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Titus 2:13-14, Jesus is God and Savior - April 15th, 2012, 07:14 PM

TO ALL,

Titus 2:13-14 is one of the clearest passages in scripture that teaches that Christ is God and Savior.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

1. The verse EXPLICITLY says that Jesus Christ is our God and Savior.

2. It is EXPLICITLY stated that Jesus died to redeem us for Himself as His own special people. If Jesus is not God shouldn't He make us God's people instead of a people for "His own?"

Okay anti-trins start doing your dance.




Last edited by Wile E. Coyote; April 15th, 2012 at 08:51 PM.. Reason: Remove image
   
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April 15th, 2012, 08:49 PM

Attention anti-trins:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote View Post
TO ALL,

Titus 2:13-14 is one of the clearest passages in scripture that teaches that Christ is God and Savior.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

1. The verse EXPLICITLY says that Jesus Christ is our God and Savior.

2. It is EXPLICITLY stated that Jesus died to redeem us for Himself as His own special people. If Jesus is not God shouldn't He make us God's people instead of a people for "His own?"



   
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April 15th, 2012, 09:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote View Post
TO ALL,

Titus 2:13-14 is one of the clearest passages in scripture that teaches that Christ is God and Savior.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

1. The verse EXPLICITLY says that Jesus Christ is our God and Savior.

2. It is EXPLICITLY stated that Jesus died to redeem us for Himself as His own special people. If Jesus is not God shouldn't He make us God's people instead of a people for "His own?"

Okay anti-trins start doing your dance.
Note the word "and" could be two. God one person Jesus the other.
This is the correct way to see it.

Jesus has a God so he is not God. He is the son of God. God sent him.





Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ
   
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April 15th, 2012, 09:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
Note the word "and" could be two. God one person Jesus the other.
This is the correct way to see it.

Jesus has a God so he is not God. He is the son of God. God sent him.
1. The word "and" does NOT mean two. It means that Jesus Christ is our God AND Savior. The same grammatical construction is used when Paul said, "our God AND Father." The "and" does not indicate two.

2. It says that we are HIS (Christ's) possession. Jesus Christ owns us. Therefore, He is God.

3. I have demonstrated many times that the term "Son of God" in Jewish thought meant equality with God. To the Jews Christ's claim to be the Son of God was the same as profaning God's name (John 19:7; Leviticus 24:16).

You are blatantly denying what the text most EXPLICITLY says.



   
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April 15th, 2012, 09:31 PM

Kai almost never means even in Paul's usage. That rendering by Pierac isn't even really that close. The way Wilie posted it is a closer rendering of the Greek text.





Eucharist [thanksgiving] is the state of the perfect man. Eucharist is the life of paradise. Eucharist is the only full and real response of man to God's creation, redemption, and gift of heaven. - Alexander Schemann

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April 15th, 2012, 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Jack View Post
Kai almost never means even in Paul's usage. That rendering by Pierac isn't even really that close. The way Wilie posted it is a closer rendering of the Greek text.
I must refer the reader to the Essay on the Greek Article, by H. S. Boyd, Esq., appended to the notes on the Epistle to the Ephesians, where both the structure and doctrine of this passage are explained at large.

Wow, you missed the joke entirely! I didn't render anything!

Paul





From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

~ Ancient Prayer
   
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April 16th, 2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Jack View Post
Kai almost never means even in Paul's usage. That rendering by Pierac isn't even really that close. The way Wilie posted it is a closer rendering of the Greek text.
The Greek "kai" can mean "that is."

cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, THAT IS, human souls. Revelation 18:13 ESV

The word translated "that is" is the Greek conjunction "kai." It is identifying the slaves as human souls.

Besides, it EXPLICITLY says "And the APPEARING of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

It is Jesus Christ who is to be manifested and not the Father. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God.



   
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April 16th, 2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote View Post
The Greek "kai" can mean "that is."
καί: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G2532&t=KJV



   
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April 17th, 2012, 06:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote View Post
The Greek "kai" can mean "that is."

cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, THAT IS, human souls. Revelation 18:13 ESV

The word translated "that is" is the Greek conjunction "kai." It is identifying the slaves as human souls.

Besides, it EXPLICITLY says "And the APPEARING of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

It is Jesus Christ who is to be manifested and not the Father. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God.
Human slaves need to be identified as human souls?

Why? are there humans slaves without humans souls?

Are there any alive humans without souls?

Get a grip.

oatmeal





"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5

I John 3:1-2. Prov 14:34 Psalm 133:1
   
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April 15th, 2012, 09:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
Note the word "and" could be two. God one person Jesus the other.
This is the correct way to see it.

Jesus has a God so he is not God. He is the son of God. God sent him.
Colossians 2:9; 2 Peter 1:1.



   
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April 15th, 2012, 09:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
Note the word "and" could be two. God one person Jesus the other.
This is the correct way to see it.

Jesus has a God so he is not God. He is the son of God. God sent him.
They only see what they want to see! Christ is not Jesus' last name... So when they read Jesus Christ in scripture... It simply means anointed one of God! Like .... Jesus "anointed one of God " (Christ).

So let us but it in a more childish way that they can understand...

Titus 2:13 Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great Apple and Orange the anointed one of Apple,

Yep, Apples and (kai) Oranges!
Paul





From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

~ Ancient Prayer
   
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April 15th, 2012, 10:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
Note the word "and" could be two. God one person Jesus the other.
This is the correct way to see it.

Jesus has a God so he is not God. He is the son of God. God sent him.
"And" is the word "kai" . It is a conjunction with the meaning of "and " or "also" or "even"

Usually context will determine the better rendering.

Kai is a connective. It is usually used in lists of similar ideas, or objects. But also to connect ideas that are not similar

Similar does not mean identical.

Titus 2:15 being one example.

"These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Speak kai exhort kai rebuke

Similar concepts connected by kai, but they mean different things.

Speak does not equal exhort does not equal rebuke does not equal speak.

They are three totally different Greek words with three distinct meanings.

It is a list of three different actions that Paul is communicating to Titus to do.

Most certainly God and His son are similar, just like Adam and Cain were similar or Adam and Seth were similar. But they were very dissimilar and distinct as well.

Even Cain and Seth were similar in some ways but very dissimilar in other ways

Titus 3:13 is another verse that kai is used. and = kai

"Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them."

For anyone to suggest that Zenas and Apollos were identical people is sheer foolishness and ignorance and deceptive.

I am no Greek scholar, but even a novice such as I can read kai distinguish between two dissimilar ideas or people or things.

I John 5:18

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Those born again of God keeps themselves, kai that wicked one toucheth him not.

Two different concepts, two different entities with two different actions

The self imposed blindness of trins is a disgrace to God and His son and to the scriptures.

As an added bonus, "son" in scripture implies a beginning. With another being the precedent to the son. Thus Jesus Christ, the son of God had a beginning Matthew 1:18 birth = gennesis

oatmeal





"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5

I John 3:1-2. Prov 14:34 Psalm 133:1
   
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April 15th, 2012, 11:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
I am no Greek scholar, but even a novice such as I can read kai distinguish between two dissimilar ideas or people or things.



oatmeal

For once you actually said something which I can agree with.

All uni's are Greek ignorant.



   
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April 16th, 2012, 05:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
"And" is the word "kai" . It is a conjunction with the meaning of "and " or "also" or "even"

Usually context will determine the better rendering.

Kai is a connective. It is usually used in lists of similar ideas, or objects. But also to connect ideas that are not similar

Similar does not mean identical.

Titus 2:15 being one example.

"These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Speak kai exhort kai rebuke

Similar concepts connected by kai, but they mean different things.

Speak does not equal exhort does not equal rebuke does not equal speak.

They are three totally different Greek words with three distinct meanings.

It is a list of three different actions that Paul is communicating to Titus to do.

Most certainly God and His son are similar, just like Adam and Cain were similar or Adam and Seth were similar. But they were very dissimilar and distinct as well.

Even Cain and Seth were similar in some ways but very dissimilar in other ways

Titus 3:13 is another verse that kai is used. and = kai

"Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them."

For anyone to suggest that Zenas and Apollos were identical people is sheer foolishness and ignorance and deceptive.

I am no Greek scholar, but even a novice such as I can read kai distinguish between two dissimilar ideas or people or things.

I John 5:18

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Those born again of God keeps themselves, kai that wicked one toucheth him not.

Two different concepts, two different entities with two different actions

The self imposed blindness of trins is a disgrace to God and His son and to the scriptures.

As an added bonus, "son" in scripture implies a beginning. With another being the precedent to the son. Thus Jesus Christ, the son of God had a beginning Matthew 1:18 birth = gennesis

oatmeal
II Timothy 4:1

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

Look, another verse where kai is used to list dissimilar, even opposite concepts, ie, quick and dead.

Obviously, the trin Greek scholars have much to learn, even from little ole me!

oatmeal





"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5

I John 3:1-2. Prov 14:34 Psalm 133:1
   
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April 15th, 2012, 11:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
Note the word "and" could be two. God one person Jesus the other.
This is the correct way to see it.

Jesus has a God so he is not God. He is the son of God. God sent him.

No, pops.

We have already been over the Greek construction of this verse numerous times with you.

This verse conforms to the TSKS Greek grammar construct, and is one of the most proven in all of Greek - mandating that Theos and Jesus have the very same referent!

Hence, they are each other!!!

Theos is Jesus.

Jesus is Theos.


This is fact.

Again, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about....like all the other uni's...



   
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