Was Paul a false apostle? Scripture reveals he preached "another" gospel:

[MichaelEden]

"I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them to be false." Revelation 2:2 (NIV)

"Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" Matthew 16:12 (KJV)


THE 'LEAVEN' OF THE APOSTLE PAUL:


Was the apostle Paul a false prophet? Did Paul preach 'another' gospel than that of Jesus Christ? Why wasn't Paul chosen as one of the original twelve, or chosen to replace the apostle that betrayed Christ? Why did Paul's 'conversion' result in blindness, when Christ performed miracles of restoring sight to many in the gospels? Why does Paul brazenly admit to things like:

(stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8

(boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

(speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17

(trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16


We've been warned before about "devils in disguise" as "angels of light"... Here is a scriptural look into the mind of a deceiver - via the pages of Corinthians I and II. The devil's in the details:


(Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/16



(Paul decides to pass judgment on someone)

"And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just if I were present." I Cor 5:3



(Paul decides to consult with Satan, not Jesus, concerning the man he passed judgment on)

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." I Cor 5:5


(Paul thinks he is better than anyone else)

"I wish that all men were as I am." I Cor 7:7



(Paul admits to injecting his own opinions into scripture)

"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):" I Cor 7:12



(Paul, who is single, gives faulty advice on marriage)

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am" I Cor 7:8

"Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." I Cor 7:27



(Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)

"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29



(Paul advocates staying the same and not progressing forward)

"Each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him." I Cor 7:20



(What does Paul have against marriage?)

"An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:" I Cor 7:34

"But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please her husband." I Cor 7:34



(strange talk)

"In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is - and I think that I too have the spirit of God." I Cor 7:40



(Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)

"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

"If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11



(Paul loves the sin of pride)

"I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast." I Cor 9:15



(Paul decrees that a hairstyle can keep you from being a good Christian)

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a discrace to him," I Cor 11:14



(Paul even passes judgment on growling stomachs)

"If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." I Cor 11:34



(Paul curses an entire people who may not have heard Jesus' gospel)

"If anyone does not love the lord - a curse be on him."



PAUL DISTORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD:



Here is but one time that Paul mis-quoted scripture. In II Cor 6:2 Paul asserts that God said something that God didn't:

For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of my salvation I helped you." II Cor 6:2

What Isaiah 49:8 REALLY says is:

This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances," Isaiah 49:8

Why did Paul lie, distort scripture? And how would any believer defend this as something "O.K."?



So that no one will accuse me of taking anything out of context - I will include surrounding passages in addition to referencing the chapter number and passage numbers for this next example:


"Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

---surrounding passages---

"In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool." II Cor 11:17

"You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!" II Cor 11:19


Here is Paul not only boasting as "the world does" - but expressing a "self-confident" attitude in this boasting! And then, shockingly, Paul confesses that what he says is not coming from the Lord. (who then is it coming from?) Then Paul admits that he is talking "as a fool"

A boasting, self-confident, self-proclaimed foolish talker who admits that he is not speaking godly wisdom?




II CORINHTIANS BOASTING, DECEPTION, AND FOOLISHNESS:


(Paul causes the Corinthians pain and hurt on several instances)

"So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you." II Cor 2:1

"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while." II Cor 7:8



(Paul shows envy of other apostles, false humility, a need for congratulation, and more foolish talk)

"I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the 'super-apostles', even though I am nothing." II Cor 12:11



(Paul admits that Satan is in him - tormenting him)

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7



(Paul resorts to sneaky, under-handed tactics - WWJD?)

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal whith us in the things they boast about." II Cor 11:12



(Nothing seems to stop Paul from his boasting)

"I must go on boasting." II Cor 12:1



(Paul's threat to punish - what happened to the love of Christ?)

"On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others," II Cor 13:2 B


Is this who founded the Christian religion? A man who admits that Satan is in him tormenting him? Again - what about this self-confession of demon possession:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7


Are Christians really that quick to accept the teachings of a man who openly admits that a messenger of Satan (demon) is tormenting him...?

Especially when Jesus' works/miracles included healing the demon-possesed and casting out demons?

Do you not think that Jesus would have wanted to 'cleanse' or heal the "supposed" apostle to the gentiles? Couple this with the fact that Paul's initial "supposed" contact with Jesus resulted in blindness?

What if your preacher got up in your pulpit this Sunday, and then proceeded to tell you that a messenger from Satan resided in him... then why would you allow him to continue to preach the Word?

Looking forward to some wonderful insight, and discussion as we discern the Truth together.

Michael111

[JosephofMessiah]

Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.


Vs.


Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Note the bold print.

This shows an exceedingly different approach to who the Son of Man / Messiah is under the doctrine of Christ Yeshua, and the letters of the gospels.

[Granite]

I wonder what Eden's solution would be to his earth-shattering discovery. I guess we can toss out the epistles (and Hebrews, since it may have been written by Paul) and much of Acts.

If the past sins of the apostles still condemn them after they were converted, I guess Peter's work should be junked too, considering his denial of Christ.

Nothing in the epistles declares anything contrary to the gospel. Either Eden is a fool, or just someone with too much time on his hands trying to stir up trouble.

granite

[Turbo]

Peter called Paul's epistles inspired Sciptures when he warned about people who distort Paul's message:and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 15-16 (NKJV)

[prodigalson]

No, Paul was not a false Apostle. In fact, he might be the greatest one.

[shilohproject]

Paul does certainly stir the pot, though. Often in a way which creates real tension for other sections of scripture. I belive the are resolvable, though, by a reasonable, non-literalistic reading.:cool:

[Shaun]

This post made me chuckle.

Shaun
oh, the eisegeses people weave

[Kronus]

I dare say if we had a lifetime collection of some of the words and ideas that came out of your mouth, Michael Eden we could paste them together in a similar pattern and make you out to be either:

a. a madman full of selfishness and loathing for others

b. a genius on the brink of bringing forth a long sought solution to life's major problems

c. a average Joe with not much to say of any consequence whatosever

d. a nuclear physicist good at science but poor in social skills

e. a unemployed janitor with a mind like a steel trap but breath like bear scat

Take your pick.

What's your favorite interpretation?

[Crow]

Originally posted by Shaun
This post made me chuckle.

Shaun
oh, the eisegeses people weave

Mikey wrote one of the best unintentionally funny posts I have ever read. ROTFLMBO! I'm going to save it and pass it around. :chuckle:

[BillyBob]

I wonder which church is preaching this stuff?

[prodigalson]

Originally posted by Crow
Mikey wrote one of the best unintentionally funny posts I have ever read. ROTFLMBO! I'm going to save it and pass it around. :chuckle:

I think I should go back and actually read the post now.

[MichaelEden]

Revelation Chapter 2 starts out:

"UNTO the angel of the church of Ephesus write;" Rev 2:1

and then verse 2 states:

"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil; and thou has tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

WHAT'S THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE CHURCH OF EPHESUS AND REVELATION 2:1?

You guessed it... THE APOSTLE PAUL. He was the self-proclaimed apostle that founded the church of Ephesus. He was a liar, and was not an apostle of Jesus. He was counterfeit.

And there are 14 epistles full of evidence of misquoting scripture, boasting, not speaking on behalf of the Lord, strange doctrines, opinion presented as truth, envy, false humility, and some particularly venemous rants - such as the following:

(Paul advocates castration for those who disagree with his doctrine on circumcision)

"Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Gal 5:11/12

Paul's tasteless rant aimed at those of the circumcision - he wants some to just go ahead and cut it all off...? Why do people defending the devil when he exposes HIMSELF as that via the scripture? And for those who feel that I am taking something 'out of context'...

Whether these passages were the only thing on a page - or whether they appear in the bulk of a page - they are still 'evil leaven'. And if it was just one verse that was questionable - that would be one thing... But it's verse after verse after verse.

It's amazing how intensely people defend Paul even knowing that Paul was not the Messiah, he did not travel with Jesus and the other apostles, and Paul can do NOTHING for them on Judgment Day. But still they cling to Paul as some sort of 'Hero' or 'exalted apostle' even referring to him the 'greatest apostle' -

The deception is high in these end-times

Michael111

[Is it possible?]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
"I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them to be false." Revelation 2:2 (NIV)

"Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" Matthew 16:12 (KJV)


THE 'LEAVEN' OF THE APOSTLE PAUL:


Was the apostle Paul a false prophet? Did Paul preach 'another' gospel than that of Jesus Christ? Why wasn't Paul chosen as one of the original twelve, or chosen to replace the apostle that betrayed Christ? Why did Paul's 'conversion' result in blindness, when Christ performed miracles of restoring sight to many in the gospels? Why does Paul brazenly admit to things like:

(stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8

(boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

(speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17

(trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16


We've been warned before about "devils in disguise" as "angels of light"... Here is a scriptural look into the mind of a deceiver - via the pages of Corinthians I and II. The devil's in the details:


(Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/16



(Paul decides to pass judgment on someone)

"And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just if I were present." I Cor 5:3



(Paul decides to consult with Satan, not Jesus, concerning the man he passed judgment on)

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." I Cor 5:5


(Paul thinks he is better than anyone else)

"I wish that all men were as I am." I Cor 7:7



(Paul admits to injecting his own opinions into scripture)

"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):" I Cor 7:12



(Paul, who is single, gives faulty advice on marriage)

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am" I Cor 7:8

"Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." I Cor 7:27



(Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)

"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29



(Paul advocates staying the same and not progressing forward)

"Each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him." I Cor 7:20



(What does Paul have against marriage?)

"An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:" I Cor 7:34

"But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please her husband." I Cor 7:34



(strange talk)

"In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is - and I think that I too have the spirit of God." I Cor 7:40



(Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)

"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

"If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11



(Paul loves the sin of pride)

"I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast." I Cor 9:15



(Paul decrees that a hairstyle can keep you from being a good Christian)

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a discrace to him," I Cor 11:14



(Paul even passes judgment on growling stomachs)

"If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." I Cor 11:34



(Paul curses an entire people who may not have heard Jesus' gospel)

"If anyone does not love the lord - a curse be on him."



PAUL DISTORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD:



Here is but one time that Paul mis-quoted scripture. In II Cor 6:2 Paul asserts that God said something that God didn't:

For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of my salvation I helped you." II Cor 6:2

What Isaiah 49:8 REALLY says is:

This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances," Isaiah 49:8

Why did Paul lie, distort scripture? And how would any believer defend this as something "O.K."?



So that no one will accuse me of taking anything out of context - I will include surrounding passages in addition to referencing the chapter number and passage numbers for this next example:


"Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

---surrounding passages---

"In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool." II Cor 11:17

"You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!" II Cor 11:19


Here is Paul not only boasting as "the world does" - but expressing a "self-confident" attitude in this boasting! And then, shockingly, Paul confesses that what he says is not coming from the Lord. (who then is it coming from?) Then Paul admits that he is talking "as a fool"

A boasting, self-confident, self-proclaimed foolish talker who admits that he is not speaking godly wisdom?




II CORINHTIANS BOASTING, DECEPTION, AND FOOLISHNESS:


(Paul causes the Corinthians pain and hurt on several instances)

"So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you." II Cor 2:1

"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while." II Cor 7:8



(Paul shows envy of other apostles, false humility, a need for congratulation, and more foolish talk)

"I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the 'super-apostles', even though I am nothing." II Cor 12:11



(Paul admits that Satan is in him - tormenting him)

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7



(Paul resorts to sneaky, under-handed tactics - WWJD?)

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal whith us in the things they boast about." II Cor 11:12



(Nothing seems to stop Paul from his boasting)

"I must go on boasting." II Cor 12:1



(Paul's threat to punish - what happened to the love of Christ?)

"On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others," II Cor 13:2 B


Is this who founded the Christian religion? A man who admits that Satan is in him tormenting him? Again - what about this self-confession of demon possession:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7


Are Christians really that quick to accept the teachings of a man who openly admits that a messenger of Satan (demon) is tormenting him...?

Especially when Jesus' works/miracles included healing the demon-possesed and casting out demons?

Do you not think that Jesus would have wanted to 'cleanse' or heal the "supposed" apostle to the gentiles? Couple this with the fact that Paul's initial "supposed" contact with Jesus resulted in blindness?

What if your preacher got up in your pulpit this Sunday, and then proceeded to tell you that a messenger from Satan resided in him... then why would you allow him to continue to preach the Word?

Looking forward to some wonderful insight, and discussion as we discern the Truth together.

Michael111


If you are here to make trouble Michael...well you just bumped into her. Are you an Apostle? No Paul was accepted by the disciples as a follower and a welcome addition. READ acts 9. Do you even read the BIBLE??????

[Granite]

Eden wrote:

"You guessed it... THE APOSTLE PAUL. He was the self-proclaimed apostle that founded the church of Ephesus. He was a liar, and was not an apostle of Jesus. He was counterfeit."

I see. So every time a church fails or slips into false doctrine we should automatically blame the founder of the church.

I don't know if Eden a) plagarized this from some whacko, b) is just trying to stir the pot, or c) has a bone to pick with something Paul wrote--something specific that Eden hasn't gotten to yet.

"Paul's tasteless rant aimed at those of the circumcision - he wants some to just go ahead and cut it all off...? Why do people defending the devil when he exposes HIMSELF as that via the scripture? And for those who feel that I am taking something 'out of context'..."

Maybe it's just me, but is there anything un-Christlike about taking the gloves off and really hammering at someone? Eden's real beef seems to be that Paul's style is TASTELESS. Oh, heavens. God forbid we should OFFEND somebody. Paul got right in the face of his opponents. Big deal. This is the same guy who called the Jewish high priest a white-washed wall. Paul wasn't big on making sure he made everybody comfy.

The fact that we actually need to debate the virtues of an apostle is appalling.

granite

[duel]

I enjoyed reading the topic you had regarding Paul. I was wondering what reference collection you sourced this from?

Islam has typically taught Paul as, "The Liar". And James, "The Righteous".

Daniel

[Granite]

Originally posted by duel
I enjoyed reading the topic you had regarding Paul. I was wondering what reference collection you sourced this from?

Islam has typically taught Paul as, "The Liar". And James, "The Righteous".

Daniel

Interesting. If someone's worthy of criticism by an enemy of Christianity, that's usually a good sign.

granite

[Adambassador]

I would also like to add that many Mormons don't like Paul because of his - grace, not works - message.

Michael, who is your teacher?

[Charismata]

Blame it on Paul (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/blameonpaul.htm)
Paul's Big Idea (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/paulbigidea.htm)
Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Relgions? (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0169a.html)
Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Philosophy? (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0163a.html)
Were the New Testament Authors Influenced by Pagan Legend? (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat2.html)
Was Jesus Just a Copycat Savior Myth? (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html)


Was Paul a Deceiver?
The popular myth that Paul was deceptive is expressed by writers such as Gerald Sigal, Michoel Drazin, and Beth Moshe:

"In his overriding desire to convert the masses to his beliefs, Paul is guided by the dubious assumption that the end justifies the means...The use of deception, by himself or others, in order to bring about belief in Jesus did not disturb Paul."

--Gerald Sigal, The Jew and the Christian Missionary: A Jewish Response to Missionary Christianity (New York: Ktav, 1981), p. 272. See also p. 290: "he considered deceit and pretense valid means for achieving his goal."

Paul "openly advocated 'pious fraud.'"

--Michoel Drazin, Their Hollow Inheritance: A Comprehensive Refutation of the New Testament and Its Missionaries (Jerusalem: Gefen Publishing House, 1990), p. 18.

"We feel we should demonstrate the unreliability of the man who actually formulated the break away from Judaism by the early Church...Now see who he is, by his own words. He admitted using trickery and deception to gain his ends."

--Beth Moshe, Judaism's Truth Answers the Missionaries (New York: Bloch Publishing Company, 1987), p. 212.

The New Testament passage in question that supposedly reveals Paul as a deceiver is First Corinthians 9:20-22:

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.

Far from being deceptive, Paul, when he wrote the passage from First Corinthians, was drawing on Jewish communications methods of his day. Like other Jewish leaders, Paul was simply being a good teacher and communicator. What Paul sets forth in First Corinthians is not a principle of deceit and expediency, but a principle of communication such as was taught and practiced by Hillel and others. Craig Keener, Professor of New Testament, Hood Theological Seminary, places First Corinthians 9:20-22 firmly within a Jewish context.

Some Jewish teachers, like Hillel, were similarly accommodationists, to win as many as possible to the truth.

--The IVP Bible Background Commentary (Downers Grove IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993), p. 472.

Similarly, David Daube, a Jewish Professor of Law at University of California, Berkeley, wrote at length about Paul's principles as found in First Corinthians 9:20-22. The following is taken from a much longer chapter, "Missionary Maxims in Paul," which is found in Daube's book The New Testament and Rabbinic Judaism:

[This idea is] taken over by Paul from Jewish teaching on the subject: the idea that you must adopt the customs and mood of the person you wish to win over....

First, for the idea of accommodation. Let us start from a passage in I Corinthians [Daube quotes First Corinthians 9:20-22].

This attitude had formed part of Jewish missionary practice long before Paul. Two Talmudic illustrations of Hillel's work are relevant: he accepted into the fold a gentile who refused to acknowledge the oral Law, and he accepted another who refused to acknowledge any Law beyond the most fundamental ethical principle [b. Shabbat 31a and Avot de-Rabbi Nathan 15]...At the decisive moment of conversion, he fell in with the notions of the applicant and declared himself satisfied with recognition of the written Law or a single, basic moral precept....

Hillel, we might put it, was made all things to all men, that he might by all means save some.

[Hillel had a saying] which may chiefly contemplate relations to outsiders [Tosefta Berachot 2.24]: "Do not appear naked, do not appear dressed, do not appear laughing, do not appear weeping -- as it is said, A time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing [Ecclesiastes 3:4f.]....

In the treatises Derekh Eretz Rabba and Derekh Eretz Zuta, we meet with descendants of Hillel's maxim. The former contains this paragraph: "A man should not be joyful among the weeping, nor weep among the joyful, nor wake among the sleeping, nor sleep among the waking, nor stand among the sitting, nor sit among the standing--the principle of the matter is, A man should not make different his mind from that of his fellows and the sons of men." The passage from Derekh Eretz Zuta is substantially the same, with two exceptions: there is a further pair of warnings, "nor should he read Scripture among those reading Mishnah, nor Mishnah among those reading Scripture," while the summing up runs, "A man should not differ from the usage of the creatures."

These paragraphs are evidence that Hillel's idea was taken up by others and lived on....

[It is] rather probable that Hillel did intend his maxim [cited above from Tosefta Berachot 2:24], which refers to behaviour among strangers, for use in missionary activity.

For another thing, in establishing the Jewish antecedents of Paul's plan, we need not rely exclusively on Hillel and sayings derived from him. In the Letter of Aristeas, the king asks how he might meet with acceptance when travelling abroad; and the answer opens, "By becoming equal to all," pasin isos ginomenos. As it stands, it is advice for a traveller -- a traveller who wishes to find favour with his hosts. Moreover, the term "equal" has a political sense: the traveller is a king, and he is advised to make light of his rank. None the less it may be assumed that, as early as the time the Letter was composed, this was also a slogan of proselyte-makers. The author of the Letter himself was a Jewish propagandist.

Paul, when he wrote the passage from I Corinthians quoted at the beginning, was drawing on a living element in Jewish religion.

--David Daube, The New Testament and Rabbinic Judaism (Salem, NH: Ayer Company, Publishers, Inc., 1992, © 1956, 1973), pp. 336-41 passim.

[Beacon]

Michael - I'd like to know more about your reasons for starting this thread. What do you believe and where did you come by the information you posted?

Beacon

[Kronus]

Charismata:

Thank you for taking the time and effort to link us to the source data of this screed.

Granite:

You put it best:

The fact that we actually need to debate the virtues of an apostle is appalling.

[Charismata]

:)

[Granite]

:cool:

[JackRUS]

Michael's hit and run post was the worst example of taking statements out of context to form a lie that I have ever read.

:down:

[duel]

Originally posted by JackRUS
Michael's hit and run post was the worst example of taking statements out of context to form a lie that I have ever read.

:down:

Agreed, but those ignorant of the mystery would be very susceptible to being duped.

Daniel

[MichaelEden]

For those who ask who my teacher is - it is Jesus Christ.
The scriptures reveal many things to those who seek the Truth.

In the case of Paul, Jesus showed me through the Holy Spirit, that he was not a true apostle. And if anyone reads his epistles very carefully - they will find evidence of Paul mis-quoting scripture, presenting personal opinions as truth, boasting, passing judgment, speaking harshly, lying, etc...

this passage ALONE should send up 'red flags':

"That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17

Here in the very pages of scripture is a man admitting that he speaks things "not after the Lord" and admits to speaking "foolishly" in addition to speaking all of this in the "confidence of boasting"

Can you say 'What's wrong with this picture?'



...more demonic 'leaven':



(Paul vengefully advocates that his enemies - circumcised Jews - castrate themselves)

"Brothers, If I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Gal 5:11-12




(Paul insults/passes mean judgment on circumcised Jews)

"Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh." Phil 3:2




(Paul blasphemously claims to know whose names are written in the book of life!)

"Yes , and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life." Phil 4:2



(Paul stirs up the other apostles with accusation and hostility)

"When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong." Gal 2:11



Blessings and Truth to all saints in Jesus Christ
Michael111

[Crow]

Michael--your grasp of Paul's pivotal role in the Christian faith is unbelievable. You have exibited zero concept of the difference between the circumcision (Jews) and the uncircumcision (Gentiles). Zero concept of salvation by works vs grace. If you are teaching yourself that Paul is apostate, then you have a fool for a teacher. And sweetheart, every bright idea you have is not from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not contradict the word of God, as the inane proposal that Paul was a false Apostle does. Peter even said Paul's teachings were difficult but they were true.

Michael, your first post in this thread was so insanely funny I passed it out to friends to laugh at. Michael, you need to get a good teacher and quit trying to teach yourself--you ain't getting it, son.

[duel]

Perhaps the Holy Spirit will also lead you to Moses (http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paula.htm) ?

[billwald]

Paul was probably an apostle but his letters generate several problems. First, half of them are part of a 2-way exchange. They are like hearing one half of a conversation. Second, they are addressed to a particular audience. Third, Paul isn't as accomplished a writer as people think he is. (I would never submit "Galatians" to a publisher. It is bad writing.)

The main problem is that people read "Christian" theology back into Paul. Most of his writing makes sense if you take it at face value and not try to "say" what it "means."

[Goose]

"...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." - 2Pe 3:15-16

[Turbo]

Goose (and Crow), I posted the same passage in Post 4 (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=292926#post292926) of this thread, but got no response from MichaelEden. I wonder why...

[Crow]

Who knows? You could tell by the lead post what you were stepping into.

[Goose]

Originally posted by Turbo
Goose (and Crow), I posted the same passage in Post 4 (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=292926#post292926) of this thread, but got no response from MichaelEden. I wonder why... LOL Sometimes I just wish Paul would come back and set the record straight. :)

[MichaelEden]

For those who study and search scripture, and who trust in the Holy Spirits guidance...

God's Word REVEALS many things. No "man" taught me that the apostle Paul was not a true apostle... Holy Spirit led study of scriptures revealed this. Have you not heard that God works in mysterious ways? Jesus spoke of the mysteries that would be revealed to those who seek with all of their heart and soul:


Mt 10:26 -
Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Mt 11:25 -
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Mt 16:17 -
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Lu 12:2 -
For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.


My Savior warned - via the pages of scripture - to beware of the 'leaven' of organized religion, because mixed in with the good would be false doctrine, hypocrisy, etc...


For example:

Jesus taught: "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:" (Luke 6:37)

Paul taught: "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed." (I Cor 5:3)

Paul then calls himself out by casting judgment: "But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Who is Paul to judge someone's deed, or whether someone is wicked, or not?

Here is but ONE example of Paul contradicting Jesus Christ's gospel.


Michael111

[Granite]

Eden, I don't care how real your Holy Spirit seemed to you (if indeed you're sincere in this nonsense you're peddling, and aren't simply trying to cause as much trouble as possible). We're also warned that the devil can transform himself into an angel of light. Plenty of people over the years have claimed to had a special revelation. Joseph Smith and other heretics are among them.

You are either ignorant, deluded, or a fool. Or possibly all of the above.

Goose, Crow, and Turbo have all given you the words of Peter--and his support for Paul is unequivocal. Deal with that before making your inane, ludicrous, half-baked, sick, and perverse accusations about an apostle.

And yes, I'm being as judgmental as I possibly can.

Cheers!

granite

[Goose]

Granite1010,

You're my hero of the day. :)

[Crow]

Granite sounds judgemental. I like, I like!

[Granite]

I always sound my best when the game is Righteous Indignation.

granite

:D

[prodigalson]

Goose, Crow, and Turbo have all given you the words of Peter--and his support for Paul is unequivocal. Deal with that before making

I guess that would be game, set, and match.

[MichaelEden]

Originally posted by Goose
LOL Sometimes I just wish Paul would come back and set the record straight. :)



He doesn't have to.

He left behind 14 epistles containing evidence of mis-quoting scripture, boasting, personal opinions presented as truth, judgment, etc...

He left quite a record for those of us willing to search out the Word of God for the truth. The Bible itself is a revelation.

Michael111

[Granite]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
He doesn't have to.

He left behind 14 epistles containing evidence of mis-quoting scripture, boasting, personal opinions presented as truth, judgment, etc...

He left quite a record for those of us willing to search out the Word of God for the truth. The Bible itself is a revelation.

Michael111

So far, Eden, you're the only person here who's twisted scripture, boasted of personal revelation, and pawned off your own opinion as the truth. The Bible certainly is a revelation. And your denial of it proves you to be a liar.

Frankly I was expecting more from your latest post--or maybe that's hoping for too much.

I'll ask a serious question and try not to use you too much as a punching bag: what is your solution to the breath taking discovery that Paul was not a true servant of Christ? What would you have the church do?

Not that I'm expecting a serious answer.

granite

[CrossPoint]

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.Titus 3:9

But of course that was Paul...he was only an apostle chosen by Christ himself.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
He doesn't have to.

He left behind 14 epistles containing evidence of mis-quoting scripture, boasting, personal opinions presented as truth, judgment, etc...

He left quite a record for those of us willing to search out the Word of God for the truth. The Bible itself is a revelation.

Michael111

Dangit Eden! Answer the questions that everyone has asked you! If Jesus Christ has taught you through the Spirit and scripture that Paul is a deceiver, then answer our counter-examples.

You can't, can you? Either these objections to your rant fill you with fear and uncertainty, or they simply roll off your foolish back.

Answer them, wimp!

[philosophizer]

And if you won't answer, I'll respond to you piece by piece.

Originally posted by MichaelEden
(stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8 Paul, while preaching in Corinth, did not take any money from them as other preachers may have done in order to impress them. He did not accept aid from the people of Corinth but received it through the Lord's provision from other churches and other church brothers.


(boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18This is a clever and humorous rebuke of worldly boasting. Paul's being sarcastic. It's part of his preaching style. If you can't see beyond this you must be blind.


(speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17See above. And also check out 2 Corinthians 11:30-31. If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.


(trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16This is where he turns his preaching around. He turns the tables on them. He was acting a fool to expose it in his audience. Fine example of his brilliant preaching abilities.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
We've been warned before about "devils in disguise" as "angels of light"... Here is a scriptural look into the mind of a deceiver - via the pages of Corinthians I and II. The devil's in the details:


(Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/161 Corinthians 4:18-21 -- 18Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?
Paul was saying that they needed leadership. They had plenty of "guardians" (brothers, sisters, peers) but had no "fathers" (leaders), and were thus becoming arrogant. There were growing problems, as we see in the following chapter.



(Paul decides to pass judgment on someone)

"And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just if I were present." I Cor 5:3What's your point? There's nothing inherently sinful about judging.


(Paul decides to consult with Satan, not Jesus, concerning the man he passed judgment on)

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." I Cor 5:5Right. Because this man was unrepentant. Even though this guy was sexually immoral in some way, he was proud of it (v. 2). This is good advice. This whole chapter is about expelling immoral brothers. If they won't repent, they can only be harmful to the church by spreading their pride and their immoral behavior. Paul says to kick him out and let his behavior come around to harm him in the way it inevitably will so it may strip him of his pride and cause him to repent.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
(Paul thinks he is better than anyone else)

"I wish that all men were as I am." I Cor 7:7Paul is talking about self-control. He acknowledges that not all people receive this gift from God, but he wishes that everyone could.



(Paul admits to injecting his own opinions into scripture)

"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):" I Cor 7:12Right. This is one of the many issues that Jesus did not speak of directly. Does that mean Paul had no right to say it? Only if you fallaciously believe (as you do) that Paul was a false apostle. But if you trust in Paul's calling by God (as the overwhelming amount of evidence supports), then you should trust also that he is proclaiming God's will, even though he isn't directly quoting Jesus. Verse 40 of this chapter alludes to that: 40In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.


(Paul, who is single, gives faulty advice on marriage)

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am" I Cor 7:8

"Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." I Cor 7:27 How is this bad advice? You intentionally took it out of the context of the following verse. Are you willfully deceptive?! 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 -- 8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

And verse 27 should be taken in the context of the whole last bit of this chapter in which Paul is warning against becoming engrossed in worldly things.


(Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)

"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29No, you're wrong, and apparently stupid. See above.



(Paul advocates staying the same and not progressing forward)

"Each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him." I Cor 7:20 This means that you don't have to drastically change who you are, what you do, where you live, etc. when you become a Christian. Why not? Because, as Paul is clearly stating in this chapter and in many others, God is not concerned with worldly things, but with our spirits.


(What does Paul have against marriage?)

"An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:" I Cor 7:34

"But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please her husband." I Cor 7:34You really don't get it, do you? Paul is talking about lust. He wants people to stay away from it, but he knows that's unlikely. He wishes that people could wholly devote their lives to serving the Lord. He's truthfully being quite the idealist. But he also suggests that since his idealism will probably not come to form, people who cannot control lust (and that's most everyone) should marry. He does advocate it.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
(strange talk)

"In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is - and I think that I too have the spirit of God." I Cor 7:40You are accusing him of "strange talk"? I'll tell you, Jesus must have been far more guilty of "strange talk" than Paul. Most of the time his disciples didn't have the foggiest what He was talking about. What kind of an accusation is "strange talk"?



(Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)

"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

"If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11Okay. If you're going to call Paul a sinner because he makes a living from his preaching, then you're going to have to do the same for all the other apostles. This had been the tradition of the Christians and Jews since the laws of Moses. Priests lived off of the temple food.

Besides, if you'd have bothered to read any of the context, you'd see that though Paul asserts this right, he does not personally claim it.



(Paul loves the sin of pride)

"I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast." I Cor 9:15 Pride isn't necessarily sinful. I am proud of my Lord Jesus Christ. I boast of His deeds daily. Is that a sin? The boast Paul is talking about is that he has not taken any money while preaching to the Corinthian church. That's pretty amazing and gives good reason for respect.



(Paul decrees that a hairstyle can keep you from being a good Christian)

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a discrace to him," I Cor 11:14Now this is a debatable issue that actually deserves a whole thread of its own. But I don't think that Paul is saying that men with long hair are going to Hell. That would contradict everything else Paul himself says about the things of the world meaning nothing.



(Paul even passes judgment on growling stomachs)

"If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." I Cor 11:34This section seems to be talking about failing to realize the significance of the Lord's Supper. Most members of the church in Corinth seemed to see it only as a worldly meal and forgot about all the spiritual meaning behind it. A big theme of most of Paul's messages is that perception is a big part of faith and that we must act in our faith according to that perception. These people were not perceiving the Lord's Supper in its proper importance and were thus perceiving wrongly. And so they were damaging their faith.

In a very practical sense, Paul is talking here about how the ceremony be conducted. Everyone should wait before they eat and drink so that they know there will be enough for everybody. Apparently this wasn't happening: 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. This is selfish, whether fallaciously driven by greed in obtaining more of a blessing from God, or foolishly driven by gluttony in simply filling their hungry stomachs.

So is the growling stomach what is wrong? No. Is hunger wrong? No. But they had a problem in the Corinthian church. They needed to fix their faith by realizing the spiritual significance of the Lord's Supper they were taking part in. They needed to fix their physical hunger so that they don't over-indulge in the bread and wine so that people aren't left out. And given this situation, a growling stomach could lead others to judge the commitment of the person who owns it to fixing the problem at hand. For God's sake, just read the context!

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
(Paul curses an entire people who may not have heard Jesus' gospel)

"If anyone does not love the lord - a curse be on him."So? What's God going to do to those who don't love him?



PAUL DISTORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD:

Here is but one time that Paul mis-quoted scripture. In II Cor 6:2 Paul asserts that God said something that God didn't:

For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of my salvation I helped you." II Cor 6:2

What Isaiah 49:8 REALLY says is:

This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances," Isaiah 49:8

Why did Paul lie, distort scripture? And how would any believer defend this as something "O.K."?You really baffle me. In Isaiah, it was referring to the future. When Paul said it, that propheys had already come to pass. That's why he switched it to past tense. So how did he "distort" it exactly?



So that no one will accuse me of taking anything out of context -A little late for that I will include surrounding passages in addition to referencing the chapter number and passage numbers for this next example:


"Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

---surrounding passages---

"In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool." II Cor 11:17

"You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!" II Cor 11:19


Here is Paul not only boasting as "the world does" - but expressing a "self-confident" attitude in this boasting! And then, shockingly, Paul confesses that what he says is not coming from the Lord. (who then is it coming from?) Then Paul admits that he is talking "as a fool"

A boasting, self-confident, self-proclaimed foolish talker who admits that he is not speaking godly wisdom?Oh wow Michael, you are so right! You are so wise and I'm just an idiot to believe otherwise. You really gots the smarts. I can't believe I've been such a moron for believing Pauls epistles!

There. Did you pick up on that sarcasm? Could you see that I was being facetious? Maybe you'd be more comfortable if every time Paul used this literary technique that he'd use one of these smilies: :rolleyes:. Would that help you realize what he's doing. Jeez! And you even tried to add in the context this time, though you didn't get nearly enough of it.

Maybe this will help you. Instead of just reading the epistles like words on a page, try to visualize them. Try to read them as if you are in a gathering of people listening to Paul preach. Try to picture how Paul would say these things and that might help you figure out why he's saying those things.




II CORINHTIANS BOASTING, DECEPTION, AND FOOLISHNESS:

(Paul causes the Corinthians pain and hurt on several instances)

"So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you." II Cor 2:1

"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while." II Cor 7:8Have you ever been hurt by the truth? If you answer "no" you're a liar. The truth hurts sometimes. And telling it can make people feel bad. Paul doesn't want his fellow Christians to have to feel bad, but he would rather tell the truth, even if it causes them pain.

[Granite]

Hey Philo...glad to see someone finally took the time to refute this half-wit line by line.

I think Eden is either a fool who truly believes this garbage--or he's doing this deliberately and trying to stir up as much trouble as possible, just for the fun of it. He's not going to respond to you or me or anyone else who's actually challenged him.

granite

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by MichaelEden
(Paul shows envy of other apostles, false humility, a need for congratulation, and more foolish talk)

"I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the 'super-apostles', even though I am nothing." II Cor 12:11Once again, Paul is using sarcasm. He is "foolishly boasting" in order to make a point against those who foolishly boast.



(Paul admits that Satan is in him - tormenting him)

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7How in the name of heavan can you seriously see this passage in such a WRONG light? Do you honestly think that this means Paul is possessed or otherwise letting demons into his life? Have you read the CONTEXT?!

2 Corinthinas 12:5-10 -- 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul is obviously talking about how God's power is made perfect in weakness. God's great deeds that are performed through us need no power prerequisite from us. For if a man did great deeds by the power of God but had also personal strengths, he could brag about his abilities to do such good for God, or others might see him and his deeds and think that the power came from only him. God's power is made perfect in our weakness because it becomes fully obvious. When miracles are worked through men that have no ability to do anything of the sort, to God goes the glory.



(Paul resorts to sneaky, under-handed tactics - WWJD?)

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal whith us in the things they boast about." II Cor 11:12First of all, this is not sneaky or under-handed at all. He is openly stating is tactic. There are no hidden motives or purposes. Paul lays it out quite clearly why he is doing what he is doing. I'm sorry it went over your head.



(Nothing seems to stop Paul from his boasting)

"I must go on boasting." II Cor 12:1 You deceitful son of Satan! Now you are clipping off parts of verses from the rest. Taking verses out of context was low. But you just snipped out part of a verse. You are a spreader of lies! You snake!

2 Corinthians 12:1 -- I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.

I will no longer reply to any more claims of Paul's "boasting" as I've already answered it repeatedly. But not as though I actually expect a reply from you. You've probably already run off to another forum, you troll.



(Paul's threat to punish - what happened to the love of Christ?)

"On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others," II Cor 13:2 BWhat is the "love of Christ?" What is love? Do you know?

Proverbs 3:11 -- 11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline
and do not resent his rebuke,
12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves,
as a father the son he delights in.

Love does not spare discipline and rebuke. Where love is found you will also find justice. Love isn't blind acceptance. If there's a problem in your loved one, you rebuke it. If your loved one breaks the law, they must be punished. Fail to do any of this and your love is meaningless. Just a cover without care. A pretty blanket over a messy bed.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 -- 1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.



Is this who founded the Christian religion? A man who admits that Satan is in him tormenting him? Again - what about this self-confession of demon possession:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7Maybe you could use a thorn in your flesh yourself.


Are Christians really that quick to accept the teachings of a man who openly admits that a messenger of Satan (demon) is tormenting him...? Well, I'm not accepting your "teachings." What does that tell you?


Especially when Jesus' works/miracles included healing the demon-possesed and casting out demons?

Do you not think that Jesus would have wanted to 'cleanse' or heal the "supposed" apostle to the gentiles? Couple this with the fact that Paul's initial "supposed" contact with Jesus resulted in blindness?WHICH HE WAS THEN HEALED FROM! OPEN YOUR EARS AND EYES!!!


What if your preacher got up in your pulpit this Sunday, and then proceeded to tell you that a messenger from Satan resided in him... then why would you allow him to continue to preach the Word?You are twisting words. Paul did not say that a messenger of Satan "resided in him."


Looking forward to some wonderful insight, and discussion as we discern the Truth together.

Michael111 No you are not. You are a deceiver. You have taken verses out of context. You have cut parts out of verses to fit your point. You have defiled the Word of God. Insight we can manage. The Truth is easy to tell. But we've gone a little past "discussion." You have issued lies and I'm calling you out on the carpet. I have met your points and I challenge you to follow up.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Goose

"...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." - 2Pe 3:15-16 Wow! Those were the days... :(

[Poly]

Originally posted by Turbo

Wow! Those were the days... :(
Yeah, I know. Lighthouse resurrected this (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=614217#post614217) thread which brought back memories. :nono:

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by Goose

LOL Sometimes I just wish Paul would come back and set the record straight. :)


What happened? :confused:

[Poly]

Originally posted by philosophizer

What happened? :confused:

And just a few posts after the one you quoted of him he says...

Originally posted by Goose

Granite1010,

You're my hero of the day. :)

This was in response to granite saying...


Originally posted by granite1010

Eden, I don't care how real your Holy Spirit seemed to you (if indeed you're sincere in this nonsense you're peddling, and aren't simply trying to cause as much trouble as possible). We're also warned that the devil can transform himself into an angel of light. Plenty of people over the years have claimed to had a special revelation. Joseph Smith and other heretics are among them.

You are either ignorant, deluded, or a fool. Or possibly all of the above.

Goose, Crow, and Turbo have all given you the words of Peter--and his support for Paul is unequivocal. Deal with that before making your inane, ludicrous, half-baked, sick, and perverse accusations about an apostle.

And yes, I'm being as judgmental as I possibly can.

Cheers!

granite

Now both of these guys have become "ignorant, deluded or a fool. Or possibly all of the above". :(

[philosophizer]

:cry:

[Lighthouse]

:taoist:

[Granite]

Oh, yeah, sorry. Even with the conviction and fury I had (these days I just don't care what Eden does; he's good entertainment), I was never "really" a card-carrying member. Just faking it.

What a joke...:rolleyes:

[Geaney]

If you are here to make trouble Michael...well you just bumped into her. Are you an Apostle? No Paul was accepted by the disciples as a follower and a welcome addition. READ acts 9. Do you even read the BIBLE??????

Congratulations to Michael Eden for so expertly marshalling extracts from the writings of Paul himself which confirm that Paul was a false apostle and the very "enemy" (Matthew 13:25) warned of by Yeshuwa Hameshiyach.

In your attempted rebuttal of Michael Eden you wrongly state that "Paul was accepted by the disciples as a follower and a welcome addition. READ acts 9" .

Contrary to your assertion Acts 9 makes it abundantly plain that Paul, was NOT "accepted by the disciples"

"But when SAUL had come to Jerusalem HE tried to join the disciples; but they were ALL AFRAID OF HIM AND DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE WAS A DISCIPLE "(Acts 9:26).

Later Paul 'PAUL' COMPLAINED BITTERLY to his disciple Timothy: "This you know that ALL THOSE IN ASIA HAVE TURNED AWAY FROM ME" (2 Tim. 1:15).

More seriously as Michael Eden also pointed out Paul preached a completely different "Gospel" to that preached by Yeshuwa and His Twelve apostles of The lamb.

Yeshuwa and "the twelve apostles of The Lamb" (Revelation 21:14) preached "The Good News of The Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 24:14. Mark 1:15)

Paul preached THE LYING "ABOMINATION" (Exodus 23:7. Proverbs 17:15) which he admitted was "another gospel" (2 Cor 11:4) in which he teaches THE LIE concerning a "god that JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5) . 'PAUL and his CHRISTIAN MINISTERS give FALSE assurances to "[I UNGODLY...SINNERS...concerning his "god that JUSTIFIETH the UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5). [/I]

"YHVH Elohiym" (Exodus 9:30) emphatically declares: "I WILL NOT JUSTIFY THE UNGODLY"(Exodus 23:7) and further makes it clear:

"HE (Paul) THAT JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, AND HE (Paul) THAT CONDEMNETH THE JUST, EVEN THEY BOTH ARE AN ABOMINATION TO YHVH" (Proverbs 17:15).

Thank you for providing me with this opportunity to show that Michael Eden is not alone in declaring that Paul was indeed a "false apostle" (Rev 2:2).

Patrick Geaney

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Geaney, if you had anything remotely resembling a clue, you would have you would have also noted that this is an old thread ... and you would have seen that Michael Eden's OP was aced, laced, re-aced, defaced, disgraced, erased, and replaced.

Thank you for your time ... please try again.

[philosophizer]

Congratulations to Michael Eden for so expertly marshalling extracts from the writings of Paul himself which confirm that Paul was a false apostle and the very "enemy" (Matthew 13:25) warned of by Yeshuwa Hameshiyach.

In your attempted rebuttal of Michael Eden you wrongly state that "Paul was accepted by the disciples as a follower and a welcome addition. READ acts 9" .

Contrary to your assertion Acts 9 makes it abundantly plain that Paul, was NOT "accepted by the disciples"

"But when SAUL had come to Jerusalem HE tried to join the disciples; but they were ALL AFRAID OF HIM AND DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE WAS A DISCIPLE "(Acts 9:26).

Later Paul 'PAUL' COMPLAINED BITTERLY to his disciple Timothy: "This you know that ALL THOSE IN ASIA HAVE TURNED AWAY FROM ME" (2 Tim. 1:15).

More seriously as Michael Eden also pointed out Paul preached a completely different "Gospel" to that preached by Yeshuwa and His Twelve apostles of The lamb.

Yeshuwa and "the twelve apostles of The Lamb" (Revelation 21:14) preached "The Good News of The Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 24:14. Mark 1:15)

Paul preached THE LYING "ABOMINATION" (Exodus 23:7. Proverbs 17:15) which he admitted was "another gospel" (2 Cor 11:4) in which he teaches THE LIE concerning a "god that JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5) . 'PAUL and his CHRISTIAN MINISTERS give FALSE assurances to "[I UNGODLY...SINNERS...concerning his "god that JUSTIFIETH the UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5). [/I]

"YHVH Elohiym" (Exodus 9:30) emphatically declares: "I WILL NOT JUSTIFY THE UNGODLY"(Exodus 23:7) and further makes it clear:

"HE (Paul) THAT JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, AND HE (Paul) THAT CONDEMNETH THE JUST, EVEN THEY BOTH ARE AN ABOMINATION TO YHVH" (Proverbs 17:15).

Thank you for providing me with this opportunity to show that Michael Eden is not alone in declaring that Paul was indeed a "false apostle" (Rev 2:2).

Patrick Geaney

Here comes another knuckleball. BATTER UP!

[aikido7]

Jesus preached the coming Kingdom of God. What ended up coming was the church.

Each gospel preaches a different Jesus. Whatever specific cultural issues facing early faith communities determed the sort of Jesus they found and preached about.

Many faith communities today find a Jesus who condemns gays and abortion. Others find a Jesus who counseled a love of one's enemies and a recognition of God's unconditional love for all.

In Paul's letters, Jesus becomes elevated to claim the title of "Son of God" because of his crucifixion and resurrection. In Mark's gospel, Jesus is declared the Son of God at his baptism. Luke goes further back, declaring his sonship in the womb. John's christology has Jesus the Son of God exisitng before the world was created.

First came Jesus and his authentic historical words and deeds. Next came the oral tradition about his words and deeds. After that came the evangelists, who took the oral stories, memories of history and their own theologies to construct a Jesus that had meaning for them.

[Justin (Wiccan)]

First came Jesus and his authentic historical words and deeds. Next came the oral tradition about his words and deeds. After that came the evangelists, who took the oral stories, memories of history and their own theologies to construct a Jesus that had meaning for them.

:first:

Not that this statement is going to be at all popular, but that's what the history indicates.

[fool]

Jesus preached the coming Kingdom of God. What ended up coming was the church.

Each gospel preaches a different Jesus. Whatever specific cultural issues facing early faith communities determed the sort of Jesus they found and preached about.

Many faith communities today find a Jesus who condemns gays and abortion. Others find a Jesus who counseled a love of one's enemies and a recognition of God's unconditional love for all.

In Paul's letters, Jesus becomes elevated to claim the title of "Son of God" because of his crucifixion and resurrection. In Mark's gospel, Jesus is declared the Son of God at his baptism. Luke goes further back, declaring his sonship in the womb. John's christology has Jesus the Son of God exisitng before the world was created.

First came Jesus and his authentic historical words and deeds. Next came the oral tradition about his words and deeds. After that came the evangelists, who took the oral stories, memories of history and their own theologies to construct a Jesus that had meaning for them.
:BRAVO::BRAVO::BRAVO::BRAVO::BRAVO::BRAVO:

[Messenger]

The Way, The Truth, and The Life

A rich man asked the Mashiach (Messiah, Christ) how he could enter the Father’s Kingdom. Yeshua (Jesus) replied, “Keep the commandments if you want to enter life.”

What commandments was he talking about? Was it the commandment to ‘just believe in him and be saved’? Or was it the commandment that somehow ‘his blood would wash away all sin’?

Lucky for us, he does list the commandments to which he was referring. Most people would recognize them as the holy and righteous law that his Father YHVH (aka God) has always upheld. The life that Yeshua leads is no different than what his Father has always asked for. Yeshua is the example that each man and woman should strive to emulate. The 14th chapter of the Gospel of John offers several insights into this relationship between Father and Son. Here are a few quotes from Yeshua:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life;” (v.6)

“no one goes to the Father except by me.” (v.6)

“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” (v.9)

“The words that I have spoken to you do not come from me. The Father, who remains in me, does His own work.” (v.10)

“I am in the Father and the Father is in me” (v.11)

“I am telling you the truth: whoever believes in me will do what I do” (v.12)

“If you love me, you will obey my commandments.” (v.15)


This is the real gospel. This is it. The REAL DEAL. CASE CLOSED


Hmmm . . . this doesn’t exactly jive with what I’ve been taught . . . I’m pretty sure that the law is there to condemn us and that ‘there is none righteous under the law’ . . . yeah that’s what my pastor was saying last Sunday . . . oh yeah and my flesh will do what my spirit doesn’t want it to do . . . and man is ‘cursed under the law’ . . . yeah the law is a curse.

The Law is a curse? Your body does what your mind doesn’t want? There’s none righteous under the law? Have you gone mad child? Where did you get these teachings from?

Umm actually, it’s from a really smart guy . . . he wrote most of the new testament and he was God’s ‘greatest apostle’. His name was Paul.


Oh really, tell me what this Paul guy says then . . .


He says that nobody is righteous in Romans 3:10-12

10. As the scriptures say: “There is no one who is righteous,
11. No one who is wise or who worships God.
12. All have turned away from God; they have all gone wrong;
No one does what is right, not even one.


My bible says that he was quoting from Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53:1-3 which are basically identical passages. Let’s see what it says:

Psalm 14:1-3

Fools say to themselves, “There is no God!”
They are all corrupt, and they have done terrible things;
There is no one who does what is right.
The LORD looks down from heaven at mankind to see if there are any
who are wise, any who worship him.
But they have all gone wrong; they are all equally bad.
Not one of them does what is right, not a single one.


Wow. It looks as though Paul has twisted the Psalms to imply that everyone is like that; not just the fools. If I keep reading what does Psalm 14:4 say?

“Don’t they know?” asks the LORD. “Are all these evildoers
ignorant? They live by robbing my people and they never pray to me.”



From this we can deduce that the LORD’s people are not included in the group that Paul describes. Paul twists the meaning of “no one” as written in the Psalms to include more people than just the ‘evildoers’ and ‘fools’. The LORD’s people are righteous because they do keep his Law.




Why don’t we have a look at Paul’s “conversion story”

Acts 9:3-7

3. As Saul was coming near the city of Damascus, suddenly a light from the sky flashed around him.
4. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?”
5. “Who are you, Lord?” he asked. “I am Jesus, whom you persecute”, the voice said.
6. “But get up and go into the city, where you will be told what you must do.”
7. The men who were traveling with Saul had stopped, not saying a word; they heard the voice but could not see anyone.


Why don’t you tell it again Paul . . .

Acts 22:6-9

6.“As I was traveling and coming near Damascus, about midday a bright light from the sky flashed suddenly around me.
7. I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?’
8. ‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked. I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you persecute,’ he said to me.
9. The men with me saw the light, but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me.”


Hmmm, I wonder why he can’t tell his story the same way twice in a row? Did the men see the light or did they hear the voice? Which is it Paul? Maybe he just made the whole thing up?


Paul said in 2 Corinthians 11: 16-18

16. I repeat: no one should think that I am a fool. But if you do, at least accept me as a fool, just so I will have a little to boast of.
17. Of course what I am saying now is not what the Lord would have me say; in this matter of boasting I am really talking like a fool.
18. But since there are so many who boast for merely human reasons, I will do the same.

???? What? The more I look at this ‘Paul’ scripture the more it seems like he’s crazy. In Jeremiah 9:24, YHVH says, “If anyone wants to boast, he should boast that he knows and understands me,”

John 7:18

[Yeshua said,] “A person who speaks on his own authority is trying to gain glory for himself.”


Paul says in Romans 3:20 “For no one is put right in God’s sight by doing what the Law requires; what the Law does is to make man know he sinned.”


??????? Does this even require a rebuttal? Can I not just direct you to the teachings of the Messiah outlined in the start of this paper? The way into the Kingdom of heaven is to do what the Law requires . . . this truth coming straight from the mouth of Yeshua. (“Keep the commandments if you want to enter life.”)


The truth of the matter is that basically all of Paul’s writings are twisted and confusing. Why would God have and apostle that was difficult to understand? That just doesn’t make any sense. Keep comparing “Paul’s Gospel” to the true gospel of the real Messiah and the real apostles (Matthew and John), and you’ll see the difference is like night and day . . . spiritual night and day.


I would like to thank the members of www.riversofrevelation.com/forum for their insight and support.

[RayOfLight]

Messenger wrote Why don’t we have a look at Paul’s “conversion story”
Sure... Why not? LOL. :idea:


Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood speechless (Acts 9:7)
and
Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate (Acts 26:14)

ACTS 26:14: And when they had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me...
Acts 9:7: The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.
While we are at it, let's add the other account...
Acts 22:9: My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

Obviously, according to the NIV translation, there is no contradiction, as you can hear a sound, but not the recognize it as the voice of one speaking. So is this translation justified? Sure. The original Greek makes a distinction between hearing a sound as a noise and hearing a voice as a thought-conveying message. Haley notes "The Greek "akouo", like our word "hear", has two distinct meanings, to perceive sound, and to understand". This distinction makes sense also in light of the context. Recall the differing levels of perception. While the men heard an unintelligible sound and saw a light, Paul heard the voice and saw the person speaking. In fact, this type of distinction occurs in another place:

"Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again". The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him" [John 12:28-29]. Here is a clear-cut example where a voice speaks, but is heard by some as an unintelligible sound.

As for the stance of Paul's companions, Haley notes "the word rendered 'stood' also means to be fixed, to be rooted to the spot. Hense, the sense may be, not that they stood erect, but that they were rendered motionless, or fixed to the spot, by overpowering fear". It is also entirely plausible that when they first saw the great light, they "hit the dirt", then they could have got up off the ground and stood there motionless.

The problem with (your) approach is that it assumes these accounts are exhaustive, step by step, accounts where each detail is conveyed. They are not. It's not as if the author of Acts is saying "this is how it happened" three separate times. The author does this once, and the other two times he relays Paul speaking about it in two different contexts. Now given that the author wasn't on the road to Damascus, and given that Paul was speaking from memory, and given that none of these are meant to be some exhaustive, detailed, point by point description, it is indeed wise to fit them all together. Furthermore, the account in Acts 26 relays a speech that Paul gave to King Agrippa which was only a synopsis. Acts 26 simply relays the manner in which Paul chose to convey his points.

by Bumbulis, Smith, and White

[Turbo]

Messenger,

Do you believe that the non-Pauline Scriptures (the Law, the Prophets, the Writings, the Gospels, Acts, the non-Pauline epistles, and Revelation) are the infallible and authoritative word of God?

Please specify which, if any, of their Scriptures you accept as authoritative and which, if any, you do not.

(Please keep your answer brief and direct.)

[RayOfLight]

Messenger wrote
Keep comparing “Paul’s Gospel” to the true gospel of the real Messiah and the real apostles (Matthew, Mark, and John), and you’ll see the difference is like night and day . . . spiritual night and day.

Oh, please do everyone (compare Paul with Jesus). For in doing so, you will see that they are not contradictory, but complimentary.

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man …"(John 3:13).

"He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all." (John 3:31).

Jesus Himself said He came down from heaven, which most understand as His incarnation.

"For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." (John 6:33).

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 6:38 ).

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." (John 6:51)

Was Paul ignorant of this event? Absolutely not. For He mentioned this at least one for sure, if not twice.

"And so it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit....The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven." (1 Corinthians 14:45-47).


For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich. (2 Corinthians 8:9)

Paul was definately in agreement with Jesus, and offers two complimentary passages with John's Gospel and Jesus' Words Himself. But this doesn't come close to the complimentary teachings Paul gives in relation to the apostles Matthew and John, not to mention Jesus' teachings Himself. I mean, see for yourself:

(JESUS) Luke 6.27-28: "Love your enemies...bless those who curse you"
(JESUS) Matt 5.24: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"
(PAUL) Romans 12.14: "Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse"

(JESUS) Mark 7:15: "there is nothing outside the man which going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.
(PAUL) Romans 14:14: " I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is profane in itself"

(JESUS) Matt 17:20: "if you have faith...you will say to this mountain, 'Move'..."
(PAUL) I Cor 13.2: "if I have all faith so as to move mountains..."

(JESUS) Matt 19.21: "If you would be perfect, go, sell all your possessions and give to the poor..."
(PAUL) I Cor 13.3: "if I give away all my possessions..." (contra Rabbinical advice! Cf. b. Ketubot 50a and Mishnah Arakin 8.4)

(JESUS) Matt 24.43: "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 "For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
(PAUL) I Thess 5:2,4: "For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night...But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief;

(JESUS) Mark 9.50: "live at peace with one another" (verb forms are absolutely identical)
(PAUL) I Thess 5.13: "live at peace among yourselves"

(JESUS) Mark 4.22: "For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it should come to light.
(PAUL) I Cor 4.5: "who will bring to light the secrets of darkness and will make public the purposes of the heart"
(PAUL) Rom 2.16: "God judges the secrets of people, according to my gospel through Jesus Christ"
(PAUL) I Cor 14.25: "The secrets of his heart are made public"

(JESUS) Mark 14:36: "And He was saying, "Abba! Father" (very uncommon usage)
(PAUL) Gal 4.6: "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!""
(PAUL) Rom 8.15: "you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

(JESUS) Luke 10.21f: ""I praise Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding and didst reveal them to babes. Yes, Father, for thus it was well-pleasing in Thy sight.
(PAUL) I Cor 1-2 (various verses): "hidden things" (2.7), "the wise" (1.19), "the understanding" (1.19), "God has revealed" (2.10), "to infants" (3.1), "God was pleased" (1.21)

(JESUS) Mark 14:22-23: "And while they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it; and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is My body." 23 And when He had taken a cup, and given thanks, He gave it to them; and they all drank from it. 24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
(PAUL) I Cor 11:23: "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes." [the whole thing!]

(JESUS) Luke 10.7: "And stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages.
(PAUL) I Cor 9.14: "So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. "
(PAUL) I Tim 5.18: "For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

[Overall, there are significant amounts of allusion material in Paul to this synoptic mission discourse, some of which are as follows:

*the sending of the apostles on itinerant mission (Matt 10:2, 5/Mark 6:7/Luke 9:2/10:1; so 1 Cor 9:1, 5, etc.),
*their authority (Matt 10:1/Mark 6:7/Luke 9:1; so 1 Cor 9:4, etc.),
*to preach the gospel (Matt 10:7/Luke 9:2; 10:9; so 1 Cor 9:14-16, etc.)
*and to cast out devils and heal (Matt 10:1/Mark 6:7/Luke 9:1/Luke 10:9; so 2 Cor 12:12),
*their mission to Israel (Matt 10:5; so Gal 2:8, 9),
*"you received without payment; give without payment" (Matt 10:8; so 2 Cor 11:7; 1 Cor 9:18, etc.),
*"eating and drinking . . ." (Luke 10:7; so 1 Cor 9:4, etc.),
*"the laborer deserves to be paid" (Matt 10:10/Luke 10:7; so 1 Cor 9:14, etc.),
*"eat what is set before you" (Luke 10:8; so 1 Cor 10:27),
*"be wise as serpents and innocent as doves" (Matt 10:16; so Rom 16:19),
*"whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me" (Luke 10:16; so 1 Thes 4:8 ).

(JESUS) Matt 16.16-20: "And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
(PAUL) Gal 1.15,16: "But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,

(JESUS) Mark 10.9f: "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." 10 And in the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
(PAUL) I Cor 7.10-11: But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11 (but if she does leave, let her remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not send his wife away

(JESUS) Matt 22.21: "Then He *said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." (reference to taxes and tribute)
(PAUL) Romans 13.7: "Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor" [linguistic forms are identical]

(JESUS) Matt 20.26: "It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
(PAUL) Romans 15.7: "For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision

(JESUS) Mark 10.44: "and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. 45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.
(PAUL) I Cor 9.19: "I have made myself a slave to all..."
(PAUL) I Cor 10.33: "just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, that they may be saved.

(JESUS) Matt 5.33f: "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.' 34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; and anything beyond these is of evil."
(PAUL) 2 Cor 1.17-18: "Or that which I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yes, yes and no, no at the same time? 18 But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no."

To this list above could be added scores and scores (and probably hundreds and hundreds) of other examples, but that will have to wait for a different piece.

But not only did Paul know (and repeat) Jesus' teaching--often almost verbatim!--he constantly pointed his readers to the life of Christ as an example to follow.

Rom 15.1: "Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to his edification. 3 For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached Thee fell upon Me."
Philp 2.5: "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,"
I Cor 11.1: "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
Eph 5.1: "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us"

Honestly Messenger, I think you are the one who needs to keep comparing Paul with the Gospel of Christ. Yes, there are some differences, and i'll give you that; but lets keep in mind that Jesus was still under the old covenant, and Paul was God's chosen vessel to introduce and reveal the new covenant to mankind. So of course there are differences. After all, we do have two distinct covenants in mind! So in conclusion, if we are to really compare Paul's letters with the gospels and teachings of Christ, we can clearly see 1) Paul WAS NOT a false apostle, 2) they compliment each other, not conflict with each other. 3) Paul did preach the same/similar 'gospel' of Jesus and 4) Paul manifests a tremendous amount of common verbal forms and teaching content with Jesus 5) Refers his readers to the example of Jesus' life and character. :duh:

I have taken a good amount read above from Glenn Miller. See here for his whole article on Paul and Jesus: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/muslix.html

[RayOfLight]

It seems there are some here who have a misunderstanding concerning Jesus exhortation to "judge". Then, from this misunderstanding, they apply it to Paul, and say see here, Paul is expressing mean sinful judgments on people. Then conclude (from the misunderestanding of Jesus' teaching) that Paul was a false apostle. Really, they need to do some rethinking on what Jesus meant when talking about Judging, and making judgments. :Poly:

These people say (by Mike Oppenheimer): Jesus told us not to Judge." “Judge not, that ye be not judged,” No he did not. :nono: Read in its context, vs.2-5 goes on to refer to hypocritical judgment. A brother who has a beam in his own eye should not be judging the brother who may have a mote in his eye. In other words, you cannot judge another for his sin if you are guilty of the same sin. However if you take care of that sin you can help your brother.

The fact that His (Jesus') whole ministry was a judgment against the Pharisees who wanted him to agree with their way of practicing Judaism. To the Pharisees he said to their face, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh” (Matt. 12:34). He stood up to them to their face and called them “hypocrites,” “blind,” “blind guides,” “whited sepulchres,” “serpents,” and a “generation of vipers.” (read Matthew 23 to find out who the real Jesus is, not the tolerant scrawny mild manner milksop that some portray). John 3:19-21 “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” That’s judgment is it not?

Jesus in John 7:24 said to the people: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” so he is telling us to judge, and he is not contradicting himself elsewhere. Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets!” (Matthew 7:15) How could we obey and “beware” of “false prophets” unless we test them- that’s judging.

The apostles teachings are from Jesus and the spoke far more on testing and judging than even Jesus did, they named names (8 of them in the New Testament, as the prophets did in the Old Testament) and were correcting the church in their letters.

The New Testament tells us that the Spiritual man judges all things. If you are not exercising judgment then you are showing that you are not practicing the spiritual life.

So, for those of you who say that Paul was a false apostle and say we shouldn't judge, I really wonder if you sincerely mean that (both of the two statements above), because you are judging Paul and his letters, while simultaneously saying "don't judge" :rotfl:

Besides all that, you all must reject the Peter's epistles and apostolic authoratative teaching if you are serious in saying Paul was a false apostle. The apostle Peter, who knew both Jesus and Paul, said:"our dear brother Paul... wrote... with the wisdom that God gave him." So who should I believe, those of you here claiming Paul was a false apostle, or the apostle Peter who said he wrote with the wisdom God gave him? You know which one I must choose if I am to honor Yahweh.

[RayOfLight]

Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men

JesusofMessiah:
Note the bold print.This shows an exceedingly different approach to who the Son of Man / Messiah is under the doctrine of Christ Yeshua, and the letters of the gospels.

First, it seems that you either need to expand your examination of Paul's letters, or you perhaps are in need of an open mind, when approaching his letters. Also, check out other translations, to see how they render certain things. Once doing these, you will position yourself to see another perspective of Paul's letters and their harmony with the Messiah' teachings.

As for Philipians 2: 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (N.A.S.)

Notice the bold. It says the Messiah did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. Not only that, but Paul is pointing his readers to follow after the attitude and example of the Messiah. Next we have 1 Cor. 15:20 "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."

The bold sentences definately agree with the Father being greater than the Son in some sense.

Concerning the Christology of Paul, it is the same as what Jesus said in the gospels. Jesus Christ himself called our Father his “God and Father many different times in Scripture.

John 20:17 (KJV)
…I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Now as we look at what Paul had to write, we'll see that about this apsect of Jesus.

Eph. 1:17- I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

Rom. 15:6 - …so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 1:3 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort…

Eph. 1:3 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Peter also had the same thing to say about Jesus:
1 Pet. 1:3 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!

So, JesusofMessiah, it looks like your claim doesn't hold much weight. I suggest you do some rethinking, especially before you make baseless claims about that which is deemed as Scripture (Paul's letters) by Scripture (Peter). I mean, you never met and sat down with Paul, but Peter did, who walked with also walked with Jesus. In fact, Peter got his teaching from the living Jesus himself. So again, I think I will stick with Peter's teaching on this one.

[Messenger]

Messenger,

Do you believe that the non-Pauline Scriptures (the Law, the Prophets, the Writings, the Gospels, Acts, the non-Pauline epistles, and Revelation) are the infallible and authoritative word of God?

Please specify which, if any, of their Scriptures you accept as authoritative and which, if any, you do not.

(Please keep your answer brief and direct.)

I believe the OT (Law and prophets) is legit (from what I have read)

I believe there are other books removed that are legit (eg: 2 Esdras is an awesome read with accurate endtime predictions like babies born 3-4 months early will live and run about)
(eg#2: Enoch [mentioned briefly in Genesis])

I believe the gospels are legit but Luke's contradicts in several places which makes me wonder about Luke.

Luke also wrote Acts which turns into a pro-Paul exposition. (Makes me think Luke was a big Paul fan)

Luke was not one of the apostles chosen by Jesus.

I read the Pauline epistles to check them out but do not believe he was an apostle of Jesus

I think Hebrews was written by Paul (just compare to see that)

I also wonder if parts of 2 Peter were forged by Paul, or a Paul supporter in order to give the impression that the apostles tolerated Paul

[Turbo]

I believe the OT (Law and prophets) is legit (from what I have read)

I believe there are other books removed that are legit (eg: 2 Esdras is an awesome read with accurate endtime predictions like babies born 3-4 months early will live and run about)
(eg#2: Enoch [mentioned briefly in Genesis])

I believe the gospels are legit but Luke's contradicts in several places which makes me wonder about Luke.

Luke also wrote Acts which turns into a pro-Paul exposition. (Makes me think Luke was a big Paul fan)

Luke was not one of the apostles chosen by Jesus.

I read the Pauline epistles to check them out but do not believe he was an apostle of Jesus

I think Hebrews was written by Paul (just compare to see that)

I also wonder if parts of 2 Peter were forged by Paul, or a Paul supporter in order to give the impression that the apostles tolerated PaulThat's quite a conspiracy theory you've got going there. It's amazing the hoops you will jump through to explain away the Scriptures that discredit your bizarre theology.

It looks like your position in not falsifiable: You presuppose that Paul was a false teacher and then call any evidence to the contrary lies or forgeries.


But at least you recognize that Acts is "pro-Paul." Maybe you could set billwald straight sometime.


A side note about Hebrews: I have compared, and it was not written by Paul. Paul's ministry was to the gentiles, and he always identifies himself by name in his epistles.

[Messenger]

People have written much to show where Paul and Jesus agree.

Here's my problem with Paul. Please tell me how to reconcile this if you can:

WAS THERE NONE RIGHTEOUS UNDER THE LAW?

In claiming that “there is none righteous, no, not one” under the Law, Saul of Tarsus, also called Paul, contradicted the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul says that none is righteous under the law, that obedience to the law justifies no one before God, and that the law was a curse:

Ro 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Ro 3:19 - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 3:10 - For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that