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The Root Error of Calvinism -
May 28th, 2012, 02:12 PM
Today one of the chief spokesmen for the Reformed view is Dr. R.C. Sproul and his following statement correctly marks the major difference between Calvinism and other belief systems:
"When someone mentions the term 'Calvinism,' the customary response is, 'Oh, you mean the doctrine of predestination?' This identification of Calvinism with predestination is as strange as it is real and widespread...In summary we may define 'predestination' broadly as follows: From all eternity God decided to save some members of the human race and to let the rest of the human race perish. God made a choice--he chose some individuals to be saved unto everlasting blessedness in heaven, and he chose others to pass over, allowing them to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 141).
Sproul's words "from all eternity" are of course derived from the Apostle Paul's words "before the foundation of the world" in the following verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
There can be no doubt that the phrase "before the foundation of the world" is speaking about the "eternal state." Here Sproul makes a distinction between God's existence in the eternal state and that of man's exisence as being bound by time and space:
"One of the chief axioms taught by John Calvin was expressed by the Reformer in the Latin phrase 'Finitum non capax,' 'The Finite cannot grasp (or contain) the infinite.' Because God is infinite in his being and eternal, and we are finite and bound by both space and time, our knowledge of him is never comprehensive. We enjoy an apprehensive knowledge of God, but not a comprehenseive knowledge" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? 32).
God, being both infinite and eternal, is not bound by either space or time, as we are. This principle has long been understood within Calvinist circles. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said:
"Thereis properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).
According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." Therefore it could be said that God chose us for salvation before the foundation of the world and it could also be said that God did not choose us for salvation until we believed:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
John Wesley understood that when the Scriptures speak of God doing things in "time" then the "time element" in that verse cannot be taken literally:
"Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, On Predestination, Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).
Since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense. However, Calvinism is built on the foundation of a literal reading of the "time element" found in the following verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
It is absolutely essential to distinguish between the "divine, eternal perspective" and the the "mortal, time-bound perspective." It is a grave mistake to take the things in regard to the "eternal" state and apply them directly to the state which is bound by both space and time as if there is no difference.
The Calvinists build their whole theology on a literal reading of verses that should not be taken literally.
If Eph 1:4 is not to be taken literally, then how is it to be taken?
God exists outside of time then any instance where we see God doing things in "time" we can only understand that verse as being figurative and the figure of speech is:
"Anthropopatheia": "Ascribing to God what belongs to human and rational beings, irrational creatures, or inanimate things" (The Companion Bible, Appendix #6: Figures of Speech).
Therefore, in verses like Ephesians 1:4 the "time element" cannot be taken literally.
In "time" no one is chosen for salvation until he believes:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
Again, since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense.
God exists outside of time then any instance where we see God doing things in "time" we can only understand that verse as being figurative and the figure of speech is:
"Anthropopatheia": "Ascribing to God what belongs to human and rational beings, irrational creatures, or inanimate things" (The Companion Bible, Appendix #6: Figures of Speech).
Therefore, in verses like Ephesians 1:4 the "time element" cannot be taken literally.
In "time" no one is chosen for salvation until he believes:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
Again, since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense.
Perhaps my question was unclear? I know that you have said what you think it does not mean but I want to know what you think it does mean? And I wasn't asking about "verses like Ephesians 1:4 ", I was asking about Eph 1:4.
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Perhaps my question was unclear? I know that you have said what you think it does not mean but I want to know what you think it does mean? And I wasn't asking about "verses like Ephesians 1:4 ", I was asking about Eph 1:4.
I think that Ephesians 1:4 means that we were chosen by God. However, I do not take the "time element" literally. Let us look at the verse in more detail:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
John Calvin correctly understood that the term "in Him" is referring to the Body of Christ:
" 'In Christ.' This is the second proof that the election is free; for if we are chosen in Christ, it is not of ourselves. It is not from a perception of anything that we deserve, but because our heavenly Father has introduced us, through the privilege of adoption, into the body of Christ. In short, the name of Christ excludes all merit, and everything which men have of their own; for when he says that we are chosen in Christ, it follows that in ourselves we are unworthy" (John Calvin, Commentary at Ephesians 1:4).
How can anyone be chosen "into the Body of Christ" before the foundation of the world since the Body of Christ did not even exist then? Obviously Paul was using figurative language.
You just have to deal with Ephesians 1:4 like you would any verse which contains figurative language. First realize that it is being spoken of in a figurative sense and do not try to build your theology on that figurative language.
How can anyone be chosen "into the Body of Christ" before the foundation of the world since the Body of Christ did not even exist then? Obviously Paul was using figurative language.
Only if you are open theist or process theologian. No for everybody else!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
You just have to deal with Ephesians 1:4 like you would any verse which contains figurative language.
Only if you are an open theist, and even some of them (like in this thread) disagree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
First realize that it is being spoken of in a figurative sense and do not try to build your theology on that figurative language.
Only, if you, Jerry Shugart, are an open theist or process theologian. Otherwise 'no' and we can leave you with your pastor otherwise for remedial theology class while the rest of the adults talk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
Again, since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense.
DR is right here because all but Jerry thinks God is unrelational to time. Yes DR and I disagree as to the extent of God's relationship to us in time. He believing fully, I and all other non process or ov - relational but in part (unconstrained, relational to).
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
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Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
I think that Ephesians 1:4 means that we were chosen by God. However, I do not take the "time element" literally. Let us look at the verse in more detail:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
John Calvin correctly understood that the term "in Him" is referring to the Body of Christ:
" 'In Christ.' This is the second proof that the election is free; for if we are chosen in Christ, it is not of ourselves. It is not from a perception of anything that we deserve, but because our heavenly Father has introduced us, through the privilege of adoption, into the body of Christ. In short, the name of Christ excludes all merit, and everything which men have of their own; for when he says that we are chosen in Christ, it follows that in ourselves we are unworthy" (John Calvin, Commentary at Ephesians 1:4).
How can anyone be chosen "into the Body of Christ" before the foundation of the world since the Body of Christ did not even exist then? Obviously Paul was using figurative language.
You just have to deal with Ephesians 1:4 like you would any verse which contains figurative language. First realize that it is being spoken of in a figurative sense and do not try to build your theology on that figurative language.
Let me get this straight: you say that Eph 1:4 means "God chose us (in Christ) that we should be...." So the phrase "before the foundation of the world" has no meaning at all? When you say that it is figurative, you mean that it is figurative of nothing?
And the idea of purpose is also figurative of nothing? The verse has an action and a purpose. The action is 'chose us' and purpose is 'that we should be...' However, actions are relatively past to their corresponding purpose, are they not, the purpose always comes after the action? So this afterness (what you call time element) is just figurative language for nothing? I'm trying to understand what Eph 1:4 means to you if it doesn't mean what it says literally.
In fact, I'm just editing this post as I go along because I've just been looking up that commentary of Calvin in which he mentioned a 'second proof' to see what the first proof was and actually my guess was correct. Here it is:
Quote:
The very time when the election took place proves it to be free; for what could we have deserved, or what merit did we possess, before the world was made?
Clearly Calvin is not interpreting this text figuratively, is he?
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Last edited by Desert Reign; May 28th, 2012 at 07:02 PM.
Again, since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense.
"But in the fulness of time God sent forth His Son born of a woman born under the law."
"But in the fulness of time God sent forth His Son born of a woman born under the law."
As Calvinist William Ames said, "in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after."
That does not mean that God cannot interact with this universe which is contrained by time.
Calvinist Martyn Loyd-Jones explains God's relationship to time in the following manner:
"God is like a man making a watch or clock — He Himself is outside it, He exists without it, He is not a part of it. The watchmaker makes the watch, he winds it up, he sets it going, he is outside the process but he initiates the process, he sets the hands in motion. That may help us a little to understand the relationship of God to time. But, according to this biblical teaching, God set the process going and He keeps it going" (Martyn Loyd-Jones, God and Time).
God sent His Son into the world according to the "fulness of time" within the created universe but yet He remains outside of time. But just because He remains outside of time does not mean that He cannot interact with a system that is constrained by time.
"But in the fulness of time God sent forth His Son born of a woman born under the law."
You shouldn't read this literally brother..... or perhaps
"A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing. A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away...."
God exists outside of time then any instance where we see God doing things in "time" we can only understand that verse as being figurative and the figure of speech is:
"Anthropopatheia": "Ascribing to God what belongs to human and rational beings, irrational creatures, or inanimate things" (The Companion Bible, Appendix #6: Figures of Speech).
Therefore, in verses like Ephesians 1:4 the "time element" cannot be taken literally.
In "time" no one is chosen for salvation until he believes:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
Again, since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense.
Hi, Jerry
I certainly understand that time is an interesting thing when dealing with God. If the time element in the Ephesians verse is not to be understood as literal, is there any reason for Paul to even make the statement in the way that he does?
And does the non-literal time aspect of God have any meaning for Jesus?
I certainly understand that time is an interesting thing when dealing with God. If the time element in the Ephesians verse is not to be understood as literal, is there any reason for Paul to even make the statement in the way that he does?
Hi Rick,
In the Bible we see the authors using exaggerated language in order to try to reinforce an idea. The name of this figurative language is "Hyperbole" or "Exaggeration" which is "When more is said than is literally meant" (The Companion Bible, King James Version [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1980], Appendix 6: "Figures of Speech," 11).
This is a literary device where things are magnified beyond the limits of truth. That literary device is used in the following verse to teach just how secure believers should feel in regard to their salvation:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love""" (Eph.1:4).
Those who read these words would know that their being chosen in Jesus Christ was in God's plans from all eternity, giving them a sense of security in their salvation.
When we look closely at the "context" we can understand that the words in regard to having spiritual blessings in heavenly places and being "In Christ" are both in accordance with being chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.
Therefore the phrase "in Him" refers to "in Christ." And we can know that the phrase being "in Him" is in regard to the New Creation:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a New Creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (2 Cor.5:17).
The "New Creation" can be none other than the "New Man," the Body of Christ and only in the Body can it be said that we have been "blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." That is exactly what Paul refers to here:
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:4-6).
No one sits together in heavenly places until they have been quickened together with Jesus Christ. And that only happens when faith is exercised.
Since no one can be "in Him" until he believes we can know that no one was actually chosen "in Him" before the fondation of the world because the Body of Christ did not come into existence until the Law was set aside and that is why it is described as the New Man:
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one New Man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one Body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:15-16).
It is impossible that anyone was chosen in the body of Christ before the foundation of the world since it did not even exist then. Therefore we can understand that Paul's comment at Ephesians 1:4 is a literary device Paul employed to give his readers a sense of security.
Quote:
And does the non-literal time aspect of God have any meaning for Jesus?
When He was on the earth He was constrained by time just as we are. However, since He is now in the eternal state He is no longer contrained by time.
Last edited by Jerry Shugart; June 2nd, 2012 at 06:12 PM.
In the Bible we see the authors using exaggerated language in order to try to reinforce an idea. The name of this figurative language is "Hyperbole" or "Exaggeration" which is "When more is said than is literally meant" (The Companion Bible, King James Version [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1980], Appendix 6: "Figures of Speech," 11).
This is a literary device where things are magnified beyond the limits of truth. That literary device is used in the following verse to teach just how secure believers should feel in regard to their salvation:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"" (Eph.1:4).
Those who read these words would know that their being chosen in Jesus Christ was in God's plans from all eternity, giving them a sense of security in their salvation.
Of course no one can literally be chosen to be in Him before the foundation of the world because being in Him is dependent on receiving the righteousness which is of God and receiving that blessing does not happen until a person exercises faith:
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.5:21).
"And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9).
We know that in reality that no one receives the righteousness which is of God until they "believe":
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe" (Ro.3:21-22).
Since no one can be "in Him" until he believes we can know that no one was actually chosen "in Him" before the fondation of the world because we did not even exist then and therefore could not have possibly believed then. Therefore we can understand that Paul's words at Ephesians 1:4 about being "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" is a literary device Paul employed to give his readers a sense of security.
When He was on the earth He was constrained by time just as we are. However, since He is now in the eternal state He is no longer contrained by time.
That's fairly Ok . . . . . for unregenerate thinking.
In the Bible we see the authors using exaggerated language in order to try to reinforce an idea. The name of this figurative language is "Hyperbole" or "Exaggeration" which is "When more is said than is literally meant" (The Companion Bible, King James Version [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1980], Appendix 6: "Figures of Speech," 11).
This is a literary device where things are magnified beyond the limits of truth. That literary device is used in the following verse to teach just how secure believers should feel in regard to their salvation:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"" (Eph.1:4).
Those who read these words would know that their being chosen in Jesus Christ was in God's plans from all eternity, giving them a sense of security in their salvation.
Of course no one can literally be chosen to be in Him before the foundation of the world because being in Him is dependent on receiving the righteousness which is of God and receiving that blessing does not happen until a person exercises faith:
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.5:21).
"And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9).
We know that in reality that no one receives the righteousness which is of God until they "believe":
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe" (Ro.3:21-22).
Since no one can be "in Him" until he believes we can know that no one was actually chosen "in Him" before the fondation of the world because we did not even exist then and therefore could not have possibly believed then. Therefore we can understand that Paul's words at Ephesians 1:4 about being "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" is a literary device Paul employed to give his readers a sense of security.
When He was on the earth He was constrained by time just as we are. However, since He is now in the eternal state He is no longer contrained by time.
Jerry,
I understand hyperbole but I personally do not find it in this verse. Let's suppose that Paul was using an hyperbolic devise in this verse. Let's also suppose that instead of the being chosen before the foundation of the world, Paul wrote that we were chosen on the day when God created light. Would that make any difference? The choice was within "Time" but certainly within the realm of what could possibly be considered either literal or hyperbolic.
When you write
"Those who read these words would know that their being chosen in Jesus Christ was in God's plans from all eternity, giving them a sense of security in their salvation."
I believe you are correct, but I still have to take the "time" of the choice as being "literally" before Creation even if time is meaningless when the Trinity was alone.
Frankly, it does not make much sense to have Paul write that they were chosen "in the "past'' " when he means they were chosen when God saved them.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
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