[Ben Masada]

The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53


There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!

The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.

The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.

Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His annointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben

[Nick Hallandale]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53


There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!

The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.

The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.

Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His annointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben

I agree that Isaiah 53 refers to Israel. [Jacob]
Isaiah 53 personifies the suffering servant as the Bible does in many places.
Hosea 11:1 (New American Standard Bible)
When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Nick Hallandale

I agree that Isaiah 53 refers to Israel. [Jacob]
Isaiah 53 personifies the suffering servant as the Bible does in many places.
Hosea 11:1 (New American Standard Bible)
When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.

Shalom Nick, there is nothing more embarrassing than to see and read the evidence of Replacement Theology in Hosea 11:1. The Prophet identifies God's Son by name, as Israel, when he was called from Egypt thtough the Exodus, and the guy who wrote the gospel named Matthew plagiarized the text and attributed it to Jesus when he was never in Egypt. Luke himself contradicts him. Only blind faith makes one believe in such a Hellenistic Bible.

[Elia]

Originally Posted by Nick Hallandale

I agree that Isaiah 53 refers to Israel. [Jacob]
Isaiah 53 personifies the suffering servant as the Bible does in many places.
Hosea 11:1 (New American Standard Bible)
When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.

Bs'd

Read here about whom Isaiah 53 speaks: http://mountzion.freewebpage.org/Isaiah53.html




Eliyahu light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53


There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!

The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.

The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.

Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His annointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben

I agree with you in part. I also beleive Jeremiah 18, where he says the kingdom is conditional. But he had to die to settle the sin issue. He was resurected as set for in Ezekiel 37, to restore Israel and have them no longer be divided.

What is your take on Psalm 22, in regards to the crucifixion as detailed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Especially the part where he cried out "My God My God, why have you forsaken me?" If you don't believe that happened, then there is nothing else for us to discuss. Do you think that happened? Do you think it happened and it is a hoax? Do you think it didn't happen, and you have no comment on Psalm 22? For Ben, or anybody that looks for their day of restoration.

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Nick M

I agree with you in part. I also beleive Jeremiah 18, where he says the kingdom is conditional. But he had to die to settle the sin issue. He was resurected as set for in Ezekiel 37, to restore Israel and have them no longer be divided.

What is your take on Psalm 22, in regards to the crucifixion as detailed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Especially the part where he cried out "My God My God, why have you forsaken me?" If you don't believe that happened, then there is nothing else for us to discuss. Do you think that happened? Do you think it happened and it is a hoax? Do you think it didn't happen, and you have no comment on Psalm 22? For Ben, or anybody that looks for their day of restoration.

First of all, Jesus did not have to be crucified to settle the sin issue. According to Jeremiah 31:30, every one shall die for his own iniquity. And second, there is just one way to set the sin issue. That's what Isaiah refers to as to set things right with God, so that our sins, from scarlet red will become as white as snow: To repent of our transgressions and return to obey God's Law. Read Isaiah 1:18,19.

Now, Jesus was not resurrected, as you claim, as set for in Ezekiel 37. Read it more carefully. Your pre-conceive Christian notions are playing trick with your eyes. The verse in Ezekiel 37 you are referring to is 12. That's not bodily resurrection but the return of the Jews from exile to the Land of Israel. Exile for us is as if we have been buried in the graves of the nations. At the end of the exile, God opens
up those graves and brings us back to the Land of Israel. It has nothing to do with bodily resurrection, which, BTW, is against the natural laws and against the Scriptures.

Regarding Psalm 22, it is a Christian gloss to cover up for a gross plagiarism made either by the Hellenistic gospel writers or by the Chruch in the 4th Century when pious forgery was blessed by the Church. The Psalm has nothing to do with Jesus' crucifixion. It describes the struggles of David running away from place to place. From king Saul and from the Gentiles enemies, without hope and supposing that even God Himself had abandoned him.

[Elia]

Originally Posted by Nick M

What is your take on Psalm 22, in regards to the crucifixion as detailed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Especially the part where he cried out "My God My God, why have you forsaken me?" If you don't believe that happened, then there is nothing else for us to discuss. Do you think that happened? Do you think it happened and it is a hoax? Do you think it didn't happen, and you have no comment on Psalm 22? For Ben, or anybody that looks for their day of restoration.

Bs'd

To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. Also Psalm 22 does not claim to prophesize about the messiah. It is nowhere written: The messiah will come and he will call out during his execution: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through. But, as shown before, the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore Christianity has to resort to Biblical texts that have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as messianic prophecies. Because of the fact that, according the NT, Jesus quoted Psalms during his execution, the Christians claim that this Psalm must be a prophecy about the messiah. An upside down proof based upon nothing. And even that is not enough. In order to make it a little more authentic Christianity squeezed in the infamous falsification about the “piercing of hand and feet”. See verse 16: “Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet.” They say: “Look! Here is the crucifixion, prophesized in the Psalms!”

Point one: It is not written here that that the hands and feet of the messiah would be pierced. Like I pointed out: King David speaks here about himself, and that in the past tense. And on top of that: there is no such a thing as “they pierced my hand an feet”. The Hebrew word that is here translated as 'pierced' is 'ka'arie'. There is no word that even comes close to ka'arie that means piercing. To call this a mistranslation is too euphemistic, we should call this just what it is; another Christian falsification of their Bible translations, in order to squeeze in JC. The word that comes the closest is 'karah', but it is impossible to fit that in here, because that would violate almost every rule in the Hebrew grammar. And besides that, karah does not mean piercing, but 'to dig up, to bring up from the ground' (in the sense of mining)

The Hebrew prefix 'ka' means: 'as the', and the Hebrew word 'arie' means 'lion'. So what it says here is: "Like the lion [they are at] my hands and feet." The text between the square brackets is my insertion. So King David, who is not prophesizing about the messiah here, is speaking about a lion, and not about piercing hands and feet. The same lion he speaks about in verse 13 and 21.

Also the modern day Bible translations translate this in the wrong way. I could find only one Christian Bible translation who translates this verse in the right way, and that is the translation of the Y-H-V-H witnesses. But at least the modern Bible translations have the decency to write that there is no such thing in the Hebrew text.

My edition of the Revised Standard Version has a footnote with the word pierced in verse 16, it says there: "Gk Syr Jerome: Heb like a lion" That means that the translators get the word “pierced” from the ancient Greek translation; the Septuaginth, and from the Syriac translation, and from the Vulgata, the Catholic translation of the Bible into Latin, made by Jerome, on the request of Pope Damascus, in 328 CE. But this: “Heb like a lion” means that they admit that in the Hebrew is written: Like a lion.

Here is the footnote of the New American Standard Bible Update (1995): "Another reading is like a lion, my..."

And here is the footnote of the New International Version: "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts: 'like the lion,"

What the Bible translators are doing here is ignoring the original Hebrew Bible, and translating translations instead, because that fits the Christian theology better.

But the exact same word "ka'arie" is used in Isaiah 38:13. This claim can be checked out by people who cannot read Hebrew, by means of the Christian Hebrew-English interlinear, that is a Hebrew text of the Tanach, (OT), with under each word an English translation. Provided by a Christian institution. Look here: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...brew_Index.htm and look there how it is translated there. It is possible to zoom into the text.
On the right side of the Hebrew text is a normal English translation. Now look at the discrepancy between how the Hebrew is translated right underneath, and how it is translated in the text on the right side. VERY educational!


And look here how the English translations translate the word "ka'arie" in Isaiah 38:11;

New International Version “I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;”

ew American Standard Bible: “I composed my soul until morning. Like a lion--so He breaks all my bones,”

The Message: “I cry for help until morning. Like a lion, God pummels and pounds me,”

Amplified Bible: “I thought and quieted myself until morning. Like a lion He breaks all my bones;”

New Living Translation: “I waited patiently all night, but I was torn apart as though by lions.”

King James Version: “I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones:”

English Standard Version: “I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”

Contemporary English Version: “Until morning came, I thought you would crush my bones just like a hungry lion;”

New King James Version: “ I have considered until morning-- Like a lion, So He breaks all my bones;”

New Century Version: "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"

21st Century King James Version: “I reckoned till morning that, as a lion, so will He break all my bones;”

American Standard Version: “I quieted myself until morning; as a lion, so he breaketh all my bones:”

Young's Literal Translation: “I have set [Him] till morning as a lion, So doth He break all my bones,”

Darby Translation: “I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones.”

Revised Standard version: “I cry for help until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”



Another place where we see the word "ka'arie" is in Numbers 24:9. See here how it is there translated:

New International Version “Like a lion they crouch and lie down"

New American Standard Bible: “He crouches, he lies down as a lion"

The Message: “Israel crouches like a lion and naps"

Amplified Bible: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

New Living Translation: “Like a lion, Israel crouches and lies down"

King James Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

English Standard Version: “He crouched, he lay down like a lion"

Contemporary English Version: “Like a lion you lie down"

New King James Version: “He bows down, he lies down as a lion"

New Century Version: “Like a lion, they lie waiting to attack"

21th Century King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"

American Standard Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

Young's Literal Translation: “He hath bent, he hath lain down as a lion"

Darby Translation: “He stooped, he lay down like a lion"

Revised Standard version: “He couched, he lay down like a lion"


So the translators know very well what "ka'arie" means. It is just that in Psalm 22 (almost) all the Christian Bible translators are collectively struck with blindness, and go astray.

But here we see what “ka’arie” means: “As the lion”, and, more important, we clearly see what is does NOT mean: "piercing".

So in Psalm 22 it does not speak about the final messiah, and not about a crucifixion, and the “piercing” in Psalm 22 is just another Christian falsification of their Bible translations.




Eliyahu light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2

[Pierac]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53

There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!

The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.

The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.

Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His annointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben

My poor confused Jewish boy... you speak as a child!

Messiah - Most of us are more familiar with the Greek translation of this word, which is "Christos" or "Christ" in English. People have made this title of Jesus into Jesus’ surname. But it is not his name, it is his title. Jesus Christ means Jesus the Christ (Messiah). When someone says that we are Christians, they are saying that we are Messianist, or followers of the Messiah. The definition of Messiah has been practically lost to non-jews. A proper understanding of this title is critical if we are ever going to fully understand who Jesus is.

Messiah - Hebrew word signifying "one who has been anointed." The anointed agent of Yahweh. The kings of Israel were anointed with oil in the name of God, which symbolized his investiture with the Spirit of God. The term Messiah was later used to designate a "future king," an expected royal leader from the line of David who would restore the kingdom to Israel. A king who would make all things new, consecrated as Yahweh’s vicegerent in Israel. This son of David, who was expected by the Jewish nation, was the Messiah par excellence, a term that has been rendered in Greek by Christos (NABD & The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 2, pg 344 (ZEB)) .

That the Messiah is supposed to be a king is a well-known fact by anyone who has studied the Bible in depth. Because it was customary to anoint kings, the phrase "The LORD’s anointed" became a synonym for "king" (ZEB, vol.1, pg. 171). This fact can be verified by many verses. Even on the cross the inscription read, "The king of the Jews" (Mark 15:26). I will cover a few verses and then list some more for your own study:

Mark 15:32: "Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross."

John 1:40 & 49: "We have found the Messiah…Rabbi, you are the Son of God; the king of Israel."

Luke 19:38: "Blessed is the king (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (YHWH).

Other verses: Jeremiah 23:5, Daniel 7:13, Psalms 2:6, Zechariah 9:9, Acts 17:7, 2 Timothy 4:1. There are many more. The Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg.200 says:

"If God’s purpose is not to be defeated, the true Messiah = King as God’s authentic Servant is the only answer. In Heb. Categories the remedy is centered upon a person and not upon an abstract doctrine or an ideal system. There can be no Messianic kingdom without God’s anointed King."

As we can see, the Messiah is an actual king of Israel, the ideal king of Israel. He is a man who is anointed by God’s spirit. The Messiah is able to perform mighty signs because God has anointed him with His Spirit, not because he is God. It is God working through Jesus. These three verses explain this point better than I ever could:

Acts 10:38: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Acts 2:22: "Jesus of Nazareth was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."

Matthew 12:18: "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him."

All the Old Testament Messianic prophecies speak of a man anointed by God’s Spirit. None of them mention that the Messiah is supposed to be God. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol.4 pg.201 states of the Messiah:

"But at all times he is the one who acts in the power and under the guidance of the God of Israel."

The Jews today (because they failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah) are still waiting for the Messiah to come. But if you ask a rabbi who the Messiah is supposed to be (as I did), he will tell you what all these sources have said, that he will be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. We must always remember that the Messiah is the ideal anointed king of Israel who will reign in God’s kingdom to come, the Messianic kingdom.

The confusion lies in that God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus.

Paul

[Nick Hallandale]

Originally Posted by Pierac

My poor confused Jewish boy... you speak as a child!

Messiah - Most of us are more familiar with the Greek translation of this word, which is "Christos" or "Christ" in English. People have made this title of Jesus into Jesus’ surname. But it is not his name, it is his title. Jesus Christ means Jesus the Christ (Messiah). When someone says that we are Christians, they are saying that we are Messianist, or followers of the Messiah. The definition of Messiah has been practically lost to non-jews. A proper understanding of this title is critical if we are ever going to fully understand who Jesus is.

Messiah - Hebrew word signifying "one who has been anointed." The anointed agent of Yahweh. The kings of Israel were anointed with oil in the name of God, which symbolized his investiture with the Spirit of God. The term Messiah was later used to designate a "future king," an expected royal leader from the line of David who would restore the kingdom to Israel. A king who would make all things new, consecrated as Yahweh’s vicegerent in Israel. This son of David, who was expected by the Jewish nation, was the Messiah par excellence, a term that has been rendered in Greek by Christos (NABD & The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 2, pg 344 (ZEB)) .

That the Messiah is supposed to be a king is a well-known fact by anyone who has studied the Bible in depth. Because it was customary to anoint kings, the phrase "The LORD’s anointed" became a synonym for "king" (ZEB, vol.1, pg. 171). This fact can be verified by many verses. Even on the cross the inscription read, "The king of the Jews" (Mark 15:26). I will cover a few verses and then list some more for your own study:

Mark 15:32: "Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross."

John 1:40 & 49: "We have found the Messiah…Rabbi, you are the Son of God; the king of Israel."

Luke 19:38: "Blessed is the king (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (YHWH).

Other verses: Jeremiah 23:5, Daniel 7:13, Psalms 2:6, Zechariah 9:9, Acts 17:7, 2 Timothy 4:1. There are many more. The Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg.200 says:

"If God’s purpose is not to be defeated, the true Messiah = King as God’s authentic Servant is the only answer. In Heb. Categories the remedy is centered upon a person and not upon an abstract doctrine or an ideal system. There can be no Messianic kingdom without God’s anointed King."

As we can see, the Messiah is an actual king of Israel, the ideal king of Israel. He is a man who is anointed by God’s spirit. The Messiah is able to perform mighty signs because God has anointed him with His Spirit, not because he is God. It is God working through Jesus. These three verses explain this point better than I ever could:

Acts 10:38: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Acts 2:22: "Jesus of Nazareth was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."

Matthew 12:18: "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him."

All the Old Testament Messianic prophecies speak of a man anointed by God’s Spirit. None of them mention that the Messiah is supposed to be God. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol.4 pg.201 states of the Messiah:

"But at all times he is the one who acts in the power and under the guidance of the God of Israel."

The Jews today (because they failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah) are still waiting for the Messiah to come. But if you ask a rabbi who the Messiah is supposed to be (as I did), he will tell you what all these sources have said, that he will be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. We must always remember that the Messiah is the ideal anointed king of Israel who will reign in God’s kingdom to come, the Messianic kingdom.

The confusion lies in that God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus.

Paul

If only Jesus had fulfilled the legitimate Messianic Scriptures of the Hebrew Scriptures he might be believable.

[Pierac]

Originally Posted by Nick Hallandale

If only Jesus had fulfilled the legitimate Messianic Scriptures of the Hebrew Scriptures he might be believable.

Really?

According to ancient literature, Jesus was not the only rabbi at his day to heal the sick and performed miracles. Onias, also known as "Honi, the circle drawer," was famous for warning the people to cover their goods before he prayed for rain. He would draw a circle around himself and refuse to leave until God answers prayer. Honi lived in the first century and has been described as being "experienced in miracles."

Another first century Rabbi, Hanina Ben Dose, is remembered for the many miracles he performed, especially for healing the sick. Early records indicate that it was not uncommon for miracles, such as healing. Even the casting out demons was not unusual. Jesus referred to this when he said to the Pharisees, "If I buy Beelzrbub cast out devils, whom do your children [students] cast them out?" (Matthew 12:27)

Arnold Fruchtenbaum , a Jewish Christian scholar in his book Messianic Miracles p.4. Points out that there were four major miracles that the rabbis could not perform, which Jesus used to demonstrate his Messiahship. According to Fruchtenbaum, Matthew 15:30 summarizes what he calls the general miracles at that time: healing the lame, the crippled, the blind, and the dumb. Even today, in Israel, both Jews and Arabs use the phrase "When Messiah comes, he will do that." In other words, the Messiah will do what no ordinary man can do. This was the attitude of the first century Jews had towards the 4 messianic miracles that no one else could perform.

When John disciples asked Jesus, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" Jesus replied by naming some miracles that were not being done in the first century (Matthew 11:3 -5). For example, the cleansing of lepers and the raising of the dead were not common in that day. From the time of the completion of the Mosaic Law, there are no records of any Jewish persons who had been cleansed of leprosy. Miriam, the sister of Moses, was healed before the completion of the Law. Naaman, who was also healed, was a Gentile. The Jews considered leprosy to be "the finger of God" or "the stroke," and anyone afflicted by it had to be cleansed, as well as healed.

This was such a significant issue that Leviticus 13 and 14 give detailed instructions as to what must be done when a healing did occur. First, the priest had to establish that the person had actually been a leper. Second, he had to establish that the person had really been healed. Third, he had to establish who had done the healing. Because note you have been healed of leprosy in such a long time, the Jews believed that an ordinary rabbi could not do such a miracle. Only Messiah, when he came, would be able to do it. This is borne out at Luke 4:27, where the Bible notes that there were many lepers in Israel as far back as Elisha, but none were healed except Naaman.

The action really began with Jesus healed the leper and told them to take the required offering to the priests, in fulfillment of the Levitical Law. The priest was then required by the law to verify these persons actually been lepers, that they had actually been healed, and then, to investigate how or by whom this healing had been done. The practice of the Sanhedrin was to send a delegation to investigate many serious Messianic candidates. This investigation involves two steps: the first was to simply observe. If there was convincing evidence, they proceeded to interrogate.

We can see this first step in Luke 5:17 and Mark 2:5-7, where the scribes and Pharisees who had come from Jerusalem simply sat and observe Jesus come reasoning in their hearts. It was after the healing of the lepers had been verified that the Sanhedrin began to take Jesus seriously. Then, when she began to do other uncommon miracles, they went to the second stage and began interrogating him.

The second messianic miracle Jesus did was the casting out of a demon of dumbness (see Matthew 12:22). Although Matthew 12:27 tells us that other rabbis were able to cast out demons, history tells us that they used a Pharisaic formula which required the exorcist to first ask the demon his name. They then use the demon's name to cast it out. Even Jesus use this technique in Mark 5:9. But using this methodology that the rabbi powerless against demons of dumbness since they could not give their name. It was this kind of demon that the disciples could not cast out in Mark 9:17-18. It was when Jesus began doing miracles that no one else could do that the people started asking, "Is not this the son of David [the Messiah]?" (Matthew 12:23).

The third Messianic miracle was the raising of the dead. Although there were examples of people dying and being brought back to life in the Old Testament, the case of Lazarus was an exception to the norm. John 11:39 tells us that Lazarus had been dead already for four days. The Pharisees believed that a deceased person’s spirit hovered over his body for three days, and during that time there remained the possibility of resuscitation. This may be why Jesus intentionally waited until the fourth day to do the miracle. The resurrection of Lazarus left the rulers of the Jews with no alternative but to admit that he was, in fact, the Messiah of Israel. He calls the callous hearts of many could not accept this, however, it was from that time forth that they looked for a way to have Jesus of Nazareth killed (John 11:53).

It was not the Pharisees so much who were threatened by Jesus’ demonstration of his Messiahship; it was the Sadducees who ran the Temple and profited from it. Their motive for wanting dead are revealed in John 11:48: "If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place [Temple] and our nation".

Perhaps you should pray that Ancient Prayer... From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, From the laziness that is content with half-truths, From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, Oh God of Truth, deliver us.


Paul

[Nick Hallandale]

Originally Posted by Pierac

Really?

According to ancient literature, Jesus was not the only rabbi at his day to heal the sick and performed miracles. Onias, also known as "Honi, the circle drawer," was famous for warning the people to cover their goods before he prayed for rain. He would draw a circle around himself and refuse to leave until God answers prayer. Honi lived in the first century and has been described as being "experienced in miracles."

Another first century Rabbi, Hanina Ben Dose, is remembered for the many miracles he performed, especially for healing the sick. Early records indicate that it was not uncommon for miracles, such as healing. Even the casting out demons was not unusual. Jesus referred to this when he said to the Pharisees, "If I buy Beelzrbub cast out devils, whom do your children [students] cast them out?" (Matthew 12:27)

Arnold Fruchtenbaum , a Jewish Christian scholar in his book Messianic Miracles p.4. Points out that there were four major miracles that the rabbis could not perform, which Jesus used to demonstrate his Messiahship. According to Fruchtenbaum, Matthew 15:30 summarizes what he calls the general miracles at that time: healing the lame, the crippled, the blind, and the dumb. Even today, in Israel, both Jews and Arabs use the phrase "When Messiah comes, he will do that." In other words, the Messiah will do what no ordinary man can do. This was the attitude of the first century Jews had towards the 4 messianic miracles that no one else could perform.

When John disciples asked Jesus, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" Jesus replied by naming some miracles that were not being done in the first century (Matthew 11:3 -5). For example, the cleansing of lepers and the raising of the dead were not common in that day. From the time of the completion of the Mosaic Law, there are no records of any Jewish persons who had been cleansed of leprosy. Miriam, the sister of Moses, was healed before the completion of the Law. Naaman, who was also healed, was a Gentile. The Jews considered leprosy to be "the finger of God" or "the stroke," and anyone afflicted by it had to be cleansed, as well as healed.

This was such a significant issue that Leviticus 13 and 14 give detailed instructions as to what must be done when a healing did occur. First, the priest had to establish that the person had actually been a leper. Second, he had to establish that the person had really been healed. Third, he had to establish who had done the healing. Because note you have been healed of leprosy in such a long time, the Jews believed that an ordinary rabbi could not do such a miracle. Only Messiah, when he came, would be able to do it. This is borne out at Luke 4:27, where the Bible notes that there were many lepers in Israel as far back as Elisha, but none were healed except Naaman.

The action really began with Jesus healed the leper and told them to take the required offering to the priests, in fulfillment of the Levitical Law. The priest was then required by the law to verify these persons actually been lepers, that they had actually been healed, and then, to investigate how or by whom this healing had been done. The practice of the Sanhedrin was to send a delegation to investigate many serious Messianic candidates. This investigation involves two steps: the first was to simply observe. If there was convincing evidence, they proceeded to interrogate.

We can see this first step in Luke 5:17 and Mark 2:5-7, where the scribes and Pharisees who had come from Jerusalem simply sat and observe Jesus come reasoning in their hearts. It was after the healing of the lepers had been verified that the Sanhedrin began to take Jesus seriously. Then, when she began to do other uncommon miracles, they went to the second stage and began interrogating him.

The second messianic miracle Jesus did was the casting out of a demon of dumbness (see Matthew 12:22). Although Matthew 12:27 tells us that other rabbis were able to cast out demons, history tells us that they used a Pharisaic formula which required the exorcist to first ask the demon his name. They then use the demon's name to cast it out. Even Jesus use this technique in Mark 5:9. But using this methodology that the rabbi powerless against demons of dumbness since they could not give their name. It was this kind of demon that the disciples could not cast out in Mark 9:17-18. It was when Jesus began doing miracles that no one else could do that the people started asking, "Is not this the son of David [the Messiah]?" (Matthew 12:23).

The third Messianic miracle was the raising of the dead. Although there were examples of people dying and being brought back to life in the Old Testament, the case of Lazarus was an exception to the norm. John 11:39 tells us that Lazarus had been dead already for four days. The Pharisees believed that a deceased person’s spirit hovered over his body for three days, and during that time there remained the possibility of resuscitation. This may be why Jesus intentionally waited until the fourth day to do the miracle. The resurrection of Lazarus left the rulers of the Jews with no alternative but to admit that he was, in fact, the Messiah of Israel. He calls the callous hearts of many could not accept this, however, it was from that time forth that they looked for a way to have Jesus of Nazareth killed (John 11:53).

It was not the Pharisees so much who were threatened by Jesus’ demonstration of his Messiahship; it was the Sadducees who ran the Temple and profited from it. Their motive for wanting dead are revealed in John 11:48: "If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place [Temple] and our nation".

Perhaps you should pray that Ancient Prayer... From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, From the laziness that is content with half-truths, From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, Oh God of Truth, deliver us.


Paul

IMO Jesus did not perfom any miracles.
I have proof from the Scriptures.
The miracles were added to the story by the telling and retelling of the Jesus story before the gospels were written.

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Pierac

My poor confused Jewish boy... you speak as a child!

Messiah - Most of us are more familiar with the Greek translation of this word, which is "Christos" or "Christ" in English. People have made this title of Jesus into Jesus’ surname. But it is not his name, it is his title. Jesus Christ means Jesus the Christ (Messiah). When someone says that we are Christians, they are saying that we are Messianist, or followers of the Messiah. The definition of Messiah has been practically lost to non-jews. A proper understanding of this title is critical if we are ever going to fully understand who Jesus is.

Messiah - Hebrew word signifying "one who has been anointed." The anointed agent of Yahweh. The kings of Israel were anointed with oil in the name of God, which symbolized his investiture with the Spirit of God. The term Messiah was later used to designate a "future king," an expected royal leader from the line of David who would restore the kingdom to Israel. A king who would make all things new, consecrated as Yahweh’s vicegerent in Israel. This son of David, who was expected by the Jewish nation, was the Messiah par excellence, a term that has been rendered in Greek by Christos (NABD & The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 2, pg 344 (ZEB)) .

That the Messiah is supposed to be a king is a well-known fact by anyone who has studied the Bible in depth. Because it was customary to anoint kings, the phrase "The LORD’s anointed" became a synonym for "king" (ZEB, vol.1, pg. 171). This fact can be verified by many verses. Even on the cross the inscription read, "The king of the Jews" (Mark 15:26). I will cover a few verses and then list some more for your own study:

Mark 15:32: "Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross."

John 1:40 & 49: "We have found the Messiah…Rabbi, you are the Son of God; the king of Israel."

Luke 19:38: "Blessed is the king (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (YHWH).

Other verses: Jeremiah 23:5, Daniel 7:13, Psalms 2:6, Zechariah 9:9, Acts 17:7, 2 Timothy 4:1. There are many more. The Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg.200 says:

"If God’s purpose is not to be defeated, the true Messiah = King as God’s authentic Servant is the only answer. In Heb. Categories the remedy is centered upon a person and not upon an abstract doctrine or an ideal system. There can be no Messianic kingdom without God’s anointed King."

As we can see, the Messiah is an actual king of Israel, the ideal king of Israel. He is a man who is anointed by God’s spirit. The Messiah is able to perform mighty signs because God has anointed him with His Spirit, not because he is God. It is God working through Jesus. These three verses explain this point better than I ever could:

Acts 10:38: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Acts 2:22: "Jesus of Nazareth was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."

Matthew 12:18: "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him."

All the Old Testament Messianic prophecies speak of a man anointed by God’s Spirit. None of them mention that the Messiah is supposed to be God. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol.4 pg.201 states of the Messiah:

"But at all times he is the one who acts in the power and under the guidance of the God of Israel."

The Jews today (because they failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah) are still waiting for the Messiah to come. But if you ask a rabbi who the Messiah is supposed to be (as I did), he will tell you what all these sources have said, that he will be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. We must always remember that the Messiah is the ideal anointed king of Israel who will reign in God’s kingdom to come, the Messianic kingdom.

The confusion lies in that God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus.

Paul

Sorry Pierac, but you are totally mistaken about the idea that we have been waiting for the Messiah. Read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew. It says in there that the Lord has gone forth for the salvation of His People; even for the salvation of His Anointed One
HaMoschiach. Interesting to note that the Hebrew text does mention
HaMoschiach as a reference to the People of Israel. I know that there are several kinds of anointed ones, but I am talking about the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 which the Prophet identifies him with Israel by name so that you don't have to assume that he could be an individual.

No sir, the slavish mentality of 430 years in the Egyptian captivity has indeed left a habit hard to die, but it is dying. Most of us no longer think of the Messiah on an individual basis. The Messiah is Collective in Israel the Jewish People, and Prophet Isaiah has cleared this issue for us. Besides, Jeremiah also has made it very clear that as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day and the moon and stars as lights by night, Israel will remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37) The Messiah is not supposed to die because it does not make sense to expect a Messiah in every generation. Our role is to reveal God's glory in the sight of the nations. Read Ezekiel 20:41.

Therefore, I think you are the one who have been dreaming about a Messiah who has been dead for about 2000 years already. And all because your faith does not allow you to think rationally.

[keypurr]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53


There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!

The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.

The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.

Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His annointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben

Is it possiable my friend that Israel is a "Spiritual" nation that God holds close to his heart? Could it be his true church that followes his every wish and commandment?

Something to ponder over.

Peace

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by keypurr

Is it possiable my friend that Israel is a "Spiritual" nation that God holds close to his heart? Could it be his true church that followes his every wish and commandment?

Something to ponder over.

Peace

There is a way to find out that Israel is indeed a "Spiritual" nation that God holds close to His heart. Visit us in Israel and you will be surprised
of so much spirituality and zeal for the Word of God. It couldn't be the Church which has persecuted God's People throughout the History
of Israel through pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisitions, and last but not least, the Holocaust of about six million Jews.

[Elia]

Originally Posted by keypurr

Is it possiable my friend that Israel is a "Spiritual" nation that God holds close to his heart? Could it be his true church that followes his every wish and commandment?

Something to ponder over.

Peace

Bs'd

"The Christian church which follows his every wish and commandment"??

The Christians threw Gods laws overboard and replaced it with paganism and idolatry.

Which Christian follows Gods laws? Not a single one.

They believe Gods laws have been abolished.


They follow now extra-Biblical paganism, like Christmass, Sunday, trinity, etc etc.



Something to ponder about.



Eliyahu light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2