[Silent Hunter]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

First, you are a non Christian so why should you understand prayer.

I used to believe in the invisible sky spirit but I gave it up for Lent.

Please explain how being a “non Christian” prevents me from understanding prayer. Almost all religions engage in some sort of ritual “prayer.” Are you saying they don’t understand prayer because they are not Christian? Why do ONLY Christians understand prayer?

Second, people can get to the same destination even if they are told to get to the back of the bus.

LOL. This is a straw man analogy (TH lives in AL btw). In this case EVERYONE is being “discriminated” against, not just Christians. No one is allowed to pray on the SC steps. If it were that ONLY Christians were not permitted to pray on the SC steps then even I would be appalled but this is NOT what happened (is happening).

Proximity does not increase the effectiveness of prayer. If they want to pray they could do it on the bus but not on the SC steps.

This reply is normal for one that cannot distinguish Christianity from Christendom.

Perhaps you will enlighten me. What is the difference between Christianity and Christendom? I think you’re going to find you are making a distinction without a difference.

How were these people “attacked” exactly? Every one of these people was free to practice their religion anywhere they wanted except on the steps of the SC (or anywhere else not allowed by LAW).

Make a note: The ADF claims x isn't true. We’ll have to wait until the ADF makes a LEGAL claim first won’t we. According to your own admittance the teacher intended to violate the law. You should refer yourself to posts 157 and 159 where you exposed yourself as a hypocrite. Apparently the intent was to break the law so as to claim discrimination against Christianity yet at the same time knowing the law was in no way discriminatory against any one religious group (least of all Christianity) so they could make a deceitful charge based on the mere appearance of being unfairly prejudiced.

As is with most radical fundamentalist Christians you’d rather avoid questions that expose your hypocrisy. Again I ask, “How were these people attacked exactly?”

Are you now admitting they INTENDED to defy the law? Thanks for clearing that up. Actually, #3 is the correct answer.

Mrs. Weirdo had other methods of recourse. I don’t doubt she took the course she did because it presented the greatest opportunity for hype in the media.

You might be able to sell the bull you’re peddling from the pulpit but it’s unlikely to be bought by a judge in a court of law. We’ll see.

TH exposed this fallacy earlier. The point I am making and which you totally fail to understand is if a provision is made to allow Christians to pray the same allowance must be made for all religions not just Christians. It’s not about restricting Christianity it’s about ensuring all religions are treated EQUALLY.

You’re still missing the point. Not all religions practice prayer in the same nondescript manner as Christians generally do. Muslims do not hold hands and bow their heads but instead have a more elaborate prayer ritual (which is the reason I mentioned prayer rugs on the SC steps in an earlier post).

You see if the law is modified in such a way as to allow Christians to pray in a way common to most Christian denominations (holding hands and/or bowing heads) it must be modified to allow all religions to pray in a way acceptable to each religious sect’s common practice (which is the reason I mentioned Hindus and American Indians among others). The range of religions in the world and their prayer rituals is impossibly large and it would be a herculean task to accommodate them all and, according to the Constitution, NOT ONE could be excluded if the prayer is performed on government property.

You’ve been exposed as a hypocrite my friend. Their actions consisted of bowing heads and reciting a prayer (other religious rituals (actions) vary) and was clearly a violation of the law.

Why not that too; you’ve already exposed their hypocritical contempt for the law.

But you’re right; perspective is the key element in this case. The people were perceived to be doing something against the law and were asked to not do it. No one was jailed or beaten with whips. They were simply asked to not pray on the steps of the SC and were free to go somewhere else to pray. Basically, no harm . . . no foul . . . except in the eyes of Christian activists like yourself.

Horse manure packaged in a pretty package is still horse manure. When has a state or federal government NOT allowed the free expression of ANY religion? The teacher and her school group were/are ABSOLUTELY free to practice their religion’s rituals but NOT on the steps of the SC (or anywhere else not allowed by law).

What prevented Mrs. Rigo from praying somewhere else? Was it the “wall of separation" between church and state perhaps?

Why do fundamentalists have the need to answer a question with a question?

The LAW prevents Mrs. Wacko from “remaining on the steps (of the SC) and offering a prayer of support” for ANYONE or ANYTHING. Are you mentally challenged?

Now answer my question: What prevented Mrs. Rigo from praying somewhere else?

Why don’t you answer the questions in your own words instead of quote mining in the hope you are luckily enough to choose one fitting to the occasion?

. . . and both of you have failed miserably.

[Silent Hunter]

Originally Posted by Nineveh

In the interest of offering you a bit more information, check out my Blog. Also, I would offer that you consider a bit more about T. Jefferson and who he was actually arguing against. I believe he used the term "platonists", should you care to know more, please hit the "BR X" link in my signature.

I’m quite familiar with Thomas Jefferson; he was one of the characters on “The Jeffersons” right? Wife’s name was Louise? Perhaps his first name was George; I’m not too good at old TV sitcoms. At best T. Jefferson was a deist. Thanks for the link.

[Granite]

Originally Posted by Nineveh

Silent Hunter,

In the interest of offering you a bit more information, check out my Blog. Also, I would offer that you consider a bit more about T. Jefferson and who he was actually arguing against. I believe he used the term "platonists", should you care to know more, please hit the "BR X" link in my signature.

Trying to make Jefferson out to be an orthodox Christian is an exercise in futility. To put it mildly.

[Nick_A]

SH

As a non Christian I don't see why you would bother with the different meanings of prayer and this wouldn't be the place to do it. But as St. Simeon for an example would describe three methods of prayer it means that there is a scale of quality that is meaningful for me but meaningless to you.

The primary reason that the function of religion is no longer understood as a norm in society is because of the collective loss of the recognition of objective quality in preference to creating concepts of subjective quality.

Christianity is a perennial tradition which means it always was.
Anything that is objectively true, always was. The essence of Christianity entered into the world from a conscious source. It began being called Christianity because Jesus actualized it. This is common knowledge. For example:

To conclude, the great Christian theologian, Saint Augustine in his Retractiones, wrote “The very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting from the inception of the human race until the coming of Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion, which was already in existence, began to be called Christian.”

The devolution of Christianity into Christendom consists of the myriad of man made interpretations of Christianity normal for the lack of conscious understanding.

Needless to say we see the question of Mrs. Rigo's class differently. I view it as an attack because their rights were violated as typical for racial or religious bigotry. You say no. If the police apologize and the matter is dropped, it proves she was right. If it goes to court, we will have to wait a while to see how it turns out.

You’re still missing the point. Not all religions practice prayer in the same nondescript manner as Christians generally do. Muslims do not hold hands and bow their heads but instead have a more elaborate prayer ritual (which is the reason I mentioned prayer rugs on the SC steps in an earlier post).

The purpose of the law is to prevent attention getting demonstrations. There is no reason for Muslims to hold a noon prayer on the court steps. However if visiting the court some Muslims say "May Allah provide wisdom for the court and protect its justices, it is no problem

Mrs. Rigo didn't begin mass and no one was on a soapbox.. The class merely urged support for the mission of the court and the Justices.

Horse manure packaged in a pretty package is still horse manure. When has a state or federal government NOT allowed the free expression of ANY religion? The teacher and her school group were/are ABSOLUTELY free to practice their religion’s rituals but NOT on the steps of the SC (or anywhere else not allowed by law).

The LAW prevents Mrs. Wacko from “remaining on the steps (of the SC) and offering a prayer of support” for ANYONE or ANYTHING. Are you mentally challenged?

Wrong!!! The day comes when women and children cannot offer support for the Court on the steps of the Court, the party is over and America is officially no more.

and both of you have failed miserably.

Sez you

[Silent Hunter]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

As a non Christian I don't see why you would bother with the different meanings of prayer and this wouldn't be the place to do it. But as St. Simeon for an example would describe three methods of prayer it means that there is a scale of quality that is meaningful for me but meaningless to you.

The primary reason that the function of religion is no longer understood as a norm in society is because of the collective loss of the recognition of objective quality in preference to creating concepts of subjective quality.

How very new age of you.

Christianity is a perennial tradition which means it always was.

Always was what; superstitious nonsense?

Anything that is objectively true, always was. The essence of Christianity entered into the world from a conscious source.

If Christianity is based on objective truth you should be able to succeed in providing the objective evidence for it where so many before you have failed.

It began being called Christianity because Jesus actualized it. This is common knowledge.

No it’s not.

For example:

To conclude, the great Christian theologian, Saint Augustine in his Retractiones, wrote “The very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting from the inception of the human race until the coming of Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion, which was already in existence, began to be called Christian.”

That Saint Augustine was way ahead of his time in new age thought don’t you think?

The devolution of Christianity into Christendom consists of the myriad of man made interpretations of Christianity normal for the lack of conscious understanding.

Let’s pray you have posited no personal interpretations of Christianity traceable to you (not that you have ever had an original thought).

Needless to say we see the question of Mrs. Rigo's class differently. I view it as an attack because their rights were violated as typical for racial or religious bigotry. You say no. If the police apologize and the matter is dropped, it proves she was right. If it goes to court, we will have to wait a while to see how it turns out.

This is pure bigoted opinion on your part.

Mrs. Spazmo’s rights were not violated in any way. She and her class were never EVER prevented from praying at an appropriate location. As I pointed out before, the freedoms of speech and religion (among other “freedoms”) are not unrestricted. Courts have consistently held government (civic) property cannot be used as a location for religious rituals or displays.

You’re still missing the point. Not all religions practice prayer in the same nondescript manner as Christians generally do. Muslims do not hold hands and bow their heads but instead have a more elaborate prayer ritual (which is the reason I mentioned prayer rugs on the SC steps in an earlier post).

Here you go again interpreting law. After the thrashing you received from TH (on this very point) one would think you would know better by now.

There is no reason for Muslims to hold a noon prayer on the court steps.

Precisely! And exactly the reason Mrs. Retardo shouldn’t be saying prayers on the SC steps with her class.

Game! Set! Match!

However if visiting the court some Muslims say "May Allah provide wisdom for the court and protect its justices, it is no problem.

You seem to be watering down your argument. However, this too would be against the letter of the law as it exists if the devotee attracted attention with his prayer.

Mrs. Rigo didn't begin mass and no one was on a soapbox.. The class merely urged support for the mission of the court and the Justices.

And I see, again, you have failed to answer the most basic and fundamental of questions:

What prevented Mrs. Rigo (and her class) from saying these prayers somewhere else?

Horse manure packaged in a pretty package is still horse manure. When has a state or federal government NOT allowed the free expression of ANY religion? The teacher and her school group were/are ABSOLUTELY free to practice their religion’s rituals but NOT on the steps of the SC (or anywhere else not allowed by law).

The LAW prevents Mrs. Wacko from “remaining on the steps (of the SC) and offering a prayer of support” for ANYONE or ANYTHING. Are you mentally challenged?

Totally ridiculous. As I have said repeatedly, proximity does not increase (or decrease) the effectiveness of prayer. And as you have said, “There is no reason for Muslims (and by extension Christians, SH) to hold a noon prayer (or prayer at any hour, SH) on the court steps.”

and both of you have failed miserably.

Says everyone who has engaged you on this thread . . . and elsewhere on the site (there's a traceable reason you have no friends and embarrassingly little reputation, especially for a Christian).

[Nick_A]

SH

You are a non Christian so why should you care about Christianity? I'm not an atheist so don't bother arguing atheism. I did for a while and tried to start some conversations on Richard Dawkins's site. I was hoping to find some I could communicate privately with. I learned that they reply as a pack to impress each other rather than seriously considering an issue. I asked for example how the atheist defines "NOW." What is NOW? Is it only a subjective concept or does it objectively exist? The question is easier for me from a panentheist perspective but difficult for an atheist. Instead of pondering, all that happens is the same righteous indignation often posted here because it is a hard question.

If that is what people want, that's OK. I just don't see the sense of arguing something I don't care about. I'm not concerned with denying as much as affirming. You deny with great passion but affirm nothing in relation to objective human meaning and purpose.

What prevented Mrs. Rigo (and her class) from saying these prayers somewhere else?

Nothing. There is also no reason why a black person shouldn't ride in the back of a bus.

Says everyone who has engaged you on this thread . . . and elsewhere on the site (there's a traceable reason you have no friends and embarrassingly little reputation, especially for a Christian).

If it were not the case I would be doing something wrong.

[Town Heretic]

Does anyone else get the feeling that N/A is determined to have the last possible post...just waiting until the rest of us get tired and go for coffee or Madden 11 comes out?

The demo for that one, by the way, isn't overwhelming.

[Silent Hunter]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

You are a non Christian so why should you care about Christianity?

Why should YOU care what I decide to discuss with anyone?

I'm not an atheist so don't bother arguing atheism.

That’s a pretty good idea. Considering your track record on TOL you should probably give up arguing Christianity, theism, and philosophy as well.

I did for a while and tried to start some conversations on Richard Dawkins's site. I was hoping to find some I could communicate privately with. I learned that they reply as a pack to impress each other rather than seriously considering an issue.

LOL. Welcome to my world on TOL.

Seriously, you’ve done no better here. Once I (we) exposed your hopelessly contradictory position you were doomed. When you said, “There is no reason for Muslims to hold a noon prayer on the court steps,” you sealed your fate because if there is no reason for Muslims to pray on the SC steps there is no reason for Christians to pray there either. Additionally, when you admitted there was nothing preventing the teacher and her class from praying somewhere else (see below) you finished nailing your own coffin shut.

I asked for example how the atheist defines "NOW." What is NOW? Is it only a subjective concept or does it objectively exist? The question is easier for me from a panentheist perspective but difficult for an atheist. Instead of pondering, all that happens is the same righteous indignation often posted here because it is a hard question.

There is a very good reason for the response you received; it’s a stupid question (most philosophy deals with stupid questions in my opinion).

If that is what people want, that's OK. I just don't see the sense of arguing something I don't care about.

Duh.

I'm not concerned with denying as much as affirming. You deny with great passion but affirm nothing in relation to objective human meaning and purpose.

There is no such thing as “objective human meaning and purpose” but if you start a thread I’m sure you’ll get a few of the lesser developed minds to discuss it with you.

What prevented Mrs. Rigo (and her class) from saying these prayers somewhere else?

Exactly! Then there is no reason for her to insist on praying on the SC steps is there (see above)?

There is also no reason why a black person shouldn't ride in the back of a bus.

This will sound cliché but you’re comparing apples to oranges . . . unless the person is praying on a government vehicle . . . but I’m willing to cut the guy some slack if the bus is falling over a 5000’ cliff (not that prayer is going to stop the bus from falling before it hits the ground).

Says everyone who has engaged you on this thread . . . and elsewhere on the site (there's a traceable reason you have no friends and embarrassingly little reputation, especially for a Christian).

LOL. It’s good to know that you recognize your limitations. "A man's got to know his limitations." - Harry Callahan

[Nick_A]

SH

Seriously, you’ve done no better here. Once I (we) exposed your hopelessly contradictory position you were doomed. When you said, “There is no reason for Muslims to hold a noon prayer on the court steps,” you sealed your fate because if there is no reason for Muslims to pray on the SC steps there is no reason for Christians to pray there either. Additionally, when you admitted there was nothing preventing the teacher and her class from praying somewhere else (see below) you finished nailing your own coffin shut.

You haven't exposed anything but your inability to grasp a simple issue.

If the Muslims want to offer a prayer for the well being of the Court as these Christian kids did there is nothing wrong and perfectly normal for a visit to the Court.

If however Mrs. Rigo wants to conduct 10:00 AM mass on the steps or if the Muslims want to conduct the noon day prayer, then the steps are not the place. Simple enough.

There is a very good reason for the response you received; it’s a stupid question (most philosophy deals with stupid questions in my opinion).

It is a stupid question for an atheist but completely logical for a spiritual person. The obvious question arising for any person with a mind and a heart is to ask what purpose this enormous construction called our universe serves. There is a lot going on but what is it doing and why? What is the place of Man within this purpose.

For the atheist this is absurd yet for a person who is able to both think and feel, it is perfectly obvious since it is absurd to believe that the universe has no meaning or purpose. If it doesn't, why does continue to exist? To say it is a giant accident is just silly especially since the laws that govern it are logical.

That is where Simone is right to caution about the negative emotions that sustain skepticism. They deny impartial thought.

There is no such thing as “objective human meaning and purpose” but if you start a thread I’m sure you’ll get a few of the lesser developed minds to discuss it with you.

"The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection." Einstein

Simone Weil says the same. Now if Simone Weil and Albert Einstein agree on the obvious that there is an intelligence behind it all, then there must be meaning and purpose since without them, intelligence is meaningless.

Atheists want to ridicule and I consider the minds of such brilliant people and consider that perhaps the Richard Dawkins crew is missing something.

If the atheists are missing something perhaps what is being missed is exactly what is supported through the children's prayers on the Court steps.

This will sound cliché but you’re comparing apples to oranges . . . unless the person is praying on a government vehicle . . . but I’m willing to cut the guy some slack if the bus is falling over a 5000’ cliff (not that prayer is going to stop the bus from falling before it hits the ground).

All this means is that you support selective expressions of bigotry. Most are like this which is why the term "reverse racism" is used without batting an eye.

Reverse racism requires selective bigotry to have meaning. Regardless if kids are being kicked off the steps for their religion or if people are pushed to the back of the bus because of pigment, it is all bigotry.

LOL. It’s good to know that you recognize your limitations. "A man's got to know his limitations." - Harry Callahan

"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform." - Mark Twain

[Town Heretic]

"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform." - Mark Twain

But what if everyone felt that way about it.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Town Heretic

But what if everyone felt that way about it.

The Great Beast would lose its power over us.

[Town Heretic]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

The Great Beast would lose its power over us.

You just can't see it when it's right in front of you...okay, I'll explain why your quote was funny. If everyone felt that way then everyone would "reform" and find themselves right back where they started, with a need to reform ad infinitum.

That's Latin for "you need to get out more."

[Memento Mori]

Originally Posted by Town Heretic

Does anyone else get the feeling that N/A is determined to have the last possible post...just waiting until the rest of us to get tired and go for coffee or Madden 11 comes out?

The demo for that one, by the way, isn't overwhelming.

Yes but it's just five dollars down to preorder it at GameStop which comes off the price and reserves you a copy. Included with the preorder are 20,000 in game coins.

... Yes, I work for GameStop...

And that does seem that to be N/A's desire for the final post. Perhaps Europe can perform a song for him...

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Town Heretic

You just can't see it when it's right in front of you...okay, I'll explain why your quote was funny. If everyone felt that way then everyone would "reform" and find themselves right back where they started, with a need to reform ad infinitum.

That's Latin for "you need to get out more."

If everyone felt on the side of the majority they would all realize they were the "wretched man." The collective conscious recognition of our nothingness would fuel the spiritual urge to become ourselves. Once this happens the Great Beast which governs through imagination would lose its power.

But that would require real "education" which we are a long way from.

[Town Heretic]

Originally Posted by Memento Mori

Yes but it's just five dollars down to preorder it at GameStop which comes off the price and reserves you a copy. Included with the preorder are 20,000 in game coins.

... Yes, I work for GameStop...

I'll be at a local GS at midnight on...is it Tuesday or Monday? Oh, and sorry about the extra preposition, since removed.

And that does seem that to be N/A's desire for the final post. Perhaps Europe can perform a song for him...

And laughing is that much sweeter realizing how little of it he must do.