[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Which came first, freewill or Calvinism?

[rainee]

Hi Untell,
Interesting question.

You know your "Old Testament"
Deuteronomy 6:5
5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Would God say that if He thought they had no free will?
What?

And after that
Luke 10:27
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

Would Jesus say that if there was no free will?
What?


And what about these sacrifices

Leviticus 22:23

23 Either a bull or a lamb that has any limb too long or too short you may offer as a freewill offering, but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Ezra 3:5 NIV

Today's New International Version (TNIV)

5 After that, they presented the regular burnt offerings, the New Moon sacrifices and the sacrifices for all the appointed sacred festivals of the LORD, as well as those brought as freewill offerings to the LORD.

Exodus 35:20-21 NIV
20 Then the whole Israelite community withdrew from Moses’ presence, 21 and everyone who was willing and whose heart moved them came and brought an offering to the LORD for the work on the tent of meeting, for all its service, and for the sacred garments.

What do these verses mean but that back then there was freewill?

What?


All I have ever asked is a for Christians to quit sinning and unbelievers to believe.

Unbelievers never admit they can't believe.
And Christians?

Well maybe you can find out for yourself here starting with you?

What say you?

If you say the spirit is willing by the flesh is weak then you will have to explain what brain your flesh is ruled by.

[Zeke]

=rainee;2932121]Hi Untell,
Interesting question.

You know your "Old Testament"
Deuteronomy 6:5
5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Would God say that if He thought they had no free will?
What?

It depends on Gods intent, and the wicked condistion of the human heart. God knew Israels failure before he ever called them, or told them to follow the precepts of the law which they broke before the stone cooled off.

And after that
Luke 10:27
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

Would Jesus say that if there was no free will?
What?

Same thing Jesus did with the beatitudes that were impossible for any son of adam to do, the very thoughts of a man could be counted against him.
Peter didn't even know who Jesus was until it was revealed to him by God, and though he boasted in his will he was ready to die for the Lord he ended up saying he never knew him, the fickle human heart is not to be trusted, nor the ego and pride that thinks the preaching of the cross if foolish, only God can open the mental prison of the carnel mind.

And what about these sacrifices

Leviticus 22:23

23 Either a bull or a lamb that has any limb too long or too short you may offer as a freewill offering, but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Ezra 3:5 NIV

Today's New International Version (TNIV)

5 After that, they presented the regular burnt offerings, the New Moon sacrifices and the sacrifices for all the appointed sacred festivals of the LORD, as well as those brought as freewill offerings to the LORD.

Exodus 35:20-21 NIV
20 Then the whole Israelite community withdrew from Moses’ presence, 21 and everyone who was willing and whose heart moved them came and brought an offering to the LORD for the work on the tent of meeting, for all its service, and for the sacred garments.

What do these verses mean but that back then there was freewill?

What?


All I have ever asked is a for Christians to quit sinning and unbelievers to believe.

Unbelievers never admit they can't believe.
And Christians?

Well maybe you can find out for yourself here starting with you?

What say you?

If you say the spirit is willing by the flesh is weak then you will have to explain what brain your flesh is ruled by.

Any willingness on their part would be the same type that Peter boasted of, God knew it would fail without His Spirit to help them stand against their own flesh, only those of another spirit like Josuha had could please God a type of the remnants prerservation by Gods Spirit.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by rainee

Hi Untell,
Interesting question.

You know your "Old Testament"
Deuteronomy 6:5
5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Would God say that if He thought they had no free will?
What?

And after that
Luke 10:27
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

Would Jesus say that if there was no free will?
What?


And what about these sacrifices

Leviticus 22:23

23 Either a bull or a lamb that has any limb too long or too short you may offer as a freewill offering, but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Ezra 3:5 NIV

Today's New International Version (TNIV)

5 After that, they presented the regular burnt offerings, the New Moon sacrifices and the sacrifices for all the appointed sacred festivals of the LORD, as well as those brought as freewill offerings to the LORD.

Exodus 35:20-21 NIV
20 Then the whole Israelite community withdrew from Moses’ presence, 21 and everyone who was willing and whose heart moved them came and brought an offering to the LORD for the work on the tent of meeting, for all its service, and for the sacred garments.

What do these verses mean but that back then there was freewill?

What?


All I have ever asked is a for Christians to quit sinning and unbelievers to believe.

Unbelievers never admit they can't believe.
And Christians?

Well maybe you can find out for yourself here starting with you?

What say you?

If you say the spirit is willing by the flesh is weak then you will have to explain what brain your flesh is ruled by.

Some of the offerings, it appears to me, were not voluntary.

I do have faith, or equivalently though slightly different because it is a different word, I believe.

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by rainee

Deuteronomy 6:5...
Would God say that if He thought they had no free will?

Yes. That is the reason he said it, because their wills were bound to a covenant (Deut 6:25) and outside that covenant their wills were bound to satan.

The law is made for murderers who don't have free will, not for righteous people who do God's will (1Timothy 1:9).

Originally Posted by rainee

Luke 10:27...
Would Jesus say that if there was no free will?
What?

Supra ... and ...

Prove you have "free will" by selling everything you own and giving the money to the poor.

What?

Originally Posted by rainee

And what about these sacrifices ... Leviticus 22:23 ... Ezra 3:5 NIV ... Exodus 35:20-21 NIV
What do these verses mean but that back then there was freewill?

There is "freewill" the adjective meaning "voluntary" and "free will" the noun meaning the "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention." It is the former definition that is relevant to the verses you've cited and the latter definition that is relevant to a discussion regarding "free will." While choices can appear voluntary they are determined by belief, and the dilemma of determinism suggests "free will" is logically impossible.

[rainee]

Originally Posted by elohiym

Yes. That is the reason he said it, because their wills were bound to a covenant (Deut 6:25) and outside that covenant their wills were bound to satan.

The law is made for murderers who don't have free will, not for righteous people who do God's will (1Timothy 1:9).



Supra ... and ...

Prove you have "free will" by selling everything you own and giving the money to the poor.

What?



There is "freewill" the adjective meaning "voluntary" and "free will" the noun meaning the "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention." It is the former definition that is relevant to the verses you've cited and the latter definition that is relevant to a discussion regarding "free will." While choices can appear voluntary they are determined by belief, and the dilemma of determinism suggests "free will" is logically impossible.

lol

thank you, Elo

[sky.]

What came first is God's Sovereignty but the plan of salvation was conceived before the foundation of the earth.

Part of what I have learned is that if God did not exercise His Sovereignty in His plan then no one would be saved. Does that mean we have no responsibility or part in it? I don't think so because God's sovereignty is also part of common grace. Common grace is the order and the ability for people to lead decent and helpful lives apart from being saved. Effectual grace also known as special grace is directed by God's Sovereign plan and leads people in a way that does not go counter to their free will. Effectual grace does not exclude free will.

From what I have learned everyones name is written in the Book of life before the foundation of the earth. That is good news.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by sky.

What came first is God's Sovereignty but the plan of salvation was conceived before the foundation of the earth.

Part of what I have learned is that if God did not exercise His Sovereignty in His plan then no one would be saved. Does that mean we have no responsibility or part in it? I don't think so because God's sovereignty is also part of common grace. Common grace is the order and the ability for people to lead decent and helpful lives apart from being saved. Effectual grace also known as special grace is directed by God's Sovereign plan and leads people in a way that does not go counter to their free will. Effectual grace does not exclude free will.

From what I have learned everyones name is written in the Book of life before the foundation of the earth. That is good news.

Maybe this is obvious, as a part of the discussion, but I should say, "when did Calvin live?" and to follow that, "Was freewill discussed before John Calvin was born?

[sky.]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Maybe this is obvious, as a part of the discussion, but I should say, "when did Calvin live?" and to follow that, "Was freewill discussed before John Calvin was born?

Sorry, I thought I was ahead of the class... I should just read this one.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by sky.

Sorry, I thought I was ahead of the class... I should just read this one.

To me it is okay if there are multiple questions (or comments) of posters under a thread title and OP. We don't have to all go in the same direction at the same time.

[csuguy]

Historically speaking, Freewill was upheld by the earliest of Church Fathers in opposition to the fate of paganism. It was a universally held belief. Calvin came along in the 16th century.

[Clete]

Originally Posted by csuguy

Historically speaking, Freewill was upheld by the earliest of Church Fathers in opposition to the fate of paganism. It was a universally held belief. Calvin came along in the 16th century.

A brief history of "Calvinism"....

Calvin got it from Luther who got it from Augustine who got it from Ambrose (his priest) who got it from the Classics (i.e. Aristotle and Plato).

[rainee]

Originally Posted by Clete

A brief history of "Calvinism"....

Calvin got it from Luther who got it from Augustine who got it from Ambrose (his priest) who got it from the Classics (i.e. Aristotle and Plato).

A brief statement of faith for many I have read here who are hyperly and overly against Calvinism:

A) God does not let us die or our loved ones die (thank goodness because who would like Him if He did??)

B) God let's us have free will because we are not slaves or robots,
this is why we as sinners never admit we are sinners but rather focus
on the free flowing blood of Christ. It is very good.

C)And since we never have to explain why we are not perfect in our flesh we can play with our friends of the world and buddy up to them.
They are neat.

[Clete]

Originally Posted by rainee

A brief statement of faith for many I have read here who are hyperly and overly against Calvinism:

A) God does not let us die or our loved ones die (thank goodness because who would like Him if He did??)

Who the heck believes this?

B) God let's us have free will because we are not slaves or robots,
this is why we as sinners never admit we are sinners but rather focus
on the free flowing blood of Christ. It is very good.

Did you forget to take your medication this morning or what?

God doesn't "let" us have free will. We have it because God could not have created us otherwise. That's right, you read it right, God COULD NOT have created us otherwise. At least not and done so is His own image, anyway.

Relationship is not possible outside of volition. We were created by God so that He could love us and we could love Him in return. Such a relationship is completely impossible without both parties having the ability to choose.

C)And since we never have to explain why we are not perfect in our flesh we can play with our friends of the world and buddy up to them.
They are neat.

This makes no sense whatsoever. I mean I can tell its some sort of anti-Pauline, maybe pro-Church of Christ or Seventh Day Adventist nonsense or some other legalistic manure, but it has nothing to do with anything I believe or teach.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. That was a demonstration of how a substantive response is presented. Please try to emulate it. Otherwise, you'll just prove yourself to be as big a waste of time as every other Calvinist on this site.

[rainee]

You listen to me Clete,

Wake up and smell the roses.

I accused you of glossing over your sins and in answer you glossed over my accusation.

You are younger than me and you may not be in the Bible as much as I have been.
As far CofC - I have impressed them, but Seventh Day Adventists? I worked for them for three years. They liked me, saying I was sincere.
Only one (no thanks to me) said wait, stop all, we need to focus more on Jesus. So it was my turn to be impressed then.

You can't talk about sin or why you do it or why you can't stop.

And you call me anti Pauline?
I bet I've tried to be like a mouse in his pocket more than you have - what do you want to bet?

Originally Posted by Clete

God doesn't "let" us have free will. We have it because God could not have created us otherwise. That's right, you read it right, God COULD NOT have created us otherwise. At least not and done so is His own image, anyway.

Relationship is not possible outside of volition. We were created by God so that He could love us and we could love Him in return. Such a relationship is completely impossible without both parties have the ability to choose it.


This makes no sense whatsoever. I mean I can tell its some sort of anti-Pauline, maybe pro-Church of Christ or Seventh Day Adventist nonsense or some other legalistic manure, but it has nothing to do with anything I believe or teach.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. That was a demonstration of how a substantive response is presented. Please try to emulate it. Otherwise, you'll just prove yourself to be as big a waste of time as every other Calvinist on this site.

ps as far as me wasting my time here, even fools can teach a wise person but nobody can teach fools.