Originally Posted by Chileice
I agree that we must make a choice. If we do NOT choose to serve Jesus, we have chosen not to and we remain as the unbelieving Jews to whom Jesus was addressing His words. We cannot serve God and man. God is NOT mocked, if we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption. But a servant can and does make mistakes. Imagine if people were fired the one and only time they made an error on the job.
Imagine if David had been stoned to death for committing adultery with Bathsheba and having her husband, Uriah, murdered. God's law required
that David be put to death for adultery and murder, yet God's mercy as a father trumped his law. David repented and wrote, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me
with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted
unto thee" (Psalm 51:10-13). That is the prodigal son returning home, and that is what we are debating--what it truly means to come home.
What if David the prodigal son had continued to sin after returning home? Based on what Jesus said in John 8:34, David would have been a servant of sin, not a son, and servant cannot remain in God's house forever(John 8:35), only a son can remain.
Did David continue to sin after he repented? Absolutely not,
or the word of God is untrue. It is written: "Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite
" (1Kings 15:5). David's heart was perfect
(1Ki 11:4; 1Ki 15:3), for God said he was, "a man after mine own heart" (Acts 13:22).
My opponent agrees that we must make a choice. He said, "If we do NOT choose to serve Jesus, we have chosen not to and we remain as the unbelieving." However, he has not explained how one can serve Jesus while they serve sin, which is not possible. While he rightly points to the parable of the prodigal son as evidence that God's mercy trumps our death sentence, he has not explained how the parable supports his position of a born again believer continuing to sin. The prodigal son returns home to abide, not to leave again and return again over and over.
A better parable for this debate is the parable of the two sons (Mat 21:28-32):
|But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first, and said, ‘Son, go work today in my vineyard.’ He answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind, and went. He came to the second, and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but he didn’t go. Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I tell you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering into the Kingdom of God before you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you didn’t believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. When you saw it, you didn’t even repent afterward, that you might believe him. (Matt 21:28-32)|
That parable should leave you with no doubt that we must do the will of God, not merely claim to "believe in" Jesus when we do not do as he did and said to do. In fact, Jesus told them that they should have believed John's (the baptist) message, which is the same as his--repent from sin completely. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "go, and sin no more" (John 8:11). Could she have claimed to believe Jesus and was serving him if she sinned more? No. Therefore, the choice is obvious, but how to make that choice appears elusive. More on that later in the debate.
Question 5: What is sanctification?
Please explain what sanctification is, and give a practical example of progressive sanctification.
Response to your answers of my previous questions:
|Question 1: Will those "workers of lawlessness" be excluded for their "good deeds" or for their sin?|
Answer: It will be for their unbelief as I have shown. There unwillingness to accept Jesus.
The people obviously believed that Jesus is Lord, calling him that and performing miracles in his name. Therefore, your answer needs clarification. Please answer the question again. Is their unbelief evidenced by their iniquity (sin)?
|Question 2: How does grace keep us even if we sin in light of Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:26-29?|
Answer: I believe one has to read the ENTIRE book of Hebrews to get the whole picture. ...There are NO other sacrifices for sin other than that which Jesus made on Calvary.
I consider your answer unresponsive because the verses in context makes the point that willful sin committed under grace result in condemnation and destruction as a sinner. They talk about willfully sinning in spite of grace. (See also 1Jo 3:6; 1Jo 3:8; and 1Jo 5:18) Please answer the question.
|Question 3: Do you agree that Peter was not converted before the cross?|
Answer: No, I do not agree.... I think Peter “returned to” Christ. ...I think he was converted, fell away by sinning and then came back to Christ and was accepted on the beach with warm fish and an open heart by Jesus.
I don't follow your logic. You equate conversion with being saved. I have shown you that Peter was not converted prior to the cross. You state that "Peter “returned to” Christ," but obviously that was not prior to the cross based on Luke 22:32, and you have given no evidence that he returned to Christ prior to the cross. Therefore, it seems that your answer cannot be true. Please answer the question again in a way that is logical.
|Question 4: Do you agree that conversion is required for salvation?|
My answers to your questions:
Question 5: Would you disown your children for disobedience?
Chileice Question 6: Why do you think God would disown us for disobedience in light of the parable of the Prodigal Son and in light of his forgiving attitude toward Peter?
He doesn't disown his children. He destroys unrepentant sinners who refuse to believe that they can be his child and act like his child.
Chileice Question7: What would be the advantage of becoming a Christian early in life if you were always afraid of irredeemably losing your salvation if you sinned?
There would be no advantage. I don't believe that salvation can be lost, only rejected.