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The deity of Christ Jesus -
March 28th, 2012, 04:50 PM
This work may be used and borrowed from according to its parts, at the discretion of the reader and for the assistance of the reader arguing the same case elsewhere wherever that may be. However it may not be reproduced as its entire and complete unabridged form (in its current totality) outside the thread without the express permission of the author.
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PHILOSOPHICAL AND SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS GOD.
With regard to the 1st commandment and rightful glory
If Christ were not God, then to worship Him would be to break the first commandment.
The sense of the first commandment is not simply that God must be worshipped more than others, but that God alone must be worshipped.
Therefore given that the Holy Spirit draws us to worship Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is necessarily God.
___
At Acts 12 we read that King Herod, upon being glorified by the people as one who spoke as God, was immediately struck dead by the Lord because “he gave not God the glory” .
Contrasting, Thomas the disciple declared to Jesus’ face: “my Lord and my God” , and although Jesus did not seek to repeal any of Thomas’ declaration, He (Jesus) was not struck dead.
We understand by this that Jesus Christ is God.
___
Isaiah reveals of God:
“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another” Is 42:8.
Given then that God has given His glory to Jesus Christ, we understand from this that Jesus Christ is God.
With regard to the 3rd commandment
There are not two ways to blaspheme, but only one: it is to take God's name in vain.
Therefore because we know intuitively that to take the name of Jesus Christ in vain is to blaspheme, Jesus Christ is necessarily God.
With regard to the constancy of God
Jesus told us to pray that God lead us away from temptation.
If then Christ were not God, God would be contradicting Himself in His having exulted Christ to the degree that He has, for He would then be tempting us to worship idols.
Therefore because we know that God would never tempt us to worship one other than Himself, Jesus Christ is necessarily God.
NB: However see our thread: “How Christ transgressed the law, but without sin”.
With regard to common perception
It is commonly held in all cultures that a son is ultimately equal with his father (attested to by the fact that one’s son carries one’s surname into future generations).
More particularly, a son becomes equal to his father by demonstrating his unequivocal submission to his father’s will. In this sense no human son has ever really become equal to his father, although the ideal is still there nonetheless as, we might say, the ‘theoretical template’.
There is, however, one Son who has demonstrated perfect submission to his Father, thus demonstrating that He is equal with his Father.
Given then that that Father is God, the Son of whom we speak is necessarily also God.
It is, after all, simply a matter of “like Father, like Son”.
With regard to the perception of the Jews
Subsumed within the section immediately above, is the perception of the Jews at the time of Jesus.
Specifically, when Jesus said He was God’s Son, He knew this would be taken with ramification that He was equal to God, which is in fact how it was taken.
Given then that He added no qualification to the effect that He did not believe a son to be equal to his father, we understand His declaration that He was God’s Son to be tacit declaration that He was God.
With regard to the legal status of the Jews
To be born a Jew, particularly in biblical times when Jews were indeed Jews, was ostensibly an advantage, for it was they to whom the oracles of God were committed (see Rom 3:2).
Therefore, if any of us had been so born, it would have been our ‘God-given right’, moreover our obligation, to agree with the lawyers in the camp of Israel.
Thus Jesus commanded His disciples to observe all that they who sat in the seat of Moses observed: what the lawyers in the camp of Israel decided, was spiritual law, absolutely and without question.
Therefore we would have been obligatorily in agreement with the Jews in Jesus’ time that His saying He was God’s Son was equivalent to saying He was God, and thus according to law would have been justified in committing Him to death.
With regard to substance
Just as Adam (man) can only beget Adam (man), so too God can only beget God.
To suggest that God begets something inferior to God, is to suggest that God is inferior to Himself.
According to the specific philosophical axiom which states that two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.
1. Is God more righteous than Jesus? No.
2. Is God more holy than Jesus? No.
3. Is God more wise than Jesus? No.
4. Is God more desirable than Jesus? No.
Therefore Jesus is God.
___
Jesus said: “there is none good but God” .
Given then that we know that Jesus is good, Jesus Christ is necessarily God.
With regard to God-specific functionality
At Col 1:14-18 Jesus is declared to have created everything in existence. It is also declared that it is by Him that all things consist.
One wonders what God was doing while this was going on.
One also wonders why God didn’t want anything Jesus made, made for God, for it is also said in that passage that everything that Jesus made, He made for Himself.
Given then that God never misses out on anything, we conclude that Jesus Christ is God.
With regard to rank
At Revelation 7:17 we are told that Jesus Christ permeates (is in the “midst of” ) the throne of God.
Given that a throne is identified by who it is that sits on it, we understand by this that Jesus Christ is God.
With regard to power
The bible declares Jesus Christ to be the power of God (1 Cor 1:24).
Given then that God minus His power is not God, then God minus Jesus is not God.
Therefore Jesus = God.
Therefore Jesus is God.
With regard to eternal state
In His prayer at Gethsemane, Jesus relates that His glory was coextensive with the Father’s glory, before the world began (John 17:5).
Therefore Jesus Christ is God.
___
Jesus declared: “before Abraham was, I am” (“I who exist now, existed before Abraham existed, as the same ‘I’ who exists now”).
Therefore Jesus Christ is God.
___
At Col 2:9 we read that in Christ currently dwells “all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” .
Given then that Christ is no more in corporeal form, this “bodily” rather indicates the full and exhaustive representation and encapsulation of God from every conceivable metaphorical, spiritual, and abstract angle.
Given that it is axiomatic to both Christianity and the general phenomenon that is ‘person’, as well as that which is forced by the law of non-contradiction, that only the actual person of God can fully represent and encapsulate God, we understand from Col 2:9 that Jesus Christ is necessarily God.
___
At Rev 22:13 Jesus Christ tells us that He is “the Alpha and the Omega” .
Given then that there can be, by definition, only one person who is “the Alpha” and “the Omega”, and that that person must be God, we understand from this that Jesus Christ is God.
Amen.
Last edited by Colossians; November 18th, 2012 at 04:42 AM.
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"One Day AT A Time" Taken from that Old Gospel Classic.
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March 30th, 2012, 01:58 AM
Quote:
At Revelation 7:17 we are told that Jesus Christ permeates (is in
the “midst of” ) the throne of God.
Given that a throne is identified by who it is that sits on it, we understand by this that Jesus Christ is God.
Christ the Son will hand over the Kingdom to God the Father. Then Christ will become subject to God the Father.
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
It looks like it will be two thrones or a shared throne.
"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:" (Revelation 22:3).
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
March 30th, 2012, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians
This work may be used and borrowed from according to its parts, at the discretion of the reader and for the assistance of the reader arguing the same case elsewhere wherever that may be. However it may not be reproduced as its entire and complete unabridged form (in its current totality) outside the thread without the express permission of the author.
________________________
PHILOSOPHICAL AND SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS GOD.
With regard to the 1st commandment and rightful glory
If Christ were not God, then to worship Him would be to break the first commandment.
The sense of the first commandment is not simply that God must be worshipped more than others, but that God alone must be worshipped.
Therefore given that the Holy Spirit draws us to worship Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is necessarily God.
___
At Acts 12 we read that King Herod, upon being glorified by the people as one who spoke as God, was immediately struck dead by the Lord because “he gave not God the glory” .
Contrasting, Thomas the disciple declared to Jesus’ face: “my Lord and my God” , and although Jesus did not seek to repeal any of Thomas’ declaration, He was not struck dead.
We understand by this that Jesus Christ is God.
___
Isaiah reveals of God:
“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another” Is 42:8.
Given then that God has given His glory to Jesus Christ, we understand from this that Jesus Christ is God.
With regard to the 3rd commandment
There are not two ways to blaspheme, but only one: it is to take God's name in vain.
Therefore because we know intuitively that to take the name of Jesus Christ in vain is to blaspheme, Jesus Christ is necessarily God.
With regard to the constancy of God
Jesus told us to pray that God lead us away from temptation.
If then Christ were not God, God would be contradicting Himself in His having exulted Christ to the degree that He has, for He would then be tempting us to worship idols.
Therefore because we know that God would never tempt us to worship one other than Himself, Jesus Christ is necessarily God.
NB: However see our thread: “How Christ transgressed the law, but without sin”.
With regard to common perception
It is commonly held in all cultures that a son is ultimately equal with his father (attested to by the fact that one’s son carries one’s surname into future generations).
More particularly, a son becomes equal to his father by demonstrating his unequivocal submission to his father’s will. In this sense no human son has ever really become equal to his father, although the ideal is still there nonetheless as, we might say, the ‘theoretical template’.
There is, however, one Son who has demonstrated perfect submission to his Father, thus demonstrating that He is equal with his Father.
Given then that that Father is God, the Son of whom we speak is necessarily also God.
It is, after all, simply a matter of “like Father, like Son”.
With regard to the perception of the Jews
Subsumed within the section immediately above, is the perception of the Jews at the time of Jesus.
Specifically, when Jesus said He was God’s Son, He knew this would be taken with ramification that He was equal to God, which is in fact how it was taken.
Given then that He added no qualification to the effect that He did not believe a son to be equal to his father, we understand His declaration that He was God’s Son to be tacit declaration that He was God.
With regard to the legal status of the Jews
To be born a Jew, particularly in biblical times when Jews were indeed Jews, was ostensibly an advantage, for it was they to whom the oracles of God were committed (see Rom 3:2).
Therefore, if any of us had been so born, it would have been our ‘God-given right’, moreover our obligation, to agree with the lawyers in the camp of Israel.
Thus Jesus commanded His disciples to observe all that they who sat in the seat of Moses observed: what the lawyers in the camp of Israel decided, was spiritual law, absolutely and without question.
Therefore we would have been obligatorily in agreement with the Jews in Jesus’ time that His saying He was God’s Son was equivalent to saying He was God, and thus according to law would have been justified in committing Him to death.
With regard to substance
Just as Adam (man) can only beget Adam (man), so too God can only beget God.
To suggest that God begets something inferior to God, is to suggest that God is inferior to Himself.
According to the specific philosophical axiom which states that two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.
1. Is God more righteous than Jesus? No.
2. Is God more holy than Jesus? No.
3. Is God more wise than Jesus? No.
4. Is God more desirable than Jesus? No.
Therefore Jesus is God.
___
Jesus said: “there is none good but God” .
Given then that we know that Jesus is good, Jesus Christ is necessarily God.
With regard to God-specific functionality
At Col 1:14-18 Jesus is declared to have created everything in existence. It is also declared that it is by Him that all things consist.
One wonders what God was doing while this was going on.
One also wonders why God didn’t want anything Jesus made, made for God, for it is also said in that passage that everything that Jesus made, He made for Himself.
Given then that God never misses out on anything, we conclude that Jesus Christ is God.
With regard to rank
At Revelation 7:17 we are told that Jesus Christ permeates (is in the “midst of” ) the throne of God.
Given that a throne is identified by who it is that sits on it, we understand by this that Jesus Christ is God.
With regard to power
The bible declares Jesus Christ to be the power of God (1 Cor 1:24).
Given then that God minus His power is not God, then God minus Jesus is not God.
Therefore Jesus = God.
Therefore Jesus is God.
With regard to eternal state
In His prayer at Gethsemane, Jesus relates that His glory was coextensive with the Father’s glory, before the world began (John 17:5).
Therefore Jesus Christ is God.
___
Jesus declared: “before Abraham was, I am” (“I who exist now, existed before Abraham existed as the same ‘I’ who exists now”).
Therefore Jesus Christ is God.
___
At Col 2:9 we read that in Christ currently dwells “all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” .
Given then that Christ is no more in corporeal form, this “bodily” rather indicates the full and exhaustive representation and encapsulation of God from every conceivable metaphorical, spiritual, and abstract angle.
Given that it is axiomatic to both Christianity and the general phenomenon that is ‘person’, as well as that which is forced by the law of non-contradiction, that only the actual person of God can fully represent and encapsulate God, we understand from Col 2:9 that Jesus Christ is necessarily God.
___
At Rev 22:13 Jesus Christ tells us that He is “the Alpha and the Omega” .
Given then that there can be, by definition, only one person who is “the Alpha” and “the Omega”, and that that person must be God, we understand from this that Jesus Christ is God.
Amen.
Well, one thing I can say for your post is that it is very entertaining.
oatmeal
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
It looks like it will be two thrones or a shared throne.
1. The throne is not a literal chair, but a figure.
2. There is one throne.
3. The Lamb and the Father are on the one throne, for ever.
It looks like it will be two thrones or a shared throne.
1. The throne is not a literal chair, but a figure.
2. There is one throne.
3. The Lamb and the Father are on the one throne, for ever.
Indeed....for they are ONE.
A comma throws some people off in this verse, so I post it in Young's.... Titus 2:13 (Young's Literal Translation)
13waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 45:15
Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
I have grave doubts of the effacacy of 'philosophical truths'
Why mix scripture with philosophy.?
Are not the scriptures perfectly adequate and quite capaable to stand on thier own two feet?
Moreover is it not written that by mans wisdom and therefore philosophy he knew not God.
What then of the vain philosophies of the greeks upon which the western mind and thinking is so permeated with and is the most taught not only in our universities but in mnay cases in our theological seminars as well!
If man knew not God by his own wisdom but rather ONLY by the scriptures and the Holy Ghost(you need both) then what good is philosphy?
Indeed will not it draw men away unto another path of reasoning other than the path by which he who shall elad us into all truth will lead/ "By a way which we knew not!"
At Rev 22:13 Jesus Christ tells us that He is “the Alpha and the Omega” .
Given then that there can be, by definition, only one person who is “the Alpha” and “the Omega”, and that that person must be God, we understand from this that Jesus Christ is God.
Dear Colossians,
Even more compelling for me is the exact same words spoken by the LORD in Isaiah 44:6 compared with those spoken by the risen Lord Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:17 and 22:13.
Even more compelling for me is the exact same words spoken by the LORD in Isaiah 44:6 compared with those spoken by the risen Lord Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:17 and 22:13.
In Him,
-Jed
Amen! Also, In Isaiah 44:6 the LORD said that He Himself would be Israel's "Redeemer." The word "redeemer" is "goel" which means "kinsman-redeemer." So the one who called Himself the First and the Last is Israel's blood relative. Only Christ qualifies to be Israel's blood relative-redeemer. The Lord goes on to say that He is the Rock and He knows of no other Rock besides Himself (Isaiah 44:8). Paul must have known something the LORD didn't because he said that the Rock is Christ.
Even more compelling for me is the exact same words spoken by the LORD in Isaiah 44:6 compared with those spoken by the risen Lord Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:17 and 22:13.
In Him,
-Jed
Yahweh makes the 'First & the last' statement, in the first-person singular, regarding Himself, three times....likewise, Jesus makes the same declaration three times, in the first-person singular, regarding himself.
I have grave doubts of the effacacy of 'philosophical truths'
Why mix scripture with philosophy.?
Are not the scriptures perfectly adequate and quite capaable to stand on thier own two feet?
Moreover is it not written that by mans wisdom and therefore philosophy he knew not God.
What then of the vain philosophies of the greeks upon which the western mind and thinking is so permeated with and is the most taught not only in our universities but in mnay cases in our theological seminars as well!
If man knew not God by his own wisdom but rather ONLY by the scriptures and the Holy Ghost(you need both) then what good is philosphy?
Indeed will not it draw men away unto another path of reasoning other than the path by which he who shall elad us into all truth will lead/ "By a way which we knew not!"
What you don't realise, is that your statements here are philosophy.
Philosophy actually is the base of all reasoning, and logic is its tool. You will find Paul's writings full of logic statements ("If A, how much more B?").
If we say something like: "There can only be one God, for if there were more, then God wouldn't be God", such is a philosophical statement.
All discourse (and even language itself, which is the tool discourse employs) is philosophically based, for it is based on perception of axioms. (Axioms are self-evident statements which cannot be proven because they are pitted at the absolute level of 'what is obvious': they are the philosophical equivalents of the natural laws (eg the energy laws), which also can't be proven.)
It has been said that there are only 2 kinds of music: good and bad. So good classical, bad classical, good rock, bad rock, good country, bad country, etc. Equally, there are 2 kinds of philosophy: good and bad. The bad is what the scripture refers to as "vain", and which is based on the "elementary principles of the word". The good is that which points to Christ.
The word "philosophy" means "love of knowledge and wisdom". Now we read in scripture that "in Him are hidden all the treasures of knowledge and wisdom", so a Christian who loves true philosophy is saying that He loves Jesus Christ.
So theology (correct theology) is the philosophy which comes from God: it is philosophy which promotes the knowledge of God.
So when we see that God is the Word, and that by speaking He created, we see a philosophical accord.
Or when we see that Christ did the creating, and the word "word" derives from the Latin "verbum" which speaks to "verb" which speaks to "doing", we see a philosophical accord which supports our theology and which can then become part of our theology.
The law of non-contradiction, a philosophical axiom, which states that something is never what it is not, is probably the most common philosophy we intuitively use all the time. That along with the axiom which states that "two things equal to each other are equal to the same thing", which I have used in the OP.
If it were not for these axioms, you wouldn't have "on" and "off" and so you wouldn't have the PC you are writing on.
So we will not be like Amish people and throw out that which might glorify God, but will, along with Hannah the mother of Sammuel, cry: "Thou art a God of knowledge".
And then we will apply the Godly philosophy related by God in the beginning where He told us that Adam "knew" Eve: we will understand that it is not what you or God knows that counts, but who one knows. And so we understand via the Godly philosophy of "knowing" just what Hannah was speaking about.
So philosophy, the love of knowledge and wisdom, is beautiful and profitable if it is constrained at all points by one's love for Jesus Christ, "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge".
So true philosophy (that which is steered by God) will show up the vanity of the philosophy that emanates from the secular mind. It will not always disagree with the philosophy that emanates from the secular mind, but will always make sure that it is corrected at every point which is not consistent (does not promote) the philosophy which comes from God.
I was chatting with a woman in a cafe recently about philsophy (she was a fan of a certain philosopher), and knowing I was a Christian, she asked me why God would "need" a son if He was God. Her question of course emanated from a secular mind and therefore from the vain (elementary) philosophy which declared 2 things:
1. God must be a solo act
2. God by definition doesn't need anything
I answered that His son is the expression of Himself. That is, I countered her simplistic wordly philosophy with the philosophy which states that anyone is only known to be who he is, if he expresses himself. So I showed that God doesn't need a son in the way that she thought having a son implied, but that God's having a son was the irresistible product of His being a person.
So Godly philosophy correcting secular (vain, elementary) philosophy.
Needless to say, she being resistant to the Spirit at the time (this became obvious) didn't accept the point in full. Although there was some partial acceptance of the expression/image idea as being valid in itself.
Which then points us to the philosophy which tells us that unless God opens one's eyes, moreover crucifies one's self, one will never come to agree with the things of God.
Which is partner to Paul's statement: "the natural man comprehends not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he discern them, for they are spiritually discerned".
Which is all part and parcel of the philosophical law of non-contradiction: only God will act in accord with God, otherwise someone else were just as much qualified to be God.
Last edited by Colossians; November 18th, 2012 at 04:47 AM.
What you don't realise, is that your statements here are philosophy.
Philosophy actually is the base of all reasoning, and logic is its tool. You will find Paul's writings full of logic statements ("If A, how much more B?").
If we say something like: "There can only be one God, for if there were more, then God wouldn't be God", such is a philosophical statement.
All language is philosophically based. for it is based on perception of axioms.
My thoughts exactly. Thanks for saving me the time.
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