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"The only things that are infinite are the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein
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9/11: What Really Happened? -
May 18th, 2008, 05:50 PM
This forum seems uncommon in that people of all different political and religious views are present. So I'd like to get some opinions: what really happened on 9/11? Is the official story true, or is the government covering something up? Try to keep responses at least tentatively connected to 9/11.
This forum seems uncommon in that people of all different political and religious views are present. So I'd like to get some opinions: what really happened on 9/11? Is the official story true, or is the government covering something up? Try to keep responses at least tentatively connected to 9/11.
A bunch of people who hate the U.S. for a variety of reasons hijacked four airplanes and crashed three of them into buildings and one attack was defeated by the passengers.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
This forum seems uncommon in that people of all different political and religious views are present. So I'd like to get some opinions: what really happened on 9/11? Is the official story true, or is the government covering something up? Try to keep responses at least tentatively connected to 9/11.
We obviously don't know all the details and it's possible the government covers up things that could show weaknesses in security but essentially the official story is true.
Muslim terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into buildings murdering thousands of innocent people.
Slogan/motto:
Manifest plainness, embrace simplicity, reduce selfishness, have few desires.
Reputation:
May 18th, 2008, 07:31 PM
I don't believe the official story.
P.S. "Conspiracy" isn't a dirty word.
"In a fractional reserve banking system like the United States banking system, most of the funds advanced to borrowers (assets of the bank) are created by the banks themselves and are not merely transferred from one set of depositors to another set of borrowers." - Walker F. Todd
Slogan/motto:
B.A.H.H. cannot be sheep!
Born Again Heisenberg Heretic
Reputation:
May 18th, 2008, 08:52 PM
The laws of physics do not care about the US government, Christianity, Islam or money. In the case of the south tower a 175 ton airliner containing 34 tons of jet fuel hit a 500,000 ton building at the 81st floor traveling at about 540 mph.
Now in SIX YEARS have you heard how many tons of steel were in the impact zone?
Considering the millions of tons of steel that must have been produced in this country in the last 100+ years shouldn't experts have some idea what it takes to heat a certain amount of steel to 1100 deg F in 56 MINUTES? So shouldn't we know how much steel was there?
Wouldn't it make sense to want to know the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level of the WTC to analyze this? Supposedly this was a gravitational collapse started by the plane. So how much of what collapsed onto what? I have downloaded the entire NIST report. I cannot find the total quantity of concrete in the towers.
The United States is the nation that put men on the moon. It is totally absurd to not know the distribution of steel and concrete in buildings that were world famous before 9/11 and designed before the moon landing.
Slogan/motto:
Shouting at the world cause no one's listening...
Reputation:
May 18th, 2008, 09:01 PM
I'm not sure exactly what I believe, but I can tell you that all is not as it seems. My first really really big problem is this:
The planes hit the towers with enough force and fuel supposedly to melt steel and thus the collapse of the buildings. However, several PAPER passports belonging to the "terrorists" (and others) were found in near perfect condition within the wreckage of the buildings. That is just not logical to me.
Another issue I've had since the day it happened was the total lack of damage on the grass in front of the pentagon.
What does this all mean? I'm not sure, but it seems to me that there is more going on then what we've been told.
The laws of physics do not care about the US government, Christianity, Islam or money. In the case of the south tower a 175 ton airliner containing 34 tons of jet fuel hit a 500,000 ton building at the 81st floor traveling at about 540 mph.
Now in SIX YEARS have you heard how many tons of steel were in the impact zone?
Considering the millions of tons of steel that must have been produced in this country in the last 100+ years shouldn't experts have some idea what it takes to heat a certain amount of steel to 1100 deg F in 56 MINUTES? So shouldn't we know how much steel was there?
Wouldn't it make sense to want to know the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level of the WTC to analyze this? Supposedly this was a gravitational collapse started by the plane. So how much of what collapsed onto what? I have downloaded the entire NIST report. I cannot find the total quantity of concrete in the towers.
The United States is the nation that put men on the moon. It is totally absurd to not know the distribution of steel and concrete in buildings that were world famous before 9/11 and designed before the moon landing.
I don't see the point in wondering about who or why when we can't even answer the what about some simple physics questions.
psik
That was one pathetic video. It ignored so much of the physics of what happened that day to be laughable. None of his "tests" damaged the support structure of his tower. That by itself totally invalidates any point he may have been trying to make. The physics questions have been answered. The building shell was a major support structure for the building and several floors on both side of the building were damaged by the impact. Damage on both sides of the building implies damage to the central core of the building as well and enough shrapnel to scour a good deal fire proofing off the steel. Now we need only heat the steel to a temperature where it begins to lose strength and soften, a temperature far below the melting point. Once the first floor collapses, down it all comes.
Try standing on an empty pop can. It will easily support about 150 pounds. Now firmly tap both sides with the tips of your fingers. (Do it quick and get your fingers out of the way in a hurry!) What happens? The can immediately turns into a pancake. Why, because the ability of the aluminum to support your weight while it perfectly straight was distored when the sides of the can were damaged. Same thing. The support structure of the building failed and it collapsed. No bombs. No thermite. Just simple physics.
Now, I do find it much more plausible that the government is cover up how it used the attacks to advance policies that are beneficial to some and deadly to others.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
I'm not sure exactly what I believe, but I can tell you that all is not as it seems. My first really really big problem is this:
The planes hit the towers with enough force and fuel supposedly to melt steel and thus the collapse of the buildings. However, several PAPER passports belonging to the "terrorists" (and others) were found in near perfect condition within the wreckage of the buildings. That is just not logical to me.
Another issue I've had since the day it happened was the total lack of damage on the grass in front of the pentagon.
What does this all mean? I'm not sure, but it seems to me that there is more going on then what we've been told.
Strange things happen in high velocity impacts. Things blown clear of the ari craft land at the base of the building and are covered in rubble as the tower came down.
And if the air plane never touched the grass, why would it be disturbed?
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Slogan/motto:
Manifest plainness, embrace simplicity, reduce selfishness, have few desires.
Reputation:
May 18th, 2008, 10:20 PM
One aspect of this debate I cannot stand is when those who object to the "9/11 Truth" movement contend that conspiracy theorists are disrespecting those who died on 9/11 by questioning our government's official explanation. This is completely ridiculous, and is a disingenuous tactic used to prevent any meaningful dialogue from occurring. We all were devastated by 9/11, and we all feel terribly sorry for anyone who lost a family member or friend in those attacks. However, if the actual events of 9/11 greatly differed from the official government story, wouldn't we owe it to those who lost their lives to uncover the truth about the tragic event?
Just look at the death of Pat Tillman. The ex-NFL star was killed by friendly fire while fighting for our country, but the official government explanation was that he died heroically in a fierce gun battle with the enemy. In due time (and following much investigation), the actual story of Tillman's death was uncovered, and it was far different (he was killed by friendly fire) than the government explanation. Put yourself in the shoes of Tillman's family; wouldn't you like to know how your son actually died? Wouldn't knowing the truth about your son's death honor his memory moreso than blindly accepting a bogus story?
There is far too much credible evidence suggesting an alternate explanation to blindly accept the government's official story.
"In a fractional reserve banking system like the United States banking system, most of the funds advanced to borrowers (assets of the bank) are created by the banks themselves and are not merely transferred from one set of depositors to another set of borrowers." - Walker F. Todd
Slogan/motto:
Shouting at the world cause no one's listening...
Reputation:
May 18th, 2008, 10:25 PM
It.Melted.Steel. but several papers that just happened to give the "identities" of the terrorists survives even though its in the exact middle of an explosion that was so hot apparently it melting steel. You see absolutely nothing wrong with this? Did I mention the paper surving heat that melting steel bit? Blown clear of the aircraft??? I don't believe that for a second.
Slogan/motto:
Manifest plainness, embrace simplicity, reduce selfishness, have few desires.
Reputation:
May 18th, 2008, 10:37 PM
One strange and confounding fact about the attacks of 9/11 is that a few of the Islamic terrorists who were cited by our federal government as being on the planes that crashed into the WTC buildings...are still alive! Shortly after 9/11, a few of these suspects came forward and put to rest claims that they had been 9/11 hijackers. Yet the official story remains the same; the identities of the original 19 were never changed in future reports.
"In a fractional reserve banking system like the United States banking system, most of the funds advanced to borrowers (assets of the bank) are created by the banks themselves and are not merely transferred from one set of depositors to another set of borrowers." - Walker F. Todd
Slogan/motto:
Manifest plainness, embrace simplicity, reduce selfishness, have few desires.
Reputation:
May 18th, 2008, 10:44 PM
With all this being said, however, I don't believe we will ever get to the bottom of the story. Just look at the assassination of JFK. Look at the Lusitania. If there is one thing history has taught us, it is that out government is pretty good at covering things up (with a few exceptions; Iran-Contra, etc.).
"In a fractional reserve banking system like the United States banking system, most of the funds advanced to borrowers (assets of the bank) are created by the banks themselves and are not merely transferred from one set of depositors to another set of borrowers." - Walker F. Todd
Slogan/motto:
Shouting at the world cause no one's listening...
Reputation:
May 18th, 2008, 10:44 PM
This is also interesting to me. Does anyone remember that video of about a dozen guys cheering the attacks? I seem to recall being told that they were muslim. In fact turned out that they were Israelis. The video then seemed to disappear (well off the airwaves anyway).
Slogan/motto:
B.A.H.H. cannot be sheep!
Born Again Heisenberg Heretic
Reputation:
May 18th, 2008, 11:06 PM
Quote:
That was one pathetic video. It ignored so much of the physics of what happened that day to be laughable. None of his "tests" damaged the support structure of his tower.
The only thing that is obvious is that you didn't understand the purpose of the video.
The whole point of the time lapse sections was to show that a vertical flexible structure behaved differently depending on the mass and the distribution of mass. Why do you think I inserted the questions about the tons of steel and concrete on every level? The model wasn't built to be destroyed by the impacts. I was not trying to simulate the collapse. The problem with such a model is that the strength to weight of objects change as they get larger so a small model would not behave like the towers in a collapse. An ant can lift 10 times its weight easily. Can you?
That pop can example is a demonstration of how small objects do not behave like large ones when tested to destruction. Small objects operate closer to the atomic bonding level.
Quote:
Now we need only heat the steel to a temperature where it begins to lose strength and soften, a temperature far below the melting point. Once the first floor collapses, down it all comes.
Oh sure, with 100,000 tons of steel per tower that comes to 862 tons of steel per level. How high can you raise the temperature of steel in 56 MINUTES with an open carbon fire. But because we don't know the distribution of steel we don't know how much was actually on those floors. A 1360 foot skyscraper has to have more steel toward the bottom. But that raises the question of how the lighter upper portion could crush the heavier lower portion in less than 18 seconds.
So why can't the nation that put men on the moon tell the entire world the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level of buildings designed before the moon landing. What kind of computers were used to help with the design work in the early 60s? They were still using core memory back then. But now we can't get a measly weight distribution.
Another problem with this entire situation dragging on for SIX YEARS is that a lot of people trying to make decisions about it aren't thinking of some of the questions to ask. How do you design and build a 110 story skyscraper without determining and DOCUMENTING the steel and concrete. But the NIST doesn't even tell us the total amount of concrete in the towers.
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