Stop Making Excuses

[wickwoman]

A discussion a week or more ago with Purex got me thinking along these lines. He said something to the effect that what we think of God is really an extension of our own psyche. This is a very general excerpt from the discussion which I hope he doesn’t mind I repeat but it bears further discussion.

I will make a general assumption here that none of us has ever met God personally. Based on that assumption I will also agree with Purex’s statement above. What we think about God is truly a figment of our imagination. This isn’t to say that God doesn’t exist, however, we don’t REALLY KNOW what or who he/she is.

Now, you can say the Bible describes God very well, however, you will first have to make an assumption that the Bible is true. This assumption will be based on your desire for it to be true or not; the evidence you have or haven’t seen to its truthfulness; your own personal “gullability” or lack thereof (in other words, are you a person who requires strict proof, a little bit of proof, or none at all in order to accept something); your personal experiences which would prepare you to accept that the Bible is true; and, I believe the most important reason of all, your faith in your own inner feelings and beliefs i.e., your ability to trust your own judgment. There are other factors which also affect a person’s decision to accept the Bible or not but they are too many to cover completely here.

I read a wonderful quote today by JosephofMessiah in another thread:

“Not to mention ignorant Christians who actually think that Christianity has some sort of consensus viewpoint of God and doesn't realize that there are so many branches of Christianity you can basically believe anything you want to believe and still be called a Christian. Your ‘personal branch’ of Christianity is no more valid nor backed by scripture than other branches, and I can assure you that the various understandings of scriptures are the reasons for these various branches of theology.”

I know most Christians would beg to differ with JofM here, however, I’d have to agree wholeheartedly with this one statement of his. Let’s be frank. If you are a Christian, you decided what kind of Christian you wanted to be. Whether you decided on your particular “brand” due to the mere convenience of it because it was a religion handed down to you by your parents or whether you stumbled across your brand because you were searching for something that fit you just right, you chose it.

“Every holy person seems to have a different doctrine and practice, but there's really only one work.”

-Rumi (Translated by Coleman Barks)

Whenever a fundamentalist Christian expresses a bigoted or prejudicial attitude towards another human being – i.e. homosexuals, for instance, they sometimes try to excuse their bad behavior by blaming it on their religion. However, there are mainstream Christian religions which do not condemn homosexual behavior and, if that fundamentalist Christian did not feel personally offended or threatened by homosexuality, they would most likely have chosen one of those “non-bigoted” religions.

There are Christian religions which do not send “everyone else” to Hell because they believe in a benevolent all loving, all powerful God who loves everyone, regardless of their country of origin, color of their skin, sexual orientation or any of the other myriad of reasons the “fundamentalist” God hates everyone else. Hard to imagine, isn’t it?

You have a choice. You want the rest of the world to think you are bound up by some universal truth but the real truth is, YOU HAVE A CHOICE. You made that choice based on what you already believed. You didn’t go to God with a blank and open mind. You have some preconceived ideas about who you thought God was and you picked a religion that fitted those ideas the best. Even if you didn’t get the chance to make an active choice, you make that choice every time you go to church on Sunday.

A fundamentalist Christian has to fight every day against many factors in order to continue a faulty system of beliefs:

1. The beliefs and opinions of others
2. Their own personal, inner feelings which have often been suppressed and ignored
3. Logic and reasoning
4. The natural world in which we live
5. REALITY

My advice? Try going with the flow for a while. There’s no danger of getting lost. All paths lead to
LOVE.

“For years I pulled my own existence out of emptiness.
Then one swoop, one swing of the arm, that work is over.
Free of who I was, free of presence, free of dangerous fear, hope, free of mountainous wanting.
The here-and-now mountain is a tiny piece of a piece of straw blown off into emptiness.”

-Rumi (Translated by Coleman Barks)

[Freak]

Shorten your posts, Wickedwoman.

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Freak
Shorten your posts, Wickedwoman.

Well, she's gotta have room to slide all those lies in...

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

Lotta hot air in that head, she just need to let a little bit out to relieve the pressure!



Her forehead does look a little swollen, doesn't it?

[Neophyte]

Originally posted by wickwoman
There are Christian religions which do not send “everyone else” to Hell ...

Last time I checked, religions don't send people to Hell. They haven't the power. People go there on their own steam.

... because they believe in a benevolent all loving, all powerful God who loves everyone, regardless of their country of origin, color of their skin, sexual orientation or any of the other myriad of reasons the “fundamentalist” God hates everyone else. Hard to imagine, isn’t it?

Yes. Politically correct, feel-good-now, no one is responsible for their actions philosophy is not found in the bible.

You have a choice. You want the rest of the world to think you are bound up by some universal truth but the real truth is, YOU HAVE A CHOICE.

Christians would agree. Faith is founded on choice. I *chose* to believe in Christ. I *chose* to follow God's laws. If we didn't have the power to choose, it would be a hollow relationship indeed.

You made that choice based on what you already believed. You didn’t go to God with a blank and open mind. You have some preconceived ideas about who you thought God was and you picked a religion that fitted those ideas the best.

Actually, belief is a substantial and difficult step for most Christians. It takes courage, self-effacement, and willingness to submit to God. It doesn't represent an 'easy route' or 'path of least resistance'. It is not a 'convenience' in any way. Which is more than I can say for the politically correct, feel good, all paths lead to love philosophy which you seem to follow.

[rfburnhertz]

Your post is way too long to respond to all of it. So I'll just respond in general. Along with a few questions probrably.

I take the overall point of your post to be that we cannot know truth. That is at least what I took from it.

>> Now, you can say the Bible describes God very well, however, you will first have to make an assumption that the Bible is true. This assumption will be based on your desire for it to be true or not; the evidence you have or haven’t seen to its truthfulness; your own personal “gullability” or lack thereof (in other words, are you a person who requires strict proof, a little bit of proof, or none at all in order to accept something); your personal experiences which would prepare you to accept that the Bible is true; and, I believe the most important reason of all, your faith in your own inner feelings and beliefs i.e., your ability to trust your own judgment. There are other factors which also affect a person’s decision to accept the Bible or not but they are too many to cover completely here. <<

You are stating the above as known fact.
Is it fact or is it your assumption?

Could there be personal experiances which would prepare you to reject the bible? Your faith in things ouside of God? Your faith in your own inner feeling. Your faith in your judgement?

Could there be other factors as well which lead you to reject the bible?

Why must I 'assume' the bible is true? Why is it I cannot actually KNOW it is true?

>>I read a wonderful quote today by JosephofMessiah in another thread<<

I see nothing wonderful about the statement, I do see however that he doesn't know or understand what it is he is saying.

As an example:
>>Not to mention ignorant Christians who actually think that Christianity has some sort of consensus viewpoint of God and doesn't realize that there are so many branches of Christianity you can basically believe anything you want to believe and still be called a Christian. <<

This is not true.

First, understand that 99% of the "branches" agree on 99% of the issues, that is upon the essentials.

Those outside of the 99% are in most cases considered by everyone other than themselves to be outside of Christianity. Because they reject essentials, such as who Jesus Chrsit is, did Jesus rise from the dead, etc....

>>Whether you decided on your particular “brand” due to the mere convenience of it because it was a religion handed down to you by your parents or whether you stumbled across your brand because you were searching for something that fit you just right, you chose it. <<

I choose no brand.
I rejected the "brand" my parents handed down to me. This caused much of my family to reject me, it would have been much easier to have stayed in what my family handed down to me.

I choose the "brand" I choose because the truth of it had been demonstrated to me. Not the hypothothis of, not the theory of, the truth of.

>>“Every holy person seems to have a different doctrine and practice, but there's really only one work.”

-Rumi (Translated by Coleman Barks)<<

Did this person know holy people?
I know I don't know any holy people, I know only sinners. Either sinners who reject God or sinners who accept the gift of God.

>> There are Christian religions which do not send “everyone else” to Hell because they believe in a benevolent all loving, all powerful God who loves everyone, regardless of their country of origin, color of their skin, sexual orientation or any of the other myriad of reasons the “fundamentalist” God hates everyone else.<<

Are you then under the assumption that Christianity requires a person to be of a specific race, with a heavenly green card?

God does not hate "everyone" else.

Seeing as you are so very familiar with the written Word of God and Christianity I assume you will know what I mean when I say,
"For God so loved the world".

>>YOU HAVE A CHOICE.<<

You are right, we agree.

I have a choice. The very same choice you have.
We all have the choice to reject God or to accept God.

We made different choices.

You post is funny in that you hide your reason for posting.

Your reason for posting this post is to evangelize. Which is fine, but you could have been honest about it.

You posted to tell us 'what it is and how it shall be'.

Have a heck of an eternity.

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

That's mean, I take it back, I am sorry.
If there is any swelling, it is from pounding her head against a wall, because such thoughts keep coming out of it, and they make no sense.
She's baffled.




Now, now...
remember we were all 'baffled' (read:lost) at one time.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

Please read a Bible, someday.
I promise, you will learn something.




You assume wrong. I've read the Bible many times but thanks for the suggestion.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Neophyte
Last time I checked, religions don't send people to Hell. They haven't the power. People go there on their own steam.

Actually you don't really know where "they" go you just hope they will go to Hell.


Originally posted by Neophyte
Yes. Politically correct, feel-good-now, no one is responsible for their actions philosophy is not found in the bible.

Actually, it is. Read 1 Corinthians 13 and read the story of the prodigal son or just about anything Jesus said about love.

Originally posted by Neophyte
Christians would agree. Faith is founded on choice. I *chose* to believe in Christ. I *chose* to follow God's laws. If we didn't have the power to choose, it would be a hollow relationship indeed.

No you choose to be a Methodist, Baptist, Pentacostal or whatever. You would like to believe that the choice is founded on some fact, however, you have no more idea what the real truth is than anyone. As to God's law, you would have to ask God and he/she doesn't talk out loud much. I would suggest you consult that small, still inner voice and see if you get any insight.

Originally posted by Neophyte
Actually, belief is a substantial and difficult step for most Christians. It takes courage, self-effacement, and willingness to submit to God. It doesn't represent an 'easy route' or 'path of least resistance'. It is not a 'convenience' in any way. Which is more than I can say for the politically correct, feel good, all paths lead to love philosophy which you seem to follow.

Actually, many fundamentalists I know react for the most part out of fear. As for courage, it takes a lot of courage to love someone that your Christians friends scorn, to accept someone who behaves or looks differently than you. It takes courage to risk having nobody who wants to sit with you at the next Sunday school picnic because your are spotted having lunch with an openly gay man or woman. Ask Jesus how it feels. He got a lot of criticism for doing things like that.

[Neophyte]

RF,
Nice post! :) Kinda funny that you start out with "Your post is too long" though...pretty funny considering the length of yours! ;)

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
You are stating the above as known fact.
Is it fact or is it your assumption?

Which part of the paragraph are you speaking of? Possibly you could point out which one of the sentences you would like to know about.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz Could there be personal experiances which would prepare you to reject the bible? Your faith in things ouside of God? Your faith in your own inner feeling. Your faith in your judgement?

Could there be other factors as well which lead you to reject the bible?

ABSOLUTELY.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
Why must I 'assume' the bible is true? Why is it I cannot actually KNOW it is true?

Unless you can dig up the myriad of authors and then interview eye witnesses to the events recorded there, I believe you are stuck with assuming.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
This is not true.

First, understand that 99% of the "branches" agree on 99% of the issues, that is upon the essentials.

Those outside of the 99% are in most cases considered by everyone other than themselves to be outside of Christianity. Because they reject essentials, such as who Jesus Chrsit is, did Jesus rise from the dead, etc....


Are you stating fact or opinion? Please give the source of your statistics.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
I choose no brand. . . .

I choose the "brand" . . .

Which is it. You chose or you didn't choose?

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
Are you then under the assumption that Christianity requires a person to be of a specific race, with a heavenly green card?

I am aware of the prevelance of Christianity in certain regions and, as I am sure you are aware, it is practiced predominantly in the west. In eastern countries it is extremely rare.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
God does not hate "everyone" else.
Seeing as you are so very familiar with the written Word of God and Christianity I assume you will know what I mean when I say,
"For God so loved the world".


Now this is something we can agree on. You and I must serve same God. No, that's just crazy talking.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
Your post is funny in that you hide your reason for posting.

Your reason for posting this post is to evangelize. Which is fine, but you could have been honest about it.


Now, why would I bother evangelizing for a religion that already assumes everyone is saved? I post for the same reason everyone else does, I assume, and that it because I want to be heard. Why did you reply to my post? Did you want to evangelize or did you just want to be heard?

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
You posted to tell us 'what it is and how it shall be'.

I write in my professional career. People who write professionally know that to write something as if you are just making a suggestion, however, don't want to be too forceful or pushy is a bit ineffective. The art of persuasion requires that you first be convinced of what you are writing about. If you are not, you don't have much hope of convincing anyone else.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
Have a heck of an eternity.

So sincere, so sweet. Wow! Thanks a heck of a lot!

[rfburnhertz]

>>Actually you don't really know where "they" go you just hope they will go to Hell.<<

No Christian would hope "they" go to hell.
Even God doesn't want anyone to go to hell.

Remember... as you said...
we choose.

I choose an eternity with the God of all creation (yes... you too are among all that He has created) and so far you have choosen an eternity seperated from the God of all creation.

You don't have much time, in case you have noticed our days move quickly. And once you eternity begins, it's to late to change your mind.

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by Neophyte
Kinda funny that you start out with "Your post is too long" though...pretty funny considering the length of yours! ;)

I know, but half of it is quotes from her post.

I may have had a bit more to say than I had first thought.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
No Christian would hope "they" go to hell.
Even God doesn't want anyone to go to hell.

Remember... as you said...
we choose.

I choose an eternity with the God of all creation (yes... you too are among all that He has created) and so far you have choosen an eternity seperated from the God of all creation.

You don't have much time, in case you have noticed our days move quickly. And once you eternity begins, it's to late to change your mind.

If you so desparately wanted ALL the world to be saved, you would spend the remainder of your time before "eternity" begins to find proof that they won't be damned after all, just to ease your mind. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you were wrong and all the world could be saved? Or maybe being right is more important that the salvation of the world.

[Neophyte]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Actually you don't really know where "they" go you just hope they will go to Hell.

Where in my post does it say *I* hope people go to hell? I was merely pointing out that religions don't send people there. Why so vitriolic?



Actually, it is. Read 1 Corinthians 13 and read the story of the prodigal son or just about anything Jesus said about love.

Point taken. But I think you've misinterpreted mine. My point was that just because something feels good, or is popular, or is what a person happens to want in a given moment, does not necessarily make it right.

Christ didn't say "all paths lead to love" - he said "I am the way, the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father but through me." He *did* command us to love one another as we love ourselves. He *did* command us to forgive others just as we are forgiven. He *did* command us not to judge "lest we too be judged."

And, as you correctly point out from 1 Corinthians, if I have faith that can move mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.

No you choose to be a Methodist, Baptist, Pentacostal or whatever. You would like to believe that the choice is founded on some fact, however, you have no more idea what the real truth is than anyone. As to God's law, you would have to ask God and he/she doesn't talk out loud much. I would suggest you consult that small, still inner voice and see if you get any insight.

You make many assumptions about what I choose. Again, why so vitriolic?

As for the small, still inner voice. I did consult it. It told me there is a God. I *chose* to believe in him. My choice was founded on faith. I didn't blindly follow what felt good, or what others told me to do. I spent *years* searching and figuring out what I believed. And I had more reason than most to dislike Christianity.


Actually, many fundamentalists I know react for the most part out of fear.

Yes. Many do. And many nonbelievers react to Christians based on lack of understanding (because of past experiences, inappropriate conduct of Christians they know, stereotypes, etc).

As for courage, it takes a lot of courage to love someone that your Christians friends scorn, to accept someone who behaves or looks differently than you. It takes courage to risk having nobody who wants to sit with you at the next Sunday school picnic because your are spotted having lunch to an openly gay man or woman. Ask Jesus how it feels. He got a lot of criticism for doing things like that.

I agree - wholeheartedly. Been there and done that. But you must also admit it takes courage to pronounce yourself a Christian in a society that thinks them backward, ignorant, bigoted and hateful. Not all Christians conform to the description you've given.

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Which part of the paragraph are you speaking of? Possibly you could point out which one of the sentences you would like to know about.


As I indicated, it was directly above. Directly.


ABSOLUTELY.

Then, if such is evidence against Christianity it at the very same time evidence against your claims.
So now, we are equally right and equally wrong.
It's just like the song Imagine...
Wow.. what a beautiful world.




Way not to answer the question.

[QUOTE]Are you stating fact or opinion? Please give the source of your statistics.

Fact.
Off the top O' my head I believe it is found in Right from wrong by Josh Mcdowell. The poll was conducted by Gallop. As I have the time (if I would stop posting I likely would have the time) I'll see if I can confirm.

Which is it. You chose or you didn't choose?


I believe you know what I mean.

I am aware of the prevelance of Christianity in certain regions and, as I am sure you are aware, it is practiced predominantly in the west. In eastern countries it is extremely rare.

Okay, maybe you have to speak (type :) ) more slowly for me. But I don't see what this has to do with it. Thoug, I suspect you are saying that you do in fact consider Christianity to be full of bigiots.
Please, expand your thoughts here.

Now this is something we can agree on. You and I must serve same God. No, that's just crazy talking.

Crazy talk... I agree.

Now, why would I bother evangelizing for a religion that already assumes everyone is saved?

As I said, I don't think it is wrong of you.

All people of all world views attempt to win people over.

As you know, Christians attempt to win people to Christ on a regualr basis (or atleast we should).

I write in my professional career. People who write professionally know that to write something as if you are just making a suggestion, however, don't want to be too forceful or pushy is a bit ineffective. The art of persuasion requires that you first be convinced of what you are writing about. If you are not, you don't have much hope of convincing anyone else.

But, you just told me you post to be heard. You didn't mention persuasion. So, you did post to evangelize. Okay, I just wanted to confirm.


So sincere, so sweet. Wow! Thanks a heck of a lot!

Your welcome a heck of a lot.

Though I didn't know we were attempting to fluff each other up.

How's this...

I don't think you forehead looks swollen.

I think they were just being wise-cracks.

Now, don't tell me that wasn't sweet.

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by wickwoman
If you so desparately wanted ALL the world to be saved, you would spend the remainder of your time before "eternity" begins to find proof that they won't be damned after all, just to ease your mind. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you were wrong and all the world could be saved? Or maybe being right is more important that the salvation of the world.

The sad fact is, everyone cannot be saved because everyone does not want to be saved.

The evidence is there. I cannot convince anyone of it.

When I feel being right is important, I cease to speak. I don't plead the case.

Like when my wife and I argue, if I know I am wrong and don't want to admit it, i just say 'whatever' like a stupid little kid, and shut up.

Besides, weather you know it or not your battle with truth is not against me or any other Christians. Your battle is against the very God who created you.

You can't win.

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by wickwoman A fundamentalist Christian has to fight every day against many factors in order to continue a faulty system of beliefs... You might want to go easy on using "fundamentalist", a pejoratively loaded term... just a thought, but if you prefer to use it, it's a free country.

Yes, there are things that challenge anyone's beliefs, including yours. Pluralism in the ambient culture, loss of emotional zeal every now and then, a weak understanding of the premisses of one's own beliefs due to intellectual inadequacy or laziness--they take their toll. This is why the Bible tells us to grow in faith. It says we see through a glass and darkly, so perfect understanding is not assumed.

But there are things that don't allow for doubt. Covenant loyalty to the God we trust, and aesthetic awe (worship), just don't go with skepticism or worry. And there are many of your "fundamentalists" who are strong in faith, hope, and love. Perhaps you are conveniently ignoring the exceptions to your rule?

[prodigalson]

There are plenty of people on this board that know God personaly, they might not have met Him, you know, 'face to face', but know Him personally nonetheless. Those same poeple also know that the Bible is true, not think it is, not assume it is, but know as sure as they are standing there. You might not want to except that, you might not want to believe it, you can even say "I(wickwoman) can't tell someone they are wrong b/c I don't know.", BUT you can't say "Nobody really knows about God." because there are people here that do know, you just refuse to accept that. I know without a doubt God is real and the Bible is true b/c God opened my eyes and showed me that fact so you can't sit there and try and tell me I can't be sure just b/c you are not sure.

You know, if the "fundamental christians" are wrong than in a sense that is great news b/c billions of people will not suffer the wrath of God, and if we all go to heaven than great. Unfortunatly, that is a dream world and no matter how much we might want something to be, it still will not make it happen.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Neophyte
Where in my post does it say *I* hope people go to hell? I was merely pointing out that religions don't send people there. Why so vitriolic?

If you believe that someone is going to Hell you must hope for it because it is not founded on any personal experience of yours, in other words, you've not met anyone who has been there. Therefore, you have faith the people will go to Hell. Hope is the foundation of faith. When you loose hope in Hell, you will also loose faith in it.


Originally posted by Neophyte
Not all Christians conform to the description you've given.

This thread was clearly directed at fundamentalists. If you are not one then you shouldn't be offended.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by rfburnhertz

I don't think you forehead looks swollen.

I think they were just being wise-cracks.

Now, don't tell me that wasn't sweet.

Thanks, I can stop wearing bangs now.

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Thanks, I can stop wearing bangs now.

:)
No, no.
Keep the bangs. imo, women look silly with no bangs.

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by wickwoman
If you believe that someone is going to Hell you must hope for it because it is not founded on any personal experience of yours, in other words, you've not met anyone who has been there. Therefore, you have faith the people will go to Hell. Hope is the foundation of faith. When you loose hope in Hell, you will also loose faith in it.




This thread was clearly directed at fundamentalists. If you are not one then you shouldn't be offended.
We will have to take a vote to be sure...
but I do think this is the most silly thing you have yet said in this thread you began.

btw... I am still wanting to know from you why we humanbeings cannot know if the bible is or is not true...........

[shilohproject]

Originally posted by Neophyte
Christians would agree. Faith is founded on choice. I *chose* to believe in Christ. Actually, this may be a huge overstatement.

A great many so-called Christians would, in fact, disagree; they are called Calvinists, and they maintain that you/I/we "choose" nothing at all, that we have no ability to make such choices. Interesting, huh?:cool:

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
We will have to take a vote to be sure...
but I do think this is the most silly thing you have yet said in this thread you began.

Why don't you point out exactly what is silly about the statement and why it is silly if you'd like to have a for real discussion. Or, are you just insulting for the sake of insult?

Originally posted by rfburnhertz btw... I am still wanting to know from you why we humanbeings cannot know if the bible is or is not true...........

I addition to what I've already said i.e. - you can't dig up the authors of the Bible, nor can you interview eye witnesses to the happenings recorded in it - I would also add that I once believed that all the Bible was true. In fact, I "knew" it was true. Then I stop sheltering myself from real people and the real world and discovered I had made an error in judgment. This is why I say you can't "know." Because there must be something in your life you've known before but discovered later was a mistake.

Belief in the whole Bible requires you to create a system of beliefs that requires too much defense. When you find yourself defending your belief system against the world, your co-workers, your own inner thoughts and feelings, scientific facts, logic and reasoning, you should re-evaluate its validity.

[Flake]

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
No Christian would hope "they" go to hell.
Even God doesn't want anyone to go to hell.


Why did he make hell then? Would it not make more sense to allow the folly of mankind to continue as it does, then on judgment day he can show all the unbelievers that they where mistaken, pointing at the cloudy expanse of heaven, and say "Well, here I am, you didnt believe did you, what say you now?", to which the infidels would reply "Oh ****, there is a god, nice to meet you.", and an all loving god would say, "No matter, in ya come kids, youve been silly but I luvz ya, please, take a cloud, we got hot soup tonite, yummy! :Big God Grin:".

But no, straight to eternal damnation as, yes you guessed it, punishment. A punishment that does not even serve as deterant example, punishment for what reason? Pleasure? Justice? What does this teach us? Should parents kill their children if they dont do what they want? Little Jonny didnt kiss me au revoir this morning, now he must die? Where does forgiveness come in? I see none. Your god doesnt forgive. Its the christian voice in unison chanting "THEY DONT DESERVE HEAVEN, why should they get what I get when I put all that effort in to be christian? Not fair, not fair!!!"

The prodigal son springs to mind.

[RogerB]

Originally posted by Flake
The prodigal son springs to mind.

And why not John 3:16?

[wickwoman]

Dear Flake:

The prodigal son is an excellent example. Let's review the story - the son was ungrateful, the father was loving. The son left with his money, the father was loving. The son lived a life of drinking and debauchery, the father was loving. The son used up all his money and lived with pigs, the father was loving. The son decided he'd go back and be his father's slave, the father was loving.

There is one in the story who was not loving, but jealous - the other brother. Some Christians are that other brother.

[Flake]

Originally posted by RogerB
And why not John 3:16?

And why not what? There is no evidence of forgiveness in this passage. It is basically a veiled threat.

[prodigalson]

Originally posted by wickwoman
I addition to what I've already said i.e. - you can't dig up the authors of the Bible, nor can you interview eye witnesses to the happenings recorded in it - I would also add that I once believed that all the Bible was true. In fact, I "knew" it was true. Then I stop sheltering myself from real people and the real world and discovered I had made an error in judgment. This is why I say you can't "know." Because there must be something in your life you've known before but discovered later was a mistake.

Wrong. Just b/c you thought the Bible was true and now don't doesn't mean there aren't many people who know the Bible is true. If you knew it was true, you would still believe it, but since you don't, you just thought it was true.

Many people here know without a doubt the Bible is true and God is real, just like Adam did, Noah, Moses, David, the 11, Paul, etc. Nobody could walk up to them and say, "You can't be sure." Our Faith is that confidant.

You can say, "I am not sure about God.", but you can't say "Nobody can really know." Whether you believe us or not b/c some do know. Just b/c you don't know something doesn't mean others don't either.

[prodigalson]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Flake:

The prodigal son is an excellent example. Let's review the story - the son was ungrateful, the father was loving. The son left with his money, the father was loving. The son lived a life of drinking and debauchery, the father was loving. The son used up all his money and lived with pigs, the father was loving. The son decided he'd go back and be his father's slave, the father was loving.

There is one in the story who was not loving, but jealous - the other brother. Some Christians are that other brother.

So what? Does that make all of us hope people go to hell? Does that make the Bible not true? Does that make people not know if the Bible is true and Jesus Christ is the only way?

[Shaun]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Flake:

The prodigal son is an excellent example. Let's review the story - the son was ungrateful, the father was loving. The son left with his money, the father was loving. The son lived a life of drinking and debauchery, the father was loving. The son used up all his money and lived with pigs, the father was loving. The son decided he'd go back and be his father's slave, the father was loving.

There is one in the story who was not loving, but jealous - the other brother. Some Christians are that other brother.
Yet you ignore the main thrust, like most Universalists or other hedonist-love-blinded deists; the point of that passage is the mercy of God, that He would continue to love us despite our running away, and most importantly, that he always honored our wishes, let us run away, and let us come home running to Him on our own time and decisions.

Whether or not you decide to come home is up to you. He will be waiting there loving you when you come, but if you choose not to, He will honor your request.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Shaun
Whether or not you decide to come home is up to you. He will be waiting there loving you when you come, but if you choose not to, He will honor your request.

The son did come home. We will all come home. Truth/love is like that, you can't avoid it forever. That's what makes God omnipotent. He/she is ALL powerful. That means if God wants something, it happens.

You cling to some fantasy that a mere human gets the PLEASURE of burning in hell if he wants to? That God is doing us some favor by allowing us that LUXURY. That's a dream, no, a nightmare. Yes God's love is forced on us, thank God it is. You cannot avoid the laws of nature. Gravity just is. You don't have to believe in it. But, if you walk off a cliff, you'll fall. The same with God/love. He/she just is. You don't have to believe in him/her. You don't have to return the love. You are loved just the same. You are not punished for not knowing. That wouldn't be love at all.

[One Eyed Jack]

Keep telling yourself that tripe, wickwoman. We aren't buying it.

[attention]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Keep telling yourself that tripe, wickwoman. We aren't buying it.

What is your problem Jack?

What seems to bother you so much, that all you can do is condemn this nice woman.

Because she is not buying the lies you have been told, and you are telling yourself?

Take offense on the truth, eh?

Good luck to you, Jack!

Maybe one day you will face the truth, and you will undoubtly know that it is the truth.

The truth isn't offensive Jack, it is the other way around, it is you, who has taken offense in the truth, and you project that offense onto other people.

Perhaps one day you will reconsider what you hold to be true, and what not.

You are never to old to reconsider what you should and should not belief, and nobody will judge you for facing truth as it is.

You will raise above yourself, when you face truth. Your truth. The truth about yourself.

The truth is, that truth itself isn't offensive, you have only thought it was, and taken offense in the truth. And all you will ask yourself, why haven't I considered this to be the truth more earlier, why did I took offense in the truth?

You are entitled of knowing truth, just like anybody else.

Whenever that will be is up to you. You just take the time that you need. Any time as you please.

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by attention
What is your problem Jack?

No problem. What's yours?

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Why don't you point out exactly what is silly about the statement and why it is silly if you'd like to have a for real discussion. Or, are you just insulting for the sake of insult?


No, no...
Now, being that you began the thread I am making the assumption that you are serious about the topic.

If so, no game playing.

I'll show you my answer if you show me yours.


I addition to what I've already said i.e. - you can't dig up the authors of the Bible, nor can you interview eye witnesses to the happenings recorded in it - I would also add that I once believed that all the Bible was true. In fact, I "knew" it was true. Then I stop sheltering myself from real people and the real world and discovered I had made an error in judgment. This is why I say you can't "know." Because there must be something in your life you've known before but discovered later was a mistake.

Belief in the whole Bible requires you to create a system of beliefs that requires too much defense. When you find yourself defending your belief system against the world, your co-workers, your own inner thoughts and feelings, scientific facts, logic and reasoning, you should re-evaluate its validity.

This is what I was just speaking of.
You have not answered the question, you have dodged the question.

I'm sure you are able to understand that I am seeking an answer of fact from you, not your opinion.

An answer which demonstrates that I cannot know the bible is true.

I don't mind having a bit of fun in our disscusion here. You know, the forehead thing, the how sweet I am... etc.

However, no games. I'm not playing.

I know the game, I've seen it played before.

You clearly believe you have a knowledge beyond that of those of us who call ourselves Christian.

Please do share.
But I am NOT interested in your opinions.
I am asking you to demonstrate your claims.

You began this thread not asking questions but making statements of fact. Now I am asking you to demonstrate the truthfulness of your claims.

If you are unable to, then I thank you for your time and the brief discussion.

If you are able to, then I will be very amazed, and will be very happy to continue the conversation.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by wickwoman
You cling to some fantasy that a mere human gets the PLEASURE of burning in hell if he wants to?
Sure, it's in the Bible. Of course, I don't really consider it a pleasure. I'm not into masochism.

That God is doing us some favor by allowing us that LUXURY. That's a dream, no, a nightmare. Yes God's love is forced on us, thank God it is. You cannot avoid the laws of nature. Gravity just is. You don't have to believe in it. But, if you walk off a cliff, you'll fall. The same with God/love. He/she just is. You don't have to believe in him/her. You don't have to return the love. You are loved just the same.
I never said God's love was something that is turned on and off. In fact, God's love reaches those who deny Him.

You are not punished for not knowing. That wouldn't be love at all.
You know. I'm sorry, but that whole "well I wasn't totally sure about it, so I didn't accept God" thing is just baloney. As much as the Bible tells about stepping out in faith, you Universalists sure never do listen, now don't you?

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by attention
What is your problem Jack?

What seems to bother you so much, that all you can do is condemn this nice woman.

Because she is not buying the lies you have been told, and you are telling yourself?

Take offense on the truth, eh?

Good luck to you, Jack!

Maybe one day you will face the truth, and you will undoubtly know that it is the truth.


Being that what Jack believes is untrue and being that you know it is untrue then I am sure you will be kind enough to expose us all to the falsehoods of Jacks beliefs and demonstrate for us the "real" truth.

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by Flake
Why did he make hell then? Would it not make more sense to allow the folly of mankind to continue as it does, then on judgment day he can show all the unbelievers that they where mistaken, [SNIP] [/QUOTE}

Ahh...
I see that you are wiser than God.

[QUOTE]But no, straight to eternal damnation as, yes you guessed it, punishment. A punishment that does not even serve as deterant example, punishment for what reason? Pleasure? Justice?

It isn't a simple punishment. We all have an eternity to face. We can choose to spend this eternity with God or without Him.

Why would God force those who do not want to be with Him to spend eternity with Him?

God is Holy. An eternity with God will be spent in the presence of that perfect holiness.

An eternity apart from God will of course be a complete abscence of holiness. Hell has the attributes it does because of the abscence of God.

Its the christian voice in unison chanting "THEY DONT DESERVE HEAVEN,

Pssttt.......
No one deserves heaven.
Not me, not you, not anyone.
But God in His love and grace has made a way.

The option is there we can choose either heaven or hell.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
Pssttt.......
No one deserves heaven.
Not me, not you, not anyone.
But God in His love and grace has made a way.

The option is there we can choose either heaven or hell.
Amen. :thumb:

[wickwoman]

Dear Rfburnhertz:

The only game being played is in your head. You throw out insults and have no real reason for the criticism. How exactly would you like for me to prove to you that you are wrong? You and I both know that it won't happen. No matter what I offer your own human ego will continue to defend that vast terrain in your head of separateness.

The thread is founded on the following facts:

1. There are many branches of Christianity.
2. You can choose which one you want.
3. Some Christian churches focus on love, others on Hell and sin
4. If you focus on love, you will choose a church that does
5. If you focus on Hell, you will chose a church that does
6. If you are a bigot, you will go to church with bigots

The title "Stop Making Excuses" is to say this - you made the choice, now own up to it. So, if you are one of those people and, mind you, I have no idea if you are or not . . . It isn't God who is ugly and hateful - it is you. Those of us who know the true nature of a loving God are offended to hear you slander him/her so.

[RogerB]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Rfburnhertz:

The only game being played is in your head. You throw out insults and have no real reason for the criticism. How exactly would you like for me to prove to you that you are wrong? You and I both know that it won't happen. No matter what I offer your own human ego will continue to defend that vast terrain in your head of separateness.

The thread is founded on the following facts:

1. There are many branches of Christianity.
2. You can choose which one you want.
3. Some Christian churches focus on love, others on Hell and sin
4. If you focus on love, you will choose a church that does
5. If you focus on Hell, you will chose a church that does
6. If you are a bigot, you will go to church with bigots

The title "Stop Making Excuses" is to say this - you made the choice, now own up to it. So, if you are one of those people and, mind you, I have no idea if you are or not . . . It isn't God who is ugly and hateful - it is you. Those of us who know the true nature of a loving God are offended to hear you slander him/her so.

There may be many "branches" of Christianity but they have one thing in common: Jesus Christ. If they don't, they're not Christian.

Do you believe that Jesus is the only way to be restored to a harmonious relationship with our creator Father. Through His death and resurrection, He opened God's kingdom to us so that we may come into His presence as His forgiven and beloved sons and daughters?

[wickwoman]

Dear RogerB:

I believe the MAN Jesus was a collection of organs, skin and bones, just like you and me. I believe the CHRIST is the spirit of the living God who dwells in each and every person who lives or ever has. So, to answer the question. I do believe the Christ is the only way to God. To realize this essence of God in you is the way to find God. Everyone will realize the Christ. Everyone will realize God.

[RogerB]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear RogerB:

I believe the MAN Jesus was a collection of organs, skin and bones, just like you and me. I believe the CHRIST is the spirit of the living God who dwells in each and every person who lives or ever has. So, to answer the question. I do believe the Christ is the only way to God. To realize this essence of God in you is the way to find God. Everyone will realize the Christ. Everyone will realize God.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who, along with the Holy Spirit, has existed through all eternity with God the Father and that Jesus entered time and creation as a human being to reveal God and the nature of God's kingdom to us?

[wickwoman]

RogerB:

I believe that Jesus was a soul who had realized in a previous life or possibly earlier in his incarnation as Jesus the TRUTH that all of us are to realize. He then proceeded to speak of this truth and hopefully reveal the true nature of all souls. This is also very similar to the story of the Buddha who realized the truth and, along with his disciples, went about teaching of how to reach enlightenment. It has happened countless times throughout eternity. Shams e Tabritz was also possilby a realized soul. Many others that never made the history books. Possibly some are walking around right now. There could even be one posting on TOL.

[Flake]

Speaking off the top of my head here, Roger be kind, but...
The essential goodness of christianity is obvious, peace, love etc, but it cannot be reconciled with "threats". It just does not fit. Hell, inquisition, crusades, damnation...it all smells far too human.

The only, possibly bizzar, interpretation I can conclude is that EARTHLY life is more fullfilling following Jesus, but AFTERLIFE is for everyone, where a non believer can spend time reflecting, via conscience, on their earthly misadventures, a possible hell in itself if they have lived a bad life and now find themselves in heaven with A PURE HEART, but a memory of an IMPURE HEART. The Believer/follower of Jesus would not have this internal wrangling.

Just musing as I dont believe in a god, but this does sound attractive. This then negates a negative input from a loving god as it will be on your own head. You may say going to hell is on your own head, but, this would require a REJECTION of a person by god, which is equally irreconcilable with the ALL LOVING nature god is supposed to have. Do you see the quandary?
I would say that removal of a threat of hell would be more logical and conducive/seductive to possible converts, those on the fringe.

You may say what would stop a person from being a complete criminalesque antichrist if there where no threat of damnation or punishment. Well, surely a sincere adoption of Jesus' ways is more important than a threat induced adoption, if you see what I mean.

[prodigalson]

Far too human? Why would man write a book that says we(humans) are low-lifes scumbags and exalt God to the highest and that most people will go to hell? If man wrote the Bible with his own knowledge it would sound a lot like some of the posts in this thread i.e. all religions go to the same god, just be a good person and you'll work it out, and everyone goes to Heaven.

God created Hell for Satan and his demons, but if sinful man wants to follow his father the Devil to Hell than what is God supposed to do? Take away our Free Will?

[wickwoman]

Dear Prodigalson:

Man believes that continued separation from God - by whatever means - is the way to insure the continued existence of ego. Any attempt to put man back in God's graces is rejected by ego because ego fears that union with God = oblivion. Man has imagined this whole separation scenario thus the Bible - written by men has reflected that belief in many of the "uninspired" passages. There are glimpses of the truth in the Bible. Many of them were quotes of Jesus.

[RogerB]

Originally posted by Flake
And why not what? There is no evidence of forgiveness in this passage. It is basically a veiled threat.

No forgiveness? Every one of us deserves to go to hell and yet God offers us salvation through Jesus.

[claire]

Originally posted by wickwoman

The thread is founded on the following facts:

1. There are many branches of Christianity.
2. You can choose which one you want.
3. Some Christian churches focus on love, others on Hell and sin
4. If you focus on love, you will choose a church that does
5. If you focus on Hell, you will chose a church that does
6. If you are a bigot, you will go to church with bigots

The title "Stop Making Excuses" is to say this - you made the choice, now own up to it. So, if you are one of those people and, mind you, I have no idea if you are or not . . . It isn't God who is ugly and hateful - it is you. Those of us who know the true nature of a loving God are offended to hear you slander him/her so.

Well, there is only one thing in that statement that I slightly disagree with....and that would be to change No. 1. Christianity has one steadfast (that being Christ) which defines it, but you are right, within the "religion" there are many "sects", all claiming to be adherents of Christianity....and within those "sects" is held a different perception of the message, exactly as you pointed out.

Items 2-6 are a perfect analysis... kudos wickwoman!

Blessings,

Claire

[RogerB]

Originally posted by Flake
Speaking off the top of my head here, Roger be kind,.

I can be kind!


but...
The essential goodness of christianity is obvious, peace, love etc, but it cannot be reconciled with "threats". It just does not fit. Hell, inquisition, crusades, damnation...it all smells far too human.


But it's NOT a threat. It's hope for the hopeless. It's an offer of everlasting life with God in Heaven for the undeserving.


The only, possibly bizzar, interpretation I can conclude is that EARTHLY life is more fullfilling following Jesus,

This is true!


but AFTERLIFE is for everyone, where a non believer can spend time reflecting, via conscience, on their earthly misadventures, a possible hell in itself if they have lived a bad life and now find themselves in heaven with A PURE HEART, but a memory of an IMPURE HEART. The Believer/follower of Jesus would not have this internal wrangling.

Interesting perspective. It could be very much like this. But also consider that the non-believer, now with the knowledge that God is real, must live eternally separated from Him. Think of a child growing up alone but knowing that his parents live just around the corner.


Just musing as I dont believe in a god, but this does sound attractive. This then negates a negative input from a loving god as it will be on your own head. You may say going to hell is on your own head, but, this would require a REJECTION of a person by god,

No, it is the person who REJECTS God. You can't disbelieve in God and yet turn around and interpret His word to fit your distorted world.


which is equally irreconcilable with the ALL LOVING nature god is supposed to have. Do you see the quandary?

No quandry if you stop making incorrect assumptions.


I would say that removal of a threat of hell would be more logical and conducive/seductive to possible converts, those on the fringe.

You may say what would stop a person from being a complete criminalesque antichrist if there where no threat of damnation or punishment. Well, surely a sincere adoption of Jesus' ways is more important than a threat induced adoption, if you see what I mean.

Again, there is no threat.

[Flake]

Originally posted by RogerB
No forgiveness? Every one of us deserves to go to hell and yet God offers us salvation through Jesus.

This doesnt make sense and it is not forgivness, unless you are stating that gods creation is not perfect and not in his image, in fact riddled with sin straight from the factory, broke before you get it. Bit odd.

I think you are saying that the default state of mankind is one that is hellbound. Only god could have decreed this. No matter WHAT, god doesnt have to have it this way. God is saying that this creation he loves is going to hell as a default situation. Where is the love in that?
So, we only get love in return for the same, sort of an "Indian Giver" style of love? That is not sincere and this reeks of humanistic interpretation and values. There is no spiritual feel to this cold scenario, it is distasteful. Its rather like living in a country that presumes guilt before innocence, being born in a jail until you can prove your integrity.

Originally posted by RogerB
But also consider that the non-believer, now with the knowledge that God is real, must live eternally separated from Him. Think of a child growing up alone but knowing that his parents live just around the corner.


Why? The parents, if they love the child, would go and retrieve it.
Why cant god find it in his heart to forgive this "prodigal son" now that they KNOW the truth?

The only way to know there is a god with 100% certainty is when you die, but this according to you is too late. What is it about god that demands faith without conclusive evidence as the only passport to salvation, when all the doubts and questions can all be easily answered in one quick trip to the afterlife? Why play this "faith game" with people, what is the point?

If the point is to "test", where does that lead? People are a mixed bunch and levels of believability among them is varied.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

This is the nature of people. they dont and cannot all believe the same thing at the same time all the time. The nature that creates this chaos in humanity was, according to you, from god, so why penalise us for it?

The picture of god you paint is not loving. Either this is the case, or it is not being presented correctly.

Originally posted by RogerB
No, it is the person who REJECTS God. You can't disbelieve in God and yet turn around and interpret His word to fit your distorted world.


Yes, they reject the notion or the idea wether they simply dont believe, have never believed, or dont even know anything about god. Fine. But my point was, if you are correct that there is a judgment day after we die, any rejection while standing at the pearly gates would be futile and impossible because the truth would be revealed undeniably. Stripped ot mortal, carnal behaviour and in a soul only state, the absolute truth would be presented. The unbelievers would believe. But, you are saying that god, now with these new believers, would cast them away because, in their imperfect, chaotic human life they didnt believe the unbelievable. Sorry, but it kinda sucks lemons big time.

[prodigalson]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Prodigalson:

Man believes that continued separation from God - by whatever means - is the way to insure the continued existence of ego. Any attempt to put man back in God's graces is rejected by ego because ego fears that union with God = oblivion. Man has imagined this whole separation scenario thus the Bible - written by men has reflected that belief in many of the "uninspired" passages. There are glimpses of the truth in the Bible. Many of them were quotes of Jesus.

What? Man's ego will say man deserves Hell and God is Almighty? Do you see the error in that? Man's ego is what keeps him from believing he needs a Savior. A man's ego is such that he thinks he is OK and doesn't need saving. A man's ego will not let him call himself a low-life scumbag. That is what an ego does, it brings man up and God down.

If we walked up to 1,000 people on the street and asked them "where would they go if they died today?", how many would say Hell? Maybe 1 or 2? How many would say Heaven because they are a good person? 998 or maybe 1,000.

[prodigalson]

Flake, why do you insist on saying God created an imperfect being? Because all humans are now sinners? God made us perfect(well Adam and Eve) but they fell.

Wrong, you can have 100% certianty before you die, just b/c you don't have it doesn't mean others don't. Did Adam have 100% certainty? Did Moses, David, Paul, and The Apostles? I know you don't believe but for arguments sake, would these people be 100% sure. Yes they would.

God can't just say "Don't worry about it, I'll let you in My kingdom." b/c he can't have sin in His presence, that is why Jesus Christ came, if we could get in without being cleansed by Jesus' blood than there would be no need for the Crucifixion.

[Flake]

Originally posted by prodigalson
God can't just say "Don't worry about it, I'll let you in My kingdom." b/c he can't have sin in His presence

Then he will be a very lonely god.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by Flake
Then he will be a very lonely god.
If not for the blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb who was slain as a propitiation for our sins, the only gateway into eternal communion with our Father! :D

[claire]

Originally posted by prodigalson
Flake, why do you insist on saying God created an imperfect being? Because all humans are now sinners? God made us perfect(well Adam and Eve) but they fell.

Wrong, you can have 100% certianty before you die, just b/c you don't have it doesn't mean others don't. Did Adam have 100% certainty? Did Moses, David, Paul, and The Apostles? I know you don't believe but for arguments sake, would these people be 100% sure. Yes they would.

God can't just say "Don't worry about it, I'll let you in My kingdom." b/c he can't have sin in His presence, that is why Jesus Christ came, if we could get in without being cleansed by Jesus' blood than there would be no need for the Crucifixion.

God created man from the beginning with the free will to choose....which he does...and for which he has or will pay when his choices are not "godly"....

God created EXACTLY what we are...which is imperfect, mortal beings....then he gave us his message by which we could be forgiven for the frailties of our mortal selves....in order to be one with him...

If God is the "author" of everything....he is also the "author" of sin, not because he chose it for us...because he allowed US to choose it....and gave us the path back from it....

Claire

[RogerB]

Originally posted by Flake
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RogerB
No forgiveness? Every one of us deserves to go to hell and yet God offers us salvation through Jesus.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This doesnt make sense and it is not forgivness, unless you are stating that gods creation is not perfect and not in his image, in fact riddled with sin straight from the factory, broke before you get it. Bit odd.

I think you are saying that the default state of mankind is one that is hellbound. Only god could have decreed this. No matter WHAT, god doesnt have to have it this way. God is saying that this creation he loves is going to hell as a default situation. Where is the love in that?



Not odd at all. Others have answered this truthfully.


So, we only get love in return for the same, sort of an "Indian Giver" style of love? That is not sincere and this reeks of humanistic interpretation and values. There is no spiritual feel to this cold scenario, it is distasteful. Its rather like living in a country that presumes guilt before innocence, being born in a jail until you can prove your integrity.



God knew and loved you before you were even born. God continues to loves you, born again or not. He desparately wants to have a personal relationship with you. More desparately than you can even imagine.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RogerB
But also consider that the non-believer, now with the knowledge that God is real, must live eternally separated from Him. Think of a child growing up alone but knowing that his parents live just around the corner.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why? The parents, if they love the child, would go and retrieve it.
Why cant god find it in his heart to forgive this "prodigal son" now that they KNOW the truth?



My point wasn't about forgiveness...it was to illustrate what hell might be like.



The only way to know there is a god with 100% certainty is when you die, but this according to you is too late. What is it about god that demands faith without conclusive evidence as the only passport to salvation, when all the doubts and questions can all be easily answered in one quick trip to the afterlife? Why play this "faith game" with people, what is the point?

If the point is to "test", where does that lead? People are a mixed bunch and levels of believability among them is varied.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

This is the nature of people. they dont and cannot all believe the same thing at the same time all the time. The nature that creates this chaos in humanity was, according to you, from god, so why penalise us for it?

The picture of god you paint is not loving. Either this is the case, or it is not being presented correctly.



You can't see the picture because you lack faith. Find a Christian in your hometown that you can talk to. Suspend your disbelief momentarily and take a leap of faith. Try it!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RogerB
No, it is the person who REJECTS God. You can't disbelieve in God and yet turn around and interpret His word to fit your distorted world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, they reject the notion or the idea wether they simply dont believe, have never believed, or dont even know anything about god. Fine. But my point was, if you are correct that there is a judgment day after we die, any rejection while standing at the pearly gates would be futile and impossible because the truth would be revealed undeniably. Stripped ot mortal, carnal behaviour and in a soul only state, the absolute truth would be presented. The unbelievers would believe. But, you are saying that god, now with these new believers, would cast them away because, in their imperfect, chaotic human life they didnt believe the unbelievable. Sorry, but it kinda sucks lemons big time.

God makes the rules - it's his universe.

[wickwoman]

Dear RogerB:

Originally posted by RogerB
But it's NOT a threat. It's hope for the hopeless. It's an offer of everlasting life with God in Heaven for the undeserving.


It's hope of salvation from the VERY CONDITION THAT YOUR GOD SUPPOSEDLY CREATED. If your God had not supposedly created Hell in the first place, there would be no need for salvation from it. It's sort of like if I set your house on fire but then offered you a hose if you'd comply with certain stipulations and requirements.


Originally posted by RogerB
No, it is the person who REJECTS God. You can't disbelieve in God and yet turn around and interpret His word to fit your distorted world.


Do you honestly believe there are people running around who know the Bible is true and that God is real and they just decide to reject it all because they are stubborn? That's ridiculous. Nobody would reject God if they really knew him/her. That's why God won't punish them for not knowing.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by prodigalson
Flake, why do you insist on saying God created an imperfect being? Because all humans are now sinners? God made us perfect(well Adam and Eve) but they fell

Adam and Eve, according to you had the potential to go wrong so they weren't perfect. It's sort of like if I baked a cake and it fell 10 minutes after I took it out of the oven. Was it a perfect cake or flawed?

[wickwoman]

Dear Claire:

Thank you and welcome to the discussion. I don't believe we've met. It's nice to have a new perspective.

It's amazing to have Claire, Flake, attention and me all here together at once. You know, that almost never happens. IT'S WONDERFUL!

[RogerB]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Do you honestly believe there are people running around who know the Bible is true and that God is real and they just decide to reject it all because they are stubborn? That's ridiculous. Nobody would reject God if they really knew him/her. That's why God won't punish them for not knowing.

They're called atheists.

[claire]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Adam and Eve, according to you had the potential to go wrong so they weren't perfect. It's sort of like if I baked a cake and it fell 10 minutes after I took it out of the oven. Was it a perfect cake or flawed?

They had free will....there is where your answer lies, ww.....

God created them with the capability to choose....did he wish for us to choose "Him" over other things..yes...

But when they chose "evil" over "him".....God, being the just and merciful God that he is....said to the instigator of their temptation...."ok....I am a just and merciful God....to ALL my creations.....(which included Lucifer, the temptor) continued to allow man (and Lucifer) a level playing field.....man can choose what path he wishes to follow....

Did God "know" all this would shake out exactly as it did and has....of course....while he doesn't interfere with our choices....he is omniscient and knew we would have them.....and make them.....and he gave us a "way" to overcome them.....

Claire

edit: It's nice to meet you too, ww :D

[RogerB]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Adam and Eve, according to you had the potential to go wrong so they weren't perfect. It's sort of like if I baked a cake and it fell 10 minutes after I took it out of the oven. Was it a perfect cake or flawed?

I can dress you up in a clean, white gown and sit you next to a mud puddle. You have the choice to stay out of the mud or jump into it. Let's say you decide to jump into it. The gown is now muddy. Was it clean to begin with?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by RogerB
I can dress you up in a clean, white gown and sit you next to a mud puddle. You have the choice to stay out of the mud or jump into it. Let's say you decide to jump into it. The gown is now muddy. Was it clean to begin with?

Dear RogerB:

A gown has no will to decide to jump into the mud or not. The person wearing the gown made a bad decision to do it, so are you saying the person wearing it was perfect until she jumped into the puddle? If you are, then I would say she wouldn't have made a bad decision if she was perfect in the first place, white gown or not.

[PureX]

I never jump in mud puddles wearing white gowns, I must be PERFECT!

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by PureX
I never jump in mud puddles wearing white gowns, I must be PERFECT!

I agree. You are.

Where have you been? I was talking about you again.

[prodigalson]

Do you honestly believe there are people running around who know the Bible is true and that God is real and they just decide to reject it all because they are stubborn?

You better believe it, I did, and others do too. I wanted to keep doing drugs and party.

That's ridiculous. Nobody would reject God if they really knew him/her. That's why God won't punish them for not knowing.

If they truly knew Him, they wouldn't reject Him, but since most people have their perverted view of God and don't want to know the truth than it is their fault for being stubborn and wilfully ignorant. They will refuse to believe the truth b/c it doesn't go with their human knowledge and hence they raise themselves above God, whether they want to admit that or not that is what happens. They say God is wrong and I am right b/c this is how it should be, and that is a no no.

Also, if I refuse to pay attention in class I will fail the test, who's fault is it, mine for not trying to get the answer or the teacher for failing me? Me of course since I was indifferent to the task at hand. "I passed you anyway Jeremy, I can't fail you for not knowing."

Just the fact that we(people) do not do everything in our power to seek and find the will of God proves what kind of arrogant, selfish, ungratefull, wretches we truly are and deserve the punishment we get. God is real but most don't care, they think they are good enough and deserve Heaven. People will never say they deserve Heaven but their actions speak quite differently.

Claire, God did make us perfect, Free Will doesn't make us imperfect. We just screwed it up.

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Adam and Eve, according to you had the potential to go wrong so they weren't perfect.

They wouldn't have been perfect without the potential to go wrong (i.e. disobey God).

It's sort of like if I baked a cake and it fell 10 minutes after I took it out of the oven.

No, it's more like you baked a perfect cake (that oddly enough had free will, but for the sake of argument we'll grant this), and somebody came along ten minutes later and convinced it to take a nosedive into the floor.

[claire]

Originally posted by prodigalson
Claire, God did make us perfect, Free Will doesn't make us imperfect. We just screwed it up.

Well, I agree AND disagree....PS....he made us what we are...man...with the ability to choose good over evil, right over wrong, knowledge over ignorance, and beauty over ugliness....

Now in THAT sense...yes, we are perfect....for his PLAN.....

Everything that "matters" in the world has a standard against which it can be weighed or judged....how perfect are his blueprints....that he expects us to discern his message (or not) and make the right choices (or not).....it is the complete and total reason for our being.....in that respect his PLAN is perfect....we are not....but even in that, we perfectly fit into the overall scheme of things....

Blessings,

claire

[RogerB]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear RogerB:

A gown has no will to decide to jump into the mud or not. The person wearing the gown made a bad decision to do it, so are you saying the person wearing it was perfect until she jumped into the puddle? If you are, then I would say she wouldn't have made a bad decision if she was perfect in the first place, white gown or not.

SO does your cake have free will? :chuckle:

[wickwoman]

Dear RogerB:

My cake didn't have to do anything. It just was. Your gown had to decide to jump into a puddle. See the difference? When you give an example you should try to make the scenario a little more realistic. If you'd like to discuss animated beings then fine, just don't give the ability to do something to a gown. I didn't give the cake an ability it doesn't possess. :D

[prodigalson]

Claire, we really can't even use examples of ying yang actions b/c when Adam and Eve were created the only thing that was wrong to do was eat from the tree that God told them not to. Every word they would of spoke would be sinless, every tone they spoke the words in would also be. Every action they could of done would of been sinless just as long as they didn't eat from that tree. Every choice would of been sinless, every action would of been sinless. Once they did eat from the tree God commanded against, sin came into the world and threw everything for a loop. Now there was sinfull rage, lust, pride, disease etc. Now I don't know if every choice Adam and Eve would of made would of been right in the sense that they could of made a wrong turn and got lost on the way back home or something like that. Maybe every action would of been correct before the fall, maybe not.

After God had finished creation there was nothing wrong with it. Everyone should be able to agree with that.

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Rfburnhertz:

The only game being played is in your head. You throw out insults and have no real reason for the criticism. How exactly would you like for me to prove to you that you are wrong? You and I both know that it won't happen. No matter what I offer your own human ego will continue to defend that vast terrain in your head of separateness.

Yes, I've gone out of my way to insult you.
And you had begun this thread with hugs and kisses.

Your thread began with purposeful insults.

Yes. My human ego. I should put this human ego aside and embrace your wonderful wisdom. And because I do not, it is my ego that is the problem.

It has nothing to do with your having made a claim (more than one claim actually) of supposed fact and backed your supposed facts up with mere opinion.

I have asked you three or four times now to demonstrate that we as humans CANNOT know if the bible is or is not true.

You continue to offer opinion only.


The thread is founded on the following facts:

1. There are many branches of Christianity.
2. You can choose which one you want.
3. Some Christian churches focus on love, others on Hell and sin
4. If you focus on love, you will choose a church that does
5. If you focus on Hell, you will chose a church that does
6. If you are a bigot, you will go to church with bigots


Your first post was based upon these six points?
Shouldn't 4,5 and 6 all be one point.


The title "Stop Making Excuses" is to say this - you made the choice, now own up to it.

I have owned up to being a Christian. Cannot speak for other Christians.

Please, keep the phrase 'own up to it' in mind when you stand before God. Because yes, just as I have made the choice you also have made a choice.


Those of us who know the true nature of a loving God are offended to hear you slander him/her so.

This of course states as fact that you know the true nature of a loving God.

If you ever answer my first question. I will of course answer the question you asked of me. And then my next question of you will be to demonstrate that you do indeed know the true nature of a loving God.

[rfburnhertz]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear RogerB:



It's hope of salvation from the VERY CONDITION THAT YOUR GOD SUPPOSEDLY CREATED. If your God had not supposedly created Hell in the first place, there would be no need for salvation from it. It's sort of like if I set your house on fire but then offered you a hose if you'd comply with certain stipulations and requirements.


No condition has been given. Only a choice.

To make it disgusting in whole to you I ask,
do you want to spend eternity with the God I worship? I doubt it.

So you have a choice. You can spend eternity apart from this God.

Do you honestly believe there are people running around who know the Bible is true and that God is real and they just decide to reject it all because they are stubborn? That's ridiculous. Nobody would reject God if they really knew him/her. That's why God won't punish them for not knowing.

Actually, yes there is at least one person in the world like this that I know of. I have meet him.

I meet a bishop of the LDS church who say's that he KNOWS the LDS religion is false. He continues to reject what he say's he knows is true because he fears his family will reject him.

And they likely would.

As far as your statement:
That's why God won't punish them for not knowing.

No, that is why if YOU were god YOU would not "punish" them.

If you believe this, then YOU would be a tyranical god as YOU would force people to spend eternity with you even if they would not want to spend eternity with you.

That is, assuming you did everything else just as God has done. Which of course you would not, because you are much smarter than God is.

[Is it possible?]

I want everyone to know the above atheist in the post above mine...I won't even do him the courtesy of saying his name is officially on my ignore list. YYYEEEAAHHH!!!!:D

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by rfburnhertz

Quoting me:

>> Now, you can say the Bible describes God very well, however, you will first have to make an assumption that the Bible is true. This assumption will be based on your desire for it to be true or not; the evidence you have or haven’t seen to its truthfulness; your own personal “gullability” or lack thereof (in other words, are you a person who requires strict proof, a little bit of proof, or none at all in order to accept something); your personal experiences which would prepare you to accept that the Bible is true; and, I believe the most important reason of all, your faith in your own inner feelings and beliefs i.e., your ability to trust your own judgment. There are other factors which also affect a person’s decision to accept the Bible or not but they are too many to cover completely here. <<

You are stating the above as known fact.
Is it fact or is it your assumption?

Now this is the famous question posed by RFburnhertz. My original question to him was, "which part of the paragraph would you like explained?" or something to that effect. The REASON I said that is that the above paragraph contains SEVERAL sentences and, when asked to tell whether the "above" was fact or opinion, my first thought was, "Which part of it?"

Sentence #1:

"Now, you can say the Bible describes God very well, however, you will first have to make an assumption that the Bible is true. "


Rfburnhertz would have to answer that for sure but I think he's proven that he believes it does. There was some discussion about why a person can't "know" the Bible is true. My reply was that in order to really "know" you'd have to dig up some eyewitnesses and compare their testimonies to the recordation of events in the Bible in order to "know."

Maybe my definition of "know" differs with Rfburnhertz definition of "know." You see, I work in the legal field and, in the legal field, you cannot know something to be true unless you saw it yourself or have the opportunity to speak with someone who did. Since there is nobody alive now who did witness everything in the Bible, I will continue to stand on another FACT: you can't "know." So that would make this entire sentence a fact.


Sentence #2.

Part 1:
This assumption will be based on your desire for it to be true or not;

Part 2
the evidence you have or haven’t seen to its truthfulness;

Part 3
your own personal “gullability” or lack thereof (in other words, are you a person who requires strict proof, a little bit of proof, or none at all in order to accept something);

Part 4
your personal experiences which would prepare you to accept that the Bible is true;

Part 5
and, I believe the most important reason of all, your faith in your own inner feelings and beliefs i.e., your ability to trust your own judgment.

Parts 1 - 5 would be my own interpretation of the psychological reasons a person does or doesn't decide for something. So, if Rfburnhertz would like to differ with any Part of the above quote, he can feel free to do so. I would ,however, say that most of the above parts 1-5 are common sense. Though common sense is sometimes subjective, I believe most intelligent people can come to a consensus on what is sensible and what is not. I would also add that I made the following "qualifying" remark. To clarify, if Rfburnhertz is confused by what I mean when I say "qualifying," that means that I've put a condition of sorts on my statement. The qualifying condition was this: "There are other factors which also affect a person’s decision to accept the Bible or not but they are too many to cover completely here."

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
Could there be personal experiances which would prepare you to reject the bible? Your faith in things ouside of God? Your faith in your own inner feeling. Your faith in your judgement?

Could there be other factors as well which lead you to reject the bible?"


This is Rfburnhertz thinking he's caught me in some sort of a trap. However, I openly admitted the above could most certainly have affected my decisions about my faith. Let me remind Rfburnhertz that I've not tried to implicate that it's bad to let such factors influence you, just that they do. You see, I'm not a bigot so I do not have to defend a hateful and faultly, loveless belief system by hiding behind excuses. I am more than willing to admit that these things have brought me to where I am today.


After this Rfburnhertz got very excited and thought since I had not answered his somewhat criptic question, I was just avoiding discussion of what I'd posted. I honestly wanted him to point out which part of the long paragraph he had a question about. Since then, there's been a lot of smoke screening, avoidance, and silly comments and discussions about my forehead. Anyway, it's typical behavior of a person who found something I said hit home. He obviously was insulted. Why? Is Rfburnhertz a bigot, a homophobe, a person who thinks that only a few of his special friends are loved by God? We don't really know for sure because he's managed to avoid any real and meaningful discussion on the subject.

There you go, Rfburnhertz. The ball is in your court!

[rfburnhertz]

A nice attempt wickwoman.

But I am still looking for evidence that we CANNOT KNOW that the bible is true.

This has been the question I asked of you.
You answer basicly has been do I know any eye witnesses.

That of course is not evidence.

I have not been as you claimed, attempting to trap you.

I just want an honest answer to the question I asked. Again, I do not want your personal opinion, opinion is not evidence.

You claim I must assume the bible to be true. I cannot know it to be true.

My claim is that you assume the bible is untrue.
And that you CAN know the bible is true.

I am indeed ready to present you with evidence that the bible is true.

I do not know that such evidence would convince you of anything. And it is not my job to convince you of anything.

But I am not playing the stupid game that many atheists seem to love to play. Where I must provide evidences and they present none.

As for the possiblity of my being a bigot.
I am intolerant and glad I am. But no,
I am not a bigot.

[prodigalson]

Look, just b/c you don't know the Bible is true wickwoman, doesn't mean many of us don't know it is true either b/c we do. God supernaturaly opened my eyes(and others) and basically said "This is true!", that is my eyewitness, that was all I needed. It might not be enough for you, it might not be what you want, but it doesn't change the fact that I know.

Did Adam know God was real and who He was?
Did Noah?
Did Abraham?
Did David?
Did the Apostles?

Really why would anyone elses Faith be much different than the above? It is not as visual as Adams' or the Apostles' Faith was, but Noah was pretty dang sure if he is building an Ark on dry land when there was never even rain yet.

[Flake]

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
But I am still looking for evidence that we CANNOT KNOW that the bible is true.


Inconsistencies. (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.shtml)

I could tell you that the car in front of us is blue. You may deny that and state it is green and ask me to prove it. I could gather a group of people together to testify the color of the car, contact the manufacturer to ask which paint they used, consult a color expert, perform scientific tests etc, and still you would deny it is blue. Why? Perhaps you are color blind.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
But I am still looking for evidence that we CANNOT KNOW that the bible is true.

This has been the question I asked of you.
You answer basicly has been do I know any eye witnesses.

I can tell you that the walls in my office are peach. Do you KNOW that they are? I do. How about you? I suppose you could claim that you had some supernatural experience where you saw the walls of my office in a dream and they were, indeed peach, and yes you KNOW that they are. But, do you really expect any intelligent person to buy that? I don't. Sorry.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
I just want an honest answer to the question I asked. Again, I do not want your personal opinion, opinion is not evidence.

What I gave you is not an opinion. And, it truly was my honest answer to your question. Are you saying that it is not a fact that you haven't dug up any of the eye witnesses to the events in the Bible and asked them whether or not the Bible is true? If you answer you have, then I would say we have nothing further to discuss because I'm crazier than you are if I think I could convince you of anything.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
My claim is that you assume the bible is untrue.
And that you CAN know the bible is true.

I would never claim that I KNOW without a doubt that the Bible is untrue. That would be unreasonable since I have no eyewitness to the fact that it ISN'T true. You see, I can make logical guesses about things for which I have no real objective proof, I can consider evidence, I can make logical assumptions, however, I cannot tell you without a shadow of a doubt that I KNOW the Bible isn't true. I've never tried to say that. If you got that impression, please excuse me for misleading you.

It would have been easier for me if I'd discovered some solid evidence years ago for the Bible's truthfullness. I know my parents would have accepted me more readily. I would fit in with my ultraconservative co-workers. However, no such proof was provided.

To the contrary, real life provided all the proof I needed to see that many of the concepts in the Bible are either fradulent or misunderstood. But, if ever the evidence is presented to the contrary, I would certainly be happy to consider it. Do you know just how frightening it is to wake up one day and realize that everything you've believed in since you were capable of reasoning is false? It's like jumping off a cliff with no parachute, just hoping there's a nice, soft pile of pillows waiting for you at the bottom.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
I am indeed ready to present you with evidence that the bible is true.

I do not know that such evidence would convince you of anything. And it is not my job to convince you of anything.


I've read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." I've spoken in tongues. I've assisted in the casting out of demons. I've witnessed to the sick and to homeless people on the street.

If you've got something better than that, then feel free to share it. Otherwise, you misunderstand me and where I'm coming from. You make assumptions that this is my first time on this merry-go-round. It's not. I've been there and done that. If you've got anything more to add to my own personal experiences, feel free to share it. Just so you know you're not dealing with someone who is "new" to these concepts.

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
But I am not playing the stupid game that many atheists seem to love to play. Where I must provide evidences and they present none.

Funny, the only thing I've tried to do is to get you to back up your off hand comments similar to saying something like "that's a bunch of crap" with some real objective criticism. If I presented evidence to a judge and the opposing counsel stood up and said "you honor, that's a bunch of crap" do you think the judge would find his argument valid? My request to you has been "exactly how is it crap?" Is that unreasonable?

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
As for the possiblity of my being a bigot.
I am intolerant and glad I am. But no,
I am not a bigot.

How exactly are you intolerant? Funny you use that exact word. I have a bumper sticker on my car that says "teach tolerance." I'm so proud that I am tolerant. And you are proud that you are intolerant. Amazing how different people really are. But, I guess that's what tolerance is about.

[prodigalson]

Originally posted by wickwoman
I can tell you that the walls in my office are peach. Do you KNOW that they are? I do. How about you? I suppose you could claim that you had some supernatural experience where you saw the walls of my office in a dream and they were, indeed peach, and yes you KNOW that they are. But, do you really expect any intelligent person to buy that? I don't. Sorry.

It doesn't metter if you believe us or not when we say we know the bible is true, we are just telling you what the deal is; it's on you to decide if you want to know or if you would rather rely on your own wisdom.

What I gave you is not an opinion. And, it truly was my honest answer to your question. Are you saying that it is not a fact that you haven't dug up any of the eye witnesses to the events in the Bible and asked them whether or not the Bible is true? If you answer you have, then I would say we have nothing further to discuss because I'm crazier than you are if I think I could convince you of anything.

I/we don't need to dig up eyewitness b/c God Himself has reveiled it to us. This is what you don't get, b/c if you did, you wouldn't say "You can't be sure if the Bible is true."

It would have been easier for me if I'd discovered some solid evidence years ago for the Bible's truthfullness. I know my parents would have accepted me more readily. I would fit in with my ultraconservative co-workers. However, no such proof was provided.

Honestly, it wouldn't of mattered, you would still not want to believe it b/c it goes against some of your ideologies that you wouldn't let go of. Back when Jesus was performing miracles, people still didn't believe, and they just explained His wonders away.

To the contrary, real life provided all the proof I needed to see that many of the concepts in the Bible are either fradulent or misunderstood. But, if ever the evidence is presented to the contrary, I would certainly be happy to consider it. Do you know just how frightening it is to wake up one day and realize that everything you've believed in since you were capable of reasoning is false? It's like jumping off a cliff with no parachute, just hoping there's a nice, soft pile of pillows waiting for you at the bottom.

Those false things you speak of are just things that go against your own belief system, such as homosexuality, or "good" people going to Hell. We have gone through this before so no need to do it again.

[claire]

Originally posted by prodigalson
Claire, we really can't even use examples of ying yang actions b/c when Adam and Eve were created the only thing that was wrong to do was eat from the tree that God told them not to. Every word they would of spoke would be sinless, every tone they spoke the words in would also be. Every action they could of done would of been sinless just as long as they didn't eat from that tree. Every choice would of been sinless, every action would of been sinless. Once they did eat from the tree God commanded against, sin came into the world and threw everything for a loop. Now there was sinfull rage, lust, pride, disease etc. Now I don't know if every choice Adam and Eve would of made would of been right in the sense that they could of made a wrong turn and got lost on the way back home or something like that. Maybe every action would of been correct before the fall, maybe not.

After God had finished creation there was nothing wrong with it. Everyone should be able to agree with that.

You are right...PS.....when God finished "creation" by whatever means, there was nothing "wrong with it"....but he knew how man would behave because we are also his creation....in that sense....you can say that god orchestrated man's deviation from him in favor of that which was a step away from him....so he is the author of that....In retrospect, had Adam and Eve adhered to God's commands.....we can see that man would not understand the "free will" or the consequences of his actions....so we are able to call it "perfect" because it set man on the course to have CHOICES....without choices...there is no glory....

:)

[wickwoman]

Dear Prodigalson:

Quote you:

"I/we don't need to dig up eyewitness b/c God Himself has reveiled it to us. This is what you don't get, b/c if you did, you wouldn't say "You can't be sure if the Bible is true."

Well, God has revealed to me that homosexuals are not going to hell, nor are Hindus, Buddhists, nor anyone else for that matter. As a matter of fact, God has revealed to me that there is no Hell at all, that the Bible has been severely misunderstood and applied to situations for which it was not intended.

So both of us think we KNOW. Wonder which one is right? Both - probably not. That's how I can't KNOW that I'm right and that's how you can't KNOW that you're right either. Unless, of course, you have a severe superiority complex and believe that your reasoning is superior to about 66% of the world's population. (That's the portion that isn't Christian.)

[Berean Todd]

Originally posted by wickwoman
, of course, you have a severe superiority complex and believe that your reasoning is superior to about 66% of the world's population. (That's the portion that isn't Christian.)

98% of the world could tell me that the sky is green and the ocean is made up of jello, but that would not change the truth. The truth is the truth regardless of what the masses think, and since something as important as salvation has a great deal of import to everyone, everyone has a great self interest in it, and thus a great interest in perverting or destroying the truths of something like the Bible. The great thing is, after 1900 years of attack the book still stands far above and beyond anything else ever written.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Flake
Inconsistencies. (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.shtml)

I could tell you that the car in front of us is blue. You may deny that and state it is green and ask me to prove it. I could gather a group of people together to testify the color of the car, contact the manufacturer to ask which paint they used, consult a color expert, perform scientific tests etc, and still you would deny it is blue. Why? Perhaps you are color blind.

Great observation Flake. You've pointed out a very important part of reasoning. Nobody approaches a situation without at least one of the following to influence them: personal experiences, handicaps, prejudices, opinions, strong desires, or even delusions.

When I try to conceive of what God is about. I try to remember some laws that I believe are a constant. Love is universal. Nothing of God could ever be anything less than for all and for always. God is an absolute. That means that his/her love is absolute. Absolute love is like nothing we as human beings have ever been able to conceive of.

Maybe it was you who said earlier someone had a very "human" idea of how God is. We do, we're human beings. So when I conceive of how God must be, I try to think of the highest and best that I have to offer, then I quadruple it or more. That's not even scratching the surface of how wonderful God is.



"I am the goal of life, the Lord and support of all, the inner witness, the abode of all. I am the only refuge, the one true friend; I am the beginning, the staying, and the end of creation; I am the womb and the eternal seed.

I am heat; I give and withhold the rain. I am immortality and I am death; I am what is and what is not."

-Bhagavad Gita 9:18-19

[claire]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Prodigalson:

Quote you:

"I/we don't need to dig up eyewitness b/c God Himself has reveiled it to us. This is what you don't get, b/c if you did, you wouldn't say "You can't be sure if the Bible is true."

Well, God has revealed to me that homosexuals are not going to hell, nor are Hindus, Buddhists, nor anyone else for that matter. As a matter of fact, God has revealed to me that there is no Hell at all, that the Bible has been severely misunderstood and applied to situations for which it was not intended.

So both of us think we KNOW. Wonder which one is right? Both - probably not. That's how I can't KNOW that I'm right and that's how you can't KNOW that you're right either. Unless, of course, you have a severe superiority complex and believe that your reasoning is superior to about 66% of the world's population. (That's the portion that isn't Christian.)

WW, :D

Well, God has revealed to me that our "doctrines" are not going to be the deciding factor in his grant of "eternity".....we would be pretty arrogant to presume to accede to the notion that "we" can or should "judge" what God is going to do.....

A man who lives by God's message....am I a Christian? Yes....but I know "godly" men of many faiths (and no faith)....and IM NOT GOING to second guess God...the God I know and worship (albeit as a christian) is a just and merciful God.....I am leaving that in his hands....and am going to do the very best I can to live his message.....based on my belief system.....If I get the dirt nap because of it.....then I am prepared for it....

GOD is GOD....he is the one who will decide who is one with Him and who gets the dirt nap.....

[Shaun]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Well, God has revealed to me that homosexuals are not going to hell, nor are Hindus, Buddhists, nor anyone else for that matter. As a matter of fact, God has revealed to me that there is no Hell at all, that the Bible has been severely misunderstood and applied to situations for which it was not intended.

So both of us think we KNOW. Wonder which one is right? Both - probably not. That's how I can't KNOW that I'm right and that's how you can't KNOW that you're right either. Unless, of course, you have a severe superiority complex and believe that your reasoning is superior to about 66% of the world's population. (That's the portion that isn't Christian.)
Welcome to the world of Postmodernism, where logic, reason, and thorough study take a backseat to ME!

Shaun
truth is exclusive

[prodigalson]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Prodigalson:
So both of us think we KNOW. Wonder which one is right? Both - probably not. That's how I can't KNOW that I'm right

Bingo, this comment here makes your previous paragraph a lie and God didn't reveil homosexuals, Hindus etc are not going to hell. You made that up.

and that's how you can't KNOW that you're right either.Unless, of course, you have a severe superiority complex and believe that your reasoning is superior to about 66% of the world's population. (That's the portion that isn't Christian.)

I never said my reasoning is correct b/c in a sense that would make it my opinion, I just said God revieled His truth to me. Not because I am special, not because I am smarter but because I asked Him to. I asked Him with an open mind that what ever the truth was it was the truth whether I agreed with it or not. You on the other hand want the truth to be as you see it, that is why God hasn't revieled it to you.

[prodigalson]

Originally posted by claire
WW, :D

Well, God has revealed to me that our "doctrines" are not going to be the deciding factor in his grant of "eternity".....we would be pretty arrogant to presume to accede to the notion that "we" can or should "judge" what God is going to do.....

Did He now Claire or are you just saying He did?

God has told us quite a bit of what He is going to do, it's called the Bible. Remember it is not our Doctrines or at least mine isn't, mine is the Doctrine God has decreed in His word. Christ told the 12 what was going to happen and what to preach, so in a sense Christ did give people authority on what God is going to do.

A man who lives by God's message....am I a Christian? Yes....but I know "godly" men of many faiths (and no faith)....and IM NOT GOING to second guess God...the God I know and worship (albeit as a christian) is a just and merciful God.....I am leaving that in his hands....and am going to do the very best I can to live his message.....based on my belief system.....If I get the dirt nap because of it.....then I am prepared for it....

GOD is GOD....he is the one who will decide who is one with Him and who gets the dirt nap.....

There are plenty of people in this world that live a good life that are completly indifferent to the price Jesus Christ paid. If all religions are going to God there is almost no reason for the Apostles and Paul to of been risking life and limp tp preach the Gospel. If most people go to Heaven than why was there only Noah and his family being saved(there wasn't 1 more person that was decent?).

Also, God quite plainly has showed us what He thinks of other belief systems and other religions in His word. Whether you know that His word is true is on you.

[claire]

PS....others....

I CAN"T know I am right...it would take empirical evidence to show me that...which we don't have.....

I can profess, based on belief, that I know what I know......that God is Loving, Merciful and Just...and yet, those professions carry no weight....

That he has sent his message and that those who live by it have a "chance" at eternity....

And that he wants certain things from us....and that we either follow them or not.....

That we are charged with certain "responsibilities" before we can "get there".....

It is all (as always) a matter of faith.....My faith is well placed in God and his son, Jesus Christ.....and if I am wrong, as I said before.....I'll take the dirtnap with no griping (that isn't the word I originally used...but it gets ****....LOLOL

Blessings,

claire