Was Paul a false apostle? Scripture reveals he preached "another" gospel:

[MichaelEden]

"I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them to be false." Revelation 2:2 (NIV)

"Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" Matthew 16:12 (KJV)


THE 'LEAVEN' OF THE APOSTLE PAUL:


Was the apostle Paul a false prophet? Did Paul preach 'another' gospel than that of Jesus Christ? Why wasn't Paul chosen as one of the original twelve, or chosen to replace the apostle that betrayed Christ? Why did Paul's 'conversion' result in blindness, when Christ performed miracles of restoring sight to many in the gospels? Why does Paul brazenly admit to things like:

(stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8

(boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

(speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17

(trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16


We've been warned before about "devils in disguise" as "angels of light"... Here is a scriptural look into the mind of a deceiver - via the pages of Corinthians I and II. The devil's in the details:


(Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/16



(Paul decides to pass judgment on someone)

"And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just if I were present." I Cor 5:3



(Paul decides to consult with Satan, not Jesus, concerning the man he passed judgment on)

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." I Cor 5:5


(Paul thinks he is better than anyone else)

"I wish that all men were as I am." I Cor 7:7



(Paul admits to injecting his own opinions into scripture)

"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):" I Cor 7:12



(Paul, who is single, gives faulty advice on marriage)

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am" I Cor 7:8

"Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." I Cor 7:27



(Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)

"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29



(Paul advocates staying the same and not progressing forward)

"Each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him." I Cor 7:20



(What does Paul have against marriage?)

"An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:" I Cor 7:34

"But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please her husband." I Cor 7:34



(strange talk)

"In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is - and I think that I too have the spirit of God." I Cor 7:40



(Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)

"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

"If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11



(Paul loves the sin of pride)

"I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast." I Cor 9:15



(Paul decrees that a hairstyle can keep you from being a good Christian)

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a discrace to him," I Cor 11:14



(Paul even passes judgment on growling stomachs)

"If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." I Cor 11:34



(Paul curses an entire people who may not have heard Jesus' gospel)

"If anyone does not love the lord - a curse be on him."



PAUL DISTORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD:



Here is but one time that Paul mis-quoted scripture. In II Cor 6:2 Paul asserts that God said something that God didn't:

For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of my salvation I helped you." II Cor 6:2

What Isaiah 49:8 REALLY says is:

This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances," Isaiah 49:8

Why did Paul lie, distort scripture? And how would any believer defend this as something "O.K."?



So that no one will accuse me of taking anything out of context - I will include surrounding passages in addition to referencing the chapter number and passage numbers for this next example:


"Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

---surrounding passages---

"In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool." II Cor 11:17

"You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!" II Cor 11:19


Here is Paul not only boasting as "the world does" - but expressing a "self-confident" attitude in this boasting! And then, shockingly, Paul confesses that what he says is not coming from the Lord. (who then is it coming from?) Then Paul admits that he is talking "as a fool"

A boasting, self-confident, self-proclaimed foolish talker who admits that he is not speaking godly wisdom?




II CORINHTIANS BOASTING, DECEPTION, AND FOOLISHNESS:


(Paul causes the Corinthians pain and hurt on several instances)

"So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you." II Cor 2:1

"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while." II Cor 7:8



(Paul shows envy of other apostles, false humility, a need for congratulation, and more foolish talk)

"I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the 'super-apostles', even though I am nothing." II Cor 12:11



(Paul admits that Satan is in him - tormenting him)

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7



(Paul resorts to sneaky, under-handed tactics - WWJD?)

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal whith us in the things they boast about." II Cor 11:12



(Nothing seems to stop Paul from his boasting)

"I must go on boasting." II Cor 12:1



(Paul's threat to punish - what happened to the love of Christ?)

"On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others," II Cor 13:2 B


Is this who founded the Christian religion? A man who admits that Satan is in him tormenting him? Again - what about this self-confession of demon possession:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7


Are Christians really that quick to accept the teachings of a man who openly admits that a messenger of Satan (demon) is tormenting him...?

Especially when Jesus' works/miracles included healing the demon-possesed and casting out demons?

Do you not think that Jesus would have wanted to 'cleanse' or heal the "supposed" apostle to the gentiles? Couple this with the fact that Paul's initial "supposed" contact with Jesus resulted in blindness?

What if your preacher got up in your pulpit this Sunday, and then proceeded to tell you that a messenger from Satan resided in him... then why would you allow him to continue to preach the Word?

Looking forward to some wonderful insight, and discussion as we discern the Truth together.

Michael111

[JosephofMessiah]

Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.


Vs.


Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Note the bold print.

This shows an exceedingly different approach to who the Son of Man / Messiah is under the doctrine of Christ Yeshua, and the letters of the gospels.

[Turbo]

Peter called Paul's epistles inspired Sciptures when he warned about people who distort Paul's message:and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 15-16 (NKJV)

[prodigalson]

No, Paul was not a false Apostle. In fact, he might be the greatest one.

[shilohproject]

Paul does certainly stir the pot, though. Often in a way which creates real tension for other sections of scripture. I belive the are resolvable, though, by a reasonable, non-literalistic reading.:cool:

[Shaun]

This post made me chuckle.

Shaun
oh, the eisegeses people weave

[Kronus]

I dare say if we had a lifetime collection of some of the words and ideas that came out of your mouth, Michael Eden we could paste them together in a similar pattern and make you out to be either:

a. a madman full of selfishness and loathing for others

b. a genius on the brink of bringing forth a long sought solution to life's major problems

c. a average Joe with not much to say of any consequence whatosever

d. a nuclear physicist good at science but poor in social skills

e. a unemployed janitor with a mind like a steel trap but breath like bear scat

Take your pick.

What's your favorite interpretation?

[Crow]

Originally posted by Shaun
This post made me chuckle.

Shaun
oh, the eisegeses people weave

Mikey wrote one of the best unintentionally funny posts I have ever read. ROTFLMBO! I'm going to save it and pass it around. :chuckle:

[BillyBob]

I wonder which church is preaching this stuff?

[prodigalson]

Originally posted by Crow
Mikey wrote one of the best unintentionally funny posts I have ever read. ROTFLMBO! I'm going to save it and pass it around. :chuckle:

I think I should go back and actually read the post now.

[MichaelEden]

Revelation Chapter 2 starts out:

"UNTO the angel of the church of Ephesus write;" Rev 2:1

and then verse 2 states:

"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil; and thou has tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

WHAT'S THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE CHURCH OF EPHESUS AND REVELATION 2:1?

You guessed it... THE APOSTLE PAUL. He was the self-proclaimed apostle that founded the church of Ephesus. He was a liar, and was not an apostle of Jesus. He was counterfeit.

And there are 14 epistles full of evidence of misquoting scripture, boasting, not speaking on behalf of the Lord, strange doctrines, opinion presented as truth, envy, false humility, and some particularly venemous rants - such as the following:

(Paul advocates castration for those who disagree with his doctrine on circumcision)

"Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Gal 5:11/12

Paul's tasteless rant aimed at those of the circumcision - he wants some to just go ahead and cut it all off...? Why do people defending the devil when he exposes HIMSELF as that via the scripture? And for those who feel that I am taking something 'out of context'...

Whether these passages were the only thing on a page - or whether they appear in the bulk of a page - they are still 'evil leaven'. And if it was just one verse that was questionable - that would be one thing... But it's verse after verse after verse.

It's amazing how intensely people defend Paul even knowing that Paul was not the Messiah, he did not travel with Jesus and the other apostles, and Paul can do NOTHING for them on Judgment Day. But still they cling to Paul as some sort of 'Hero' or 'exalted apostle' even referring to him the 'greatest apostle' -

The deception is high in these end-times

Michael111

[Is it possible?]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
"I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them to be false." Revelation 2:2 (NIV)

"Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" Matthew 16:12 (KJV)


THE 'LEAVEN' OF THE APOSTLE PAUL:


Was the apostle Paul a false prophet? Did Paul preach 'another' gospel than that of Jesus Christ? Why wasn't Paul chosen as one of the original twelve, or chosen to replace the apostle that betrayed Christ? Why did Paul's 'conversion' result in blindness, when Christ performed miracles of restoring sight to many in the gospels? Why does Paul brazenly admit to things like:

(stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8

(boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

(speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17

(trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16


We've been warned before about "devils in disguise" as "angels of light"... Here is a scriptural look into the mind of a deceiver - via the pages of Corinthians I and II. The devil's in the details:


(Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/16



(Paul decides to pass judgment on someone)

"And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just if I were present." I Cor 5:3



(Paul decides to consult with Satan, not Jesus, concerning the man he passed judgment on)

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." I Cor 5:5


(Paul thinks he is better than anyone else)

"I wish that all men were as I am." I Cor 7:7



(Paul admits to injecting his own opinions into scripture)

"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):" I Cor 7:12



(Paul, who is single, gives faulty advice on marriage)

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am" I Cor 7:8

"Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." I Cor 7:27



(Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)

"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29



(Paul advocates staying the same and not progressing forward)

"Each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him." I Cor 7:20



(What does Paul have against marriage?)

"An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:" I Cor 7:34

"But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please her husband." I Cor 7:34



(strange talk)

"In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is - and I think that I too have the spirit of God." I Cor 7:40



(Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)

"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

"If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11



(Paul loves the sin of pride)

"I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast." I Cor 9:15



(Paul decrees that a hairstyle can keep you from being a good Christian)

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a discrace to him," I Cor 11:14



(Paul even passes judgment on growling stomachs)

"If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." I Cor 11:34



(Paul curses an entire people who may not have heard Jesus' gospel)

"If anyone does not love the lord - a curse be on him."



PAUL DISTORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD:



Here is but one time that Paul mis-quoted scripture. In II Cor 6:2 Paul asserts that God said something that God didn't:

For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of my salvation I helped you." II Cor 6:2

What Isaiah 49:8 REALLY says is:

This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances," Isaiah 49:8

Why did Paul lie, distort scripture? And how would any believer defend this as something "O.K."?



So that no one will accuse me of taking anything out of context - I will include surrounding passages in addition to referencing the chapter number and passage numbers for this next example:


"Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

---surrounding passages---

"In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool." II Cor 11:17

"You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!" II Cor 11:19


Here is Paul not only boasting as "the world does" - but expressing a "self-confident" attitude in this boasting! And then, shockingly, Paul confesses that what he says is not coming from the Lord. (who then is it coming from?) Then Paul admits that he is talking "as a fool"

A boasting, self-confident, self-proclaimed foolish talker who admits that he is not speaking godly wisdom?




II CORINHTIANS BOASTING, DECEPTION, AND FOOLISHNESS:


(Paul causes the Corinthians pain and hurt on several instances)

"So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you." II Cor 2:1

"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while." II Cor 7:8



(Paul shows envy of other apostles, false humility, a need for congratulation, and more foolish talk)

"I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the 'super-apostles', even though I am nothing." II Cor 12:11



(Paul admits that Satan is in him - tormenting him)

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7



(Paul resorts to sneaky, under-handed tactics - WWJD?)

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal whith us in the things they boast about." II Cor 11:12



(Nothing seems to stop Paul from his boasting)

"I must go on boasting." II Cor 12:1



(Paul's threat to punish - what happened to the love of Christ?)

"On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others," II Cor 13:2 B


Is this who founded the Christian religion? A man who admits that Satan is in him tormenting him? Again - what about this self-confession of demon possession:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7


Are Christians really that quick to accept the teachings of a man who openly admits that a messenger of Satan (demon) is tormenting him...?

Especially when Jesus' works/miracles included healing the demon-possesed and casting out demons?

Do you not think that Jesus would have wanted to 'cleanse' or heal the "supposed" apostle to the gentiles? Couple this with the fact that Paul's initial "supposed" contact with Jesus resulted in blindness?

What if your preacher got up in your pulpit this Sunday, and then proceeded to tell you that a messenger from Satan resided in him... then why would you allow him to continue to preach the Word?

Looking forward to some wonderful insight, and discussion as we discern the Truth together.

Michael111


If you are here to make trouble Michael...well you just bumped into her. Are you an Apostle? No Paul was accepted by the disciples as a follower and a welcome addition. READ acts 9. Do you even read the BIBLE??????

[Granite]

Eden wrote:

"You guessed it... THE APOSTLE PAUL. He was the self-proclaimed apostle that founded the church of Ephesus. He was a liar, and was not an apostle of Jesus. He was counterfeit."

I see. So every time a church fails or slips into false doctrine we should automatically blame the founder of the church.

I don't know if Eden a) plagarized this from some whacko, b) is just trying to stir the pot, or c) has a bone to pick with something Paul wrote--something specific that Eden hasn't gotten to yet.

"Paul's tasteless rant aimed at those of the circumcision - he wants some to just go ahead and cut it all off...? Why do people defending the devil when he exposes HIMSELF as that via the scripture? And for those who feel that I am taking something 'out of context'..."

Maybe it's just me, but is there anything un-Christlike about taking the gloves off and really hammering at someone? Eden's real beef seems to be that Paul's style is TASTELESS. Oh, heavens. God forbid we should OFFEND somebody. Paul got right in the face of his opponents. Big deal. This is the same guy who called the Jewish high priest a white-washed wall. Paul wasn't big on making sure he made everybody comfy.

The fact that we actually need to debate the virtues of an apostle is appalling.

granite

[duel]

I enjoyed reading the topic you had regarding Paul. I was wondering what reference collection you sourced this from?

Islam has typically taught Paul as, "The Liar". And James, "The Righteous".

Daniel

[Granite]

Originally posted by duel
I enjoyed reading the topic you had regarding Paul. I was wondering what reference collection you sourced this from?

Islam has typically taught Paul as, "The Liar". And James, "The Righteous".

Daniel

Interesting. If someone's worthy of criticism by an enemy of Christianity, that's usually a good sign.

granite

[Adambassador]

I would also like to add that many Mormons don't like Paul because of his - grace, not works - message.

Michael, who is your teacher?

[Charismata]

Blame it on Paul (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/blameonpaul.htm)
Paul's Big Idea (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/paulbigidea.htm)
Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Relgions? (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0169a.html)
Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Philosophy? (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0163a.html)
Were the New Testament Authors Influenced by Pagan Legend? (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat2.html)
Was Jesus Just a Copycat Savior Myth? (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html)


Was Paul a Deceiver?
The popular myth that Paul was deceptive is expressed by writers such as Gerald Sigal, Michoel Drazin, and Beth Moshe:

"In his overriding desire to convert the masses to his beliefs, Paul is guided by the dubious assumption that the end justifies the means...The use of deception, by himself or others, in order to bring about belief in Jesus did not disturb Paul."

--Gerald Sigal, The Jew and the Christian Missionary: A Jewish Response to Missionary Christianity (New York: Ktav, 1981), p. 272. See also p. 290: "he considered deceit and pretense valid means for achieving his goal."

Paul "openly advocated 'pious fraud.'"

--Michoel Drazin, Their Hollow Inheritance: A Comprehensive Refutation of the New Testament and Its Missionaries (Jerusalem: Gefen Publishing House, 1990), p. 18.

"We feel we should demonstrate the unreliability of the man who actually formulated the break away from Judaism by the early Church...Now see who he is, by his own words. He admitted using trickery and deception to gain his ends."

--Beth Moshe, Judaism's Truth Answers the Missionaries (New York: Bloch Publishing Company, 1987), p. 212.

The New Testament passage in question that supposedly reveals Paul as a deceiver is First Corinthians 9:20-22:

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.

Far from being deceptive, Paul, when he wrote the passage from First Corinthians, was drawing on Jewish communications methods of his day. Like other Jewish leaders, Paul was simply being a good teacher and communicator. What Paul sets forth in First Corinthians is not a principle of deceit and expediency, but a principle of communication such as was taught and practiced by Hillel and others. Craig Keener, Professor of New Testament, Hood Theological Seminary, places First Corinthians 9:20-22 firmly within a Jewish context.

Some Jewish teachers, like Hillel, were similarly accommodationists, to win as many as possible to the truth.

--The IVP Bible Background Commentary (Downers Grove IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993), p. 472.

Similarly, David Daube, a Jewish Professor of Law at University of California, Berkeley, wrote at length about Paul's principles as found in First Corinthians 9:20-22. The following is taken from a much longer chapter, "Missionary Maxims in Paul," which is found in Daube's book The New Testament and Rabbinic Judaism:

[This idea is] taken over by Paul from Jewish teaching on the subject: the idea that you must adopt the customs and mood of the person you wish to win over....

First, for the idea of accommodation. Let us start from a passage in I Corinthians [Daube quotes First Corinthians 9:20-22].

This attitude had formed part of Jewish missionary practice long before Paul. Two Talmudic illustrations of Hillel's work are relevant: he accepted into the fold a gentile who refused to acknowledge the oral Law, and he accepted another who refused to acknowledge any Law beyond the most fundamental ethical principle [b. Shabbat 31a and Avot de-Rabbi Nathan 15]...At the decisive moment of conversion, he fell in with the notions of the applicant and declared himself satisfied with recognition of the written Law or a single, basic moral precept....

Hillel, we might put it, was made all things to all men, that he might by all means save some.

[Hillel had a saying] which may chiefly contemplate relations to outsiders [Tosefta Berachot 2.24]: "Do not appear naked, do not appear dressed, do not appear laughing, do not appear weeping -- as it is said, A time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing [Ecclesiastes 3:4f.]....

In the treatises Derekh Eretz Rabba and Derekh Eretz Zuta, we meet with descendants of Hillel's maxim. The former contains this paragraph: "A man should not be joyful among the weeping, nor weep among the joyful, nor wake among the sleeping, nor sleep among the waking, nor stand among the sitting, nor sit among the standing--the principle of the matter is, A man should not make different his mind from that of his fellows and the sons of men." The passage from Derekh Eretz Zuta is substantially the same, with two exceptions: there is a further pair of warnings, "nor should he read Scripture among those reading Mishnah, nor Mishnah among those reading Scripture," while the summing up runs, "A man should not differ from the usage of the creatures."

These paragraphs are evidence that Hillel's idea was taken up by others and lived on....

[It is] rather probable that Hillel did intend his maxim [cited above from Tosefta Berachot 2:24], which refers to behaviour among strangers, for use in missionary activity.

For another thing, in establishing the Jewish antecedents of Paul's plan, we need not rely exclusively on Hillel and sayings derived from him. In the Letter of Aristeas, the king asks how he might meet with acceptance when travelling abroad; and the answer opens, "By becoming equal to all," pasin isos ginomenos. As it stands, it is advice for a traveller -- a traveller who wishes to find favour with his hosts. Moreover, the term "equal" has a political sense: the traveller is a king, and he is advised to make light of his rank. None the less it may be assumed that, as early as the time the Letter was composed, this was also a slogan of proselyte-makers. The author of the Letter himself was a Jewish propagandist.

Paul, when he wrote the passage from I Corinthians quoted at the beginning, was drawing on a living element in Jewish religion.

--David Daube, The New Testament and Rabbinic Judaism (Salem, NH: Ayer Company, Publishers, Inc., 1992, © 1956, 1973), pp. 336-41 passim.

[Beacon]

Michael - I'd like to know more about your reasons for starting this thread. What do you believe and where did you come by the information you posted?

Beacon

[Kronus]

Charismata:

Thank you for taking the time and effort to link us to the source data of this screed.

Granite:

You put it best:

The fact that we actually need to debate the virtues of an apostle is appalling.

[Charismata]

:)

[Granite]

:cool:

[JackRUS]

Michael's hit and run post was the worst example of taking statements out of context to form a lie that I have ever read.

:down:

[duel]

Originally posted by JackRUS
Michael's hit and run post was the worst example of taking statements out of context to form a lie that I have ever read.

:down:

Agreed, but those ignorant of the mystery would be very susceptible to being duped.

Daniel

[MichaelEden]

For those who ask who my teacher is - it is Jesus Christ.
The scriptures reveal many things to those who seek the Truth.

In the case of Paul, Jesus showed me through the Holy Spirit, that he was not a true apostle. And if anyone reads his epistles very carefully - they will find evidence of Paul mis-quoting scripture, presenting personal opinions as truth, boasting, passing judgment, speaking harshly, lying, etc...

this passage ALONE should send up 'red flags':

"That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17

Here in the very pages of scripture is a man admitting that he speaks things "not after the Lord" and admits to speaking "foolishly" in addition to speaking all of this in the "confidence of boasting"

Can you say 'What's wrong with this picture?'



...more demonic 'leaven':



(Paul vengefully advocates that his enemies - circumcised Jews - castrate themselves)

"Brothers, If I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Gal 5:11-12




(Paul insults/passes mean judgment on circumcised Jews)

"Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh." Phil 3:2




(Paul blasphemously claims to know whose names are written in the book of life!)

"Yes , and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life." Phil 4:2



(Paul stirs up the other apostles with accusation and hostility)

"When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong." Gal 2:11



Blessings and Truth to all saints in Jesus Christ
Michael111

[Crow]

Michael--your grasp of Paul's pivotal role in the Christian faith is unbelievable. You have exibited zero concept of the difference between the circumcision (Jews) and the uncircumcision (Gentiles). Zero concept of salvation by works vs grace. If you are teaching yourself that Paul is apostate, then you have a fool for a teacher. And sweetheart, every bright idea you have is not from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not contradict the word of God, as the inane proposal that Paul was a false Apostle does. Peter even said Paul's teachings were difficult but they were true.

Michael, your first post in this thread was so insanely funny I passed it out to friends to laugh at. Michael, you need to get a good teacher and quit trying to teach yourself--you ain't getting it, son.

[duel]

Perhaps the Holy Spirit will also lead you to Moses (http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paula.htm) ?

[billwald]

Paul was probably an apostle but his letters generate several problems. First, half of them are part of a 2-way exchange. They are like hearing one half of a conversation. Second, they are addressed to a particular audience. Third, Paul isn't as accomplished a writer as people think he is. (I would never submit "Galatians" to a publisher. It is bad writing.)

The main problem is that people read "Christian" theology back into Paul. Most of his writing makes sense if you take it at face value and not try to "say" what it "means."

[Goose]

"...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." - 2Pe 3:15-16

[Turbo]

Goose (and Crow), I posted the same passage in Post 4 (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=292926#post292926) of this thread, but got no response from MichaelEden. I wonder why...

[Crow]

Who knows? You could tell by the lead post what you were stepping into.

[Goose]

Originally posted by Turbo
Goose (and Crow), I posted the same passage in Post 4 (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=292926#post292926) of this thread, but got no response from MichaelEden. I wonder why... LOL Sometimes I just wish Paul would come back and set the record straight. :)

[MichaelEden]

For those who study and search scripture, and who trust in the Holy Spirits guidance...

God's Word REVEALS many things. No "man" taught me that the apostle Paul was not a true apostle... Holy Spirit led study of scriptures revealed this. Have you not heard that God works in mysterious ways? Jesus spoke of the mysteries that would be revealed to those who seek with all of their heart and soul:


Mt 10:26 -
Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Mt 11:25 -
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Mt 16:17 -
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Lu 12:2 -
For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.


My Savior warned - via the pages of scripture - to beware of the 'leaven' of organized religion, because mixed in with the good would be false doctrine, hypocrisy, etc...


For example:

Jesus taught: "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:" (Luke 6:37)

Paul taught: "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed." (I Cor 5:3)

Paul then calls himself out by casting judgment: "But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Who is Paul to judge someone's deed, or whether someone is wicked, or not?

Here is but ONE example of Paul contradicting Jesus Christ's gospel.


Michael111

[Granite]

Eden, I don't care how real your Holy Spirit seemed to you (if indeed you're sincere in this nonsense you're peddling, and aren't simply trying to cause as much trouble as possible). We're also warned that the devil can transform himself into an angel of light. Plenty of people over the years have claimed to had a special revelation. Joseph Smith and other heretics are among them.

You are either ignorant, deluded, or a fool. Or possibly all of the above.

Goose, Crow, and Turbo have all given you the words of Peter--and his support for Paul is unequivocal. Deal with that before making your inane, ludicrous, half-baked, sick, and perverse accusations about an apostle.

And yes, I'm being as judgmental as I possibly can.

Cheers!

granite

[Goose]

Granite1010,

You're my hero of the day. :)

[Crow]

Granite sounds judgemental. I like, I like!

[Granite]

I always sound my best when the game is Righteous Indignation.

granite

:D

[prodigalson]

Goose, Crow, and Turbo have all given you the words of Peter--and his support for Paul is unequivocal. Deal with that before making

I guess that would be game, set, and match.

[MichaelEden]

Originally posted by Goose
LOL Sometimes I just wish Paul would come back and set the record straight. :)



He doesn't have to.

He left behind 14 epistles containing evidence of mis-quoting scripture, boasting, personal opinions presented as truth, judgment, etc...

He left quite a record for those of us willing to search out the Word of God for the truth. The Bible itself is a revelation.

Michael111

[Granite]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
He doesn't have to.

He left behind 14 epistles containing evidence of mis-quoting scripture, boasting, personal opinions presented as truth, judgment, etc...

He left quite a record for those of us willing to search out the Word of God for the truth. The Bible itself is a revelation.

Michael111

So far, Eden, you're the only person here who's twisted scripture, boasted of personal revelation, and pawned off your own opinion as the truth. The Bible certainly is a revelation. And your denial of it proves you to be a liar.

Frankly I was expecting more from your latest post--or maybe that's hoping for too much.

I'll ask a serious question and try not to use you too much as a punching bag: what is your solution to the breath taking discovery that Paul was not a true servant of Christ? What would you have the church do?

Not that I'm expecting a serious answer.

granite

[CrossPoint]

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.Titus 3:9

But of course that was Paul...he was only an apostle chosen by Christ himself.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
He doesn't have to.

He left behind 14 epistles containing evidence of mis-quoting scripture, boasting, personal opinions presented as truth, judgment, etc...

He left quite a record for those of us willing to search out the Word of God for the truth. The Bible itself is a revelation.

Michael111

Dangit Eden! Answer the questions that everyone has asked you! If Jesus Christ has taught you through the Spirit and scripture that Paul is a deceiver, then answer our counter-examples.

You can't, can you? Either these objections to your rant fill you with fear and uncertainty, or they simply roll off your foolish back.

Answer them, wimp!

[philosophizer]

And if you won't answer, I'll respond to you piece by piece.

Originally posted by MichaelEden
(stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8 Paul, while preaching in Corinth, did not take any money from them as other preachers may have done in order to impress them. He did not accept aid from the people of Corinth but received it through the Lord's provision from other churches and other church brothers.


(boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18This is a clever and humorous rebuke of worldly boasting. Paul's being sarcastic. It's part of his preaching style. If you can't see beyond this you must be blind.


(speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17See above. And also check out 2 Corinthians 11:30-31. If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.


(trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16This is where he turns his preaching around. He turns the tables on them. He was acting a fool to expose it in his audience. Fine example of his brilliant preaching abilities.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
We've been warned before about "devils in disguise" as "angels of light"... Here is a scriptural look into the mind of a deceiver - via the pages of Corinthians I and II. The devil's in the details:


(Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/161 Corinthians 4:18-21 -- 18Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?
Paul was saying that they needed leadership. They had plenty of "guardians" (brothers, sisters, peers) but had no "fathers" (leaders), and were thus becoming arrogant. There were growing problems, as we see in the following chapter.



(Paul decides to pass judgment on someone)

"And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just if I were present." I Cor 5:3What's your point? There's nothing inherently sinful about judging.


(Paul decides to consult with Satan, not Jesus, concerning the man he passed judgment on)

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." I Cor 5:5Right. Because this man was unrepentant. Even though this guy was sexually immoral in some way, he was proud of it (v. 2). This is good advice. This whole chapter is about expelling immoral brothers. If they won't repent, they can only be harmful to the church by spreading their pride and their immoral behavior. Paul says to kick him out and let his behavior come around to harm him in the way it inevitably will so it may strip him of his pride and cause him to repent.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
(Paul thinks he is better than anyone else)

"I wish that all men were as I am." I Cor 7:7Paul is talking about self-control. He acknowledges that not all people receive this gift from God, but he wishes that everyone could.



(Paul admits to injecting his own opinions into scripture)

"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):" I Cor 7:12Right. This is one of the many issues that Jesus did not speak of directly. Does that mean Paul had no right to say it? Only if you fallaciously believe (as you do) that Paul was a false apostle. But if you trust in Paul's calling by God (as the overwhelming amount of evidence supports), then you should trust also that he is proclaiming God's will, even though he isn't directly quoting Jesus. Verse 40 of this chapter alludes to that: 40In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.


(Paul, who is single, gives faulty advice on marriage)

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am" I Cor 7:8

"Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." I Cor 7:27 How is this bad advice? You intentionally took it out of the context of the following verse. Are you willfully deceptive?! 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 -- 8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

And verse 27 should be taken in the context of the whole last bit of this chapter in which Paul is warning against becoming engrossed in worldly things.


(Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)

"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29No, you're wrong, and apparently stupid. See above.



(Paul advocates staying the same and not progressing forward)

"Each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him." I Cor 7:20 This means that you don't have to drastically change who you are, what you do, where you live, etc. when you become a Christian. Why not? Because, as Paul is clearly stating in this chapter and in many others, God is not concerned with worldly things, but with our spirits.


(What does Paul have against marriage?)

"An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:" I Cor 7:34

"But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please her husband." I Cor 7:34You really don't get it, do you? Paul is talking about lust. He wants people to stay away from it, but he knows that's unlikely. He wishes that people could wholly devote their lives to serving the Lord. He's truthfully being quite the idealist. But he also suggests that since his idealism will probably not come to form, people who cannot control lust (and that's most everyone) should marry. He does advocate it.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
(strange talk)

"In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is - and I think that I too have the spirit of God." I Cor 7:40You are accusing him of "strange talk"? I'll tell you, Jesus must have been far more guilty of "strange talk" than Paul. Most of the time his disciples didn't have the foggiest what He was talking about. What kind of an accusation is "strange talk"?



(Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)

"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

"If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11Okay. If you're going to call Paul a sinner because he makes a living from his preaching, then you're going to have to do the same for all the other apostles. This had been the tradition of the Christians and Jews since the laws of Moses. Priests lived off of the temple food.

Besides, if you'd have bothered to read any of the context, you'd see that though Paul asserts this right, he does not personally claim it.



(Paul loves the sin of pride)

"I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast." I Cor 9:15 Pride isn't necessarily sinful. I am proud of my Lord Jesus Christ. I boast of His deeds daily. Is that a sin? The boast Paul is talking about is that he has not taken any money while preaching to the Corinthian church. That's pretty amazing and gives good reason for respect.



(Paul decrees that a hairstyle can keep you from being a good Christian)

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a discrace to him," I Cor 11:14Now this is a debatable issue that actually deserves a whole thread of its own. But I don't think that Paul is saying that men with long hair are going to Hell. That would contradict everything else Paul himself says about the things of the world meaning nothing.



(Paul even passes judgment on growling stomachs)

"If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." I Cor 11:34This section seems to be talking about failing to realize the significance of the Lord's Supper. Most members of the church in Corinth seemed to see it only as a worldly meal and forgot about all the spiritual meaning behind it. A big theme of most of Paul's messages is that perception is a big part of faith and that we must act in our faith according to that perception. These people were not perceiving the Lord's Supper in its proper importance and were thus perceiving wrongly. And so they were damaging their faith.

In a very practical sense, Paul is talking here about how the ceremony be conducted. Everyone should wait before they eat and drink so that they know there will be enough for everybody. Apparently this wasn't happening: 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. This is selfish, whether fallaciously driven by greed in obtaining more of a blessing from God, or foolishly driven by gluttony in simply filling their hungry stomachs.

So is the growling stomach what is wrong? No. Is hunger wrong? No. But they had a problem in the Corinthian church. They needed to fix their faith by realizing the spiritual significance of the Lord's Supper they were taking part in. They needed to fix their physical hunger so that they don't over-indulge in the bread and wine so that people aren't left out. And given this situation, a growling stomach could lead others to judge the commitment of the person who owns it to fixing the problem at hand. For God's sake, just read the context!

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
(Paul curses an entire people who may not have heard Jesus' gospel)

"If anyone does not love the lord - a curse be on him."So? What's God going to do to those who don't love him?



PAUL DISTORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD:

Here is but one time that Paul mis-quoted scripture. In II Cor 6:2 Paul asserts that God said something that God didn't:

For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of my salvation I helped you." II Cor 6:2

What Isaiah 49:8 REALLY says is:

This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances," Isaiah 49:8

Why did Paul lie, distort scripture? And how would any believer defend this as something "O.K."?You really baffle me. In Isaiah, it was referring to the future. When Paul said it, that propheys had already come to pass. That's why he switched it to past tense. So how did he "distort" it exactly?



So that no one will accuse me of taking anything out of context -A little late for that I will include surrounding passages in addition to referencing the chapter number and passage numbers for this next example:


"Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

---surrounding passages---

"In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool." II Cor 11:17

"You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!" II Cor 11:19


Here is Paul not only boasting as "the world does" - but expressing a "self-confident" attitude in this boasting! And then, shockingly, Paul confesses that what he says is not coming from the Lord. (who then is it coming from?) Then Paul admits that he is talking "as a fool"

A boasting, self-confident, self-proclaimed foolish talker who admits that he is not speaking godly wisdom?Oh wow Michael, you are so right! You are so wise and I'm just an idiot to believe otherwise. You really gots the smarts. I can't believe I've been such a moron for believing Pauls epistles!

There. Did you pick up on that sarcasm? Could you see that I was being facetious? Maybe you'd be more comfortable if every time Paul used this literary technique that he'd use one of these smilies: :rolleyes:. Would that help you realize what he's doing. Jeez! And you even tried to add in the context this time, though you didn't get nearly enough of it.

Maybe this will help you. Instead of just reading the epistles like words on a page, try to visualize them. Try to read them as if you are in a gathering of people listening to Paul preach. Try to picture how Paul would say these things and that might help you figure out why he's saying those things.




II CORINHTIANS BOASTING, DECEPTION, AND FOOLISHNESS:

(Paul causes the Corinthians pain and hurt on several instances)

"So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you." II Cor 2:1

"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while." II Cor 7:8Have you ever been hurt by the truth? If you answer "no" you're a liar. The truth hurts sometimes. And telling it can make people feel bad. Paul doesn't want his fellow Christians to have to feel bad, but he would rather tell the truth, even if it causes them pain.

[Granite]

Hey Philo...glad to see someone finally took the time to refute this half-wit line by line.

I think Eden is either a fool who truly believes this garbage--or he's doing this deliberately and trying to stir up as much trouble as possible, just for the fun of it. He's not going to respond to you or me or anyone else who's actually challenged him.

granite

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
(Paul shows envy of other apostles, false humility, a need for congratulation, and more foolish talk)

"I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the 'super-apostles', even though I am nothing." II Cor 12:11Once again, Paul is using sarcasm. He is "foolishly boasting" in order to make a point against those who foolishly boast.



(Paul admits that Satan is in him - tormenting him)

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7How in the name of heavan can you seriously see this passage in such a WRONG light? Do you honestly think that this means Paul is possessed or otherwise letting demons into his life? Have you read the CONTEXT?!

2 Corinthinas 12:5-10 -- 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul is obviously talking about how God's power is made perfect in weakness. God's great deeds that are performed through us need no power prerequisite from us. For if a man did great deeds by the power of God but had also personal strengths, he could brag about his abilities to do such good for God, or others might see him and his deeds and think that the power came from only him. God's power is made perfect in our weakness because it becomes fully obvious. When miracles are worked through men that have no ability to do anything of the sort, to God goes the glory.



(Paul resorts to sneaky, under-handed tactics - WWJD?)

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal whith us in the things they boast about." II Cor 11:12First of all, this is not sneaky or under-handed at all. He is openly stating is tactic. There are no hidden motives or purposes. Paul lays it out quite clearly why he is doing what he is doing. I'm sorry it went over your head.



(Nothing seems to stop Paul from his boasting)

"I must go on boasting." II Cor 12:1 You deceitful son of Satan! Now you are clipping off parts of verses from the rest. Taking verses out of context was low. But you just snipped out part of a verse. You are a spreader of lies! You snake!

2 Corinthians 12:1 -- I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.

I will no longer reply to any more claims of Paul's "boasting" as I've already answered it repeatedly. But not as though I actually expect a reply from you. You've probably already run off to another forum, you troll.



(Paul's threat to punish - what happened to the love of Christ?)

"On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others," II Cor 13:2 BWhat is the "love of Christ?" What is love? Do you know?

Proverbs 3:11 -- 11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline
and do not resent his rebuke,
12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves,
as a father the son he delights in.

Love does not spare discipline and rebuke. Where love is found you will also find justice. Love isn't blind acceptance. If there's a problem in your loved one, you rebuke it. If your loved one breaks the law, they must be punished. Fail to do any of this and your love is meaningless. Just a cover without care. A pretty blanket over a messy bed.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 -- 1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.



Is this who founded the Christian religion? A man who admits that Satan is in him tormenting him? Again - what about this self-confession of demon possession:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7Maybe you could use a thorn in your flesh yourself.


Are Christians really that quick to accept the teachings of a man who openly admits that a messenger of Satan (demon) is tormenting him...? Well, I'm not accepting your "teachings." What does that tell you?


Especially when Jesus' works/miracles included healing the demon-possesed and casting out demons?

Do you not think that Jesus would have wanted to 'cleanse' or heal the "supposed" apostle to the gentiles? Couple this with the fact that Paul's initial "supposed" contact with Jesus resulted in blindness?WHICH HE WAS THEN HEALED FROM! OPEN YOUR EARS AND EYES!!!


What if your preacher got up in your pulpit this Sunday, and then proceeded to tell you that a messenger from Satan resided in him... then why would you allow him to continue to preach the Word?You are twisting words. Paul did not say that a messenger of Satan "resided in him."


Looking forward to some wonderful insight, and discussion as we discern the Truth together.

Michael111 No you are not. You are a deceiver. You have taken verses out of context. You have cut parts out of verses to fit your point. You have defiled the Word of God. Insight we can manage. The Truth is easy to tell. But we've gone a little past "discussion." You have issued lies and I'm calling you out on the carpet. I have met your points and I challenge you to follow up.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Goose

"...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." - 2Pe 3:15-16 Wow! Those were the days... :(

[Poly]

Originally posted by Turbo

Wow! Those were the days... :(
Yeah, I know. Lighthouse resurrected this (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=614217#post614217) thread which brought back memories. :nono:

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by Goose

LOL Sometimes I just wish Paul would come back and set the record straight. :)


What happened? :confused:

[Poly]

Originally posted by philosophizer

What happened? :confused:

And just a few posts after the one you quoted of him he says...

Originally posted by Goose

Granite1010,

You're my hero of the day. :)

This was in response to granite saying...


Originally posted by granite1010

Eden, I don't care how real your Holy Spirit seemed to you (if indeed you're sincere in this nonsense you're peddling, and aren't simply trying to cause as much trouble as possible). We're also warned that the devil can transform himself into an angel of light. Plenty of people over the years have claimed to had a special revelation. Joseph Smith and other heretics are among them.

You are either ignorant, deluded, or a fool. Or possibly all of the above.

Goose, Crow, and Turbo have all given you the words of Peter--and his support for Paul is unequivocal. Deal with that before making your inane, ludicrous, half-baked, sick, and perverse accusations about an apostle.

And yes, I'm being as judgmental as I possibly can.

Cheers!

granite

Now both of these guys have become "ignorant, deluded or a fool. Or possibly all of the above". :(

[philosophizer]

:cry:

[Lighthouse]

:taoist:

[Granite]

Oh, yeah, sorry. Even with the conviction and fury I had (these days I just don't care what Eden does; he's good entertainment), I was never "really" a card-carrying member. Just faking it.

What a joke...:rolleyes:

[Geaney]

If you are here to make trouble Michael...well you just bumped into her. Are you an Apostle? No Paul was accepted by the disciples as a follower and a welcome addition. READ acts 9. Do you even read the BIBLE??????

Congratulations to Michael Eden for so expertly marshalling extracts from the writings of Paul himself which confirm that Paul was a false apostle and the very "enemy" (Matthew 13:25) warned of by Yeshuwa Hameshiyach.

In your attempted rebuttal of Michael Eden you wrongly state that "Paul was accepted by the disciples as a follower and a welcome addition. READ acts 9" .

Contrary to your assertion Acts 9 makes it abundantly plain that Paul, was NOT "accepted by the disciples"

"But when SAUL had come to Jerusalem HE tried to join the disciples; but they were ALL AFRAID OF HIM AND DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE WAS A DISCIPLE "(Acts 9:26).

Later Paul 'PAUL' COMPLAINED BITTERLY to his disciple Timothy: "This you know that ALL THOSE IN ASIA HAVE TURNED AWAY FROM ME" (2 Tim. 1:15).

More seriously as Michael Eden also pointed out Paul preached a completely different "Gospel" to that preached by Yeshuwa and His Twelve apostles of The lamb.

Yeshuwa and "the twelve apostles of The Lamb" (Revelation 21:14) preached "The Good News of The Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 24:14. Mark 1:15)

Paul preached THE LYING "ABOMINATION" (Exodus 23:7. Proverbs 17:15) which he admitted was "another gospel" (2 Cor 11:4) in which he teaches THE LIE concerning a "god that JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5) . 'PAUL and his CHRISTIAN MINISTERS give FALSE assurances to "[I UNGODLY...SINNERS...concerning his "god that JUSTIFIETH the UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5). [/I]

"YHVH Elohiym" (Exodus 9:30) emphatically declares: "I WILL NOT JUSTIFY THE UNGODLY"(Exodus 23:7) and further makes it clear:

"HE (Paul) THAT JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, AND HE (Paul) THAT CONDEMNETH THE JUST, EVEN THEY BOTH ARE AN ABOMINATION TO YHVH" (Proverbs 17:15).

Thank you for providing me with this opportunity to show that Michael Eden is not alone in declaring that Paul was indeed a "false apostle" (Rev 2:2).

Patrick Geaney

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Geaney, if you had anything remotely resembling a clue, you would have you would have also noted that this is an old thread ... and you would have seen that Michael Eden's OP was aced, laced, re-aced, defaced, disgraced, erased, and replaced.

Thank you for your time ... please try again.

[philosophizer]

Congratulations to Michael Eden for so expertly marshalling extracts from the writings of Paul himself which confirm that Paul was a false apostle and the very "enemy" (Matthew 13:25) warned of by Yeshuwa Hameshiyach.

In your attempted rebuttal of Michael Eden you wrongly state that "Paul was accepted by the disciples as a follower and a welcome addition. READ acts 9" .

Contrary to your assertion Acts 9 makes it abundantly plain that Paul, was NOT "accepted by the disciples"

"But when SAUL had come to Jerusalem HE tried to join the disciples; but they were ALL AFRAID OF HIM AND DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE WAS A DISCIPLE "(Acts 9:26).

Later Paul 'PAUL' COMPLAINED BITTERLY to his disciple Timothy: "This you know that ALL THOSE IN ASIA HAVE TURNED AWAY FROM ME" (2 Tim. 1:15).

More seriously as Michael Eden also pointed out Paul preached a completely different "Gospel" to that preached by Yeshuwa and His Twelve apostles of The lamb.

Yeshuwa and "the twelve apostles of The Lamb" (Revelation 21:14) preached "The Good News of The Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 24:14. Mark 1:15)

Paul preached THE LYING "ABOMINATION" (Exodus 23:7. Proverbs 17:15) which he admitted was "another gospel" (2 Cor 11:4) in which he teaches THE LIE concerning a "god that JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5) . 'PAUL and his CHRISTIAN MINISTERS give FALSE assurances to "[I UNGODLY...SINNERS...concerning his "god that JUSTIFIETH the UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5). [/I]

"YHVH Elohiym" (Exodus 9:30) emphatically declares: "I WILL NOT JUSTIFY THE UNGODLY"(Exodus 23:7) and further makes it clear:

"HE (Paul) THAT JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, AND HE (Paul) THAT CONDEMNETH THE JUST, EVEN THEY BOTH ARE AN ABOMINATION TO YHVH" (Proverbs 17:15).

Thank you for providing me with this opportunity to show that Michael Eden is not alone in declaring that Paul was indeed a "false apostle" (Rev 2:2).

Patrick Geaney

Here comes another knuckleball. BATTER UP!

[aikido7]

Jesus preached the coming Kingdom of God. What ended up coming was the church.

Each gospel preaches a different Jesus. Whatever specific cultural issues facing early faith communities determed the sort of Jesus they found and preached about.

Many faith communities today find a Jesus who condemns gays and abortion. Others find a Jesus who counseled a love of one's enemies and a recognition of God's unconditional love for all.

In Paul's letters, Jesus becomes elevated to claim the title of "Son of God" because of his crucifixion and resurrection. In Mark's gospel, Jesus is declared the Son of God at his baptism. Luke goes further back, declaring his sonship in the womb. John's christology has Jesus the Son of God exisitng before the world was created.

First came Jesus and his authentic historical words and deeds. Next came the oral tradition about his words and deeds. After that came the evangelists, who took the oral stories, memories of history and their own theologies to construct a Jesus that had meaning for them.

[Justin (Wiccan)]

First came Jesus and his authentic historical words and deeds. Next came the oral tradition about his words and deeds. After that came the evangelists, who took the oral stories, memories of history and their own theologies to construct a Jesus that had meaning for them.

:first:

Not that this statement is going to be at all popular, but that's what the history indicates.

[fool]

Jesus preached the coming Kingdom of God. What ended up coming was the church.

Each gospel preaches a different Jesus. Whatever specific cultural issues facing early faith communities determed the sort of Jesus they found and preached about.

Many faith communities today find a Jesus who condemns gays and abortion. Others find a Jesus who counseled a love of one's enemies and a recognition of God's unconditional love for all.

In Paul's letters, Jesus becomes elevated to claim the title of "Son of God" because of his crucifixion and resurrection. In Mark's gospel, Jesus is declared the Son of God at his baptism. Luke goes further back, declaring his sonship in the womb. John's christology has Jesus the Son of God exisitng before the world was created.

First came Jesus and his authentic historical words and deeds. Next came the oral tradition about his words and deeds. After that came the evangelists, who took the oral stories, memories of history and their own theologies to construct a Jesus that had meaning for them.
:BRAVO::BRAVO::BRAVO::BRAVO::BRAVO::BRAVO:

[Messenger]

The Way, The Truth, and The Life

A rich man asked the Mashiach (Messiah, Christ) how he could enter the Father’s Kingdom. Yeshua (Jesus) replied, “Keep the commandments if you want to enter life.”

What commandments was he talking about? Was it the commandment to ‘just believe in him and be saved’? Or was it the commandment that somehow ‘his blood would wash away all sin’?

Lucky for us, he does list the commandments to which he was referring. Most people would recognize them as the holy and righteous law that his Father YHVH (aka God) has always upheld. The life that Yeshua leads is no different than what his Father has always asked for. Yeshua is the example that each man and woman should strive to emulate. The 14th chapter of the Gospel of John offers several insights into this relationship between Father and Son. Here are a few quotes from Yeshua:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life;” (v.6)

“no one goes to the Father except by me.” (v.6)

“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” (v.9)

“The words that I have spoken to you do not come from me. The Father, who remains in me, does His own work.” (v.10)

“I am in the Father and the Father is in me” (v.11)

“I am telling you the truth: whoever believes in me will do what I do” (v.12)

“If you love me, you will obey my commandments.” (v.15)


This is the real gospel. This is it. The REAL DEAL. CASE CLOSED


Hmmm . . . this doesn’t exactly jive with what I’ve been taught . . . I’m pretty sure that the law is there to condemn us and that ‘there is none righteous under the law’ . . . yeah that’s what my pastor was saying last Sunday . . . oh yeah and my flesh will do what my spirit doesn’t want it to do . . . and man is ‘cursed under the law’ . . . yeah the law is a curse.

The Law is a curse? Your body does what your mind doesn’t want? There’s none righteous under the law? Have you gone mad child? Where did you get these teachings from?

Umm actually, it’s from a really smart guy . . . he wrote most of the new testament and he was God’s ‘greatest apostle’. His name was Paul.


Oh really, tell me what this Paul guy says then . . .


He says that nobody is righteous in Romans 3:10-12

10. As the scriptures say: “There is no one who is righteous,
11. No one who is wise or who worships God.
12. All have turned away from God; they have all gone wrong;
No one does what is right, not even one.


My bible says that he was quoting from Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53:1-3 which are basically identical passages. Let’s see what it says:

Psalm 14:1-3

Fools say to themselves, “There is no God!”
They are all corrupt, and they have done terrible things;
There is no one who does what is right.
The LORD looks down from heaven at mankind to see if there are any
who are wise, any who worship him.
But they have all gone wrong; they are all equally bad.
Not one of them does what is right, not a single one.


Wow. It looks as though Paul has twisted the Psalms to imply that everyone is like that; not just the fools. If I keep reading what does Psalm 14:4 say?

“Don’t they know?” asks the LORD. “Are all these evildoers
ignorant? They live by robbing my people and they never pray to me.”



From this we can deduce that the LORD’s people are not included in the group that Paul describes. Paul twists the meaning of “no one” as written in the Psalms to include more people than just the ‘evildoers’ and ‘fools’. The LORD’s people are righteous because they do keep his Law.




Why don’t we have a look at Paul’s “conversion story”

Acts 9:3-7

3. As Saul was coming near the city of Damascus, suddenly a light from the sky flashed around him.
4. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?”
5. “Who are you, Lord?” he asked. “I am Jesus, whom you persecute”, the voice said.
6. “But get up and go into the city, where you will be told what you must do.”
7. The men who were traveling with Saul had stopped, not saying a word; they heard the voice but could not see anyone.


Why don’t you tell it again Paul . . .

Acts 22:6-9

6.“As I was traveling and coming near Damascus, about midday a bright light from the sky flashed suddenly around me.
7. I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?’
8. ‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked. I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you persecute,’ he said to me.
9. The men with me saw the light, but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me.”


Hmmm, I wonder why he can’t tell his story the same way twice in a row? Did the men see the light or did they hear the voice? Which is it Paul? Maybe he just made the whole thing up?


Paul said in 2 Corinthians 11: 16-18

16. I repeat: no one should think that I am a fool. But if you do, at least accept me as a fool, just so I will have a little to boast of.
17. Of course what I am saying now is not what the Lord would have me say; in this matter of boasting I am really talking like a fool.
18. But since there are so many who boast for merely human reasons, I will do the same.

???? What? The more I look at this ‘Paul’ scripture the more it seems like he’s crazy. In Jeremiah 9:24, YHVH says, “If anyone wants to boast, he should boast that he knows and understands me,”

John 7:18

[Yeshua said,] “A person who speaks on his own authority is trying to gain glory for himself.”


Paul says in Romans 3:20 “For no one is put right in God’s sight by doing what the Law requires; what the Law does is to make man know he sinned.”


??????? Does this even require a rebuttal? Can I not just direct you to the teachings of the Messiah outlined in the start of this paper? The way into the Kingdom of heaven is to do what the Law requires . . . this truth coming straight from the mouth of Yeshua. (“Keep the commandments if you want to enter life.”)


The truth of the matter is that basically all of Paul’s writings are twisted and confusing. Why would God have and apostle that was difficult to understand? That just doesn’t make any sense. Keep comparing “Paul’s Gospel” to the true gospel of the real Messiah and the real apostles (Matthew and John), and you’ll see the difference is like night and day . . . spiritual night and day.


I would like to thank the members of www.riversofrevelation.com/forum for their insight and support.

[RayOfLight]

Messenger wrote Why don’t we have a look at Paul’s “conversion story”
Sure... Why not? LOL. :idea:


Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood speechless (Acts 9:7)
and
Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate (Acts 26:14)

ACTS 26:14: And when they had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me...
Acts 9:7: The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.
While we are at it, let's add the other account...
Acts 22:9: My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

Obviously, according to the NIV translation, there is no contradiction, as you can hear a sound, but not the recognize it as the voice of one speaking. So is this translation justified? Sure. The original Greek makes a distinction between hearing a sound as a noise and hearing a voice as a thought-conveying message. Haley notes "The Greek "akouo", like our word "hear", has two distinct meanings, to perceive sound, and to understand". This distinction makes sense also in light of the context. Recall the differing levels of perception. While the men heard an unintelligible sound and saw a light, Paul heard the voice and saw the person speaking. In fact, this type of distinction occurs in another place:

"Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again". The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him" [John 12:28-29]. Here is a clear-cut example where a voice speaks, but is heard by some as an unintelligible sound.

As for the stance of Paul's companions, Haley notes "the word rendered 'stood' also means to be fixed, to be rooted to the spot. Hense, the sense may be, not that they stood erect, but that they were rendered motionless, or fixed to the spot, by overpowering fear". It is also entirely plausible that when they first saw the great light, they "hit the dirt", then they could have got up off the ground and stood there motionless.

The problem with (your) approach is that it assumes these accounts are exhaustive, step by step, accounts where each detail is conveyed. They are not. It's not as if the author of Acts is saying "this is how it happened" three separate times. The author does this once, and the other two times he relays Paul speaking about it in two different contexts. Now given that the author wasn't on the road to Damascus, and given that Paul was speaking from memory, and given that none of these are meant to be some exhaustive, detailed, point by point description, it is indeed wise to fit them all together. Furthermore, the account in Acts 26 relays a speech that Paul gave to King Agrippa which was only a synopsis. Acts 26 simply relays the manner in which Paul chose to convey his points.

by Bumbulis, Smith, and White

[Turbo]

Messenger,

Do you believe that the non-Pauline Scriptures (the Law, the Prophets, the Writings, the Gospels, Acts, the non-Pauline epistles, and Revelation) are the infallible and authoritative word of God?

Please specify which, if any, of their Scriptures you accept as authoritative and which, if any, you do not.

(Please keep your answer brief and direct.)

[RayOfLight]

Messenger wrote
Keep comparing “Paul’s Gospel” to the true gospel of the real Messiah and the real apostles (Matthew, Mark, and John), and you’ll see the difference is like night and day . . . spiritual night and day.

Oh, please do everyone (compare Paul with Jesus). For in doing so, you will see that they are not contradictory, but complimentary.

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man …"(John 3:13).

"He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all." (John 3:31).

Jesus Himself said He came down from heaven, which most understand as His incarnation.

"For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." (John 6:33).

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 6:38 ).

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." (John 6:51)

Was Paul ignorant of this event? Absolutely not. For He mentioned this at least one for sure, if not twice.

"And so it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit....The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven." (1 Corinthians 14:45-47).


For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich. (2 Corinthians 8:9)

Paul was definately in agreement with Jesus, and offers two complimentary passages with John's Gospel and Jesus' Words Himself. But this doesn't come close to the complimentary teachings Paul gives in relation to the apostles Matthew and John, not to mention Jesus' teachings Himself. I mean, see for yourself:

(JESUS) Luke 6.27-28: "Love your enemies...bless those who curse you"
(JESUS) Matt 5.24: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"
(PAUL) Romans 12.14: "Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse"

(JESUS) Mark 7:15: "there is nothing outside the man which going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.
(PAUL) Romans 14:14: " I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is profane in itself"

(JESUS) Matt 17:20: "if you have faith...you will say to this mountain, 'Move'..."
(PAUL) I Cor 13.2: "if I have all faith so as to move mountains..."

(JESUS) Matt 19.21: "If you would be perfect, go, sell all your possessions and give to the poor..."
(PAUL) I Cor 13.3: "if I give away all my possessions..." (contra Rabbinical advice! Cf. b. Ketubot 50a and Mishnah Arakin 8.4)

(JESUS) Matt 24.43: "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 "For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
(PAUL) I Thess 5:2,4: "For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night...But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief;

(JESUS) Mark 9.50: "live at peace with one another" (verb forms are absolutely identical)
(PAUL) I Thess 5.13: "live at peace among yourselves"

(JESUS) Mark 4.22: "For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it should come to light.
(PAUL) I Cor 4.5: "who will bring to light the secrets of darkness and will make public the purposes of the heart"
(PAUL) Rom 2.16: "God judges the secrets of people, according to my gospel through Jesus Christ"
(PAUL) I Cor 14.25: "The secrets of his heart are made public"

(JESUS) Mark 14:36: "And He was saying, "Abba! Father" (very uncommon usage)
(PAUL) Gal 4.6: "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!""
(PAUL) Rom 8.15: "you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

(JESUS) Luke 10.21f: ""I praise Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding and didst reveal them to babes. Yes, Father, for thus it was well-pleasing in Thy sight.
(PAUL) I Cor 1-2 (various verses): "hidden things" (2.7), "the wise" (1.19), "the understanding" (1.19), "God has revealed" (2.10), "to infants" (3.1), "God was pleased" (1.21)

(JESUS) Mark 14:22-23: "And while they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it; and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is My body." 23 And when He had taken a cup, and given thanks, He gave it to them; and they all drank from it. 24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
(PAUL) I Cor 11:23: "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes." [the whole thing!]

(JESUS) Luke 10.7: "And stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages.
(PAUL) I Cor 9.14: "So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. "
(PAUL) I Tim 5.18: "For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

[Overall, there are significant amounts of allusion material in Paul to this synoptic mission discourse, some of which are as follows:

*the sending of the apostles on itinerant mission (Matt 10:2, 5/Mark 6:7/Luke 9:2/10:1; so 1 Cor 9:1, 5, etc.),
*their authority (Matt 10:1/Mark 6:7/Luke 9:1; so 1 Cor 9:4, etc.),
*to preach the gospel (Matt 10:7/Luke 9:2; 10:9; so 1 Cor 9:14-16, etc.)
*and to cast out devils and heal (Matt 10:1/Mark 6:7/Luke 9:1/Luke 10:9; so 2 Cor 12:12),
*their mission to Israel (Matt 10:5; so Gal 2:8, 9),
*"you received without payment; give without payment" (Matt 10:8; so 2 Cor 11:7; 1 Cor 9:18, etc.),
*"eating and drinking . . ." (Luke 10:7; so 1 Cor 9:4, etc.),
*"the laborer deserves to be paid" (Matt 10:10/Luke 10:7; so 1 Cor 9:14, etc.),
*"eat what is set before you" (Luke 10:8; so 1 Cor 10:27),
*"be wise as serpents and innocent as doves" (Matt 10:16; so Rom 16:19),
*"whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me" (Luke 10:16; so 1 Thes 4:8 ).

(JESUS) Matt 16.16-20: "And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
(PAUL) Gal 1.15,16: "But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,

(JESUS) Mark 10.9f: "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." 10 And in the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
(PAUL) I Cor 7.10-11: But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11 (but if she does leave, let her remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not send his wife away

(JESUS) Matt 22.21: "Then He *said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." (reference to taxes and tribute)
(PAUL) Romans 13.7: "Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor" [linguistic forms are identical]

(JESUS) Matt 20.26: "It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
(PAUL) Romans 15.7: "For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision

(JESUS) Mark 10.44: "and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. 45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.
(PAUL) I Cor 9.19: "I have made myself a slave to all..."
(PAUL) I Cor 10.33: "just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, that they may be saved.

(JESUS) Matt 5.33f: "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.' 34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; and anything beyond these is of evil."
(PAUL) 2 Cor 1.17-18: "Or that which I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yes, yes and no, no at the same time? 18 But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no."

To this list above could be added scores and scores (and probably hundreds and hundreds) of other examples, but that will have to wait for a different piece.

But not only did Paul know (and repeat) Jesus' teaching--often almost verbatim!--he constantly pointed his readers to the life of Christ as an example to follow.

Rom 15.1: "Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to his edification. 3 For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached Thee fell upon Me."
Philp 2.5: "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,"
I Cor 11.1: "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
Eph 5.1: "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us"

Honestly Messenger, I think you are the one who needs to keep comparing Paul with the Gospel of Christ. Yes, there are some differences, and i'll give you that; but lets keep in mind that Jesus was still under the old covenant, and Paul was God's chosen vessel to introduce and reveal the new covenant to mankind. So of course there are differences. After all, we do have two distinct covenants in mind! So in conclusion, if we are to really compare Paul's letters with the gospels and teachings of Christ, we can clearly see 1) Paul WAS NOT a false apostle, 2) they compliment each other, not conflict with each other. 3) Paul did preach the same/similar 'gospel' of Jesus and 4) Paul manifests a tremendous amount of common verbal forms and teaching content with Jesus 5) Refers his readers to the example of Jesus' life and character. :duh:

I have taken a good amount read above from Glenn Miller. See here for his whole article on Paul and Jesus: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/muslix.html

[RayOfLight]

It seems there are some here who have a misunderstanding concerning Jesus exhortation to "judge". Then, from this misunderstanding, they apply it to Paul, and say see here, Paul is expressing mean sinful judgments on people. Then conclude (from the misunderestanding of Jesus' teaching) that Paul was a false apostle. Really, they need to do some rethinking on what Jesus meant when talking about Judging, and making judgments. :Poly:

These people say (by Mike Oppenheimer): Jesus told us not to Judge." “Judge not, that ye be not judged,” No he did not. :nono: Read in its context, vs.2-5 goes on to refer to hypocritical judgment. A brother who has a beam in his own eye should not be judging the brother who may have a mote in his eye. In other words, you cannot judge another for his sin if you are guilty of the same sin. However if you take care of that sin you can help your brother.

The fact that His (Jesus') whole ministry was a judgment against the Pharisees who wanted him to agree with their way of practicing Judaism. To the Pharisees he said to their face, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh” (Matt. 12:34). He stood up to them to their face and called them “hypocrites,” “blind,” “blind guides,” “whited sepulchres,” “serpents,” and a “generation of vipers.” (read Matthew 23 to find out who the real Jesus is, not the tolerant scrawny mild manner milksop that some portray). John 3:19-21 “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” That’s judgment is it not?

Jesus in John 7:24 said to the people: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” so he is telling us to judge, and he is not contradicting himself elsewhere. Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets!” (Matthew 7:15) How could we obey and “beware” of “false prophets” unless we test them- that’s judging.

The apostles teachings are from Jesus and the spoke far more on testing and judging than even Jesus did, they named names (8 of them in the New Testament, as the prophets did in the Old Testament) and were correcting the church in their letters.

The New Testament tells us that the Spiritual man judges all things. If you are not exercising judgment then you are showing that you are not practicing the spiritual life.

So, for those of you who say that Paul was a false apostle and say we shouldn't judge, I really wonder if you sincerely mean that (both of the two statements above), because you are judging Paul and his letters, while simultaneously saying "don't judge" :rotfl:

Besides all that, you all must reject the Peter's epistles and apostolic authoratative teaching if you are serious in saying Paul was a false apostle. The apostle Peter, who knew both Jesus and Paul, said:"our dear brother Paul... wrote... with the wisdom that God gave him." So who should I believe, those of you here claiming Paul was a false apostle, or the apostle Peter who said he wrote with the wisdom God gave him? You know which one I must choose if I am to honor Yahweh.

[RayOfLight]

Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men

JesusofMessiah:
Note the bold print.This shows an exceedingly different approach to who the Son of Man / Messiah is under the doctrine of Christ Yeshua, and the letters of the gospels.

First, it seems that you either need to expand your examination of Paul's letters, or you perhaps are in need of an open mind, when approaching his letters. Also, check out other translations, to see how they render certain things. Once doing these, you will position yourself to see another perspective of Paul's letters and their harmony with the Messiah' teachings.

As for Philipians 2: 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (N.A.S.)

Notice the bold. It says the Messiah did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. Not only that, but Paul is pointing his readers to follow after the attitude and example of the Messiah. Next we have 1 Cor. 15:20 "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."

The bold sentences definately agree with the Father being greater than the Son in some sense.

Concerning the Christology of Paul, it is the same as what Jesus said in the gospels. Jesus Christ himself called our Father his “God and Father many different times in Scripture.

John 20:17 (KJV)
…I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Now as we look at what Paul had to write, we'll see that about this apsect of Jesus.

Eph. 1:17- I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

Rom. 15:6 - …so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 1:3 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort…

Eph. 1:3 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Peter also had the same thing to say about Jesus:
1 Pet. 1:3 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!

So, JesusofMessiah, it looks like your claim doesn't hold much weight. I suggest you do some rethinking, especially before you make baseless claims about that which is deemed as Scripture (Paul's letters) by Scripture (Peter). I mean, you never met and sat down with Paul, but Peter did, who walked with also walked with Jesus. In fact, Peter got his teaching from the living Jesus himself. So again, I think I will stick with Peter's teaching on this one.

[Messenger]

Messenger,

Do you believe that the non-Pauline Scriptures (the Law, the Prophets, the Writings, the Gospels, Acts, the non-Pauline epistles, and Revelation) are the infallible and authoritative word of God?

Please specify which, if any, of their Scriptures you accept as authoritative and which, if any, you do not.

(Please keep your answer brief and direct.)

I believe the OT (Law and prophets) is legit (from what I have read)

I believe there are other books removed that are legit (eg: 2 Esdras is an awesome read with accurate endtime predictions like babies born 3-4 months early will live and run about)
(eg#2: Enoch [mentioned briefly in Genesis])

I believe the gospels are legit but Luke's contradicts in several places which makes me wonder about Luke.

Luke also wrote Acts which turns into a pro-Paul exposition. (Makes me think Luke was a big Paul fan)

Luke was not one of the apostles chosen by Jesus.

I read the Pauline epistles to check them out but do not believe he was an apostle of Jesus

I think Hebrews was written by Paul (just compare to see that)

I also wonder if parts of 2 Peter were forged by Paul, or a Paul supporter in order to give the impression that the apostles tolerated Paul

[Turbo]

I believe the OT (Law and prophets) is legit (from what I have read)

I believe there are other books removed that are legit (eg: 2 Esdras is an awesome read with accurate endtime predictions like babies born 3-4 months early will live and run about)
(eg#2: Enoch [mentioned briefly in Genesis])

I believe the gospels are legit but Luke's contradicts in several places which makes me wonder about Luke.

Luke also wrote Acts which turns into a pro-Paul exposition. (Makes me think Luke was a big Paul fan)

Luke was not one of the apostles chosen by Jesus.

I read the Pauline epistles to check them out but do not believe he was an apostle of Jesus

I think Hebrews was written by Paul (just compare to see that)

I also wonder if parts of 2 Peter were forged by Paul, or a Paul supporter in order to give the impression that the apostles tolerated PaulThat's quite a conspiracy theory you've got going there. It's amazing the hoops you will jump through to explain away the Scriptures that discredit your bizarre theology.

It looks like your position in not falsifiable: You presuppose that Paul was a false teacher and then call any evidence to the contrary lies or forgeries.


But at least you recognize that Acts is "pro-Paul." Maybe you could set billwald straight sometime.


A side note about Hebrews: I have compared, and it was not written by Paul. Paul's ministry was to the gentiles, and he always identifies himself by name in his epistles.

[Messenger]

People have written much to show where Paul and Jesus agree.

Here's my problem with Paul. Please tell me how to reconcile this if you can:

WAS THERE NONE RIGHTEOUS UNDER THE LAW?

In claiming that “there is none righteous, no, not one” under the Law, Saul of Tarsus, also called Paul, contradicted the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul says that none is righteous under the law, that obedience to the law justifies no one before God, and that the law was a curse:

Ro 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Ro 3:19 - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 3:10 - For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

But the Lord Jesus says there were many who were righteous under the law:

Mt 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Mt 23:3 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mt 23:29 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

In fact, some of the righteous under the law during the lifetime of both Jesus and Saul were:

Elizabeth and Zechariah, the parents of John the Baptist: Lu 1:6 - And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Simeon, who waited to see the Messiah: Lu 2:25 - And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Joseph the husband of Mary, and Mary herself who was chosen to be Jesus’ mother: Mt 1:19 - Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example,was minded to put her away privily.

John the Baptist: Mr 6:20 - For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.

Why did Saul contradict the Lord? The answer is simple: Saul misunderstood the relationship between the Law and the Love.

Saul preached that the law cannot justify or make man righteous before God:

Ro 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ro 4:15 - Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Ga 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ga 3:11 - But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

In contrast, the Lord affirmed the law, came to fulfill his part in it, and exhorted his hearers to obey it. Thus:

Mt 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mt 7:12 - Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

And the Lord added that, beyond or on top of the life that the law gives, he offers perfection to those who would follow him. Thus:

Mt 19:16 - And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

In summary, Paul’s gospel says: Never mind the law; just believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you are saved. Thus many believers disregard the Ten Commandments without feeling guilty, believing that they have been saved by faith in Christ, and that once saved, always saved. But if they cannot enter life, how can they go to perfection?

But the Lord’s gospel says: Obey the law and enter life, then achieve perfection by following him. Faith in him makes easier entry to life and achievement of perfection, because the Holy Spirit puts and writes the law in our minds and hearts. But the Holy Spirit does not dwell in unclean vessels. The correct sequence therefore is: Repent, forgive, believe in Christ, be baptized, and the Holy Spirit will indwell us and lead us to life (by obeying the Law) and perfection (by following Christ in agape love).

Paul quoted from Psalm 14 and used a tiny truncated phrase to make a huge generalization to set aside the Law. Fully read, Psalm 14 clearly states that while none is righteous among the fools and children of iniquity, God always has a righteous generation who keep the Law.

[Messenger]

Psalm 14:1-3

Fools say to themselves, “There is no God!”
They are all corrupt, and they have done terrible things;
There is no one who does what is right.
The LORD looks down from heaven at mankind to see if there are any
who are wise, any who worship him.
But they have all gone wrong; they are all equally bad.
Not one of them does what is right, not a single one.


Wow. It looks as though Paul has twisted the Psalms to imply that everyone is like that; not just the fools. If I keep reading what does Psalm 14:4 say?

“Don’t they know?” asks the LORD. “Are all these evildoers
ignorant? They live by robbing my people and they never pray to me.”



From this we can deduce that the LORD’s people are not included in the group that Paul describes. Paul twists the meaning of “no one” as written in the Psalms to include more people than just the ‘evildoers’ and ‘fools’. The LORD’s people are righteous because they do keep his Law.

[Delmar]

People have written much to show where Paul and Jesus agree.

Here's my problem with Paul. Please tell me how to reconcile this if you can:
Pauls ministry was a new thing!

[Messenger]

Pauls ministry was a new thng!

Satan wants you to think that.

For true instructions, go back to the Messiah

[RayOfLight]

What Paul was doing was showing that everyone who hasn't believed in the Messiah, is not righteous. They all are under sin, and Yahweh's judgment.

[Messenger]

What Paul was doing was showing that everyone who hasn't believed in the Messiah, is not righteous. They all are under sin, and Yahweh's judgment.

People who don't keep the law are under sin, and Yahweh's judgement.

Paul would have you believe that no-one can keep the Law. Just check my earlier post to see that this just isn't true.

[Messenger]

John 14:12 (King James Version)

12. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Christ did not work iniquity. If you do, that means that you serve a second master.

John 14:15 (King James Version)

15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[RayOfLight]

In summary, Paul’s gospel says: Never mind the law; just believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you are saved

Show me where Paul's gospel says that. Where are you getting your opinions from?

1 Cor. 7:19 - Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Rom 7:12 - Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Paul taught holiness, victory over sin, temptation, and satan. He taught against the desires of the flesh, that one should make no provision of the flesh. What I think you have done is listened to some of the distorted views on Paul, (which are incorrect) and then reject Paul based on peoples misrepresentations of him, when he doesn't teach what many understand him to.

[Messenger]

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Trust me, Christ will not be justifying anyone who remains ungodly. He'll be tossing them into unquenchable flames because they refused to stop serving other masters.

[RayOfLight]

Now you are just twisting Paul's words. What he is actually teaching is that Christ will save the ungodly sinner IF he puts saving faith in Christ. He isn't saying Christ will save ungodly people without them believing. Why you can't see that is a mystery to me. Maybe you don't want to, but you should be honest when handling what Peter called the Scriptures. When someone places faith, they are made righteous, and Paul taught they become saved (from sin's power) and begin a life where they cultivating holiness (with Christ living through them).

[Messenger]

Now you are just twisting Paul's words. What he is actually teaching is that Christ will save the ungodly sinner IF he puts saving faith in Christ. He isn't saying Christ will save ungodly people without them believing. Why you can't see that is a mystery to me. Maybe you don't want to, but you should be honest when handling what Peter called the Scriptures. When someone places faith, they are made righteous, and Paul taught they become saved (from sin's power) and begin a life where they cultivating holiness (with Christ living through them).

Do you think that Paul thought people should completely cease from sin?

[Messenger]

Here's what Peter thought of the ungodly:

1 Peter 4:17-19 (King James Version)

17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Paul says "Christ will save the ungodly through their faith". Peter says "not so"

[RayOfLight]

What Paul taught, was that the power of righteousness and the power of the Holy spirit working in the life of a believer, was greater than the power of sin and satan in the life of an unbeliever. This is the essence of what Paul understood grace to be! (Rom. 5:20) Paul taught that Christ' ministry is continued as He is "seated on high" next to the Father, while He lives His life through the hearts and spirit's of believers through the Holy Spirit. An the basis of this, Paul taught that sin should not have dominion over believer, and that we are not to let sin reign. Paul taught that we have been set free from sin, and that we are no longer slaves of sin, but now we have a new master. Righteousness! And he taught that Christ IS OUR righteousness. Paul taught that we are to be imitators of Yahweh, and since Paul understood the Messiah to be the image of the invisible God (Yahweh), that we should immitate Him (the Messiah). There is so much more, but Paul did teach what he recieved: the Wisdom of God.

[Messenger]

Romans 7:13-22 (King James Version)

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

(I am sold to my second master: SIN)


15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

I do know what is right, I just don't do it. Instead I serve a second master


16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

????? What Paul??? ??????


17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Here's a great excuse everyone: It's not you that does it, it's the sin itself!


18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

I know that I shouldn't sin, but I don't have the self-control to do anything about it


19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

I chose evil over good everytime


20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Like I said, sin has a complete grip on my actions


21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

So then . . . good = evil?



3 John 1:11 (King James Version)

11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.


Malachi 2:17 (KJV)

17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?

[RayOfLight]

Here's what Peter thought of the ungodly:

1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Paul says "Christ will save the ungodly through their faith". Peter says "not so"

You have a misunderstanding of what faith is, and what Paul understood the gospel to be. It was Paul we read of in Acts 17:30 that boldly proclaimed that "God now commands all men everywhere to repent". This is part of the gospel. Paul even says that he thanks God, because people obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which they were delivered. (Rom. 6:17). Even though they were slaves of sin (ungodly). That form of doctrine is what Paul called "the gospel of salvation" in Eph. 1:13. So in essense, Paul understood faith to be a responsive choice to obey and trust. So did Peter. That's why Peter promoted Paul and his letters.

[noneoftheabove]

What good is a book to an audience that cannot read?

[Messenger]

The section of Romans 7 that I just outlined is complete bull. If you want to defend someone who talks like that (seemingly schizophrenic), fine. Just don't expect me to believe that Jesus sent him when he says things like this:

17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

He is completely trying to duck the responsibility for his sins. He's saying that sin is a separate entity that somehow has gained complete control of him. Open your eyes please.

[RayOfLight]

Many understand Romans 7 to be about his pre conversion life. You appeal to this chapter of his work, and because of your misunderstanding of it, you dismiss Paul as an apostle? Paul's apostleship is rooted in his conversion experience. You should read some of Paul's letters closely. He is always having to defend his apostleship because Judaizers . . . Jewish Christians who wanted Gentile Christians to submit to the law of Moses in order to be saved . . . were always attacking him as not really being an apostle. He argues for his authority in quite a few of his letters.

To question Paul is to question the authority of the other apostles since the Peter, James, and John accepted Paul's apostleship (Gal. 2:9). It is also putting the writings of Luke into question since in Acts 13:1-3, Luke wrote that it's the Holy Spirit who set apart Saul and Barny for the work they were called to. It is also putting into question Peter's endorsement of Paul (2 Peter 3:15)


So to sum it up, if you choose to question Paul's authority then you have to question Peter, Luke, and James. As far as books of the NT goes, that only leaves us with Matt., John, 1, 2, 3 John, Jude, and the Revelation. But, if you reject Peter, you have to reject John as well, because John clearly considers Peter an apostle in his writings, as does Matthew.

Therefore, to reject Paul, if you want to be consistent, leaves us with only Jude. I think the NT is pretty clear that Paul was an apostle.

[Messenger]

Romans 7:17

17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

He's saying that he's not responsible for the sin he commits.

Defend that all you like, it's still wrong.

Rev 2:1-2:

1. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

How come Paul didn't mention any false apostles in his letters to Ephesus?
Hmmmm . . . I wonder . . . .

[Bob Hill]

Paul was chosen by the ascended Lord God Who had come to this earth as Jesus Christ. The gospel that God gave to Paul was brand new. It was a mystery that was hidden until God gave it to Paul.

Paul was persecuted by his own people because the message of the Messiah Who died for our sins, was contrary to what they had been taught. God changed the program and gave Paul this new gospel and the dispensation that went with it, the Dispensation of Grace.

When Paul was in the Roman prison, he wrote to Timothy about the situation of the different churches he had founded. In Acts 19:8 Paul spent two whole years in Asia. He, in Acts 19:8-10, “went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 10 And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Later, when he was in prison, Paul wrote in 2 Tim 1:15 “This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.” By the end of the first century, jealousy of Paul, Jewish influence and Roman law caused a vast number of people to turn away from Paul’s teaching. After that, the theology that the ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave to Paul was forsaken and great error entered into churches.

When Paul wrote to the Philippians in the book of Philippians, we see even at that time there were trouble makers. Phi 1:15-18 “Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: 16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.”

The church departed from the truth of the gospel very early. It was not really revived until the Reformation.

It seems that some would like to take away the Gospel of Grace that God gave to Paul to bring to the world. We must be on guard against those who would like to take away the Gospel of Grace that God gave to us through Paul.

Bob Hill

[Messenger]

Many understand Romans 7 to be about his pre conversion life.

how about this verse: (This is what he says after the other schizo stuff he wrote earlier)

Romans 7:

25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Translated: "I serve two masters"

[Messenger]

Paul was chosen by the ascended Lord God Who had come to this earth as Jesus Christ. The gospel that God gave to Paul was brand new. It was a mystery that was hidden until God gave it to Paul.

No way. God does not change. He has always asked the same of us. To repent and follow his commands. Even Jesus said the same thing. Look it up

Paul was persecuted by his own people because the message of the Messiah Who died for our sins, was contrary to what they had been taught.

Paul was persecuted by his own people because he was teaching contrary to Jesus and His apostles.

God changed the program and gave Paul this new gospel and the dispensation that went with it, the Dispensation of Grace.

Right, God would tell Paul the "new" program, but Jesus would continue with the "old" program because Jesus forgot to read His memos


Later, when he was in prison, Paul wrote in 2 Tim 1:15 “This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.”


They turned away from him because he said a lot of foolish things, boastful things, alternate "gospel", all the while preaching that while he follows "the law of sin", it's not really him doing it . . . it's the sin inside him doing it.

Sure he says some truth here and there, but come on guys, some of the stuff he says is ridiculous.

[RayOfLight]

Messenger,

I really don't have time for foolishness. I have brought some things to your attention, which are, if you are to conclude that Paul was not an apostle, chosen by the Resurrected Lord Himself, then you must at best question all of the writers authority and standing before God, and at worst, out and out challenge them. Why do I say that? Because they all stood with Paul, and acknowledged the grace that was given to Him.

Also, all you have been doing is bringing petty, unconfirmed opinions about Paul's teaching, and dodged my posts to you. You have asked me some questions about Paul and his teachings, questions I have answered. Yet out of honor and respect, why can you not specifically touch on my posts? For example, do a post by post response to the following:

To question Paul is to question the authority of the other apostles since the Peter, James, and John accepted Paul's apostleship (Gal. 2:9). It is also putting the writings of Luke into question since in Acts 13:1-3, Luke wrote that it's the Holy Spirit who set apart Saul and Barny for the work they were called to. It is also putting into question Peter's endorsement of Paul (2 Peter 3:15)

So to sum it up, if you choose to question Paul's authority then you have to question Peter, Luke, and James. As far as books of the NT goes, that only leaves us with Matt., John, 1, 2, 3 John, Jude, and the Revelation. But, if you reject Peter, you have to reject John as well, because John clearly considers Peter an apostle in his writings, as does Matthew.

Therefore, to reject Paul, if you want to be consistent, leaves us with only Jude. I think the NT is pretty clear that Paul was an apostle.

What do you make of this?

[elyah]

Paul was chosen by the ascended Lord God Who had come to this earth as Jesus Christ. The gospel that God gave to Paul was brand new. It was a mystery that was hidden until God gave it to Paul. Not so New!, ... The Gospel given by G-d to Sha'ul was predicated and had its footing and validation on;y in the Torah. Without the fulfilled righteousness of the Torah, their could exist no justification and actualization of the Righteousness of G-d.... ergo, the Mashiach was under compulsion to fulfill the righteousness of the Torah that the Word of G-d, indeed G-d's Word itself could be vindicated ant the Righteousness of G-s satisfied. What was new about the Gospel given to Sha'ul, was the mystery of imputed Righteousness made available to all men, as many as would believe, through the Torah Righteousness of the Jew Y'shua, our Mashiach. Rav Sha'ul made this known to the bene Israal and to the goyim (non-Jews), and reported that Y'shua's Torah righteousness was now available as imputable Righteousness via faith in the Completed work of the Mashiach.

Paul was persecuted by his own people because the message of the Messiah Who died for our sins, was contrary to what they had been taught. God changed the program and gave Paul this new gospel and the dispensation that went with it, the Dispensation of Grace. G-d did not change any program but he did provide an avenue of escape for those Jews which recognised in themselves a failure to meet his Righteous standards via Torah... Y'shua was Torah perfect,... lean what that means. He was not above the Torah in its Righteousness till he upheld and fulfilled its mitzwot (commandments), ... My people rejected Mashiach's gospel because the gospel and teachings of the Rabbinate spoke louder and more authoritatively to my people than the voices of the early Messianic believers... Under the persecution of the Romans and the subsequent persecutions by the gentiles... indeed even under the the misguilded affrontary of the church of Rome and the other denominations, ... my people have coalesced under the authority of the Ora Rabbonim (oral teachings of the Rabbinate , instead and in juxtaposition to the Torah), ...,. and this is the case for the current "church age," for Scripture tells us that , until the fulness of the gentiles be fulfilled, until the full measure of the outworking of the rule of gentile (g-dless) domination has actualised and has reached its apex in the person of the antiMashiach, until such a time, blindness in part has befallen Israal.... during that period eaches its fulness in the manifestation of the antiMashiach, ... but the Jewry will be entirely saved by the Mashiach Himself in the day when he heads off to Bozrah for the salvation of his people, ... Israal!

When Paul was in the Roman prison, he wrote to Timothy about the situation of the different churches he had founded. In Acts 19:8 Paul spent two whole years in Asia. He, in Acts 19:8-10, “went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 10 And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks. AND THESE GREEKS AND other GENTILES dispersed amongst them WHERE NOT MERELY HEATHEN gentiles in their religious orientation, but these were they (non-Jews) which had drawn near to hear and to be introduced to the Jewish G-d and Jewish thought and understanding.

They had had many encountered with the Jewish culture and Jewish religious thought and many had sought to learn of the Torah and the ways of the G-d and of Israal. A case in point was the Roman centurion who had even contributed large sums of money towards the Jewish building program...

Our Rav Sha'ul's (Paul) contention with the Rabbonim was over their Ora Rabbonim, (the Torah She'bal Peh, the oral laws, the traditions of the Elders built on the precepts of G-d's Words.... with good intentions at the origins..), ...These were yoked on the Words of the Torah She'bikhtav (the written Law, which was delivered to Moshe)... This is the root of the contention and not as is assumed in ill informed christian teachings...

Later, when he was in prison, Paul wrote in 2 Tim 1:15 “This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.” By the end of the first century, jealousy of Paul, Jewish influence and Roman law caused a vast number of people to turn away from Paul’s teaching. After that, the theology that the ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave to Paul was forsaken and great error entered into churches.[/quote} Well you've touched on the dynamic which was at play... but as to the depth of what each group was doing is something which the whole gentile church must better understand...

[quote]When Paul wrote to the Philippians in the book of Philippians, we see even at that time there were trouble makers. Phi 1:15-18 “Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: 16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.”

The church departed from the truth of the gospel very early. It was not really revived until the Reformation. It has not been fully revived even now! Its full revivification will come in the day when Mashiach comes forth for the redemption of his people Israal, .... but understand what I mean by that...

It seems that some would like to take away the Gospel of Grace that God gave to Paul to bring to the world. We must be on guard against those who would like to take away the Gospel of Grace that God gave to us through Paul.

Bob Hill Do not make an Idol of grace over sound doctrine....

elyah

[Messenger]

To question Paul is to question the authority of the other apostles since the Peter, James, and John accepted Paul's apostleship (Gal. 2:9). It is also putting the writings of Luke into question since in Acts 13:1-3, Luke wrote that it's the Holy Spirit who set apart Saul and Barny for the work they were called to.

It seems to me that Luke was like a journalist, writing down what he saw, and some times what people told him, just taking their word for it. He was a travelling companion of Paul.
I also notice that Luke disagrees with other gospels, for example, saying that disiples tarried in a certain town, when other gospels say that they were told not to and therefore departed. This makes me wonder about Luke.

It is also putting into question Peter's endorsement of Paul (2 Peter 3:15)

The book of 2 Peter is considered by most scholars to be pseudoanonymous. . and not written by Peter.

This is a tragic loss for Paul supporters because it is the ONLY time one of the original 12 apostles appears to refer to Paul in any of the books the 12 apostles had actually authored.

IMHO, the only part of 2 Peter that has any validity is the second chapter simply because it was taken from the genuine book of Jude.

And for anyone thinking that Peter wrote 1 Peter think again.

1 Peter 5:12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

Where else do we read about Silvanus :

2 Corinthians 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

Silvanus was clearly Paul's partner

Jesus gave us the prophecy of Peter's hands being tied (equivalent) so he is taken where he would not want to go ... if someone wrote something in my name after my death that I would object to in life, this would see me with my hands tied and taken where I wouldn't want to go.




So to sum it up, if you choose to question Paul's authority then you have to question Peter, Luke, and James. As far as books of the NT goes, that only leaves us with Matt., John, 1, 2, 3 John, Jude, and the Revelation. But, if you reject Peter, you have to reject John as well, because John clearly considers Peter an apostle in his writings, as does Matthew.

Therefore, to reject Paul, if you want to be consistent, leaves us with only Jude. I think the NT is pretty clear that Paul was an apostle.

On 1 & 2 Peter


I realised reading 1 & 2 Peter that the writers of the epistles couldn't be the same.


Number one: Paul or someone who agrees with his doctrine signs off in 1 Peter, after the writer has already signed off. Why?

Number Two: The writer of 2nd Peter supports Paul and his ministry, saying he's the misunderstood apostle. Yet you don't find Paul signing this epistle, why?

Number Three: The introductions to both epistles are vastly different and will show you how.


So this is how I came to my conclusion:



1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the Dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia,

1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.


2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, <------ Paul's fingerprints

-------------------------------------


Same? Well look at what its saying.


The one is saying that in obedience to God and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus we are sanctified.

The other one is saying by Christ's righteousness we have obtained like precious faith.


See the difference. Salvation through obedience, salvation through faith. Not the same Hey!






What did I find next:


We know that epistles are signed off, usually with Amen. This means this is the end of their letter. Their salutation, Right?


The epistle of 1st Peter seems to have 3 salutations;


1Pe 4:11 If anyone speaks, let it be as the words of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as of the ability which God gives, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory, and the might forever and ever. Amen.


1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, He calling us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little, He will perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

1Pe 5:11 To Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen.


Now get this!!



1Pe 5:12 I wrote to you through a few words, by Silvanus, a faithful brother to you, as I suppose, exhorting and testifying this to be the true grace of God in which you stand.

1Pe 5:13 The fellow-elected in Babylon greet you; also Mark my son.

1Pe 5:14 Greet one another with a kiss of holy love. Peace be to you, all those in Christ Jesus. Amen.



-------------------------------------

Did you see that? Paul or someone like him, tries by this salutation to take claim to this epistle, just like Paul does at the end of revelations. Why?


By the way something I found really humorous about Paul trying to lay claim to the book of revelations.

John says in:


Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come!
And let the one hearing say, Come!
And let the one who is thirsty come.
And he willing, let him take of the Water of Life freely.

So i found it hilarious when Paul takes over from John,

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.

In saying,.........Yes, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen.

He tries to make everyone think he is of the spirit and bride. Ludicrous!!!!!!





Anyways back to Peter.


We are to assume Peter wrote 2 epistles, why? because there are 2 in the Bible?
Well the writer of 2nd Peter seems to think there are 2 epistles.



2Pe 3:1 Beloved, I now write this second letter to you, in which I stir up your pure mind by reminder.


So where are they? the 2 epistles I mean, if I feel the writer of 2nd Peter is not who he claims to be?



And why do I think he's not who he claims to be? Get this!!


2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking for these things, be diligent, spotless, and without blemish, to be found by Him in peace.

2Pe 3:15 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).

2Pe 3:17 Therefore, beloved, knowing beforehand, beware lest being led away with the error of the lawless, you fall from your own steadfastness.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.



Do you see it. He is a big Paul fan. So much so, he says if we don't "get" Paul's teachings we are unlearned, unstable and led away with the error of the lawless.


Ha, Ha, Ha, how funny is that. We are led away in error. Hah.!!!


Anyways, so where are the 2 epistles of Peter then. Yes, you've been paying attention.


1. ( The beginning of the first epistle of Peter)


1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the Dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

1.b.(The end of the first epistle of Peter)

1Pe 4:11 If anyone speaks, let it be as the words of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as of the ability which God gives, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory, and the might forever and ever. Amen.


2. (The beginning of the Second epistle of Peter)

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, do not be astonished at the fiery trial which is to try you, as though a strange thing happened to you,

1Pe 4:13 but rejoice according as you are partakers of Christ's suffering, so that when His glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy.

2.b.(The end of the second epistle of Peter)


1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, He calling us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little, He will perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

1Pe 5:11 To Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen.




Ta dah!!! There you have 1 & 2 Peter.



Errr................., what about what comes after that you say? Well that my dear friend as you well know, that is our friend Paul or a friend of his, trying to say that this is a gospel that he the person signing ,actually doesn't agree with. Because Paul only tries to plagiarise that which threatens his lies, like John's Revelations, so maybe he taught his friends to do the same. Why do i say this? Simple.


Why do i say a friend, because although the statement at the end of 1st Peter looks like a typical Pauline statement, it says, peace instead of grace be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.


Look at what is written at the end of 2nd Peter. This guy is a big Paul fan.


2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


First, its such a Pauline statement to grow in grace and not obedience.

Second, where is Paul's salutation? Besides signing his own nonsense, he tries to sign on the bottom of other works to claim as his own to dispute the fact that he teaches error. So why doesn't he try and steal this epistle? Because dear friends it is in absolute agreement with his epistle.

Thirdly, look how it is signed off. Differently to Paul and differently to Peter.


2nd Peter salutation:


2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.



Paul's salutation:

1Ti 6:21 which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen.

2Ti 4:22 May the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

Tit 3:15 All those with me greet you. Greet those who love us in the faith. May grace be with you all. Amen.


1st Peter salutation:


1Pe 4:11 If anyone speaks, let it be as the words of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as of the ability which God gives, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ,

to whom is the glory, and the might forever and ever. Amen.



1Pe 5:11 To Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen.




So really the question is I suppose, who signed off the 1st epistle of Peter as:


1Pe 5:14 Greet one another with a kiss of holy love. Peace be to you, all those in Christ Jesus. Amen.


Was it Paul or a close friend of his?



Funny enough i would go so far as to say it was Paul because he says in:


Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

1Co 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss.

2Co 13:12 Greet one another with an holy kiss.


Or maybe because he also says grace and peace?



Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phi 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.


Anyways, whichever way you look at it. This person is not the writer of the 1st epistle of Peter.


However, the writer of the 2nd Epistle of Peter, definitely is Paul's biggest fan, no mistake.

[Messenger]

how about this verse: (This is what he says after the other schizo stuff he wrote earlier)

Romans 7:

25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Translated: "I serve two masters"

If I'm not mistaken RayOfLight, you seem to be dodging my tough questions also.
How do you explain Paul serving both the Law of God, and his so-called "law of sin"?

Yeah, that's right . . . it makes no sense.

[Bob Hill]

elyah,



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hill

Paul was chosen by the ascended Lord God Who had come to this earth as Jesus Christ. The gospel that God gave to Paul was brand new. It was a mystery that was hidden until God gave it to Paul.



elyah,

Not so New!, ... The Gospel given by G-d to Sha'ul was predicated and had its footing and validation on;y in the Torah. Without the fulfilled righteousness of the Torah, their could exist no justification and actualization of the Righteousness of G-d.... ergo, the Mashiach was under compulsion to fulfill the righteousness of the Torah that the Word of G-d, indeed G-d's Word itself could be vindicated ant the Righteousness of G-s satisfied. What was new about the Gospel given to Sha'ul, was the mystery of imputed Righteousness made available to all men, as many as would believe, through the Torah Righteousness of the Jew Y'shua, our Mashiach. Rav Sha'ul made this known to the bene Israal and to the goyim (non-Jews), and reported that Y'shua's Torah righteousness was now available as imputable Righteousness via faith in the Completed work of the Mashiach.


The phrase “dispensation of the mystery”, was brand new. It is found in the Greek of Eph 3:9: “and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ”. Both the Majority Text and the Critical Text show the Greek text as I’ve translated it. “the dispensation of the mystery”.

Here are a number of other translations:
ASV: and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things
Darby: and to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God, who has created all things
NASB: and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things
NIV: and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Any of these translations is OK, but I prefer to use the NKJV with a few corrections: and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created the all things through Jesus Christ.

No matter how you read it, it has been hidden from the ages in God, until God revealed it to Paul. Col 1:24-29 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

In Christ,
Bob

[Bob Hill]

Messenger,

You need Christ in your life. We are in the Dispensation of Grace. God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for you. God raised up Paul to spread this gospel to us Gentiles. This was something totally new to those who believed in God, but the dispensation of Grace that we are in was thought of before the foundation of the Earth.

The word dispensation means “the act of dispensing; a system of revealed commands and promises” (Merriam Webster’s Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary). In the Bible, it means the way a house is run. So it can mean the rules that God set out for a specific period of time. It could be the dispensation of Law. Or the dispensation of Grace. The word dispensation is used four times in the Bible. Here are the passages.

1 Co 9:16-17 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a dispensation.

Eph 1:7-10 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him.

Eph 3:1-6 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles -- 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel

Col 1:24-29 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

God dispenses certain programs or house rules in His own timing. Paul was responsible to dispense the gospel of grace that the Lord had called him to preach. God dispensed these truths, which were a mystery before. In the dispensation that God gave to Paul for us today, the believing Jews and Gentiles become one new body in Christ.

There are study Bibles and books printed which state certain dispensations. You can see a chart of the dispensations on our biblicalanswers.com site.

There were different ways or methods that God used for people to be saved in different dispensations. However, in every dispensation there is only one basis for salvation, through the blood of Jesus Christ. Old Testament saints didn’t understand it, but looked to God for their salvation. We look back to the cross where Christ died for our sins. That is why Acts 10:43 says: “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

Our dispensation of grace was hidden in God until the right time. That time was after Israel had rebelled against God. Eph 3:8-9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

In this dispensation of grace, anyone who believes becomes a member of the Body of Christ. That is what it says in Eph 3:5,6: which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.

This Body was prepared for us before the foundation of the world. When you and I trust Christ, we become members of His body. Eph 1:3,4 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.”

Eph 3:1-6 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles - 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel

Col 1:24-29 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

In Christ,
Bob

[nikolai_42]

If God doesn't justify the ungodly, then do you not believe what Jesus said about who is justified? Didn't the Pharisees receive their just desserts - they were zealous for the Law (just as Paul, being a Pharisee, was) but were not justified. Instead, Jesus said the man who is broken by the Law - and recognizing his inability to keep it - he is the one who is justified. The Law is not sin, but it can never make a man righteous. It doesn't clean the inside of the cup - just the outside. It is the man who recognizes the Law's futility in this way to make a man righteous who is driven to his knees with no hope in himself (which the Law promises - provided one can do the impossible). The Law says don't commit adultery, but Jesus says that it goes deeper than the physical act. There are none righteous. The Law concluded all under sin - and Jesus' declarations about lust, hate and uttering "fool" made it more clear that that was the case. So who can be justified?

Or do you believe that only some of us, like sheep, have gone astray? What was the purpose of Christ's coming if it was simply to point men to the Law?

Paul's explanation of the Law infuriated Judaizers for the very reason that it did not do away with it, but it recognized it as being incapable of saving anyone on this earth.

[Bob Hill]

Messenger,

Let me know what you think, Okay?

Bob

[Messenger]

If God doesn't justify the ungodly, then do you not believe what Jesus said about who is justified? Didn't the Pharisees receive their just desserts - they were zealous for the Law (just as Paul, being a Pharisee, was) but were not justified. Instead, Jesus said the man who is broken by the Law - and recognizing his inability to keep it - he is the one who is justified. The Law is not sin, but it can never make a man righteous. It doesn't clean the inside of the cup - just the outside. It is the man who recognizes the Law's futility in this way to make a man righteous who is driven to his knees with no hope in himself (which the Law promises - provided one can do the impossible). The Law says don't commit adultery, but Jesus says that it goes deeper than the physical act. There are none righteous. The Law concluded all under sin - and Jesus' declarations about lust, hate and uttering "fool" made it more clear that that was the case. So who can be justified?

Or do you believe that only some of us, like sheep, have gone astray? What was the purpose of Christ's coming if it was simply to point men to the Law?

Paul's explanation of the Law infuriated Judaizers for the very reason that it did not do away with it, but it recognized it as being incapable of saving anyone on this earth.

I'm not talking about Laws that clean the outside of the cup. Laws like washing your hands a certain way before eating. I'm talking about Laws that clean the inside of the cup. Laws like:

No God before YHVH

Love your neighbour/brother as yourself

Honour your parents.

These Laws stem from having a good heart, something that Jesus assured us was required to enter His Father's kingdom. I'm not here to get everyone to grow Rabbai beards and start ritual handwashing. I'm just here to say that obedience is required, and not just faith. I think you understand that nik, that we must wash the inside of our cups.

My problem with Paul, (and this should answer Bob Hill also) is that I'm concerned that some people relax on the obedience part of their faith because Paul tells them that their faith is righteousness in God's eyes. I'm sure there are people out there who believe Jesus is the Messiah, yet live in sin because Paul said that that's the way it would be. Well, you can't have righteousness without obedience. Just ask Jesus. Check everything he ever said. Jesus says that sinning is the result of serving a second master, and He also assures you that those who serve other masters will be weeping and gnashing their teeth.

Paul even sets people up to think that sin is a normal/natural part of their life and that even though they know the Law, they are bound to serve a second "Law of sin". He is telling people he serves sin, that he always ends up working iniquity. Where did Jesus say that those who work iniquity are going? Tell a tree by it's fruits.

Malachi 2:6
"The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity"

According to Paul's own writing, he was unable to stop working iniquity


Psalm 119:140-145

140 "Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.

142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights.

The commandments were not Paul's delight, they were his "curse"

144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.

145 I cried with my whole heart; hear me, YHVH: I will keep thy statutes."

Paul cried, (paraphrase) "I cannot keep thy statutes even though I know them to be truth. My flesh is sold to sin"

Galatians 3:10
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.' "

Paul even contradicts himself:

He says that those who rely on observing (keep) the Law are under a curse.

Then he quotes something that means cursed are those who do not keep the Law

The truth is that those who rely on keeping the Law (inside cup laws) fear YHVH and He loves them madly as a father for it.

[nikolai_42]

I'm not talking about Laws that clean the outside of the cup. Laws like washing your hands a certain way before eating. I'm talking about Laws that clean the inside of the cup. Laws like:

No God before YHVH

Love your neighbour/brother as yourself

Honour your parents.

These Laws stem from having a good heart, something that Jesus assured us was required to enter His Father's kingdom. I'm not here to get everyone to grow Rabbai beards and start ritual handwashing. I'm just here to say that obedience is required, and not just faith. I think you understand that nik, that we must wash the inside of our cups.

My problem with Paul, (and this should answer Bob Hill also) is that I'm concerned that some people relax on the obedience part of their faith because Paul tells them that their faith is righteousness in God's eyes. I'm sure there are people out there who believe Jesus is the Messiah, yet live in sin because Paul said that that's the way it would be. Well, you can't have righteousness without obedience. Just ask Jesus. Check everything he ever said. Jesus says that sinning is the result of serving a second master, and He also assures you that those who serve other masters will be weeping and gnashing their teeth.

Paul even sets people up to think that sin is a normal/natural part of their life and that even though they know the Law, they are bound to serve a second "Law of sin". He is telling people he serves sin, that he always ends up working iniquity. Where did Jesus say that those who work iniquity are going? Tell a tree by it's fruits.

Malachi 2:6
"The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity"

According to Paul's own writing, he was unable to stop working iniquity


Psalm 119:140-145

140 "Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.

142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights.

The commandments were not Paul's delight, they were his "curse"

144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.

145 I cried with my whole heart; hear me, YHVH: I will keep thy statutes."

Paul cried, (paraphrase) "I cannot keep thy statutes even though I know them to be truth. My flesh is sold to sin"

Galatians 3:10
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.' "

Paul even contradicts himself:

He says that those who rely on observing (keep) the Law are under a curse.

Then he quotes something that means cursed are those who do not keep the Law

The truth is that those who rely on keeping the Law (inside cup laws) fear YHVH and He loves them madly as a father for it.

Just a couple of thoughts. You point out that David speaks about observing God's Law - His precepts. David himself struggled with sin. He was by no means perfect. He struggled with whether or not to kill Saul when he had him in the cave. He did touch the Lord's anointed, but did not harm him. But when he saw Bathsheba, did he remember God's commands? Not immediately, but it wasn't long before his conscience was pricked by it (which is what the purpose of the Law is - to make sin exceedingly sinful). Yet EVEN THEN he continued to act to cover up his sin. This was a man after God's own heart? So when looking at Paul, it is apparent to me that he struggled as well. I see it nowhere required that a man be sinless until death from the point he follows Christ. That is to say that as long as he is genuinely following Christ, he will be free from sin, but as sheep, we still go astray. So the struggling with the flesh (which is what I read Paul speaking about in Romans 7) is a battle that is fought - not just once, but continually. However, as we learn to walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Paul also seems to speak as another man, often, such that the reader will identify with his argument. That is to say that while Paul himself may not have identical experiences (i.e. I don't believe he is saying that he is schizophrenic and does evil) he is expressing the sinful nature of the flesh and its inability to carry out what God has placed in the regenerate spirit to do. And, as I read the passage again, I see a greater emphasis on the influence of the flesh as it exists in the man who is under the law but not the law of liberty. The law of liberty sees the laws of God written on the fleshly tablets of the heart instead of in ordinances that were contrary to us. Before a man comes to know the Saviour, he is a slave to sin - no matter how hard he tries he cannot obey the Law properly. But once a man comes to Christ, the Law takes on a whole new perspective. It becomes a delight to fulfill. But that doesn't mean that the influence of the flesh is nothing. It must be overcome daily. That is to say, the adversary does not go away simply because man has the Law written upon his heart. It is still a struggle.

And if God asks us to forgive 490 times a day, will He not also forgive those who come to Him for forgiveness? And if Paul recognizes the evil influence in his flesh, then he finds the Law doing its work in his life. And if he forgives, will not God forgive him if he goes to God in humility and with a repentant heart (which he seems to evidence by his hatred of iniquity)?

One may exalt the law written on tablets (which is a good law). But by your words are you either condemned or justified. As Paul said, you who judge another - do you do what is unlawful? But if we show mercy...

[Messenger]

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Paul said he saw Jesus ... or did he encounter a localised false Christ that Jesus had warned about? LK 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Paul knows this 2COR 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
1COR 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

If people accept that Jesus spoke Truth, only then the answer to Paul's question is NO ... he has NOT seen Jesus because Jesus said nobody would see him in a localised place. Jesus warned that anybody who says they have seen him is to be avoided ie GO NOT AFTER THEM NOR FOLLOW THEM!!!!

Was the one who supposedly identified himself to Paul as 'Jesus' a false Christ as warned about by our Master or are they accusing Jesus of not telling the Truth in his warnings? ... do people believe Jesus or believe Paul? Did Jesus lie or did Paul lie ... easy answer ROM 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

2COR 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
(this word for 'messenger' is translated as 'angel' in every bible verse EXCEPT this one ... angel of Satan ... fits description of 'angel of light' Paul knows of)

Even if they check fruit and see that
Jesus delivers people FROM Satan while Paul delivers TO Satan ... opposites.

By the way, my name (Aaron) means messenger, I don't consider myself an angel


nik, you are right. As sheep we slip up. Jesus said His sheep hear His voice.
Jesus' voice was always warning to serve only one master. His parables were always illustrating to choose the Kingdom of God over other smaller things.
Not, choose the Kingdom of God and serve sin

When we sin, we are lucky if our Father leaves us alive long enough to repent. That is true grace. Not once saved always saved grace invented by people who don't want to have self-control.

The way you see it is correct, from what I can tell. But you're giving Paul too much wiggle room.

Romans 7

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Wrong, one can lust or covet, and know the feeling, without there being a law against it

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Wrong, without the Law, sin is left unchecked

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Makes no sense

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

I found it to be unto death because I had no self-control, and heeded not the Father's warnings
Look! Paul is disputing YHVH. YHVH says the Law is unto life. Paul says it was unto death because he could not (would not) keep it

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

I made sin my master, and the wages of sin is death

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

This is true. Paul knows the truth

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul says sin became very powerful because there are Laws against it. (that makes no sense) Paul says that the Law is only there to condemn you. Wrong, it's there to either condemn you or prove you righteous.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

I know what's right, but I'm sold to my second master : sin

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

I don't have any self-control, although I know what is right

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

What???? If I sin I keep the Law? WHAT?

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I'm not responsible for the iniquity that I work

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Actually the will is not present, or else Paul would not give in

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

I have no self-control

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I'm not responsible for the sin I commit

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

yeah right . . . . .

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

I know what is right

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I know what is right, but I am a slave to sin

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I suck, I wish someone could stop working iniquity for me, because I have no self-control

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I am a slave to sin but Jesus will save me even though I work iniquity [You all better check what Jesus said about those who work iniquity]

IF Paul leads even one person to believe that they are bound to serve sin with their flesh, you can guarantee that he'll never see the Kingdom of God.

[RhodaRose]

All Scripure is inspired. God sends good and evil for His purposes to fulfill His Will. This is where discernment comes in. God sends evil for correction (test) hoping to turn you toward Him and His Ways.

1 Kings 22:21-23 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom (crown) given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Romans 9:21-22 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow (tongue, but not arrows to kill); and a crown (wisdom) was given unto him: and he went forth conquering (testing), and to conquer (test).

2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

2 Corinthians 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

Acts 28:30-31 And Paul dwelt two (thousand) whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out (removed, taken out of the Way).

RhodaRose

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

[nikolai_42]

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Paul said he saw Jesus ... or did he encounter a localised false Christ that Jesus had warned about? LK 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Paul knows this 2COR 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
1COR 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

If people accept that Jesus spoke Truth, only then the answer to Paul's question is NO ... he has NOT seen Jesus because Jesus said nobody would see him in a localised place. Jesus warned that anybody who says they have seen him is to be avoided ie GO NOT AFTER THEM NOR FOLLOW THEM!!!!

Was the one who supposedly identified himself to Paul as 'Jesus' a false Christ as warned about by our Master or are they accusing Jesus of not telling the Truth in his warnings? ... do people believe Jesus or believe Paul? Did Jesus lie or did Paul lie ... easy answer ROM 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

2COR 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
(this word for 'messenger' is translated as 'angel' in every bible verse EXCEPT this one ... angel of Satan ... fits description of 'angel of light' Paul knows of)

Even if they check fruit and see that
Jesus delivers people FROM Satan while Paul delivers TO Satan ... opposites.

By the way, my name (Aaron) means messenger, I don't consider myself an angel


nik, you are right. As sheep we slip up. Jesus said His sheep hear His voice.
Jesus' voice was always warning to serve only one master. His parables were always illustrating to choose the Kingdom of God over other smaller things.
Not, choose the Kingdom of God and serve sin

When we sin, we are lucky if our Father leaves us alive long enough to repent. That is true grace. Not once saved always saved grace invented by people who don't want to have self-control.

The way you see it is correct, from what I can tell. But you're giving Paul too much wiggle room.

Romans 7

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Wrong, one can lust or covet, and know the feeling, without there being a law against it

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Wrong, without the Law, sin is left unchecked

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Makes no sense

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

I found it to be unto death because I had no self-control, and heeded not the Father's warnings
Look! Paul is disputing YHVH. YHVH says the Law is unto life. Paul says it was unto death because he could not (would not) keep it

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

I made sin my master, and the wages of sin is death

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

This is true. Paul knows the truth

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul says sin became very powerful because there are Laws against it. (that makes no sense) Paul says that the Law is only there to condemn you. Wrong, it's there to either condemn you or prove you righteous.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

I know what's right, but I'm sold to my second master : sin

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

I don't have any self-control, although I know what is right

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

What???? If I sin I keep the Law? WHAT?

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I'm not responsible for the iniquity that I work

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Actually the will is not present, or else Paul would not give in

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

I have no self-control

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I'm not responsible for the sin I commit

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

yeah right . . . . .

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

I know what is right

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I know what is right, but I am a slave to sin

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I suck, I wish someone could stop working iniquity for me, because I have no self-control

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I am a slave to sin but Jesus will save me even though I work iniquity [You all better check what Jesus said about those who work iniquity]

IF Paul leads even one person to believe that they are bound to serve sin with their flesh, you can guarantee that he'll never see the Kingdom of God.

Two questions here...

First, what made Adam and Eve ashamed of being naked?
Second, if Paul was a false apostle, shall we reject the testimony of Luke, Simeon, Barnabbas, Timothy, Mark etc...Shall we risk attributing to Satan the works of the Holy Spirit (as Jesus warned this is the unforgivable sin)?

Should we reject all of Luke's gospel? All of the book of Acts because Luke testifies to the apostleship of Paul as being oof the Holy Spirit? Shall we call them liars? If the Lord preserved His word, as He promised, then we should safely believe what we have. These words have all stood the test of time, tradition and torment.

Most of your objections are answered by the simple understanding that before Christ, the Law was the visible Master. It was an hard taskmaster and unforgiving. But we have a Great(er) High Priest who has made sacrifice for sins - forever - once and for all. We were sold into sin under the Law but purchased into the Liberty of the Holy Spirit (not contrary to the Law, but in inward conformation to it) in Christ Jesus. Paul was dealing with many who were still under the Law in ordinances. He himself was a product of that way of life. It should be no surprise that it still dominated much of his communication.

As an example, you say Paul debates the God of Israel by declaring the Law is unto death. It is unto death for all that have transgressed it. But for those that keep it perfectly it is unto life. Yet Paul is speaking with the understanding that none have perfectly kept the Law and so all are condemned to death under it. Paul ADMITS the Law was ordained unto life. He doesn't dispute that. What he does assert is that the actual outworking of it REVEALED that there was NONE who could stand under the sentence of the Law.

The entire OT was a revelation of (among other things) the great truth that there are none holy, none righteous, none perfectly lawful, none good save God. All are gone out of the way and gone our own ways. The kindness of God, however, is revealed to lead men to repentance. Himself bore our sins. We need not bear the sentence of the Law but instead live in and by Him who gave Himself for us to be a perfect sacrifice. That doesn't make the law nothing (neither was Paul trying to say that it did) but it does mean the sentence of the Law is not to be feared. Once we are baptised into Christ, we become a new creation. If we abide in Him we WILL love Him and keep His commandments. It isn't a matter of our will, but a matter of our perseverance in Him. Eternal life is NOT to keep the commandments. It is to know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

By the way...just a side note...Mohammed came out of the desert. He made claims for himself that Paul never made. Paul calls himself the least of the apostles and says he obtained mercy. Mohammed declares himself to be a great man of God. Paul is not AntiChrist as he does not deny Christ's fleshly manifestation on earth. Nor does he deny His Lordship, pre-eminence or Supreme Sonship. Mohammed, however, reduces Jesus to simply a good prophet. Teachings aside, Paul hardly seems like a scriptural AntiChrist.

[Bob Hill]

nikolai_42,

Thanks for your excellent post. Messenger has some serious problems in rejecting God'sWord.

Bob Hill

[elyah]

elyah,





The phrase “dispensation of the mystery”, was brand new. It is found in the Greek of Eph 3:9: “and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ”. Both the Majority Text and the Critical Text show the Greek text as I’ve translated it. “the dispensation of the mystery”.
In Christ,
Bob

Shlm Bob, You had posted: Originally Posted by Bob Hill

Paul was chosen by the ascended Lord God Who had come to this earth as Jesus Christ. The gospel that God gave to Paul was brand new. It was a mystery that was hidden until God gave it to Paul.[/quote}

It was in reference to this comment that I made my remarks.. For what you've posted would suggest that the Jerusalem Church which was under the combined stewardship of the other Apostles was either operating or had operated in the dark prior to Sha'ul, or at least had operated with less of a "Gospel" than what you attribute to the "brand new" revelation, that "dispensation of the mystery" given by G-d to the Rab Sha'ul.

But there is only one Gospel unto which also Rab Sha'ul alligned himself, and so such a concept as you would suggest (a brand new Gospel given by G-d to Sha'ul), is an error. The notion of an exclusively "Pauline Revelation," the Rab Sha'ul himself disposes of saying, "you are able to realize my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations, as it now has been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit, ... ergo, his is a shared experience, one into which the Rab Sha'ul has also entered into with those holy apostles and prophets in the spirit. It is not correct to assume that those Apostles and holy prophets had one gospel and then one "newer gospel" was given through Sha'ul, ...it is One Gospel to the Jew and to the gentile but applied in each context, differently and this is where the dispensation to the gentiles enters the picture....

That which Kepa had seen in his vision of the sheet lowering from the heavens with all manner of animals thereon to be slain and eaten figuratively, would become upon Rab Sha'ul's fuller maturation in the faith, the field of his ministry... and that is that dispensation of the mystery.... but if you are making Rab Sha'uls ministry to the gentiles, that dispensation of grace to the gentiles an all encompassing new Gospel which is to be fitted in a "one size fits all" manner over both Jew and gentile then you are probably mis-reading a lot of what Rab Sha'ul was teaching
.

[Bob Hill]

elyah,

I see in Scripture in the New Testament, that there are two gospels. The gospel that the 12 taught and the gospel that the ascended Lord gave Paul to bring to the World. Paul said he got it from the ascended Christ and it was new.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Yes, again, it was a new gospel.

Bob Hill

[RhodaRose]

Yes, I agree...it was a "new" gospel given to Paul...

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

[Messenger]

Two questions here...

First, what made Adam and Eve ashamed of being naked?


apparently they didn't know they were naked before . . .

Second, if Paul was a false apostle, shall we reject the testimony of Luke, Simeon, Barnabbas, Timothy, Mark etc...Shall we risk attributing to Satan the works of the Holy Spirit (as Jesus warned this is the unforgivable sin)?

I already told you my issues with Luke. Can you please show me where Simeon, Barnabbas, and Timothy testify anything to do with Paul? Seriously?

Can you show me also where Mark testifies anything about Paul?

Should we reject all of Luke's gospel? All of the book of Acts because Luke testifies to the apostleship of Paul as being oof the Holy Spirit? Shall we call them liars? If the Lord preserved His word, as He promised, then we should safely believe what we have. These words have all stood the test of time, tradition and torment.

I told you Luke was Paul's travelling companion and a journalist type. If Paul told him he was an apostle, Luke would write that down.

As an example, you say Paul debates the God of Israel by declaring the Law is unto death. It is unto death for all that have transgressed it. But for those that keep it perfectly it is unto life. Yet Paul is speaking with the understanding that none have perfectly kept the Law and so all are condemned to death under it. Paul ADMITS the Law was ordained unto life. He doesn't dispute that. What he does assert is that the actual outworking of it REVEALED that there was NONE who could stand under the sentence of the Law.

Paul says that he doesn't keep the Law, he considers it a curse, and he wants you to believe that it's ok for you serve sin too, because after all, you are made righteous by your faith.

Once we are baptised into Christ, we become a new creation. If we abide in Him we WILL love Him and keep His commandments. It isn't a matter of our will, but a matter of our perseverance in Him. Eternal life is NOT to keep the commandments. It is to know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

Very close. Knowing God (as much as humanly possible) is to know His commands

Exodus 20:6
"but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments."

John 10:27
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

What is Jesus' voice always saying, hmmmmmm . . .

John 14:21
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

John 14:23
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

Matthew 23:26
Blind Pharisees! First wash the inside of the cup, and then the outside will become clean, too.

notice Jesus doesn't say, "I'll wash the inside for you"

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

notice Jesus doesn't say, "I'll enter in the strait gate for you."

If you hear Jesus' voice and heed His warnings, then you are one of His sheep. The lost sheep of Isreal:

Matthew 15:24
"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

If you love Him (keep His commands) then He has purchased you with His blood:

Revelation 5:9
"And they sing a new song saying: You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for You were slain and have purchased for God, by your blood, men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

This is the unadulterated gospel

Faith won't hide anything, you who work iniquity, in the eyes of your Father in heaven.
Paul says your faith is counted as righteousness. Good luck with that guys, seriously.

Peace to you and your house in Yeshua,

Aaron

[Bob Hill]

In Matthew 15:24, Christ said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But when He died on the cross, we see that He paid the penalty for everyone who believes in Him as his savior.

Bob Hill

[nikolai_42]

apparently they didn't know they were naked before . . .

In other words, there had to be a law to declare to them the shame that comes with nakedness. Even though they were naked before, they weren't ashamed of it until the law showed them the truth. That's the purpose of the Law.



I already told you my issues with Luke. Can you please show me where Simeon, Barnabbas, and Timothy testify anything to do with Paul? Seriously?

Can you show me also where Mark testifies anything about Paul?

Luke declares this :

Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Acts 13:1-3

You may dispute this because it was done at Antioch, but if Luke testifies to this and it is false, we must toss out all of Acts as this was not dictated to him by Paul (and neither was at least the first several chapters). So, too, we must reject Barnabas as he is separated unto the work of God in the same breath as Paul. Likewise, Simeon (Niger), Lucius of Cyrene and Manaen (though as I don't believe we have any other words by them in the NT, this isn't an issue).

But Mark and Timothy were groomed under Paul. So we should be wary of anything of their testimony as well.

Another reason to be very careful about negating Paul's ministry is that the first thing after this separation, it is said again that Paul is full of the Holy Ghost and prophesied to a sorcerer. He prophesied his blindness which came upon him. And what happened as a result? The deputy believed. If you discount Paul's separation to the gospel, if you discount it as a work of the Holy Spirit, then you discount his prophecy and the sign wrough through him. You then risk attributing to Satan what is clearly stated to be of God. You judge individuals and thereby judge the words and teaching of Paul by the persons of Luke, Simeon, Lucius, and the Spirit at work to separate Paul AND Barnabas. Such judgment is incredibly dangerous.


I told you Luke was Paul's travelling companion and a journalist type. If Paul told him he was an apostle, Luke would write that down.


So it was Paul that said this, and NOT the Holy Spirit?

Paul says that he doesn't keep the Law, he considers it a curse, and he wants you to believe that it's ok for you serve sin too, because after all, you are made righteous by your faith.

You are placing words in Paul's mouth. Like many difficult and complex subjects, the work of the Law cannot be aptly summarized in a few words. Thus, a single thought cannot be used to characterize an entire teaching. You can't separate all these thoughts that Paul writes and use them individually. He, like a lawyer, builds up to a conclusion that requires you consider the whole and it all fits into place. That's why men who are unlearned or unstable wrest Paul's teaching to their destruction. They can't take the teachings of Paul as a whole - but instead take individual statements as characterising his entire thought! In any good speech or essay, there are several points - some minor, some major, some critical. The minor points support the major and the major points (in tandem with the minor points) support the critical points. You take a minor point out of context or isolate it and the entire argument can easily be twisted.


Very close. Knowing God (as much as humanly possible) is to know His commands


So...do the best you can and God will be pleased with that? Is that what you are saying?


Exodus 20:6
"but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments."

John 10:27
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

What is Jesus' voice always saying, hmmmmmm . . .

John 14:21
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

John 14:23
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

Matthew 23:26
Blind Pharisees! First wash the inside of the cup, and then the outside will become clean, too.

notice Jesus doesn't say, "I'll wash the inside for you"

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

notice Jesus doesn't say, "I'll enter in the strait gate for you."

If you hear Jesus' voice and heed His warnings, then you are one of His sheep. The lost sheep of Isreal:

Matthew 15:24
"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

If you love Him (keep His commands) then He has purchased you with His blood:


So...if you obey the Law, then Christ is made your salvation??!!!?? That poor man who had faith ... but not enough faith so that he had to ask the Lord to help his unbelief. You've got the cart before the horse. No man can come to Christ except he be drawn. No man can love Christ as needed until he is made a new creation. The requirements for salvation is to confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead. Then, the new life begins to work in you. Then the strait gate can be entered. With God, this is possible, with man, impossible.


Revelation 5:9
"And they sing a new song saying: You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for You were slain and have purchased for God, by your blood, men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

This is the unadulterated gospel


Faith won't hide anything, you who work iniquity, in the eyes of your Father in heaven.
Paul says your faith is counted as righteousness. Good luck with that guys, seriously.


As Paul said, there are many who will not enter the Kingdom - workers of iniquity being one. Fornicators, murderers etc.... Paul doesn't disagree.

Paul spoke of those that accuse him of excusing iniquity:

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Romans 3:7,8

He speaks in a short passage, of the judgment of the sinner, the damnation of sinners and the slanderous reporting that he excuses iniquity for a greater purpose. For support, read his entire letter to the Romans as a whole. Not as a collection of individual thoughts.



Peace to you and your house in Yeshua,

Aaron

One last thing. It is said that God doesn't justify the ungodly. It is said that Paul opposes this. Well...shall we throw out King David, or the Angel that stopped Balaam in his tracks?

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.
Numbers 23:19-21


And...

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
Psalm 66:18

Seems David was harder on himself than God was on Israel and Jacob. Is David more righteous than God?

[RhodaRose]

In Matthew 15:24, Christ said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Bob Hill

I was surfing through your forum and found this:

http://biblicalanswers.com/biblicalanswers_bible_forums_frameset.htm
Bible Study, Old Testament/Hebrew, Isaiah 19:14

Isaiah 19:14 describes the plight of Egypt/Israel as a result of the foolishness of its leadership. Because of the foolishness of these men (ironically renowned for their wisdom, v.12), Egypt/Israel staggers like a drunken man slipping on his own vomit. Our verse attributes this state to HaShem's influence. It is the God of Israel who has 'mixed' this foolish counsel into Egypt's/Israel's leadership as an act of judgment on that nation's wickedness. We see other examples in Scripture of God influencing the wicked to make self-destructive choices (see, e.g., 2 Samuel 17:1-14).

As I believe in "shadows" of things to come what you say here could easily pertain to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” and to Paul who was sent after their rejection of their Messiah.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Zechariah 11:15-16 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.

[Messenger]

Luke declares this :

Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Acts 13:1-3

Paul has twisted the teachings of Jesus in so many places, that I have no choice but to think that Paul told Luke that the Holy Spirit was upon himself, Barnabas and others.

You may dispute this because it was done at Antioch, but if Luke testifies to this and it is false, we must toss out all of Acts as this was not dictated to him by Paul (and neither was at least the first several chapters). So, too, we must reject Barnabas as he is separated unto the work of God in the same breath as Paul. Likewise, Simeon (Niger), Lucius of Cyrene and Manaen (though as I don't believe we have any other words by them in the NT, this isn't an issue).

I'm not saying Luke is an intentional liar. I'm saying he was Paul's buddy, who was a journalist type. He was like Paul's personal publiscist. You don't have to toss out Acts. Just read it knowing that Paul's personal publiscist wrote it and he also has a gospel in our bible even though he was not one of the 12 chosen by Jesus. We got our bibles from Europe remember, and this is where Paul and Luke did their ministry.
Things to consider.

But Mark and Timothy were groomed under Paul. So we should be wary of anything of their testimony as well.

Please show me where their testamony is.

Another reason to be very careful about negating Paul's ministry is that the first thing after this separation, it is said again that Paul is full of the Holy Ghost and prophesied to a sorcerer. He prophesied his blindness which came upon him. And what happened as a result? The deputy believed. If you discount Paul's separation to the gospel, if you discount it as a work of the Holy Spirit, then you discount his prophecy and the sign wrough through him. You then risk attributing to Satan what is clearly stated to be of God. You judge individuals and thereby judge the words and teaching of Paul by the persons of Luke, Simeon, Lucius, and the Spirit at work to separate Paul AND Barnabas. Such judgment is incredibly dangerous.

Yeah, Jesus came so that people might see, not become blind. And serpent scales? SERPENT SCALES? Do you need some more clues?

Jesus also said people would be deceived:

Matthew 24:24
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Matthew 24:26
"Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not"

So it was Paul that said this, and NOT the Holy Spirit?

Guess so. Or how about this: An Unholy Spirit


You are placing words in Paul's mouth. Like many difficult and complex subjects, the work of the Law cannot be aptly summarized in a few words. Thus, a single thought cannot be used to characterize an entire teaching. You can't separate all these thoughts that Paul writes and use them individually. He, like a lawyer, builds up to a conclusion that requires you consider the whole and it all fits into place. That's why men who are unlearned or unstable wrest Paul's teaching to their destruction. They can't take the teachings of Paul as a whole - but instead take individual statements as characterising his entire thought! In any good speech or essay, there are several points - some minor, some major, some critical. The minor points support the major and the major points (in tandem with the minor points) support the critical points. You take a minor point out of context or isolate it and the entire argument can easily be twisted.

We know that Paul served a "law of sin". His flesh was "sold to sin". He says that the way to do things is to serve God with your mind and serve sin with your flesh. Really this means a lack of self control. I'm not putting words in his mouth. If you want to keep defending this guy, then really, you are going against your own Messiah.


So...do the best you can and God will be pleased with that? Is that what you are saying?


Well, not if the best you can do is serve sin. But if the best you can do is keep His commands and walk blameless, then YES!!!! That's what this verse says:

John 14:21
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."



So...if you obey the Law, then Christ is made your salvation??!!!?? That poor man who had faith ... but not enough faith so that he had to ask the Lord to help his unbelief.

Please reference this, I don't recall this story.

You've got the cart before the horse. No man can come to Christ except he be drawn. No man can love Christ as needed until he is made a new creation. The requirements for salvation is to confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead. Then, the new life begins to work in you. Then the strait gate can be entered. With God, this is possible, with man, impossible.

You've got a different cart that Paul sold you.


As Paul said, there are many who will not enter the Kingdom - workers of iniquity being one. Fornicators, murderers etc.... Paul doesn't disagree.

People like to point out where Paul does agree with God and Jesus, and they like to ignore the gross discrepencies between the doctrines. Paul's writings are chalk full of truth followed by lies followed by truth followed by lies again.

Paul spoke of those that accuse him of excusing iniquity:

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Romans 3:7,8

Look! Paul admits he is lying.

He speaks in a short passage, of the judgment of the sinner, the damnation of sinners and the slanderous reporting that he excuses iniquity for a greater purpose. For support, read his entire letter to the Romans as a whole. Not as a collection of individual thoughts.

Yeah, I'll do that if I want to convince myself that Paul isn't grossly twisting the doctrine of our Messiah.


One last thing. It is said that God doesn't justify the ungodly. It is said that Paul opposes this. Well...shall we throw out King David, or the Angel that stopped Balaam in his tracks?

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.
Numbers 23:19-21


And...

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
Psalm 66:18

Seems David was harder on himself than God was on Israel and Jacob. Is David more righteous than God?

David experienced true grace where his Father in heaven left him alive long enough to repent. TRUE GRACE. Not ungodly made righteousness by faith garbage.

Everyone on this forum knows that David is not more righteous than God.

Peace,

Aaron

[RayOfLight]

Aaron,
Check out this, it's about 2 Peter. It should be somewhat helpful.
www.frontline-apologetics.com/2_Peter.htm

[nikolai_42]

Messenger,

Before I answer your latest post, tell me why in the world you follow Christ? Does He save or does the Law save? Where is man's hope ever placed (after Christ) in the Law for salvation? What did Christ fulfill if He came only to strengthen the Law?

One small point here, as well. I believe you (or another who believes as you) assert that Paul's assertion that the Law is summarized in "Love your neighbour as yourself" is a denial of Christ (inasmuch as in at least one place, Christ declares it to be "Love the Lord your God...and...Love your neighbour as yourself."). Yet even Jesus Himself takes the liberty of distilling it all down to simply "Do unto others..." (Matt 7:12). Shall we reject Him because He does not assert as you desire?

Again...are you not exalting your own preconceptions and ideas over and above the spirit of the word?

[nikolai_42]

Paul has twisted the teachings of Jesus in so many places, that I have no choice but to think that Paul told Luke that the Holy Spirit was upon himself, Barnabas and others.

I'm not saying Luke is an intentional liar. I'm saying he was Paul's buddy, who was a journalist type. He was like Paul's personal publiscist. You don't have to toss out Acts. Just read it knowing that Paul's personal publiscist wrote it and he also has a gospel in our bible even though he was not one of the 12 chosen by Jesus. We got our bibles from Europe remember, and this is where Paul and Luke did their ministry.
Things to consider.

Do you not see that you are picking and choosing your rejections? Luke walked with Christ! Luke was an eyewitness to Him and heard His teachings! Yet you continue to assert that Paul was knowingly, deviously and scripturally wrong and was able to dupe one of Jesus' followers (and biographers)! You have no choice to reject Paul because it seems you want to continue to assume the righteousness of the Law is your salvation when it is clear that none will be saved in that way. Obedience is essential, yes! But the righteousness of the Law is self-righteousness because it is done in one's own strength. The Law has not passed away, but the ordinances in stone have. It is still not right to lie, cheat, steal, fornicate or murder, but we are not under an external mandate but changed by an internal one. This is what Paul was speaking.


Please show me where their testamony is.


The entire book of Mark is suspect now, because Mark (another follower and biographer of Jesus Christ) has also been duped by the "deceiver", Paul. Another one who walked with Jesus who is able to commit himself to one who he, supposedly, should reject as being against the One he knows better than Paul.

Granted, Timothy was not recorded directly in scripture as writing, but inasmuch as he was considered, by Paul, to be his spiritual son, then Timothy's work is tainted and all his missionary work should be tossed out. Yet more of the apostolic work is false. It seems that the first churches are more populated by falsehood than truth - if Paul is truly false. Were BarJesus and Elymas really true prophets? After all, the scripture says plainly that Paul prophesied against them by the Holy Spirit. I imagine you will have to use your assumption that Luke was a poor, ignorant dupe. Again...an assumption.


Yeah, Jesus came so that people might see, not become blind. And serpent scales? SERPENT SCALES? Do you need some more clues
[quote]

Jesus said he would be lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness. Like the one upon whom sinful Israel would have to look upon to be healed of their deadly snake bites. Does that mean Jesus was a serpent? No. But Jesus still takes this metaphor to Himself. Not Satan. Even so...if you are referring to what fell from Paul's eyes when he was with Ananias, then the scales could even represent the lies of Satan. Or is there some other allusion I'm missing? Just notice that the serpent does not necessitate Satan as a meaning.

[quote]
Jesus also said people would be deceived:

Matthew 24:24
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Matthew 24:26
"Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not"


Yes. And Mohammed fits that very well. Far better than Paul. And if you are referring to the vision, Jesus is talking about His COMING, not an appearing. We ought to discount John's Apocalypse as well, if that is about any vision of Christ or any appearing of Christ.


Guess so. Or how about this: An Unholy Spirit


A dangerous accusation based on your own assumptions, hasty conclusions and ideas injected into the text


We know that Paul served a "law of sin". His flesh was "sold to sin". He says that the way to do things is to serve God with your mind and serve sin with your flesh. Really this means a lack of self control. I'm not putting words in his mouth. If you want to keep defending this guy, then really, you are going against your own Messiah.


This is one of those passages you are taking out of context. Paul says, not 8 verses later, that they which are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD. One who goes about to fulfill the Law on their own CANNOT PLEASE GOD because they are doing so in their own strength and, whether they realize it or not, are setting out to establish their own righteousness. Not their own law, but their own righteousness. You don't give a "good citizen" award to the politician that drafts a law - you give it to the one who perfectly exemplifies the law-abiding resident. It is to their glory, just as it would be to our glory if we could keep the law. But we cannot. There are NONE righteous. Our thoughts and ways ARE NOT God's ways. There is no equivocation here, it is absolutely clear, man cannot please God unless directed by the Spirit of God.


Well, not if the best you can do is serve sin. But if the best you can do is keep His commands and walk blameless, then YES!!!! That's what this verse says:

John 14:21
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."


Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and formerly, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that showeth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.
Isaiah 41:26

Even Jesus did not go about to establish a righteousness in the flesh.

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
....
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me
John 5:19

If Jesus is to be our elder brother, we must be as He was. If He would do nothing in the flesh save that which the Spirit quickened, we must be likewise. If the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwell in you...

Unless a man is born again, he cannot please God. And if he is born again, he will not walk in the flesh. Paul does not say that he walks in the flesh, but that his flesh (just like yours and mine) only serves the law of sin.

If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 8:39


Please reference this, I don't recall this story.


Matt 9:17-29 - esp v. 24. Apparently Christ provided what the man lacked - in faith. And notice what He said - all things are possible to him that believes (v. 23). Not that works are useless (prayer and fasting was needed for this casting out), but that the ground of pleasing God is faith - not the Law. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD. Which agrees with Paul in Romans 3 - that man is not justified by the deeds of the law. Verse 19 states that the Law is perfect and thus convicts EVERY man - thus its inability to save. But the faith of Jesus Christ has been manifested such that man may know what the Law could not illuminate. All have sinned (convicted by the Law) and so there is nothing man can do to make himself right with God. To attempt to do so is to deny Christ who brought in the free redemption by grace. That redemption serves to show God's mercy and to acknowledge the Law's success in convicting EVERYONE. The Law can do nothing else. This is not excusing disobedience, but to establish that the Law could never make a man righteous - BECAUSE THAT WAS NEVER ITS PURPOSE. It could never change a man's heart, only mold his actions. So man can never be justified by IT, only by the obedience of faith.

Yes, obedience. But not to an external law. It must be only by the Spirit of Truth. So, when reading Romans 4:5, do not think that God is putting His seal of approval on ungodliNESS, only that He has rendered all men, by the Law, without any righteousness or ability to be righteous in themselves. If God did not justify the ungodly, there would be none justified. So, as Paul goes on in the next verses, it becomes even more clear that this is what he means. Blessed is the man whose iniquity is forgiven, whose sins are covered. He does not ignore the fact that a man is ungodly. The Law continually tries to make a man godly by actions but that ignores the heart. Paul acknowledges this and the futility of going about to justify by the Law - by a man's actions. A man is justified by Christ. Good works will RESULT (as Paul said, we are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith and UNTO good works). This James agrees with. Faith and works must go hand in hand. But works do not precede faith. Abraham's children do not come before Abraham. Abraham's faith had to precede his obedience. And it wasn't by the Law.


You've got a different cart that Paul sold you.


Faith, THEN works. Show me where the reverse is commanded? Jesus' statement to the father of the child with the dumb spirit ("...help thou my unbelief...") is just another illustration of that.


People like to point out where Paul does agree with God and Jesus, and they like to ignore the gross discrepencies between the doctrines. Paul's writings are chalk full of truth followed by lies followed by truth followed by lies again.


Assertions...very little proof.


Look! Paul admits he is lying.


This is one of those places where you have so destroyed the context of the verse that it is easy to see that you have an irrational prejudice against Paul (or maybe a desire to hold on to Judaism and righteousness BY the works of the Law?). I will quote the passage more broadly to show this :


Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 3:1-9

Can you not see the plainness of Paul's applying an hypothetical (not his own) argument? He is speaking as one who would question the righteousness of God in judging sinners in sight of the fact that the sin of man exalts the glory of God. It is not Paul's own argument, but one he is REFUTING (!). That's why he adds (PARENTHETICALLY!) in verse 8 that the report is slanderous that Paul in any way permits, encourages or ignores sin simply to let the grace of God abound. Paul's "MY LIE" is simply a reference to the liar (as quoted by that liar) of Romans 3:4. It is not Paul's lie, it is the liar's lie that accuses God of unrighteousness for judging sinners. The Jews Paul was mimicking had lived under the law for so long, but had missed Christ (John 5:37-40) because they still insisted on asserting their own righteousness (see, for example, Luke 18:10-14). Instead, he is saying that God will judge sinners because ALL are (and will continue to be, unless walking in the faith of Jesus Christ) lawbreakers. Unable to keep the Law. That's why the author of Hebrews speaks of Christ as a BETTER way. A new and living way.


Yeah, I'll do that if I want to convince myself that Paul isn't grossly twisting the doctrine of our Messiah.


So you admit you don't want to read the entire book as a whole because you don't want to be convinced of Paul's agreement with Christ? Your words, not mine.


David experienced true grace where his Father in heaven left him alive long enough to repent. TRUE GRACE. Not ungodly made righteousness by faith garbage.

Everyone on this forum knows that David is not more righteous than God.


And so it is that God justified ungodly Israel. Not because of their repentance, but for His name's sake. Just like Paul says of those that walk in the faith of Jesus Christ. So also says the author of Hebrews ("Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.")

[nikolai_42]

Bump

[RhodaRose]

Nikolai says:
Luke walked with Christ! Luke was an eyewitness to Him and heard His teachings! Yet you continue to assert that Paul was knowingly, deviously and scripturally wrong and was able to dupe one of Jesus' followers (and biographers)!

Luke says of himself:
Luke 1:1-3 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus

Luke says the eyewitnesses delivered unto him...and the part "having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first" is questionable but I do believe Luke thought he did...

[RhodaRose]

Nikolai says:
"The entire book of Mark is suspect now, because Mark (another follower and biographer of Jesus Christ) has also been duped by the "deceiver", Paul. Another one who walked with Jesus who is able to commit himself to one who he, supposedly, should reject as being against the One he knows better than Paul.

Mark left Paul shortly after he saw Paul put blindness on a person and never was asked to return by Paul until he ask Timothy to bring Mark because he would be helpful in his ministry. It never does say if Mark came with Timonthy to Paul...

Actually Mark was discipled by Peter

[RhodaRose]

Before I begin what I want to say I need to establish a few thing. I am going to assume your knowledge of the Bible but if you have a problem with this I will post the verses.

In Mark it is establish that "I see men walking as trees" seems to indicate tree represent man.

The "sword" that is spoken of represents the Word of God.

Double-edged sword that "cuts both ways" Truth and fiction combined.

Wheat and chaff in the parable is not persons but Words and words. The words, chaff will be removed leaving only the wheat, Truth.

Genesis 3:22-24 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

This sword is to keep us from the Tree (Man) of Life.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

2 Peter 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the "Lord" (this is a generic word that can speak of good or evil) that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

God created good and evil. He uses the evil for His own purposes to accompish His Will and Work.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Remember Pharaoh and how he was used to work God's purpose...God harded his heart...

There is so much more to this but if you can't see this then you will only get confused with more.

[Bob Hill]

nikolai_42,

Thank you for your outstanding post at #118. You saved me a lot of time refuting Messenger's anti-scriptural statements.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Messenger,

What is your reason for discriminating against the Apostle Paul and basically calling Him a liar?

Where are you coming from in regards to the Bible?

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

I believe the whole Bible is God's Word. The ancient evidence that we have found overwhelmingingly shows how accurate the Bible is.

Bob Hill

[nikolai_42]

Before I begin what I want to say I need to establish a few thing. I am going to assume your knowledge of the Bible but if you have a problem with this I will post the verses.

In Mark it is establish that "I see men walking as trees" seems to indicate tree represent man.

The "sword" that is spoken of represents the Word of God.

Double-edged sword that "cuts both ways" Truth and fiction combined.

Wheat and chaff in the parable is not persons but Words and words. The words, chaff will be removed leaving only the wheat, Truth.

Genesis 3:22-24 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

This sword is to keep us from the Tree (Man) of Life.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

2 Peter 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the "Lord" (this is a generic word that can speak of good or evil) that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

God created good and evil. He uses the evil for His own purposes to accompish His Will and Work.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Remember Pharaoh and how he was used to work God's purpose...God harded his heart...

There is so much more to this but if you can't see this then you will only get confused with more.


If, as you seem to believe, Paul is a false apostle but used of God, and God doesn't take any great pains to expose Paul directly, why fight what Paul says even if some of what he says is flat out wrong (something I don't necessarily agree with)? In so doing, aren't you fighting God Himself (so seems to be a logical extension of your quoted post above)? There is an example in scripture that explicitly and implicitly covers that thought :

And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
Acts 5:38-41

The pharisee in question stood up and spoke this being one against Christ in heart (as it was apparent in his beating of the apostles and silence in response to the injunction against preaching Christ). Yet what he said was ultimately true. The persecuted rejoiced that they were counted worthy to suffer for Christ and Gamaliel was happy with them being beaten and released. Their hypocrisy glorified God (something Paul points out will result in God's glory AND their judgment). So why not leave Paul alone? By persisting, aren't you "beating" those that believe Paul is preaching Christ? And if God ultimately works glory for Himself and good for those that trust Him - including those that would believe Paul - don't you risk a judgment that those that trust and learn do not risk? Defend or correct doctrine, but to reject Paul himself (which is the spirit of the thread) is not only against the message of the above passage of scripture and against Christ's ministry (He did not break a bruised reed or quench a smoldering flax), but it rejects Paul himself who says "Who is Paul? Who is Apollos?" They are ministers. Filter out what is right and wrong (and I believe Paul to be right nearly always), but do not judge Paul. That is dangerous.

[RhodaRose]

Paul is a false apostle but used of God

Deuteronomy 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Zechariah 11:15-16 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land...

God doesn't take any great pains to expose Paul directly

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I understand what you are saying...some of what Paul says is Truth and some isn't. You want me to just pick what he says that is incorrect and leave the rest alone...Like "don't throw the baby out with the bath water". This would be a hard task and unnecessary if we would listen to Jesus only we would have the Truth.

Even Paul says:
1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Now that is one of his Truths...

[RhodaRose]

Before I begin what I want to say I need to establish a few thing. I am going to assume your knowledge of the Bible but if you have a problem with this I will post the verses.

In Mark it is establish that "I see men walking as trees" seems to indicate tree represent man.

The "sword" that is spoken of represents the Word of God.

Double-edged sword that "cuts both ways" Truth and fiction combined.

Wheat and chaff in the parable is not persons but Words and words. The words, chaff will be removed leaving only the wheat, Truth.

Genesis 3:22-24 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

This sword is to keep us from the Tree (Man) of Life.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

2 Peter 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the "Lord" (this is a generic word that can speak of good or evil) that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

God created good and evil. He uses the evil for His own purposes to accompish His Will and Work.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Remember Pharaoh and how he was used to work God's purpose...God harded his heart...

There is so much more to this but if you can't see this then you will only get confused with more.

"For the Word of God is quick and powerful, (sharper than any two-edged sword), piercing even to the division of the soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart - Hebrews 4:12

[Bob Hill]

We have no evidence that Paul was a false apostle. Everything in the Acts and his epistles show that he was called by God.

When we look at the following two passages, we could call Paul a messenger of Jesus Christ, but the term came to mean “to designate one esp. commissioned.” Since Epaphroditus was sent by the Philippians with a mission to see Paul, Epaphroditus was their apostle. However, Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. There were only a few of these, and Paul was the only apostle that God designated as His apostle for this Dispensation of Grace. That’s why it said that he was “called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God.
Phi 2:25 Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, but your messenger and the one who ministered to my need.

I edited this dictionary item from Bauer, Gingrich, Danker, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979.
apostolos - In isolated cases it means ambassador, delegate, messenger, apostoloi - of ordinary messengers.
1. In the NT, apostolos can also mean delegate, envoy, messenger . . . J 13:16. Of Epaphroditus, messenger of the Philippians Phil 2:25.—2 Co 8:23, perhaps, missionary.
2. Especially of God’s messengers, the prophets Lk 11:49; Rev 18:20; cf. 2:2; Eph 3:5. Even of Christ, Heb 3:1.
3. But our lit. uses apostolos predominately for the apostles, a group of highly honored believers, who had a special function. Even Judaism had an office known as apostle (shaliach). From it the expression may have been borrowed to designate one especially commissioned. At first it denoted one who proclaimed the gospel, and was not strictly limited: Paul freq. calls himself an apostolos: Ro 1:1; 11:13; 1 Co 1:1; 9:1f; 15:9; 2 Co 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1, 11; Tit 1:1. Of Barnabas Ac 14:14. Of James, the Lord’s brother Gal 1:19. Of Peter 1 Pt 1:1; 2 Pt 1:1. Then esp. of the 12 apostles. Mt 10:2; Mk 3:14; Lk 22:14; cf. 6:13; 9:10; 17:5; Ac 1:26. Peter and the apostles Ac 5:29. Paul and the apostles 1 Co 4:9; 9:5; 15:7; 2 Co 11:13; 1 Th 2:7; Ac 1:2; 2:42f; 4:33, 35, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 2 Pt 3:2; Jude 17. As possessors of the most important spiritual gift 1 Co 12:28f. Working miracles 2 Co 12:12.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Peter, James and John were given a gospel different from the one that the ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave to Paul. Paul had written in Gal 1:11-17 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

In contrast to the good news that Christ gave Paul, Peter & James wrote and showed in their epistles that God inspired them to write that they had to endure in their faith to be saved. This gospel faded away after the transition period when all of the apostles had died.

For instance, instead of the security that Christ gave to Paul for us today, we see that God inspired Peter to write this in 2 Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Also, God inspired James to write a message similar to Peters in James 2:20-26 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The resurrected and ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave Paul a different gospel that had not been heard of before. Paul in Acts and his epistles had a different gospel. In that gospel of grace, we have security because we are sealed and cannot lose our salvation is if we truly trust Christ as our savior. That’s why Paul and Silas responded to the jailor in this way. Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Later, Paul showed to the Jerusalem Council the message that Christ gave to him.
Gal 2:1-5,7-9 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcision also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

Rom 5:6-9 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, [b]Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

After a person believes in the present dispensation of grace, he is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the rapture. Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles - 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets[/ b] (by Paul) 6 [b]that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8,8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption.

The thing we must do today is make sure people understand the new message of grace that God gave to Paul for our Dispensation of Grace. We must divide God’s word according to the dispensation that we are in, the Dispensation of Grace. 2 Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Today, the gospel for the body of Christ is the one God the Son gave to Paul. All Scripture is profitable for us, but all Scripture was not written to us. Much of it was written to the Circumcision.

Safe in Christ,
Bob Hill

[RhodaRose]

The thing we must do today is make sure people understand the new message of grace that God gave to Paul for our Dispensation of Grace. We must divide God’s word according to the dispensation that we are in, the Dispensation of Grace. 2 Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and Truth.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.

Grace and Truth came long before Paul came on the scene

Today, the gospel for the body of Christ is the one God the Son gave to Paul. All Scripture is profitable for us, but all Scripture was not written to us. Much of it was written to the Circumcision

God, the Father, is not the Son...check out families in the flesh which is our example...

So...we can ignore the Words that God, the Father, gave Jesus and just read and study Paul's epistles and we will be save by grace, right?

Foolish of Jesus to teach His disciples for 3 1/2 years if He was just going to zap Paul with the real message for the Gentiles...

Jeremiah 16:19-20 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

King Saul of the OT was the shadow of Saul/Paul of the NT. King Saul was annointed but was very unstable in his ways and dealings with David. I personally think he was BiPolar (manic/depressive) or maybe he had that same "thorn", the messanger of satan...

[Bob Hill]

Paul was not a false apostle.

We must always remember a Jewish principle. 1 Co 1:22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom. In spite of all the signs God gave them, Israel rejected God and was set aside. I believe this happened in Acts 7.

Please read Acts 7:51-56 You stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it. 54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!

God set Israel aside (Rom 11:11,25; Acts 28:28) in Acts 7 when Christ stood in judgment (Isa 3:13) at the stoning of Stephen. Part of Paul’s ministry had been to show Israel that they had been set aside. This is why the Corinthian church spoke in tongues. One wall of their meeting place was contiguous with the Jewish synagogue. They spoke in tongues in judgment upon the unbelieving Jews next door in fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 28 (1 Co 14:21,22). In Acts 28:28, God used Paul to pronounce to the Jews in Rome that Israel had been set aside. After this, the baptisms imposed on Israel, being fleshly ordinances (Heb 9:10-13), were set aside until God would resume dealing with Israel in the tribulation.

We see that Christ was standing in judgment here, because that was the custom when a judge judged. here are some passages to read which show God stands when He judges: Psalm 7:6-11 Arise, O LORD, in Your anger; Lift Yourself up because of the rage of my enemies; Rise up for me to the judgment You have commanded! 7 So the congregation of the peoples shall surround You; For their sakes, therefore, return on high. 8 The LORD shall judge the peoples; Judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, And according to my integrity within me. 9 Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds. 10 My defense is of God, Who saves the upright in heart. 11 God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Psalm 9:16-20 The LORD is known by the judgment He executes; The wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. 18 For the needy shall not always be forgotten; The expectation of the poor shall not perish forever. 19 Arise, O LORD, Do not let man prevail; Let the nations be judged in Your sight. 20 Put them in fear, O LORD, That the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah

Psalm 82:1-8 God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods. 2 How long will you judge unjustly, and show partiality to the wicked? Selah 3 Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy; Free them from the hand of the wicked. 5 They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable. 6 I said, “You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High. 7 But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.” 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You shall inherit all nations.
Isaiah 3:13 The LORD stands up to plead, and stands to judge the people.

Remember, Paul was inspired by God to write about this setting aside of Israel in Rom 11:11,15,25 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Because of Israel’s fall, Paul became the apostle of the Gentiles with a new gospel. Acts 26:16-18 tells us about his commission. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Gal 2:7 tells us about his gospel: “But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter.” Now, when Israel rejected God, He stood and judged the nation of Israel.

This is where the judgment of tongues is relevant. In 1 Co 14:20, Paul referred to the Isaiah 28 prophecy, because the leaders of Israel were, again like babes in understanding. 1 Co 14:20-22 “Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. 21 In the law it is written: “With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord. 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.” The Isaiah 28 passage was a warning of judgment. Then, according to 1 Co 14:22, these tongues were for a sign, to whom? 22 “Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

These tongues were for a sign, to Israel! And, what was the purpose? Judgment! Then, when God set Israel aside, He made a final official decree of judgment against Israel in Acts 28:28, through the Apostle Paul showing that they had been set aside. Since the use for tongues was now over, God inspired Paul to write in 1 Co 13:8, Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Therefore, Israel was set aside in Acts 7. Part of Paul’s commission was to show Israel they had been set aside as God’s favored nation. Now, a Jew and a Gentile were on the same level outside of Christ – they were all sinners, going to hell. Now, there was a new church, the body of Christ. There is no discrimination in the body of Christ. We are all one in Christ.

Safe and sealed in the body of Christ,

Bob

[RhodaRose]

Are these verses speaking of Paul?

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

[Bob Hill]

RhodaRose

Israel was supposed to go into all the world with the message that God gave them. They did not do that so God set them aside for the time being and raised up the Apostle Paul with a new gospel. God then sent him to the Gentiles, kings, and Israel.

The new gospel was given to Paul, and it was different from the one He had given Israel.

Bob Hill

[Cliffracer RIP]

It's funny that the Nazi 'Christians' rejected Paul and called for his removal from the bible.

[Bob Hill]

Cliffracer RIP,

Were the "Nazi 'Christians' really Christians?

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

It sounds like they weren't.

[Messenger]

1COR 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

NB Apollos is the same name as Apollyon ... the destroyer!
from http://philologos.org/bpr/files/a009.htm
APOLLYON. The Greek name, meaning "Destroyer," given in Revelation 9:11 for "the angel of the bottomless pit" (in Hebrew called Abaddon), also identified as the king of the demonic "locusts" described in Revelation 9:3-10...In one manuscript, instead of Apollyon the text reads "Apollo," the Greek god of death and pestilence as well as of the sun, music, poetry, crops and herds, and medicine. Apollyon is no doubt the correct reading. But the name Apollo (Gk Apollon) was often linked in ancient Greek writings with the verb apollymi or apollyo, "destroy." From this time of Grotius, "Apollyon" has often been taken here to be a play on the name Apollo. The locust was an emblem of this god, who poisoned his victims, and the name "Apollyon" may be used allusively in Revelation to attack the pagan god and so indirectly the Roman emperor Domitian, who liked to be regarded as Apollo incarnate.
(Anchor Bible Dictionary)

Yeshua sowed the good seed ... what did Paul plant?
MT 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

[ChristianMarxst]

Paul never claimed to be demon posessed. He only claimed to have been tormented by a demon. Two different things, buddy. Demons torment people all of the time. That's kinda their job.

ChristianMarxist

[Sharri]

Mike,


Do you read the entire chapter of what your reading or do you take certain verses?

II Cor 12: 7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

II Cor 12: 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.



Peace in Christ
Sharri

[Bob Hill]

Paul did preach a gospel different from Peter's. But that was because God gave him that new gospel when he was in the desert for about 3 years.

That gospel is not works oriented like the gospel given to Peter and John.

According to that gospel, i am saved by believing that Christ died for my sins. He did, and I am saved and sure I am going to heaven.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Messenger]

Paul did preach a gospel different from Peter's. But that was because God gave him that new gospel when he was in the desert for about 3 years.

That gospel is not works oriented like the gospel given to Peter and John.

According to that gospel, i am saved by believing that Christ died for my sins. He did, and I am saved and sure I am going to heaven.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Bob, believing needs to be followed by 'doing'. We can be "bought with His blood" (revelation) and "by His bruises healed" (Isaiah) but only if we turn from sin and serve only one master. There is a certain amount of effort required to make us worthy. "Watch therefore and pray that you will be accounted worthy" God knows your heart and knows if you are worthy

The "apostle paul", however teaches that one will inevitably serve a "second law of sin" (romans 7). Pardon my French, but that is complete BS straight from the mouth of satan.
Setting people up to relent to temptation because "paul" said they would is the work of the devil. Anyone who says it isn't is in league with their father the devil. Plain and simple. All who serve a second master, or "law of sin" will be bound and caste into outer darkness. plain and simple

Leave it up to satan to invent a second "gospel of grace" that doesn't involve turning from sin, but instead "serving a second law of sin"

Peace to you and your house in Yeshua,

Aaron

[Bob Hill]

Messenger,

Since you are a Messianic Jew, I understand where you are coming from. I am a Christian. I have been persuaded to see Rom 7:9 differently than you: “I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.” Paul was preaching the age of accountability and sinning. Before Paul reached that age he was alive without the law. But, when he became of age, the law slew him.

Rom 5:18 shows us that all who die in the first Adam were made alive in Christ. In fact, that’s why there is a recognized parenthesis in all the major translations that starts with Rom 5:13 and ends with Rom 5:17. Greek syntax demands it. Therefore, we should take out the verses in between Rom 5:12 & 18 to see what really happened.

Rom 5:12&18 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned - 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

We can see that the same group who sinned in Adam in verse 12 were also justified through one Man’s, Christ’s, righteous act in verse 18. We can also see that Adam’s sin was imputed to all just as Christ’s death removed that sin. So, the ones who sinned in Adam had nothing to do with the sinning. Just because they were seminally in Adam, they took part of Adam’s sin and death. Further, they had nothing to do with the free gift that came to them all resulting in justification.

It was Christ’s righteous act for Adam’s sin that resulted in the justification for Adam’s sin. Therefore, we can confidently say there was universal justification for all who sinned in Adam. So, the universal justification is for the sin of Adam. The whole world is justified for Adam’s sin. We still suffer the act of dying physically since that seems to be a genetic change that took part when Adam sinned. We also inherit that thing called flesh, which is always contrary to God’s will.

We are responsible for our own sins. There is no universal justification for the sins of those who do not receive the “abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness” of “the One, Jesus Christ.”

In 1 Co 15:22, it shows us that all were in Adam. Because of that, all died. It is a different story with Christ. All are not in Christ. Romans 6 shows us that those who receive Christ are the ones who die to sin. Only those who have trusted in Christ are in Christ. That’s why it says in 1 Co 15:22, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” All of us were in Adam. Only those who believe are in Christ. There is no universal vivification here.

The same goes for universal reconciliation. God wanted Christ to have the preeminence in everything. He was the firstborn of all creation in Col 1:15. In Col 1:18, it says, “He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.” And for us, His Church, He was the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Messenger]

It was Christ’s righteous act for Adam’s sin that resulted in the justification for Adam’s sin. Therefore, we can confidently say there was universal justification for all who sinned in Adam. So, the universal justification is for the sin of Adam. The whole world is justified for Adam’s sin. We still suffer the act of dying physically since that seems to be a genetic change that took part when Adam sinned. We also inherit that thing called flesh, which is always contrary to God’s will.

We are responsible for our own sins. There is no universal justification for the sins of those who do not receive the “abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness” of “the One, Jesus Christ.”


Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.


Paul says none are righteous

Isaiah 5:23
Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

I don't claim to be perfect, but you gotta try to be righteous

Job 9:20
If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

Only Yahweh can justify you or I, but we gotta try. Don't say "none are righteous" because there are, and have been, men who are righteous.

Peace in Yeshua,

Aaron

[Bob Hill]

Aaron,

None are righteous according to God's Word.

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “The poison of asps is under their lips”; 14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Bob Hill

[sentientsynth]

I don't claim to be perfect, but you gotta try to be righteous

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

[Messenger]

My bible says that he was quoting from Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53:1-3 which are basically identical passages. Let’s see what it says:

Psalm 14:1-3

1. Fools say to themselves, “There is no God!”
They are all corrupt, and they have done terrible things;
There is no one who does what is right.

2. The LORD looks down from heaven at mankind to see if there are any
who are wise, any who worship him.

3. But they have all gone wrong; they are all equally bad.
Not one of them does what is right, not a single one.


Wow. It looks as though Paul has twisted the Psalms to imply that everyone is like that; not just the fools. If I keep reading what does Psalm 14:4 say?

4. “Don’t they know?” asks the LORD. “Are all these evildoers
ignorant? They live by robbing my people and they never pray to me.”

From this you can deduce that "The LORD's people" are a separate entity.

[Daniel50]

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein
have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

[Bob Hill]

Instead of being a false apostle, Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. He went to Israel as well as the Gentiles, but his special mission was to the Gentiles.

Bob Hill

[Messenger]

Messenger,

Before I answer your latest post, tell me why in the world you follow Christ? Does He save or does the Law save? Where is man's hope ever placed (after Christ) in the Law for salvation? What did Christ fulfill if He came only to strengthen the Law?




YES YES YES!!!! They are one and the same. The Word is the Law. And guess who the Word is? All He ever taught was The Law . . . look it up
(talking about inside the cup laws here . . . which the 10 commands are and can be boiled down to two)

The Law is required for salvation. I'm not trying to ignore Jesus. I'm just trying to bring to light what He said and taught which is quite contrary to Paul.

And in doing so, prove that anyone (Paul) who says the Law is powerless to save is a LIAR

Peace in Messiah,

Aaron

[Bob Hill]

In Rom 6:3-23, we see what saves us. We believe. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ, and we can't lose it.

Rom 6:3-23 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

All we have to do is believe.

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Do you believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior?

If not, do it now.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Messenger]

In Rom 6:3-23, we see what saves us. We believe. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ, and we can't lose it.


(To the church of Ephesis)

Rev 2

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place except thou repent.

******************** So, we can "lose it." ************************************************** *




Rom 6:3-23 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

OK, hear we can see that Paul is telling the truth. Why would the church need instructions to "not let sin and lust reign" if that was something that would automatically be defeated and/or covered by simply "believing in Jesus"?

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Hear is the truth again: Obedience Leading to Righteousness . . . Wait a sec! I thought that none are righteous Paul? Why a different tune here?
Notice also that Paul says, that you are a slave to obey either SIN, or OBEDIENCE.

Who does Paul obey?



Romans 7

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (ha ha ha)

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not [!!!!!!!!!!!]

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and [bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (two masters?)



Looks like Paul says that you will obey sin AND Messiah (two masters)



17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Note the bold part here is truth again. He's saying to be righteous, even though he says elsewhere that it's not possible. What gives?

All we have to do is believe.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Acts 16

31 And they said (Paul and Silas), Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



COMPARE WITH



Matthew 19:17
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command."



Jesus shows that it is more than just believing that He died for you. It is [doing] as He has done (and even greater things)

Peace in Messiah,

Aaron

[Bob Hill]

Messenger,

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

This is from the book of Revelation 2:5. That has nothing to do with the Body of Christ. That is in another dispensation.

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

What I believe we are really discussing is the answer to the question, “What Must I Do to Be Saved?” It is not just that Christ died for our sins, because that is not the answer in every dispensation.

In addition to believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior, is there anything else that you must do to make sure you are saved? For instance, if I fall away, can I be saved?

If you are depending on what the Bible says in Heb 6:4-6, the answer would be, No!
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

In contrast it says something quite different in Eph 1:4-14 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

We cannot lose our salvation in this dispensation, the dispensation of grace.

Do we have to confess our sins to have them forgiven? Under the gospel given to the circumcision apostles, the answer is yes. 1 Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
In the present dispensation of grace, we do not have to confess our sins. In answer to the question, “What must I do to be saved? We look to Acts 16:30-31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. ”

No confession is needed.

Do we have to be water baptized to have our sins forgiven? Under the dispensation when the 11 were presenting the message to the Jews after Christ’s resurrection, but before the body of Christ started with the salvation of Paul, Peter said they had to be water baptized to be saved. Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

When Paul wrote to the Corinthians after the dispensation of grace had started, he explained to them since he had been to Corinth, that it was Spirit baptism, now. 1 Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free - and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

The 12 apostles under the gospel of the circumcision preached that you had to be water baptized to be saved.

Paul wrote in 1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Some teach that you have to live according to God’s law to be saved.
Let me ask you this final question. Do you have to do works of the law to be saved? It says you do in the book of James. Jam 1:25; 2:6-12,14,24 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

But in the dispensation of grace which God gave to Paul, works are not a necessary part of the redemptive process. Rom 4:4-5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

God has two main gospels. One was given to Paul and one to Peter.
Gal 2:2-9 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 7 . . . when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship of the circumcision also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcision.

The circumcision gospel had conditions. But, the uncircumcision gospel had no conditions, just believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Further, Paul’s message had some secret elements.
Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

We are not under the circumcision gospel. Therefore, the Circumcision Epistles (Hebrews through Revelation) do not apply to us for salvation or security in our Dispensation of Grace.

In Christ,
Bob Hill :first:

[Bob Hill]

Here is the problem.

Israel had the law, the covenants, the adoption, the glory, and the promises, but God still cut them off. Why?

He cut off all of Israel from the special opportunity they had with God. But notice, in the metaphor of the olive tree, God only cut out those of unbelief. Rom 11:20-22 “Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Israel fell out of her special privileged relationship with God. But only those who did not believe were in this category.

We must be careful to read the 11th chapter in its context of Rom 9-11. In Rom 9:30, we see that the Israelites who were cut off were unbelievers trying to establish their own righteousness rather than submitting to God’s righteousness, Rom 9:30-10:4 “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: ‘Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, and whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.’ 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

The ones cut off were never saved. They fell from the special opportunity that Israel had. Any Jew could believe after the body of Christ started, but now their opportunity was not special like it was.

God is going to make the opportunity special again after the rapture. Then Israel will be purged in the tribulation.

When God is through with the Gentiles in this dispensation, all the believers will be raptured, all the unbelieving Gentiles will be cut off, and everyone will be under the circumcision gospel rules of the tribulation.

Eternal security or lack of it, is not the question in Rom 11:11-31 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

Notice the whole purpose of this section is summarized for us in Rom 11:32 “For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.”

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[solarb]

Paul of Tarsus

Paul, the "Apostle of the Gentiles", writing a letterIn his writings, Saul, later known as Paul, though not one of the Twelve, described himself as an apostle, one "born out of time" ([/FONT]e.g. Romans 1:1 and other letters), claimed he was appointed by the resurrected Jesus himself during his Road to Damascus vision; specifically he referred to himself as the Apostle to the Gentiles (Romans 11:13, Galatians 2:8). He also described some of his companions as apostles (Barnabas, Silas, Apollos, Andronicus and Junia) and even some of his opponents as super-apostles (2nd Corinthians 11:5 and 12:11). As the Catholic Encyclopedia states: "It is at once evident that in a Christian sense, everyone who had received a mission from God, or Christ, to man could be called 'Apostle'";
tO pAUL ANYONE CAN BE A aPOSTLE. SO MUCH FOR THE ORIGINAL 12

[solarb]

Since Paul claimed to have received the Gospel through a revelation of Jesus Christ (cf. Gal 1:12; Acts 9:3-19, 26-27, 22:6-21, 26:12-23) after the latter's death and resurrection, (rather than before like the Twelve) , he was often obliged to defend his apostolic authority (1st Corinthians 9:1 "Am I not an apostle?") and proclaim that he had seen and was anointed by Jesus while on the road to Damascus; but James, Peter and John in Jerusalem accepted his apostleship to the Gentiles (specifically those not circumcised) as of equal authority as Peter's to the Jews (specifically those circumcised) according to Paul in Galatians 2:7-9. "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars ... agreed that we <Paul and Barnabas> should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews." (Galatians 2:9NIV) Paul sometimes replaces Matthias in classical depictions of "The Twelve Apostles."

Many historians maintain that Paul and Peter certainly disagreed on the extent of Paul's authority as an Apostle, with Peter maintaining Paul was not one of those chosen by Jesus, or by his chosen after his death. See also Pauline Christianity and Jewish Christians.

Nevertheless, the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church consider Paul an Apostle; they honor Paul and Peter together on June 29

[Jefferson]

...Peter certainly disagreed on the extent of Paul's authority as an Apostle, with Peter maintaining Paul was not one of those chosen by Jesus...What verse says that?

[Bob Hill]

When we look at Paul’s writings, Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God, we should be able to call Paul a messenger of Jesus Christ.

Since Epaphroditus was sent by the Philippians with a mission to see Paul, Epaphroditus was their apostle. However, Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Paul was the only apostle that God designated as His apostle for our present Dispensation of Grace. That’s why it said that he was “called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[amosman]

Shaul never taught against torah even though it was rumored he did by false witnesses. 1900 years later men are still passing on the false rumor that Paul taught a gospel that was contrary to the Law.

[Bob Hill]

Paul may not be against the Law, because he said it was a condemning instrument, but God inspired him to write that we, in the Dispensation of Grace, are not under law!!!

Romans 6:13-15 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Safe in Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

When we contrast Peter and his gospel with Paul and his gospel, we see big differences.

2nd Peter was probably written to believers just like those related in Acts 21:20: And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law.

It is difficult to determine whether they were zealous for the Lord or zealous for the law. When Peter wrote them, some of them appeared to have problems with their works and thus, their salvation. 2 Pet 1:9,10 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble

We must remember that these believers would be those who believed before Paul was saved and the new Dispensation of Grace started and body of Christ began.

When we study Peter’s second epistle, we must remember the status of the believers to whom he wrote. They were experiencing aspects of the new covenant. Also, the eternal covenant of circumcision (Gen 17:7-14) will always apply to Israel and Gentiles who had become proselytes to that message of salvation. Therefore, Peter and the recipients of his letter were under the conditional covenant of circumcision. Those conditional concepts for salvation are completely unknown to the gospel of the uncircumcision, the gospel associated with the our Dispensation of the Grace of God.

Bob Hill

[Messenger]

Paul did preach a gospel different from Peter's. But that was because God gave him that new gospel when he was in the desert for about 3 years.

That gospel is not works oriented like the gospel given to Peter and John.

According to that gospel, i am saved by believing that Christ died for my sins. He did, and I am saved and sure I am going to heaven.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

And yet Messiah Himself never said that you would be saved by simply believing that He died for your sins. He said to "keep my commands if you want to enter life"

Matthew 19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.



John 14:12 (KJV)

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


Not this:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

TWO MASTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!


You guys are trading the teaching of your own Messiah for the garbage from some guy you don't even know. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO SAUL REALLY WAS

SAUL'S GOSPEL IS MUCH EASIER TO ACCOMPLISH BECAUSE IT DOESN'T INVOLVE LIVING THE WAY MESSIAH DID. IT INSTEAD INVOLVES "LETTING YOUR FLESH DO WHATEVER IT WANTS"

Proverbs 25:28
Like a city whose walls are broken down is a man who lacks self-control.


Acts 24:25
As Paul discoursed on righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and said, "That's enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you."


1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Galatians 5:23
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


2 Timothy 3:3
without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,


2 Peter 1:6
and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;


NOTICE Paul encourages others to have self control . . . . so where does "and with the flesh, serve a second law of sin" fit in?
MAKES NO SENSE

Peace in Messiah,

Aaron

[Bob Hill]

When we study Peter’s and Paul’s gospels, we see that they were both given by Christ. Peter received his from Christ when He was on Earth. Paul received his from the resurrected and ascended Christ.

When we read Peter and Paul’s interactions in Acts, it seems that Peter had difficulty comprehending the new concept of justification by faith without works and concepts of the mystery which Paul wrote in Romans and his other epistles, even though he was blessed with the knowledge aspects of the new covenant.

Apparently Peter and John, and the recipients of their letters knew all things that pertained to their dispensation that was still under the law to the extent that they didn’t even need teaching.
1 Jo 2:20,21,24-27 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. . . . 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us - eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
That is why the penalty is so severe for their spiritual defection.

2 Peter 1:3,4 His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

“By which” (plural) probably refers to “all things” in verse three. Peter was showing them how they could become partakers of the divine nature.

In contrast, isn’t it amazing how blessed we are who are believers in this Dispensation of Grace?

We have already been made a new creation in Christ.

We have already put on Christ.

We are members of His body.

We are sealed into our relationship with Him.

Theirs is conditional, to be realized in the future, as it shows in verse 5-10.
2 Peter 1:5-10 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.

“Stumble” as used here means “be ruined, be lost . . . of the loss of salvation,” but may have the meaning, “to make a mistake, go astray, sin,” as well [Bauer Danker].

The apostle’s exhortation to make their calling and election sure, implies that their calling and election were at this point conditional.

This passage is devastating to the Calvinistic view of election.

However, this exhortation is in accord with the conditional nature of the gospel associated with the covenant of circumcision.

They were participating in a process of salvation. They did not, then, and will not have the security of salvation when the Tribulation starts, that we have, now, in the Dispensation of Grace.

Remember verse 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble. When they do remember, according to 2 Peter 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

That statement is in sharp contrast to Paul’s assertion in Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.

Their entrance into the eternal kingdom was, and will be dependent on doing “these things”.

For us it is already done! We were chosen (elected) in Him. Our election is sure because we have been baptized into the body of Christ (Rom 6:3,4; 1 Co 12:13). Since Christ is the “Elect One” (Isa 4:1), and we have been identified with Him, we also are elect.

At the same time that we were identified with Him, we were sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

We are secure, but their salvation is conditional.
What a great blessing we have in our present Dispensation of Grace.
Eph 3:8-12 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Messenger,

Since you are Messianic Jew, I wouldn't expect you to agree with me.

I would be happy if you put your trust in Jesus Christ and His death for you, but I understand that you won't, at least at this time.

Bob Hill

[Jay Santos]

THE 'LEAVEN' OF THE APOSTLE PAUL:

(stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8

(boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

(speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17

(trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16


We've been warned before about "devils in disguise" as "angels of light"... Here is a scriptural look into the mind of a deceiver - via the pages of Corinthians I and II. The devil's in the details:

(Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/1

(Paul decides to pass judgment on someone)

"And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just if I were present." I Cor 5:3

(Paul decides to consult with Satan, not Jesus, concerning the man he passed judgment on)

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." I Cor 5:5

(Paul thinks he is better than anyone else)

"I wish that all men were as I am." I Cor 7:7

(Paul admits to injecting his own opinions into scripture)

"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):" I Cor 7:12

(Paul, who is single, gives faulty advice on marriage)

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am" I Cor 7:8

"Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." I Cor 7:27

(Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)

"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29

(Paul advocates staying the same and not progressing forward)

"Each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him." I Cor 7:20

(What does Paul have against marriage?)

"An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:" I Cor 7:34

"But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please her husband." I Cor 7:34

(strange talk)

"In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is - and I think that I too have the spirit of God." I Cor 7:40

(Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)

"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

"If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11

(Paul loves the sin of pride)

"I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast." I Cor 9:15

(Paul decrees that a hairstyle can keep you from being a good Christian)

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a discrace to him," I Cor 11:14

(Paul even passes judgment on growling stomachs)

"If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." I Cor 11:34

(Paul curses an entire people who may not have heard Jesus' gospel)

"If anyone does not love the lord - a curse be on him."

PAUL DISTORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD:

Here is but one time that Paul mis-quoted scripture. In II Cor 6:2 Paul asserts that God said something that God didn't:

For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of my salvation I helped you." II Cor 6:2

What Isaiah 49:8 REALLY says is:

This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances," Isaiah 49:8

Why did Paul lie, distort scripture? And how would any believer defend this as something "O.K."?

So that no one will accuse me of taking anything out of context - I will include surrounding passages in addition to referencing the chapter number and passage numbers for this next example:

"Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

---surrounding passages---

"In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool." II Cor 11:17

"You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!" II Cor 11:19

Here is Paul not only boasting as "the world does" - but expressing a "self-confident" attitude in this boasting! And then, shockingly, Paul confesses that what he says is not coming from the Lord. (who then is it coming from?) Then Paul admits that he is talking "as a fool"

A boasting, self-confident, self-proclaimed foolish talker who admits that he is not speaking godly wisdom?

II CORINHTIANS BOASTING, DECEPTION, AND FOOLISHNESS:


(Paul causes the Corinthians pain and hurt on several instances)

"So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you." II Cor 2:1

"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while." II Cor 7:8

(Paul shows envy of other apostles, false humility, a need for congratulation, and more foolish talk)

"I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the 'super-apostles', even though I am nothing." II Cor 12:11

(Paul admits that Satan is in him - tormenting him)

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7

(Paul resorts to sneaky, under-handed tactics - WWJD?)

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal whith us in the things they boast about." II Cor 11:12

(Nothing seems to stop Paul from his boasting)

"I must go on boasting." II Cor 12:1

(Paul's threat to punish - what happened to the love of Christ?)

"On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others," II Cor 13:2 B

Is this who founded the Christian religion? A man who admits that Satan is in him tormenting him? Again - what about this self-confession of demon possession:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7

Are Christians really that quick to accept the teachings of a man who openly admits that a messenger of Satan (demon) is tormenting him...?

Especially when Jesus' works/miracles included healing the demon-possesed and casting out demons?

Do you not think that Jesus would have wanted to 'cleanse' or heal the "supposed" apostle to the gentiles? Couple this with the fact that Paul's initial "supposed" contact with Jesus resulted in blindness?

What if your preacher got up in your pulpit this Sunday, and then proceeded to tell you that a messenger from Satan resided in him... then why would you allow him to continue to preach the Word?

Looking forward to some wonderful insight, and discussion as we discern the Truth together.

Michael111


Those examples are really just ripped out of context and misunderstood by the accusor. :rain:

Also: Paul was reffering to the Greek OT (septuigent) and we are reading from the Massoretic text. There are a few small discrepencies in wording, but the meaning is still there.

[Bob Hill]

Paul wrote, 1 Cor 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

[Bob Hill]

Michael Eden wrote: “Paul thinks he is better than anyone else”. :jump: :jump:

No he didn’t.

Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Bob Hill

[Messenger]

Messenger,

Since you are Messianic Jew, I wouldn't expect you to agree with me.

I would be happy if you put your trust in Jesus Christ and His death for you, but I understand that you won't, at least at this time.

Bob Hill

Oh I trust the Father and His Son Bob Hill. Enough to listen to what they say. Which is:

TURN FROM SIN OR DIE. SERVE ONLY ONE MASTER OR DIE. FOLLOW THE COMMANDS OR DIE.

The choice is on =>me<=.

If I truly have free will, then I am capable of chosing to either sin, or not sin.

That is a frightening statement to the lazy and unfaithful servant.

You show me where either Yah or Yeshua say different . . . YOU CANT

In one of the Timothy letters, Paul says "Jesus" came to save sinners.

NOT SO

He came to lead His lost sheep of the house of Israel and show them how to be righteous.

Just like King David ("save for the matter of Uriah").

Just like Noah.

Just like Enoch.

To argue otherwise is to go against the two heavenly people that REALLY matter.

Messiah is coming to bind, and cast "sinners" into outer darkness, and also into unquenchable flames . . . and outside the gates of His Father's Kingdom, and anywhere else that sucks . . . where they can all weep and gnash their teeth. Not pretty, but yet true. I'm not happy about that, but yet it's still true. That's why the righteous morn for the world. Because there is hell to pay.

So as you can see, He's not coming to save sinners, but to destroy them. Even the sinners who thought that He died for them, but yet continued on with their old master ("and with their flesh, served a second law of sin")

[Messenger]

Paul wrote, 1 Cor 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
Why would Paul even say to "immitate me"

That is sooooooooooo smug even right there.


Why wouldn't Paul just say "immitate Christ"

That's like me saying "Bob Hill, you should imitate me, because I want to be like Messiah" . . . you'd be like:
"who does this guy think he is, telling me to immitate him?"

Why would Paul say "I am like your father" while Yah says, "Call no-one on earth your father"

????????????????

[Messenger]

Messenger,

Since you are Messianic Jew, I wouldn't expect you to agree with me.

I would be happy if you put your trust in Jesus Christ and His death for you, but I understand that you won't, at least at this time.

Bob Hill

For the record, I am not a Jew, who are descended from Judah and from whence we get our Lion of Judah ;-)

I am an Israelite, from one of the northern ten kingdoms who were dispersed (diaspora) after the reign of Solomon.

From which tribe, however, is a topic for a whole other thread.

There is no option for "Messianic Israelite"

[Bob Hill]

Messenger,

God inspired Paul to write that. That's good enough for me.

Bob Hill

[amosman]

Paul may not be against the Law, because he said it was a condemning instrument, but God inspired him to write that we, in the Dispensation of Grace, are not under law!!!

Romans 6:13-15 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Safe in Christ,
Bob Hill
Paul is correct when he says "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."
The trouble comes when we believe that means we don't have to keep Gods Torah(intructions). Paul also said " What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"
John says " sin is transgression of the law."
Let me state very clearly that we are not justified by keeping torah.
Please answer this question. If when we are being led by the Spirit, we are not under the law, What if we are not led by the Spirit? Whouldn't that put us under the law? Because we are in sin and in violation of torah.

[jeremysdemo]

Hey guys I'm new here but have been lurking for some time now.

I have read through the entire thread.
From what I've read it seems Eden didn't present a valid argument, or perhaps he chose not to continue with all the personal jabs.
From what I can tell Messanger has made a few decent points using scripture.
What I don't understand is the inability for people claiming to have the Spirit of God in them to simply look at the data and refrain from personal attacks.
Is this a theology forum or a childrens play yard?
Jesus says when he was young he did childish things but when he grew older he had to put away these things.
Are we ALL following Him? It's hard to see that from the majority of responses in this thread.
I would think the best witness to the "New being" within us, and to God's Glory would be mature and loving behavior from His followers.(even when facing such adversities)
When we are filled with HIS SPIRIT, then we be bumped or shaken, the only thing that spills out is His Spirit.

Anyway, I don't wish to get into a heated debate. Personally it seems that if your are going to discuss theology you need to leave your emotions at the door, before entering.
The problem arises when things that are said (and might possibly be true) conflict with our personal beliefs.
But the most Christ like way to behave is to look at these data's, and judge their relevance accordingly,
without the need to cast aspersions on the people who have spent the time collecting the data's.
Jesus taught tolerance, and Loving one another, and it would be nice if those following Him could follow His example here.
We should certainly advise someone if what they are believing causes them to sin, but we should respect the views of others concerning Jesus.
He was a mysterious man, and many people hold many different views of who he was and what significance His teachings have on their lives.


What I am going to do is post a list of POINTS.
These are data's about this topic which I have collected. Some of them may be true, some may be false.
But rather than people attacking me are making assumptions about my relationship with Christ, I would ask only this:
Answer with "Agree." or "Disagree" to each point, and give reason if need be for either answer.
I would also suggest people create their own counter points, and/or points of their own that they feel relevant to what I call, " a Thesis" concerning Paul, Jesus, and the influence what Paul said had on Christianity.
I think this method can provide for an orderly and civil discussion.
As a preface, my points generally are centered around a specific warning that Jesus gave to four individuals concerning believing others who come and say they are Him.
However they include a range of information that separately might seem irrelevant to the "thesis" but should it develope or progress,
these points may later reveal their importance.
I have a exhausting amount of data on this topic, but prefer to use these few points to test the waters, so to speak, and see of they are still enough to discuss this topic in a mature Christ like fashion.
Also the premise is not to incriminate Paul, but rather to look at what Jesus said, what is prophetic, and how that relates to those whom came after Him.
Because I do believe that is what most Christians desire, to follow Jesus.
So if He gave us warnings, it is wise to investigate such things from the generation that these prophecies were given to.

But would first like to address this post since some of what is discussed here will be addressed in the points:


To question Paul is to question the authority of the other apostles since the Peter, James, and John accepted Paul's apostleship (Gal. 2:9). It is also putting the writings of Luke into question since in Acts 13:1-3, Luke wrote that it's the Holy Spirit who set apart Saul and Barny for the work they were called to. It is also putting into question Peter's endorsement of Paul (2 Peter 3:15)


So to sum it up, if you choose to question Paul's authority then you have to question Peter, Luke, and James. As far as books of the NT goes, that only leaves us with Matt., John, 1, 2, 3 John, Jude, and the Revelation. But, if you reject Peter, you have to reject John as well, because John clearly considers Peter an apostle in his writings, as does Matthew.

Therefore, to reject Paul, if you want to be consistent, leaves us with only Jude. I think the NT is pretty clear that Paul was an apostle.
I would assert to that Peter, James,or John never go on record in the NT validating Paul's apostle ship. Neither do any of the 11 appointed by Jesus including the replacement for Judas who was chosen under group prayer, and a casting of lots for two whom the 11 determined appropriate replacement, the lot falling to Matthias.
Also they only chose the two as candidates because they were witness to the whole ministry and resurrection of Christ.
In Galations (which is written by Paul) he says the three "gave him the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles" RSV.
This will be addressed in point 5j.
As far as II Peter goes, with respect to the favorable reference to Paul that will be addressed in point 21j.
Now to respond to this statement in particular:

So to sum it up, if you choose to question Paul's authority then you have to question Peter, Luke, and James. As far as books of the NT goes, that only leaves us with Matt., John, 1, 2, 3 John, Jude, and the Revelation. But, if you reject Peter, you have to reject John as well, because John clearly considers Peter an apostle in his writings, as does Matthew.
I disagree.
I don't look at every person in the Bible as being mutually exclusive; also you left out Mark.
There are lessons to be learned, even by those who went against the commandments, and warnings that God told them specifically.
For example:
Moses, never entered Canan's land, for reasons laid out in the OT. I would hardly use that as a reason to discard his writings. But something can be learned of it.
Solomon fell to the many lures of his wives.
Again I wouldn't use that reason to discard any of his writings, we can learn.
It seems God uses these thing to teach us. Also he does say in Deuteronomy that He will send false prophets to test our loyalty to Him.
If the "thesis" holds any weight it is not to discard any of these writings, but rather to learn from prophecies that Jesus made over these people, and to learn from the consequences not following His warnings has.
In addition, although not commonly known to most Christians there has always been opposition to the teachings of Paul by Christians. From before the formation of the Cannon by Emperor Constantine, to present day.
I would say it's not heresy or blasphemous to question anyones teachings, as a matter of point, we are encouraged to "test" the spirits in John 4:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:1;&version=9;)


We should not be fearful of someone else finding fault in what we build our own beliefs on, to the point of belittling anyone who doesn't agree with them. For such a demonstration of aspersion goes against the very teaching of the One whom we follow (meaning Jesus).
And if we as 'Christians' believe the Bible to be "Spirit' inspired and in some cases direct words from God; than we should have confidence in His truth bearing itself out, rather than trying to impose our own interpretations on others.. the truth needs no defender. And the best defense is a good offence, and with the words of Christ, we have that.
Even if someone was in err to the point they are in risk of sin, or true blasphemy, the best thing for us to do is to encourage them to seek the truth with the aid of the Spirit, and correct any errors in the data they are presenting.
This would be a service to them, as opposed to the dis-service we would acheive by alienating them, with an assertion that their concern is ridiculous and unfounded.
Or that their faith and relationship with God is somehow directly parallel to their ability to agree with mainstream interpretations of the Bible.
Let's not hide His light under a bushel, (the bushel being the means by which we measure others)
We are the servants of men here people.


I will also add, that I use both Christian and non-Christian sources for the data.
The reason I chose to include non-Christian resources is for a control variable.
Over the centuries many of the translations of Greek text included in the NT have been done by Christians. this posses a very real concern to me.
The concern being, that depending on denomination, and beliefs the words have been slanted to fit those beliefs.
I prefer to get the original text (if possible) and obtain a non-slanted translation.
It's not that I discard Christian based translations, I just prefer to have both when trying to determine what was said, along with studying the surrounding culture customs and traditions of the people writing the text.
To me it is important to determine what Jesus really said as opposed to what MAN later added.
I would like to include that I fully believe in Jesus as the Son of God, and as one who "Showed the Way" to get into heaven, and have a relationship with GOD on earth.
However, I understand my view of Jesus, and all the words attributed to Him greatly differ form that of main stream Christianity.
This is partially due to an extensive study of the Bible, and other texts about the life and ministry of Christ, including whatever can be confirmed with His Spirit as truth.
I don't force my interpretations on anyone, nor do I make assumptions that those who have different beliefs are somehow "lost", and would appreciate the same from anyone responding to me or the points.

So without further adieu here are the points for consideration:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
1j. Jesus is a prophet and He warned Peter, James, John and Andrew privately that someone would come and say they were Him;
Mark 13:3-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:3-6&version=9;)
“Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name saying 'I am He' and will deceive many.”
1j.a.In that same chapter He also made many public prophecies.
1j.b. At the end of this chapter Jesus clearly says
“Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. “
Mark 13:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:30;&version=9;) That’s puts all these prophecies within that generation.
2j. There is no record of a prophecy attributed to Paul in the Bible;
that is anything that he predicted that later happened which could only have been known by the Spirit of God.
(outside of what Jesus or other prophets predicted beforehand)
2j.a. Paul instructs others within the churches on prophecy.
1 Corinthians 14:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014:3-5;&version=9;)
3j. According to the words of Jesus one can cast out demons in His name and still not get into heaven.
Matthew 7:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:21-23;&version=9;) Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord' did we not prophecy in your name,
and in your name drive out demons and perform miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!
And if the Lord knows you not, you could have a huge ministry and even become a Saint by mans standards
but that does not guarantee you are His prophet or His servant.
4j. Someone/spirit did come to John, and the others and to Paul in these recorded events.
In the case of John and the others there were many witnesses to that account Luke 24:36-43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:36-43;&version=9;) and John 20:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:19;&version=9;).
In the case of Paul we have only his single witness in the Bible claiming it was Jesus, Acts 9:1-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:1-7;&version=9;)
and the others who were with him saw nothing but heard a voice.
5.j. Out of 22 times Paul is referred to as an apostle in the NT only twice was it by someone other than himself; both times by Luke.
Acts 14:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2014:4;&version=9;) Acts 14:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2014:14;&version=9;)
5j.a When choosing the replacement Apostle for Judas the group prayed, and then chose two who were witness to the full ministry of Christ, and His resurrection.
The lot falling on Matthias. Acts 1:15-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%201:15-27;&version=9;)
6j. The words of Jesus for those who believe Him to be God supercede all words from anyone who came after him.
7j. Comparing the synopsis between the four Gospels is a fair way to determine with a good amount of certainty what Jesus really said.
Here is an easy online reference for 3 of the Gospels synopses:
3 gospel comparison chart (http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/Gospel_synopses.htm)
8j.Prayer, Meditation, and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us is also a good way to understand the wisdom in the scripture,
provided the heart is properly motivated by faith to start with and in good standing with the Lord.
8ja. We can use both methods to find both factual truths and spiritual wisdom's.
9j. According to Paul the devil is able to come in any image, even an angel of light 2 2 Corinthians 11:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011:14;&version=9;) .
Historic Devil (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Devil)
9j.a. This characteristic of Satan isn't found in the OT Ezekiel 28:12-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2028:12-15;&version=9;)
Isaiah 14:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014:12-14;&version=9;)
9j.b. But Jesus did warn of anyone coming and saying they were Him, in Paul's generation. Mark 13:3-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:3-6;&version=9;)
10j. Man traditionally takes things that are good and from God and makes them into something else.
11j. The devil is a mimicker and even will use scripture to try and fool people. Luke 4:9-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%204:9-12;&version=9;)
11j.a Beginning in the Garden of Eden with Eve from the very first words he utter to man,
Genesis 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:1;&version=9;) to the temptation of Jesus Matthew 4:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:6;&version=9;) this has been Satan’s M.O.
12j. The authenticity of the epistles attributed to Paul, although has it's relevance to Christians,
has no relevance to the warning of Jesus about those who come and say they are Him.
(see links below to learn which texts are in question)
13j. There is a difference between fact based research and faith based searches.
The two have there separate relevancy and uses.
14j. In the case of the Burning Bush, Exodus 3:1-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%203:1-22;&version=9;) Exodus 4:1-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%204:1-17;&version=9;) , the account is full of the prophetic word of God,
giving details to Moses as to what will transpire in the mission God is calling him to.
Enough details about the future to fill two chapters.
14j.a In the case of Paul’s account in Acts 9:1-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:1-9;&version=9;) it says nothing more than,
"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do".
15j. None of the twelve disciples/apostles appointed by Jesus ever call Paul an apostle in the Bible.
16j. There are only twelve apostles mentioned in Revelation.
Revelations 21:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelations%2021:14;&version=9;)
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
17j. This passage speaks of FALSE apostles:
Revelation 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:2;&version=9;)
“I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil:
and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: “
18j.God revealed the Law of Moses, that it terms should be “for ever and for all generations”
Exodus 27:21 Exodus 30:21 Leviticus 6:18 ;7:36 ; 10:9 ; 17:7 ; 23:14,21,41 ; 24:3 Numbers 10:18 ; 15:15
18j.a. This was to be included in a covenant expressly made with the seed of Israel, and did not include Ishmael or his seed. Genesis 17:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:7;&version=9;)
18j.b. The Original Covenant was to continue though out the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:7;&version=9;)
19j. The writings of the Jews were classified into three distinct categories The Law, The Prophets, and Writings.
19.j.a. The Law and the Prophets was considered the word of God, while Writings were considered holy but not direct word of God.
19j.b. Jesus affirmed the validity of The Law and The Prophets, and also included Psalms in this passage.
Luke 24:44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:44;&version=9;)
19j.c. Jesus says “I did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets” Matthew 5:17-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:17-18;&version=9;)
20j. There is a clear warning in Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:1-5;&version=9;) about the Lord allowing false teachers to test us to find out
“wether we Love Him with all our heart and all our soul.”
20j.a. It also talks about one who tells us to “follow other Gods.”
That would include any God that contradicts the Law and Prophets, or Jesus.
20j.b.. Thus any writing in the NT era must first and foremost satisfy the criteria of Jeremiah 31:31-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2031:31-36;&version=9;) Isaiah 8:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%208:20;&version=9;) and Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:1-5;&version=9;) to be considered scripture.
21j. None of the writings of the twelve apostles in 1 John, 2 John, 3, John, or 1 Peter
detract from the prophecy of[/URL] or fail to meet the criteria for scripture or prophecy in 20j.b.
21j.a.The same can be said for the writings of James and Jude.
(History of II Peter (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2031:31-36;&version=9;) is considered a pseudepigraph and per that possibility could not be included in this point)
22j. Paul denies the ongoing validity of the Law for both Jew and Gentile.
Ephesians 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:15;&version=9;) Colossians 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:14;&version=9;) 2 Corinthians 3:11-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%203:11-17;&version=9;) Romans 7:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:13;&version=9;) Galatians 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:19;&version=9;)
22j.a. Paul is the only one in the Bible to refer to the Original Covenant as the Old Covenant. 2 Corinthians 3:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%203:14;&version=9;)
23j. Paul says the angels gave the Law to Moses Galatians 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:19;&version=9;)
23j.a. This is possibly a contradiction to Hebrew scripture Exodus 20:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:1;&version=9;)
“and God spoke all these words:”
23j.b. Although there are other accounts of Angels speaking to men, this particular account where the Law is given to Moses,
the Hebrew text says it was God speaking, not angels.
24j. Paul teaches several churches that it acceptable to eat meat sacrificed to idols and not observe the Sabbath. Colossians 2:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:16-17;&version=9;)
1 Corinthians 8:3-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%208:3-13;&version=9;) 1 Corinthians 10:19-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2010:19-29;&version=9;) Romans 14:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:5;&version=9;) Romans 14:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:21;&version=9;)
24j.a. Although it seems to be Pauls assertion that "meat" is just "meat" and according to Jesus we are judged by our hearts,
we have to concede that if God forbid such things He has GOOD reasons for doing so.
25j. In a passage written 20-30 years after Paul’s death in Revelations the Ephesians are commended for not listening
to false apostles teaching that it was acceptable to eat meat sacrificed to idols Revelations 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelations%202:14;&version=9;)
25j.a. Paul told the Ephesians he was an apostle. Ephesians 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:1;&version=50;)
26j. Jesus taught if a husband unjustifiably divorces a wife and she remarries, she commits adultery with her new husband. Matthew 5:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:32;&version=9;)
26j.a Paul says this is untrue of the husband is a non-Christian.
She is free to marry another if the non-Christians divorces her for any reason. 1 Corinthians 7:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%207:15;&version=9;)
27j.Jesus prohibited calling any man on earth your teacher, Matthew 23:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023:8;&version=9;)
27j.a. Paul created a office in the church called teacher 1 Corinthians 12:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:28;&version=9;)
27j.b. The two Greek words for teacher are different, but both mean teacher in English.
28j.Jesus taught that faith alone doesn’t save you. He says if you call Him Lord but lack works of charity you won’t be recognized. Matthew 25:30-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%20Matthew%2025:30-46;&version=9;) .
28j.a. Jesus also teaches if you refuse to repent from sin by cutting off body parts ensnaring you will perish whole. Mark 9:42-48 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:42-48;&version=9;)
Along with may other passages that He specifically tells people to follow keep commandments.
28j.b. Paul teaches these are unnecessary works, you are saved by grace not by works. Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9;&version=9;)
You are saved if you have two beliefs: Jesus is Lord, and His resurrection. Romans 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:4;&version=9;) Galatians 1:11-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=9;)
29j. Under Revelation 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:2;&version=50;) the person had to:
a. Have been put on trial by the Ephesians church.
This account written by Luke places him in that town Acts 19:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:1;&version=9;) and the conflict at that church: Acts 19:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:8-9;&version=9;)
Paul's account to that event: 2 Corinthians 1:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%201:8-9;&version=9;) and again to Timothy in this letter2 Timothy 1:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%201:15;&version=9;)
There is also records of this in Jewish Antiquity accounts :
(Ebionites’ Homily 17 in the Clementine Homilies and the Damascus Document among the Dead Sea Scrolls)
A deep study of the epistle of James shows it is a laid out in a Christian-Judaic trial format typical of that era,
but who this trial is about specifically is never mentioned in the epistle.
b. Have told the Ephesians he was an apostle of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:1;&version=9;)
c. Have been wrong when he claimed to be an apostle of Jesus. Acts 19:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:8-9;&version=9;)
Adding point 5j. to further support this.
30j. Under Revelation 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:14;&version=50;) this person had to be:
a. someone who taught it was permissible to eat meat sacrificed to idols.
Colossians 2:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:16-17;&version=9;) [URL=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%208:%203-13;&version=9;]1 Corinthians 10:19-29 (1 Corinthians 8: 3-13) Romans 14:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:2;&version=9;) Romans 14:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:21;&version=9;)
31j. Under Revelation 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:8-9;&version=9;) , speaking to another church in Asia, this person had to be:
a. Someone who claimed to be a Jew; Romans 11:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1;&version=50;) He claims to be a Benjamite, but here: Acts 21:39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2021:39;&version=50;)
He states "I am a Jew from Tarsus", In this context he is speaking of his religious disposition. The religion of the Kingdom of Judah was "Jewish."
AND
b. someone who was not a true Jew.
(the historic record of Saul of Taurus in (Epipanius, Pararion 30.16. 6-9)
According to this Historic record of Jewish Antiquity Paul was circumcised later in life (being a Gentile) in order to try and marry a Judaic Priestess.
32. Jesus told Peter when he is old he would be led by another: John 21:15-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2021:15-18;&version=9;)
32j.a That can be considered prophecy to Peter, along with 1j.
33j. Here is another example of how Paul's teachings differ from the teachings of Jesus.
33j.a. JESUS- "But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, Luke 6:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206:27-28;&version=9;)
also in Matthew 5:43-44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:43-44;&version=9;) "bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."
33j.b. Paul- Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Rather, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Romans 12:19-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012:19-20;&version=9;)
33j.c. Jesus says to do good to your adversaries and pray for them, and makes no mention of "hot coals",
or any other thing that will befall someone you bless this way.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______

Also here is a brief list of the references for some of the thoughts and data with links were available:

Walter Bauer,
ORTHODOXY AND HERESY IN EARLIEST CHRISTIANITY (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Resources/Bauer/bauer_a1.htm)
Christopher Leighton, "Christian Theology After the Shoah," in
Christianity in Jewish Terms (http://www.questia.com/library/book/christianity-in-jewish-terms-by-tikva-frymer-kensky-david-novak-peter-ochs-david-fox-sandmel-michael-a-signer.jsp)
Garth Fowden, "Religious Communities" in Late Antiquity: A Guide to the Postclassical World
Celsus 1:47; 2:13; Commentary on Matthew 13:55
Robert Price (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Price) Deconstructing Jesus
Robert A. Kraft University of PennsylvaniaTHE PSEUDEPIGRAPHA IN CHRISTIANITY (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/other/journals/kraftpub/Pseudepigrapha%20in%20Christianity%20)
(the historic record of Saul of Taurus in (Epiphanius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphanius_of_Salamis), Pararion 30.16. 6-9) (a "Christian" historical writer)
Douglas J Del Tonto Jesus Words Only (http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/)
Historic reference for "This Generation" (http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/christians.html#Manahem) Included many "Christian writers of Jewish Antiquity, including Flavius Josephus. etc.
3 gospel comparision chart (http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/index.htm)
Who wrote Hebrews? (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/hebrews.html)
History of II Peter (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html)
Learn how Lucifer was edited out of the Ezekiel (except the KJV) I understand this is real conspiracy theory stuff, but interesting reading (http://www.angelfire.com/la/prophet1/prayingtoanewgod.html)
All the links included in the points are to the KJV, but on that site you can change them to any of 180 translations in every known language.

I will check back in a day or two..prolly after the holiday to see if anyone has anything to add.

keep shinin'

jerm :cool:

[aikido7]

Hey guys I'm new here but have been lurking for some time now.

I have read through the entire thread.
From what I've read it seems Eden didn't present a valid argument, or perhaps he chose not to continue with all the personal jabs.
From what I can tell Messanger has made a few decent points using scripture.
What I don't understand is the inability for people claiming to have the Spirit of God in them to simply look at the data and refrain from personal attacks.
Is this a theology forum or a childrens play yard?
Jesus says when he was young he did childish things but when he grew older he had to put away these things.
Are we ALL following Him? It's hard to see that from the majority of responses in this thread.
I would think the best witness to the "New being" within us, and to God's Glory would be mature and loving behavior from His followers.(even when facing such adversities)
When we are filled with HIS SPIRIT, then we be bumped or shaken, the only thing that spills out is His Spirit.

Anyway, I don't wish to get into a heated debate. Personally it seems that if your are going to discuss theology you need to leave your emotions at the door, before entering.
The problem arises when things that are said (and might possibly be true) conflict with our personal beliefs.
But the most Christ like way to behave is to look at these data's, and judge their relevance accordingly,
without the need to cast aspersions on the people who have spent the time collecting the data's.
Jesus taught tolerance, and Loving one another, and it would be nice if those following Him could follow His example here.
We should certainly advise someone if what they are believing causes them to sin, but we should respect the views of others concerning Jesus.
He was a mysterious man, and many people hold many different views of who he was and what significance His teachings have on their lives.


What I am going to do is post a list of POINTS.
These are data's about this topic which I have collected. Some of them may be true, some may be false.
But rather than people attacking me are making assumptions about my relationship with Christ, I would ask only this:
Answer with "Agree." or "Disagree" to each point, and give reason if need be for either answer.
I would also suggest people create their own counter points, and/or points of their own that they feel relevant to what I call, " a Thesis" concerning Paul, Jesus, and the influence what Paul said had on Christianity.
I think this method can provide for an orderly and civil discussion.
As a preface, my points generally are centered around a specific warning that Jesus gave to four individuals concerning believing others who come and say they are Him.
However they include a range of information that separately might seem irrelevant to the "thesis" but should it develope or progress,
these points may later reveal their importance.
I have a exhausting amount of data on this topic, but prefer to use these few points to test the waters, so to speak, and see of they are still enough to discuss this topic in a mature Christ like fashion.
Also the premise is not to incriminate Paul, but rather to look at what Jesus said, what is prophetic, and how that relates to those whom came after Him.
Because I do believe that is what most Christians desire, to follow Jesus.
So if He gave us warnings, it is wise to investigate such things from the generation that these prophecies were given to.

But would first like to address this post since some of what is discussed here will be addressed in the points:


I would assert to that Peter, James,or John never go on record in the NT validating Paul's apostle ship. Neither do any of the 11 appointed by Jesus including the replacement for Judas who was chosen under group prayer, and a casting of lots for two whom the 11 determined appropriate replacement, the lot falling to Matthias.
Also they only chose the two as candidates because they were witness to the whole ministry and resurrection of Christ.
In Galations (which is written by Paul) he says the three "gave him the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles" RSV.
This will be addressed in point 5j.
As far as II Peter goes, with respect to the favorable reference to Paul that will be addressed in point 21j.
Now to respond to this statement in particular:

I disagree.
I don't look at every person in the Bible as being mutually exclusive; also you left out Mark.
There are lessons to be learned, even by those who went against the commandments, and warnings that God told them specifically.
For example:
Moses, never entered Canan's land, for reasons laid out in the OT. I would hardly use that as a reason to discard his writings. But something can be learned of it.
Solomon fell to the many lures of his wives.
Again I wouldn't use that reason to discard any of his writings, we can learn.
It seems God uses these thing to teach us. Also he does say in Deuteronomy that He will send false prophets to test our loyalty to Him.
If the "thesis" holds any weight it is not to discard any of these writings, but rather to learn from prophecies that Jesus made over these people, and to learn from the consequences not following His warnings has.
In addition, although not commonly known to most Christians there has always been opposition to the teachings of Paul by Christians. From before the formation of the Cannon by Emperor Constantine, to present day.
I would say it's not heresy or blasphemous to question anyones teachings, as a matter of point, we are encouraged to "test" the spirits in John 4:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:1;&version=9;)


We should not be fearful of someone else finding fault in what we build our own beliefs on, to the point of belittling anyone who doesn't agree with them. For such a demonstration of aspersion goes against the very teaching of the One whom we follow (meaning Jesus).
And if we as 'Christians' believe the Bible to be "Spirit' inspired and in some cases direct words from God; than we should have confidence in His truth bearing itself out, rather than trying to impose our own interpretations on others.. the truth needs no defender. And the best defense is a good offence, and with the words of Christ, we have that.
Even if someone was in err to the point they are in risk of sin, or true blasphemy, the best thing for us to do is to encourage them to seek the truth with the aid of the Spirit, and correct any errors in the data they are presenting.
This would be a service to them, as opposed to the dis-service we would acheive by alienating them, with an assertion that their concern is ridiculous and unfounded.
Or that their faith and relationship with God is somehow directly parallel to their ability to agree with mainstream interpretations of the Bible.
Let's not hide His light under a bushel, (the bushel being the means by which we measure others)
We are the servants of men here people.


I will also add, that I use both Christian and non-Christian sources for the data.
The reason I chose to include non-Christian resources is for a control variable.
Over the centuries many of the translations of Greek text included in the NT have been done by Christians. this posses a very real concern to me.
The concern being, that depending on denomination, and beliefs the words have been slanted to fit those beliefs.
I prefer to get the original text (if possible) and obtain a non-slanted translation.
It's not that I discard Christian based translations, I just prefer to have both when trying to determine what was said, along with studying the surrounding culture customs and traditions of the people writing the text.
To me it is important to determine what Jesus really said as opposed to what MAN later added.
I would like to include that I fully believe in Jesus as the Son of God, and as one who "Showed the Way" to get into heaven, and have a relationship with GOD on earth.
However, I understand my view of Jesus, and all the words attributed to Him greatly differ form that of main stream Christianity.
This is partially due to an extensive study of the Bible, and other texts about the life and ministry of Christ, including whatever can be confirmed with His Spirit as truth.
I don't force my interpretations on anyone, nor do I make assumptions that those who have different beliefs are somehow "lost", and would appreciate the same from anyone responding to me or the points.

So without further adieu here are the points for consideration:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
1j. Jesus is a prophet and He warned Peter, James, John and Andrew privately that someone would come and say they were Him;
Mark 13:3-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:3-6&version=9;)
“Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name saying 'I am He' and will deceive many.”
1j.a.In that same chapter He also made many public prophecies.
1j.b. At the end of this chapter Jesus clearly says
“Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. “
Mark 13:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:30;&version=9;) That’s puts all these prophecies within that generation.
2j. There is no record of a prophecy attributed to Paul in the Bible.
2j.a. Paul instructs others within the churches on prophecy.
1 Corinthians 14:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014:3-5;&version=9;)
3j. According to the words of Jesus one can cast out demons in His name and still not get into heaven.
Matthew 7:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:21-23;&version=9;) Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord' did we not prophecy in your name,
and in your name drive out demons and perform miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!
And if the Lord knows you not, you could have a huge ministry and even become a Saint by mans standards
but that does not guarantee you are His prophet or His servant.
4j. Someone/spirit did come to John, and the others and to Paul in these recorded events.
In the case of John and the others there were many witnesses to that account Luke 24:36-43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:36-43;&version=9;) and John 20:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:19;&version=9;).
In the case of Paul we have only his single witness in the Bible claiming it was Jesus, Acts 9:1-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:1-7;&version=9;)
and the others who were with him saw nothing but heard a voice.
5.j. Out of 22 times Paul is referred to as an apostle in the NT only twice was it by someone other than himself; both times by Luke.
Acts 14:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2014:4;&version=9;) Acts 14:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2014:14;&version=9;)
5j.a When choosing the replacement Apostle for Judas the group prayed, and then chose two who were witness to the full ministry of Christ, and His resurrection.
The lot falling on Matthias. Acts 1:15-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%201:15-27;&version=9;)
6j. The words of Jesus for those who believe Him to be God supercede all words from anyone who came after him.
7j. Comparing the synopsis between the four Gospels is a fair way to determine with a good amount of certainty what Jesus really said.
Here is an easy online reference for 3 of the Gospels synopses:
3 gospel comparison chart (http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/Gospel_synopses.htm)
8j.Prayer, Meditation, and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us is also a good way to understand the wisdom in the scripture,
provided the heart is properly motivated by faith to start with and in good standing with the Lord.
8ja. We can use both methods to find both factual truths and spiritual wisdom's.
9j. According to Paul the devil is able to come in any image, even an angel of light 2 2 Corinthians 11:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011:14;&version=9;) .
Historic Devil (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Devil)
9j.a. This characteristic of Satan isn't found in the OT Ezekiel 28:12-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2028:12-15;&version=9;)
Isaiah 14:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014:12-14;&version=9;)
9j.b. But Jesus did warn of anyone coming and saying they were Him, in Paul's generation. Mark 13:3-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:3-6;&version=9;)
10j. Man traditionally takes things that are good and from God and makes them into something else.
11j. The devil is a mimicker and even will use scripture to try and fool people. Luke 4:9-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%204:9-12;&version=9;)
11j.a Beginning in the Garden of Eden with Eve from the very first words he utter to man,
Genesis 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:1;&version=9;) to the temptation of Jesus Matthew 4:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:6;&version=9;) this has been Satan’s M.O.
12j. The authenticity of the epistles attributed to Paul, although has it's relevance to Christians,
has no relevance to the warning of Jesus about those who come and say they are Him.
(see links below to learn which texts are in question)
13j. There is a difference between fact based research and faith based searches.
The two have there separate relevancy and uses.
14j. In the case of the Burning Bush, Exodus 3:1-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%203:1-22;&version=9;) Exodus 4:1-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%204:1-17;&version=9;) , the account is full of the prophetic word of God,
giving details to Moses as to what will transpire in the mission God is calling him to.
Enough details about the future to fill two chapters.
14j.a In the case of Paul’s account in Acts 9:1-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:1-9;&version=9;) it says nothing more than,
"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do".
15j. None of the twelve disciples/apostles appointed by Jesus ever call Paul an apostle in the Bible.
16j. There are only twelve apostles mentioned in Revelation.
Revelations 21:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelations%2021:14;&version=9;)
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
17j. This passage speaks of FALSE apostles:
Revelation 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:2;&version=9;)
“I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil:
and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: “
18j.God revealed the Law of Moses, that it terms should be “for ever and for all generations”
Exodus 27:21 Exodus 30:21 Leviticus 6:18 ;7:36 ; 10:9 ; 17:7 ; 23:14,21,41 ; 24:3 Numbers 10:18 ; 15:15
18j.a. This was to be included in a covenant expressly made with the seed of Israel, and did not include Ishmael or his seed. Genesis 17:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:7;&version=9;)
18j.b. The Original Covenant was to continue though out the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:7;&version=9;)
19j. The writings of the Jews were classified into three distinct categories The Law, The Prophets, and Writings.
19.j.a. The Law and the Prophets was considered the word of God, while Writings were considered holy but not direct word of God.
19j.b. Jesus affirmed the validity of The Law and The Prophets, and also included Psalms in this passage.
Luke 24:44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:44;&version=9;)
19j.c. Jesus says “I did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets” Matthew 5:17-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:17-18;&version=9;)
20j. There is a clear warning in Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:1-5;&version=9;) about the Lord allowing false teachers to test us to find out
“wether we Love Him with all our heart and all our soul.”
20j.a. It also talks about one who tells us to “follow other Gods.”
That would include any God that contradicts the Law and Prophets, or Jesus.
20j.b.. Thus any writing in the NT era must first and foremost satisfy the criteria of Jeremiah 31:31-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2031:31-36;&version=9;) Isaiah 8:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%208:20;&version=9;) and Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:1-5;&version=9;) to be considered scripture.
21j. None of the writings of the twelve apostles in 1 John, 2 John, 3, John, or 1 Peter
detract from the prophecy of[/URL] or fail to meet the criteria for scripture or prophecy in 20j.b.
21j.a.The same can be said for the writings of James and Jude.
(History of II Peter (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2031:31-36;&version=9;) is considered a pseudepigraph and per that possibility could not be included in this point)
22j. Paul denies the ongoing validity of the Law for both Jew and Gentile.
Ephesians 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:15;&version=9;) Colossians 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:14;&version=9;) 2 Corinthians 3:11-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%203:11-17;&version=9;) Romans 7:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:13;&version=9;) Galatians 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:19;&version=9;)
22j.a. Paul is the only one in the Bible to refer to the Original Covenant as the Old Covenant. 2 Corinthians 3:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%203:14;&version=9;)
23j. Paul says the angels gave the Law to Moses Galatians 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:19;&version=9;)
23j.a. This is possibly a contradiction to Hebrew scripture Exodus 20:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:1;&version=9;)
“and God spoke all these words:”
23j.b. Although there are other accounts of Angels speaking to men, this particular account where the Law is given to Moses,
the Hebrew text says it was God speaking, not angels.
24j. Paul teaches several churches that it acceptable to eat meat sacrificed to idols and not observe the Sabbath. Colossians 2:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:16-17;&version=9;)
1 Corinthians 8:3-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%208:3-13;&version=9;) 1 Corinthians 10:19-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2010:19-29;&version=9;) Romans 14:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:5;&version=9;) Romans 14:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:21;&version=9;)
24j.a. Although it seems to be Pauls assertion that "meat" is just "meat" and according to Jesus we are judged by our hearts,
we have to concede that if God forbid such things He has GOOD reasons for doing so.
25j. In a passage written 20-30 years after Paul’s death in Revelations the Ephesians are commended for not listening
to false apostles teaching that it was acceptable to eat meat sacrificed to idols Revelations 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelations%202:14;&version=9;)
25j.a. Paul told the Ephesians he was an apostle. Ephesians 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:1;&version=50;)
26j. Jesus taught if a husband unjustifiably divorces a wife and she remarries, she commits adultery with her new husband. Matthew 5:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:32;&version=9;)
26j.a Paul says this is untrue of the husband is a non-Christian.
She is free to marry another if the non-Christians divorces her for any reason. 1 Corinthians 7:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%207:15;&version=9;)
27j.Jesus prohibited calling any man on earth your teacher, Matthew 23:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023:8;&version=9;)
27j.a. Paul created a office in the church called teacher 1 Corinthians 12:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:28;&version=9;)
27j.b. The two Greek words for teacher are different, but both mean teacher in English.
28j.Jesus taught that faith alone doesn’t save you. He says if you call Him Lord but lack works of charity you won’t be recognized. Matthew 25:30-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%20Matthew%2025:30-46;&version=9;) .
28j.a. Jesus also teaches if you refuse to repent from sin by cutting off body parts ensnaring you will perish whole. Mark 9:42-48 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:42-48;&version=9;)
Along with may other passages that He specifically tells people to follow keep commandments.
28j.b. Paul teaches these are unnecessary works, you are saved by grace not by works. Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9;&version=9;)
You are saved if you have two beliefs: Jesus is Lord, and His resurrection. Romans 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:4;&version=9;) Galatians 1:11-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=9;)
29j. Under Revelation 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:2;&version=50;) the person had to:
a. Have been put on trial by the Ephesians church.
This account written by Luke places him in that town Acts 19:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:1;&version=9;) and the conflict at that church: Acts 19:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:8-9;&version=9;)
Paul's account to that event: 2 Corinthians 1:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%201:8-9;&version=9;) and again to Timothy in this letter2 Timothy 1:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%201:15;&version=9;)
There is also records of this in Jewish Antiquity accounts :
(Ebionites’ Homily 17 in the Clementine Homilies and the Damascus Document among the Dead Sea Scrolls)
A deep study of the epistle of James shows it is a laid out in a Christian-Judaic trial format typical of that era,
but who this trial is about specifically is never mentioned in the epistle.
b. Have told the Ephesians he was an apostle of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:1;&version=9;)
c. Have been wrong when he claimed to be an apostle of Jesus. Acts 19:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:8-9;&version=9;)
Adding point 5j. to further support this.
30j. Under Revelation 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:14;&version=50;) this person had to be:
a. someone who taught it was permissible to eat meat sacrificed to idols.
Colossians 2:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:16-17;&version=9;) 1 Corinthians 10:19-29 (1 Corinthians 8: 3-13) Romans 14:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:2;&version=9;) Romans 14:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:21;&version=9;)
31j. Under Revelation 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:8-9;&version=9;) , speaking to another church in Asia, this person had to be:
a. Someone who claimed to be a Jew; Romans 11:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1;&version=50;) He claims to be a Benjamite, but here: Acts 21:39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2021:39;&version=50;)
He states "I am a Jew from Tarsus", In this context he is speaking of his religious disposition. The religion of the Kingdom of Judah was "Jewish."
AND
b. someone who was not a true Jew.
(the historic record of Saul of Taurus in (Epipanius, Pararion 30.16. 6-9)
According to this Historic record of Jewish Antiquity Paul was circumcised later in life (being a Gentile) in order to try and marry a Judaic Priestess.
32. Jesus told Peter when he is old he would be led by another: John 21:15-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2021:15-18;&version=9;)
32j.a That can be considered prophecy to Peter, along with 1j.
33j. Here is another example of how Paul's teachings differ from the teachings of Jesus.
33j.a. JESUS- "But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, Luke 6:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206:27-28;&version=9;)
also in Matthew 5:43-44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:43-44;&version=9;) "bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."
33j.b. Paul- Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Rather, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Romans 12:19-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012:19-20;&version=9;)
33j.c. Jesus says to do good to your adversaries and pray for them, and makes no mention of "hot coals",
or any other thing that will befall someone you bless this way.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______

Also here is a brief list of the references for some of the thoughts and data with links were available:

Walter Bauer,
ORTHODOXY AND HERESY IN EARLIEST CHRISTIANITY (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Resources/Bauer/bauer_a1.htm)
Christopher Leighton, "Christian Theology After the Shoah," in
Christianity in Jewish Terms (http://www.questia.com/library/book/christianity-in-jewish-terms-by-tikva-frymer-kensky-david-novak-peter-ochs-david-fox-sandmel-michael-a-signer.jsp)
Garth Fowden, "Religious Communities" in Late Antiquity: A Guide to the Postclassical World
Celsus 1:47; 2:13; Commentary on Matthew 13:55
Robert Price (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Price) Deconstructing Jesus
Robert A. Kraft University of PennsylvaniaTHE PSEUDEPIGRAPHA IN CHRISTIANITY (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/other/journals/kraftpub/Pseudepigrapha%20in%20Christianity%20)
(the historic record of Saul of Taurus in (Epiphanius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphanius_of_Salamis), Pararion 30.16. 6-9) (a "Christian" historical writer)
Douglas J Del Tonto Jesus Words Only (http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/)
Historic reference for "This Generation" (http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/christians.html#Manahem) Included many "Christian writers of Jewish Antiquity, including Flavius Josephus. etc.
3 gospel comparision chart (http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/index.htm)
Who wrote Hebrews? (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/hebrews.html)
History of II Peter (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html)
Learn how Lucifer was edited out of the Ezekiel (except the KJV) I understand this is real conspiracy theory stuff, but interesting reading (http://www.angelfire.com/la/prophet1/prayingtoanewgod.html)
All the links included in the points are to the KJV, but on that site you can change them to any of 180 translations in every known language.

I will check back in a day or two..prolly after the holiday to see if anyone has anything to add.

keep shinin'

jerm :cool:

I really hope that with this post you have given common sense and civility a knuckle on the head, jerm.

Days ago the "mission statement" on the homepage of this website was "truthsmacking our way through fields of idiots." No self-respecting Christian who has a working knowledge of the English language can fail to pick up the implications embedded in that little linguistic gem.

Perhaps that tune has been changed. It certainly appears so, for the latest statement on the homepage is now "...always be ready to give a defense...for the hope that is in you." That strikes me as a pretty affirming and comforting mission statement.

Could there have been some sort of impeachment or bloodless coup that occurred amongst the middle management section of the TOL moderators?

What I don't understand is the inability for people claiming to have the Spirit of God in them to simply look at the data and refrain from personal attacks.
Is this a theology forum or a childrens play yard?

You're absolutely correct in recognizing that too many of us posters treat what needs to be a cyber Christian haven into a "play yard" in which the inner or outer child runs amuck, thoughtlessly destroying the environment and racking up as many points and trophies along the way as s/he can!*

__________________________________
*An aside--the only way I can recognize this in others is that I am all-too-familiar with the same trait in myself. This little nugget of pop psychogly was humorously and elegantly expressed in Jesus' aphorism recorded in Matthew 7:3 and Luke 6:41)
___________________________________

So, Jeremy, thank you for your post. It was like a lovely Spring rain.

Myself included, we all need to be reminded that we are all entitled to our [U]opinions, but certainly not entitled to our own facts. I hope you picked up on my personal plea of guilty for my own childishness on this board. It's far too easy for me to be that way.

That said, as the adult I strive to be I admit to being a bit confused so I only ask why you attribute "putting away childish things" to Jesus and not Paul?












It should be obvious that I hate America and want the terrorists to win. Uh, isn't it? ;)

[jeremysdemo]

So, Jeremy, thank you for your post. It was like a lovely Spring rain.
It is hard to tell if this is a sincere statement or sarcasm.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt in this case, since most Christians just want to stick a fork in my eye after posting such "blasphemy" as this.

That said, as the adult I strive to be I admit to being a bit confused so I only ask why you attribute "putting away childish things" to Jesus and not Paul?

Actually is was Jesus who said it: (not in those same words but spiritually speaking)

Matthew 18:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:3;&version=73;)
3He said, `I tell you the truth. If your hearts do not change and become like hearts of children, you will never go into the kingdom of heaven.
AND
Luke 18:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2018:17;&version=73;)
17I tell you the truth. If anyone does not believe in the kingdom of God like a child, he will never go in.'

True, Paul coined the more popular phrase, and had I used any other even the ones of Jesus, it would have needed more explination to be addressed to the situation at hand.
(as you can tell there were enough words in the post already)
Also, is it not the contention of most Christians that Paul spoke for Jesus?
He repeatedly states througout his writtings and sermons that he recieves word/gospel directly from Jesus.
Therefore if he be a true prophet/teacher/apostle, it is Jesus speaking.
Under either premise the WISDOM for such an utterance would be attributed to Jesus;
since He either spoke it in metaphor as a human, (which Paul could have caught wind of) or in "spirit" to Paul as he claims.

Yep, I do have to more careful though, since many would insist Paul was the originator of such wisdom.

Also, I do acknowledge it was a faux pas.

*An aside--the only way I can recognize this in others is that I am all-too-familiar with the same trait in myself. This little nugget of pop psychogly was humorously and elegantly expressed in Jesus' aphorism recorded in Matthew 7:3 and Luke 6:41)
The rest of these text hold relevance as well. For it's not just being advertent of the stick in our own eye, but instructs us that after taking care of our own conundrum with diligence to assist with the dust of the others.



Keep shinin'

jerm :cool:

[Bob Hill]

When we look at the following two passages and lexicon citation, we could call Paul a messenger of Jesus Christ, but the term came to mean “to designate one esp. commissioned.”

Since Epaphroditus was sent by the Philippians with a mission to see Paul, Epaphroditus was their apostle. However, Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ.

There were only a few of these, and Paul was the only apostle that God designated as His apostle for this dispensation. That’s why it said that he was “called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God.

Phi 2:25 Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, but your messenger (apostolon) and the one who ministered to my need;

I edited this dictionary item from Bauer, Gingrich, Danker, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979.
apostolo"J In isolated cases it means ambassador, delegate, messenger, apostoloi of ordinary messengers.

1. ln the NT, aj. can also mean delegate, envoy, messenger (opp. o pemya") J 13:16. Of Epaphroditus, messenger of the Philippians Phil 2:25.—2 Co 8:23, perh. missionary.

2. esp. of God’s messengers w. the prophets Lk 11:49; Rev 18:20; cf. 2:2; Eph 3:5. Even of Christ (w. arciereu") Hb 3:1.

3. But our lit. uses aj. predom. for the apostles, a group of highly honored believers, who had a special function. Even Judaism had an office known as apostle (shaliach). From it the expr. may have been borrowed to designate one esp. commissioned. At first it denoted one who proclaimed the gospel, and was not strictly limited: Paul freq. calls himself an aj: Ro 1:1; 11:13; 1 Co 1:1; 9:1f; 15:9; 2 Co 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1, 11; Tit 1:1. Of Barnabas Ac 14:14. Of James, the Lord’s brother Gal 1:19. Of Peter 1 Pt 1:1; 2 Pt 1:1. Then esp. of the 12 apostles oiJ dwvdeka aj. Mt 10:2; Mk 3:14 v.l.; Lk 22:14; cf. 6:13; 9:10; 17:5; Ac 1:26. Peter and the apostles Ac 5:29. Paul and the apostles 1 Co 4:9; 9:5; 15:7; 2 Co 11:13; 1 Th 2:7; Ac 1:2; 2:42f; 4:33, 35, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 2 Pt 3:2; Jude 17. As a governing board, w. the elders Ac 15:2, 4, 6, 22f; 16:4. As possessors of the most important spiritual gift 1 Co 12:28f. Working miracles 2 Co 12:12. W. prophets Eph 2:20. Christ and the apostles as the foundation of the church Eph 2:20. Paul ironically refers to his opponents (or the original apostles; s. s.v. uJperlivan) as oi uperlian a. the super-apostles 2 Co 11:5; 12:11. The orig. apostles he calls oiJ pro; ejmou` aj. Gal 1:17. M-M.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[jeremysdemo]

3. But our lit. uses aj. predom. for the apostles, a group of highly honored believers, who had a special function. Even Judaism had an office known as apostle (shaliach). From it the expr. may have been borrowed to designate one esp. commissioned. At first it denoted one who proclaimed the gospel, and was not strictly limited: Paul freq. calls himself an aj: Ro 1:1; 11:13; 1 Co 1:1; 9:1f; 15:9; 2 Co 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1, 11; Tit 1:1. Of Barnabas Ac 14:14. Of James, the Lord’s brother Gal 1:19. Of Peter 1 Pt 1:1; 2 Pt 1:1. Then esp. of the 12 apostles oiJ dwvdeka aj. Mt 10:2; Mk 3:14 v.l.; Lk 22:14; cf. 6:13; 9:10; 17:5; Ac 1:26. Peter and the apostles Ac 5:29. Paul and the apostles 1 Co 4:9; 9:5; 15:7; 2 Co 11:13; 1 Th 2:7; Ac 1:2; 2:42f; 4:33, 35, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 2 Pt 3:2; Jude 17. As a governing board, w. the elders Ac 15:2, 4, 6, 22f; 16:4. As possessors of the most important spiritual gift 1 Co 12:28f. Working miracles 2 Co 12:12. W. prophets Eph 2:20. Christ and the apostles as the foundation of the church Eph 2:20. Paul ironically refers to his opponents (or the original apostles; s. s.v. uJperlivan) as oi uperlian a. the super-apostles 2 Co 11:5; 12:11. The orig. apostles he calls oiJ pro; ejmou` aj. Gal 1:17. M-M.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Thank you Bob for this most in depth grouping of passages containing the word apostle.
It will make a most fitting superlative of point 5j. and 15j.
Although I would add there are parts of the grouping that may be inaccurate.
For example it has 2 Pt 3:2 grouped in reference to "Paul and the Apostles" when there is no reference to Paul in that chapter or the previous 2 Peter 2:1-22.
I guess it doesn't matter that 2 Peter (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html) is most likely a pseudepigraph, since many Christians would reject any academically sound assessment of the text, the passage in question should be organized within it's proper catergory which would be:
The Twelve Apostles being spoken of by Luke, or another of the twelve.
Included in this catergory should be Ac 1:2; 2:42f; 4:33, 35, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 2 Pt 3:2; Jude 17.
And a seperate catergory:
Paul talking about the apostles and inlcuding himself as one or talking about false apostles.
1 Co 4:9; 9:5; 15:7; 2 Co 11:13; 1 Th 2:7
The two really are seperate and to combine them in a single catergory would be to infer that one of the 11 appointed by Jesus or the replacement (Matthias) also went on record calling Paul an apostle, which is far from what the factual evidence supports.

keep shinin'

jerm :cool:

[Bob Hill]

jeremysdemo,

Thanks for the correction. My bad!!

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

jeremysdemo,

Jesus did not say that "when he was young he did childish things but when he grew older he had to put away these things." Paul did in 1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Paul said "For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me.

1 Cor 10:32 and 11-1 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. Chapter 11 1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Paul used the name Christ 406 times. Paul loved the Lord Jesus Christ!

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Paul exalted Christ.

Rom 8:31-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Paul believed strongly that we should live for Christ!

2 Cor 5:14,15 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Paul loved the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ, and what He did for us. He wanted us beleivers to understand that by faith in Him, He would dwell in our hearts.

Eph 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height - 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

He showed that the love of Christ was beyond our understanding, it was so great.

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Paul exalted Christ.

1 Cor 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

2 Cor 1:19-22 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us - by me, Silvanus, and Timothy - was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes. 20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Paul exalted the Lord Jesus Christ, as he should.

Bob Hill

[jeremysdemo]

jeremysdemo,

Jesus did not say that "when he was young he did childish things but when he grew older he had to put away these things." Paul did in 1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Bob Hill
One would have only had to read the previous page to know that I addressed this already.



Actually is was Jesus who said it: (not in those same words but spiritually speaking)

Matthew 18:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:3;&version=73;)
3He said, `I tell you the truth. If your hearts do not change and become like hearts of children, you will never go into the kingdom of heaven.
AND
Luke 18:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2018:17;&version=73;)
17I tell you the truth. If anyone does not believe in the kingdom of God like a child, he will never go in.'
True, Paul coined the more popular phrase, and had I used any other even the ones of Jesus, it would have needed more explination to be addressed to the situation at hand.
(as you can tell there were enough words in the post already)
Also, is it not the contention of most Christians that Paul spoke for Jesus?
He repeatedly states througout his writtings and sermons that he recieves word/gospel directly from Jesus.
Therefore if he be a true prophet/teacher/apostle, it is Jesus speaking.
Under either premise the WISDOM for such an utterance would be attributed to Jesus;
since He either spoke it in metaphor as a human, (which Paul could have caught wind of) or in "spirit" to Paul as he claims.

Yep, I do have to more careful though, since many would insist Paul was the originator of such wisdom.

Also, I do acknowledge it was a faux pas.
Paul said "For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me.

1 Cor 10:32 and 11-1 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. Chapter 11 1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Bob Hill
Paul used the name Christ 406 times. Paul loved the Lord Jesus Christ!

Bob Hill


Paul exalted Christ.

Rom 8:31-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Bob Hill


Paul loved the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ, and what He did for us. He wanted us beleivers to understand that by faith in Him, He would dwell in our hearts.

Eph 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height - 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

He showed that the love of Christ was beyond our understanding, it was so great.

Bob Hill


2 Cor 1:19-22 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us - by me, Silvanus, and Timothy - was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes. 20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Paul exalted the Lord Jesus Christ, as he should.

Bob Hill

Surely there is a place in heaven for those who hold men in such high regard.
Do any of these statement show an err in any of the 33 points?
BTW, David Coresh did all the things you praise Paul for doing...and we all know how that turned out. including saying the name of Christ many times.

Perhaps it would be better to look through the data and find any errors rather than try and exalt someone based on personal opinion and church doctrin.

He showed that the love of Christ was beyond our understanding, it was so great.

Disagree,
Jesus says, "Suffer the little children not to come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"
If it were as complicated and "beyond" our understanding as you and Paul proclaim surely Jesus would have concered.
He used parables not because His teachings were too complicated but for the condition of the heart to which they were spoken.

keep shinin'

jerm :)

[jeremysdemo]

The list of Points has been modified per the input of other groups.

As in my original post I encourage people to look at the data and try to find err in it, even opinionated speculation is welcome. But if people could direct their responces to the points rather than there lofty opinions of Paul, that would prove to be more fruitful at least where this thesis is concerned.
I mean I hold Jimmy Carter in the highest regard, but if someone presented data that incriminates him, it would be more wise to look at the data objectionally than to continually post my opinion of him.


I will speak candidly here, if not one person is able to respond to a point in the manner in which I laid out in my first post I doubt I will continue moving forward with this group.
There are many groups, both Christian and skeptic, that are bearing fruit with this thesis; and I simply don't have time to put into groups who are not showing interest in the data, and or discussing it's accuracy or validity.
Perhaps I came to the wrong place for discussing "theology" related topics.
The name of this forum certainly led me to believe there would be those here interested in such things.
However, I fail to see how puffing up someone who is already considered by many a Saint, lends itself to good scholarship or accurate theology.
I. Thesis: Jesus warned people many would come and say they are Him within the generation He spoke to.
If we look at the accounts in the New Testament there may be evidence that such things did happen.
Taking into account that prophecy and the warnings in the OT, we proceed to gather the data.
This data may prove damaging to some of the founders of Christianity.
But having FAITH in JESUS and His word we abandon any fondness for these, and rely on His Spirit,
and His words to for truth.

II. The prophecies and warnings
A. Jesus warned Peter, James, John and Andrew privately that someone would come and
say they were Him;
Mark 13:3-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:3-6&version=9;) “Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name
saying 'I am He' and will deceive many.” 1. Jesus makes no exceptions to be included in this prophecy concerning those who come and say ‘I am He’. a. Acts 9:1-7 (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&x=0&y=0&passage=Acts+9%3A1-7;)2. In that same chapter He also made many public prophecies. 3. At the end of this chapter Jesus clearly says
“Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. “ Mark 13:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:30;&version=9;)a. That puts all these prophecies within that generation. 4.There is no record of a prophecy attributed to Paul in the Bible;
a. That is anything that he predicted that later happened which
could only have been known by the Spirit of God.
(outside of what Jesus predicted beforehand)
eg. Mark 13:14 Mark 13:27 being reiterated here 1 Thessalonians 4:17 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 b. Paul instructs others within the churches on prophecy. 1 Corinthians 14:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014:3-5;&version=9;)5. According to the words of Jesus one can cast out demons in His name and still not get into heaven. a. Matthew 7:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:21-23;&version=9;)Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord' did we not prophecy in your name,
and in your name drive out demons and perform miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers! b. And if the Lord knows you not, you could have a huge
ministry and even become a Saint by mans standards
but that does not guarantee you are His prophet or His servant.6. Another warning of Jesus depicting how things are and will be.a. Parable of the Weeds, Matthew 13:36-43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2013:36-43%20;&version=9;) 7. A warning in Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:1-5;&version=9;) about the Lord allowing false teachers to test us to find out “wether we Love Him with all our heart and all our soul.” a. This passage also talks about one who tells us to “follow other Gods.” I. That would include any God that contradicts the Law and Prophets, or JesusB. Jesus prophecies over Peter 1. Matthew 16:18 a. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 2. Jesus told Peter when he is old he would be led by another:John 21:15-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2021:15-18;&version=9;)3. II. A. 4. Peter recieves a dream by the Spirit.a. Acts 10:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&x=0&y=0&passage=Acts+10%3A13-15;) 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.b. Peter agreed this was a prophecy to fortel the including of the Gentiles as he recants and confirms that interpretation here: Acts 11:15-16I. 15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

III. The accounts of “appearances” of one who came and said they were Jesus. A. The appearance to John and the others 1.Luke 24:36-43 and John 20:19. a. it should be noted that there were several witnesses who all heard and saw the same thing.b. among these were apostles appointed by Jesus. B. The appearance to Paul. 1.Acts 9:1-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:1-7;&version=9;) a. it should be noted there was only one witness claiming Jesus came to them, beingPaul.
b. the others who were with him saw nothing but heard a voiceC. Other appearances 1.Matthew 28:16-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:16-20;&version=9;)and
Mark 16:9 -14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%20Mark%2016:9-14;&version=9;)and
Luke 24:13-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%20%20Luke%2024:13-36&version=9;)andJohn 20:16-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:16-30;&version=9;)

IV. Apostleship
A. 12 Appointed by Jesus 1. In all three of these accounts Luke 6:12-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206:12-19;&version=9;)and
Matthew 10:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:1-5;&version=9;)and
Mark 3:13-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%203:13-19;&version=9;)
Mark 3:13-19 2. Jesus on the twelve apostles a. Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019:28;&version=9) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me,
in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 3. When Judas dies it is necessary to appoint areplacementa. the group prayed, and then chose two who were witness to the full ministry of Christ,
and His resurrection. The lot falling on Matthias. Acts 1:15-27 (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&x=0&y=0&passage=Acts+1%3A15-27;)
4. Only 12 Apostles mentioned in Revelations a. Revelation 21:14
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations,
and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. “ B. False apostles 1. Revelations on false apostles a. Revelation 2:2 “I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience,
and how thou canst not bear them which are evil:
and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: “
b. In a passage written 20-30 years after Paul’s death in Revelations the Ephesians are applauded for not listening to false apostles teaching that it was acceptable to eat meat sacrificed to idols. Revelations 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelations%202:14;&version=9;)c. False apostles who were put on trial at an Ephesians churchI.Revelation 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:2;&version=50;) For saying they were apostles but by their teachings were not II.Revelation 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:8-9;&version=9;)For saying they were Jewish but were not2. The false apostles in these passages have to: a. Teach it was permissible to I. Eat meats sacrificed to idols .Colossians 2:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:16-17;&version=9;)
1 Corinthians 8:3-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%208:3-13;&version=9;) 1 Corinthians 10:19-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2010:19-29;&version=9;) Romans 14:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:21;&version=9;)
B. Peter on that subject as he spoke in the presence of Paul.1. Acts 15:28 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols , from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well II. not observe the SabbathRomans 14:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:5;&version=9;)Colossians 2:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:16-17;&version=9;)b. Have been put on trial by the Ephesians church I. This account written by Luke places Paul in that town Acts 19:1 and the conflict at that church:Acts 19:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:1;&version=9;)II. The Epistle of James is believed to be an account of a trail A. It is laid out in Christian-Judaic trial format typical of that era, but who it is about is never defined III. Paul account of an event at an Ephesians church A. 2 Corinthians 1:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%201:8-9;&version=9;) and again to Timothy in this letter 2 Timothy 1:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%201:15;&version=9;)
B. There is also records of this in Jewish Antiquity accounts : (Ebionites’ Homily 17 in the Clementine Homilies and the Damascus Document among the Dead Sea Scrolls) c. Have claimed to be a Jew but was not
I.Romans 11:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1;&version=50;) Paul claims to be a Benjamite, but here: Acts 21:39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2021:39;&version=50;) He states "I am a Jew from Tarsus", In this context he is speaking of his religious disposition. The religion of the Kingdom of Judah was "Jewish".II. (the historic record of Saul of Taurus in (Epipanius, Pararion 30.16. 6-9) A. According to this Historic record of Jewish Antiquity Paul was circumcised later in life (being a Gentile) in order to try and marry a Judaic Priestess.d. have told the Ephesians he was an apostle but been found to not be one according to their false teachings
I. Ephesians1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:1;&version=50;)
C. Paul’s apostleship.1. claimed to have been awarded by Jesus. 1 Cor 15:3-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%2015:3-8;&version=9;) Acts 19:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:8-9;&version=9;)a. another account of God speaking in the prophetic I. the Burning Bush, Exodus 3:1-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%203:1-22;&version=9;) Exodus 4:1-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%204:1-17;&version=9;)A. one may notice there is enough details about the future to fill two chapters.II. Paul’s accountA. Acts 9:1-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:1-9;&version=9;) the voice says nothing more than,
"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do". 2. Out of 22 times Paul is referred to as an apostle in the NT only twice was it by someone other than himself; both times by Luke. Acts 14:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2014:4;&version=9;)Acts 14:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2014:14;&version=9;)3. None of the twelve disciples/apostles appointed by Jesus ever go on record naming Paul an apostle in the Bible, or any other known texts of that era. 4. Paul claims he was chosen by Jesus to give the gospel to the Gentiles.a. Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. D. Peters Apostleship1. Appointed by Jesus accounts Luke 6:12-19 and Matthew10:1-5 and Mark 3:13-19 a. upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it 2. Peter being the one to initiate the coming of of the Gentilesa. 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

V. Satan’s MO.
A. To distort the word of the Lord. 1. in the Garden of Eden with Eve from the very first words he utter to man a.Genesis 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:1;&version=9;)2. to the temptation of Jesus b.Luke 4:9-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%204:9-12;&version=9;)
Matthew 4:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:6;&version=9;) B. Paul’s definition of Satan 1. As an angel of light 2 Corinthians 11:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011:14;&version=9;)C. OT definitions of Satan1.Ezekiel 28:12-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2028:12-15;&version=9;)
Isaiah 14:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014:12-14;&version=9;)D.Devil Historic Devil (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/)

IV. The Law, Prophets and Writings
A. The writings of the Jews were classified into three distinct categories The Law, The Prophets, and Writings 1.God revealed the Law of Moses, that it terms should be “for ever and for all generations”
Exodus 27:21 Exodus 30:21 Leviticus 6:18 ;7:36 ; 10:9 ; 17:7 ; 23:14,21,41 ; 24:3 Numbers 10:18 ; 15:15 a. This was to be included in a covenant expressly made with the seed of Israel, and did not include Ishmael or his seed. Genesis 17:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:7;&version=9;)b. The Original Covenant was to continue though out the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:7;&version=9;) B. The Law and the Prophets was considered the word of God, while Writings were considered holy but not direct word of God 1. Jesus affirmed the validity of The Law and The Prophets, and also included Psalms in this passage.Luke 24:44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:44;&version=9;) 2. Jesus says “I did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets” Matthew 5:17-18 3. Any writing in the NT era must first and foremost satisfy the criteria of Jeremiah 31:31-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2031:31-36;&version=9;) Isaia
h 8:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%208:20;&version=9;) and Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:1-5;&version=9;)to be considered scripture a. None of the writings of the twelve apostles in 1 John, 2 John, 3, John, or 1 Peter detract from the prophecy of 2 or fail to meet this criteria for scripture
b. The same can be said for the writings of James and Jude c. (History of II Peter is considered a pseudepigraph and per that possibility could not be included in this point)

VII. What separates Paul’s teachings from that of Jesus and the OT.
A. Paul on the validity of the Law for both Jew and gentile 1.Ephesians 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:15;&version=9;) Colossians 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:14;&version=9;) 2 Corinthians 3:11-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%203:11-17;&version=9;) Romans 7:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:13;&version=9;) Galatians 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:19;&version=9;)a. Jesus also teaches if you refuse to repent from sin by cutting off body parts ensnaring you will perish whole.Mark 9:42-48 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:42-48;&version=9;)
Along with may other passages that He specifically tells people to follow keep commandments I. Keeping the Sabbath being one of those commandmentsb. Paul describes the Law as being fulfilled in one sentence.
Galatians 5:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:14%20%20;&version=9;)14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. I. JESUS- definition of “all the LAW”.
Matthew 22:36-39
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 2. Paul says the angels gave the Law to MosesGalatians 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:19;&version=9;)a. Hebrew scripture concerning where the Law came fromExodus 20:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:1;&version=9;) “and God spoke all these words:” b. Paul is the only one in the Bible to refer to the Original Covenant as the Old Covenant. 2 Corinthians 3:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%203:14;&version=9;)B. Paul on marriage 1. Paul says if husband is non-Christian the wife is free to remarry after divorce 1 Corinthians 7:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%207:15;&version=9;) "such a brother or sister is not in bondage in such cases such casesa. Jesus taught if a husband unjustifiably divorces a wife and she remarries,
she commits adultery with her new husband. Matthew 5:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:32;&version=9;) C. Paul on giving people the title of “teacher” an office he created in the church 1.1 Corinthians 12:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:28;&version=9;) a. Jesus prohibited calling any man on earth your teacher, Matthew 23:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023:8;&version=9;) b. The two Greek words for teacher are different, but both mean teacher in English D. Paul on how we are saved 1. Paul teaches we are saved by grace not by works.Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9;&version=9;)a. Jesus taught that faith alone doesn’t save you. He says if you call Him Lord but lack works of charity you won’t be recognized. Matthew 25:30-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%20Matthew%2025:30-46;&version=9;)b. Jesus also says that works have a significance in these two passages:
John 8:39 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 14:12 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father 2.According to Paul you are saved if you have two beliefs: Jesus is Lord, and His resurrection.Romans 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:4;&version=9;) E. Paul on blessing our enemies
1. Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Rather, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Romans 12:19-20
a. JESUS- "But to you who hear I say, love your enemies,
do good to those who hate you, Luke 6:27-28
also in Matthew 5:43-44 "bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." I. There is no mention of “hot coals” or anything other detrimental thing that will occur when we bless those whom are our enemies. F. Paul on swearing 1.Galatians 1:20 (believed by many Christians to be written by Paul)
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. a. JESUS- Matthew 5:33-37
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. G. Paul on righteousness 1.Romans 3:10-12 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: a. This is the passage he uses to support his teaching Psalm 14:1-3
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt,
they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. I. This passage is speaking of a "fool" who says there is no God--an atheist.
A. To apply this across the board to everyone who believes in God is a improper use of the OT scripture b. OT on righteousness I. Genesis 7:1
And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Exodus 23:7-8 7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked. 8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous. Deuteronomy 25:1
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
2 Samuel 4:11 11 How much more, when wicked men have slain a righteous person in his own house upon his bed? shall I not therefore now require his blood of your hand, and take you away from the earth? H. (IV.B.2.a.I.) could also be included as Pauls teachings going against the OT, along with (IV.B.2.a.II.)




keep shinin' Shalom, and be blessed in His name--Jesus Christ.

jerm :)

[Bob Hill]

When we study the Word of God, we see that Christ was sent to Israel when He was on the earth.

When Christ ascended into heaven after He died on the cross for the sins of the world, He had given marching orders to the Eleven apostles. The Eleven were in a different dispensation than we are in. That was not the “Dispensation of Grace”, which we are under. It was the dispensation when the Kingdom was Proclaimed by John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus Christ. This could also be called the dispensation of circumcision, except Abraham was circumcised about 1,500 BC.

We are in the Dispensation of Grace. Ephesians 3:1-6 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in

Salvation in the Dispensation of Circumcision was dependant on believing and keeping the commandments. When we are saved in the “Dispensation of Grace”, we must trust in God, that Christ died for our sins.

Notice what Christ said to the “woman of Canaan” in Mat 15:21-24. Mat 15:21-24 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Doing good works based on belief were necessary for salvation for that dispensation. Notice how that is emphasized again in Mat 19:16-22: Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “’You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

It was the same thing in Mark 10. Mark 10:17-19 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” 18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’”

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

God raised up the Apostle Paul in this new Dispensation of Grace. So, in contrast to the previous dispensatoins, in the Dispensation of Grace, works are not necessary for us to be saved. They are good to do, and God wants us to do them, but salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior.

That means God’s program for us today is different from all His previous programs and future programs.

We see how unique God’s program for us is when we read about Paul’s commission in Eph 3:1-9: “For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gracious gift of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the untraceable riches of Christ, 9 and make all see what is the dispensation (The reading here is attested by the Majority text and the Critical text. oikonomia) of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

God inspired Paul to repeat this explanation in Col 1:25-27: [The church]of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill [to complete, fill] the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To whom God willed to make known what are the glorious riches of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.

This means that prophecies made before Paul was saved, from Genesis to Acts nine, have nothing to do with this dispensation. Why? Because this dispensation is called the dispensation of the mystery in Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

This was unique!!

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Our Dispensation of Grace/mystery was never revealed before God gave it to Paul.
Rom 16:25,26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret in age times 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.

It also means that nothing was known about the church which is the body of Christ before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. Because it was a mystery – a secret.

Things changed drastically when the Dispensation of Grace/mystery started. Here are the big differences that took place in this Dispensation of Grace.

Salvation.
We are justified by faith. Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

This Salvation. was in contrast to The Circumcision Gospel
Again, they were justified by faith plus works.
Jam 2:11,12,14,20,21,24,25 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

Safe in Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

If you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, you certainly wouldn't believe that Paul was God's apostle to the Gentiles and also the Jews.

Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Our security is another big difference between the Dispensation of the Grace/Mystery and the dispensation when the Kingdom was Proclaimed by John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus Christ. We are sealed and secure. They weren’t.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption.

They had to endure under circumcision.
Mat 24:9-14 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

I praise the Lord that I’m saved and sealed,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

There are some Big Differences between our Dispensation of Grace and the dispensation when circumcision was mandatory. The most striking difference is our eternal security compared to their Abiding in Me, Christ.

John 15:1-12 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

Baptism is another difference. We, in the Dispensation of Grace, don’t have to be baptized in water to be saved. All we have to do is believe.
Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

They had to be baptized.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
1 Pe 3:19-21 [Christ] went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us – baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

The purpose of the mystery is love.
1 Ti 1:3-5 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia - remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment charge is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.
2 Ti 1:12-14 I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep my deposit until that Day. 13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.14 Keep that good thing which was committed to you the good deposit, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[Bob Hill]

The Big Difference is life changing and shows us in this dispensation, salvation is all of God’s grace and our belief.

The thing that will happen if people mix the two gospels, the gospel of grace and the gospel of the circumcision, is confusion, and on this thread no regard for the Bible that God inspired.

Those who try to throw out Paul’s epistles will find so many contradictions in the Bible they will throw up their hands in frustration. That is only because they do not understand that God dealt with man differently in different dispensations.

Again, it is not necessary to leave our house and sell our possessions. We are saved by God’s grace, our faith in what God said – that Christ died for our sins, and that’s all. The Holy Spirit seals us right when we trust in Christ as our Savior. We cannot lose our salvation once we believe in Christ as our Savior.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

[jeremysdemo]

When we study the Word of God, we see that Christ was sent to Israel when He was on the earth.

When Christ ascended into heaven after He died on the cross for the sins of the world, He had given marching orders to the Eleven apostles. The Eleven were in a different dispensation than we are in. That was not the “Dispensation of Grace”, which we are under. It was the dispensation when the Kingdom was Proclaimed by John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus Christ. This could also be called the dispensation of circumcision, except Abraham was circumcised about 1,500 BC.

We are in the Dispensation of Grace. Ephesians 3:1-6 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in

Salvation in the Dispensation of Circumcision was dependant on believing and keeping the commandments. When we are saved in the “Dispensation of Grace”, we must trust in God, that Christ died for our sins.

Notice what Christ said to the “woman of Canaan” in Mat 15:21-24. Mat 15:21-24 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Doing good works based on belief were necessary for salvation for that dispensation. Notice how that is emphasized again in Mat 19:16-22: Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “’You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

It was the same thing in Mark 10. Mark 10:17-19 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” 18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’”

In Christ,
Bob Hill


Thank you Bob for returning to the conversation.
It takes patience to deal with topics like these.
I will start out by saying, I don't believe in concepts of men like, the Rapture, Purgatory, Dispensationalism.etc. the list is far to large to mention.
Trying to work with the concepts of men, and backwards relating them to the words of Jesus is reverse theology. I just chose to work another way. From the beginning forward.

BTW Peter was the first to minister the Spirit to the Gentile, not Paul.
Peter was warned by Jesus he would be led by another.

God raised up the Apostle Paul in this new Dispensation of Grace. So, in contrast to the previous dispensatoins, in the Dispensation of Grace, works are not necessary for us to be saved. They are good to do, and God wants us to do them, but salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior.

That means God’s program for us today is different from all His previous programs and future programs.
Jesus never said any of that, and I follow Him, not men.
Any 'different programs' were made by men, God does not change.
God raised up the Apostle Paul in this new Dispensation of Grace
This is you opinion, and I can respect that. However I beleive in Jesus, and anything anyone says who claims to be sent by God, must first line up with His word(meaning the OT), and that of His Son.
Our Dispensation of Grace/mystery was never revealed before God gave it to Paul.
Again an opinion.
Jesus reavealed all that was needed to be revealed in His life.
If someone wants to think that God himself can walk among men, and not say all that was needed for their salvation, that is their peroggative. Their water will seek whatever depths it needs to be level.

Salvation.
We are justified by faith. Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Another concept of men. Jesus never spoke such words., I follow Him, and His WAY.
The Big Difference is life changing and shows us in this dispensation, salvation is all of God’s grace and our belief.

The thing that will happen if people mix the two gospels, the gospel of grace and the gospel of the circumcision, is confusion, and on this thread no regard for the Bible that God inspired.

Those who try to throw out Paul’s epistles will find so many contradictions in the Bible they will throw up their hands in frustration. That is only because they do not understand that God dealt with man differently in different dispensations.


Actually I don't throw out Paul's epistles they are a great demontration for us, by God, and proof of His prophetic word. I believe I have demonstrated that in the points.
However there are a lot less contradictions one would have to deal with without trying to reconcile them, so your statement is sort of off.


If you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, you certainly wouldn't believe that Paul was God's apostle to the Gentiles and also the Jews.

Bob Hill
I never said the Bible wasn't the word of God. There are a lot of words in it. Some of God, some of men. I have no faith in men, only God, therefore I trust in His Spirit to seperate the two.
Beside the editing of the different sects of priest in the OT, Kings, Dueteronomy, etc, concerning sacriments it is mostly sound.
The Ten Commandments being the most "untampered" with.
The NT, is quiet a different story and should be read with the education of who wrote it and when, not as an inerrant word of God.
I read these words based on the creditabilty of the witnesses.
I am more interested in understanding What JESUS really said, rather than believing every persons "very different" account of it.
Unless Jesus was a tranqiliquist, with a puppet on His leg, he only SPOKE one set of words at a time. Not the 3 or four different sets we have.
Determining those words, and how to use them effectively to aid others, takes much patience and supplication.
There are some Big Differences between our Dispensation of Grace and the dispensation when circumcision was mandatory. The most striking difference is our eternal security compared to their Abiding in Me, Christ.

John 15:1-12 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
Let me ask you this Bob. When you build a house do you start the the roof?
And then look to see of the foundation was ever built to support it afterwards?
This is the most concrete stone put forward yet, as far as something that can be placed as a first stone of a foundation.
I think having more OT stones to support this one will make for a firm foundation to build on.
I would like to note that this passage has no synopsis. Meaning it is the only account (within the four Gospels) of these words being spoken.
Not that that discredits it in any way. Only that we do not have any other reference within the Bible to confirm the accuracy of the account. This Gospel was steeped in oral tradition, and it is safe to say that things could have been added within that tradition.
However for the sake of argument, and since it is the only words of Jesus presented by Bob, we will use it on the premise that it is a true account of what Jesus said.
I would like to bring in the missing verse between 6-10 to illustrate.

You will notice the word "Abide" is spoken 8 times.

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me , and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

The context of those verses provides us with a lot of light as to what is required of us by GOD for our eternal salvation.
There is no mention of 'grace' or a the 'free ride' many Christians associate with dispensationalism.
He is very explicited about this need to "Abide in Him".
He also says:
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Matt 7:13-14
The theological meaning of ABIDE is to dwell within. Jesus would come and dwell in us and we likewise in Him. So as long as we do what Jesus requests of us then we are on the path to the narrow gate to salvation. So to assure that we are on right path, Jesus has commanded that we must ABIDE in Him.
What is required in order to have Jesus ABIDE in us and we in Him?
By accepting Him as our own personal Lord and Savior? HE never said that.
By the grace of GOD only? HE never spoke such.
By faith in GOD alone? He says no such thing EVER in His entire life and ministry.
If He commanded that we must do something, then doesn't it stand to reason that He would also tell us how to do it?
Jesus was very clear in what we must do in order to have Him ABIDE in us and we in Him.

As He says in the same book to the same person.
Again, no synopsis, but this is common with this Gospel. Again for the sake of this discussion we will agree it to be said by Jesus, and an entirely accurate representation of what was said.
To not do so would only leave room for tangents of a acedemic nature.
also taking it as a given that Jesus said on occasion to keep the commandments, and "enter into life", so that would be a given here.

John 6:53-57:
53 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you (the taken away branch); 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 HE WHO EATS MY FLESH AND DRINKS MY BLOOD ABIDES IN ME, AND I IN HIM. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me."

So it would seem He gave us the instructional information to know how to "ABIDE in HIM".
The body lives because it receives real food sustenance. Starve the body and it will die.
Just as the body needs real sustenance, so does the soul, else it will not bear fruit.
The soul lives by real Divine sustenance, the true presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.
The word "Eucharist" comes from the Greek noun εὐχαριστία (transliterated, "eucharistia"), meaning thanksgiving.[1]
Although most Christians classify the Eucharist as a sacrament, many Protestants avoid the term sacrament, preferring ordinance.
In these traditions, the ceremony is seen not as a specific channel of divine grace but as an expression of faith and obedience of the Christian community.
Getting away from the religious aspect and ritual connected to the word let's focus on what it would have meant to those whom it was spoken to, mainly the "thanksgiving" aspect of the original Greek noun, eucharistia.
We must remain in a state of Thanksgiving, regardless of our circumstances in life.