It is the open theist who makes God the puppet master. On one hand the open theist believes God has disclosed eschatology to us, and that we have free will. But then the open theist believes God has to pull billions of strings every day to make sure everything works out the way He said it would. What happens to free will during this string pulling process?
You totally misrepresent the open view. We believe that God is free. We believe he doesn't pull strings. While occasionly he may supernaturally intervene it is not his normal mode.
He may bring certain things to pass, he is always free to do a new thing.
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
For those here who are relatively new to this area of doctrine, I have a little chart. I created it for a friend a few years ago.
LFW = Libertarian Free Will (a term many consider redundant, but it's used to get around Calvinists' equivocating on the term "free will," which they often ascribe to human beings while at the same time claiming that people have no ability to do anything other than what God foreordained. LFW means a person has the genuine ability to do or not to do. Not just freedom of action, but truly free will.
EDF = Exhaustive Definite Foreknowledge. In other words, God knows every detail of everything that will ever happen, and always has known it from eternity past.
MP = Meticulous Providence. In other words, everything that ever happens, happens because God foreordained it and willed for it to happen. A leaf falls, a train is 37 seconds late, and a man rapes a child, each because God willed it to happen and foreordained/predestined it to happen from eternity past.
The Bible has no book of 1 & 2 Presidents, or 1 & 2 Legislators (the latter of which are specifically entrusted to continually change the law, something the Lord repeatedly rebukes Israel for doing).
Scripture does, however, have a book of Judges, and a book of 1 & 2 Kings. These are the rightful, divinely-ordained rulers of any just society under the principles of biblical theonomy.
If you believe that ... why does God not go back in time and fix things?
Because God is a respecter of man’s free will
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Because it's not possible
Anything is possible with God, however God can not compromise His perfect attributes. For God to go back in time to fix something would compromise His perfect justice, His perfect righteousness, and many of His other perfect attributes.
You totally misrepresent the open view. We believe that God is free. We believe he doesn't pull strings. While occasionly he may supernaturally intervene it is not his normal mode.
He may bring certain things to pass, he is always free to do a new thing.
Let’s use the battle of Armageddon as the example.
According to open theists, God doesn’t know the future, but somehow prophesized to us this battle will take place anyway. Which of the following is true according to open theism?
1. God has to coerce millions of human beings and events for this battle to take place. This violates human free will.
2. God guessed this battle will take place. It may or it may not.
3. God is free, and sitting back and watching. However God may get mad, and change His mind, and the battle may not happen
Genesis 22:12
"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
And Tetelestai, you truly betray your ignorance about the Open View when you say,
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...the open theist believes God has to pull billions of strings every day to make sure everything works out the way He said it would. What happens to free will during this string pulling process...
What you obviously fail to understand is that the Open View holds that not everythin ghappens the way He said it would. Your assumptions are showing...
The Bible has no book of 1 & 2 Presidents, or 1 & 2 Legislators (the latter of which are specifically entrusted to continually change the law, something the Lord repeatedly rebukes Israel for doing).
Scripture does, however, have a book of Judges, and a book of 1 & 2 Kings. These are the rightful, divinely-ordained rulers of any just society under the principles of biblical theonomy.
Slogan/motto:
Ps82 KJV You will die like mere men, you will fall like one of the princes, but who is it that is not a man that dies like a man?
Reputation:
December 27th, 2008, 03:18 PM
I guess I follow Open Theism.
I take this view:
I believe that God set things up and then set them in motion to be manifested in a free developing situation.
Much like a tree that springs from a germinated seed. That tree begins to grow freely.
Yet, God explains that HE can water it, prune it, and even remove or graft in branches ... so he allows freedom of growth while at the same time maintaining the ability to intervene to bring about his desire.
I conclude that time is IN HIM, for how can anything be outside of an omni-present God?...HE is also able to grant freewill and free development within the creation that is within him, while simultaneously directing his will within the creation. For example, bringing forth his prophets from the gene pool of humanity at just the right times appointed -etc.
Yet, I know from 4 super-natural dreams that he gave me that he is also aware of things that are going to come to pass within a person's future life. He informed me of things that were going to come to pass in my future. He did not make these things clear to me when I dreamed them - nor did he tell me what to do in each future situation when it arrived. I just came through those experiences understanding that God is real, he is alive, and somehow he knows what is going on in my life. (past, present, and future.)
I just accept that HE is God and with him all things are possible. I think that the phrase "His permissive will" comes to play in this.
Last edited by Ps82; December 27th, 2008 at 03:48 PM.
Let’s use the battle of Armageddon as the example.
According to open theists, God doesn’t know the future, but somehow prophesized to us this battle will take place anyway. Which of the following is true according to open theism?
1. God has to coerce millions of human beings and events for this battle to take place. This violates human free will.
2. God guessed this battle will take place. It may or it may not.
3. God is free, and sitting back and watching. However God may get mad, and change His mind, and the battle may not happen
4. ???????
Some things God has unconditionally foreordained, and will definitely happen. Defeating Satan certainly is unconditionally foreordained, and this is absolutely necessary in respect to His attribute of Justice.
However, a number of details in Revelation may or may not happen, because God's justice and love and grace aren't inherently dependent upon them. So, this is just like the many OT prophecies (and a couple NT) which never came about as stated.
The Bible has no book of 1 & 2 Presidents, or 1 & 2 Legislators (the latter of which are specifically entrusted to continually change the law, something the Lord repeatedly rebukes Israel for doing).
Scripture does, however, have a book of Judges, and a book of 1 & 2 Kings. These are the rightful, divinely-ordained rulers of any just society under the principles of biblical theonomy.
Slogan/motto:
Evidence that cannot dispel all doubt is still evidence - perhaps very good and overwhelming evidence
Reputation:
December 27th, 2008, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Knight
God is bound by many things.
God is bound by His own reality isn't He? He couldn't decide to have never existed could He? He couldn't make a three-sided triangle or create a rock so big He couldn't lift it. Those are logical absurdities. God is real, rational, and logical and therefore bound by the character of His own existence.
I agree that God is bound by His own character.
Here is where I get lost:
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I would assert to you that time is one of those things that defines God.
I've seen many Scriptures that describe the attributes & character of Almighty God, but this is not among them... unless I've missed something...
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God is a living God and therefore experiences reality sequentially which allows God to be rational.
That God experiences things sequentially does in no way prevent Him also doing otherwise. He most certainly experiences everything quite differently from what we do - it's all a part of His uniqueness.
This also confuses me:
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Time wasn't created, time merely is.
This is completely without foundation, and actually contradicts every finding of science, interpretation of evidence notwithstanding. Time is an intrinsic part of the space-time continuum - without one, you don't have the other. Perhaps you hold to the theory that the space in which all this matter floats in the Universe also "merely is," but that is also contrary to all scientific knowledge - it is irrational. Both time and space (as we now experience them) had their beginning simultaneously at that point described in Genesis 1: 1 "In the beginning, God ..."
If you have some sort of evidence that I've not seen about the origin of everything we know, I'd surely like to see it.
This part is quite fascinating...
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Time is how we describe a sequential reality.
though simplistic. Of course we describe things sequentially - we're temporal beings. We certainly can't comprehend anything else. It's all part of the "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts" thing.
And this...
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God created us in His image and therefore we experience one event after another event (sequentially) similar to God.
... wow, is just an amazing assertion. So since we see in the visual spectrum of light, that's all God can see? Since we hear in the auditory spectrum of sound, that's all God can hear? Why would you assume that since we experience all things sequentially, that God is limited to that perspective?
Futility: "More than at any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and hopelessness; the other, to total extinction. Let us pray that we will have the wisdom to choose correctly. I speak, by the way, not with any sense of futility, but with a panicky conviction of the absolute meaninglessness of existence."
- Woody Allen
Hope:
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.
Philippians 4:6-8
Not because He knows it, but because He has guaranteed it with His resurrection, and I am sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of the redemption of the promised possession. If He has purposed to secure me in that, then nothing can stop Him, now can it? Or is your God so weak He cannot guarantee such a thing...?
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How do you know you will go to Heaven when you die?
See above, and Romans 10:9-10.
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How do you know that Jesus will even come back?
Because it is necessary for Him to fulfill His purpose of both justice and grace, and to bring to a completion His plan for this world. It doesn't have to happen on a particular day. In fact, we can "hasten" His coming, thus changing what day this will happen. It is not certain what day He will come, and so we pray earnestly, "Lord, come quickly!"
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Originally Posted by tetelestai
How does He do this without violating free will?
If God purposes unconditionally to drive from Denver to Chicago, can anyone stop Him? Of course not.
And if He purposes or wills unconditionally to have a final battle against Satan, is anyone going to stop Him? Is there any chance of Him losing?
No, and no. How on earth does that depend on human free will? It doesn't. Like I said, many details may or may not happen, just like a lot of OT prophecies which didn't come to pass as stated.
Why do you find this so difficult to understand? It's pretty elementary.
The Bible has no book of 1 & 2 Presidents, or 1 & 2 Legislators (the latter of which are specifically entrusted to continually change the law, something the Lord repeatedly rebukes Israel for doing).
Scripture does, however, have a book of Judges, and a book of 1 & 2 Kings. These are the rightful, divinely-ordained rulers of any just society under the principles of biblical theonomy.
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