Exclusively Christian TheologyThis forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
This thread is specifically for triune believers. No other need or should post here.
I'm personally boycotting these cultists threads against our view. I have found none of them are here to learn a thing and they certainly don't make a cogent or compelling presentation. Its a waste of bandwidth and time from my experience. This thread is for posting material to help us on our way.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
So the three that are one, they must also be immaterial.
The Father is immaterial. The manifestations of the Father are also immaterial; the Holy Spirit and the Word. These - Father, Spirit and Word - are the three that are one.
The Holy Spirit manifests as all life.
The Word manifested as the man Jesus, and as the written Scriptures.
So God is immaterial,
triune as the Father, and His two manifestations, the Holy Spirit and the Word,
and He manifests materially as all life, in the man Jesus, and in the written Scriptures.
God created the heavens and the earth Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:11 God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds." It was so.
We can see from these verses God has created the tree.
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell.
We know from Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens and earth. Naturally, the first thing we see in Colossians 1:16 is that all things were created through and for Christ.
We have one of two ways to go here: Either these scriptures disagree with one another, or they completely agree with one another. Some would purport a third option: that God created through Christ Jesus, but the problem with such a view is first, that it is not explicitly given from the text. It is a deduction rather than an idea explicitly given. If, as we read in 2 Timothy 3:16, that all scripture is given by God, we should readily discount the second. We then have the dilemma of these two passages completely agreeing with one another and that we have an equation. God and Christ are used interchangeably so as one is not distinguished from the other.
Doubt verses Denial
The RC has called the triune (Trinitarian) view mysterious. That is, there is an embrace of things not entirely explained which carries the idea that we believe first and if possible, answer what questions we may without going beyond the written scriptures such as the third option above does, with deductive reasoning. We do use deductive reasoning to fill in gaps in missing information, but when it comes to scripture, we admit our lack and loosely (tentatively) hold to a working theory/possibility. A mystery allows for doubt. That is, if a thing is not explained, we may wonder whether we are apprehending or able to apprehend information we are given. In our comparison we see God and Christ used interchangeably as creator. There is nothing from the text that would allow us to deny that God and Christ are equated in scripture. If the scripture does not support denial, denial is purposefully against the written word. If the author of Colossians had wanted to make a stark distinction to how the world was created, he didn’t do so. We cannot assume he neglected this. If he intended that we should see distinction, the text does not give any inclination. Knowing full the Genesis account, this one is written blurring the lines between Genesis 1 and Colossians 1:16. Not novel to the Colossians author, the Apostle John states in similar fashion:
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not a thing came into being that has come into being.
God with us Isa 7:14 So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel.
Mat 1:22 Now all this happened so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken of the LORD by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which means, God with us.
If Christ was not God, this prophecy was never fulfilled. Some reinterpret this scripture to mean, “God is for us” eradicating the wording and meaning of this promise.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Slogan/motto:
Luther only started the Reformation - We must finish it!
Reputation:
May 20th, 2011, 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon
God created the heavens and the earth Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:11 God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds." It was so.
We can see from these verses God has created the tree.
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell.
We know from Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens and earth. Naturally, the first thing we see in Colossians 1:16 is that all things were created through and for Christ.
We have one of two ways to go here: Either these scriptures disagree with one another, or they completely agree with one another. Some would purport a third option: that God created through Christ Jesus, but the problem with such a view is first, that it is not explicitly given from the text. It is a deduction rather than an idea explicitly given. If, as we read in 2 Timothy 3:16, that all scripture is given by God, we should readily discount the second. We then have the dilemma of these two passages completely agreeing with one another and that we have an equation. God and Christ are used interchangeably so as one is not distinguished from the other.
Doubt verses Denial
The RC has called the triune (Trinitarian) view mysterious. That is, there is an embrace of things not entirely explained which carries the idea that we believe first and if possible, answer what questions we may without going beyond the written scriptures such as the third option above does, with deductive reasoning. We do use deductive reasoning to fill in gaps in missing information, but when it comes to scripture, we admit our lack and loosely (tentatively) hold to a working theory/possibility. A mystery allows for doubt. That is, if a thing is not explained, we may wonder whether we are apprehending or able to apprehend information we are given. In our comparison we see God and Christ used interchangeably as creator. There is nothing from the text that would allow us to deny that God and Christ are equated in scripture. If the scripture does not support denial, denial is purposefully against the written word. If the author of Colossians had wanted to make a stark distinction to how the world was created, he didn’t do so. We cannot assume he neglected this. If he intended that we should see distinction, the text does not give any inclination. Knowing full the Genesis account, this one is written blurring the lines between Genesis 1 and Colossians 1:16. Not novel to the Colossians author, the Apostle John states in similar fashion:
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not a thing came into being that has come into being.
God with us Isa 7:14 So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel.
Mat 1:22 Now all this happened so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken of the LORD by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which means, God with us.
If Christ was not God, this prophecy was never fulfilled. Some reinterpret this scripture to mean, “God is for us” eradicating the wording and meaning of this promise.
Are you here to learn anything Lon? You have not covered all the possible interpretations for these scriptures.
Philippians 2:9-11: Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Isaiah 45:22-23: "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath."
Eucharist [thanksgiving] is the state of the perfect man. Eucharist is the life of paradise. Eucharist is the only full and real response of man to God's creation, redemption, and gift of heaven. - Alexander Schemann
Philippians 2:9-11: Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Isaiah 45:22-23: "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath."
At the name of Jesus they bow and confess that he is lord to God, the Father.
Are you here to learn anything Lon? You have not covered all the possible interpretations for these scriptures.
All possible interpretaions of scripture?!
is it not written that "NO scriptures is for mans own private interpretation"?
How then can the church have a myriad possible interpreations?
Yet so it does .For this reason. That while there are many men who subject the scriptures to thier own wisdom and reasonings.Then you will have in consquence many interpretations and postion on this or that of scripture.
Yet is there not only ONe God? Is he divided? What then knoweth the things of man save the spirit that is in man?LIkewise then what knoweth the things of God save the Spirit of God who knoweth not only "the deep things of God" but also "the mind of God" The scriptures therefor that were writetn by men but inspired by the same Spirit of God and truth is also needed to understand what is written. For if He waneded to so to write so too then is he needed and in the same measure to undestand what is written.
Moreover in Ephesians it is written that God has given to HIS church "Apostles prophets pastors teachers etc for what purpose? For the perfecting of the BRIDE OF Christ unto we (believers ) all come to aunity of THE faith......." Now if faith cometh by undestyanding of the Word of God" It is clear then that to have aunity of the faith there must of nescesity be a untiy of understanding. Not then accordign to this or that interpretation nor indeed accordign to this or that 'school' of theology, But by that understanding and knowldge fo the truth that can only come if any man is willing to follow and therefore be led by HIm "who leadeth us into all truth" and by such mans we come to or arive at a knowldge of the truth.
Now Jesus said "when the Spirit of truth shall come he WILL lead us into all truth" How is it then there are so many interpreations and confusion and nmo settled understanding as to what the truth is?
Has not the Spirit come? This we cannot say for he has come and has been "poured out upon all flesh." Is he no longer leading?
That maybe a clue .Not that he is not leading or seekign to but rather men are nort following where he leadeth.But is rather outside the church knocking at the door.
Concernign the trinity of God then.We shold tread sofly and carefully for we are treading on most Holy Ground seekignot eneter as it were the most Holy place.For are we not in this matetr talking ior seekignto coemto some understanding of the nature of the Godhead? How then can we come to Him for understyanding and think by mANS wisdom we can "know Him who is from the beginning." Moreover if we would seek then we msut come Gods way not ours. Thus not only cant the unregenerated man see with blind eyes thatw hich can only bee seen with spiritual eyes.But neither can the carnal christian recive those things that re spiritualy discerned for the carnal mind cannot recive the things of God.
So Eeven as a new BORN child of God has entered into the tabrbnacle and knows the father and has thier sins for given. There is still the holy place. To be BORNagain is to eneter by that curtain to the palce of sacrafice and the blood shed. Here though ther is the natural light of the sun and the moon as it were.The Holy PLACE has no natural light at all. mans wisdom and reasoning are of no avail. The light in the Holy place COEMS FORM THE 7 BRANCHED lamp and the bread.Signyfying the Spirit and the Word. Thus here aman as of old must put off the old man and put on Christ wash hands ands feet.For who can ascend the hill of the Lord save he who has a pure heart and clean hands. Once entered he must not walk by sight but by faith.Not as ablind man but as one whos eyes of the understandign havign been opened seeks more light.The promise is "that to him who has more shall be given" The aproach then to this subject is very critical. if you get that wrong what you seek will be barred from you,.
These things then are not for interpretation.! but rather a willingnes sto learn .A meakness then .Moreover it needs Grace AND Mercy. fOR WE CANNOT OF OURSELVES do any thing . Yet even a s promised we can be led to green pastures and still waters and come to a place of contentment ansd peace on the matter.Not understanding all .For who can!? But rather in a measure at least coem to know Him who is from the beginning.
The Trinity of God therefore cannot be denied by any truly biblicly BORNagain believer.For they were BOR N or "begotten again by the will of the FATHER"bY jESUS CHRIST the SON BY THE HOLY GHOST! How then can any true child of God deny HIm who begat Him even as it is niot possible for any father to deny his son.Thus the saem Spirit fo truth that bares witnes with our spirit that we are children of God so to does he alsao bare witness to the truth concernign this matter also.Wether we can articulate thew truth iof it in any measure is nethier here nor there,Yet we are to coem to some undrstanding I believe. if only to the foothills of it.
I fear that though the cchurch knows of thier sins forgiven and indeed the father. They know more His acts than His ways.
and while most sem to be little children.There seem to be less "young men inw hom the word of God dwelleth richly and they have overcome the wicked one" Yet are we not so called? to such a high calling?
Moreover that is not the end either. But rather young men are to mature till they become fathers "who know Him who is from the beginning"
A young child knows thier father. they know he loves them and provides for them. They know also that he goes in and comes out.Yet do not know why and for what purpose.or indeed his work.
Much of the church today si liek that its me me me me
and always praying for my needs and pronvison and blessing.There is in some parts the idea that God is mans servant and all men have tio do is pray and ask and God will supply thier every WANT.
True it is that god has and does supply our every need but for what purpose? If not to do HIS WILL?In the outer courtt as it were where ther natutal eye and reasoning prevail. The n so is that attitude remains. But even as the secons curtain is after tjhe same pattern as the first so then are we called to climb alittle higher . and enter into a closer walk with God.
In the Holy place we come to understsand that God is not ourservant but we are here to serve God .That what we seena dnhear outside we are to pray and intercede inside that God may comfort us that we may comfort others. not only this but that we may see things as He ses it and with that comfort and strenegth we recive comfort those without or in need.
here the alter of incence must be always lit. even as we should and must always to pray.
It may be asked what has this to do with the trinity of God. More than you may think.
While men seek to subject the scriptures to the wisdom and the foolishness of man the whole world is spiralling to destruction and the Lord is coming soon.and the bride must get herself ready.
Even in this and the last days there is much contention and even theological seminars teach not the truth it seems but only this ones interpretation and anothers and all of them .Why is that? Do they not know the truth themseklves?
if not they are then teachjing error to teachers and the like who in turn will teach the same interpretations to others.
I am not interested at all in interpretations. I want the TRUTH!
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
May 21st, 2011, 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon
God created the heavens and the earth Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:11 God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds." It was so.
We can see from these verses God has created the tree.
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell.
We know from Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens and earth. Naturally, the first thing we see in Colossians 1:16 is that all things were created through and for Christ.
We have one of two ways to go here: Either these scriptures disagree with one another, or they completely agree with one another. Some would purport a third option: that God created through Christ Jesus, but the problem with such a view is first, that it is not explicitly given from the text. It is a deduction rather than an idea explicitly given. If, as we read in 2 Timothy 3:16, that all scripture is given by God, we should readily discount the second. We then have the dilemma of these two passages completely agreeing with one another and that we have an equation. God and Christ are used interchangeably so as one is not distinguished from the other.
Doubt verses Denial
The RC has called the triune (Trinitarian) view mysterious. That is, there is an embrace of things not entirely explained which carries the idea that we believe first and if possible, answer what questions we may without going beyond the written scriptures such as the third option above does, with deductive reasoning. We do use deductive reasoning to fill in gaps in missing information, but when it comes to scripture, we admit our lack and loosely (tentatively) hold to a working theory/possibility. A mystery allows for doubt. That is, if a thing is not explained, we may wonder whether we are apprehending or able to apprehend information we are given. In our comparison we see God and Christ used interchangeably as creator. There is nothing from the text that would allow us to deny that God and Christ are equated in scripture. If the scripture does not support denial, denial is purposefully against the written word. If the author of Colossians had wanted to make a stark distinction to how the world was created, he didn’t do so. We cannot assume he neglected this. If he intended that we should see distinction, the text does not give any inclination. Knowing full the Genesis account, this one is written blurring the lines between Genesis 1 and Colossians 1:16. Not novel to the Colossians author, the Apostle John states in similar fashion:
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not a thing came into being that has come into being.
God with us Isa 7:14 So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel.
Mat 1:22 Now all this happened so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken of the LORD by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which means, God with us.
If Christ was not God, this prophecy was never fulfilled. Some reinterpret this scripture to mean, “God is for us” eradicating the wording and meaning of this promise.
Lon,
Why post arguments against other views if you only want to post three gods trinitarianism, and add to Gods word concerning the Father, His Son and the Fathers Holy Spirit.
If the scriptures are so clear, requiring no explanation in our present culture then only post them, but you know that many of the writings were given in another culture and way of thinking and so many over the centuries have disputed as to the correct translating of them.
Do you claim without any doubt that you understand that (trintarianism) which the authors of were a Godless bunch of murderers who did not understand.
LA.
Many get called to be saved, then take upon themselves the demons of the fallen church before they give their life to God in return.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Isn't it absurd, when asked not to post here, they do anyway. As if their own threads aren't enough this one needs hijacking?
They are guests on an evangelical forum. They are being disruptive and should be banned for a season. Their Arian views were condemned centuries ago as heretical.
The triune view is biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity. It is a glorious truth attacked by Satan through pseudo-Christian cults like Mormonism, JWs, Unitarians, Christadelphians, etc.
Oneness groups are also divisive and guilty, but at least they strongly promote the Deity of Christ, the salvific truth.
AMR is the man (my feewings are hurt that I am a lousy debater).
It can be shown from Scripture that there is only one true God by nature. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is personal/God. It can also be shown that the Father is not the person of the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.
The trinity is the only way to explain the biblical parameters of God's self-revelation.
If we agree on monotheism, then the personality of the Holy Spirit and the Deity of Christ should be established first (it is too big a jump for the whole trinity understanding for some people). We can also easily handle the classic Arian objections that JWs use (Col. 1:15 firstborn; Rev. 3:14 begining; Jn. 14:28 greater; Prov. 8 wisdom; I Cor. 15 subject; I Cor. 11 head; Jn. begotten, etc.).
Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)
They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")
Slogan/motto:
Luther only started the Reformation - We must finish it!
Reputation:
May 21st, 2011, 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by godrulz
They are guests on an evangelical forum. They are being disruptive and should be banned for a season. Their Arian views were condemned centuries ago as heretical.
The triune view is biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity. It is a glorious truth attacked by Satan through pseudo-Christian cults like Mormonism, JWs, Unitarians, Christadelphians, etc.
Oneness groups are also divisive and guilty, but at least they strongly promote the Deity of Christ, the salvific truth.
AMR is the man (my feewings are hurt that I am a lousy debater).
It can be shown from Scripture that there is only one true God by nature. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is personal/God. It can also be shown that the Father is not the person of the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.
The trinity is the only way to explain the biblical parameters of God's self-revelation.
If we agree on monotheism, then the personality of the Holy Spirit and the Deity of Christ should be established first (it is too big a jump for the whole trinity understanding for some people). We can also easily handle the classic Arian objections that JWs use (Col. 1:15 firstborn; Rev. 3:14 begining; Jn. 14:28 greater; Prov. 8 wisdom; I Cor. 15 subject; I Cor. 11 head; Jn. begotten, etc.).
So who's more divisive grulz, the one spouting his doctrines yet accepting others as their brothers in Christ or the one spouting his doctrines and calling those who disagree non-Christians?
Slogan/motto:
Joh 3:16...God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 17:3 ...this is life eternal, that they migh
Reputation:
May 22nd, 2011, 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by godrulz
They are guests on an evangelical forum. They are being disruptive and should be banned for a season. Their Arian views were condemned centuries ago as heretical.
Valid point, godrulz.
Kill them all and burn the Bibles and ancient scripts.
Commission Westcott and Hort to re-write the scripts your way.
Slogan/motto:
Joh 3:16...God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 17:3 ...this is life eternal, that they migh
Reputation:
May 22nd, 2011, 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon
Isn't it absurd, when asked not to post here, they do anyway. As if their own threads aren't enough this one needs hijacking?
We are quoting from the Trinitarian translations here which you seem to find abhorring.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Hybrid Mode
