ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
“How do you define ‘real’? If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.”
~Morpheus The Matrix
This has always been a common notion in physics- what is ‘real’ is a matter of perspective. Anything that can be measured is real, and that is precisely what drove the ether theory and Einstein’s relativity because space itself can be measured. It cannot, however, be seen or touched. When you look into space, you see stars and their light. When a radio detects, it detects signals, not space.
But at the same time, space is real. So let’s let’s relay the question that ol’ Morpheus asked again: How do you define real?
The point of this thread is to add some reason in contrast to the fanaticism I’ve been seeing. Within a lot of debates, especially along the lines of the Godhead and free will vs predestination, metaphysics takes a backseat. This bothers me because if one cannot support such theologies by it, then one really isn’t prescribing any real argument, just an illusion of one.
I tend to assume that everyone knows what I mean when I say this, so sometimes my rebuttals do not avail them as they should. So let this thread shed a little light on my brand of logic:
First, I’m just going to lay out the fundamental ideology in which my beliefs cascade down from.
Omnipotence. A being with no beginning is a being which is infinite, not only in age but also in their physicality. They exist infinitely forwards and backwards. This, by extension, makes them not subject to time, and they exist at all stages of time simultaneously. This is omniscience.
Now lets take it further- a being who exists in such a way, who is omnipotent, could never change their mind because if they knew beforehand their choice they would have already made it. This is irrefutable proof that everything such a being creates is PREDESTINED.
Now let’s take it even further- if everything is predestined, then everything is God’s will. And if everything is God’s will, then what is ‘real’?
Exactly.
Trinitarians speak a lot about Jesus existing before he was born, but nowhere in the Bible is it said that we never pre-existed. This is because existence is simply a matter of God’s will, and will does not need a body to be real.
So when the Word became flesh, it was God’s will becoming flesh. When reality became reality, it was God’s will taking shape.
But because Trinitarians are exceedingly stubborn, they try to give some idea that this is a false interpretation- and yet, it fits the entirety of the Bible from start to end. The Trinity is what causes problems, giving birth to an exhaustive ‘Christology’ that can be thrown away by the simple acknowledgment of the detail in this post.
Since I have given detail on predestination and the Godhead in relevance to metaphysics, let me give some Scripture to show what I mean:
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
*note what I said about an omnipotent being never being able to change their mind*
1 Corinthians 15:23-28
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
This passage is showing the complete sovereignty of God. *note what I said about God being infinite and omnipotent*. Infinite cannot be broken up. If you divide infinite by infinite, it is still infinite. It is the same if you multiply, add, or subtract.
Since our purpose is God’s will *note what I said about predestination*, the Trinity is a limitation. All is in God at the completion of His will.
I will save the rest for further discussion, I am simply eager to see what certain others have to say about it because there has been a lot of fanatical bias and not enough reason floating around. That does not suffice as theology.
Omnipotence. A being with no beginning is a being which is infinite......
A being cannot be infinite since it is definable as a being alongside other such beings or other potential beings. Being itself is infinite. That which may be conceptualised as the ground of all being is infinite. A being is defined by other finite beings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sum1sGruj
...not only in age but also in their physicality...
"Physicality" is defined by a range of vibrations, (the upper limit of which is around 10^19Hz). How can physicality as such be infinite?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sum1sGruj
They exist infinitely forwards and backwards.
There is no "forwards" or "backwards" in infinity - such terms require a frame of reference and therefore only have meaning in the context of finite perception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sum1sGruj
This, by extension, makes them not subject to time, and they exist at all stages of time simultaneously.
Time is essentially nothing but a concept arising from limited perception. All there ever is in reality is the now. Thoughts about the "future" are now. All memories are "now". Time in physics is an analytical convenience, nothing more. Yet you speak of "infinite in age"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sum1sGruj
Now lets take it further- a being who exists in such a way, who is omnipotent, could never change their mind because if they knew beforehand their choice they would have already made it. This is irrefutable proof that everything such a being creates is PREDESTINED.
...but since omniscient being is not subject to time, none of this makes any sense.
A being cannot be infinite since it is definable as a being alongside other such beings or other potential beings. Being itself is infinite. That which may be conceptualised as the ground of all being is infinite. A being is defined by other finite beings.
Not if only one thing exists, which is the gist of half of what I said.
Quote:
"Physicality" is defined by a range of vibrations, (the upper limit of which is around 10^19Hz). How can physicality as such be infinite?
Physicality is defined by what can be perceived. When I say 'infinite in physicality' it is meant to say that God exists in a way that we cannot perceive because He exists on a higher plateau of reality not subject to time. This implies infinite even in physicality.
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There is no "forwards" or "backwards" in infinity - such terms require a frame of reference and therefore only have meaning in the context of finite perception.
I'm simply trying to make it as understandable as possible. 'Beginning' implies a starting point, and so telling it that way helps to get mechanically declined minds working.
Quote:
Time is essentially nothing but a concept arising from limited perception. All there ever is in reality is the now. Thoughts about the "future" are now. All memories are "now". Time in physics is an analytical convenience, nothing more. Yet you speak of "infinite in age"?
Time is movement.
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...but since omniscient being is not subject to time, none of this makes any sense.
It makes perfect sense, because if He is not subject to time, then He is at every stage of time simultaneously. This is a direct result of being infinite as well, because if there is no starting point, then there is no traveling in time neither- they are seamlessly in the past, present, and future all at once.
So what this is really about is you disagree with the idea of the trinity, a Calvinist view of free will, predestination... As well, you'd rather argue using metaphysics as your standard bearer over Scripture, I will guess because to you it rings more believable because even you can't explain exactly what you are getting at.
I would suggest you read Job 38 real carefully, paying close attention to God's rebuke about fashioning an understanding of Him and His handiwork using human reasoning.
I don't find it difficult to admit - God cannot be fully understood, at least not to me.
One has to be seriously Pinheaded & newsless to Espouse & affirm OT Nonsensical tommyrot!
I can't believe I wasted my time reading the first third of that idiotic post.
Translation: I can't believe I thought that my fanatical mind could actually take on sound reason because my logic is still based on the medieval interpretation.
I don't see how God can be both in and out side of time. He can be antecedent to time and transcendent to time, or outside time (deism) or inside time (pantheism). The bible says man is not God, so if you are using the bible as foundational proof of both a personal and non-personal God, it makes no sense. The bible paints a picture of an unnameable but immutable transcendent God. As for God being omniscient, just answer the question "Are you God"?
Contributing to the fall of ideas, one post at a time
So what this is really about is you disagree with the idea of the trinity, a Calvinist view of free will, predestination... As well, you'd rather argue using metaphysics as your standard bearer over Scripture, I will guess because to you it rings more believable because even you can't explain exactly what you are getting at.
I would suggest you read Job 38 real carefully, paying close attention to God's rebuke about fashioning an understanding of Him and His handiwork using human reasoning.
I don't find it difficult to admit - God cannot be fully understood, at least not to me.
Job 38 is a key passage to understanding this view of God. The fact that you cannot put two and two together says a lot about why many Christians hate reason- they think it always works against Scripture because they are zealous about an impossible notion of God. It's not Scripture that is being pummeled, just your interpretation of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quincy
I don't see how God can be both in and out side of time. He can be antecedent to time and transcendent to time, or outside time (deism) or inside time (pantheism). The bible says man is not God, so if you are using the bible as foundational proof of both a personal and non-personal God, it makes no sense. The bible paints a picture of an unnameable but immutable transcendent God. As for God being omniscient, just answer the question "Are you God"?
God is already in the future, serving Revelations, we just haven't gotten there yet.
This is because we are subject to time. The fact of the matter is that in this way, everything God does, all that He wills, is simply composed in an instant. It just seems like it moves with the ages because of how we perceive it.
The OP is the metaphysical conclusion to an omnipotent being, which echoes through the whole Bible. Every property of God cascades down from that simple word.
What's more, and which will also likely drive some on here mad, especially Arminians, is that if God is not omnipotent- how then can He be God?
To answer your question straight on: "Are you God?"
No, I am a gear in God's will. The OP is not meant to reflect pantheism, just the complete preeminence of God.
Last edited by Sum1sGruj; March 22nd, 2012 at 01:52 PM.
Reason: typo
No, I am a gear in God's will. The OP is not meant to reflect pantheism, just the complete preeminence of God.
Ah, I thought you were making a statement on pantheism there. To me, if God is omniscient then he knows our thoughts. The only way he could is if he is all as opposed to source/transcendent. I didn't think the bible painted that picture. It seems to me that there is some deterministic value to nature, through God's providence/support but I still think we are free agents in the now. Of course the creator knows all possibilities but I don't believe the future exist on any level.
Contributing to the fall of ideas, one post at a time
Ah, I thought you were making a statement on pantheism there. To me, if God is omniscient then he knows our thoughts. The only way he could is if he is all as opposed to source/transcendent. I didn't think the bible painted that picture. It seems to me that there is some deterministic value to nature, through God's providence/support but I still think we are free agents in the now. Of course the creator knows all possibilities but I don't believe the future exist on any level.
There is a certain dualism that is compatible with the complete preeminence of God. In fact, it ties in with the OP, though I never touched based on it. Merely making on object that isn't Him in totality makes this dualism. This is what separates the Abrahamic God from a pantheistic god, because God is not literally His own creations. It's all in the basic symmetry of things both physically and intellectually. Many things cannot exist without the other, and are only determinable by the other.
Length is only length if their is height. Without height, length can be either or. In which case, length, width, and depth are the same exact things. That is the physical part.
Good and evil, for example, are manifestations of the same thing. They are both governed by the same fundamental gambits.
If God wipes out the Earth, this is justice. If Hitler wipes out Earth, it is evil. Good and evil are not projected by actions, but the reason thereof. Therefore, good and evil are dual. Scripture tells this quite well. God does not look at actions, He looks at the heart.
In a sense, free will and predestination are a duality, only predestination is the key working. We choose but our choices are predestined, you see. The thread is meant to tackle two things at once with one fundamental ideology. One is the properties of God and determining what is real in contrast to our perception, and the other is the execution of how it all happens.
In a sense, free will and predestination are a duality, only predestination is the key working. We choose but our choices are predestined, you see. The thread is meant to tackle two things at once with one fundamental ideology. One is the properties of God and determining what is real in contrast to our perception, and the other is the execution of how it all happens.
I can see the potential possibilities being predestined to a degree. I'm not at odds with God's general providence at all. Omniscience in the true sense of God knowing thoughts and feelings, future choices I disagree with though. How do you explain Hosea 8:4 if God is omniscient? What about Satan, if all is predestined, how do you explain Job chapter 2? Why would God need Job tested if the outcome was predestined?
Contributing to the fall of ideas, one post at a time
I don't see how God can be both in and out side of time. He can be antecedent to time and transcendent to time, or outside time (deism) or inside time (pantheism).
There is no time to be in or out of... time is just an analytical interpretation of perception. Time is an idea and nothing more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quincy
The bible says man is not God, so if you are using the bible as foundational proof of both a personal and non-personal God, it makes no sense.
To be fair though, the Bible says, "God is not a man, that he should change his mind". That is - change his mind the many ways a man would.
This does not exclude man from divinity - although it does exclude the sense of identity, i.e. "I am a man - a finite being with limited awareness and that is ALL I am". It is the sense of human identity that excludes itself.
Personality does not have to be limited to humans or humanoids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quincy
The bible paints a picture of an unnameable but immutable transcendent God. As for God being omniscient, just answer the question "Are you God"?
Yes, I am! But that is our essential nature, which is another story of course.
To be fair though, the Bible says, "God is not a man, that he should change his mind". That is - change his mind the many ways a man would. This does not exclude man from divinity - although it does exclude the sense of identity, i.e. "I am a man - a finite being with limited awareness and that is ALL I am". It is the sense of human identity that excludes itself.
Personality does not have to be limited to humans or humanoids.
Yes, I am! But that is our essential nature, which is another story of course.
That's a very interesting ideology. Tagging the 'bold' together, I am wondering: Do you lean towards dualist pantheism?
That's a very interesting ideology. Tagging the 'bold' together, I am wondering: Do you lean towards dualist pantheism?
Whilst I do believe that absolutely nothing can exist independently of God, I do not subscribe to any form of pantheism per se. Pantheism recognises God in manifestation at the expense of God's infinite transcendence of all form. I see all individuality, (including "inorganic" individuality), as the in-division of the One God. I AM with you and I AM you is the natural state of grace... The indivisible One in-divides and there is a multiplicity of individuals. The indivisible One transcends all form however and is still One regardless.
Hybrid Mode
