Lamerson seems to have good background and a good attitude. He is to be commended. His spell checker seems to be working.
I do not think he should limit himself to the Gospels, since many relevant passages are found in the OT (starting in Genesis). We need the whole teaching of Scripture and God's progressive revelation to understand this topic.
Other issues that are pertinent include the nature of time/eternity/free will, etc. These may not be explicit in Scripture and will have to be approached from a logical/philosophical point of view (in addition to Scripture). Timelessness/'eternal now' will lead to different conclusions that and endless time/duration view of God's experience. Exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies must be shown to be a logical contradiction/absurdity. There will not be one proof text to do this.
The issue with Peter and Judas involves proximal vs remote knowledge. We cannot extrapolate simple foreknowledge from these two examples. Alternate explanations are plausible, if not probable.
Mt. 6:8 is not a common proof text for either position. Sam anticipates objections, but the most we can conclude is that God has perfect past and present knowledge. Extrapolating exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies from this text would be proof texting or eisegesis. It is not reasonable to assume that God knows specifically what we need from trillions of years ago before we existed. He is a providential Creator and does know our past, present, and future needs in general terms. He may know I need money to get out of debt, but His options are not limited to one predestined or foreknown course to meet that need. He may provide a job, but I may turn it down, creating a need for a different set of contingencies to meet my need.
Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)
They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")
I agree with godrulz. I don't understand why Dr. Lamerson feels the need to give his evidence based exclusively through the "lens" of Jesus. This seems odd to me. The very nature of God is key here. Pulling one's evidence from just a portion of time or scripture is too limiting for this kind of topic.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16
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You , too, can have an exciting and glamorous engineering career like me!
Reputation:
August 1st, 2005, 02:19 PM
A good opening post for Dr. Lamerson. Some initial thoughts:
1. Dr. Lamerson should focus on the Sciptures. I got a bit lost with "Boyd said this..." and "Sander's said that..." quotes. I have not read any writings by Boyd or Sanders so felt I was missing something.
2. I liked the Peter example. I find it highy unlikely that Jesus "guessed" that Peter would deny him simply because Jesus knew Peter well.
3. Dr Lamerson spells out exactly what he will attempt to prove:
Quote:
With those opening observations out of the way, it is now important to set forth exactly what I hope to prove in this debate. The argument is relatively simple: If Jesus believed that either his Father knew the future or he himself knew the future about any particular issue that involves free human choices, then one is forced to either construct a theology that allows for error on the part of Jesus, or admit that God cannot be said to have been “open” on those issues. In defense of the idea that Jesus views both his Father and himself as knowing inerrantly certain future actions (actions that hinge upon the free choices of humans) I will present several specific passages from the Gospels. I will begin with one and move on to others as the debate continues.
I will definitely keep this in mind when I'm reading through Dr. Lamerson's posts.
4. Dr Lamerson gives good examples of Sctipture stating God can and does know the fututre. Matthew 6:8 is a clear example of this.
Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu
What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO
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I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio
I have read the three rounds of presentations concerning “Openess theology.”
It should be clear to all individuals that the nature and attributes of the Godhead are being addressed.
In this debate, there is no middle ground.
Either you believe that God does not change or that He does. Whoever is on the wrong side is not a Christian.
This is not some mere academic argument.
If God can change, I cannot have trust in Him. Stop and consider.
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed
If God cannot completely know all things, my future is uncertain. Stop and consider.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
If God does not have complete power, I could be swept away. Stop and consider.
Rom 8: 36 - 39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God’s people always expressed confidence in their hope. Here are a couple of examples of this certainty.
Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Remember,
Gal 6: 7-9 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
God has written to His people in plain words and they are knowable. Stop and consider.
Slogan/motto:
THE CHAMPION OF THE CONSTITUTION AND DEFENDER OF LIBERTY
Reputation:
August 17th, 2005, 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard A
Greetings All,
I have read the three rounds of presentations concerning “Openess theology.”
It should be clear to all individuals that the nature and attributes of the Godhead are being addressed.
In this debate, there is no middle ground.
Either you believe that God does not change or that He does. Whoever is on the wrong side is not a Christian.
This is not some mere academic argument.
If God can change, I cannot have trust in Him. Stop and consider.
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed
If God cannot completely know all things, my future is uncertain. Stop and consider.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
If God does not have complete power, I could be swept away. Stop and consider.
Rom 8: 36 - 39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God’s people always expressed confidence in their hope. Here are a couple of examples of this certainty.
Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Remember,
Gal 6: 7-9 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
God has written to His people in plain words and they are knowable. Stop and consider.
Leonard A.
E4E's SPOTD 08/17/2005
Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?
Either you believe that God does not change or that He does. Whoever is on the wrong side is not a Christian.
Too strong a statement.
Quote:
If God can change, I cannot have trust in Him.
You apparently don't know the OV position.
Quote:
If God cannot completely know all things, my future is uncertain.
No. Because God is all-powerful, He makes the future certain. That is not to say that He 'looks into the future.' God declares the end from the beginning. God does not 'see' or 'create' the end from the beginning.
I delared on Sunday that I would drive to Denver on Monday. On Monday, I used my power to actually drive to Denver. Did I see the future?
Quote:
Stop and consider.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Yes, stop and consider. God's cousel shall stand, and He "will do," when the time comes, all His pleasure.
Quote:
If God does not have complete power, I could be swept away. Stop and consider.
Stop and consider that no one said God doesn't have complete power.
"I believe in Christianity, as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis
"Don't believe that there's nothing that's true, don't believe in this modern machine." Switchfoot
Response:
1. Context is important. I was talking about the nature and attributes of God. The is critical. If you do not have a right understanding/belief in God, you are worshiping another God. Please re-read.
Paul warns a number of times of about people.
Ro 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Is this too strong?
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. Is this too strong?
2Ti 2:17,18 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Is this too strong?
I could go on. However, if you read the Rom 16.17 passage true believers are to observe and mark those who are contrary. Stop and consider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmiley
You apparently don't know the OV position.
Response:
I am addressing the particular positon of the OV that God changes as stated in the debate. This is the focus of my comments. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmiley
No. Because God is all-powerful, He makes the future certain. That is not to say that He 'looks into the future.' God declares the end from the beginning. God does not 'see' or 'create' the end from the beginning.
I delared on Sunday that I would drive to Denver on Monday. On Monday, I used my power to actually drive to Denver. Did I see the future?
Response:
ALL - In reference to God, this means that He is complete. If anything is added to God (e.g., learning future events), God is not complete. Be very careful. Stop and consider.
Secondly, We are talking about serious and eternal issues. You must reconsider such an expamle you are using. Read Ps 50:21 below. Stop and consider.
Ps 50:21 These [things] hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether [such an one] as thyself: [but] I will reprove thee, and set [them] in order before thine eyes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmiley
Yes, stop and consider. God's cousel shall stand, and He "will do," when the time comes, all His pleasure.
Response:
When the "time comes." This phrase has put a limit on God. You have constrained Him by time which is His creation. According to your words He is not complete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmiley
Stop and consider that no one said God doesn't have complete power.
Response:
Whatever area that touchs on the attributes of God He govens it completely. There cannot be any external constraints. This would violate the nature of God.
Da 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
To put the last statement in the context of this post. "What doest thou? Remember, there are eternal repercussions. As I said in my first post. This is not a mere academic argument.
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Christian
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Reputation:
August 17th, 2005, 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard A
Greetings All,
I have read the three rounds of presentations concerning “Openess theology.”
It should be clear to all individuals that the nature and attributes of the Godhead are being addressed.
In this debate, there is no middle ground.
Either you believe that God does not change or that He does. Whoever is on the wrong side is not a Christian.
This is not some mere academic argument.
If God can change, I cannot have trust in Him. Stop and consider.
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed
If God cannot completely know all things, my future is uncertain. Stop and consider.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
If God does not have complete power, I could be swept away. Stop and consider.
Rom 8: 36 - 39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God’s people always expressed confidence in their hope. Here are a couple of examples of this certainty.
Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Remember,
Gal 6: 7-9 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
God has written to His people in plain words and they are knowable. Stop and consider.
Leonard A.
That's facinating. Now open theists are not Christians.
And yet it is the Calvinists on this thread (and others) that claim God orders the rape of babies and intentionally formulated such actions into His "plan".
"The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders
Slogan/motto:
THE CHAMPION OF THE CONSTITUTION AND DEFENDER OF LIBERTY
Reputation:
August 17th, 2005, 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clete
That's facinating. Now open theists are not Christians.
And yet it is the Calvinists on this thread (and others) that claim God orders the rape of babies and intentionally formulated such actions into His "plan".
Stop and consider indeed.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete, you continue to lie. I am beginning to think that is your character. You are just a lier. You can't help it you just lie. I had though better of you. Guess I was wrong.
Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?
I agree with godrulz. I don't understand why Dr. Lamerson feels the need to give his evidence based exclusively through the "lens" of Jesus. This seems odd to me. The very nature of God is key here. Pulling one's evidence from just a portion of time or scripture is too limiting for this kind of topic.
I agree. This seems to me to be not so much an attempt to focus the discussion... as just a ploy to take all the books of prophecy and history out of the picture! And this is where we find the vast majority of scriptural foundation for the Open View! Lamerson knows this. It is somewhat cunning, albeit transparent imho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STONE
Settled? Apparently settled meaning "will likely occur to some degree".
Where did you get that definition? Settled basically means definite. If God foreknows something as definitely going to happen, then that aspect of the future is "settled." The OV generally holds that God knows the future. Namely, that He knows the future exactly as it is -- partly settled and mostly open. He knows that in an open situation, it may happen one way or another, or perhaps it will probably happen one way, and unlikely to happen another. That is how it is, and that is how God sees it, exactly as it is -- open and unsettled.
The term "settled" removes causation from the issue, which is useful because of all the equivocation on the term "determined." You can determine something in the sense of foreordaining it, or determine it passively as in the case of middle knowledge. But if something in the future is "settled," this has nothing to do with whether God caused it or not, and simply means that it's definitely going to happen that way.
1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have ... all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing.
BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3) -
July 27th, 2005, 12:19 PM
- TomO
-Ktoyou
Hybrid Mode
