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Reload this Page Inquiry: Huckabee: a liberal or conservative
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  (#121) Old
Markopi Markopi is offline
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January 7th, 2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopey Gigglz View Post
?
Maybe in some demented universe this makes sense. Like Canada or Britain.
As far as I can tell, there are no conservative candidates. Well, not ones that have any shot at winning. Paul seems conservative, but some of his views on foreign policy, though they make sense at times, are hard to swallow. I would like for him to win. Better than Yuckabee.
All mainstream Democrats are centralist conservatives, other than Dennis and Mike.

None support single-payer health care.
None are against the death penalty.
None vote(d) against funding the illegal war.
None are pushing for the impeachment of the two biggest criminals in American history.
None support gay marriage.
None favor the implementation of national initiatives and recalls.
None favor the removal of the War on Drugs.
Only Edwards is for universal college and pre-kindergarten.
None have put forward plans to finally rest world poverty and preventable disease.
None have voted against the Patriot Act.
None support a living wage to help all working Americans live comfortably.
None want to socialize the public services.

All liberal policies these conservative losers will never implement because our political spectrum is defined by politicians on the "right" and "far right."



   
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Dopey Gigglz Dopey Gigglz is offline
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January 8th, 2008, 12:04 AM

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Originally Posted by Markopi View Post
All mainstream Democrats are centralist conservatives, other than Dennis and Mike.
Look, I don't want to quibble over verbiage. We can call them whatever we want. Whatever. But to libertarians or constitutionalists, the candidates don't fit under what we call conservative. I guess, though, we have a good streak of classical liberalism as well, so liberal/conservative/republican/whatever doesn't mean beans to me. All I know is they all suck.

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None support single-payer health care.
None are against the death penalty.
None vote(d) against funding the illegal war.
None are pushing for the impeachment of the two biggest criminals in American history.
None support gay marriage.
None favor the implementation of national initiatives and recalls.
None favor the removal of the War on Drugs.
Only Edwards is for universal college and pre-kindergarten.
None have put forward plans to finally rest world poverty and preventable disease.
None have voted against the Patriot Act.
None support a living wage to help all working Americans live comfortably.
None want to socialize the public services.
Since Paul has been on the "liberal" side of many of those issues, where would you place him?

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All liberal policies these conservative losers will never implement because our political spectrum is defined by politicians on the "right" and "far right."
No argument from me there.



   
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  (#123) Old
Markopi Markopi is offline
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January 8th, 2008, 12:09 AM

I adhere to political quadrants more than I do a linear spectrum. There are right-libertarians such as yourself and left-libertarians such as myself. I am talking strictly of the authoritarian quadrants since the only candidates I think could constitute libertarian are Ron Paul and Mike Gravel.



   
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  (#124) Old
Dopey Gigglz Dopey Gigglz is offline
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January 8th, 2008, 12:11 AM

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Originally Posted by Markopi View Post
I adhere to political quadrants more than I do a linear spectrum. There are right-libertarians such as yourself and left-libertarians such as myself. I am talking strictly of the authoritarian quadrants since the only candidates I think could constitute libertarian are Ron Paul and Mike Gravel.
I was actually kind of excited when the whole rumors about a Paul/Kucinich ticket were floating around. We need to jettison the two-party system.



   
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January 8th, 2008, 01:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopey Gigglz View Post
I was actually kind of excited when the whole rumors about a Paul/Kucinich ticket were floating around. We need to jettison the two-party system.
Those rumors were never founded in anything. Paul has a number of supporters who sympathize with the progressive-socialists of the "left" (whatever that means). The Paul/Kucinich ticket rumors were started by those supporters who liked both and didn't realize that the two would and could never share the same government.

I half agree with you on the last point. However, I don't see our current problems with the two-party system as inherently tied to the fact that there are two parties. The root of the problem is the power of the state (meaning government generally). The power of the parties is inherently tied to the power they possess through their control of the government (as is the power of lobbyists, which is why I wonder what Edwards is thinking when he decries lobbyists' influence while advocating big government), and it is power alone that causes the corruption of the parties and the intense loyalties that they command among those voters who foolishly think that they share in that power. While it is possible to have big government and many parties (examples abound), the American establishment will not change in any real way unless it is first stripped of its power.



   
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  (#126) Old
Just Tom Just Tom is offline
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January 8th, 2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuGnostic View Post
You mean he advocates worker run healthcare?
Government paid healthcare... I have to pay for your kids health care because you won't do it for yourself because you don't love your kids enough to sacrifice for them..

Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Not worker run...



   
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  (#127) Old
Markopi Markopi is offline
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January 8th, 2008, 02:17 AM

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Originally Posted by Just Tom View Post
Government paid healthcare... I have to pay for your kids health care because you won't do it for yourself because you don't love your kids enough to sacrifice for them..

Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Not worker run...
Oh, so you're a Social Darwinist. Got it.

Using the dictionary to define a socio-economic theory. Very classy. Too bad we could then use that definition to call anyone who supports change a liberal.

Hey Tom, you're a dirty liberal.

Trying to define socialism without including worker control is really pathetic on your part. I know you're just trying to prove a point but at least have the dignity to sound reasonable.

Social ownership is a scary concept for some people because it means there's a libertarian alternative to public services. "Socialized" health care would mean the health care providers operate democratically. There could be a hundred different providers and the system would still be called "socialized medicine."



   
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  (#128) Old
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January 8th, 2008, 03:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markopi View Post
Oh, so you're a Social Darwinist. Got it.

Using the dictionary to define a socio-economic theory. Very classy. Too bad we could then use that definition to call anyone who supports change a liberal.

Hey Tom, you're a dirty liberal.

Trying to define socialism without including worker control is really pathetic on your part. I know you're just trying to prove a point but at least have the dignity to sound reasonable.

Social ownership is a scary concept for some people because it means there's a libertarian alternative to public services. "Socialized" health care would mean the health care providers operate democratically. There could be a hundred different providers and the system would still be called "socialized medicine."

Fancy smancy,,

It means nothing of the kind you duffus.. I work in the healthcare industry and what it means is that people can show up for what ever neurotic pain they have and expect that you should be able to get rid of it for them and that the government by way of stealing from the workers with taxes will foot the bill.. That is what it means.. Why don't we have socialized food then.. Since I can't live with out food so isn't that something that the government should provide for me? How about housing since I need that to live also and why we are at it how about a living wage?

Thou shalt not steal... Any law or form of government or system of this or that which violates that is wrong and will fail..

And by your standards if they operated democratically then they wouldn't take care of those who can't pay since you can't stay in business if they don't have any money to pay the bill. Would that be their democratic right under your socialized system?



   
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  (#129) Old
Markopi Markopi is offline
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January 8th, 2008, 04:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Tom View Post
Fancy smancy,,

It means nothing of the kind you duffus.. I work in the healthcare industry and what it means is that people can show up for what ever neurotic pain they have and expect that you should be able to get rid of it for them and that the government by way of stealing from the workers with taxes will foot the bill.. That is what it means.. Why don't we have socialized food then.. Since I can't live with out food so isn't that something that the government should provide for me? How about housing since I need that to live also and why we are at it how about a living wage?

Thou shalt not steal... Any law or form of government or system of this or that which violates that is wrong and will fail..

And by your standards if they operated democratically then they wouldn't take care of those who can't pay since you can't stay in business if they don't have any money to pay the bill. Would that be their democratic right under your socialized system?
"You doofus."

Rich coming from someone whose claim to knowing what socialism is comes from working in the health care business.

You have an acute knowledge of participatory economics versus a market system. Study before you ask simple questions like "shouldn't food be given to me?"

Quote:
Thou shalt not steal... Any law or form of government or system of this or that which violates that is wrong and will fail..
I agree! Capitalism is wrong and will fail.

Property is theft. The people will have their rightful possessions restored to them.



   
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  (#130) Old
Just Tom Just Tom is offline
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January 8th, 2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markopi View Post
"You doofus."

Rich coming from someone whose claim to knowing what socialism is comes from working in the health care business.

You have an acute knowledge of participatory economics versus a market system. Study before you ask simple questions like "shouldn't food be given to me?"



I agree! Capitalism is wrong and will fail.

Property is theft. The people will have their rightful possessions restored to them.
My knowledge of socialism doesn't' come from working in healthcare it comes from an informed knowledge of human nature. Everyone is not equal nor do they deserve the same things.. You deserve what you are willing to work for and what someone is willing to pay you for you work. FREEDOM ain't it great. Just like in every place that tries socialism like Cuba or Germany a few rise up and rule everyone. Thus the majority live in squalor because stealing is not a good form of government or an economic theory. It looks good on paper and in the class rooms of the liberal uninversities but when put to the test in with the reality of human nature it fails and causes millions to live in misery.

We here in the USA, have poor but they are better off than the middle class in most socialist countries. They can work their way out of poverty if they so choose of they can just stay in their victim mentality and expect someone else to steal from the rich and give them something because they are a WORKER and we own everything.

Preach on Feidel preach on...



   
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  (#131) Old
Markopi Markopi is offline
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January 8th, 2008, 01:30 PM

Quote:
My knowledge of socialism doesn't' come from working in healthcare it comes from an informed knowledge of human nature. Everyone is not equal nor do they deserve the same things..
And here once again you display your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Quote:
We here in the USA, have poor but they are better off than the middle class in most socialist countries. They can work their way out of poverty if they so choose of they can just stay in their victim mentality and expect someone else to steal from the rich and give them something because they are a WORKER and we own everything.
There are no socialist countries. Are you referring to the social democracies of Norway, Switzerland, and Sweden where the average person lives better than the average American?

Get a book.

Quote:
FREEDOM ain't it great.
It is. Too bad a capitalist neo-con (fascist) like yourself doesn't appreciate freedom.





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January 8th, 2008, 02:46 PM

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Originally Posted by Markopi View Post
And here once again you display your lack of knowledge on the subject.
Who'd of thunk that people might be more willing to work if they are rewarded for it?

Quote:
There are no socialist countries. Are you referring to the social democracies of Norway, Switzerland, and Sweden where the average person lives better than the average American?
If America had a $200 billion oil trust for every group of citizens the size of Norway's population, we might not have so many problems either...

Sweden's another good model. Let's continually inflate our currency every year just so people can think they're always getting raises! Oh, and young people deserve jobs so their parents should be forced into retirement in their 40's and 50's.

I would put a lot of the blame for this country on our idiotic foreign policy and corrupt iron triangles... It's impossible to see how much health care corporations (like Big Pharma) are in bed with Congress and still blame the market for health care problems. Bush's disastrous pharmaceuticals plan? Free market at work, baby. HMOs and copay insurance? Government had nothing to do with that! Etc., etc.

(Heh...Firefox thinks "HMOs" is supposed to be "homos")

Quote:
It is. Too bad a capitalist neo-con (fascist) like yourself doesn't appreciate freedom.
Right. The kind of "freedom" where the community decides what you should have and what you can do. And did you just associate neo-cons with capitalism? Those Roosevelt-loving, big spending, no-bid contract making corporatists? Please...



   
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Wessex Man Wessex Man is offline
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January 8th, 2008, 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Tom View Post
Government paid healthcare... I have to pay for your kids health care because you won't do it for yourself because you don't love your kids enough to sacrifice for them..

Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Not worker run...
As a socialist I can assure you that it means worker controlled to us and always has and what other definition has any relevance?





I am an aristocrat. I love liberty; I hate equality.

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What is Whiggery? A leveling, rancorous, rational sort of mind, that never looked out of the eye of a saint , or out of a drunkard's eye. All's Whiggery now, but we old men are massed against the world.
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P8ntrDan P8ntrDan is offline
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January 8th, 2008, 04:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Morphy View Post
Guys, forgive me my poor knowledge, but the only news channels I have here are liberal ones. My question is: Huckabee - is he a liberal posed to be a conservative or is he a real conservative. For all the mass media here everybody who is not a communist is a conservative thus the only normal people, TOL members, can tell me the truth.
I think the technical term for people like him is a conserberal...





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yankeedoodled yankeedoodled is offline
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March 9th, 2008, 10:06 AM

Given the no freedom of socialism/Communism, spread the misery and squalor equally and the known prosperity of Capitalism. A prosperity socialist/communist complain bitterly about. Accusations of Rich,fat,lazy Americans.
I think i'll vote for prosperity over squalor despite the intellectuals insistance to ignore the proof history has amply provided. Capitalism is the most humane choice hands down !




Last edited by yankeedoodled; March 9th, 2008 at 08:54 PM.. Reason: typos clarification
   
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