[vegascowboy]

Do any of you have anything that you traditionally read, either alone or with your spouse/kids/family, for Christmas?

Many (if not all) Christians, including myself, read the Bible at Christmas, but are there any other books that you like to read during the Christmas season?

Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol, for example.

[csuguy]

Christmas... a good old pagan (and now commercial) holiday.

[vegascowboy]

Originally Posted by csuguy

Christmas... a good old pagan (and now commercial) holiday.

Yes, yes....I get all that.

BUT, what can I say? I am a nostalgic sort of fellow, and I believe in the good that Christmas can represent.

As Fred said in A Christmas Carol...

"But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come round -- apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that -- as a good time: a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time: the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. And therefore...though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!''

It is an utter shame that people cannot act in a charitable fashion year round, as it were, but I do believe in the good Christmas can bring if we allow it to.

Bring me the snow (well, not here perhaps) and the gingerbread and the beautiful nativities and the carols and the cocoa and all the lovely, good things.

Commercialization is a blight, to be sure, but there is much that is sparkling about Christmas time.

Wacky, silly me.

[csuguy]

Originally Posted by vegascowboy

It is an utter shame that people cannot act in a charitable fashion year round, as it were, but I do believe in the good Christmas can bring if we allow it to.

Wacky, silly me.

I've heard many people talk about how they want to make Christmas Christian- and then they go out and get all the presents for their friends and loved ones, they get together for a dinner or something, and they just enjoy themselves. Oh, and of course they make sure to decorate their homes with pagan idols (xmas trees). In the end, everyone has a great time - but it is no more a "Christian" event than a bday party.

[vegascowboy]

You raise some interesting points, and a few questions, if I may?

And here I am about to derail my own thread and risk making it into a gloopy, dark thing, but here goes...

Originally Posted by csuguy

I've heard many people talk about how they want to make Christmas Christian...

I have heard the same; some are succesful (at least in their own situation), and some probably are not. I say it is worth a try anyway.

...and then they go out and get all the presents for their friends and loved ones, they get together for a dinner or something, and they just enjoy themselves.

Such terrible things you say! We mustn't give gifts out of love and we must avoid dining at all costs. And as for enjoying ourselves...perish the thought! In all seriousness, though, I see your point. Christmas, to be truly Christian, is more than this. Although I do not see anything inherently bad in any of it if we keep our heads in the right place.

Oh, and of course they make sure to decorate their homes with pagan idols (xmas trees).

Pagan in origin, perhaps, but must it always remain so that we remember this? Can we not change the tradition to reflect something more Christlike? IDK the answer to that, it was just a thought. If we teach our children to think of a Christmas tree as something else, would that work?

In the end, everyone has a great time - but it is no more a "Christian" event than a bday party.

But there is so much that can be done to make it less birthdaypartyish (howd ya like that word?) and more Christ-centered. I am not prepared to give up on Christmas and abandon it to the atheist masses.

I am a positive thinker (or, at least, I strive to be) and I believe that Christ can be crept in Christmas.

Now stop being a negative Nunu and humor me (I say that a lot on TOL)...

Have you or do you ever read anything that brings you joy and may be called a tradition for the Christmas season?

If not, then please mosey on over to that little button that says New Thread and create one entitled "All The Stuff That's Wrong With The Christmas Holiday" and leave this one be.

[csuguy]

Originally Posted by vegascowboy

I have heard the same; some are succesful (at least in their own situation), and some probably are not. I say it is worth a try anyway.

You should try to live like a Christian everyday, Christmas shouldn't be anything special.

Such terrible things you say! We mustn't give gifts out of love and we must avoid dining at all costs. And as for enjoying ourselves...perish the thought! In all seriousness, though, I see your point. Christmas, to be truly Christian, is more than this. Although I do not see anything inherently bad in any of it if we keep our heads in the right place.

It's fine the way it is - so long as you don't try to pass it off as a Christian holiday. If you truly wanted to live out Christian principles on Christmas, however, you would abandon all of the above and would instead go out and help the needy and preach the gospel.

Pagan in origin, perhaps, but must it always remain so that we remember this? Can we not change the tradition to reflect something more Christlike? IDK the answer to that, it was just a thought. If we teach our children to think of a Christmas tree as something else, would that work?

it is that same thought process which produced the sharrade that is Christmas in the first place. When they Catholics tried to force convert the pagans, they decided to *Christianize* their holidays. That way the pagans could more or less keep doing what they had always done with a hint of Christian ideas thrown in the mix. It was simply a way to make the 'transition' easier - people are easier to control if you let them keep doing what they were already doing.

And no - I don't think indoctrinating your children with lies is the way to turn it into a Christian holiday. That is a way to lie to your children and make a mockery of Christianity.

But there is so much that can be done to make it less birthdaypartyish (howd ya like that word?) and more Christ-centered. I am not prepared to give up on Christmas and abandon it to the atheist masses.

If you want to make that day Christian - then you will have to give up all that Christmas is to begin with.

I am a positive thinker (or, at least, I strive to be) and I believe that Christ can be crept in Christmas.

Sugar-coating road-apples does not make them ok to eat.

Have you or do you ever read anything that brings you joy and may be called a tradition for the Christmas season?

If not, then please mosey on over to that little button that says New Thread and create one entitled "All The Stuff That's Wrong With The Christmas Holiday" and leave this one be.

I don't read stuff for Christmas - I watch movies I suppose Scrooge is a classic for the season. I think they came out with a Muppets version last year that wasn't half bad.

If you insist - I won't rain on your parade any longer

[Nydhogg]

Originally Posted by vegascowboy

Pagan in origin, perhaps, but must it always remain so that we remember this? Can we not change the tradition to reflect something more Christlike? IDK the answer to that, it was just a thought. If we teach our children to think of a Christmas tree as something else, would that work?

Some would rather have a Yule tree keep being a Yule tree, with all the awesome stuff it represents.

[Ktoyou]

Originally Posted by csuguy

I've heard many people talk about how they want to make Christmas Christian- and then they go out and get all the presents for their friends and loved ones, they get together for a dinner or something, and they just enjoy themselves. Oh, and of course they make sure to decorate their homes with pagan idols (xmas trees). In the end, everyone has a great time - but it is no more a "Christian" event than a bday party.

Well, OK then. I sure would not want to spend Christmas at your home, just a bore.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by csuguy

Christmas... a good old pagan (and now commercial) holiday.

Christians celebrating the Nativity of the Lord is a "pagan" practice...?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[MrDeets]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Christians celebrating the Nativity of the Lord is a "pagan" practice...?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Apparently since there have been pagan "things" happen somewhere, sometime in history on December 25th, we cannot celebrate/worship/talk about/ or even think about Jesus Christ on that day. At least thats what I've gathered from csuguy's posts. is right.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by jmdeets

Apparently since there have been pagan "things" happen somewhere, sometime in history on December 25th, we cannot celebrate/worship/talk about/ or even think about Jesus Christ on that day. At least thats what I've gathered from csuguy's posts. is right.

Apparently, csuguy has never taken an introductory Logic course. If he had, he would know that his objections to Christmas are based upon something called the Genetic Fallacy. This is the leap of logic which evaluates something in the present according to its origins in the past.

For example, the claim that "Halloween is a 'pagan' celebration because it began as a druid ceremony!" Of course, this is patented nonsense. Unless there are modern-day druids running around and performing pagan rites every October 31st, it's simply irrational to assert that today---in our time and culture---Halloween is "pagan." It may have begun as a pagan celebration---but that is not what it means to us today. csuguy's "logic" concerning Christmas follows the same distorted line of false reasoning. He's simply engaged in the Genetic Fallacy.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[csuguy]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Apparently, csuguy has never taken an introductory Logic course. If he had, he would know that his objections to Christmas are based upon something called the Genetic Fallacy. This is the leap of logic which evaluates something in the present according to its origins in the past.

For example, the claim that "Halloween is a 'pagan' celebration because it began as a druid ceremony!" Of course, this is patented nonsense. Unless there are modern-day druids running around and performing pagan rites every October 31st, it's simply irrational to assert that today---in our time and culture---Halloween is "pagan." It may have begun as a pagan celebration---but that is not what it means to us today. csuguy's "logic" concerning Christmas follows the same distorted line of false reasoning. He's simply engaged in the Genetic Fallacy.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Perhaps you should review your fallacies, since you clearly don't understand the Genetic Fallacy. Tell me, do you think it is a Genetic Fallacy to reject a prophecy from a prophet who has been shown to be false? Christmas is not like a logical argument where the origin of the argument doesn't matter.

Furthermore, my critique extends past its clear pagan origins and examines the present as well. Nothing about Christmas in the present is fundamentally Christian. Its a time of getting together with friends and family and giving your loved ones presents. Its fun to be sure: but there is nothing that sets it apart as Christian in nature.

[csuguy]

Originally Posted by jmdeets

Apparently since there have been pagan "things" happen somewhere, sometime in history on December 25th, we cannot celebrate/worship/talk about/ or even think about Jesus Christ on that day. At least thats what I've gathered from csuguy's posts. is right.

Wrong - that's not the issue. The issue is that everything about Christmas is paganism/commercialism. There is nothing fundamentally Christian about the holiday. You can celebrate it all you want - but don't call it a Christian Holiday when it clearly isn't.

[MrDeets]

Originally Posted by csuguy

but don't call it a Christian Holiday when it clearly isn't.

I NEVER DID! CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW??!!??!!??!!??! Good.

[ghost]

Originally Posted by csuguy

There is nothing fundamentally Christian about the holiday.

Be honest, you just hate this song :

Hark the herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!
Peace on earth and mercy mild
God and sinners reconciled"
Joyful, all ye nations rise
Join the triumph of the skies
With the angelic host proclaim:
"Christ is born in Bethlehem"
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"

Christ by highest heav'n adored
Christ the everlasting Lord!
Late in time behold Him come
Offspring of a Virgin's womb
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
Hail the incarnate Deity
Pleased as man with man to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"

Hail the heav'n-born Prince of Peace!
Hail the Son of Righteousness!
Light and life to all He brings
Ris'n with healing in His wings
Mild He lays His glory by
Born that man no more may die
Born to raise the sons of earth
Born to give them second birth
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"