The meaning of the phrase,"In Christ"

[Jerry Shugart]

There are some sincere believers that teach that the Twelve Apostles were not members of the Body of Christ.

However,an examination of the phrase "in Christ" reveals that the Twelve were indeed members of His Body:

"So we,being many,are one Body in Christ"(Ro.12:5).

Being "in Christ" refers to the "New Ceation",the "New Man",which is the Body of Christ:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a New Creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"(2Cor.5:17).

The New Creation is the New Man,the Body of Christ,where there is neither Greek nor Jew,circumcision or uncircumcision:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything,nor uncircumcision,but a New Creation"(Gal.6:15).

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all One in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28).

The same exact thing is said in reference to the "New Man":

"And have put on the New Man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision", Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all"(Col.3:10,11).

And Paul makes it plain that both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers are BOTH included in the Body of Christ:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of two One New Man, so making peace;And that He might reconcile both unto God in One Body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"(Eph.2:15,16).

So the phrase "in Christ" means being in the Body of Christ.So it is not surprising that we see that Peter includes the Jewish believers in the Body of Christ:

"Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus"(1Pet.5:14).

Remember,Paul says that "if any man be in Christ he is a New Creation"(2Cor.5:17).

And by Peter's words there can be no doubt that those who received his epistles were indeed "in Christ",so therefore there is no doubt that they are members of the New Man,the Body of Christ.

John tells the Jewish believes that their "life" is in the Son:

"And this is the record,that God hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

So by understanding the meaning of "in Christ" we can know that the Jewish believers who lived at the time Paul wrote his epistles were indeed members of the Body of Christ.We an also know that Paul was not the first member of the Body of Christ.Paul says:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"(Ro.16:7).

Paul also speaks of churches that were established before he was saved as being "in Christ":

"And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ"(Gal.1:22).

"For ye,brethen,became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus"(1Thess.2:14).

In His grace,--Jerry

[s9s27s54]

Amen! :thumb:

I don't understand how someone could say the apostles were not in Christ.

There are some strange beliefs out there.

[Hilston]

Jerry,

Please prove that "in Christ" equals "member of the Body of Christ." Why can't the phrase refer to anyone who is regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

Jim

[billwald]

Referring to regenerate Jews and Moslems?

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Hilston
Please prove that "in Christ" equals "member of the Body of Christ." Why can't the phrase refer to anyone who is regenerated by the Holy Spirit?
Jim,

As I have already demonstrated,Paul says that "if any man be in Christ he is a New Creation"(2Cor.5:17).

And by comparing Scripture with Scripture it is evident that the "New Creation" is the same thing as the "New Man",the Body of Christ:

The New Creation is the New Man,the Body of Christ,where there is neither Greek nor Jew,circumcision or uncircumcision:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything,nor uncircumcision,but a New Creation"(Gal.6:15).

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all One in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28).

The same exact thing is said in reference to the "New Man":

"And have put on the New Man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision", Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all"(Col.3:10,11).

And Paul makes it plain that both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers are BOTH included in the Body of Christ:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of two One New Man, so making peace;And that He might reconcile both unto God in One Body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"(Eph.2:15,16).

So the phrase "in Christ" means being in the Body of Christ.So it is not surprising that we see that Peter includes the Jewish believers in the Body of Christ:

"Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus"(1Pet.5:14).

Remember,Paul says that "if any man be in Christ he is a New Creation"(2Cor.5:17).

In His grace,--Jerry

[Freak]

Excellent points Jerry. Right on.

[Hilston]

Jerry writes:As I have already demonstrated,Paul says that "if any man be in Christ he is a New Creation"(2Cor.5:17).

And by comparing Scripture with Scripture it is evident that the "New Creation" is the same thing as the "New Man",the Body of Christ:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of two One New Man, so making peace;And that He might reconcile both unto God in One Body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"(Eph.2:15,16).Jerry, the Ephesians passage is not talking about individual men becoming new men. It's talking about the collective non-Jew/non-Gentile Body of Christ becoming One New Man -- the Body of Christ. Peter did not cease being a Jew. Peter's name will be written on the foundation of the Holy City New Jerusalem along with the other Eleven apostles. Israel's earthly hope as described in all those verses I provided for you is yet to be fulfilled. You haven't answered these and you keep conflating the distinctive gospels based on truly specious assumptions.

Jerry writes: And Paul makes it plain that both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers are BOTH included in the Body of Christ:You're wrong, Jerry. It says that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the Body of Christ. They lose their Jewishness and their Gentilishness before God. What you're implying, if Peter and all the other elect Jews are in the Body of Christ, is that Peter and the Eleven and David and Daniel and Moses and Joshua et al would no longer be Jews in the Kingdom, and that is simply false, flying in the face of every promise to the nation of Israel. See below:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a New Creation"(Gal.6:15). It doesn't say BOTH avail anything, it says NEITHER avails anything, Jerry.

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all One in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28). It doesn't say there is BOTH Jew AND Gentile, Jerry, it says there is NEITHER Jew NOR Gentile.

"And have put on the New Man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision", Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all"(Col.3:10,11). It doesn't say: "There is BOTH Greek and Jew," Jerry, it says there is NEITHER Greek NOR Jew.

Jerry writes:So the phrase "in Christ" means being in the Body of Christ. So it is not surprising that we see that Peter includes the Jewish believers in the Body of Christ:If Peter does so, he is violating both Paul's writings and undermining the Hope of Israel.

Peter writes: "Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus"(1Pet.5:14), because each household of God's elect can be described this way. Each household can be described as "saved" as "regenerated" as "elect" as "chosen" as "blessed" as having "Hope" as having "faith" as being "righteous," "justified", "redeemed," et cetera et cetera. Just because similar descriptions are used does not justify conflating their distinctive and separate Hopes.

Your attempt to amalgamate Paul's gospel and Peter's gospel (Gal 2:7) fails utterly. So I'll ask again: Please prove that "in Christ" equals "member of the Body of Christ." Why can't the phrase refer to anyone who is regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

Jim

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Hilston
So I'll ask again: Please prove that "in Christ" equals "member of the Body of Christ."
Dear Jim,

In my last post I answered that question,but now I will go into more detail.First,remeber that Paul himself equates being in the Body of Christ to being "in Christ":

"So we,being many,are One Body in Christ"(Ro.12:5).

The phrase "in Christ" refers to being in the Body of Christ,as the following verse demonstrates:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all One in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28).

There can be no doubt that these verses are in reference to being in the Body of Christ,because those who are "baptized into Christ" are said to be baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

So when Paul says that believers are "One in Christ" he is referring to being members of the Body of Christ.
Why can't the phrase refer to anyone who is regenerated by the Holy Spirit?
The phrase "in Christ" actually means exactly what it says--"IN Christ.In what way are we "in Christ"?

The believer is so identified with the life of the Lord Jesus Christ that he says that the believer has "put on Christ".Once he has put on Christ he is actually "in Christ".In fact,this identification with the Lord Jesus is so complete that Paul says the following:

"For we are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones"(Eph.5:30).

In fact,our identification with HIs life is so complete that we are told that we now are seated in the heavenlies with Christ:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"(Eph.2:5,6).

Again,we see the phrase "in Christ" mentioned again in reference to the Body of Christ---"made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

We are so identified with Christ as He now sits at the right hand of God that Paul says that our lives are "hidden with Christ in God",and that Christ "is our life"(Col.3:4).

And that is why John tells those who received his epistle that we "live through Him"(1Jn.4:9) and that our "life" is in the Son:

"And this is the record,that God hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

You ask why the term "in Christ" cannot be in reference to being regenerated.I cannot find even one instance where the term "in Christ" is used in reference to the "born again" experience.But I have already demonstrated that those who are members of His Body are said to be "in Christ".

Next,I used the following verses to demonstrate that both the Jewish believes and the Gentile believers are placed in the Body of Christ:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of two One New Man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in One Body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"(Eph.2:15,16).

You replied:
Jerry, the Ephesians passage is not talking about individual men becoming new men. It's talking about the collective non-Jew/non-Gentile Body of Christ becoming One New Man -- the Body of Christ.
If Paul is not speaking of "both" Jews and Gentiles being made members of His Body,what does the word "both" refer to?

Of course this is in reference to "both" Jews and Gentiles,as the following verse demostrates:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"(1Cor.12:13).

The Body of Christ is made up of "both" Gentiles (according to the flesh) and Jews (according to the flesh).But once in the spiritual Body of Chist we are no longer to know fellow Christians after the flesh:

"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a New Creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"(2Cor.5:16,17).

And that explains why Paul says that in the Body of Christ "there is neither Greek nor Jew,circumcision nor uncircumcision"(Col.3:11).

And it is interesting that as late as Acts 21 the Jews still referred to themselves as Jews:

"Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law"(Acts21:20).

But by the time Peter wrote his epistles he no longer refers to themselves as Jews,but instead uses the term "Christian":

"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf"(1Pet.4:16).
Peter did not cease being a Jew. Peter's name will be written on the foundation of the Holy City New Jerusalem along with the other Eleven apostles.
The Twelve Apostles were "foundational" to building up the New Jerusalem,just as they are also "foundational" in building up the Body of Christ:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone"(Eph.2:19,20).

So just because the Twelve are described as the "foundation" of the New Jerusalem,they are also described as being a part of the "foundation" of the Body of Christ.
Israel's earthly hope as described in all those verses I provided for you is yet to be fulfilled. You haven't answered these and you keep conflating the distinctive gospels based on truly specious assumptions.
The author of Hebrews tells the Jewish believers that they have a "better hope" than those "earthly hopes" of which you speak.And it is by this "better hope" that the Jewish believers "draw near unto God":

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God"(Heb.7:19).

Under the Law the only person who ever drew near to God was the high priest,and he only did that once a year on the Day of Atonement when he entered the Holiest Place.

But now all those in the Body of Christ have drawn "near to God" when we are raised up together with Christ and made to sit at the right hand of God together with Christ.

Theefore,since these Jewish believers are said to be "near unto God" it is evident that they re indeed in the Body of Christ.They have been made a part of the New Creation when they are placed in the New Man,the Body of Christ.And as Paul says,if "any man" be IN CHRIST then he is a New Creation.

And the Jewish believers who received Peter's epistles are indeed said to be "in Christ Jesus":

"Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus"(1Pet.5:14).

Therefore,these Jewish believers are in the Body of Christ,the New Creation.If any man be "in Christ" he is a New Creation.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Phil_k]

Great post Jerry

[Freak]

Jerry, Biblically sound post. Excellent.

[everbaptist]

Brethren

I Cor 12:13 states CLEARLY that the Holy Spirit places us into the BODY or church of Christ. When the apostles were assembled at Pentecost the Holy Spirit filled EACH of them and so placed them into the body which is Christ's church.That this was the "baptism of the Holy Spirit is further proved by Christ's earlier statement to the disciples in Acts 1:5. The Apostles received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and thus the New Testament church began.

[Timothy]

Originally posted by everbaptist I Cor 12:13 states CLEARLY that the Holy Spirit places us into the BODY or church of Christ. When the apostles were assembled at Pentecost the Holy Spirit filled EACH of them and so placed them into the body which is Christ's church.That this was the "baptism of the Holy Spirit is further proved by Christ's earlier statement to the disciples in Acts 1:5. The Apostles received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and thus the New Testament church began.

You are failing to recognize what was revealed at the time of Acts, and well as the distinctiveness of Paul's Apostleship. You are actually "reading" Paul's epistles "back into" early Acts.

The body of Christ consits of Jew and Gentile, without distinction, right? WHEN and through WHOM was the body of Christ revealed?

Ephesians 3:2-6 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel

It is through Paul that God revealed the mystery - that Jew and Gentiles are of the same body, the body of Christ. Given that, now go back to Acts again without "reading" Paul's epistles into the account. The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost actually PROVES that the Body of Christ did NOT begin in Acts 2. I'll say that again - The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost actually PROVES that the Body of Christ did NOT begin in Acts 2.

Acts 2:16-18 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

The coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 ("this is that") was actually prophecy, not the mystery. It concerns the prophetic kingdom and Israel, not the body of Christ. Further, in Acts 3:21 it is clear that what was happening was "spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," the opposite of "the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" (Romans 16:25).

[everbaptist]

Timothy

Bro Timothy, what God does man doesn't always understand AT THE TIME what God is doing right under his eyes. This is so important for you to understand. When we read the book of Acts we are seeing an UNFOLDING of the work of the Holy Spirit and God's doings with all men. But even the the apostles did not understand the full implication of God's work to begin with.

It is true that Peter was prejudice and bias for the jews as he preached the saving message of Christ. This is because he did not have a full understanding that God wanted to save all men and not just the jews. God had to reveal a vision to Peter just to get him to go to the house of Cornelius. That's being prejudice,amen?

Also God caused a great persecution to come on the early church so that they would spread out to the nations about them.Sometimes God has to put a stick of dynamite under us to get our attention. But my point is, IT WAS ALWAYS GOD'S INTENTION TO SAVE ALL MEN WITHOUT RACE, CREED OR COLOR. From the very get go.

When Paul was in prison and God revealed to him the "mystery" it wasn't something NEW that was going to start when Paul was in prison, that God was going to do, but something he had been doing all along, but even the apostles didn't realize it. But now he wanted to make his full plan known to Paul, so that the whole body or church WOULD KNOW what God was doing all along.

A mystery as used in he bible is something that is KEPT HIDDEN. But now, while Paul was in prison, God revealed to Paul just what that mystery was. But it didn't start during the time of Paul's imprisonment. It had started from the very first convert who got saved by faith in Jesus Christ. THAT'S WHEN IT BEGAN. Do you understand now? God Bless.

[Timothy]

Yes, God knew all along what he was doing. It was kept secret since the world begain, and FIRST revealed to man through the Apostle Paul. Scripture needs to be rightly divided.

Ephesians 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

[Chileice]

The best book on this subject is a book entitled: "In Christ" by John R.W. Stott. It is a wonderful book that will be worth the effort to find.

[everbaptist]

Timothy

But was God saving men by grace before Paul? If not were there TWO plans of salvation or just one?

[Timothy]

Originally posted by everbaptist But was God saving men by grace before Paul? If not were there TWO plans of salvation or just one?

Why were animal sacrifices required?

[everbaptist]

Timothy

I was referring to folks who became Christians before Paul was called of God. The ones who were saved under the apostles ministry. Were they saved by grace or was there a different plan of salvation for them?

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by everbaptist
But was God saving men by grace before Paul? If not were there TWO plans of salvation or just one?
everbaptist,

The Scriptures do indeed speak of two different ways that men can be saved.

The first is "according to his deeds",and this is in regard to "law" keeping (see Romans 2:6-15).However,Paul points out that by this way all men come up short (Ro.3:9,10).

No one in history was ever saved in this way,but throught history the Lord had been saving sinners by grace through faith.But it was not until Paul was converted was this "principle" was made known.He says:

"But now the righteousness of God apart from law is made known, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:21-24).

The OT Scriptures do indeed hint at the fact that the sinner is justified before God based on his "faith" alone ("Abraham believed God,and it was counted to him for righteousness") but how this was made possible was not revealed until Paul was converted.

In His grace,--Jerry

[everbaptist]

Bro Jerry

Were the apostles saved differently than Paul? And what about all the converts under the apostles ministry? Were they saved the same way as the folks under Paul's ministry? If they were saved differently Jerry, how were they saved differently apart from faith in Jesus Christ? Please explain.

[Jerry Shugart]

everbaptist,

The Gentiles under Paul's ministry were born again when they heard and believed the "gospel of grace":

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"(1Cor.15:1-4).

The Jews were born again and blessed when they believed that the Lord Jesus Christ is their promised Messiah and the Son of God.The Lord Jesus asked Peter who he thought He was.Peter said:

"Thou art the Christ,the Son of the Living God"(Mt.16:16).

To which the Lord said:

"Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven"(Mt.16:17).

And John makes it plain that the Jews were born again when they recived Him and believed that He is indeed the Son of God:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"(Jn.1:12,13).

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him"(1Jn.5:1).

And if you examine the testimony which went to the Jews during the Acts period it is evident that this was the message that was preached to them.Here are Paul's words to the Jews during that period of time:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God....But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ"(Acts9:20,22).

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ"(Acts17:2-3).

"And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is Christ"(Acts18:5).

So we canm see that the Gentiles were given one message,and the heart and soul of that gospel is the fact that Christ died for our sins.

On the other hand,the message that as preached to the Jews during the Acts period was centered on the fact that the LOrd Jesus CHrist is the promised Messiah.

Different gospels,but yet all believers are justified by faith through grace and it is all made possible by the death of the LOrd Jesus upon the Cross.

In His grace,--Jerry

[billwald]

$Why were animal sacrifices required?$

Rabbinical Judaism asked the same question after the Temple was destroyed. The rabbis concluded that the sacrifices didn't do anything, they were an external representation of inward repentance, just as Baptists say that baptism doesn't do anything but is a symbol of repentance.

$But was God saving men by grace before Paul?$

Paul tried to teach that Abraham was saved by grace but he apparently preached better than he wrote.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by billwald
$Why were animal sacrifices required?$
billwald,

The Lord was demonstrating His grace by requiring animal sacrifices.

The penalty for sin is "death".

And the Lord allowed those who sinned to bring an animal sacrifice to be put to death in their place.

In His grace,--Jerry

[billwald]

$And the Lord allowed those who sinned to bring an animal sacrifice to be put to death in their place.$

NO! Jesus died for their sins. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world was laid.

Dispensationalists are overly concerned about time lines, not understanding that God operates outside of time.

[LightSon]

Originally posted by billwald
NO! Jesus died for their sins. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world was laid.

Dispensationalists are overly concerned about time lines, not understanding that God operates outside of time.

Was Jesus slain before the foundation of the world, or did was He slain around 1970 years ago? Perhaps there is a sense in which both are true. What is that sense?

I recognize the verse which you quote, but wonder what the appropriate application is. I've often thought that before the foundation of the world and "in God's mind" Christ would need to suffer, and so it was just as good as a done deal. Yet, Christ still needed to go through the physical exercise, and that exercise was realized "in time" (i.e. as per a timeline).

In other words, while "Dispensationalists are overly concerned about time lines," I don't think we can throw timelines out altogether. Can we?

[servent101]

Lightson

In other words, while "Dispensationalists are overly concerned about time lines," I don't think we can throw timelines out altogether. Can we?

I think we can throw a lot of things out the window, including timelines, the trinity, the canonizing or closing of Scripture. We are called to preach the Good News not sit on our fannies and think or way to heaven. Somehow these mentioned events or ideas missed the observation of the early church fathers, they did well enough without them, for me I say we could use our energy better elsewhere - like realizing that in 80% of the New Testament, the word Love properly translates into the word charity.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Timothy]

Originally posted by billwald NO! Jesus died for their sins. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world was laid.

You and I now know that because we have the completed revelation of the word of God. What did they know then? When they were required to shed blood of bulls and goats, did they know at that time it was a type of the blood of Christ?

[Timothy]

Originally posted by billwald Dispensationalists are overly concerned about time lines, not understanding that God operates outside of time.

A dispensation is not a period of time, but a program or set of revealed instructions on how God deals with man. To dispense means to give out, measure out. A dispensation is not a time period, but covers God's dealings with man during a time period (i.e. the Reagan administration). The issue is not time, but what is going on.

[geralduk]

There is MORE to "IN" Christ that being IN the BODY.

One is that even as we were IN Adam so are those who believe are In Christ.

For we are by NATURE born of the FIRST Adams seed.
and therefore SUBJECT to sin and death.
Even IN him.

and so being BORN we INHERIT that nature which is HIS.... SINFULL.

So even through his UNBELEIF and disobedience we are brought under sin and death.

So through the OBEDIENCE and faith of the LAST Adam we are briought to LIFE and peace with God.
to them that beleive.

So we are BORN not of "corruptable seed (which is of the first Adam) but of the incorruptable seed "which is of the LAST Adam.

Therefore we are blessed with that blessing of God IN cHRIST FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD"

Now the Lord Himslef said that unless a man be BORNagain he cannot (EVEN!) SEE the kingdom of God"
and space does not permit to explain it but they must be born of "WATER AND SPIRIT"
wATER being the WORD AND the Spirit.
For without faith it is impossible to please God.
and faith comes by eharing and understanding the word of God.
Therefore you cannot eneter the kingdom of God unles you excersise your faith IN GOD.

AND SO those children of ISREAL WHO WERE GIVEN FOR OUR ENSAMPLE were saved FIRST by the WORD ;FOR God had promised to Abraham AND conformed it by Joseph.
Then THE blood APPLIED.
tHEN THE NEW LIFE OF LIBERTY.
A baby into this world has first a breaking of the waters.
a show of blood and then the new life.
So too in the kingdom of God.
The water (WORD) is 'broken' TO OUR UNDERSTANDING by the HOLY SPIRIT.
and in response the blood is aplied to our lives adn then we recive the new life.
and we are baptised into CHRIST.
AND SEALED.
they were promised deliverrnce.
AND THE WORD was sown and buried for 400 years.
then according to the scriptures God fullfilled the the promise at the time apointed.
THE BLOOD WAS SHED.
they were given LIFE.
BAPTISED IN WATER AND SEPERATED from the world.
AND a 'different' people entered into the promsied land.

Therefore ALL must come the SAME way.

Which is by the WORD MEANING CHRIST
by the BLOOD of the lamb.
and be quickned by the HOLY SPIRIT.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Timothy
You and I now know that because we have the completed revelation of the word of God. What did they know then? When they were required to shed blood of bulls and goats, did they know at that time it was a type of the blood of Christ?

YES to them that believed.
For the "spirit of Christ which was IN them .............."
Caine was rejected because He rejected CHRIST which was why he found no forgiveness.

For remember that when God gave Adam and Eve a COVERING of animal skins and therefore of blood.
He ALSO promised a savior BORN of a woman but not of ADAMS SEED.
a MALE CHILD who would bruise the HEAD of ther serpent ie the ROOT CAUSE of sin.
and in the bruising himslef wouild have his heal bruised.
Eve thought that CAINE was he.
Jesus himslef said thEY (SPEASKING OF THE old testament )SPEAK of Me"
Paul speaking to Timothy said "you ahve ALL the scriptures that will make you wise unto?.......SALVATION!
and what scriptures did he have?
THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Therefore THIS faith which is "THE faith that was once and for alldelivered unto the saints" has been around from the BEGINNING and was first manifested by ABLE.#
eVEN AS paul says so.

[Jerry Shugart]

There are some sincere believers that teach that the Twelve Apostles were not members of the Body of Christ.

However,an examination of the phrase "in Christ" reveals that the Twelve were indeed members of His Body:

"So we,being many,are one Body in Christ"(Ro.12:5).

Being "in Christ" refers to the "New Ceation",the "New Man",which is the Body of Christ:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a New Creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"(2Cor.5:17).

The New Creation is the New Man,the Body of Christ,where there is neither Greek nor Jew,circumcision or uncircumcision:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything,nor uncircumcision,but a New Creation"(Gal.6:15).

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all One in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28).


The same exact thing is said in reference to the "New Man":

"And have put on the New Man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision", Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all"(Col.3:10,11).

And Paul makes it plain that both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers are BOTH included in the Body of Christ:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of two One New Man, so making peace;And that He might reconcile both unto God in One Body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"(Eph.2:15,16).

So the phrase "in Christ" means being in the Body of Christ.So it is not surprising that we see that Peter includes the Jewish believers in the Body of Christ:

"Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus"(1Pet.5:14).

Remember,Paul says that "if any man be in Christ he is a New Creation"(2Cor.5:17).

And by Peter's words there can be no doubt that those who received his epistles were indeed "in Christ",so therefore there is no doubt that they are members of the New Man,the Body of Christ.

John tells the Jewish believes that their "life" is in the Son:

"And this is the record,that God hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

So by understanding the meaning of "in Christ" we can know that the Jewish believers who lived at the time Paul wrote his epistles were indeed members of the Body of Christ.We an also know that Paul was not the first member of the Body of Christ.Paul says:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"(Ro.16:7).

Paul also speaks of churches that were established before he was saved as being "in Christ":

"And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ"(Gal.1:22).

"For ye,brethen,became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus"(1Thess.2:14).

In His grace,--Jerry

[Freak]

Jerry, outstanding job! God's Word speaks volumes!

[Workman]

The 12 apostles, along with Paul were in the body of Christ during the acts period. But we are NOT the body of CHrist. We are the New Man spoken of after Acts 28. The New Creature was the spiritual seed of Abraham. I am not. I do not have the blessing of Abraham on me or else I would have the New Covt like the Galatians did. I have all spiritual blessings in heavenly places and as the church, which is his body my election goes back BEFORE the foundation of the world.
FYI men have always become saints the same way...GRACE ONLY. Just for the record too, I am NOT a Calvinist, I am an Open VIew Theist and an Acts 28 Dispensationalist.
For those that are interested...The head of the New Man in COL and other epistles written after Acts 28 was ONLY CHRIST...but in the illustration in I.Cor.12 about the head has BELIEVERS composing it. Surely GOD knew better than to contradict himself. That is why it is PAUL'S word that is to be divided.
Grace,
Mike Holt

[Workman]

PS. Men were IN CHRIST even before Christ came to die for sins.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Workman

PS. Men were IN CHRIST even before Christ came to die for sins.

:confused: Verse, please!

[Workman]

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Christ was giving LIFE, spiritual LIFE to men even BEFORE he died for their sins. Again, the New COv't did not even come untill he died for sins. You know that they can't loose their identification with Christ because it says that they ARE passed (not "shall pass") from death to life. Since THIS is so, nobody can say that they must KEEP BELIEVING in order to avoid condemnation. Or else, they NEVER PASSED from death to life. No, the exact phrase "in Christ" is not found in the Old Testament, but then again neither is: Jesus Christ, baptism, Bride of Christ, etc. etc. etc. Just because the phrase is not there does not mean that the TEACHING is not there. Like us too, there was a difference between LIFE vs. reward...but that is a different issue..
Any man in CHrist's day could have life just by believing on his name.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Workman

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Christ was giving LIFE, spiritual LIFE to men even BEFORE he died for their sins. Again, the New COv't did not even come untill he died for sins. You know that they can't loose their identification with Christ because it says that they ARE passed (not "shall pass") from death to life. Since THIS is so, nobody can say that they must KEEP BELIEVING in order to avoid condemnation. Or else, they NEVER PASSED from death to life. No, the exact phrase "in Christ" is not found in the Old Testament, but then again neither is: Jesus Christ, baptism, Bride of Christ, etc. etc. etc. Just because the phrase is not there does not mean that the TEACHING is not there. Like us too, there was a difference between LIFE vs. reward...but that is a different issue..
Any man in CHrist's day could have life just by believing on his name.

Sorry, but that verse says nothing to prove your contention. No one was in Christ until the Holy Spirit had come to dwell in the lives of believers.

"It is the Spirit who gives life"

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

[Workman]

WEll, then we have a REAL problem, cause for some strange reason Christ LEFT THAT OUT in John 5, didn't he??? I mean, after all, it really does NOT MATTER what Christ told people in John 5 if he told other people something different, huh? Oh, yes...that text you gave DOES look forward to the Acts period, but what God WOULD DO THEN does not alter what Christ said was happening in John 5

[Workman]

Just for the record, I teach a room called Grace Believers Online on paltalk.com if any dispensationalist would like a formal debate on anything that I posted, that could be arranged. I am not interested in written debates, those are wayyyyyyy to time consuming, but a live debate would be great. Especially on dispensational salvation.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Workman

WEll, then we have a REAL problem, cause for some strange reason Christ LEFT THAT OUT in John 5, didn't he???

I don't have a problem, Jesus often spoke of events that were yet to occur.John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. There was no freedom from condemnation until the debt had been paid. The ability to "believe on Him" was not possible until Jesus had accomplished what God had prepared for Him.

[Workman]

John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
John 4:41-42 And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
John 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.

LOL ok...

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Workman

John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
John 4:41-42 And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
John 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.

LOL ok...

You're not understanding what I said, nor are you taking the whole counsel of the message of Christ, but rather are building a false doctrine based on verses that are clearly taken out of context.

To suggest that anyone possessed the life of God (was in Christ) before Christ's death and resurrection is blasphemous and insults His sacrifice, His shed blood, and His resurrection.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Workman
The 12 apostles, along with Paul were in the body of Christ during the acts period. But we are NOT the body of CHrist.
Hi Mike,

If we are not in the "Body of Christ" then why would Paul say that the Lord gave pastors and teachers "for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ"(Eph.4:12)?

Is this not the same Body of Christ that Paul refers to at 1Cor.12:27?

Or are you under the impression that there are "two" Bodies of Christ,even though Paul says that there is only one (Eph.4:4)?
The head of the New Man in COL and other epistles written after Acts 28 was ONLY CHRIST...but in the illustration in I.Cor.12 about the head has BELIEVERS composing it. Surely GOD knew better than to contradict himself.
The Greek word translated "head" can mean "anything supreme,chief,prominent;of persons,master,Lord"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

In His grace,--Jerry

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo
I don't have a problem, Jesus often spoke of events that were yet to occur.
Sozo,

Are you saying that the Lord's words in the follolwing verse were not for the time in which HE spoke them but instead were in reference to a time to come?:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

If you are,then how do you explain His words that immediately follow?:

"The hour is coming,and now is,when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God;and they that live shall hear"(Jn.5:25).
There was no freedom from condemnation until the debt had been paid. The ability to "believe on Him" was not possible until Jesus had accomplished what God had prepared for Him.
First of all,Mike has already provided a verse that demonstrates that they were indeed people who believed on Him before the Cross.In fact,who would deny that His Apostles did in fact believe on Him before the CRoss?

And by the Lord's own words those who believed before the Cross "shall not come into condemnation".

In His grace,--Jerry

[Workman]

I encourage you to prayfully consider this material. I don't have the time to answer all questions, but I hope this helps.

Jerry you give a very fair question! Here is the reason I say that:
When people crossed over the Acts 28 boundary they needed to find out what God had done. They had expected for prophecy to continue in such a way that an earthly kingdom would come in the near future. I would say that it was AFTER Paul uttered Acts 28:28 that that began to be altered. A new, unprophecied dispensation was brought in. But, what could the body of Christ do??? They did not know this...
So, what GOd did is he kept the five fold ministry of the Christ in tack and handed them the new revelation WITH the aide of Paul. If you look at Eph, you have 2 groups that came into the NEW MAN. The saints, I would argue, were those identified with Paul who came out of the Acts period. These are they who were tied into the law and had FIRST trusted Christ. Paul knew all of them from Ephesus in Acts 20. (OBVIOUSLY a person can not be FAITHFUL without being a saint, but the very fact that Paul makes distinctions would show that there distinctions TO BE MADE)

But there is a second set of individuals that are ALSO in the New man. These are the "faithful in Christ Jesus" whose FAITH Paul had only HEARD of...Paul did not know them in the flesh like those in Acts 20.
If you look closely in that Epistle you will see distinctions between the WE (saints who first trusted) vs. the YE (faithful in CHrist Jesus). After the Acts 28 boundary the SAINTS needed those gifts so that THEY as the BODY OF CHRIST could come into the fullness of the stature of CHrist (knowledge of the One New Man). THe reason why this cross over is possible is because, unlike the New Man, the body of Christ was an ORGANIZATION, not an organism. It was, the VISIBLE (SIGNS!) CORPORATE church and NOT bone of his bone and flesh of Christ's flesh.
The day did come where those who FIRST TRUSTED CHRIST like Paul DID come to the unity of the faith and THEREFORE we don't have those gifts around today. The body of CHrist had seen its breakdown and was BROUGHT UNTO the knowledge of the fullness of the stature of Christ.

Here are some verses. Please not the difference when Paul is speaking of "we" vs "You or YE". Also realize that he WE could not be his traveling companions because they are NOT mentioned in the context in CH.1

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:11-12 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Ephesians 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

Ephesians 1:17-18 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 2:1-2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

again, notice the WE identifies the saints WITH PAUL vs the YE or YOU....

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

THE YE were GENTILES IN THE FLESH...this could not and was not what could be said about Paul...
Ephesians 2:11-12 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

NOw, he will pull it together with the CIRCUMCISION when he says OUR...again, that alone, in context would show enhance the distinction...

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

NOTICE: Between US...saints vs. Faithful in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:15-17 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

I truly believe that what happened is that God took the believing remnant of the Acts period and those that were grafted into the commonwealth of Israel (father Abraham-father of MANY nations-PROPHECY) and combined them with a NEW SET of Gentiles that WERE NOT localized to the Jews. When God did this he THEN could create the NEW MAN. The body of Christ was therefore COMBINED with US far off Gentiles and FINALLY the Jewish ORdinances of the Acts period WERE DROPPED (Acts15; 21) and this dispensation BLOSSOMED.

HERE is the BELIEVING Gentiles that Paul was EXCLUSIVELY sent to during the Acts period TO PROVOKE THE JEWS TO JEALOUSY...

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and ""whosoever ""among you"" feareth God""", to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Romans 11:13 For I speak to ""you"" Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
WHY DOES HE MAGNIFY IT?>>>
Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

CONTRAST THIS TO:
Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God ""is sent"" unto ""the Gentiles"", and that they will hear it.
No longer is there a need for localized, KOSHER Gentiles
Ephesians 3:1-3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for ""you Gentiles"", If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

THUS, those gifts in Eph. 4 were NOT for me. I never needed a PASTOR, I never was a sheep left over from the Acts period that needed to NOW KNOW that my program changed.
Ephesians 4:11-15 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the "perfecting of the ""saints"", for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of "the body of Christ": "Till ""we"" all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That "we" henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Again...
Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ""ye"" henceforth walk not "as other Gentiles" walk, in the vanity of their mind,

Grace and Peace,
Mike

[Workman]

PS. When Paul says what he does about ONE BODY he says it with the understanding that there is ONE NEW MAN. Technically was only ONE "church, which is his body" even though there might be LOCAL CHURCH BODIES all over the place that men have created.

Colossians 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Colossians 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

Again, I would say the "the body of Christ" in I.Cor. 12 was the LOCAL and CORPORATE CHURCH and would not contradict the truth of Eph. 4 even as there are many lords but to us there is only one Lord.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Sozo,

Are you saying that the Lord's words in the follolwing verse were not for the time in which HE spoke them but instead were in reference to a time to come?:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

The benefit from those words were not in effect until Christ sent the Holy Spirit.

It proclaims the same message of grace that has always been available by looking forward to God's provision.

No one was "in Christ", before Christ paid the debt for sin. Christ proclaimed the inheritence that would come for those who believe/believed.

[Jerry Shugart]

Mike,

The church of the present dispensation is His Body:

"...and gave Him to be the head over all things to the Church,which is His Body"(Eph.1:22,23).

Are you saying that you are not a part of the Body,which is His Church?

You say that those who received Paul's later epistles were not members of the Body of Christ,but please read what Paul writes in one of his later epistles:

"For we are members of His Body,of His flesh,and of His bones...I speak concerning Christ and the church"(Eph.5:30,32).

In His grace,--Jerry

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo
The benefit from those words were not in effect until Christ sent the Holy Spirit.
Sozp,

You say that the "benefit" of the Lord Jesus' words in the following verses "were not in effect until Christ sent the Holy Spirit":

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:24,25).

If the "benefits" were not in effect at the time the Lord Jsus spoke those words,then why in the world would He say that they already have everlasting life--"hath everlasting life"?

And why would the Lord Jesus say that that they have already passed from death unto life?

In His grace,--Jerry

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Sozp,

You say that the "benefit" of the Lord Jesus' words in the following verses "were not in effect until Christ sent the Holy Spirit":

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:24,25).

If the "benefits" were not in effect at the time the Lord Jsus spoke those words,then why in the world would He say that they already have everlasting life--"hath everlasting life"?

And why would the Lord Jesus say that that they have already passed from death unto life?

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry, I don't see why this is such a problem for you (unless of course you hold to a Calvinistic view of the gospel). Jesus is making a promise, that will not be realized until He sends the Holy Spirit. It is impossible for anyone to have been in Christ before they had received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could not dwell in believers until Christ had paid the debt for sin, and been raised.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo
Jesus is making a promise, that will not be realized until He sends the Holy Spirit.
Sozo,

If what you say is true,the Lord would have used "future" tense at John 5:24,25.But He did not! Instead,He was speaking in the "present" tense.

If the promises were not to be fulfilled until later,then He would not say that those who are believing (present tense) already have everlasting life and have already passed from death unto life.
It is impossible for anyone to have been in Christ before they had received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could not dwell in believers until Christ had paid the debt for sin, and been raised.
You assume that the only way throughout time that one could be saved is by being "in Christ".But there is no Scriptual basis for your idea.And although it was not until after the Cross that believers were dwelled by the Holy Spirit,it is a fact that even during the time that the Lord walked the earth that the Holy Spirit was quickening dead sinners.That is the meaning of the words of the Lord Jesus when HE said the following:

"It is the Spirit that giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

In His grace,--Jerry

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

"It is the Spirit that giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).



You've got to be kidding, that you don't understand that!


Do I need to start over at the beginning with you?

For you to teach that anyone was saved apart from the death & resurrection of Christ, is blasphemous.

Salvation is life!

Eph 2:8 tells us:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

Romans tells us that if you confess that Jesus is Lord, and believe that God raised Him from the dead, you are saved and we just read that it is by grace.

God gives us the grace to believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and when we accept this in our hearts, and confess it with our mouths, the result is righteousness and salvation.

What is it about Jesus that saves us? What did He do?

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him"

"He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world"

"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins"

Propitiation - God is satisfied!

Jesus satisfied a debt He did not owe, for us who had a debt we could not pay and God accepted it and we were reconciled to God.

"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son"

What debt did Jesus pay?

"For the wages of sin is death"

Jesus paid for our sin.

"For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all"

Jesus died to sin for all, and that death, satisfied God and the debt was paid, and all were reconciled to Him.

Reconciled - a change in relationship

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation"

"...we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

(We beg you on behalf of Christ, let your relationship with God be changed)

God has changed the relationship through the blood of Christ, by removing the debt that we owed, and no longer counting our trespasses against us, and He desires that we change our relationship with Him.

Jesus was raised from the dead

"...knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him"

Jesus is alive!

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;"

We are saved by His life!

"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

"...whoever believes may in Him have eternal life"

"...whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life".

He who believes in the Son has eternal life

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life".

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life"

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life"

"I came that they might have life"

"I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand"

"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies"

"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent"

"...these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

Salvation is life! The life of God! It is eternal!

What do we receive when we believe? LIFE!!

"Go your way, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life"

"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ"

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

"...as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

"For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me".

"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God"

"When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory"

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus"

"...but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"

"...being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life"

"And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."

"And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son"

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life"

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life "

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

If you have the Son, you have LIFE! You don't get life, you have life.

"It is the Spirit who gives life "

"He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive"

"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

"Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

"...your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own"

"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"

"And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."

Salvation is receiving the very LIFE of God!

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo
You've got to be kidding, that you don't understand that!
Sozo,

It is you who has to be kidding.Don't you know the difference between "present" tense and "future" tense?
Do I need to start over at the beginning with you?
No,I think that you need to start over,and this time believe what the Lord Jesus said.
For you to teach that anyone was saved apart from the death & resurrection of Christ, is blasphemous.
I am not teaching salvation apart from the death of Jesus Christ.Instead,the Scriptures state that the sins of believers before the CRoss were "covered":

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered"(Ro.4:6,7).

David lived before the Cross,but through the Lord's forbearence He is able to "cover" David's sins all the while knowning that HE could place those sins on the Lord Jesus at the Cross.And that is exactly what Paul is speaking of in the following verse where he talks about "sins that are past",i.e. the sins of those who lived in previous dispensations:

"...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God"(Ro.3:25).

And the author of Hebrews makes it plain that the death of the Lord Jesus redeemed the sins of those who lived under the dispensation of the law (as did David):

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance"(Heb.9:15).

Those who lived under the law at the time that the Lord Jesus walked the earth were saved and "born of God" when they believed that He is the Christ,the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God... Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"(1Jn.5:1,5).

Those who received the Lord Jesus Christ while He walked the earth were "born of God":

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"(Jn.1:12,13).

It is evident that there were sinners who were saved even before the Cross.There were many that believed that Jesus Christ is the Christ,the Son of God,and upon believing that they were "born of God" and received "everlasting life".

And the Lord Jesus did not say that once they believed that in the future that they would receive "everlasting life" and in the future that they would be passed from death unto life.Instead He used the "present" tense:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:24,25).

In His grace,--Jerry

[Sozo]

You have completely undermined the message of the gospel through this heretical view of yours.And the Lord Jesus did not say that once they believed that in the future that they would receive "everlasting life" and in the future that they would be passed from death unto life.Instead He used the "present" tense: I never said that they must believe in some future tense of the word believe. They believe NOW, but they Holy Spirit could not come until Christ was glorified. Without the Holy Spirit living in the life of the believer they were not saved. They have the promise of salvation (just as did any one under the first covenant), but not the reality. Belief in God was accounted as righteousness, but NONE of them received the promise! You negate the cross, by teaching this heresy of yours, which is damnable! Where do you get this convoluted idea, and why would you make claim to it. What is your evil motivation?

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo
You have completely undermined the message of the gospel through this heretical view of yours.
Sozo,

It is your views which deny what is so plain in Scripture.According to you we must believe that no one was saved before the Cross.But what about the following words of the Lord Jesus?:

"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"(Mt.22:32).

Are we supposed to believe that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were not saved at the time the Lord said those words? Those men were "dead" physically,but they were "alive" spiritually.

And are we supposed to believe that Moses and Elijah were not saved,even though the Apostles saw them with the Lord Jesus at the tranfiguration?:

"And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him"(Mt.17:2,3).
I never said that they must believe in some future tense of the word believe.
I never said that you did.Here are my words again:

"And the Lord Jesus did not say that once they believed that in the future that they would receive "everlasting life" and in the future that they would be passed from death unto life."

I said that the Lord Jesus did not say that once they believed (as in "present tense") that in the future they would receive "everlasting life" and in the future they would be passed from death unto life.

You misrepresent what I said and then you do not answer the point that I made.The Lord Jesus Himself said that at the time they believed (present tense) that they "have everlasting life"(present tense) and are "passed from death unto life"(present tense).

According to your interpretation,they believe now (present tense) but they will not reveive "everlasting life" until later (future tense) and they will not be passed from death unto life until later (future tense).

It is you who is undermining the plain words of the Lord Jesus in order to attempt to make them fit with your mistaken views.
What is your evil motivation?
I can see that when you cannot answer the words of the Lord Jesus in an intelligent manner that you revert to character assassination.

Why cannot you believe the words of the Lord Jesus Christ?Perhaps it is because you put more faith in the "doctrines of men" than in what the Scriptures actually reveal.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo
Where do you get this convoluted idea, and why would you make claim to it.
Sozo,

The vast majority of dispensational teachers say the same thing that I am saying.Here are words from the "New Scofield Study Bible":

"Before the cross man was saved in prospect of Christ's atoning sacrifice,through believing the revelation thus far given him"(note at Genesis 1:28).

The Lord could save those who believed the revelation of God given before the Cross because the Lord knew that he could place the sins of those believers on the Lord Jesus at the Cross.

If you have read any dispensational writers besides Bob Hill and Bob Enyart then you would be aware that they all say that believers were saved before the Cross. All the great dispensational writers,from John Nelson Darby to Sir Robert Anderson,teach that believers were saved before the Cross.

Now you can say that all the dispensationalists beside Bob Hill and Bob Enyart had evil intents because they wrote such a thing.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Sozo,

The vast majority of dispensational teachers say the same thing that I am saying.Here are words from the "New Scofield Study Bible":

"Before the cross man was saved in prospect of Christ's atoning sacrifice,through believing the revelation thus far given him"(note at Genesis 1:28).

The Lord could save those who believed the revelation of God given before the Cross because the Lord knew that he could place the sins of those believers on the Lord Jesus at the Cross.

If you have read any dispensational writers besides Bob Hill and Bob Enyart then you would be aware that they all say that believers were saved before the Cross. All the great dispensational writers,from John Nelson Darby to Sir Robert Anderson,teach that believers were saved before the Cross.

Now you can say that all the dispensationalists beside Bob Hill and Bob Enyart had evil intents because they wrote such a thing.

In His grace,--Jerry

Dear Jerry...

First of all, I have no idea who Bob Hill is, and secondly, I am not an Open View theist. I have read Bob Enyart's The Plot, and have several things that I disagree with, but I have never heard his program, and don't give a flying flip about what he, you, or anyone else teaches. My source of truth comes from the bible, and and the ministry of the Holy Spirit alone.

You are the one that has chosen to twist and ignore the words of Jesus, not me...

"Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. "

Here is another example of how Jesus said that those who believe in Him that rivers of living water will flow from his innermost being. However, it is clear that the rivers did not flow until they received the Spirit, but it "WAS NOT YET GIVEN".

You, John Nelson Darby, and Sir Robert Anderson are confused, and have accepted a false premise to support your unbiblical and heretical view.

Ironic how you accuse me of the "doctrines of men", and then promote your views because someone else says so! :rolleyes:

"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo
My source of truth comes from the bible, and and the ministry of the Holy Spirit alone.
Sozo,

If your source is the Bible,then why do you ignore the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24?
You are the one that has chosen to twist and ignore the words of Jesus, not me...
It is you who twists the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.He did not say that those who believe now will receive in the future "everlasting life" and in the future will be passed from death unto life.
"Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. "
The words there are speaking of the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit and not the "quickening" of the Holy Spirit.
You, John Nelson Darby, and Sir Robert Anderson are confused, and have accepted a false premise to support your unbiblical and heretical view.
Can you quote even one noted Bible teacher that teaches as you do?Just one?
Ironic how you accuse me of the "doctrines of men", and then promote your views because someone else says so!
In case you haven't noticed I have quoted several Bibical sources that support what I say.The Lord Jesus is the Lord of the "living" and not of the "dead".At the transfiguration the Apostles saw both Moses and Elijiah speaking with the Lord Jesus.Are we supposed to believe that they were not saved?

You asked me where I got my convulted idea,so I demonstrated that this idea is shared by many believers and Bible teachers.

Now I will ask you a question.Do you not believe that Abraham,Isaac,Jacob,Moses and Elijiah were saved before the Cross?

And what about Enoch?Here is what the author of Hebrews said about him:

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death,and was not found,because God had translated him;for before his translation he had this testimony,that he pleased God"(Heb.11:5).

This happened before the Cross,but in order to believe your ideas we must somehow force our mind into believing that even though Enoch was translated that he should not see death that he was not saved!
"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect."
The promises which they did not receive are in reference to "eschatological hopes".As a result,the perfecting (Heb.10:14;12:23) of the OT worthies--that is,the realization of their hopes--awaits that of all believers.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Sozo,

If your source is the Bible,then why do you ignore the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24?



I didn't! They say the same thing as what I quoted in John 7. Those who believe have eternal life, and that life is given by the Spirit, when the mystery is realized, which is "Christ in you"The words there are speaking of the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit and not the "quickening" of the Holy Spirit. What the heck? :confused: Can you quote even one noted Bible teacher that teaches as you do?Just one? Not that it matters, but Charles Spurgeon, Major Ian Thomas, David Needham, Bob George, Bill Gillham, Peter Gilquist, Malcolm Smith, and others.

They all believe in an exchanged life.

Are we supposed to believe that they were not saved? They were not saved until Jesus died on the cross, and rose again. They were waiting for the hope of righteousness.Now I will ask you a question.Do you not believe that Abraham,Isaac,Jacob,Moses and Elijiah were saved before the Cross? No, they were not. This happened before the Cross,but in order to believe your ideas we must somehow force our mind into believing that even though Enoch was translated that he should not see death that he was not saved! He did not see physical death, he could not be saved until the penalty for sin was paid... end of story!

[Jerry Shugart]

Sozo,

You say "end of story" but you have never dealt with the words of the Lord Jesus in an intelligent way.

And here are more of His words for you to consider.In regard toi those who were given to Him by the Father,He says:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand"(Jn.10:28,29).

Are we supposed to believe that those who were given to Christ by the Father were not saved despite the fact that they had already been given eternal life?

And here are more words of the Lord Jesus in regard to those who were given to Him before the Cross:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise them up again at the last day"(Jn.6:39).

Here the Lord is saying that none of those given to Him by the Father should be lost,and that HE will raise them up again the last day.

If these people who were given to Him were not saved then we are all in trouble!

And I would like to hear a quote of Spurgeon where he says that nobody was saved before the Cross.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Workman]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Mike,

The church of the present dispensation is His Body:

"...and gave Him to be the head over all things to the Church,which is His Body"(Eph.1:22,23).

Are you saying that you are not a part of the Body,which is His Church?

You say that those who received Paul's later epistles were not members of the Body of Christ,but please read what Paul writes in one of his later epistles:

"For we are members of His Body,of His flesh,and of His bones...I speak concerning Christ and the church"(Eph.5:30,32).

In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry, no. I am NOT the body of CHrist and neither are the Ephesians. Like I said earlier, there is a difference between "the church, which is his body" and the "body of Christ". Those two are by no means the same. The body of Christ was the visible church. The "church, which is his body" did not occur until after Acts 28 and it is the INvisible church.
The body of Christ comes with VISIBLE GIFTS and OFFICES.
The church which is his body COULD NOT.
Grace,
Mike
PS. Ask yourself this question...what is your gift or office? Because everybody who was a part of the church of God had one. Things might have changed with that after Acts 28 SOME, but the church of God is also the body of Christ. This is clear from studying out I.Cor.12 where it talks about his body and what God GAVE to his church. Anyway, in I.Tim.3 the church of GOD is called the CHurch of the living God, the HOUSE of God. In II.Tim.2 Timothy is told that IN THIS HOUSE are vessels of DISHONOUR and of wood and etc. THIS CHURCH MUST BE VISIBLE AND LOCAL.
The church, which is his body is WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH. IT IS A GLORIOUS church. That can't be the same as the church of God, therefore.

[Workman]

Also Jerry, in Eph. 5 it was never called the body of Christ. The phrase is not there. It is called HIS BODY and it is called THE CHURCH...therefore it is "the church, which is his body".

[Jerry Shugart]

Mike,

Paul says that there is but "one Body" (Eph.4:4),but you say that there are two--"the body of Christ" and "the Church,which is His body".

You also say:
Also Jerry, in Eph. 5 it was never called the body of Christ. The phrase is not there. It is called HIS BODY and it is called THE CHURCH...therefore it is "the church, which is his body".
In the very same chapter where Paul says that there is only "one Body" he also says:

...for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ"(Eph.4:12).

So Paul says that there is only one Body but you say that there are two.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Workman]

There can be two bodies. Just not two of the same type. There can be 2 bodies, but not two of the same type. There can be two churches, just not two of the same type.
When the Christians divided Paul's word, they would have understood what Paul meant by ONE BODY. They knew it was not a ref. to the body of Christ. I would argue that you have two bodies. One with gifts, and one without. Which one are you? Because the one cancels out the other.
Also in Eph. 4 he may mention the body of Christ, but here is the rest:


Ephesians 4:13-16 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

When I got saved I put on the NEW MAN. THIS is my body.
Also, they did not just go to Eph.4. They would have read from Eph.1 FORWARD. So, by the time they got to Eph. 4's one body, they would have not been confused.
Grace,
Mike
Also, in Eph.4 you will notice that they were of the body of Christ and knew it, BUT looking forward to the knowledge of a PERFECT MAN. This is not Christ. They knew him already. That, in context, could only be the new man. It was the complete knowledge of the Son of God. The Acts body was NOT a perfect man...it had gifts that were to be laid aside when the time came.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Workman
There can be two bodies.
Paul says in no uncertain terms that there is but "one Body".
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

When I got saved I put on the NEW MAN.
Here is a description of the NEW MAN:

"And have put on the New Man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free"(Col.3:10,11).

And here are Paul's words inthe epistle to the Galatians in regard to putting on Christ:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28).

Here the New Man is described as being identical to the "Body of Christ" where "there is no Jew nor Greek" nor "bond or free".Paul even uses the same term in regard to the New Man as the Body of Christ--"put on".

So since Paul makes it quite plain that there is only "one Body" then it is equally plain that the "Body of Christ" is the same as the "New Man".

In His grace,--Jerry

[Workman]

There are some key difference between Gal and Col/Eph.
Are you the spiritual seed of Abraham?

[Jerry Shugart]

Mike,

Yes,but there are key differences between all the different epistles.

And yes,I am a spiritual seed of Abraham.Are you not?

In His grace,--Jerry

[Workman]

If I was the spiritual seed of Abraham I would be obligated to follow the doctrine of Galatians. In which case, I would be COMPLETELY and directly in prophecy. In which case, there would be no unsearchable riches of CHrist. The blessing of Abraham is TOTALLY SEARCHABLE in the law and the prophets because it is the New Covenant. I can not be BOTH chosen in him before the foundation of the world as the Church, which is his body, while simultaneously being heirs according to the promise made to Abraham.
Things that differ are never equal. So, no. I would have to say that I am not the seed of Abraham.
Grace,
Mike

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Workman
The blessing of Abraham is TOTALLY SEARCHABLE in the law and the prophets because it is the New Covenant.
Mike,

The blessing of Abraham was not totally made known in the OT prophecies.This part was not made known:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ"(Gal.3:16).

And since we are "Christ's" then we are heirs according to the promise:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise"(Gal.3:29).

Again,this verse is in regard to the words which immediately precedes verse 19:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28).

This is exactly the same thing as the New Man:

"And have put on the New Man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free"(Col.3:10,11).

Putting on the "New Man" is the same thing as putting on Christ.And by putting on Christ we are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

That is why Paul writes that the Gentiles are "fellow heirs" with the Jewish believes:

"That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"(Eph.3:6).

The Gentiles are fellow "heirs" along with the Jewish believers and we are partakers of the promise "in Christ" i.e.,because we are in the Body of Christ.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Workman]

The blessing of Abraham was not totally made known in the OT prophecies.This part was not made known:

Jerry, of course they did not look forward to the cross...but the death of Christ WAS found in the scriptures FOR THESE PEOPLE specifically so...?

Putting on the "New Man" is the same thing as putting on Christ.And by putting on Christ we are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise

no. Not at all in fact. There are dispensational differences galore. Dispy's assume it to be so because that is how it is commonly presented, but when a person was putting on the Christ it was not that they CEASED TO BE MALE OR FEMALE, and JEW AND GENTILE- only that there was neither male nor female IN THE SENSE THAT NONE HAD THE ADVANTAGE. There was no JEW NOR GENTILE in the sense that none had the advantage. Remember, the book of Gal. is about the New Covenant (which is NOT to me). Gal 2 shows that Paul had the good news of the UNcircumcision, Peter had the good news of the CIRCUMCISION

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Why was there neither Jew nor Greek? Was it because a distinction COULD not be found, or that a distinction SHOULD NOT BE ELEVATED as it was in times past? Because it SHOULD NOT BE ELVEVATED as in times past. The reason why there is neither Greek nor Jew was "for ye are all one in Christ Jesus". They were all ONE...Jews, Gentiles, WOMEN, and males were ALL able to be HEIRS according to the New Covenant. Again, I do not have the New Covenant. If I had the New Covenant, I would need to go find a Jewish believer and bless him because I would be made a partaker of HIS spiritual things just like Paul had been teaching all the churches during the Acts period. No, Israel had NOT been set aside...only the UNBELIEVING JEWS were cast off.

Paul write on this SAME CONCEPT in chapter 6. There is neither circumcision nor uncircumcision in the sense that it DOES NOT AVAIL-not that it does not EXIST. Again, if it was that it did not exist then the Galatians had NO good news...Because the WHOLE POINT is that the Jews and Gentiles that believed were identified with the same gospel. It was the same gospel for both saved groups...."YOU ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM".

Galatians 6:15-16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

It would be like Paul saying "DOn't elevate the FLESH, the OLD COVENANT, ELEVATE THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A NEW CREATURE".

Also, the new creature was the individual believer, it was NOT corporate like the New Man. NOTE: "a" New Creature, not "the" New Creature. " NOTICE TOO: "one" New Man and THE New Man, not "a" New Man. The new man is a GROUP, a NEW CREATURE was every individual person that had the New Covenant. All the ref. to both phrases are below.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

When one puts on the New Man it is not a matter of one or the other NOT HAVING THE ADVANTAGE...it just flat out DOES NOT EXIST.

Think about it, again...if being a NEW CREATURE meant that a Jew was no longer to be a Jew or a Gentile a Gentile, that would contradict everything that went on in the entire book of Acts because even MidActs dispensationalism is founded on "the circumcision vs. the UNcircumcision"...and that being even AFTER a man got saved.

Check this out...you have said that the New Man/"church which is his body" is the same thing as "the body of Christ". WE BOTH KNOW that in the New Man all racial distinctions VANISH! Not so with the body of Christ...they may not be Gentiles that are gone after idols...but they are new Gentiles...Gentiles that are identified with Christ...anyway.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

notice, whether we BE Jews, whether we BE Bond...NOT: whether we WERE GENTILES, whether we WERE bond. If Paul felt like that all disappeared then he should have given him doctrine to match it for everyday living...like the fact that the New Man has NO ORDINANCES...but he didn't>>

1 Corinthians 7:18-24 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

NOTE: STILL circumcision contrasted to uncircumcision...and STAY IN YOUR CALLING.
STILL Servant (bond) vs. Free...and remain in YOUR calling.

now, here are ordinances...
1 Corinthians 11:1-2 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.


That is why Paul writes that the Gentiles are "fellow heirs" with the Jewish believes:

Yep, they are...but the problem is that HOW God did that was he gave the Gentiles the SAME KINGDOM as the Jews, but WITHOUT being grafted in. So God reached out to a Gentile that was "afar off", saved him, and then the man LOOSES his identification in THAT body.

Anyway, I am really busy with a lot of stuff so this will be my last detailed post on this thread.
I suggest, if you are interested in studying this from a 28ers perspective= www.heavendwellers.com www.bibleunderstanding.com
or, you can contact me through www.ourchurch.com/member/n/NeedSeed
that site has a whole study dedicate to these issues.
Grace,
Mike
Good luck

[Jerry Shugart]

Mike,

Your ideas are based on the idea that the "Body of Christ" is not the same thing as "the church,which is His Body".So to you there are "two bodies" and not "one" as Paul says:

"There is one Body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling"(Eph.4:4).

You also have to deny that the two groups are diffent even though they are described in the same way by Paul.Here is his description of the Body of Christ:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28).

This is exactly the same thing as the New Man,the "Church,which is His Body":

"And have put on the New Man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free"(Col.3:10,11).

But you say that these are two,entirely different Bodies.I just cannot believe that there are "two" Bodies because Paul says that there is just "one".And I cannot believe that the descriptions of the Body of Christ" and the Church,which is His Body,are in reference to two different Bodies.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Workman]

Jerry, you can believe what you wish. The facts are there.
But I would urge you to be consistent. If you TRULY BELIEVE that you are a part of the Acts body then you need to take up a collection for believing Jews, because Paul never said that a day would come that that would change. The only way for it to make sense is to say that a DIFFERENT DISPENSATION came in.

[Jerry Shugart]

There are some sincere believers that teach that the Twelve Apostles were not members of the Body of Christ.

However,an examination of the phrase "in Christ" reveals that the Twelve were indeed members of His Body:

"So we,being many,are one Body in Christ"(Ro.12:5).

Being "in Christ" refers to the "New Ceation",the "New Man",which is the Body of Christ:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a New Creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"(2Cor.5:17).

The New Creation is the New Man,the Body of Christ,where there is neither Greek nor Jew,circumcision or uncircumcision:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything,nor uncircumcision,but a New Creation"(Gal.6:15).

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all One in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28).

The same exact thing is said in reference to the "New Man":

"And have put on the New Man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision", Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all"(Col.3:10,11).

And Paul makes it plain that both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers are BOTH included in the Body of Christ:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of two One New Man, so making peace;And that He might reconcile both unto God in One Body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"(Eph.2:15,16).

So the phrase "in Christ" means being in the Body of Christ.So it is not surprising that we see that Peter includes the Jewish believers in the Body of Christ:

"Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus"(1Pet.5:14).

Remember,Paul says that "if any man be in Christ he is a New Creation"(2Cor.5:17).

And by Peter's words there can be no doubt that those who received his epistles were indeed "in Christ",so therefore there is no doubt that they are members of the New Man,the Body of Christ.

John tells the Jewish believes that their "life" is in the Son:

"And this is the record,that God hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

So by understanding the meaning of "in Christ" we can know that the Jewish believers who lived at the time Paul wrote his epistles were indeed members of the Body of Christ.We an also know that Paul was not the first member of the Body of Christ.Paul says:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"(Ro.16:7).

Paul also speaks of churches that were established before he was saved as being "in Christ":

"And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ"(Gal.1:22).

"For ye,brethen,became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus"(1Thess.2:14).

In His grace,--Jerry

[Workman]

Jerry, you are the one teaching two bodies. How? by taking the truths of Eph. and trying to cram them into the Body of Christ. You need to divide Paul's word like he commands us to do and everything would make sense.

But again, why aren't you seeking out the Jew to give them financial support. Paul did not say in Acts OR AFTERWARDS that that time was to ever come. So, why aren't you doing this? I mean, you DO believe that you are grafted into Israel in Rom. 11, so what's up?

Furthermore, I CAN'T be called the uncircumcision! Eph. 2 says that that was just a TIMES PAST statement. But the Gentiles of the Acts period, both in Acts and his epistles, were CALLED the UNcircumcision.
Things that differ are never equal. Give to the Church, what belongs to the Church, and give to Israel what is Israel's.
Grace
-Mike

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Workman
Jerry, you are the one teaching two bodies. How? by taking the truths of Eph. and trying to cram them into the Body of Christ. You need to divide Paul's word like he commands us to do and everything would make sense.
Mike,

It is you who keeps insisting that the Body of Christ that Paul mentions at 1Cor.12:13,27 is not the same as "the Church,which is His Body" of Eph.1:22,23.

You say that there are "two" bodies despite the fact that Paul says that there is just "one Body"(Eph.4:4).
But again