violate/break the preceptive will of God, which are those commandments/laws He has given us such as the Ten Commandments, but their actions always fulfill His hidden decree.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by Zakath
I have no significant evidence to convince me that God, any deity for that matter, exists.

Wait...

(I know that is corny, but think not of it, for the Lord thy God is justice, and you shall have what evidence you seek some day, just as Thomas did.)

[geralduk]

Nowhere in the scriptures do you find darknes overcomeing light.
but ALWAYS when the light comes "the darkness flees away"

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by geralduk
Nowhere in the scriptures do you find darknes overcomeing light.
but ALWAYS when the light comes "the darkness flees away"

Someone doesn't know scripture very well. There are many times in scripture where men of God, who had God with them, failed. They many times failed because they underestimated the evil of our World, but they did fail.


Jdg 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.


I do not want to label the people he fought as "evil" however because it is simply that they were not Judah's people and were more advanced that they won. God setup our environment where might many time wins and "good/evil" does not matter. The stronger wins at every turn, whether God be with you or not, and the times inwhich God came between this rule is the exception not the majority. Therefore, if you will be sucessful in this World, and do the righteousness of God, be prepared for the evil of this World, be overly prepared, or contrary to some peoples great ignorance to scripture, evil wins more than you'd like to know.

[Ya'nar#1]

As someone who has the spirit of discernment as spoken of in scriptures, and also as someone who has and is experiencing first hand the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit, I must speak up here.

It is not the will of God that sin exists. How can I know this? First hand!

Let me tell you what happened to me.

About six months ago I was channel-surfing between Christian broadcasts on TV, and I happened upon one show (whose name I will withhold, but I'm sure you can guess) that practices faith-healing in the extreme. By this I mean that it does not resemble anything even close to that practiced by Jesus and the apostles, but is splashy, ostentacious, loud, and has what I would describe as the most offensive so-called minister all in white which appeared to the strains of "How Great Thou Art."

All of a sudden my whole spirit recoiled from this evil sight to such a degree that I found myself backing up and tripping over furniture doing so, in an attempt to subconsciously flee from this evil presence. When I regained some sense of myself (only a few seconds had passed), I quickly turned the station. But somewhere deep inside my stomach was the most profound ache--as if I had been confronted by Satan himself.

It is one of the jobs of the Holy Spirit to protect us from evil. And sin and evil are one. When we as Christians come into the presence of that which has the power to corrupt, we are sent a warning; a warning so severe that sometimes the Holy Spirit within us recoils, letting us know to get away from the evil as quickly as we can!

God has given us all free choice, including Satan. As Lucifer in heaven, the "covering cherub" he stood next to the throne of God. Yet he became jealous of God's Son; he coveted Jesus' place in heaven. He wanted to be God. And he caused the holy pair in Eden to fall using the same selfish desire. But you see, they, unlike us today, did NOT have a tendency to sin. God had warned them to stay away from the Tree; that Satan would attempt to cause them to sin. But they CHOSE to disobey.

Thus, sin and death entered the world through their rebellion against God's plan for their lives, which was purity and holiness.

All God's creatures have a choice. The same choice offered to Adam is offered to us today. And we will be saved or lost, depending on our response. God offers us a way out; we do not have to die the eternal death. Salvation is a free gift. But are we wise enough to accept God's plan for our lives? Or like Satan, do we choose to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven?

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah Can Satan / Lucifer (or any other Creation) violate the Will of God?If, as we read in The Bible, The Will of God is that none should perish, and Satan goes about with a three-fold purpose: to kill, steal and destroy (the life of men, that is) then, yes, it is against His Will. If you then turn your phrases, as you have learned to do so well, and say that God is to blame for everything that ever happens, and say that every lie was ultimately created by Him, then, no, in your perverted mind, God's 'will' cannot be violated. You have completely re-defined God to your desires, and dis-allowed the biggest and best parts of His Word, but your little tricks do nothing but expose the demons behind your actions.Can anything in creation go against what God wants to be, NOW, from being NOW?Of course. He designed it that way. If we were within His Will, we could come and go in Heaven, and there would be no problem. Our sinful nature cannot enter into Heaven. Sin is opposed to His Will. He designed this earth, and gave us authority. We are not in His Will when we disobey His Word. We are lost. Without His guidance, we would never find our way, being in the dark. He is The Way, The Truth and The Life.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Freak
Satan is in submission to Jesus Christ.

Not realy.
It is only when he finaly bows the knee and acknowlodges Him as Lord will all things be subjected under Christ feet.
Not that his acknowledgement does him any good as he is brought to that point where he can do and say no other.
At present knowing his time is short..............
Yet in another aspect he is.
In that he was cast out of heaven and so put under the Lords feet.
and went to the "air" There when the Lord comes "to the air"
he will be cast down again to the earth.
and when the Lord comes to the earth will be cast down into the pit."for a season"

But it should be noted that NEVER ahs he won the war.
and in ALL places where he comes face to face with the LORD he is curcumbscribed by him and HAS to do as hes commanded.

[Aimiel]

I beleive that the Bible tells us that Jesus is, "...expecting till His enemies be made His Footstool..." means that He has provided all the necessary tools to His Body to do so. The last enemy to be placed under His Feet is death. I believe that we (the Body of Christ) must unify in order to finish our assignment, that of evangelizing the world and placing Jesus' enemies at His Feet. This cannot be accomplished by a body which fights against itself.

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

When The Body of Christ is edified in love, and grown up into Him, in all things, we will begin to accomplish the work He laid out for us to complete, and greater works than He displayed, because He is with us in the works.

[OMEGA]

PALEO SAID :
Satan or man may violate/break the preceptive will of God, which are those commandments/laws He has given us such as the Ten Commandments, but their actions always fulfill His hidden decree.

-----------------------

My Answer : BALONEY

What Hidden Decree said to Make War against God.

Satan is a Free Moral Agent just like every one else .

If he wants to do something against God he will

whether God agrees with it or not.

It is the Same with Humans . They can do whatever they want.

Satan does not obey God unless Forced to and neither does man.

God limits Satan and God has limited Mankind in the Past.

God is the Ultimate Ruler

and Controls the Ultimate Future of Man.

But as far as individual actions , thats up to you .



:thumb:

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

Someone doesn't know scripture very well. There are many times in scripture where men of God, who had God with them, failed. They many times failed because they underestimated the evil of our World, but they did fail.This is not 'good' being overcome by evil. Men are not good. There is Only One Who is Good, and Jesus declared Him to us. The only failure in the life of a Christian is a prayer failure, since we are given Jesus' Own Victory.

[Nineveh]

"Can Satan / Lucifer (or any other Creation) violate the Will of God?"

Restated:

Can Satan / Lucifer (or any other creature) violate the Will of God?"

Yes.

Satan did, his demons did, and people do it all the time.

[Aimiel]

God decided to give us freewill, as He gave the angels. He also chose to place us in this earth, and knew we would end up 'in the dark' as to His Presence, until we become reconciled to Him, through Jesus.

[keypurr]

Zakath quote:
I have no significant evidence to convince me that God, any deity for that matter, exists.

I felt like you do when I was 20. No need for God in my life I thought. The established churches were so full of distorted views that a God was just unbelieable. Then I met a man while in the Navy, back in 1955, HE taught me about God and proved to me there is one. The churches could not do it, but he could. I think Yanar comes from the same church as this man, When I found out God declared the End from the Beginning, I believed. Read and Study Daniel and Revelation.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by keypurr

Zakath quote:
I have no significant evidence to convince me that God, any deity for that matter, exists.

I felt like you do when I was 20. No need for God in my life I thought. The established churches were so full of distorted views that a God was just unbelieable. Then I met a man while in the Navy, back in 1955, HE taught me about God and proved to me there is one. The churches could not do it, but he could. I think Yanar comes from the same church as this man, When I found out God declared the End from the Beginning, I believed. Read and Study Daniel and Revelation. I believed when I was twenty...

I've read and studied the entire Christian Bible in a variety of translations and the NT in Greek. The more I studied, the less believeable it became.

Now that I have been set free from religion and no longer believe in gods and demons there's no need to go backward into bondage once again. Remember that the latin roots of "religion" can be looked at as a compound of two words meaning "to bind again". :think:

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by Aimiel

This is not 'good' being overcome by evil.


Well, again the terms "good" and "evil" are in totality based upon relative viewpoint, but if the LORD was with Joshua and Joshua could not defeat another people because of the iron chariots those people had, then the LORD did not help Joshua through that point (did not alter reality or force the situation in a way to let Joshua win against the odds so-to-speak) then the "evil people" (in totality relative to if you view Joshua as with the LORD or not) won.

Now, those people in question were not in totality evil, they were defending their way of life from invaders (Joshua and his people) and neither is Joshua in totality all good (he was invading another people after all even if the LORD had promised them the land).

So again, I'm not exactly disagreeing with you but to say that those who the LORD is with "always wins" is moronic.

And if you would use as a definition "those whom the LORD is with" as a definition of the "good" then those people have many times been defeated throughout history.


Men are not good. There is Only One Who is Good, and Jesus declared Him to us.


Whatever, if Yehshua taught of an entity that required the bloody murder of an innocent to simply forgive you of sin, then by definition that entity is not good it is evil and injust. But this to the side for a moment, if the LORD is what you deem as GOOD and the LORD was with Joshua and Joshua was defeated, then it would seem that the LORD was either incapable of fighting the battle, did not desire to fight the battle, or wanted Joshua to lose, or did not care.


The only failure in the life of a Christian is a prayer failure, since we are given Jesus' Own Victory.


Sorry, but Ezekiel (18:20) told us clearly that the rightouesness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him, there is absolutely no sharing of iniquity nor righteousness between two people/entities. And your iniquities are upon you alone unless it is by prayer and repentence that they are removed as Hosea teaches clearly.

But definitely the death of any man nor mangod is salvatory by any measure what-so-ever.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

So again, I'm not exactly disagreeing with you but to say that those who the LORD is with "always wins" is moronic.So, I guess that you consider Paul, the apostle to be a moron?

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. And if you would use as a definition "those whom the LORD is with" as a definition of the "good" then those people have many times been defeated throughout history.The Lord could not join Himself to anyone who was at enmity with Him. The only ones who could enter into The Holy of Holies were often killed, because of their sins. We are allowed to come boldly to His Throne, because of the grace given to us by Jesus.Whatever, if Yehshua taught of an entity that required the bloody murder of an innocent to simply forgive you of sin, then by definition that entity is not good it is evil and injust.Jesus' death occurred by His Own choice:

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

But, since you don't recognize The Father, you don't recognize The Son, either.Sorry, but Ezekiel (18:20) told us clearly that the rightouesness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him, there is absolutely no sharing of iniquity nor righteousness between two people/entities. And your iniquities are upon you alone unless it is by prayer and repentence that they are removed as Hosea teaches clearly.It is only possible to have forgiveness through Jesus' Blood. Trampling It under your feet as you do, is one of the greatest sins of this day.


But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.But definitely the death of any man nor mangod is salvatory by any measure what-so-ever. Jesus' substitutionary death only took place for you so that you might be able to see God's Love for you and take His Life, which He offers you, still. Ask Him about it. He'll tell you.

[freelight]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah


The Question

Can Satan / Lucifer (or any other Creation) violate the Will of God?

End Question

We are not talking about "a plan" here.

A plan could be a path which God allows deviation from, providing that, over time, it "comes around" to where God wants mankind to be.

We are not talking about what "might be" here.

What "might be" can be gone away from for a time providing it comes back around to what "will/shall be" at a later time.

What we are talking about is God's WILL. What God wants _now_.





)=========== Hello JoM,...................to your primary question I would say that in time and space - this world of relativity.....it does appear that violations of Gods Will take place.....via the free will liberties that have been bestwed by God himself...upon conscious beings(angel and human). Within the bounderies of the free will grant given to his creatures......certainly it appears...that sin and the mystery of evil abounds as imperfect beings make imperfect decisions guided by selfishness, greed, innate or imposed wickedness, lack of wholeness/love/faithfulness, fear, etc. Humanity is not perfect (yet).

Satan/Lucifer evidently opposed/or opposes Gods Will as he concurrently is inspired by his own wayward or evil will - again....this transpiring within the relative creation world.



Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

Rephrasing of Question
Can anything in creation go against what God wants to be, NOW, from being NOW?

Oh, and please feel free to state scripture for and against this, also stories which prove/disprove something can/can't defy God's Will/Wants.



)============ In this very moment.......it would appear that indeed some things/beings in creation are going against what 'God wants to be, NOW'.....or what he wills for to be in existence or actuality NOW.
However,....we could also surmise that even though in this world of relativity......this appears to be the case.......ultimately.....Gods Will will prevail as all relativities are swallowed up in the fullness of His absolute Being-ness or Glory. This is also known as the consummation of all things when God is all in all - the state of spiritual perfection or paradise.
So....I would say....that it is more evident in the relative world...where sin thru free will abounds and Gods Will appears thwarted or violated.......but since God in His absoluteness and transcendency is SUPREME......His Will will ultimately be realized, satisifed, done, enjoyed.......in the fullness of the consummation of all things...when all creation (things/beings) are baptized into the fullness of His BEING...when this corruption puts on incorruption, this mortality puts on immortality,etc.
While in the relative mortal world we partake of mortality and its imperfections, defects, sin, etc. But when we become partakers of the divine nature....and become so perfected in divine Love/Christ.....and are changed into immortal beings having the substance of divinity......then......our wills will become one with his....governed wholly by divine Love and inspiration....for our natures will be changed into the same substance (LIGHT) as He IS. The seed of God shall be so germinated and perfected in us...that we can no longer sin...while we are so governed by the spirit of divinity indwelling us.
Sin (all violations/trangessions of divine law/love)......are more apt to be liberal in conditions within and without free will creatures according to their propensity towards evil. IT appears that Gods WIll is being thwarted......but perhaps it really all is within His Will...for he gave free will knowing all its potentialities and possible outcomes. Even so.....HE allows these still holding the supremacy of His Will as ULTIMATE. So...even though I do not understand all the definitives within these coordinates between Creator Will and creature will.........I say that since God is Absolute and Supreme as the Over-Soul and all-pervading SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE.....His Will will ultimately prevail. THis to me is good news! For it inspires me to will to do His Will.....to persist in the face of all evil, struggle, hardship, adversity, etc.....towards the goal and joy of love, loyalty, honor, ethic, truth, wisdom, soul-progress, even sanctification.

After all, Yahshua says that those who DO the will of His Father...shall enter into the Kingdom and enjoy the fruits thereof.
So....ultimately those who choose to value and DO the will of God.....shall enjoy the prize of Gods eternal intention and desires...unto infinity. AS we are perfected in Love...and anchored in the Christ-Spirit......we find that 'all things work together for the (ultimate) good of those who love God...and are called according to His purpose. Again we know it is Gods will that none perish....but because of the grant of free will....some will choose to self-destruct......according to the laws that govern free will constitution and destiny. Even if some souls utlimately choose destruction and come to be as though they did not exist.....all that is of eternal value of each soul is absorbed back into God the Supreme or God the WHOLE.....and the Will of God in the grand universe shall continue to prosper and be the supernal directing force in Existence....as even now it IS. Gods Will is ultimately SUPREME. Creature will has a certain sovereignty concerning its own conditional destiny within the parameters prescribed by God...and it is evident that some will choose extinction of personhood over eternal life. Nevertheless...those who choose eternal survival conform their souls to the Will of God.....for it is the primary directing force or intention underlying all existence.....and alone the upholder and sustainer of eternal life and prosperity of the soul.


paul

[keypurr]

Do you want your children to love you because they HAVE to, or do you want them to love you because they WANT to?

Are we not the children of the creator? Surely we do not do his will all the time, that is why we ask for forgiveness. We have a free will to do or not to do.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by Aimiel

So, I guess that you consider Paul, the apostle to be a moron?


No, a liar.

Paul makes the claim that Yehshua thought it not robbery to be equal to God and Yehshua said quite clearly that YHVH (his Father) is greater than him.

Go figure.


But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Vicarious barberic bloodgodism is humorous to me.


The Lord could not join Himself to anyone who was at enmity with Him.


One God who is in all and through all.
We are all created in the image of YHVH.

Because a son/daughter doesn't listen to their Creator/Father, doesn't make them not the son or daughter of that Entity. Obediance is another issue entirely. Funny thing about obediance however, it is better than your mangod's death and bloody murder anyday.


The only ones who could enter into The Holy of Holies were often killed, because of their sins.


Please tell me a reference for this statement.
I know they wore bells upon them in case God's wrath fell upon them, but tell me a location/reference for when it was used.


We are allowed to come boldly to His Throne, because of the grace given to us by Jesus.Jesus' death occurred by His Own choice:


Nice way of making an abomination not an abomination.
Doesn't matter if it was by choice, that has nothing to do with an atoning sacrifice in actuality. However, since Yehshua was neither Priest (not Levite) nor was he sinner (as Christians claim anyways), he cannot offer himself.

Oh, and you can forget about the utter ignorance of Paul's argument in trying to call Yehshua both messiah and priest, such is utter stupidity in totality. Messiah is of Judah, Priest is a Levite.


(snip)
But, since you don't recognize The Father,


I recognize YHVH and his sacrificial law which labels your false mangod an abomination outright. If "YHVH" is this "father" you speak of then I most certainly do.

However, since this "father" you speak of requires the bloody murder of an innocent simply to forgive you against the doctrine of both Ezekiel and Hosea (which simply requires prayer to forgive you), then I would suppose that I do not recognize this barberic and brutal entity of the mythos of Rome as the YHVH of the Tanakh, much more-so this doctrine and this entity is a barberic pagan bloodgod dressed up to make an abominational act seem salvatory to those that do not know the law of YHVH.


...you don't recognize The Son, either.


Well, there are alot of sons out there, and there is no such thing as a "godman" in existence, YHVH told us clearly that He is not in the Earth, nor Heaven's above, nor water's beneath, so it is easy to sum up that this "son" your pagan bloodgod recognizes is a blasphemy (idol) outright and an abominational idol at that, something you worship instead of YHVH. Or (and this is funny) a corruptible upon which they attempted to place the incorruptible, an image respected as the Actual.


It is only possible to have forgiveness through Jesus' Blood.


Far from the lie you are saying here, there is "atonement" (forgiveness is the wrong term in my view) under the prayers of our lips per Hosea, and Ezekiel tells us clearly that "Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."

So, you are quite the liar when taken in context of the prophetic voice of the Tanakh. However, if anyone else who is not a pagan bloodgoder wants more reason to not follow this false mangod of Rome, you can read here-in as to why the death of this pagan god is not atoning in any way what-so-ever at this site:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/blood.html


Trampling It under your feet as you do, is one of the greatest sins of this day.


So I call a liar a liar, a barberic murderous act a barberic murderous act, and an entity which requires the murder of an innocent simply to forgive you against the doctrine of Hosea an abomination outright, and you say it is a sin?

You're a joke, and in totality are not worth my time to respond to you anymore and it would do you well to simply not respond to my posts, Pagan.

:doh:

[freelight]

Hi JoM,


Concerning Jesus as a priest - the writer of Hebrews speaks of Jesus being of the priesthood of Melchizedek, not of the Levitical(Aaronic) priesthood. Therefore......Jesus as he is described in this book is a Priest 'after the order of Melchizedek' and not Levi. He is as the Son of God whose genology cannot be traced...as it is an eternal priesthood. Like Melchizedek,...Jesus is both King and Priest of Salem(peace). So....since Melchizedeks lineage cannot be traced....(unless u know what tribe he was of)....neither does Jesus lineage need to be traced tribally....for this priesthood is eternal. The Melchizedek priesthood predates the Law and the temple sacrafices.

And a Quest-ion >

If one can be forgiven, receive atonement, be restored, purified thru means other than the shedding of blood.....as in humility, prayer, repentance, reform, penance, etc........why was the sacrificial system of all the blood shedding iniated and set up by YHWH in the first place? What does all this blood shedding teach, reveal or affect in ones soul as they offer up such sacrifices? Were they merely physical acts symbolic of certain metaphysical and spiritual laws at work which work out atonement for the soul?
Because it appears that one could bring their offerings to the temple and priest....yet still inwardly have no true repentance or change of heart/mind.
With this in mind.....do you believe the temple sacrifices will be revived when the temple is rebuilt? Will all Jews then be required to receive atonement for their sins (those that apply) thru the temple system?? or only those that choose this way? OR....can one choose and neglect the temple system (if in operation) and just pray and repent...and still have atonement and/or forgiveness of sins?
Thoughts?



paul

[godrulz]

There are 2 main views:

i) blueprint model (Calvinism). God decrees everything (predestination). His will cannot be opposed. Everything, including evil, is in the will of God. He has meticulous control over the universe.

ii) warfare model (Arminian= foreknowledge with freedom; Open Theism= future partially open and unknowable). God is sovereign by providing providential control. He created everything perfect and declared it 'very good.' Angels and man have genuine free will and are able to oppose God's rule to some degree. They cannot overthrow Him. Jesus did not affirm evil as God's will. He came to oppose evil and restore the Kingdom/rule of God in a universe of rebels. There is a cosmic warfare. Satan and man can and do oppose God with their selfishness. This is the price of love, relationship, and freedom. God chose to not be a control-freak with His creation. This introduced the possibility, but not the certainty of evil. The life and ministry of Jesus supports this view. He revealed the way God and the universe really are. Jesus prayed for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, because it was not always being done. He came to destroy the kingdom of darkness and advance His glorious kingdom of light. The kingdom is now, but not yet. His rulership is being restored in our hearts. Someday it will be eschatologically restored with a literal earthly and heavenly kingdom and the banishment of the rebellion of Satan and man.
We messed things up, but God implemented a plan of redemption bringing His in His will without violating the will of those made in His image (will, intellect, emotions, character, etc.). The existence of Satan and hell show that God's will is not always done. It is contrary to His will and holiness and love to have His creatures run and ruin His perfect intention for them. Evil and suffering are not the will of God, yet He works redemptively at all times.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by freelight

Hi JoM,


Concerning Jesus as a priest - the writer of Hebrews speaks of Jesus being of the priesthood of Melchizedek, not of the Levitical(Aaronic) priesthood.


The author of Hebrews is an easily prooftexted liar. From his lie of "only through blood is remission" to the lie which is the re-writing of the Psalm 40 to his own end, this author is simply mis-using the Tanakh to his own pre-set ends, and doing a very poor job in the end.


Therefore......Jesus as he is described in this book is a Priest 'after the order of Melchizedek' and not Levi.


Then Yehshua is of this "other" priesthood, which is not bound under Levitical offering codes, and therefore the abomination under levitical offering codes which brings atonement does not apply. How wonderful that you can invent a priesthood which will accept an abomination as salvatory outright with but the pressing of pen to paper.


He is as the Son of God whose genology cannot be traced...


Well, I guess you are calling both the author of Matthew (whomever that was) and the author of Luke (whomever that was) liars because they both tried to "trace" the genology of Yehshua of Nazareth but both in totality failed in their attempt at demonstrating messiahship through their lineages. One is easy enough to discount (linking back to Nathan and not Solomon) and the other is even worse off.

Also, for matter of discussion "son of God" means nothing more than the Creator is your father, and YHVH is the creator of all mankind, every single one of us is created in His image, the problem is with obediance. There is no "single" son of God in existence, we are all equal, and one, God is not a respector of persons per the Tanakh.


...as it is an eternal priesthood.


Sorta like the "eternal" priesthood of Mythra.


Like Melchizedek,...Jesus is both King and Priest of Salem(peace).


The messiah will be of the house of Judah and the priests (clearly spoken of in the Tanakh) will be of the levites. One cannot be both at once unless one invents priesthoods from thin air and makes up abominational pagan idolatry sacrifical law so that a human can defacto become atoning "after the fact."

It is inventing law to fit what has happened so you can make a claim after the fact.


So....since Melchizedeks lineage cannot be traced....(unless u know what tribe he was of)....


Heh, not important as this is in totality an invention of a mind which was a liar to begin with...


...neither does Jesus lineage need to be traced tribally...


And with that statement you have ruled out the law of leviticus as not of YHVH and become heretical to an atoning sacrifice, thus you have placed yourself outside the doctrine of the Tanakh, put your faith in a blasphemous mangod of Rome's false church which follows that an outright abomination unto YHVH can be salvatory, and follow a bloodgod, one which requires utter brutality simply to forgive you against what Hosea and Ezekiel teach us.


...for this priesthood is eternal. The Melchizedek priesthood predates the Law and the temple sacrafices.


Means nothing, when the temple exists the law of leviticus stands and the mangod is an abominational offering, an idol, outright.

Without the temple we have the prophetic voice and warnings of Hosea that our prayers shall remove iniquity.

Your mangod is needless butchery in any age, with or without the temple.


And a Quest-ion >

If one can be forgiven, receive atonement, be restored, purified thru means other than the shedding of blood.....as in humility, prayer, repentance, reform, penance, etc...


You mean, as when someone simply brings charity/money instead of blood...


Exodus 30:16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls. (KJV)
{I find it especially funny that this is the King James Version.}


Or perhaps under Levitical law itself when a person offers merely flour as a sin offering under the law...


Lev 5:11 But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put [any] frankincense thereon: for it [is] a sin offering.


The problem with a lie-question, a false question like you presume to assign here-in is it is founded upon a lie, inthat YHVH setup only through blood as a rule for His salvation method, when in fact there are various methods to find atonement under the law itself and under the prophetic voices of the Tanakh (David, Solomon, Ezekiel, and Hosea agree).


.....why was the sacrificial system of all the blood shedding iniated and set up by YHWH in the first place?


So that Israel would never serve the idols of Egypt.

The lamb was a god to Egypt.

God does hold great respect for the offerings of His people who follow His law, but to those that mock His law and attempt to make an abominational idol as Him, and then to say that this idol is salvatory is blasphemy in the greatest degree, a cursory reading of the Levitical law denotes clearly that no human offering is allowed, and YHVH tells us clearly that He is not a man in the Tanakh, that He is not even in the Earth (at least not seen) and yet the doctrine of Christendom turns everything around, from not only canceling out all the methods of salvation offered under the law a part from blood, but also to that of allowing that which is denoted clearly as an abomination and attempts to make it a salvatory/atoning death.

It is ludicris.


What does all this blood shedding teach, reveal or affect in ones soul as they offer up such sacrifices?


I wonder if you mean on a personal level or theological level.

To me a blood offering denotes either you are hungry (the flesh was cooked and eaten) or that you are following the teachings of the law while at the temple on the Day of Atonement.

Since we have not temple, and we have butchers, there is no need for a blood offering in our day, Hosea tells us clearly what to do, and there is absolutely no room for a "mangod's" existence under the doctrine of the Tanakh. I do not mean the Christophiled "Old Testiment" I mean the real Tanakh when translated properly to remove the influences of Rome.


Were they merely physical acts symbolic of certain metaphysical and spiritual laws at work which work out atonement for the soul?


Why complicate matters so much with words which are meaningless.

What is "metaphysical" and why would anything beyond physical matter much anyways?

Any Entity which requires the brutal beating and killing of an innocent anything simply to forgive you is injust, barberic, and not love. It is lacking mercy and truth when you get down to brass tacts and in fact is a lie of the Church of Rome alone. Anyone trusting in this mangod must place their trust not in Yehshua of Nazareth but in the fact that the Church of Rome and the authors of the New Testament were not liars, when it is easily seen that not only is the Church's barberic history easily discovered but the authors of the New Testament are predominant in their misuse, invention, and misquotation of the Tanakh for their own ends.

It is nothing more than a hollow inheritance held to by the ignorant who fear that their barberic bloodgod might not exist if they questioned such an inhumane entity. But dare not act like Abraham and question God, because this doctrine is based upon blind acceptance of creeds and dogmas...which turn mens hearts cold to actual mercy and truth when they hear it.

Original Sin Doctrine screams at the human pysche that it is injustice inherent and people simply must "accept it without question" when Ezekiel teaches the exact opposite doctrine, go figure.

You get a choice in this life, the entity of Rome actually existed I'd stand against it for all time out of principle alone, luckily I have a few good men who claim the entity of rome is of rome's mythos alone, those men are Ezekiel, David, and Hosea.

I also find it funny that an Omniscient Entity had to take His "eternal law" and do a total re-write in order to accept the mangod's death after the fact, such is utter and total tripe when you think about it, hindsight being 20/20 that is.


Because it appears that one could bring their offerings to the temple and priest....yet still inwardly have no true repentance or change of heart/mind.


Yep, and in knowing their hearts they would not have their atonement.
The heart of the sinner was always more important to YHVH than any offering, case in point the premeditated sins of a sinner could not offer a sacrifice for and yet this person could find atonement if they turned from their wickedness and had a heartfelt repentence. Such demonstrates how small a thing blood sacrifice was/is (for sins we did not mean to do, or sins we do not remember) and how powerful true repentence is (even premeditated sin can be cleansed).


With this in mind...do you believe the temple sacrifices will be revived when the temple is rebuilt?


Prophecy says it will.
Which I find funny that the prophetic voice declares clearly that this mangod of Rome is not the final sacrifice while Christianity claims he/it was/is.


Will all Jews then be required to receive atonement for their sins (those that apply) thru the temple system?


They never were required to find atonement through the temple system, the law sets up many paths of atonement separate from the temple.

If you mean the Day of Atonement, then that was "if you are able, then do" but this does not mean that you are condemned if you did not, other methods under the law still stood in place for those people.


...or only those that choose this way?


The Tanakh clearly denotes that blood is not the atonement point. Ninevah is a great example of this, a pagan people forgiven without any sacrifice or covenant whatsoever. However it does go further, Proverbs tells us through mercy and truth is iniquity purged, Christianity is a lie and the murder of a mangod is anything but mercy.


OR....can one choose and neglect the temple system (if in operation) and just pray and repent...and still have atonement and/or forgiveness of sins?


Again, sacrifice is for lesser unplanned or forgotten sins anyways, the premeditated stuff takes prayer, humbling yourself, turning to God, and repentence.


Thoughts?

paul


That should do for now.

[erethnereh]

JoM, what is the tree of life? How can you obtain eternal life without tasting its fruit? What I'm getting to is all atonement has a single source and this source is God and there is one path and this path was guarded by an angel. It's not our works alone that save and atone for our sins but God. Yet if our works are within God, they lead us closer to God.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

Paul makes the claim that Yehshua thought it not robbery to be equal to God and Yehshua said quite clearly that YHVH (his Father) is greater than him.This gospel (Paul's) was written by one who had a relationship with The Holy Ghost. He understood Jesus' Diety, and His Presence, in his life. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are equal, since they are different aspects of The Same Being: God.One God who is in all and through all. We are all created in the image of YHVH. Because a son/daughter doesn't listen to their Creator/Father, doesn't make them not the son or daughter of that Entity. Obediance is another issue entirely. One is servant to the diety they 'listen to' and the one they obey. You are a perfect example of that.I recognize YHVH and his sacrificial law which labels your false mangod an abomination outright. If "YHVH" is this "father" you speak of then I most certainly do.If, indeed, you did, you would recognize His Son.However, since this "father" you speak of requires the bloody murder of an innocent simply to forgive you against the doctrine of both Ezekiel and Hosea (which simply requires prayer to forgive you), then I would suppose that I do not recognize this barberic and brutal entity of the mythos of Rome as the YHVH of the Tanakh, much more-so this doctrine and this entity is a barberic pagan bloodgod dressed up to make an abominational act seem salvatory to those that do not know the law of YHVH.That merely means that you're not one of the 'many' that Yeshua spoke of: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."Well, there are a lot of sons out there, and there is no such thing as a "godman" in existence, YHVH told us clearly that He is not in the Earth, nor Heaven's above, nor water's beneath, so it is easy to sum up that this "son" your pagan bloodgod recognizes is a blasphemy (idol) outright and an abominational idol at that, something you worship instead of YHVH. Or (and this is funny) a corruptible upon which they attempted to place the incorruptible, an image respected as the Actual.Or, and this is certainly more likely, since you are but a man, and Yeshua is The Son of God, Yeshua's Words are true: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Far from the lie you are saying here, there is "atonement" (forgiveness is the wrong term in my view) under the prayers of our lips per Hosea, and Ezekiel tells us clearly that "Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."You're missing the point of Yeshua's Life, which He described in Luke's Gospel: "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." He preached that The Kingdom, having a relationship with The Father, was now possible. It is only through His Blood that this can take place. If you find that abominable, then so be it.So, you are quite the liar when taken in context of the prophetic voice of the Tanakh. I would rather be in line with The Son of God, and with His explanations of the true meanings of The Old Testament, which are much more likely, and require less ignorance and scripture-twisting than yours.So I call a liar a liar, a barberic murderous act a barberic murderous act, and an entity which requires the murder of an innocent simply to forgive you against the doctrine of Hosea an abomination outright, and you say it is a sin?Yes, defaming The Lord's Plan of Salvation, and making a mockery of The Word of God is blasphemous, and you're 'tempting' God when you do such things.You're a joke, and in totality are not worth my time to respond to you anymore and it would do you well to simply not respond to my posts, Pagan.Simply because your doctrines and dialogues are circular and shallow, I understand why you would not like to be exposed to The Truth (Yeshua). He refutes the things you hold to be true, which are simple mis-understandings, and false premises. If Yeshua is not The Lord, then, yes, I am a pagan, indeed. If, as He claims, He is, then you are.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by erethnereh

JoM, what is the tree of life?


I suppose you are referencing the tree in the garden.


How can you obtain eternal life without tasting its fruit?


Eternal life in the flesh isn't possible.

Eternal life isn't what we are discussing anyways, we are discussing the location of that life when it takes place at our death. Everyone has eternal life, some of us apply false doctrines which led us to false gods during our mortal lives however.

That process, the worship of idols, false demi-gods (such as a "Satan"), and false doctrines of false churches is what we are discussing in this thread.


What I'm getting to is all atonement has a single source and this source is God...


Source of atonement is God's law through it realizing to us what sin is and how to find atonement under the law.

Separate from the law, we do not know what sin is, and separate from the law there is no means of atonement to the God of Israel.


...and there is one path and this path was guarded by an angel.


That path was back to the garden of Eden.
Nice story.


It's not our works alone that save and atone for our sins but God.


Faith is a work, so if we are saved by belief in God, we have done a work to be saved.

If we are saved by grace alone and not by belief in something, if truly it is a "gift" then faith nor work means anything, believe what you will.

If the Christian god exists, then you are required to believe upon an idol (mangod) and upon a vicarious butchery atoning death of a mangod for salvation (which is works). And of course the orthodox stance of christendom includes rituals and rites before salvation is gained.


Yet if our works are within God, they lead us closer to God.


Whatever, your mangod is an idol, his death an abomination (with or without a temple)m and violates the Tanakh's codes of atoning sacrifice in every way. Far from being salvatory, such belief systems and dogmas exist only because of barberic false churches and dogmas of barberic unquestioning masses who would rather have bliss than truth.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by Aimiel

This gospel (Paul's) was written by one who had a relationship with The Holy Ghost.


This message was written by Paul who mistranslated and/or manipulated the Tanakh to his own ends. This is of course only if you take his "Original Sin Doctrine" as it is stated and do not change it to a "nature" as many attempt to do. This is also true if you simply read his useage of the Tanakh in various instances through misquotation or cutting off the quotation of scripture in order to fit it to his false doctrine.

As prooftext you can read how Yehshua said YHVH was greater than him, and Paul denies what Yehshua says and says that Yehshua is equal to God.

Go figure.

You can also read in Hebrews (but no scholar believes that Paul wrote this text anymore) how this author manipulated the Psalm to his own barberic end.


He understood Jesus' Diety,...


A "square triangle" is not defensible in human terms/concepts.

It is the same as saying "bright darkness" or "square Triangle" or "wet dryness." You do not know what you believe because you cannot articulate it rationally. Your basic concept leads to finite=infinite, something which is outright blasphemy and creates an idol in a man whom you worship as YHVH, who is not in the Earth/seen.

You believe a mystery which is truly an abomination, and you follow that mystery in blasphemy to the actual God which is.

Simple as this, when you take it down to variables, Yehshua was not YHVH.

-Yehshua lacked all knowledge (God has all knowledge).
-Yehshua was contained in a location/flesh (God is Spirit and tells us clearly that He is not in the Earth, Heaven's above, nor water's beneath).
-Yehshua had (by his own words) no power of his own, only God did the works through him, of his own volition did he nothing. Yehshua says this clearly in "of myself I do nothing..."
-Yehshua also clearly states that there is only one good (God) and corrected a man who labeled him that in the statement "good teacher."
-Yehshua also states that his Father (YHVH) is greater than him. When Yehshua says that he is "one" with the Father it must be understood inthat Yehshua also taught that he was not equal to the Father and the New Testament record teaches us just that and also teaches clearly by what measure they are not equal. In fact, the New Testament tells us that Yehshua is a man ("the man Jesus Christ") and the various contexts denotes exactly how and in what manner Yehshua was not YHVH.

Not only was Yehshua lacking in every single attribute which is attributed to YHVH which allows that YHVH is in fact God, Yehshua's will was directly separate and different from YHVH's will (so much for co-eternal and of one substance/mind) inthat Yehshua proclaimed "take this cup from me...not my will but Thine be done."

Such Trinitarian arguments to get back to thier utter moronic acceptance of the dogma of Trinitarianism is in totality tripe, and spurious when taken in context with a scholarly lesson on the corruption of 1 John 5:7 by the Church (or a scribe who followed the doctrine of the Church) in order to insert a Tri-theism into a document which did not support such a doctrine in the least.


...and His Presence, in his life. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are equal,


You can make statements all day long until you are told to outline how they are equal.

So, by what variable are they equal? That is sorta a dare as I have yet to hear by what variable they are equal. They are not equal in mind, in purpose, in will, in location (omnipresent), nor power per the New Testament teachings, so by what variable would anyone claim that Yehshua is YHVH is beyond anything that can be articulated. It is acceptance of a dogma which is not included even in the New Testament, accepted by those who simply will not question a creed because they have learned it in their youth.

Second, since the Holy Spirit (Shakanah Glory of YHVH) is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient then by what standard do you separate this Entity from the Entity of God itself?

How does this Entity (Holy Spiritual Presence of God) get another "person" and by what is the division told except through utter wordgames? In actuality I am asking you, where is the dividing point between two omnipresent entities? I wonder if you will even clue in to what I am asking, let me try another way...

It is the same as saying,

"there is more than one "A" right here-> "A"

Then you say, no, I see one "A" in quotation marks. There is not "AA," there is "A."

I say, no, you need to understand that the A is composed of another A that has the exact same attributes and is located in the exact same place, and that other A is one and equal to that same A, but it is different. Now, we do not have a variable by which it is different to the single A that you can witness, but of course the other A is there, take our word for it we're good people.

Define the difference between two omnipresent omniscient entities and then I'll listen, until then you are inable to put into words how this "person" is separate from God himself, and in fact the Tanakh represents the Shakanah Glory of God as God Himself. See, it is kinda like when "Steve" enters a room we accept that it is Steve, even though we just have the presence of Steve there. It is not that Steve is one person and the presence of Steve is another person, because there is only One Single Steve.

So the entire wordgames to make YHVH into this three-headed Entity is purely pagan in origin, perhaps from Zorostranism or a type of Persian dualism, but in fact it has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism nor the Tanakh in the least, it is exceedingly a pagan false belief.

For all intent and purpose, there is only one A, and there is only One God. The "division" within God's omniscience perhaps could encompass all knowledge, that of every single creature which has, is, or shall exist, but certainly this knowledge of existence is not limited to a single carpenter's son's single life and death. By being Omniscient, by definition God walks with each of us through life and experiences what we do, but God is not us and we are not Him, but we are in a since One because we share existence together. But the parts do not make the Whole (without us there would still be YHVH), and neither do we sum to His Infinite Nature (we are but a finite part). And also, neither does a single finite entity/man of anything equate to all that YHVH is by definition, it would be a single life, a single perspective, and by definition that is not God. God is all perspective, or as I stated in another thread once, God would have the single objective viewpoint of reality which is not based upon relativity/subjectivity.

All those who claim different are believeing a mystery (something like a square triangle) which they cannot articulate under human terms, and by doing so are holding acceptance of that which they do not understand as their God, and by doing so are utter morons worshiping a square triangle of ignorance and acceptance of a dogma of a given Church simply because that same church told them to, and not because the Tanakh nor the prophets teach us this doctrine.


...since they are different aspects of The Same Being: God.


In other words, "I just keep telling you there is more than one A in the same spot as that same A and you simply won't listen to my creeds. I mean, how hard is it to simply believe because we tell you to?"


One is servant to the diety they 'listen to' and the one they obey.


I'm not servant to anything, anyone, anywhere. Were God to exist or not really affects me little even if I do believe that my existence has provided limited evidence that God does exist is meaningless in the end because evidence is what matters. Also, it seems you are trying to put on your "holier-than-thou" hat in that statement infering that I am of satan because I will not accept your demi-godman's abominational barberic death as a salvatory path of YHVH.

You know what you can do with your mangod and your holier-than-thou attitude.


You are a perfect example of that.


I'm the perfect example of someone who sat down one day and wrote out exactly what he believed on paper, and then questioned it. And once he discovered that he really didn't believe in anything he began to seek (the mystery of Rome is a nothing under human constructs/rationalization) and in seeking I began to listen to the Rabbi which are all over the web and in listening it is amazing what you can learn about the barberic bloodgod of rome and of rome's church with the slightest investigation. It is also amazing to undertake a scholarly approach to the New Testament and the manipulation it has been under over the past centuries by the Church to insert their doctrine into this text.


If, indeed, you did, you would recognize His Son.


Which son?
Yehshua of Nazareth?
Which "Jesus" would that be, the one spoken of by the New Testament doctrine, the one which is historically accurate, or the one which mainstreamism attempts to force upon mankind through creeds and dogmas?

Anyone interested should PM Goose about the Yehshua of Nazareth that he knows of which is historically and theologically accurate.


(snip)
Or, and this is certainly more likely, since you are but a man...


I wonder if you get that you are also but a man, and that all your conclusions are as open to fault as mine are, and that I am merely arguing the point for point creeds of the church of Rome against basic morality and justice, which these creeds fail by any simple measure.


...and Yeshua is The Son of God, Yeshua's Words are true: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."


Yehshua is the son of God.
So are you, so am I, so is anyone that is born of the Earth according to the Tanakh. We are literally "images of God in flesh." However, obediance is what we are talking about and the terminology "Son of God" is not what we are arguing over here-in. We are arguing over the pagan corruption which is in taking the truthful statement of "Son of God" and generating from that the pagan lie of "God the Son."

Also, anyone with a lick of research in the New Testament OR the Tanakh knows that the text you quote above is a manipulation of Christian translations to make it seem that Yehshua was using "YHVH" (declaring he was God/YHVH in the term "I AM") and anyone with a lick of understanding can find out that YHVH does not mean "I AM" it means "I shall be what I shall be." Therefore in Yehshua claiming that he had pre-existence before his birth (something that the Talmud teaches in fact) is really nothing big, and most certainly the useage of the phrase "I AM" at the end of that sentence means nothing more than "I exist" and second the term "I AM" is a mistranslation of YHVH anyways, it would in fact mean NOTHING to those present if Yehshua would have said such a phrase (as God's name was never "I AM" to the Jews).

So you have yet again failed because you use hack interpretations of the New Testament text which can be defeated in a little over a paragraph of scholarly research.


(snip)
He preached that The Kingdom, having a relationship with The Father, was now possible. It is only through His Blood that this can take place.


You're a liar and are so far from the truth it is humorous to continue this discussion with you, barberic as you are.


If you find that abominable, then so be it.


What I find absolutely hilarious is that you are arguing FOR the existence of an entity which out of one side of his mouth says he is love and out the other is requiring the bloody killing of an innocent to forgive you. Which, by the way, is a direct anti-thetical teaching to YHVH's (read GOD'S) law.

If anything it is very clear that an adversarial entity would wish mankind to follow such a doctrine in ignorance because it does everything that an adversary would want, it creates an idol to be worshiped instead of YHVH (Je-Zeus), it labels injustice (original sin doctrine) as justice so that a further injustice (vicarious atonement) can happen against the entirity of the law of YHVH (God).

By every measure possible it is clear that this entity spoken of by the Orthodox Claim is nothing more than barberic fear of a deviant entity of murder for salvation, who would torture all of humanity who would not listen to him out of sheer delight at cooking them eternally.

God's omnipotent and yet must serve the majority of His creation over to a demi-god fallen angel because a church says so and coddifies a few manipulated and falsely quoted texts?

It is ludicris.


I would rather be in line with The Son of God, and with His explanations of the true meanings of The Old Testament, which are much more likely,


Yehshua said that God is One.
Yehshua said that His Father (YHVH) is greater than him.
Yehshua said that he does nothing of his own, and that his Father does everything through him.
Yehshua declared his will separate and opposite to that of God's will.
Yehshua declared that his followers could be one as he and his Father are one.

How in heck do you get Trinitarianism out of such a text I will never know. Also, how Paul says that Yehshua is equal to God I will never know either, such would contradict Yehshua doctrine in totality.


...and require less ignorance and scripture-twisting than yours.


I dare you to name one single scripture (of the Tanakh) or even a textual quote from the New Testament that I have use out of context or in a "twisting" manner.

That is a direct dare.


Yes, defaming The Lord's Plan of Salvation,


Yehshua's plan of salvation has absolutely nothing to do with the ideology of Rome, in fact the creeds of Rome were not taught by Yehshua at all AND Yehshua spoke of the commandments when the rich man ask the path of salvation. This involves some type of commitment to act right under Yehshua doctrine. However, this would of course be too long of a dicussion under this thread, and would remove this thread away from intended direction, so I will simply say that the creed and path of salvation taught by the church of rome is most certainly not the path of atonement of YHVH, and is in fact the belief upon an idol and an abominational act as salvatory. It is blasphemy outright in totality.


...and making a mockery of The Word of God is blasphemous,


I have not spoken against the word of God, the Tanakh (even if it does have some problems when read critically, seek Skeptic's Annotated Bible for prooftext of this), but I do mock in totality the collected works of Rome's church which are not the word of God but are simply texts which manipulate the Tanakh to preconcieved ends.

I would simply ask you to start a thread upon the book of Matthew if you want some education as to how the author of Matthew (whomever it was) manipulated the history and the holy scriptures to his own end, even in one point inventing a prophecy which did not exist.


...and you're 'tempting' God when you do such things.


Nope, I might anger you in your blasphemous existence to think beyond your enculturation to false dogma of a church of lies, but most certainly what I am telling you is acceptible to God who is TRUTH. The problem is that Christianity doesn't want relative "truth," they want ignorant bliss.


Simply because your doctrines and dialogues are circular and shallow,


I dare you to denote how my doctrine or diaolgue is in any way circular or shallow, in fact that is yet another dare on my part to you.


I understand why you would not like to be exposed to The Truth (Yeshua).


First, your vicarious human atonement barberic bloodgodism is far from "the truth" and is in fact blasphemy, but I guess that is easy enough prooftexted by anyone who has read Ezekiel 18:20 and took it to heart.


He refutes the things you hold to be true,


Nah, the manipulations of Rome are so great that I cannot trust that the words attributed to Yehshua were in fact his, and in fact because of these manipulations I can pretty much denote what is/was the words of Yehshua, and when Yehshua conflicts with the Tanakh it is not his words. Otherwise Yehshua would be a liar.


...which are simple mis-understandings, and false premises.


Name a single misunderstanding or false premise.
Just one, that is another dare.


If Yeshua is not The Lord, then, yes, I am a pagan, indeed.


Yehshua can be a lord, an anointed man even.
Yehshua cannot be (by definition of being a man in the Earth) YHVH.


If, as He claims, He is, then you are.


Yehshua did not claim to be equal to God, those things were attributed to him much later through the evolution of Christian creeds and doctrine centuries after his life. So, since Yehshua did not claim to be YHVH, he is not a liar, but if you find someplace that Yehshua did claim to be God then that phrase is a lie, or Yehshua a liar, for God is not man.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

This message was written by Paul who mistranslated and/or manipulated the Tanakh to his own ends. ...

As prooftext you can read how Yehshua said YHVH was greater than him, and Paul denies what Yehshua says and says that Yehshua is equal to God.Yehshua, The One Who came down from The Father, created everything there is, took on the 'form' of flesh, in other words, surrendered His 'Godness' and put on flesh (for a time) making Himself subject to time and space, willfully. It is not that He couldn't make use of His Father's Throne and Authority, it is just that, for our sake, He didn't.You can also read in Hebrews (but no scholar believes that Paul wrote this text anymore) how this author manipulated the Psalm to his own barberic end.So now you're not only throwing out Pauline epistles, but everything that doesn't agree with your 'slant'? Sounds familiar. You do not know what you believe because you cannot articulate it rationally. Your basic concept leads to finite=infinite, something which is outright blasphemy and creates an idol in a man whom you worship as YHVH, who is not in the Earth/seen.Your 'hang-ups' aren't contagious. Because you have problems finding in God the ability to climb into an 'earth-suit' and walk on this planet, doesn't mean that everyone does.You believe a mystery which is truly an abomination, and you follow that mystery in blasphemy to the actual God which is.No, I believe that God has revealed much of His Mystery to me, personally, because I take Him at His Word, and have allowed His Holy Spirit to fill my flesh.Simple as this, when you take it down to variables, Yehshua was not YHVH.They are different 'facets' of The Same Being, much as your body is not your spirit, yet you are the same being.-Yehshua lacked all knowledge (God has all knowledge).Where do you believe that He lacked any knowledge?-Yehshua was contained in a location/flesh (God is Spirit and tells us clearly that He is not in the Earth, Heaven's above, nor water's beneath).He never said that He would never be in the earth, just that (at the moment that He said such) He wasn't, meaning currently. -Yehshua had (by his own words) no power of his own, only God did the works through him, of his own volition did he nothing. Yehshua says this clearly in "of myself I do nothing..."Would you dare say the same? Do you believe that what Jesus said was true? Do you believe that He did nothing of or for Himself, that it was The Father in Him, doing the works?-Yehshua also clearly states that there is only one good (God) and corrected a man who labeled him that in the statement "good teacher."Was what He said for correction or identification? I believe the latter.-Yehshua also states that his Father (YHVH) is greater than him.Which is also why He told the apostles that where He was going, they could not follow. When Yehshua says that he is "one" with the Father it must be understood inthat Yehshua also taught that he was not equal to the Father and the New Testament record teaches us just that and also teaches clearly by what measure they are not equal.You mean that, "In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God..." only means that God is God, but His Word is not? You're confused. The Word (Yehshua) is God.In fact, the New Testament tells us that Yehshua is a man ("the man Jesus Christ") and the various contexts denotes exactly how and in what manner Yehshua was not YHVH.When you come to an understanding of Him, and come into a relationship with Him, there are many texts which take on entirely new meanings, many of which cannot be mis-understood any more.Not only was Yehshua lacking in every single attribute which is attributed to YHVH which allows that YHVH is in fact God, Yehshua's will was directly separate and different from YHVH's will (so much for co-eternal and of one substance/mind) inthat Yehshua proclaimed "take this cup from me...not my will but Thine be done."Had He given in to the temptation of flesh, then, yes, He would have been less than perfect; but, since He didn't, we see that He was, is and always will be perfectly in obedience and submission to The Father, since they are One in purpose, Spirit and Truth.Such Trinitarian arguments to get back to thier utter moronic acceptance of the dogma of Trinitarianism is in totality tripe, and spurious when taken in context with a scholarly lesson on the corruption of 1 John 5:7 by the Church (or a scribe who followed the doctrine of the Church) in order to insert a Tri-theism into a document which did not support such a doctrine in the least.So you say. I choose to believe The Word of God, and His Spirit's Witness. Jesus is Lord.Second, since the Holy Spirit (Shakanah Glory of YHVH) is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient then by what standard do you separate this Entity from the Entity of God itself?He manifests as He wills, and leads those who are led by Him wherever He wills. He doesn't jump through your 'hoops' of definition and bow to your 'logic.' His Thoughts are higher than yours, as are His Ways. You need to stop trying to 'weigh' the evidence to see what you come up with and seek The One Who wrote The Word, so that you can be more obedient than you have been, and come together with Him, so that you can reason together WITH Him, instead of trying to reason Him away.How does this Entity (Holy Spiritual Presence of God) get another "person" and by what is the division told except through utter wordgames?I believe that God can manifest Himself as Flesh, Spirit, Flame, Cloud, Judge, Lion, Lamb or however He wills. I don't place my pre-conceived limits on Him.In actuality I am asking you, where is the dividing point between two omnipresent entities?Why do you not understand, there is only One God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are our 'perception' of Him.It is the same as saying,

"there is more than one "A" right here-> "A"You mean like the letter, "A," that is on my screen, the one shining on the back of my eyeball and the one that is conceived and understood in my brain?Then you say, no, I see one "A" in quotation marks. There is not "AA," there is "A."You're being silly.I say, no, you need to understand that the A is composed of another A that has the exact same attributes and is located in the exact same place, and that other A is one and equal to that same A, but it is different. Now, we do not have a variable by which it is different to the single A that you can witness, but of course the other A is there, take our word for it we're good people.You're not trying to understand God, you're trying to prove that you're smarter than He is.Define the difference between two omnipresent omniscient entities and then I'll listen, until then you are inable to put into words how this "person" is separate from God himself, and in fact the Tanakh represents the Shakanah Glory of God as God Himself. Just because God is everywhere, and chooses to manifest, as He wills, in flesh or as The Holy Ghost, that doesn't make me think that there are two or three or more Gods; The Lord is One.See, it is kinda like when "Steve" enters a room we accept that it is Steve, even though we just have the presence of Steve there. It is not that Steve is one person and the presence of Steve is another person, because there is only One Single Steve.God is not a man. He took on the form of flesh, so that His Plan of Salvation could be presented. He was / is / always will be God. You're trying to compare Him to man, instead of comparing yourself to Him, and finding that you just don't quite measure up. For all intent and purpose, there is only one A, and there is only One God.Yes, but perception is a tricky thing, isn't it?The "division" within God's omniscience perhaps could encompass all knowledge, that of every single creature which has, is, or shall exist, but certainly this knowledge of existence is not limited to a single carpenter's son's single life and death.Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph. He was, is and always will be The Son of God.And also, neither does a single finite entity/man of anything equate to all that YHVH is by definition, it would be a single life, a single perspective, and by definition that is not God. God is all perspective, or as I stated in another thread once, God would have the single objective viewpoint of reality which is not based upon relativity/subjectivity.That is why Jesus was able to say, "Before Abraham was, I Am."All those who claim different are believeing a mystery (something like a square triangle) which they cannot articulate under human terms, and by doing so are holding acceptance of that which they do not understand as their God, and by doing so are utter morons worshiping a square triangle of ignorance and acceptance of a dogma of a given Church simply because that same church told them to, and not because the Tanakh nor the prophets teach us this doctrine.The Word teaches us that our ways are not His Ways, that His Ways are past finding out, and yet you believe that you can define His Ways and limit Him with your finite 'understanding'.I'm not servant to anything, anyone, anywhere.You're a slave to your own 'reasoning' which is outside of God's instructions, since He said, "Come, let us reason together." His Holy Spirit is available to you, and He can reason together with you, and bring you to The Throne of Grace, but you refuse.Were God to exist or not really affects me little even if I do believe that my existence has provided limited evidence that God does exist is meaningless in the end because evidence is what matters.No, faith is. He rewards those that diligently seek Him.Also, it seems you are trying to put on your "holier-than-thou" hat in that statement infering that I am of satan because I will not accept your demi-godman's abominational barberic death as a salvatory path of YHVH.I hate the 'holier-than-thou' spirit, almost as much as God does. I apologize, if you were offended by my speech, and I'll be, perhaps, more pointed in my comments in the future. The spirit that makes use of those who are not led by The Spirit of The Lord is demonic, and their only 'outlet' or voice in this earth is the voice of those that will yield their members to their thoughts and make their doctrine known. If you don't allow yourself to be led by The Spirit of The Lord, you're led by the spirit of the enemy, whether you know it or not.I'm the perfect example of someone who sat down one day and wrote out exactly what he believed on paper, and then questioned it.Maybe you should seek God for answers, believing that He exists, instead of seeking words on paper, and crowning your own reasoning as king of your little world.It is also amazing to undertake a scholarly approach to the New Testament and the manipulation it has been under over the past centuries by the Church to insert their doctrine into this text.It's even more amazing to see someone who bows down to his own intellect as his god. I wonder if you get that you are also but a man, and that all your conclusions are as open to fault as mine are, and that I am merely arguing the point for point creeds of the church of Rome against basic morality and justice, which these creeds fail by any simple measure.Yup, sure do.So are you, so am I, so is anyone that is born of the Earth according to the Tanakh.Yehshua is The Onlybegotton of The Father. We are adopted.Also, anyone with a lick of research in the New Testament OR the Tanakh knows that the text you quote above is a manipulation of Christian translations to make it seem that Yehshua was using "YHVH" (declaring he was God/YHVH in the term "I AM") and anyone with a lick of understanding can find out that YHVH does not mean "I AM" it means "I shall be what I shall be." So, when Jesus said, "I Am," and the whole troop of soldiers went backwards and fell down, it was just because they were clumsy?Therefore in Yehshua claiming that he had pre-existence before his birth (something that the Talmud teaches in fact) is really nothing big, and most certainly the useage of the phrase "I AM" at the end of that sentence means nothing more than "I exist" and second the term "I AM" is a mistranslation of YHVH anyways, it would in fact mean NOTHING to those present if Yehshua would have said such a phrase (as God's name was never "I AM" to the Jews).You're making no sense. Jesus saying, "I Am," was clearly because He is I Am. He wasn't saying that He existed the way that everyone existed (in God's thoughts) but that He was, is and always will be The I Am.So you have yet again failed because you use hack interpretations of the New Testament text which can be defeated in a little over a paragraph of scholarly research.Again, you worship your 'knowledge' and not The One True God.You're a liar and are so far from the truth it is humorous to continue this discussion with you, barberic as you are.Where have I lied? One. Name one lie that you have 'caught' me in. Just one. If you can't, then kindly retract your accusation.What I find absolutely hilarious is that you are arguing FOR the existence of an entity which out of one side of his mouth says he is love and out the other is requiring the bloody killing of an innocent to forgive you. Which, by the way, is a direct anti-thetical teaching to YHVH's (read GOD'S) law.His Love could not have been demonstrated any better way, than to give His Own Son's Life up, in exchange for our death-sentence for being sinners.If anything it is very clear that an adversarial entity would wish mankind to follow such a doctrine in ignorance because it does everything that an adversary would want, it creates an idol to be worshiped instead of YHVH (Je-Zeus), it labels injustice (original sin doctrine) as justice so that a further injustice (vicarious atonement) can happen against the entirity of the law of YHVH (God).Since All Power in Heaven and in earth is given to Yehshua, then, in your little world, the devil is now God.By every measure possible it is clear that this entity spoken of by the Orthodox Claim is nothing more than barberic fear of a deviant entity of murder for salvation, who would torture all of humanity who would not listen to him out of sheer delight at cooking them eternally.It is not His Will, but men are rebellious, as was their father, Satan.God's omnipotent and yet must serve the majority of His creation over to a demi-god fallen angel because a church says so and coddifies a few manipulated and falsely quoted texts?The Word is not based on a few scriptures, but on all of them.Yehshua said that God is One.He is.Yehshua said that His Father (YHVH) is greater than him.



He was in this earth, under the covenants which God had with men, at the time. Yehshua said that he does nothing of his own, and that his Father does everything through him.Amen.Yehshua declared his will separate and opposite to that of God's will.No, He gave voice to the will of His Flesh, that of His Carnal Nature, but did not give in to it, since He was resistant to it. All other men have failed, at least once, since we are all sinners. He never sinned.Yehshua declared that his followers could be one as he and his Father are one.Yes, we can be, with one another. We are, in spirit, and, one day, in Truth. When The Body of Christ matures, you will see many miraculous things done by Her (His Body).How in heck do you get Trinitarianism out of such a text I will never know.God knows how to reveal His Truths, even if you refuse to see them.Also, how Paul says that Yehshua is equal to God I will never know either, such would contradict Yehshua doctrine in totality.How do you mean?I dare you to name one single scripture (of the Tanakh) or even a textual quote from the New Testament that I have use out of context or in a "twisting" manner.Well, it would be easier to list those which you have understanding of.


{crickets chirping}


OK, I'm done.Yehshua's plan of salvation has absolutely nothing to do with the ideology of Rome, in fact the creeds of Rome were not taught by Yehshua at all AND Yehshua spoke of the commandments when the rich man ask the path of salvation. This involves some type of commitment to act right under Yehshua doctrine. However, this would of course be too long of a dicussion under this thread, and would remove this thread away from intended direction, so I will simply say that the creed and path of salvation taught by the church of rome is most certainly not the path of atonement of YHVH, and is in fact the belief upon an idol and an abominational act as salvatory. It is blasphemy outright in totality.In blasphemy of your 'concept' of God, yes. You conceive Him as less than Who He really is.I have not spoken against the word of God, the Tanakh (even if it does have some problems when read critically, seek Skeptic's Annotated Bible for prooftext of this), but I do mock in totality the collected works of Rome's church which are not the word of God but are simply texts which manipulate the Tanakh to preconcieved ends.God's 'ends' are not yet made clear, and you don't know what they are, any more than I do. He works all things together for good, to them that love Him, and are called according to His Purposes.I would simply ask you to start a thread upon the book of Matthew if you want some education as to how the author of Matthew (whomever it was) manipulated the history and the holy scriptures to his own end, even in one point inventing a prophecy which did not exist.I have spoken prophecy, stand in the office of the prophet, and yet don't think that I know every prophecy ever spoken. When you claim that a prophecy is not from God, you need to be careful what you say, and be led of The Spirit of The Lord, lest you make the mistake which many have, and find yourself fighting against Him.Nope, I might anger you in your blasphemous existence to think beyond your enculturation to false dogma of a church of lies, but most certainly what I am telling you is acceptible to God who is TRUTH. The problem is that Christianity doesn't want relative "truth," they want ignorant bliss.I believe in The Sprit of Truth, Who lives inside of me. I have more experience in hearing His Voice, trusting Him, and reasoning together with Him, than I do with you. I have to side with Him. He never lies.I dare you to denote how my doctrine or diaolgue is in any way circular or shallow, in fact that is yet another dare on my part to you.I believe that I have, already. You don't allow your idea of God to include the possibility that He could have been flesh, and so, your idea is not large enough to cover God.Nah, the manipulations of Rome are so great that I cannot trust that the words attributed to Yehshua were in fact his, and in fact because of these manipulations I can pretty much denote what is/was the words of Yehshua, and when Yehshua conflicts with the Tanakh it is not his words. Otherwise Yehshua would be a liar.If He didn't line up with The Word of God, He would be a liar. He is not, because He is The Word of God, in The Flesh.Name a single misunderstanding or false premise.
Just one, that is another dare.Bloodgodism.Yehshua can be a lord, an anointed man even.
Yehshua cannot be (by definition of being a man in the Earth) YHVH.He is The Son of God.Yehshua did not claim to be equal to God, those things were attributed to him much later through the evolution of Christian creeds and doctrine centuries after his life.He didn't want people to know His Stature, because He didn't want men to bow to Him out of fear. He came to demonstrate His Father's Love for us, to cause us to come to Him out of a heart of love, which is Him moving upon us.

[JosephofMessiah]

I hope to make this much shorter than it was...here goes nothing...


Originally posted by Aimiel

(snip)
So now you're not only throwing out Pauline epistles, but everything that doesn't agree with your 'slant'?


I'm merely quoting the Tanakh and how Paul et al's (your) doctrine is in blasphemy to it, most certainly it is not my personal slant more-so than the ideology and theological set of modern day Rabbi (plr useage).


Because you have problems finding in God the ability to climb into an 'earth-suit' and walk on this planet, doesn't mean that everyone does.


If YHVH is in the Earth, then YHVH would then be a liar, for YHVH told us He is not in the Earth, Heaven's above, nor waters beneath nor mortal.

So, again, God did not take upon Himself flesh as we are the images of God in flesh. All of mankind created in His image, not just a premeditated select few that follow a false abomination and idol.

Also, Omniscience would by default contain all knowledge of every single lifeform that has, is, or will exist, not just one man.


No, I believe that God has revealed much of His Mystery to me, personally, because I take Him at His Word, and have allowed His Holy Spirit to fill my flesh.


And by what measure do you claim to know what is and is not God's word? At least admit that the democratically created works of Rome's Church might not be the work of YHVH, for it in totality changes the law of sacrifice (dismisses it) and in totality takes that which was once an abomination (human pagan sacrifice without priest or temple upon a cross) and attempts to define it as salvatory.

I mean, even in context of myself I admit that it is in totality a guess at what is and is not the Word of God, for unless a man is in fact inspired by God, that man does not know what is of God (and even an inspired man would not know whether it was God or another which spoke to him).

I realize you have claimed at other points to be a prophet of this mangod, and all I can say to that is so be it, mental disease asside for a moment (which is of course a possibility) there is no way for you to personally know if what has revealed itself to you is in fact YHVH, God, or another and anything telling you different is delusional on your part.

When God spoke to Abraham to kill his child, there was in fact no way that Abraham knew it was the voice of God, that is why Abraham questioned God all the way through it.

That is also why Abraham questioned God when He came to him and told him that He was about to destroy S&G.


They are different 'facets' of The Same Being, much as your body is not your spirit, yet you are the same being.


In fact we are all an image of God in spirit. I do not deny that a man can have God's Spirit in him as per my belief God is omnipresent and in all and through all.

But neither is one man all that God is by definition AND by the doctrine of the New Testament AND by the words of Yehshua of Nazareth ("my Father is greater than I"), neither is one man the lone son of God.


Where do you believe that He lacked any knowledge?


Too easy, you really make this too easy.


Mar 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.



He never said that He would never be in the earth, just that (at the moment that He said such) He wasn't, meaning currently.


I guess you do not realize that God is without change under Jewish doctrine? Perfection does not change to imperfection and by definition that is all that perfection would have to change into.


(snip)
You need to stop trying to 'weigh' the evidence...


If a man does not question that which is a lie, then he would (much like you are pagan) be servant to a hollow lie.


(snip)
I believe that God can manifest Himself as Flesh, Spirit, Flame, Cloud, Judge, Lion, Lamb or however He wills.


Funny thing, so do I.

But those manifestations are not God by definition, they are representations of Him that is not seen.


God is not a man.


That is the entire blasphemy to your own code/ideology.
How you could type that with a straight face is utter ignorance to the doctrine of Rome which teaches that a mangod exists.


Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph.


Then he was not messiah of the Tanakh, the house does not pass through the lineage of the mother.


He was, is and always will be The Son of God.


He is a son of God by being human.
There is no such thing is "God the Son" in existence, even was never will be. God told us long ago that our ways are NOT His ways.


That is why Jesus was able to say, "Before Abraham was, I Am."


I already told you that this is a manipulation done by CHRISTIAN translators to attempt to allude to the useage of the YHVH name of God in the end, when in fact the "I AM" is a false translation/manipulation and YHVH does not mean "I AM."

In essence, you repeating this ignorance weakens your argument all the more as to how upon ignorance it is based.


The Word teaches us that our ways are not His Ways,


We are mortal and God is not.
About time you GET that through your thick head.


I hate the 'holier-than-thou' spirit, almost as much as God does.


You are the epitomey of that "spirit."

So locked into the lies of the church of rome and this false godman that you will not answer the direct statements that I make about the NT's false doctrine and misuse of the Tanakh.


(snip)
It's even more amazing to see someone who bows down to his own intellect as his god.


What more does a man have than his knowledge base as to make a just and reasonable decision?

Are you suggesting that you have a means by which you make decisions which is not based upon your utterly and in totaity stupid insipid arguments based upon the doctrine of Rome's false church and false blasphemous texts?

The rest is just an attempt at indoctrination. Utter stupidity as far as I am concerned.

[godrulz]

JOM: I used to ask what group or writings you identify with. I never did get a straight answer, but was able to find a website with your religion/beliefs.

Refresh my memory what group you are with and their website.

I am an evangelical, Protestant, Pentecostal Christian (I have nothing to hide. How about you? It helps us understand your unique ideas).

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by godrulz

JOM: I used to ask what group or writings you identify with.


I answered as to the best of my memory.


I never did get a straight answer,


Now now, I give what is asked for to the best of my ability.


...but was able to find a website with your religion/beliefs.


What website was that?


Refresh my memory what group you are with and their website.


1. Not with any "group."
2. Not with any particular "web site."

I quote from various sources and visit (when I feel like it) various churches.


I am an evangelical, Protestant, Pentecostal Christian (I have nothing to hide. How about you? It helps us understand your unique ideas).

1. I am a Buddhism Jew-ish open-minded questioner of barberic ideologies.
2. I am very closely linked to the teachings of many Rabbi but I take a critical viewpoint on anyone claiming any particular text as infallible.
3. I believe Trinitarianism is a sickness of injustice, a type of plague upon the human pysche which children are brainwashed to accept without question. I teach against Original Sin Doctrine (quote Ezekiel 18:20 against that doctrine). I teach against the various misuses of the Tanakh by the New Testament authors (whomever they were). And I teach against any form of atonement which is a violation to the levitical code of offering outright.

I believe God is One, Spiritual, Not Mortal, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent. I believe that even the evil of our world has purpose in the end (as did when Joseph of the coat of many colors was thrown into the well by his own brothers, such evil was what brought about the salvation of all of Egypt and his family) even if that momentary evil is not realized as useful to hedonistic man.

I believe that all spirits/messengers are from God for purpose. The Tanakh teaches that even "evil" (relative to human viewpoint alone) spirits are sent by the LORD. Even the messenger known as Satan was commanded by, limited by, and created by God according to the Tanakh scripture. I believe the Christian Orthodox viewpoint of Satan to be blasphemous (it give authority to Satan, which is labeled a fallen angel which would make God an imperfect Creator).

I believe that God set before mankind both the life and death, good and evil but that we are to a great extent the products of enculturation, indoctrination, genetics, and nurturing. (Nurture/Nature.) I do not accept the term "free will" until someone tells us by what that will/choice is free of. Is it free from environmental impact, educational impact, or other? If a variable is not found by which our will is free of, then defacto the term "free will" is meaningless. I have yet to hear by what variable our will is in fact free of in every instance I have asked this.

I believe the early teachings of Yehshua of Nazareth are of the teachings of Hillel. In fact it is believed that Yehshua was a student of Hillel and that the Golden Rule as well as other teachings which history has said are of Yehshua were in fact of Hillel's school and his teachings. I do not accept that a finite is equal to a God which claimed to not be finite/mortal. Nor do I accept that a man who claims to be limited in mind, body, and power and denies equality to God (my Father is greater than I) is equal to God in any measureable way. To claim such is to make a meaningless argument which is not defensible.

I believe that the levitical law (which was in place during Yehshua's life due to a temple existing) would decree that in every single way to offer a human upon a cross is barberic and blasphemous to God and not atoning/salvatory in any way.

I believe that the genealogical records of Yehshua are exceeding poor if they are trying to lay claim to messiahship according to the Tanakh's proviso's.

I believe that the New Testament, far from agreeing upon whom Yehshua is/was, disagrees at various points. One labels Yehshua directly as a man ("the man Christ Jesus") while another says things which hint that he believed Yehshua to be God ("Word was God"). I do not accept that this document in any place denotes that the holy spirit is separate from God Himself, how would one go about arguing the separation point between two omnipresent entities anyways?

I especially do not accept that the texts Rome collected are infallible. An EASILY prooftexted example is the textual history of 1 John 5:7 which even Christian scholars have removed from the text.

I believe that Paul's message is exceedingly different from Yehshua's/Hillel's message in totality.

I believe that either through historical error, scribal error, or other, that even the Tanakh contains errors from that which the prophets heard from God. Anyone reading the Skeptic's Annotated Bible who can believe it is without error is delusional.

I believe that the Church's history of barberic actions and suppression of scientific relative truths denotes exactly what and of whom it is of.

I believe that the Creator (be it mindless fusion system of our solar system or Sentient All Powerful Being) gave us the ability to question so that we would not be servant to false mangod's and false churches, so that we would not be sitting in a church in simple ignorance and acceptance that the Earth is upon Pillars and the center of the universe, was created in six 24hr periods, and that we must take part in a cannibalistic rite in order to have salvation.

I believe that Yehshua was a man, a son of God, an image of God in flesh, but so is any other man born on the Earth by definition of being of Adam.

I believe it was a pagan lie adopted by the Early Church, a form of Persian dualism (trinity vs. satan), which allowed that Yehshua was "God the Son." I also believe the entire "virgin birth, Son of God, died, resurrected," story is pagan in origin in totality. At least it is certain that the Tanakh does not speak of a virgin giving birth and neither does the Tanakh speak of a mangod's existence ever taking place (in fact such a belief is heretical to the teachings of the Tanakh).

I believe that the lie which is the Christian Orthodox "hell" was created along with the lie/mythos which is the fallen demi-angel god which guards and commands it. A manipulation/mistranslation of Isaiah's morning star reference. Temporal sin generating eternal punishment cannot be justified unless you are a philosophical moron.

I believe that there is nothing standing between God and man except ignorance. (My people perish from lack of knowledge.)

I think the author of Hebrews (whomever he was) is the easiest of the New Testament authors to disprove as a liar and manipulator of the Tanakh. So easy it pains me to even bring it up again.

I believe that Omniscience by definition would contain all knowledge of all life, that which has been, is, or shall be. And by definition would not carry with it only the perspective of a single carpenter's son's death upon a cross but the perspective of any lifeform which has, is, or shall exist within the Omniscience. By default, whatever we have done to anyone we have done unto Omniscience.

I think it illogical that a person being temporarily tortured upon a cross for a few hours and then coming back from death would be a greater payment then a few million years in a hell, aflame and tortured as the Othodox claim. And to claim such is utter philosophical ignorance.

I find it extremely funny that Yehshua of Nazareth is called the "morning star" in Revelation and that this might be a hint.

I teach that YHVH is personal to those that seek Him, and impersonal to those that do not. So far from accepting the "personal God" of Orthodox claim, I teach that God is relative to His peoples' perspective of Him (also perhaps a reason for conflicting religions, human subjectivity).

Whew, any questions?

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

At least admit that the democratically created works of Rome's Church might not be the work of YHVH, for it in totality changes the law of sacrifice (dismisses it) and in totality takes that which was once an abomination (human pagan sacrifice without priest or temple upon a cross) and attempts to define it as salvatory.The death of Yehshua was due to the request of the High Priest. He, Himself, was, is and always will be The Temple. Rome did not invent salvation, by grace through faith in The Only Begotton of The Father, God did. I mean, even in context of myself I admit that it is in totality a guess at what is and is not the Word of God, for unless a man is in fact inspired by God, that man does not know what is of God (and even an inspired man would not know whether it was God or another which spoke to him).That is due entirely to the fact that The Holy Spirit is not able to communicate with someone who is at odds with The Word of God, as you are, since you are still at enmity with Him.I realize you have claimed at other points to be a prophet of this mangod, and all I can say to that is so be it, mental disease asside for a moment (which is of course a possibility) there is no way for you to personally know if what has revealed itself to you is in fact YHVH, God, or another and anything telling you different is delusional on your part.

When God spoke to Abraham to kill his child, there was in fact no way that Abraham knew it was the voice of God, that is why Abraham questioned God all the way through it.

That is also why Abraham questioned God when He came to him and told him that He was about to destroy S&G.You bring up an excellent point. Who (according to your belief) was Abraham speaking to, and feeding, on His way to Sodom and Gommorah?I guess you do not realize that God is without change under Jewish doctrine? Perfection does not change to imperfection and by definition that is all that perfection would have to change into.Yehshua was not imperfect. He was God, in the flesh, but walked as a man, under the covenants which God made with men, fulfilling them, and cut The Greatest Covenant in Gethsemene, the night before He yielded to the terms of that covenant.If a man does not question that which is a lie, then he would (much like you are pagan) be servant to a hollow lie.I didn't say you shouldn't question that which you 'think' or 'know,' but that you've elevated what you think that you know to a point where you allow it pre-eminence above The Lord.Then he was not messiah of the Tanakh, the house does not pass through the lineage of the mother.So The Seed which came from The Lord (The Root of David, in fact also The Root of Abraham, indeed even Adam) counts (in your little mind) as nothing? Nothing? Yehshua inherited His Father's Throne, by birth, even though He had it from eternity.He is a son of God by being human.But He is The Only Begotton Son of God by Conception.We are mortal and God is not.If He chose to lay down His Life, can you stop Him, are you greater than Him?What more does a man have than his knowledge base as to make a just and reasonable decision?

Are you suggesting that you have a means by which you make decisions which is not based upon your utterly and in totaity stupid insipid arguments based upon the doctrine of Rome's false church and false blasphemous texts?No, I'm not just suggesting, I'm telling you that we have that which you desire, without even knowing that it is available to you. We have The Inward Witness of The Holy Ghost. We have A More Sure Word of Prophecy than any eyewitness account to The Voice which was heard on The Holy Mount:
"And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

We don't follow cleverly devised fables of men who study and think that they know something. We follow The Living God, who loves all of His Sons and desires that they come to Him. The only way that they can do so is through The One and Only Begotton Son, Yehshua. Otherwise they are just following their own 'knowledge' and not getting their full inheritance.

[godrulz]

Thank you JOM for an elaboration of what you believe (syncretism). It is appreciated.

Are these beliefs unique to yourself? It seems it does not really matter what any of us believe; we will be OK in the end.

It is clear that you are outside biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity. This probably does not bother you since you have dismissed Christianity as corrupted. I do feel that the Deity of Christ, the atonement, the resurrection of Christ are salvific issues.

The one thing I agree with you on is that the Augustinian 'original sin' doctrine is not true. I am a minority among evangelicals on this point.

The Christian understanding is that the Messiah is the God-Man (Is. 9:6; 10:21). In the incarnation, He is one person with two natures (100% Deity; 100% humanity). He is unique. This is why some verses correctly say He is God, and others correc