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the Catholic, Biblical, Original Church -
April 26th, 2010, 11:33 AM
I have a chronic illness, so I have lots of time to read the New Testament.
The more I study the Scriptures, the more evidence I find that the Catholic Church is the Biblical Church.
For example, James 2:13, 14, 17, 19, 20, 22, 24, 26 and James 5:20 clearly say that we are not saved by faith alone,
though Paul was quite right in the context of the Judaizing heresy to emphasize--just like the Council of Trent, cf. DS 1548--that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that we can do to earn our justification; and that keeping the Jewish Law can in no wise earn this.
Yet in a different sense we can say that we are justfied by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24), just as Paul testifies even in Romans 2:6-7.
And In Jn 6:4, 51-58 we see the Catholic teaching on the Mass.
In Romans 12:1 Paul says we should offer our bodies--ie the Body of Christ (Rom 12:5, Eph 5:30--as a Living Sacrifice. Yet nobody would say this implies an addition to Christ's grace or a New Sacrifice.
Hebrews confirms this by saying that Christ is a Priest Forever: i.e. His One Sacrifice Never Ends (cf. Heb 7:17, 25)
All of this is supported by Church history, which is the history of Jesus (Eph 1:22-23)
peace in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
Who makes us really free (Jn 8:36)--not just "forensically free"!,
pat
Last edited by patricius79; April 26th, 2010 at 11:56 AM.
Slogan/motto:
For as much as it depends on you, live at peace with others.
Reputation:
April 26th, 2010, 11:53 AM
I have just as much legitimacy claiming to a descendant of the King of England as the RCC has to being a 'spritual' decendant of Peter. Hearsay is hearsay.
The fact that Peter did not leave anything in writing about whether he was passing his authority on is no different the me not having a piece of writing that stating that my great grandfather was a windsor.
As time goes on, I see the RCC being nothing more then a usurper to a birthright they have no right to.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
April 26th, 2010, 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisServant
I have just as much legitimacy claiming to a descendant of the King of England as the RCC has to being a 'spritual' decendant of Peter. Hearsay is hearsay.
Hardly "hearsay." The ancient Christian belief in Papal Succession extends from Christ and the apostles, through the testimony and teaching of the early Church Fathers who received their beliefs from the apostles and their apppointed successors, throughout the Church's history, right down to our own day.
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
The more I study the Scriptures, the more evidence I find that the Catholic Church is the Biblical Church.
But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. (Matthew 23:8-10)
Slogan/motto:
For as much as it depends on you, live at peace with others.
Reputation:
April 26th, 2010, 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform
Hardly "hearsay." The ancient Christian belief in Papal Succession extends from Christ and the apostles, through the testimony and teaching of the early Church Fathers who received their beliefs from the apostles and their apppointed successors, throughout the Church's history, right down to our own day.
And as has been pointed out before.. your assertions are nothing more then hearsay, as you cannot prove any of your early church fathers were even disciples of the 12.
Anyone can claim to be a disciple of someone, but that does not make it true unless the teacher asserts it. Yet in the area of apostolic succession, the original apostles teachings lay strikingly silent.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
April 26th, 2010, 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisServant
And as has been pointed out before.. your assertions are nothing more then hearsay, as you cannot prove any of your early church fathers were even disciples of the 12.
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Slogan/motto:
Wait On The Holy Spirit to give me a verse.
Reputation:
April 26th, 2010, 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patricius79
I have a chronic illness, so I have lots of time to read the New Testament.
The more I study the Scriptures, the more evidence I find that the Catholic Church is the Biblical Church.
For example, James 2:13, 14, 17, 19, 20, 22, 24, 26 and James 5:20 clearly say that we are not saved by faith alone,
though Paul was quite right in the context of the Judaizing heresy to emphasize--just like the Council of Trent, cf. DS 1548--that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that we can do to earn our justification; and that keeping the Jewish Law can in no wise earn this.
Yet in a different sense we can say that we are justfied by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24), just as Paul testifies even in Romans 2:6-7.
And In Jn 6:4, 51-58 we see the Catholic teaching on the Mass.
In Romans 12:1 Paul says we should offer our bodies--ie the Body of Christ (Rom 12:5, Eph 5:30--as a Living Sacrifice. Yet nobody would say this implies an addition to Christ's grace or a New Sacrifice.
Hebrews confirms this by saying that Christ is a Priest Forever: i.e. His One Sacrifice Never Ends (cf. Heb 7:17, 25)
All of this is supported by Church history, which is the history of Jesus (Eph 1:22-23)
peace in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
Who makes us really free (Jn 8:36)--not just "forensically free"!,
pat
I said
I think you should know this. All your evidence points to Christs church that is true. But before the nicine creed in 325 AD there were five provinces with five Bishops over seeing them. That was the whole of Christianity. And all them together were the catholic church. But after 325 Ad and they started breaking off and forming denominational churches. That was when one Bishop proclaimed himself pope and started the catholic denomination. The definition of the catholic church changed after this. Its no more the universal church but now it is a denominational church.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
April 26th, 2010, 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie
But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. (Matthew 23:8-10)
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Slogan/motto:
Wait On The Holy Spirit to give me a verse.
Reputation:
April 26th, 2010, 08:47 PM
CATHOLIC DENOMINATION
Col 2:8-10
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
Col 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:23
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
1 Cor 1:10
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 Cor 1:12-13
12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Cor 1:9
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Cor 3:4-6
4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
1 Cor 3:7
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
1 Cor 3:10-13
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!"
28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"
John 2:2-4
2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."
4 Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come."
Mark 3:31-35
31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him.
32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You."
33 But He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brothers?"
34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers!
35 "For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother."
John 5:22-23
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Acts 4:12
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor 11:1-4
1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.
Matt 23:9-10
9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 "And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.
2 Cor 3:17
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Cor 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
1 Cor 9:5
5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
1 Cor 7:1-2
1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
II Jn 1:9
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
John 3:17-18
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
1 Tim 4:1-4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Acts 4:11-12
11 "This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
(NKJ)
XXX No Christian should ever call any man on earth Father. No Christian man should ever pray with his head covered. No Christian should ever use vain idles. No Christian should ever pray to anyone other than God through Jesus. Not through mary, not through a pope.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
April 26th, 2010, 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisServant
You tried to answer it... but it still is not true.
I'm perfectly content to allow interested and honest readers make that determination for themselves, which is why I supplied the link.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
April 26th, 2010, 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeaky
CATHOLIC DENOMINATION...
Please go back and quote only those verses from your list that contain the term "Catholic Church." Thanks.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Last edited by Cruciform; April 26th, 2010 at 10:06 PM.
I have a chronic illness, so I have lots of time to read the New Testament.
The more I study the Scriptures, the more evidence I find that the Catholic Church is the Biblical Church.
For example, James 2:13, 14, 17, 19, 20, 22, 24, 26 and James 5:20 clearly say that we are not saved by faith alone,
though Paul was quite right in the context of the Judaizing heresy to emphasize--just like the Council of Trent, cf. DS 1548--that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that we can do to earn our justification; and that keeping the Jewish Law can in no wise earn this.
Yet in a different sense we can say that we are justfied by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24), just as Paul testifies even in Romans 2:6-7.
And In Jn 6:4, 51-58 we see the Catholic teaching on the Mass.
In Romans 12:1 Paul says we should offer our bodies--ie the Body of Christ (Rom 12:5, Eph 5:30--as a Living Sacrifice. Yet nobody would say this implies an addition to Christ's grace or a New Sacrifice.
Hebrews confirms this by saying that Christ is a Priest Forever: i.e. His One Sacrifice Never Ends (cf. Heb 7:17, 25)
All of this is supported by Church history, which is the history of Jesus (Eph 1:22-23)
peace in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
Who makes us really free (Jn 8:36)--not just "forensically free"!,
pat
I suppose you can see anything, anywhere with a closed mind.
Your church history is very much distorted.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
April 26th, 2010, 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr
I suppose you can see anything, anywhere with a closed mind.
What's ironic is that you seem to believe that your mind is any more "open" than a Catholic's. Priceless.
Quote:
Your church history is very much distorted.
...and your proof is...?
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
I think you miss the point. I don't believe Jesus was referring to the words themselves, but rather to what those words represented. The emphasis was on the fact that his followers are brethren, not hierarchical. Sure there are pastors and teachers, not to be lords over God's heritage, but to be examples to the flock.
We have seen the example set by many of the pastors and teachers in your group. No thanks.
April 26th, 2010, 04:00 PM
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