Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

[Mark Tindall]

HOMESCHOOLING

Below is a critique of
http://www.brandonstaggs.com/biblical-reasons-to-home-school.html which is
typical of most Christian fundamentalist home schoolers' erroneous beliefs
on education ...mainly based on Old Testament proof verses.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> Offered here are just a handful of verses from God's word

This is one of the reasons homeschoolers should be very careful! Home
schooling has a large contingent of fundamentalists who do not value
learning
for the sake of learning. Fundamentalists think the bible is the "Word of
God'
when in fact it is an ancient collection of books about people's experience
of God. If one reads all the bible it clearly states that Jesus is the Word
of God (John 1: 1) Such verses seem not to be read by literalists. For a
fuller treatment on why the bible is NOT God's Word read John Shelby Spong's
"Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism".


> There are hundreds of reasons to reject the usage of the government
education >system, including social, moral, academic, ethical, political,
and "religious" reasons. >For a Christian, especially a Christian who values
the authority of Scripture, God's own >words on the matter should settle the
issue.


This is much the same type of introduction that Christian School advocates
give for their system to be the "one and only Christian way" to educate
children. It is simply not true in any aspect whatsoever. This is an
unsubstantiated biased claim based on subjective opinion on bible proof
verses taken out of context.

The bible cannot be used to back any particular school system.
Early Christians sent their children to classical schools. Educational
concerns about the classical schools (primary or secondary) Christians sent
their children to was not an issue in any of the New Testament letters. The
letters also fail to recognise anything concerned with church as schooling.

As William Barclay correctly pointed out:

"The New Testament lays down no kind of curriculum of training for the
child; the New Testament knows nothing about religious education and nothing
about schools; for the New Testament is certain that the only training which
really matters is given within the home, and that there are no teachers so
effective for good and evil as parents." (William Barclay, Educational
Ideals in the Ancient World, Grand Rapids, Mich: Baker Book House: 1974., p.
236)

That is NOT to say that parents are naturally good at teaching academic
subjects! While professional teachers are best at teaching facts, concepts
and skills, the changing of attitudes and value inculcation is best done by
parents who are not trained in teaching facts, concepts and skills. Use the
people best suited for what you want to achieve. It should be noted that
most home schoolers have no formal teaching qualifications whatsoever. It
is like refusing to send your child to a qualified professional surgeon to
have an operation and performing the task yourself on your kitchen table
because "as a parent I know the child better ... and surgery is only using a
knife ...which I use to cut up the meat and veg every day ... simple!" DIY
surgery is a metaphor of homeschooling.

In the 4th century the Emperor Julian challenged the Christians to take
their children out of the classical schools, where other gods were taught,
and to retreat to their own schools where they could be taught out of
"Matthew and Luke". He was determined to force on Christians the educational
consequences of the New Testament. The Emperor Julian uses the word
"anetos" to describe the children of Christian parents ... it means
"mindless". He suggested that they be cured by an Hellenistic education.
However, children were not penalised because of their parent's beliefs and
the classical schools remained open to all people. Two people named
Apollinaris (father and son) converted the bible into pseudo-classical
literature with the Pentateuch as a Homeric epic and the gospels as Platonic
dialogues because Julian compelled Christians to to work from texts written
in sub-classical Greek.

In subsequent centuries Christians developed a quasi-educational system to
teach the New Testament but this did not come into conflict with classical
schooling in any practical manner. basil, Bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia,
wrote "To Young Men on the Advantages of Greek Literature" which suggested
that pupils need not be corrupted by their work, but the onus was upon
parents (and also secondarily teachers) within the church to train them in
Christian belief after school.

The historical fact is that Christians educated their children fully within
the secular system for the first four centuries after Christ's death in
spite of any contradiction that might have posed. They contradicted any
negative influence by biblical training at church and home.

Alternate schooling by fundamentalists, including home schooling, is a
reaction of their intimidated by pluralism and modernity. Jesus speaks of
being salt and light in the world not of running away from it. There would
be far fewer home schools if the world was stuck back in the 1950s where
fundamentalists wish to drag everybody.

> So here we attempt to explain a conviction we have through the only
objective way >possible: Holy Scripture.

Actually this is a very biased way which only works if you are a
fundamentalist. Other Christians, like myself, do take the bible as the
final word on anything. A Christian is meant to use their God given brain.
This explanation is also not useful for Moslems, Buddhists, Jews, Atheists,
Agnostics, etc etc etc.

Universal schooling is a modern invention and a culturally determined
phenomenon. As a result direct appeal to the bible as "proof" for a
schooling system is inadmissible.

The bible uses terms associated with the teaching ministry within a church
and educational metaphors but these cannot be honestly transposed to support
any Christian schooling concept. The Greeks had discussed education in much
the same terms as we do today by the time of Jesus ... but this is NOT what
the New Testament mentions.

The sacrifice that pleases God is that which engages the mind. (Romans
12:1).

> a heathen school

They are PUBLIC schools open to all, not "heathen" schools .... which is a
pejorative term. Should one also refer to home schooling as "home skooling"
in the same manner?

There are many well educated professional teachers working in the public
schools who are Christians. I was one of them!

It saddens me that there are so many Christian parents in home schooling who
refuse to critically reflect on their choice of homeschooling and who
constantly demonise anyone who disagrees with them. I have been referred to
as a "troll" by people far less qualified to speak on the matter of
education and who have far less understanding of the bible.

Furthermore, there seems to be no professional educational reading of any
high quality done by homeschoolers. Having refused to even consider
criticism their
refuge is in poorly written fundamentalist "books" which no worthy academic
educational journal would consider publishing. As a result they are left to
wander in a sea of mutual ignorance. It is not their ignorance that
worries me as much as the damage they do to innocent children who deserve
much better than the amateurish witchdoctor type "edjakashun" of home
schooling.

I have pointed out some of the many huge problems in DIY amateurish
homeskoolin' which include:

- the erroneous notion that anyone can educate a child
- the concern over fundamentalist / conservative theological opinions being
dominant in educational practice
- indoctrination rather than education
- faulty premises in philosophy of education
- poor socialisation
- no accountability
- lack of teaching supervsion
- lack of quality controls and quality assurance
- lack of importance given to educational record keeping
- over protection in a "mommy bubble"
- over reliance on wives to homeschool causing an imbalance of male / female
role models
- the seige mentality of homeskoolin' (us vs them)
- the conspiracy theory of state intrusion
- lack of adequate training
- lact of critical reflection to remediate indequacies and incompetencies
- lack of reflective practice
- confusion between testing, assessment and evaluation
- reliance on phonics for reading
- the erroneous notion that creation psdeudo-science can replace science in
a good educational curriculum
- over reliance on commercial resources
- in ability to choose best and most appropriate commercial resources
- erroneous opinion that the state has no right to impose a minimum
competency in the education of children
- erroneous opinion that they can experiement with children to find out if
homeskoolin' works and then, with they find it doesn't, place the children
back in proper education

Maybe homeschool is just amateurish "I feel I can teach it so I'll have a go
and see what happens". Like DIY brain surgery .... "I FEEL I can do brain
surgery so I will experiment on my kids to find out ....I've read several
DIY brain surgery books .... and attended several DIY brain surgery seminars
....Here we go! ... Oops! Made a mistake! Better take them to a DIY brain
surgery hospital ........Oops! The DIY brain surgery hospital made a
mistake~! .... Better send the kids to a real hospital with professional
doctors who know what they are doing ...Oops! Too late! The kids are dead."


Anyone care to discuss?:think:

[wholearmor]

I'd like to discuss why people feel they have to post 6-monitor-length messages.

[BillyBob]

Me too!

You go first....

[wholearmor]

No...you go first...

[BillyBob]

I counted 7.....

[Mark Tindall]

Is it possible to discuss a complicated item in one word??? :confused:

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by BillyBob
I counted 7.....

......bottles?

[BillyBob]

...so far!!!!

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by BillyBob
...so far!!!!

:chuckle:

OK...now back to the serious discussion at hand...

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Is it possible to discuss a complicated item in one word??? :confused: Maybe you could start by making a single point or two and then we could go from there.

Also...
Its a tad difficult to tell in your initial post who is talking, you? Another author? etc.

What summarized point would you like to discuss?

P.S. Welcome to TOL. :D

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Knight
Maybe you could start by making a single point or two and then we could go from there.

Also...
Its a tad difficult to tell in your initial post who is talking, you? Another author? etc.

What summarized point would you like to discuss?

P.S. Welcome to TOL. :D

Now why didn't I think of that? That's why you're 'da boss, Knight!

[Knight]

WA... BB... lets not hijack every thread... OK? :mad: :)

[BillyBob]

Just so you know, Mark, most of us here at TOL [the Christians, anyway] support homeschooling and many of us are homeschoolers....

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Knight
WA... BB... lets not hijack every thread... OK? :mad: :)

This one deserved it IMHO...especially when I saw John Shelby Spong's name mentioned.

[BillyBob]

OK Knight......it's been a little slow around here lately. :D

[BillyBob]

WA;
This one deserved it IMHO...especially when I saw John Shelby Spong's name mentioned.

Billy;
You actually read the post?

[Mark Tindall]

Ok ...have pity on the newbie ...don't bite his head off immediately ... my first post to this sandpit ...so this is more like chat is it????

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by BillyBob
WA;
This one deserved it IMHO...especially when I saw John Shelby Spong's name mentioned.

Billy;
You actually read the post?

Only to John Shelby Spong's name. That's all I needed to read. That's when I decided hijacking it was necessary.

[Mark Tindall]

I support the concept of homeschooling if done well. Hoever, the lack of professionalism in the movement is a problem. It is thes areas that need to be discussed.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Ok ...have pity on the newbie ...don't bite his head off immediately ... my first post to this sandpit ...so this is more like chat is it???? :D

Its OK... your new! We understand!!!

TOL is designed to be.... point vs. counter point.

So therefore... what we like to do here is start with a "bite sized" point and then go from there.

That way... the debate is easy to read and easy to participate in.

So... where do you want to start?

[BillyBob]

OK Mark, I guess you have been sufficiently hazed. What beef do you have with Homeschooling, we can start there.

[Mark Tindall]

My Christian belief as an Exiled Believer (John Shelby Spong's term) should not by a subject in a discussion on homeschoolling. Try to keep it on topic.

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I support the concept of homeschooling if done well. Hoever, the lack of professionalism in the movement is a problem. It is thes areas that need to be discussed.

Do you feel the level of professionalism in the public schools is where it should be?

[BillyBob]

Hey Mark, you have a Basenji?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I support the concept of homeschooling if done well. Hoever, the lack of professionalism in the movement is a problem. It is thes areas that need to be discussed. OK... that's a fair criticism.

Let me ask you something....

In your opinion what is worse?

Poor homeschooling

or.....

Poor public schooling?

[Mark Tindall]

Ah ......did anyone have time to read the post????

[BillyBob]

Is that off-topic? [the Besenji thing]

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
My Christian belief as an Exiled Believer (John Shelby Spong's term) should not by a subject in a discussion on homeschoolling. Try to keep it on topic. OK, but you do realize what a wacky nut Spong is right?

[Mark Tindall]

How can I post to each reply???? Still figuring on this new fangled technology!!!!

Yes, my wife and I have two basenjis. One female of 12 years and a a young (4 month) male puppy. For tjhose not in tyhe know a basenji is an African hound that does not bark (it howls like a dingo), that preens itself like a cat ...and they can climb trees!

PS excuse any spellng mistakes .....

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
How can I post to each reply???? Still figuring on this new fangled technology!!!!

Yes, my wife and I have two basenjis. One female of 12 years and a a young (4 month) male puppy. For tjhose not in tyhe know a basenji is an African hound that does not bark (it howls like a dingo), that preens itself like a cat ...and they can climb trees!

PS excuse any spellng mistakes .....

Man oh man...all the attributes of an animal I would hate. I'm glad you're not my neighbor.

[Mark Tindall]

I think all good education is worthy no matter what the system but any educational system that does not contain good education is unworthy. I have taught in public schools and Christian schools.

So ...yes pubklic schools ahve their fauklts. this is amtter which publkic school teachers critically reflect upon. Unfortunately I have not seen the same level of critical reflection in homeschools.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
PS excuse any spellng mistakes ..... No problem, we realize you have a public school background. :)

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I think all good education is worthy no matter what the system but any educational system that does not contain good education is unworthy. I have taught in public schools and Christian schools.

So ...yes pubklic schools ahve their fauklts. this is amtter which publkic school teachers critically reflect upon. Unfortunately I have not seen the same level of critical reflection in homeschools.

You're a teacher? :confused: If you turned a paper in to me typed like that you'd get a big, fat, red "F."

[BillyBob]

WA;
Man oh man...all the attributes of an animal I would hate. I'm glad you're not my neighbor.

Billy;
You have a problem with animals that can't spell?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I think all good education is worthy no matter what the system but any educational system that does not contain good education is unworthy. I have taught in public schools and Christian schools.

So ...yes pubklic schools ahve their fauklts. this is amtter which publkic school teachers critically reflect upon. Unfortunately I have not seen the same level of critical reflection in homeschools. OK... but that isn't an answer to my question.

In your opinion what is worse?

Poor homeschooling

or.....

Poor public schooling?

[BillyBob]

I'm not buying this, guys. Sorry.

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by BillyBob
WA;
Man oh man...all the attributes of an animal I would hate. I'm glad you're not my neighbor.

Billy;
You have a problem with animals that can't spell?

:chuckle:

[Mark Tindall]

Ok ...the spelling is because of the typing ...I don't type well ... that i acknowledge ...also I'm not writing a paper ... I'm discussing ... now and then the fingers will slip on the wrong key ...keep it to the ideas not the character, or the spelling, or the basenjis ...or John Shelby Spong ...though I may probably talk about him and his mentors within the discussion at some point.

[Mark Tindall]

Whay aren't you buying??? ... I'm not selling anything!!!!

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Ok ...the spelling is because of the typing ...I don't type well ... that i acknowledge ...also I'm not writing a paper ... I'm discussing ... now and then the fingers will slip on the wrong key ...

When you were a teacher, would you have accepted that excuse from your students that turned in a paper typed like that? If not, are we here at TOL less deserving of well-typed posts?

[BillyBob]

Hey Mark, why don't you get a spell checker?

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Whay aren't you buying??? ... I'm not selling anything!!!!

Everybody's selling something.

[BillyBob]

I think we lost Mark.

WA, you chased him away!

Did he say he was a teacher? I read some of his Looooong post, he seemed mainly interested in the Christian perspective of homeschooling.

[wholearmor]

BillyBob:
Did he say he was a teacher?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I have taught in public schools and Christian schools.[QUOTE]

WA:
Yep.

[Mark Tindall]

Ok ...trying to slow down the typing to help with the spelling ......... What is worse poor homeschooling or poor public school education? Neither. The question is invalid. If both are poor in the same areas it doesn't matter what system you are in. The quality matters! The problem is in the quality of whatever system you choose. One big problem for home schooling is the insistence that ANYONE can educate another person. This is the homeschool mantra based on the assumption that education is merely an extension of mothering.

.. .checking typing ... I'm using Quick Reply and don't know how to put spell checker through that option .... I'll learn eventually ... give me time .....

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by BillyBob
I think we lost Mark.

WA, you chased him away!

Did he say he was a teacher? I read some of his Looooong post, he seemed mainly interested in the Christian perspective of homeschooling.

I read some of it too. It's probably worth discussing but he started out alienating me with his unnecessarily long introductory post.

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Ok ...trying to slow down the typing to help with the spelling ......... What is worse poor homeschooling or poor public school education? Neither. The question is invalid. If both are poor in the same areas it doesn't matter what system you are in. The quality matters! The problem is in the quality of whatever system you choose. One big problem for home schooling is the insistence that ANYONE can educate another person. This is the homeschool mantra based on the assumption that education is merely an extension of mothering.

.. .checking typing ... I'm using Quick Reply and don't know how to put spell checker through that option .... I'll learn eventually ... give me time .....

I know people that home-school and hire a tutor for any subject they're not comfortable enough trying to teach.

[Mark Tindall]

NO-ONE chase me away! Yes I am a teacher. What do you want speed in typing (and therefre speedy answer with mistakes) or accurateness in typing (and therefore longer wait without mistakes ...hopefully)? .......What were we talking about again?????

[Mark Tindall]

Not wishing to alienate anyone. I don't teach typing ...and never learnt it though I have written and published several books.

[Mark Tindall]

Picking on typing mistakes is petty. Picking on character is petty. Address the ideas not the person. Yes ...I am interested in a Christian approach to education. I am interested in critical reflection on flaws in order to help.

[Knight]

Mark settle down... its OK.

Breath deep.

Do you seriously believe that a poor public education is equally as bad as a poor homeschool education?

The worst thing that can happen to a homeschool kid is that he get a insufficient education.

Now compare that to a public school student.

[Mark Tindall]

Yes - I believe poor education in any system is poor education.

You have mentioned consequences as result of the system one is in. Each system has flaws and good points.

You said:

The worst thing that can happen to a homeschool kid is that he get a insufficient education.

Now compare that to a public school student.

TYhe same thing happens an insufficient education. What else do you believe jhappens in either cause? i do not understand your argument.

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
What do you want speed in typing (and therefre speedy answer with mistakes) or accurateness in typing (and therefore longer wait without mistakes ...hopefully)?

Well, since you asked, I want speed in typing with accuracy.

[wholearmor]

Mark Tindall, do you believe that girls in public middle school and high school are sexually harrassed on practically a daily basis?

[Mark Tindall]

Speed typing with accuracy is not an option for me. We all have our liabilities ... that is mine.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
TYhe same thing happens an insufficient education. What else do you believe jhappens in either cause? i do not understand your argument. Mark.... public school is a breeding ground (pun intended) of teenage pregnancy, drugs, sexual abuse, poor social habits, suicide and death.

Or have you not been paying attention to what is going on around you?

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Speed typing with accuracy is not an option for me. We all have our liabilities ... that is mine.

Unless you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, speed typing is an option for you. If you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, I'm sorry and withdraw my criticism.

[Mark Tindall]

Mark Tindall, do you believe that girls in public middle school and high school are sexually harrassed on practically a daily basis?


It depends on the definition of "sexully harrasssed" ...and what country and area you are talking about. I live in the Land Down Under, OZ! Public schools in Australia do not tolerate any form of sexual harrassment. that does not mean it doesn't happen. When it is reported or detected teachers (and legal authorities) come down very hard on the culprits.

[Mark Tindall]

Unless you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, speed typing is an option for you. If you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, I'm sorry and withdraw my criticism.



Ad hominem attack. Attack the ideas not the person. Otherwise bye - bye. Do you understand?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Unless you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, speed typing is an option for you. If you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, I'm sorry and withdraw my criticism.



Ad hominem attack. Attack the ideas not the person. Otherwise bye - bye. Do you understand? I don't think WA's comment was "Ad hominem attack".

Maybe you need to relax a tad and read the posts before you comment. Just a suggestion from one friend to another. :D

[wholearmor]

WA:
Unless you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, speed typing is an option for you. If you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, I'm sorry and withdraw my criticism.

Mark Tindall:
Ad hominem attack. Attack the ideas not the person. Otherwise bye - bye. Do you understand?

WA:
You need to seriously lighten up, dude. My statement was not an attack. I'm simply saying that unless you have a mental or physical handicap that would prevent you from typing speedily and accurately, that you can learn to type that way. It was a simple statement of fact, not an attack.

[Mark Tindall]

Mark.... public school is a breeding ground (pun intended) of teenage pregnancy, drugs, sexual abuse, poor social habits, suicide and death.

Or have you not been paying attention to what is going on around you?

*****************

How do I insert your comments easily??? Help!

Public school is a reflection of the society that everyone lives in. Are you saying that public school causes these problems? I disagree. The majority of moral and ethical training a child receives is from the home ...and public school teachers cannot change it to a great degree. That is why I am against the isoltaionist ague ments put forward by homeschoolers. (Returning to the subject matter) The same arguments are put forward by Christian Schools. It is merely a fear of modernity. A reaction to something else is not a positve argument for an item. The 'mummy (mommy in USA?) bubble' should be dispensed with.

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Public school is a reflection of the society that everyone lives in.

Exactly! You just made the BEST argument for homeschooling I've seen lately!

[ebenz47037]

Okay, Mark. I'll take this one topic at a time. All right?

- the erroneous notion that anyone can educate a child

I believe that anyone can teach what he or she does to someone else. Personality is going to come into this sometimes. So, just because you can teach your thing to Joe Blow doesn't mean that you can teach it to John Doe. There may be a difference in learning styles or just a personality clash between you and John Doe that makes it impossible for you to educate him at all.

- the concern over fundamentalist / conservative theological opinions being dominant in educational practice

That again is a matter that doesn't apply to everyone who chooses to homeschool. I happen to be a conservative, fundamentalist Christian. But, I don't expect my daughter to just accept what I teach her about relion or politics blindly. I make her investigate.

- indoctrination rather than education

The definition of indoctrination is:

1. To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.

2. To imbue with a partisan or ideological point of view: a generation of children who had been indoctrinated against the values of their parents.

So, if you go by the definition of the word, anyone who is an educator somehow indoctrinates his or her students. I have never met a teacher in public or private schools or a homeschooling parent who doesn't allow his or her believes to somehow come into what their teaching.

- faulty premises in philosophy of education

Explain what you mean by this to me, please.

- poor socialisation

The homeschooled children I've met are far better socialized than the public schooled children I've met. Socializing with one's on age group for 6 to 8 hours a day does not reflect real life. And, that 's what public and private schooled students do. Homeschooled children, on the other hand, spend time with several age groups. They tend (from what I've seen) to respect authority more than non-homeschooled children.


- no accountability
- lack of teaching supervsion

I decided to tackle these two together. Just because I choose not to be accountable to the public schools doesn't mean I never have been, Mark. I used to teach my daughter for a charter school. I have also taught Spanish in a private school. So, I do know how to teach.

I've been teaching my daughter for seven years now (not counting before she actually attended private school for two years and public school for 2 months).

I follow the state law for homeschooling in my state. Right now, that law is that I teach for 180 days per year and keep attendance. I do keep records of my daughter's grades for myself on cdrom. Those will come in handy later when/if she decides to go to college. My daughter keeps about a low A/high B gpa.

Why do you assume that only "real" educators can teach children?

I'll do more later. Don't want to clog up the server.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Knight
Mark.... public school is a breeding ground (pun intended) of teenage pregnancy, drugs, sexual abuse, poor social habits, suicide and death.

Or have you not been paying attention to what is going on around you?

Knight, Mark is in Australia. He hasn't seen the public schools in our country. I'm guessing that public schools in Australia are not battle fields like the ones here are.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
How do I insert your comments easily??? Help!

Look at the lower right-hand (your right) corner of the message you're wanting to reply to. You'll see the word "quote." Click on it and the message you want to quote will come up on a reply screen.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Public school is a reflection of the society that everyone lives in. Are you saying that public school causes these problems? I disagree. The majority of moral and ethical training a child receives is from the home ...and public school teachers cannot change it to a great degree. That is why I am against the isoltaionist ague ments put forward by homeschoolers. (Returning to the subject matter) The same arguments are put forward by Christian Schools. It is merely a fear of modernity. A reaction to something else is not a positve argument for an item. The 'mummy (mommy in USA?) bubble' should be dispensed with.

Actually, you're wrong about the attitudes coming only from the home. In the U.S., public schools are a battle field. Good teachers are few and far between. And, those good teachers tend to burn out early in their careers because it is so hard to find students who haven't been affected negatively by the public school experiences they've already had.

It started going down-hill in this country when the government started telling us how to raise our children. In some states, parents are not allowed to discipline their children at all. Therefore, the children learn that they can do whatever they want and will get away with it. Personally, I respect parents that teach their children that there are consequences for their choices in life more than I respect parents who seem to think that the only way a child can really "learn anything is to have total freedom to do as he/she wants."

[Knight]

Mark when you get time you can check out the FAQ (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/misc.php?s=&action=faq).

There is great info and instructions on posting here at TOL.

Thanks for your participation!

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
It started going down-hill in this country when the government started telling us how to raise our children.

Take note of the black community in many cases. They're quality of life started taking a turn for the worse as soon as they started allowing the government to be the daddy of their families.

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Look at the lower right-hand (your right) corner of the message you're wanting to reply to. You'll see the word "quote." Click on it and the message you want to quote will come up on a reply screen.


Thanks! That helps!!! Still trying to get used to this format. :)

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Thanks! That helps!!! Still trying to get used to this format. :)

That's all right. If you need more help, feel free to ask.

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by wholearmor
Exactly! You just made the BEST argument for homeschooling I've seen lately!


We live a Western society that is both post-Christian and post-modernist. One cannot shield a child from that fact. Critically reflect on the following:

From John Milton's "Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New York:1951] p. 25 "Banish all objects of lust, shut up all youth into the severest discipline that can be exercised in any hermitage, ye cannot make them chaste that came not thither so ..."

Isolation from the world is not a cure!

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Knight, Mark is in Australia. He hasn't seen the public schools in our country. I'm guessing that public schools in Australia are not battle fields like the ones here are.

Correct ...I'm an Aussie!

Public schools are unconcerned about homeschooling in Australia.

My guess is that Christians in the USA have seen that Christian Schools are expensive ....and they will not get their way with professional educators in that system any more than a professional educator in a public school .... and have opted for total control.

I do not think homeschooling is a good option for the majority of people. It works best for a small minority who have been professional educators and whose child / children require intensive intervention as a result of some problem.

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by wholearmor
Take note of the black community in many cases. They're quality of life started taking a turn for the worse as soon as they started allowing the government to be the daddy of their families.


Take note also that Christian Schools rapidly rose when public schools desegregated and people of other other races were allowed to mix with whites. Unfortunately most Christians fear change and the "other". This has motivated many of the fads in Christian education which are mere reactions rather than well thought out innovations.

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by Knight
Mark when you get time you can check out the FAQ (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/misc.php?s=&action=faq).

There is great info and instructions on posting here at TOL.

Thanks for your participation!


Thanks again! I have book marked the FAQ to read later.

So many posts and so little time to answer! Most have raised good points that I do want to address ...probably in bits and pieces as they appear over the next few days.


Think I'll stick with this topic for a while till I get used to things. I sense a lot of fear and misunderstanding on both sides of the public school vs homeschool debate.

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Okay, Mark. I'll take this one topic at a time. All right?


I believe that anyone can teach what he or she does to someone else.

I will likewise repond in bits and pieces. You bring up some points that do need discussion in this area.

I prefer the term educate to teach because this shows the difference between parenting and pedagogy.

I start off with a few questions that I have posted elsewhere (where I am called a troll and repeatedly abused by the Christian homeschoolers for daring to question their poor educational practice!)

What do you think the term "educate" means? What is a "good education"?

Also realise that the term "anyone" means any person at all ... e.g. a subintelligent housewife with multiple learning difficulties or a vegetative accident victim in an intensive care ward of a hospital. Only SOME people are able to educate a child. What people might that be? What skills and knowledge must they possess? What is required to educate a child? Is education really only an extension of mummy parenting preschool kids? What competencies must a person have in order to be able to educate another? Shouldn't these competencies be pre-assessed as they are with professional educators in public schools?

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Correct ...I'm an Aussie!

Public schools are unconcerned about homeschooling in Australia.

My guess is that Christians in the USA have seen that Christian Schools are expensive ....and they will not get their way with professional educators in that system any more than a professional educator in a public school .... and have opted for total control.

I do not think homeschooling is a good option for the majority of people. It works best for a small minority who have been professional educators and whose child / children require intensive intervention as a result of some problem.

LOL! Mark, I've dealt with "professional" educators in both the public and private sector when it comes to my daughter's education. Both have shot me down as far as my daughter's education is concerned. All of her teachers (prior to myself) said that there was no excuse for a child to be that far ahead of her peers. Her kindergarten teacher (Christian school) wanted to hold her back a year because she was shy around strangers. What five year old isn't? Her first grade teacher (also Christian school) kept telling me that she was disrupting the class during the day. So, I went and sat in on the classroom. I figured out why my daughter disrupted the class (even though she didn't do it while I was there). The teacher would not call on my daughter at all to read aloud or to do problems on the chalkboard or to answer questions. She called on several children who could barely read or didn't know how to do the problems she wanted done on the board or who didn't know the answers to her questions. My daughter knew the answers and wanted to show her teacher that she did. When I got my daughter's progress report, the teacher had written that my daughter refused to participate in class. It didn't look that way to me. And, I talked to this teacher everyday when I picked my daughter up from school. She didn't tell me any of this until one week before the school year ended. My daughter's second grade teacher (public school) told me that my daughter was just then supposed to be starting to learn to read. But, my daughter was reading short paperbacks for fun as opposed to fighting over learning to read like her classmates. So, after talking to the teacher and the principal, my husband and I decided to pull her out of the public school and homeschool her.

No. I don't have a teaching certificate. But, why does a piece of paper make someone a better teacher than I am? It doesn't. A Christian school realized that and asked me to teach their Spanish class two years ago.

I have been a widow for almost five years, now. I put my daughter back in public school for the first half of the 1999-2000 school year. When I did, I told the principal that she was a very intelligent child and if she got bored, she would refuse to do the work. He said that they had no problem with that and that they would just have to challenge her mentally. I had weekly meetings with her teacher to make sure things went smoothly. But, when the semester ended and I got her report card, my daughter had Cs, Ds, and Fs in every subject. I asked her teacher how this could be happening since she never related the problem to me. Her teacher said that most of it had to do with the fact that when bored because the work was too easy, my daughter tended to go ahead in the books instead of doing what was assigned. I had warned the principal of this at the beginning of the school year. The teacher told me that he had told her this. My daughter's report card should have reflected her true work and not was expected of her age group/grade. I pulled her back out and homeschooled her again.

Mark, my daughter has chosen homeschooling ever since that year because (as she puts it) I don't call her stupid like her fourth grade teacher did.

I have had a lot of bad experiences with my daughter and public and private schools. I won't trust either of them again with my daughter's education. I pray that she chooses to go to college in five years, but that will be her choice. I have no doubt with the way I keep records and the way my daughter tests that she will be welcomed in any college that she wishes to attend.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I will likewise repond in bits and pieces. You bring up some points that do need discussion in this area.

I prefer the term educate to teach because this shows the difference between parenting and pedagogy.

I start off with a few questions that I have posted elsewhere (where I am called a troll and repeatedly abused by the Christian homeschoolers for daring to question their poor educational practice!)

What do you think the term "educate" means? What is a "good education"?

Also realise that the term "anyone" means any person at all ... e.g. a subintelligent housewife with multiple learning difficulties or a vegetative accident victim in an intensive care ward of a hospital. Only SOME people are able to educate a child. What people might that be? What skills and knowledge must they possess? What is required to educate a child? Is education really only an extension of mummy parenting preschool kids? What competencies must a person have in order to be able to educate another?

When I say "educate" or "teach," I pretty much mean the same thing. To teach (or educate) someone, you are training them with new skills, behaviours, etc. A good education is one that produces productive citizens who do not need to live on the public dole if they're healthy and able.

When I say "anyone can teach someone else to do what they do," I'm also talking about healthy and able-bodied people.

A "subintelligent housewife (I guess I would fall into that category for you, Mark.)" might be able to educate her children, if she realizes the different learning styles that are required. I am dyslexic, Mark. I was diagnosed when I was in the sixth grade. Yet, I have no problem reading or teaching my child.

To educate children in general (I don't like this phrase because I don't believe in generalized education), a person must be patient enough to handle the everyday difficulties that come with these children. It would be nice, but it's not necessary, for someone to have a college degree in education or the subject they're planning to teach. A person does not need to have a large knowledge of psychology to teach either. To teach, a person should be able to express their thoughts and ideas verbally (aloud). They have to know how to read (that's a given).

Education is more than an extension of "mummy parenting pre school kids." You've seen my examples of how the public and Christian schools here have reacted to my daughter. I don't want my daughter to think that the only way people will like her is if she doesn't show that she's as smart or smarter than some people. I was taught that. It almost ruined me. I was like my daughter when I was a child. I was bored to tears in the public school system. Up until I was in the fourth grade, they had advanced classes for me. After that, I was expected to stay just even with the rest of the class. I rarely did the seat work because I was so bored. I read encyclopaedias for fun. I never failed a test. I breezed through the rest of elementary, junior high, and high school with flying colors. I would have gone on to college, but I didn't want my parents to have to pay for it. So, I chose not to go. My mistake. I have a savings account set up for my daughter's college education, if she chooses to go.

Shouldn't these competencies be pre-assessed as they are with professional educators in public schools?

Now, why would you think I would say yes to this question after I've explained my story and my daughter's story? There's no way that I would trust the people who assess the competencies of the "professional" educators in public schools. Why should I? If they're letting "professional" educators like the ones I've had to deal with work in the schools with children, why should I trust their judgement at all?

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
LOL! Mark, I've dealt with "professional" educators in both the public and private sector when it comes to my daughter's education. Both have shot me down as far as my daughter's education is concerned. All of her teachers (prior to myself) said that there was no excuse for a child to be that far ahead of her peers.


G'day again! We've talked about some of this elsewhere but it is good to go over main points for others reading the thread. Homeschooling CAN be a good choice to make. It can also be a bad choice. There are many factors involved.

Yes, there are good and bad in all systems. There is no reason to stop a student from going as far ahead as they are capable of and of being extended to their full ability. Any school system has the capability to do so. If you don't succeed with your child's teacher then work your way up the chain of command ... or put your grievance straight to the top of the hierarchy if it is something that is VERY serious. However make sure that your child IS gifted and it is not just your opinion. Have your child tested by a qualified educational psychologist. These are attached to public schools in Australia but I am not certain of their availability elsewhere.

Do you need a piece of paper to be a good educator? I don't think so. Jesus and Socrates are examples of great teachers who did not have a teaching degree ... BUT you DO need the requisite competencies. From my dealings with homeschoolers the requisite competencies are not always there. That is a problem.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
G'day again! We've talked about some of this elsewhere but it is good to go over main points for others reading the thread. Homeschooling CAN be a good choice to make. It can also be a bad choice. There are many factors involved.

Yes, there are good and bad in all systems. There is no reason to stop a student from going as far ahead as they are capable of and of being extended to their full ability. Any school system has the capability to do so. If you don't succeed with your child's teacher then work your way up the chain of command ... or put your grievance straight to the top of the hierarchy if it is something that is VERY serious. However make sure that your child IS gifted and it is not just your opinion. Have your child tested by a qualified educational psychologist. These are attached to public schools in Australia but I am not certain of their availability elsewhere.

Do you need a piece of paper to be a good educator? I don't think so. Jesus and Socrates are examples of great teachers who did not have a teaching degree ... BUT you DO need the requisite competencies. From my dealings with homeschoolers the requisite competencies are not always there. That is a problem.

I have never had my daughter tested. In the public schools that she attended, whenever I would suggest that, the idea would be shot down ("We don't believe in those tests anymore, Mrs. Benz!" or "Your child's too young to be considered 'gifted', Mrs. Benz!"...etc...). I cannot afford to pay for the testing myself. But, as it stands right now, if we ever get to the point where I cannot teach her what she wants/needs to learn, I will find someone who can. It doesn't matter whether I teach it or not. It does matter that she learns what she needs/wants to learn.

You've said before that the homeschoolers you've dealt with don't have the requisite competencies on the newsgroup. Yet, I've never seen you state what the requisite competencies are. Care to shed some light on that matter for me?

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
When I say "educate" or "teach," I pretty much mean the same thing. To teach (or educate) someone, you are training them with new skills, behaviours, etc.

I use educate to mean the widest umbrella that encompases teaching, training, tutoring etc. Whe one trains a mechnical apprentice it is a form of education but not necessarily teaching.


A good education is one that produces productive citizens who do not need to live on the public dole if they're healthy and able.


I think education includes the making of productive citizens but it is also preparedness for life in all its aspects. I think one's status as unemployed or not is not an issue in the definition of the term. I have met many good and well educated people that are unemployed. These are economic circumstances which are unrelated to education. e.g. The unemployed music professor I met was on the dole because of the closure oif his department at the university. Music classes at the uni do not make enough money whereas more students wanted to do economics! He was also the victim of fraud. Each case must be asesed on its own merit.



A "subintelligent housewife (I guess I would fall into that category for you, Mark.)"


Hardly!


might be able to educate her children, if she realizes the different learning styles that are required.


"Might" is a conditioner and I agree. However, education is much more than understanding learning styles. It is also matching teaching style to learning style (amongst a thousand other variables!)


a person must be patient ... not need to have a large knowledge of psychology .... able to express their thoughts and ideas verbally (aloud) ... know how to read (that's a given).


I think there is MUCH more necessary than those few items, which although important, do not relate greatly to the educational task. If one wants to educate one has to know HOW to educate including educational theory and methodolgy. This is best done, for homeschoolers, through mentorship.


Education is more than an extension of "mummy parenting pre school kids."

I think so! However many of the homeschoolers I have spoken with think that because they have parented their children they can also educate others. Professional teachers may also have children (I have three ...one who I taught in a Chrstian School) however they still need to do their 4 years of university study to becoame a teacher in Australia. If education was that easy then no qualification would be needed to be a teacher in a public school.

It is also of utmost importance that homeschoolers rid themselves of this image that their teaching is merely "an extension of mummy parenting pre school kids". I am sure that the arguments presented by homeschoolers have damaged their cause in this respect.

To be valued in the educational community one must speak the lingo and know the trends. Homeschoolers do neither! Homeschoolers present themselves as "an extension of mummy parenting pre school kids". Their reasons for homeschooling are not positive reasions (because it is GOOD ... a welcoming response to the "Other") but rather they are negative reasons (public schoooling is BAD ...a fearful response to the "Other"). This is why knowledge of critical reflection would greatly help homeschoolers.



I don't want my daughter to think that the only way people will like her is if she doesn't show that she's as smart or smarter than some people.


As Christians we should value all people as all are made in the image of God. Ubnfortunately the world does not hold that view and values people on their education, wealth, and job ...not necessarily in that order!



I was bored to tears in the public school system.


So was I! In early primary school (elementary school?) I was classified as sub- intelligent because I failed an IQ test dismally (less than 70!) I had looked out the window thinking about other things at the time of the test. I was failing most of the exams for the same reason. Learning about Spot the dog and Jim and Mary didn't interest me. My inspiration was a public school teacher (and a Catholic) who saw my boredom and rectified it. (I have kept in contact with him for the past 40 years ...a great bloke!) He told me the tests were important and asked if I could I help try. I was retested and came out with very high score (120+) I went from the bottom of the 200 people in my year to 1st in a period of 6 months ...and have never looked back since. I choose teaching as a profession because I wanted to help people in exactly the same way that I had been helped.


There's no way that I would trust the people who assess the competencies of the "professional" educators in public schools. Why should I? If they're letting "professional" educators like the ones I've had to deal with work in the schools with children, why should I trust their judgement at all?


There are good and bad in all fields ...and all shades between. One searches for the good and spits out the bad ... and trusts goodness and truth. "Ain't no-body perfick!" as I used to tell my pupils (with the incorrect spelling to make a point!) I have met good and bad public school educators ...but I have also met a far higher percentage of poor homeschoolers.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I use educate to mean the widest umbrella that encompases teaching, training, tutoring etc. Whe one trains a mechnical apprentice it is a form of education but not necessarily teaching.

But, the apprentice must be taught how to do what he's doing. Doesn't he? See? For me "teaching" is the umbrella. :) It includes all that you've mentioned above.


I think education includes the making of productive citizens but it is also preparedness for life in all its aspects. I think one's status as unemployed or not is not an issue in the definition of the term. I have met many good and well educated people that are unemployed. These are economic circumstances which are unrelated to education. e.g. The unemployed music professor I met was on the dole because of the closure oif his department at the university. Music classes at the uni do not make enough money whereas more students wanted to do economics! He was also the victim of fraud. Each case must be asesed on its own merit.

But, if a person remains unemployed and on the state welfare roles year after year after year, something went wrong in the educating process. I, too, have met many good and well-educated people who were unemployed. These people (who were well-educated) did not stay unemployed. We have that problem a lot in the United States. Too many people come out of the public school system not prepared for life in general. Right now, if a teenage girl gets pregnant in high school, she can finish out high school. They have daycare centers at some schools. But, the end result of this girl's education is not that she's prepared for real life. She feels that she will be taken care of because as soon as her baby was born, she got welfare and food stamps and a free education that came equipped with a free babysitter. After finishing school, she goes out into the real world and has several more children on welfare.


Hardly!

I'll take that as a compliment and thank you for it. :chuckle:

"Might" is a conditioner and I agree. However, education is much more than understanding learning styles. It is also matching teaching style to learning style (amongst a thousand other variables!)

I don't think that every parent is the best educator for their child. But, I, like many here on TOL, believe that a bad homeschool education is better than a bad public school education. All I did was give you the basics of what I believe about educating children.


I think there is MUCH more necessary than those few items, which although important, do not relate greatly to the educational task. If one wants to educate one has to know HOW to educate including educational theory and methodolgy. This is best done, for homeschoolers, through mentorship.

The thing is that in the United States, homeschooled children (as a rule) are doing better than public schooled children in national testing and national spelling, geography, and history bees. I don't know about the statistics. My information comes mainly from www.hslda.org. I do know from my own experience that my daughter's tested in the upper ten percent of the children using her particular test for the last seven years when I choose to have her tested.

I've always had a great love of education, despite how badly my school years went. I always wanted to be a teacher, believe it or not. :) But, after seeing the way that the public schools have deteriorated over the past sixteen years, I would never want to be a public school teacher. Teachers are not physically safe in their classrooms anymore in the United States. If I do it at all, I will teach math and/or music in a private school after my daughter finishes high school.


I think so! However many of the homeschoolers I have spoken with think that because they have parented their children they can also educate others. Professional teachers may also have children (I have three ...one who I taught in a Chrstian School) however they still need to do their 4 years of university study to becoame a teacher in Australia. If education was that easy then no qualification would be needed to be a teacher in a public school.

I weighed the options before deciding to homeschool my daughter. Neither the public nor the private schools were doing what she needed. No one was willing to listen to me when I was trying to get her the help she needed. Basically, all of the "professional" educators that I've dealt with looked at me as an "over-achieving mommy who was projecting her own problems onto her daughter." I only have the one child. And, I know that what works for her may not work for any others I may have in the future. But, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

I do know how to use different styles of teaching for different types of learners. My nephew lived with me for a short while. I homeschooled him as well. He was supposed to be in the fourth grade when he came out here. But, he could barely read and couldn't add and subtract numbers correctly. I explained to my daughter that C needed more of my attention at the time where teaching was concerned (she was reviewing anyway) and that if she needed help, to ask me. We did pretty good that year. I got my nephew reading at his "grade level" within two months and by the end of his three month stay with me, he knew his multiplication facts as well as how to add and subtract. My daughter, on the other hand, taught herself basic algebraic operations while I was busy with her cousin. And, this is from a child who claims to hate math. :)

It is also of utmost importance that homeschoolers rid themselves of this image that their teaching is merely "an extension of mummy parenting pre school kids". I am sure that the arguments presented by homeschoolers have damaged their cause in this respect.

And, the arguments presented by "professional" educators that I've known in the U.S. have damaged their cause in this respect. That is why I don't trust teachers.

To be valued in the educational community one must speak the lingo and know the trends. Homeschoolers do neither! Homeschoolers present themselves as "an extension of mummy parenting pre school kids". Their reasons for homeschooling are not positive reasions (because it is GOOD ... a welcoming response to the "Other") but rather they are negative reasons (public schoooling is BAD ...a fearful response to the "Other"). This is why knowledge of critical reflection would greatly help homeschoolers.

Personally, I don't care if I'm "valued in the educational community." All I care about right now as far as education goes is giving my daughter the best education that I can. As I said before, if that means getting tutors or other teachers for her later, so be it. It looks like I may have known what you meant by "critical reflection" all along, Mark. I had never heard that term, though. And, sometimes, I do have a problem expressing myself about something that I'm passionate about (i.e. homeschooling).


As Christians we should value all people as all are made in the image of God. Ubnfortunately the world does not hold that view and values people on their education, wealth, and job ...not necessarily in that order!

Whether the world values my daughter and myself for our education, wealth, and job matters not to me. I am doing my best to do what I feel God called me to do, which is to be a mother. That means I am supposed to teach my daughter right from wrong. And, when I see someone doing something wrong for my daughter, I'm supposed to correct that. I did. When no one would listen, I took matters into my own hands.

I now homeschool!


So was I! In early primary school (elementary school?) I was classified as sub- intelligent because I failed an IQ test dismally (less than 70!) I had looked out the window thinking about other things at the time of the test. I was failing most of the exams for the same reason. Learning about Spot the dog and Jim and Mary didn't interest me. My inspiration was a public school teacher (and a Catholic) who saw my boredom and rectified it. (I have kept in contact with him for the past 40 years ...a great bloke!) He told me the tests were important and asked if I could I help try. I was retested and came out with very high score (120+) I went from the bottom of the 200 people in my year to 1st in a period of 6 months ...and have never looked back since. I choose teaching as a profession because I wanted to help people in exactly the same way that I had been helped.

I was tested when I was about 12. I don't remember the results. I know I tested high because I never had to take another reading/literature class in school again. :) On my yearly, state required tests, I always scored a minimum of three years ahead of my grade level in reading, English, writing, science, history, and math. I ended up moving to a small school in my last year of high school and graduated 12th in a class of 54 students. That wasn't bad considering that I had to move 2000 miles to find a school that was somewhat more suitable to my learning style. :) But, that took twelve years to find.


There are good and bad in all fields ...and all shades between. One searches for the good and spits out the bad ... and trusts goodness and truth. "Ain't no-body perfick!" as I used to tell my pupils (with the incorrect spelling to make a point!) I have met good and bad public school educators ...but I have also met a far higher percentage of poor homeschoolers.

I know that. If you want to use the "Ain't no-body perfic!" phrase for "professional" educators, you must use it for homeschoolers as well. Your experiences and my experiences seem to have been the same except in reverse order. I've seen both good and bad homeschoolers...but I have met a far higher percentage of public school teachers.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
- lack of quality controls and quality assurance

There is a lack of quality controls and quality assurance in public schools in the United States nowadays, Mark. Anymore, public schools are just a place to stash the kids so that parents don't have to spend all their time with them. Just MHO, but I think you ought to find out if more Americans feel that way as well. A lot that I know feel that way.

As to any quality controls and/or assurance in my homeschooling, if I come to something that I cannot teach my daughter, I will find someone who can. But, that's not something that I run into very often. So far, my daughter's only wanted to learn one thing that I never had any interest in whatsoever: geology. So, my late husband and I hired a geologist to teach her for a few weeks. Of course, this was back when my daughter was in third grade (eight years old) and she's now in eighth grade (thirteen years old).

- lack of importance given to educational record keeping

:nono: You may have that a lot in Australia. But, here in the U.S., homeschooling parents tend to be fastidious about record keeping. I have three copies of my daughter's records for the last six years of school (electronic, cdrom, and paper). The next four years, it will be especially important for me to keep excellent records because I want my daughter to attend college.

- over protection in a "mommy bubble"

I have no problem admitting I'm over-protective of my daughter. But, you have to look at each situation differently. I have very good reasons to be over-protective of my daughter that I will not hash out publically. Some parents are over-protective. But, most of them are not. In fact, the majority of parents in the U.S. lean more towards neglecting their children than being over-protective. Nowadays, parents have to have their children busy, busy, busy; soccer games, baseball games, karate class, dance recitals, etc, etc, etc... That doesn't sound over-protective to me.

- over reliance on wives to homeschool causing an imbalance of male / female role models

Why does there have to be a balance of male/female educators? I was my daughter's primary educator because my husband worked to support his family. But, he had a very active role in our schooling. In the real world, there is not a proper balance of male/female authority figures. :) There are some things women are better suited to and there are some things that men are better suited to. Women are better suited to nurturing careers (as a rule...there are a few exceptions now and then), while men are better suited to careers that require strength (like I said, there are a few exceptions now and then).

- the seige mentality of homeskoolin' (us vs them)


For U.S. homeschoolers, the us vs them mentality comes from having child protective services come into our homes because someone reported that our children were not attending school (even though everyone knows we homeschool) because they're mad at us for something or the like.

Some of us (homeschoolers) have legitimate gripes about the public school system even. Now, bear in mind that I'm talking about the United States, not world-wide. You know my gripes. I've tried working with "professional" educators to guarantee my daughter an excellent education. But, my suggestions get thrown out the window as soon as I'm no longer on the scene. Public school teachers here seem to think that all children should learn the same thing at the same rate the same way. Wrong!

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
But, the apprentice must be taught how to do what he's doing. Doesn't he? See? For me "teaching" is the umbrella. :) It includes all that you've mentioned above.


I think a longer explanation is required on why education is the umbrella term and why this is so important to improving the state of homeschooling.

Improving my last definition.............

EDUCATION is an umbrella term to that includes teaching, training, tutoring, mentoring, learning, understanding, growth, apprenticing, lecturing, schooling, pedagogy, androgogy. etc. One talks about a philosophy of education but not a philosophy of teaching.

In schooling at least two people are involved in the educational process educator (teacher - giver & receiver) and learner (pupil - receiver & giver). Understanding of BOTH is essential! Homeschooling seems to focus minimally on the teacher's role and neglect major elements in that of the learner.

In our discussions, when I use the term education I'm talking about the big picture, whereas teaching will be about education within a school system (public, homeschooling, christian, catholic, private, etc)

In this context then a good teacher has at least the following competencies:
- good knowledge of teaching theory
- good knowledge of learning theory
- good reflective practice in the application of both
- good participation in and promotion of life-long learning

This contains enough material to study over several lifetimes!

To further help I will later post the "Good School Checklist". Although written in the context of choosing between public schooling and Christian schooling, most of the questions are applicable to homeschooling and further expands what I mean by "good education".



But, I, like many here on TOL, believe that a bad homeschool education is better than a bad public school education.


Bad education is bad education and should be avoided wherever it is found. Good education is good education and should be prized wherever it is found. If our duiscussion focusses on the elments of good education then we help both the homeschoolers and the Christians involved in other types of education.



Personally, I don't care if I'm "valued in the educational community."


The homeschooling movement will rise or fall (in numbers) depending on its status in the educational community. It is a matter opf PR ...one that I also repeatedly discussed with the head of Christian Community Schools, Rev Robert Frisken. As Christians we must strive to achieve excellence in our work.



If you want to use the "Ain't no-body perfic!" phrase for "professional" educators, you must use it for homeschoolers as well. Your experiences and my experiences seem to have been the same except in reverse order. I've seen both good and bad homeschoolers...but I have met a far higher percentage of public school teachers.


I agree! That is why I think our discussion is valuable to BOTH sides of the issue! ... and also to demonstrate that discussion can be critical and constructive at the same time.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I think a longer explanation is required on why education is the umbrella term and why this is so important to improving the state of homeschooling.

Improving my last definition.............

EDUCATION is an umbrella term to that includes teaching, training, tutoring, mentoring, learning, understanding, growth, apprenticing, lecturing, schooling, pedagogy, androgogy. etc. One talks about a philosophy of education but not a philosophy of teaching.

In schooling at least two people are involved in the educational process educator (teacher - giver & receiver) and learner (pupil - receiver & giver). Understanding of BOTH is essential! Homeschooling seems to focus minimally on the teacher's role and neglect major elements in that of the learner.

Maybe, in your experience with homeschoolers that's true. But, most homeschooling parents I know will hire someone who is qualified to teach what they are not qualified to teach their children. It's all give and take as far as education goes, whether it's public, private, or homeschool. With the exception of maybe two public school teachers I've met, they all (in California and Indiana anyway) seem to think that they can not learn anything from the children. They're wrong! I have learned a lot from teaching my daughter and then from teaching the students I had in the private school.

In our discussions, when I use the term education I'm talking about the big picture, whereas teaching will be about education within a school system (public, homeschooling, christian, catholic, private, etc)

In this context then a good teacher has at least the following competencies:
- good knowledge of teaching theory
- good knowledge of learning theory
- good reflective practice in the application of both
- good participation in and promotion of life-long learning

This contains enough material to study over several lifetimes!

I'm willing to learn from you, Mark. But, it must be a give-and-take relationship on both sides. You must be willing to learn from me as well. I'm not like the homeschoolers you've described. And, chances are, that you're not like the teachers that I've described.

To further help I will later post the "Good School Checklist". Although written in the context of choosing between public schooling and Christian schooling, most of the questions are applicable to homeschooling and further expands what I mean by "good education".

But, that's just you're opinion of a "good school." When you post it, I will probably "pick it apart" and tell you what I think of it as well. :)

Bad education is bad education and should be avoided wherever it is found. Good education is good education and should be prized wherever it is found. If our duiscussion focusses on the elments of good education then we help both the homeschoolers and the Christians involved in other types of education.

I do agree with your first statement. But, you need to realize that usually, in the U.S., if a public school education is bad, children don't learn and tend to fall through the cracks. If a homeschool education is bad, the children still tend to learn a little bit just from everyday life. There's a very popular division of homeschooling here, called "unschooling." It's also called "interest-led learning." Pretty much, the children learn from everyday life unless they show an interest in a particular subject. Now, I tend not to follow that method. I do believe that it's necessary to learn the basics. But, I know that some children do learn that way. So, I won't criticize it too badly. :)

The homeschooling movement will rise or fall (in numbers) depending on its status in the educational community. It is a matter opf PR ...one that I also repeatedly discussed with the head of Christian Community Schools, Rev Robert Frisken. As Christians we must strive to achieve excellence in our work.

I, pretty much, don't care too much about the "homeschooling movement." :) I homeschool because no "professional" educator has taken an interest in teaching my daughter the way she needs to be taught. I don't belong to any homeschooling groups. They're good for those who feel they need them. But, I don't happen to feel I need one.

I agree! That is why I think our discussion is valuable to BOTH sides of the issue! ... and also to demonstrate that discussion can be critical and constructive at the same time.

True enough! I know that you will be critical of homeschooling while trying to teach me. I will be doing the same thing. :) I don't know what the public school system or the homeschoolers in Australia are like. But, I know what both are like here. Same goes for you. :) We have to recognize that what you call proper education may be just what I've been giving my daughter, even without supervision of the school system. I am willing to recognize that Australian public schools may not be as bad as what I've experienced. :)

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall

To further help I will later post the "Good School Checklist". Although written in the context of choosing between public schooling and Christian schooling, most of the questions are applicable to homeschooling and further expands what I mean by "good education".

THIS IS IT!!!!!

I have used the following checklist with parents thinking of being involved in Christian schooling and / or homeschooling. Although dated it is still a good guide. If yiou are unsure of the terms ask or do a Google search.

How does your home schooling fare? It would be a beneficial exercise for homeschoolers to write down their answers to each question and critically reflect on them ...... Not to show to the list here ... just for their own personal help ...and to identify the areas that need improvement. (WE ALL ned improvement!) You might also like to give thjis checklist to any public school teachers you know who are Christians. (Make sure you give credit to the author / publisher as I have done!)



************************************************** *

Brian V Hill "Choosing The Right School" ( ATCF Books: Sydney:1987) *[NOTE: The ATCF is the Australian Teachers Christian Fellowship which accepts Christians who are teachers in any educational system.]


APPENDIX: THE GOOD SCHOOL pp 147 - 153 [Page references and other parts snipped for easier reading]

A CHECK-LIST

A. Needs-Assessment

A 1 Which particular child's needs are you considering at this point? .

A 2Which of this child's needs are the primary responsibility of the parent?

A 3 In regard to schooling, has the child any special needs - physical, intellectual, emotional, social, or special learning difficulties which will need to be taken into account?

A 4 Has the child revealed any special talents or abilities which ought to be kept in mind?

A 5 Is it important in this child's case to choose a school attended by its close friends?


B. The School - Objectives

B 1 How well does the school's policy statement (or public speeches) reflect the general objective [of education]?

B 2 Does the school see itself as a social community needing rules and areas of freedom like the wider society or does it just talk about subjects and results?

B 3 Does the school spell out the general rules on which it operates (i) as a social organisation? and (ii) as an educational community?

B 4 Does the school appear to have achieved a satisfactory balance between sustaining a supportive community within itself. and effectively representing to the child the pluralistic world we live in?

B 5 Do the values the school says it stands for encourage both the study and the critique of those values themselves? In particular does it anywhere affirm its respect for children as persons. and for their right to have their own opinions?

B 6 Does the school have a policy on multiculturalism, and on the admission of students having regard to race or religion? Do you support it?

B 7 Is the school co-ed or single-sex? Does this, in combination with other nurturing influences, meet this particular child's needs?

B 8 What does the school affirm with respect to its view of the home as an educational agency?

B 9 How does the school define its relation to voluntary groups in the wider community?

B 10 How does the school see its role in relation to local and wider government instrumentalities?


C. The School - Administrative Structures

C 1 Does the school use a widely representative consultative body (such as a school council) to make major, long-term policy decisions?

C 2 Does the school policy statement provide clear indications of the roles and powers of the principal, the staff, consultative committees, and other personnel involved in decision-making and administration?

C 3 What provision is made to involve students in the decision-making structures of the school?

C 4 What opportunities does the school provide for involvement in the life of the school by parents and members of the wider community?

C 5 Do these opportunities include forums in which members of the wider community sponsoring the particular school can participate in a genuine way in the formulation of school policy?

C 6 Is the sheer size of the school big enough to provide an adequately wide educational experience, but small enough to maintain a sense of community?


D. The Curriculum

D 1 Is this school locked in to the traditional literary / _academic
subjects for status reasons, or is it prepared to try out promising
alternative themes for study as well?

D 2 Does the school achieve a good balance between the compulsory core and the voluntary options within the curriculum?

D 3 What relative status does the school attach to the humanities as compared with science-type subjects?

D 4 Does the range of subjects offered in this school appear likely to encourage students to reflect on beliefs and values as well as ways and means?

D 5 In particular, what happens in regard to the teaching of religion?

D 6 Does the school welcome the on-site operation of a voluntary Christian group? Is there one?

D 7 Does the school, in its references to its curriculum, include an
acknowledgment of the importance of informal learning and "extra-curricular" activities, on the premises but outside the framework of formal classroom instruction?


E. The School In Operation

E 1 Does the school have an explicit discipline policy, clearly spelling out the steps to be taken in the case of students who continue to disrupt classroom activity or flout the agreed rules of the school community?

E 2 Does it also have clauses identifying the personal liberties and rights accorded to staff and students? Or is it all "do its"?

E 3 How favourable are the school timetable and school_bus schedules to extra-curricular priorities?

E 4 How frequent is staff turnover in this school?

E 5 What steps are taken to regard students as whole persons, rather than merely as students of separate subjects. and what regular (as opposed to crisis) pastoral care and counselling structures operate in the school?

E 6 What support services does the school provide or is it able to call on for emotionally disturbed or disruptive children?

E 7 What support services does the school provide for children with special learning difficulties. in regard to both the number and type of educational specialists on call, and specific procedures adopted to draw such children aside for special assistance?

E 8 What steps are taken to make students aware of career opportunities and of the working world as it impacts on their own local community?

E 9 How adequate are the physical facilities for your child's health and wide learning?


F. The Classroom In operation


F 1 What does the school profess to be able to achieve in the context of formal classroom curriculum? Is it realistic and ethical?

F 2 Where does the school place its emphasis in teaching methods, in regard to such concepts as team teaching, teaching machines. social learning, individualised instruction, direct teaching, and ability streaming vs. mixed ability groups?

F 3 What can you infer from this about the attitude taken to the nature of children as learners?

F 4 What is the school's policy on class sizes? Does it live up to them?

F 5 What does the school say about its policies of assessment in regard to frequency of testing, whether testing is norm-referenced or criterion-referenced, how often it reports to parents, and what it does about students with low marks?


G. The School - Its Reputation

Official statements made by school administrators are one thing. What actually goes on is another. Do you know any parents, other adults, students or ex_-students, who have had actual experience of die school in operation?

Ask them the following:

G 1 Is the school an enjoyable or anxiety-producing place to attend? Why?

G 2 Is the working climate efficient or time-wasting?

G 3 Are the relations of adults to students affirmative or negative?

G 4 To what degree are the staff members of the school, in their
extra-curricular time. committed to joining in with students in the
extra-curricular expressions of school community?

G 5 Is there parental involvement in the school day and is it generally appreciated?


H. If It Is a Christian school

In addition to the above, some questions which probe potential strengths and weaknesses of this particular class of school are as follows:

H 1 Is the school's admissions policy compatible with the kinds of contacts you believe your child needs most?

H2 Does the curriculum fairly reflect the kind of world the child is living in, or does it exclude or potentially distort information felt to be contrary to the defence of the Christian position?

H 3 In the light of other budget priorities within the family, does the extra financial burden seem reason_able?

H4 What minimum demands will there be on your time as a participating parent? Can these demands, together with the extra demands on your tithe, be justified as good stewardship?


I. Final Thoughts

I 1 Will your child be able to cope socially with the kind of community this school runs?

I 2 Given the choice you now prefer, will the impact it has on your home life be within acceptable limits (i.e. leave enough quality time for regular family inter-action, strengthen rather than erode family discussion on values, etc.)?

I 3 Will the choice that you have made communicate in itself the right scale of values and priorities to your children?

I 4 Do the educational gains associated with the choice of this school justify the likely investment of.

(a) personal time in peripheral activities connected with travel time, working bees. fund-raising. etc.?

(b) available family finances?

I 5 Are you prepared to exercise the degree of parental surveillance and participation in the school which this choice involves?

I 6 Are you prepared to shoulder your responsibilities, as a parent of nurture in the family circle, irrespective of what school you have been led to choose?

********************************

[ebenz47037]

Okay, Mark. It's going to take me a while to go through this and tell you what I think about it. Parts of it, I agree with. But, there's a lot that I don't agree with because the public schools that I've dealt with don't do what you've put on your list.

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
There is a lack of quality controls and quality assurance in public schools in the United States nowadays, Mark.

If that is true then it is very sad.



As to any quality controls and/or assurance in my homeschooling, if I come to something that I cannot teach my daughter, I will find someone who can. But, that's not something that I run into very often.

How would you know there is a problem if you do not know how to diagnose it?



So far, my daughter's only wanted to learn one thing that I never had any interest in whatsoever: geology. So, my late husband and I hired a geologist to teach her for a few weeks.


Being an expert in subject matter is no guarrantee that you can educate someone else in that material. The\y are diferent competencies.



I have no problem admitting I'm over-protective of my daughter. But, you have to look at each situation differently.


Exactly! We are talking in generalities but, "at the end of the day" (how I hate that phrase!) it must be suited to the individual person.


Why does there have to be a balance of male/female educators?

Over the entire length schooling it is best to have different role models and not just all male teachers or all female teachers. [Carl Jung is an interesting read in this are concerning his Anima / Animus ... but I digress]



In the real world, there is not a proper balance of male/female authority figures.


There should be! I'm all for feminism.


Women are better suited to nurturing careers (as a rule...there are a few exceptions now and then), while men are better suited to careers that require strength (like I said, there are a few exceptions now and then).


I disagree but note that this opinion strengthens the notion that homeschooling is just about mothering. It is detrimental to the cause of homeschooling.


For U.S. homeschoolers, the us vs them mentality comes from having child protective services come into our homes because someone reported that our children were not attending school (even though everyone knows we homeschool) because they're mad at us for something or the like.


I understand why you would be upset!



Some of us (homeschoolers) have legitimate gripes about the public school system even.

Like I said ALL systems have the good and the bad.



Public school teachers here seem to think that all
children should learn the same thing at the same rate the same way. Wrong!


I hope you are now seeing that that is not ALL teachers. I have not read any article in any contempoary educational journal that would suggest that such action is good educational practice.

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
With the exception of maybe two public school teachers I've met, they all (in California and Indiana anyway) seem to think that they can not learn anything from the children. They're wrong! I have learned a lot from teaching my daughter and then from teaching the students I had in the private school.


Of course teachers learn from the children they teach. Education is a two way process! By far the best have read on this is the South American Catholic educator Paulo Friere "Pedagogy of the Oppressed". Read it!



I'm willing to learn from you, Mark. But, it must be a give-and-take relationship on both sides. You must be willing to learn from me as well.


We're discussing ... I hope ...If I were in teaching mode it would be quite different. Watch "Dead Poet's Society" for an example of how I teach. (NLP techniques!)




But, that's just you're opinion of a "good school." When you post it, I will probably "pick it apart" and tell you what I think of it as well.

Fine ...except I didn't write it ... I pinched (boorowed?) it.



There's a very popular division of homeschooling here, called "unschooling." It's also called "interest-led learning."

Old hat but deserves a reading. This derives from the Catholic educator Ivan Illich. It is best to start with source materials. I have read the following of his books (the ones related to education are marked with *):

- *Deschooling Society
- *After Deschooling, What?
- *Imprisoned In The Global Clasroom
- Celebration of Awareness
- Tools For Conviviality
- Limits To Medicine
- Energy and Equity
- the Church, Change and Development

Illich is still for excellence in education ... whichj is the main thrust of my argument. How is the best education achieved?



Pretty much, the children learn from everyday life unless they show an interest in a particular subject.

This is take from the educational theory of A S Neil. Of particular importance is his book "Summerhill" though I enjoyed his "Domine Books".



I, pretty much, don't care too much about the "homeschooling movement."


I do as far as it relates to excellence in education. I(t is excellence in education hat all good teachers strive for whatever system of education they are within.

[This could lead to an extensive thread on the philosophy of education ...which is probably not useful at the moment ... but a background in this aea is also a competency for a good teacher ...like a pallette from which to choose.]

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Okay, Mark. It's going to take me a while to go through this and tell you what I think about it.


I know! Look at it as an document with areas from which we can start discussion.


... the public schools that I've dealt with don't do what you've put on your list.


Yep! "There ain't no-one perfick!" ....even me.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
A CHECK-LIST

A. Needs-Assessment

A 1 Which particular child's needs are you considering at this point? .

A 2Which of this child's needs are the primary responsibility of the parent?

A 3 In regard to schooling, has the child any special needs - physical, intellectual, emotional, social, or special learning difficulties which will need to be taken into account?

A 4 Has the child revealed any special talents or abilities which ought to be kept in mind?

A 5 Is it important in this child's case to choose a school attended by its close friends?



Section A pretty much has been answered in my previous postings in this thread. With the exception of A 5, I've answered them all. As far as that one goes, I think that depends on the child. My daughter makes friends very easily. So, it isn't important to her that she attend school with her friends.

B. The School - Objectives

B 1 How well does the school's policy statement (or public speeches) reflect the general objective [of education]?

B 2 Does the school see itself as a social community needing rules and areas of freedom like the wider society or does it just talk about subjects and results?

B 3 Does the school spell out the general rules on which it operates (i) as a social organisation? and (ii) as an educational community?

B 4 Does the school appear to have achieved a satisfactory balance between sustaining a supportive community within itself. and effectively representing to the child the pluralistic world we live in?

B 5 Do the values the school says it stands for encourage both the study and the critique of those values themselves? In particular does it anywhere affirm its respect for children as persons. and for their right to have their own opinions?

B 6 Does the school have a policy on multiculturalism, and on the admission of students having regard to race or religion? Do you support it?

B 7 Is the school co-ed or single-sex? Does this, in combination with other nurturing influences, meet this particular child's needs?

B 8 What does the school affirm with respect to its view of the home as an educational agency?

B 9 How does the school define its relation to voluntary groups in the wider community?

B 10 How does the school see its role in relation to local and wider government instrumentalities?

B 1 Every school that I've dealt with makes good public comments about what they want to accomplish. But, they very seldom live up to their goals.

As to my own goals for my daughter, I want to make sure that she has the knowledge when she's finished with high school to go on to college. There are requirements for the students set by colleges. In the U.S., colleges tend to say that students must have three years of mathematics, four years of English/grammar, two (or three) years of science, four years of physical education, two years of foreign language, four years of social studies/history, and two years of electives. That's just to get into college. That does not include SAT/ACT scores or entrance exams with the college. My daughter starts high school next year. I plan on going over and above the "call of duty" when it comes to record keeping for her high school transcripts. I want to make sure that there's no way that a perspective college can say that my daughter did not complete any part of her high school education.

B 2 Public schools that I've dealt with tend to set certain rules and guidelines at the beginning of each school year. But, they tend to let certain students get away with certain things because of who their parents are, or some other ridiculous reason.

I set standards that my daughter must follow. The two main ones are that she complete her work on schedule and that she respect my authority. For our "school" to succeed, she must follow those standards.

B 3 Of course, the public schools do that here. They want public support. :)

I tend not to worry about that. I am not a "social organization."

B 4 Public schools try to do that. But, they are not necessarily succeeding. Students leave public schools not ready to deal with real life here. It's a pity, but it's the truth.

I'm trying to prepare my daughter to deal with real life. Every year, she gets more and more independent. I enjoy watching her grow up. I don't have to meet social issues because I'm not a "social organization."

B 5 Public schools say this, but I've found that if you give them any criticism at all, you're labelled immediately as a crackpot. The public schools here have shown that they don't respect children as persons. Children in the public schools have no rights at all.

My daughter has the right to express her opinion to me about any subject as long as she's respectful about it.

B 6 Not applicable to my homeschooling.

B 7 Not applicable.

B 8 The public schools don't think that the home is a learning agency.

But, obviously, I consider my home a learning agency.

B 9 The public schools here now have "mandatory volunteerism." Kind of an oxymoron if you ask me.

If my daughter chooses to volunteer with an organization, that's her perogative.

B 10 :chuckle: This one's the best one, Mark! Public schools here tend to think of themselves (at least the employees) as extensions of the federal government. If local laws do not agree with federal guidelines, the public schools ignore them.

Personally, I don't want the federal government in my school. I teach my daughter about the constitution, the Congress, and the Supreme Court. I do not have the option of ignoring local laws (county or state). Doesn't bother me in the least. But, the federal government has no place in educating children.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
If that is true then it is very sad.

It's pretty much true.

How would you know there is a problem if you do not know how to diagnose it?

Just because I have a problem explaining to you what I mean doesn't mean that I don't know how to diagnose a problem. I've worked with other homeschooling parents before and had no problems explaining what I mean. I don't know if it's because I'm uncomfortable talking to a "professional" educator about my processes or if it's because we're from different countries that this is hard for me, Mark.

Being an expert in subject matter is no guarrantee that you can educate someone else in that material. The\y are diferent competencies.

But, the expert I chose to teach my daughter did well in teaching her about geology. That's my point.

Exactly! We are talking in generalities but, "at the end of the day" (how I hate that phrase!) it must be suited to the individual person.

Yep!

Over the entire length schooling it is best to have different role models and not just all male teachers or all female teachers. [Carl Jung is an interesting read in this are concerning his Anima / Animus ... but I digress]

That's your opinion. I think that children tend to do better if they attend an all female or all male school if they cannot be homeschooled.

There should be! I'm all for feminism.

I, as a woman, am opposed to feminism. The feminists have made men afraid to be men and have confused enough women into believing that they can do anything men can do. I hate seeing feminine men and masculine women.

I disagree but note that this opinion strengthens the notion that homeschooling is just about mothering. It is detrimental to the cause of homeschooling.

Like I said above, that's your opinion. I didn't say that men cannot teach. I said that women tend to be better. ;)

I hope you are now seeing that that is not ALL teachers. I have not read any article in any contempoary educational journal that would suggest that such action is good educational practice.

:) That's all right, Mark! ;) I may convert you to homeschooling advocacy yet. :chuckle:

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

B 1 Every school that I've dealt with makes good public comments about what they want to accomplish. But, they very seldom live up to their goals.


All the more the reason that each Christian in education should strive to deliver the best education they can within the constraints of their particular system. For example (from another thread) A Christian who is a teacher in a public school is not allowed to evangelise his / her students. Beforee you get upset - THINK! If evangelisation were approved for Christians then it would also have to be approved for Satanists, Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus, Raelians, Wiccans, UFOlogists, etc etc etc. I think is a wise policy for a public utility.


Students leave public schools not ready to deal with real life here. It's a pity, but it's the truth.


Sadly that is true of many education ssystems. Life skills is not a usual subject area.



Public schools say this, but I've found that if you give them any criticism at all, you're labelled immediately as a crackpot.


Need I quote the abuse I have received from homeschoolers when pointing out their flaws???

"Ain't no-one perfick!"

The trick is in criticising the idea or practice and not the person. Unfortunately some people think you are criticising them anmd not their ideas. likewise , I am not criticising you personally, Nori. I am looking at tyhe flaws in homneschooling. All systems have flaws. Home schooling is not immune fro that. It is the action that is taken after recognising the flaws that is important.



The public schools here have shown that they don't respect children as persons. Children in the public schools have no rights at all.

That is not the case in Austalia.



B 6 Not applicable to my homeschooling.

I disagree. Where does your child socialise with people of other races?


B 7 Not applicable.


I disagree Where does your child socialise with peers of both sexes?


B 8 The public schools don't think that the home is a learning agency.

I disagree. No professional educational journal has ever stated that.


But, obviously, I consider my home a learning agency.


For the record, so do I!


B 9 The public schools here now have "mandatory volunteerism." Kind of an oxymoron if you ask me.


That IS weird!


B 10 :chuckle: This one's the best one, Mark![QUOTE]

I didn't write this list of guidelines ...but yes ...I gather there is much problem in the USA over this issue.


[QUOTE]the federal government has no place in educating children.


I disagree. it has the right to ensure, on behalf of the nation it legally represents, that its citizens have attained a reasonable level of education that is equlally avalable to all its citizens. I woukld think any federal government would be amiss if it it did not impose minimum standards for all education which is going to be accredited in some formal educational setting.

However, this issue is not central to that of good educational practice. It does give a bad impression of homeschooling to professional educators who may assume that there must be something going wrong if homeschoolers want to hide what they are doing from the government. An openess to external inspection (for verification purposes) is always a good policy. I don't see any good reason why it should not apply to homeschooling just like it applies to every other education system. It is called "accountability". All people are accountable to someone. Who are homerschoolers accountable to? (Don't answer "the pupil" ... ALL education is accountable to the student!) Who else?

"You gotta serve somebody!" - Bob Dylan

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Just because I have a problem explaining to you what I mean doesn't mean that I don't know how to diagnose a problem. [QUOTE]

I think you explain things quite well. If I don't understand I'll ask for help. That isn't what I meant ...and therefore I haven't explained myself well enough to you. I failed! :doh:

Further example:

Supposing a child presents herself to her mum with a small rash of rased bumps that are itchy. The mother has only experienced such a thing when bitten by the dreaded "Hexham Greys" (huge mosqui