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The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53 -
February 21st, 2011, 02:06 PM
The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53
There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.
Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!
The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.
The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.
Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His annointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben
There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.
Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!
The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.
The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.
Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His annointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben
I agree that Isaiah 53 refers to Israel. [Jacob]
Isaiah 53 personifies the suffering servant as the Bible does in many places.
Hosea 11:1 (New American Standard Bible)
When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.
There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.
Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!
The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.
The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.
Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His annointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben
I agree with you in part. I also beleive Jeremiah 18, where he says the kingdom is conditional. But he had to die to settle the sin issue. He was resurected as set for in Ezekiel 37, to restore Israel and have them no longer be divided.
What is your take on Psalm 22, in regards to the crucifixion as detailed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Especially the part where he cried out "My God My God, why have you forsaken me?" If you don't believe that happened, then there is nothing else for us to discuss. Do you think that happened? Do you think it happened and it is a hoax? Do you think it didn't happen, and you have no comment on Psalm 22? For Ben, or anybody that looks for their day of restoration.
There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.
Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!
The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.
The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.
Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His annointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben
My poor confused Jewish boy... you speak as a child!
Messiah - Most of us are more familiar with the Greek translation of this word, which is "Christos" or "Christ" in English. People have made this title of Jesus into Jesus’ surname. But it is not his name, it is his title. Jesus Christ means Jesus the Christ (Messiah). When someone says that we are Christians, they are saying that we are Messianist, or followers of the Messiah. The definition of Messiah has been practically lost to non-jews. A proper understanding of this title is critical if we are ever going to fully understand who Jesus is.
Messiah - Hebrew word signifying "one who has been anointed." The anointed agent of Yahweh. The kings of Israel were anointed with oil in the name of God, which symbolized his investiture with the Spirit of God. The term Messiah was later used to designate a "future king," an expected royal leader from the line of David who would restore the kingdom to Israel. A king who would make all things new, consecrated as Yahweh’s vicegerent in Israel. This son of David, who was expected by the Jewish nation, was the Messiah par excellence, a term that has been rendered in Greek by Christos (NABD & The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 2, pg 344 (ZEB)) .
That the Messiah is supposed to be a king is a well-known fact by anyone who has studied the Bible in depth. Because it was customary to anoint kings, the phrase "The LORD’s anointed" became a synonym for "king" (ZEB, vol.1, pg. 171). This fact can be verified by many verses. Even on the cross the inscription read, "The king of the Jews" (Mark 15:26). I will cover a few verses and then list some more for your own study:
Mark 15:32: "Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross."
John 1:40 & 49: "We have found the Messiah…Rabbi, you are the Son of God; the king of Israel."
Luke 19:38: "Blessed is the king (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (YHWH).
Other verses: Jeremiah 23:5, Daniel 7:13, Psalms 2:6, Zechariah 9:9, Acts 17:7, 2 Timothy 4:1. There are many more. The Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg.200 says:
"If God’s purpose is not to be defeated, the true Messiah = King as God’s authentic Servant is the only answer. In Heb. Categories the remedy is centered upon a person and not upon an abstract doctrine or an ideal system. There can be no Messianic kingdom without God’s anointed King."
As we can see, the Messiah is an actual king of Israel, the ideal king of Israel. He is a man who is anointed by God’s spirit. The Messiah is able to perform mighty signs because God has anointed him with His Spirit, not because he is God. It is God working through Jesus. These three verses explain this point better than I ever could:
Acts 10:38: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."
Acts 2:22: "Jesus of Nazareth was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."
Matthew 12:18: "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him."
All the Old Testament Messianic prophecies speak of a man anointed by God’s Spirit. None of them mention that the Messiah is supposed to be God. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol.4 pg.201 states of the Messiah:
"But at all times he is the one who acts in the power and under the guidance of the God of Israel."
The Jews today (because they failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah) are still waiting for the Messiah to come. But if you ask a rabbi who the Messiah is supposed to be (as I did), he will tell you what all these sources have said, that he will be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. We must always remember that the Messiah is the ideal anointed king of Israel who will reign in God’s kingdom to come, the Messianic kingdom.
The confusion lies in that God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus.
There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.
Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!
The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.
The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.
Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His annointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben
Is it possiable my friend that Israel is a "Spiritual" nation that God holds close to his heart? Could it be his true church that followes his every wish and commandment?
Something to ponder over.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
My poor confused Jewish boy... you speak as a child!
Messiah - Most of us are more familiar with the Greek translation of this word, which is "Christos" or "Christ" in English. People have made this title of Jesus into Jesus’ surname. But it is not his name, it is his title. Jesus Christ means Jesus the Christ (Messiah). When someone says that we are Christians, they are saying that we are Messianist, or followers of the Messiah. The definition of Messiah has been practically lost to non-jews. A proper understanding of this title is critical if we are ever going to fully understand who Jesus is.
Messiah - Hebrew word signifying "one who has been anointed." The anointed agent of Yahweh. The kings of Israel were anointed with oil in the name of God, which symbolized his investiture with the Spirit of God. The term Messiah was later used to designate a "future king," an expected royal leader from the line of David who would restore the kingdom to Israel. A king who would make all things new, consecrated as Yahweh’s vicegerent in Israel. This son of David, who was expected by the Jewish nation, was the Messiah par excellence, a term that has been rendered in Greek by Christos (NABD & The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 2, pg 344 (ZEB)) .
That the Messiah is supposed to be a king is a well-known fact by anyone who has studied the Bible in depth. Because it was customary to anoint kings, the phrase "The LORD’s anointed" became a synonym for "king" (ZEB, vol.1, pg. 171). This fact can be verified by many verses. Even on the cross the inscription read, "The king of the Jews" (Mark 15:26). I will cover a few verses and then list some more for your own study:
Mark 15:32: "Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross."
John 1:40 & 49: "We have found the Messiah…Rabbi, you are the Son of God; the king of Israel."
Luke 19:38: "Blessed is the king (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (YHWH).
Other verses: Jeremiah 23:5, Daniel 7:13, Psalms 2:6, Zechariah 9:9, Acts 17:7, 2 Timothy 4:1. There are many more. The Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg.200 says:
"If God’s purpose is not to be defeated, the true Messiah = King as God’s authentic Servant is the only answer. In Heb. Categories the remedy is centered upon a person and not upon an abstract doctrine or an ideal system. There can be no Messianic kingdom without God’s anointed King."
As we can see, the Messiah is an actual king of Israel, the ideal king of Israel. He is a man who is anointed by God’s spirit. The Messiah is able to perform mighty signs because God has anointed him with His Spirit, not because he is God. It is God working through Jesus. These three verses explain this point better than I ever could:
Acts 10:38: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."
Acts 2:22: "Jesus of Nazareth was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."
Matthew 12:18: "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him."
All the Old Testament Messianic prophecies speak of a man anointed by God’s Spirit. None of them mention that the Messiah is supposed to be God. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol.4 pg.201 states of the Messiah:
"But at all times he is the one who acts in the power and under the guidance of the God of Israel."
The Jews today (because they failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah) are still waiting for the Messiah to come. But if you ask a rabbi who the Messiah is supposed to be (as I did), he will tell you what all these sources have said, that he will be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. We must always remember that the Messiah is the ideal anointed king of Israel who will reign in God’s kingdom to come, the Messianic kingdom.
The confusion lies in that God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus.
Paul
If only Jesus had fulfilled the legitimate Messianic Scriptures of the Hebrew Scriptures he might be believable.
If only Jesus had fulfilled the legitimate Messianic Scriptures of the Hebrew Scriptures he might be believable.
Really?
According to ancient literature, Jesus was not the only rabbi at his day to heal the sick and performed miracles. Onias, also known as "Honi, the circle drawer," was famous for warning the people to cover their goods before he prayed for rain. He would draw a circle around himself and refuse to leave until God answers prayer. Honi lived in the first century and has been described as being "experienced in miracles."
Another first century Rabbi, Hanina Ben Dose, is remembered for the many miracles he performed, especially for healing the sick. Early records indicate that it was not uncommon for miracles, such as healing. Even the casting out demons was not unusual. Jesus referred to this when he said to the Pharisees, "If I buy Beelzrbub cast out devils, whom do your children [students] cast them out?" (Matthew 12:27)
Arnold Fruchtenbaum , a Jewish Christian scholar in his book Messianic Miracles p.4. Points out that there were four major miracles that the rabbis could not perform, which Jesus used to demonstrate his Messiahship. According to Fruchtenbaum, Matthew 15:30 summarizes what he calls the general miracles at that time: healing the lame, the crippled, the blind, and the dumb. Even today, in Israel, both Jews and Arabs use the phrase "When Messiah comes, he will do that." In other words, the Messiah will do what no ordinary man can do. This was the attitude of the first century Jews had towards the 4 messianic miracles that no one else could perform.
When John disciples asked Jesus, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" Jesus replied by naming some miracles that were not being done in the first century (Matthew 11:3 -5). For example, the cleansing of lepers and the raising of the dead were not common in that day. From the time of the completion of the Mosaic Law, there are no records of any Jewish persons who had been cleansed of leprosy. Miriam, the sister of Moses, was healed before the completion of the Law. Naaman, who was also healed, was a Gentile. The Jews considered leprosy to be "the finger of God" or "the stroke," and anyone afflicted by it had to be cleansed, as well as healed.
This was such a significant issue that Leviticus 13 and 14 give detailed instructions as to what must be done when a healing did occur. First, the priest had to establish that the person had actually been a leper. Second, he had to establish that the person had really been healed. Third, he had to establish who had done the healing. Because note you have been healed of leprosy in such a long time, the Jews believed that an ordinary rabbi could not do such a miracle. Only Messiah, when he came, would be able to do it. This is borne out at Luke 4:27, where the Bible notes that there were many lepers in Israel as far back as Elisha, but none were healed except Naaman.
The action really began with Jesus healed the leper and told them to take the required offering to the priests, in fulfillment of the Levitical Law. The priest was then required by the law to verify these persons actually been lepers, that they had actually been healed, and then, to investigate how or by whom this healing had been done. The practice of the Sanhedrin was to send a delegation to investigate many serious Messianic candidates. This investigation involves two steps: the first was to simply observe. If there was convincing evidence, they proceeded to interrogate.
We can see this first step in Luke 5:17 and Mark 2:5-7, where the scribes and Pharisees who had come from Jerusalem simply sat and observe Jesus come reasoning in their hearts. It was after the healing of the lepers had been verified that the Sanhedrin began to take Jesus seriously. Then, when she began to do other uncommon miracles, they went to the second stage and began interrogating him.
The second messianic miracle Jesus did was the casting out of a demon of dumbness (see Matthew 12:22). Although Matthew 12:27 tells us that other rabbis were able to cast out demons, history tells us that they used a Pharisaic formula which required the exorcist to first ask the demon his name. They then use the demon's name to cast it out. Even Jesus use this technique in Mark 5:9. But using this methodology that the rabbi powerless against demons of dumbness since they could not give their name. It was this kind of demon that the disciples could not cast out in Mark 9:17-18. It was when Jesus began doing miracles that no one else could do that the people started asking, "Is not this the son of David [the Messiah]?" (Matthew 12:23).
The third Messianic miracle was the raising of the dead. Although there were examples of people dying and being brought back to life in the Old Testament, the case of Lazarus was an exception to the norm. John 11:39 tells us that Lazarus had been dead already for four days. The Pharisees believed that a deceased person’s spirit hovered over his body for three days, and during that time there remained the possibility of resuscitation. This may be why Jesus intentionally waited until the fourth day to do the miracle. The resurrection of Lazarus left the rulers of the Jews with no alternative but to admit that he was, in fact, the Messiah of Israel. He calls the callous hearts of many could not accept this, however, it was from that time forth that they looked for a way to have Jesus of Nazareth killed (John 11:53).
It was not the Pharisees so much who were threatened by Jesus’ demonstration of his Messiahship; it was the Sadducees who ran the Temple and profited from it. Their motive for wanting dead are revealed in John 11:48: "If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place [Temple] and our nation".
Perhaps you should pray that Ancient Prayer... From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, From the laziness that is content with half-truths, From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, Oh God of Truth, deliver us.
I agree that Isaiah 53 refers to Israel. [Jacob]
Isaiah 53 personifies the suffering servant as the Bible does in many places.
Hosea 11:1 (New American Standard Bible)
When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.
Shalom Nick, there is nothing more embarrassing than to see and read the evidence of Replacement Theology in Hosea 11:1. The Prophet identifies God's Son by name, as Israel, when he was called from Egypt thtough the Exodus, and the guy who wrote the gospel named Matthew plagiarized the text and attributed it to Jesus when he was never in Egypt. Luke himself contradicts him. Only blind faith makes one believe in such a Hellenistic Bible.
Is it possiable my friend that Israel is a "Spiritual" nation that God holds close to his heart? Could it be his true church that followes his every wish and commandment?
Something to ponder over.
Peace
There is a way to find out that Israel is indeed a "Spiritual" nation that God holds close to His heart. Visit us in Israel and you will be surprised
of so much spirituality and zeal for the Word of God. It couldn't be the Church which has persecuted God's People throughout the History
of Israel through pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisitions, and last but not least, the Holocaust of about six million Jews.
According to ancient literature, Jesus was not the only rabbi at his day to heal the sick and performed miracles. Onias, also known as "Honi, the circle drawer," was famous for warning the people to cover their goods before he prayed for rain. He would draw a circle around himself and refuse to leave until God answers prayer. Honi lived in the first century and has been described as being "experienced in miracles."
Another first century Rabbi, Hanina Ben Dose, is remembered for the many miracles he performed, especially for healing the sick. Early records indicate that it was not uncommon for miracles, such as healing. Even the casting out demons was not unusual. Jesus referred to this when he said to the Pharisees, "If I buy Beelzrbub cast out devils, whom do your children [students] cast them out?" (Matthew 12:27)
Arnold Fruchtenbaum , a Jewish Christian scholar in his book Messianic Miracles p.4. Points out that there were four major miracles that the rabbis could not perform, which Jesus used to demonstrate his Messiahship. According to Fruchtenbaum, Matthew 15:30 summarizes what he calls the general miracles at that time: healing the lame, the crippled, the blind, and the dumb. Even today, in Israel, both Jews and Arabs use the phrase "When Messiah comes, he will do that." In other words, the Messiah will do what no ordinary man can do. This was the attitude of the first century Jews had towards the 4 messianic miracles that no one else could perform.
When John disciples asked Jesus, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" Jesus replied by naming some miracles that were not being done in the first century (Matthew 11:3 -5). For example, the cleansing of lepers and the raising of the dead were not common in that day. From the time of the completion of the Mosaic Law, there are no records of any Jewish persons who had been cleansed of leprosy. Miriam, the sister of Moses, was healed before the completion of the Law. Naaman, who was also healed, was a Gentile. The Jews considered leprosy to be "the finger of God" or "the stroke," and anyone afflicted by it had to be cleansed, as well as healed.
This was such a significant issue that Leviticus 13 and 14 give detailed instructions as to what must be done when a healing did occur. First, the priest had to establish that the person had actually been a leper. Second, he had to establish that the person had really been healed. Third, he had to establish who had done the healing. Because note you have been healed of leprosy in such a long time, the Jews believed that an ordinary rabbi could not do such a miracle. Only Messiah, when he came, would be able to do it. This is borne out at Luke 4:27, where the Bible notes that there were many lepers in Israel as far back as Elisha, but none were healed except Naaman.
The action really began with Jesus healed the leper and told them to take the required offering to the priests, in fulfillment of the Levitical Law. The priest was then required by the law to verify these persons actually been lepers, that they had actually been healed, and then, to investigate how or by whom this healing had been done. The practice of the Sanhedrin was to send a delegation to investigate many serious Messianic candidates. This investigation involves two steps: the first was to simply observe. If there was convincing evidence, they proceeded to interrogate.
We can see this first step in Luke 5:17 and Mark 2:5-7, where the scribes and Pharisees who had come from Jerusalem simply sat and observe Jesus come reasoning in their hearts. It was after the healing of the lepers had been verified that the Sanhedrin began to take Jesus seriously. Then, when she began to do other uncommon miracles, they went to the second stage and began interrogating him.
The second messianic miracle Jesus did was the casting out of a demon of dumbness (see Matthew 12:22). Although Matthew 12:27 tells us that other rabbis were able to cast out demons, history tells us that they used a Pharisaic formula which required the exorcist to first ask the demon his name. They then use the demon's name to cast it out. Even Jesus use this technique in Mark 5:9. But using this methodology that the rabbi powerless against demons of dumbness since they could not give their name. It was this kind of demon that the disciples could not cast out in Mark 9:17-18. It was when Jesus began doing miracles that no one else could do that the people started asking, "Is not this the son of David [the Messiah]?" (Matthew 12:23).
The third Messianic miracle was the raising of the dead. Although there were examples of people dying and being brought back to life in the Old Testament, the case of Lazarus was an exception to the norm. John 11:39 tells us that Lazarus had been dead already for four days. The Pharisees believed that a deceased person’s spirit hovered over his body for three days, and during that time there remained the possibility of resuscitation. This may be why Jesus intentionally waited until the fourth day to do the miracle. The resurrection of Lazarus left the rulers of the Jews with no alternative but to admit that he was, in fact, the Messiah of Israel. He calls the callous hearts of many could not accept this, however, it was from that time forth that they looked for a way to have Jesus of Nazareth killed (John 11:53).
It was not the Pharisees so much who were threatened by Jesus’ demonstration of his Messiahship; it was the Sadducees who ran the Temple and profited from it. Their motive for wanting dead are revealed in John 11:48: "If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place [Temple] and our nation".
Perhaps you should pray that Ancient Prayer... From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, From the laziness that is content with half-truths, From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, Oh God of Truth, deliver us.
Paul
IMO Jesus did not perfom any miracles.
I have proof from the Scriptures.
The miracles were added to the story by the telling and retelling of the Jesus story before the gospels were written.
My poor confused Jewish boy... you speak as a child!
Messiah - Most of us are more familiar with the Greek translation of this word, which is "Christos" or "Christ" in English. People have made this title of Jesus into Jesus’ surname. But it is not his name, it is his title. Jesus Christ means Jesus the Christ (Messiah). When someone says that we are Christians, they are saying that we are Messianist, or followers of the Messiah. The definition of Messiah has been practically lost to non-jews. A proper understanding of this title is critical if we are ever going to fully understand who Jesus is.
Messiah - Hebrew word signifying "one who has been anointed." The anointed agent of Yahweh. The kings of Israel were anointed with oil in the name of God, which symbolized his investiture with the Spirit of God. The term Messiah was later used to designate a "future king," an expected royal leader from the line of David who would restore the kingdom to Israel. A king who would make all things new, consecrated as Yahweh’s vicegerent in Israel. This son of David, who was expected by the Jewish nation, was the Messiah par excellence, a term that has been rendered in Greek by Christos (NABD & The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 2, pg 344 (ZEB)) .
That the Messiah is supposed to be a king is a well-known fact by anyone who has studied the Bible in depth. Because it was customary to anoint kings, the phrase "The LORD’s anointed" became a synonym for "king" (ZEB, vol.1, pg. 171). This fact can be verified by many verses. Even on the cross the inscription read, "The king of the Jews" (Mark 15:26). I will cover a few verses and then list some more for your own study:
Mark 15:32: "Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross."
John 1:40 & 49: "We have found the Messiah…Rabbi, you are the Son of God; the king of Israel."
Luke 19:38: "Blessed is the king (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (YHWH).
Other verses: Jeremiah 23:5, Daniel 7:13, Psalms 2:6, Zechariah 9:9, Acts 17:7, 2 Timothy 4:1. There are many more. The Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg.200 says:
"If God’s purpose is not to be defeated, the true Messiah = King as God’s authentic Servant is the only answer. In Heb. Categories the remedy is centered upon a person and not upon an abstract doctrine or an ideal system. There can be no Messianic kingdom without God’s anointed King."
As we can see, the Messiah is an actual king of Israel, the ideal king of Israel. He is a man who is anointed by God’s spirit. The Messiah is able to perform mighty signs because God has anointed him with His Spirit, not because he is God. It is God working through Jesus. These three verses explain this point better than I ever could:
Acts 10:38: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."
Acts 2:22: "Jesus of Nazareth was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."
Matthew 12:18: "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him."
All the Old Testament Messianic prophecies speak of a man anointed by God’s Spirit. None of them mention that the Messiah is supposed to be God. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol.4 pg.201 states of the Messiah:
"But at all times he is the one who acts in the power and under the guidance of the God of Israel."
The Jews today (because they failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah) are still waiting for the Messiah to come. But if you ask a rabbi who the Messiah is supposed to be (as I did), he will tell you what all these sources have said, that he will be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. We must always remember that the Messiah is the ideal anointed king of Israel who will reign in God’s kingdom to come, the Messianic kingdom.
The confusion lies in that God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus.
Paul
Sorry Pierac, but you are totally mistaken about the idea that we have been waiting for the Messiah. Read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew. It says in there that the Lord has gone forth for the salvation of His People; even for the salvation of His Anointed One
HaMoschiach. Interesting to note that the Hebrew text does mention
HaMoschiach as a reference to the People of Israel. I know that there are several kinds of anointed ones, but I am talking about the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 which the Prophet identifies him with Israel by name so that you don't have to assume that he could be an individual.
No sir, the slavish mentality of 430 years in the Egyptian captivity has indeed left a habit hard to die, but it is dying. Most of us no longer think of the Messiah on an individual basis. The Messiah is Collective in Israel the Jewish People, and Prophet Isaiah has cleared this issue for us. Besides, Jeremiah also has made it very clear that as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day and the moon and stars as lights by night, Israel will remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37) The Messiah is not supposed to die because it does not make sense to expect a Messiah in every generation. Our role is to reveal God's glory in the sight of the nations. Read Ezekiel 20:41.
Therefore, I think you are the one who have been dreaming about a Messiah who has been dead for about 2000 years already. And all because your faith does not allow you to think rationally.
I agree with you in part. I also beleive Jeremiah 18, where he says the kingdom is conditional. But he had to die to settle the sin issue. He was resurected as set for in Ezekiel 37, to restore Israel and have them no longer be divided.
What is your take on Psalm 22, in regards to the crucifixion as detailed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Especially the part where he cried out "My God My God, why have you forsaken me?" If you don't believe that happened, then there is nothing else for us to discuss. Do you think that happened? Do you think it happened and it is a hoax? Do you think it didn't happen, and you have no comment on Psalm 22? For Ben, or anybody that looks for their day of restoration.
First of all, Jesus did not have to be crucified to settle the sin issue. According to Jeremiah 31:30, every one shall die for his own iniquity. And second, there is just one way to set the sin issue. That's what Isaiah refers to as to set things right with God, so that our sins, from scarlet red will become as white as snow: To repent of our transgressions and return to obey God's Law. Read Isaiah 1:18,19.
Now, Jesus was not resurrected, as you claim, as set for in Ezekiel 37. Read it more carefully. Your pre-conceive Christian notions are playing trick with your eyes. The verse in Ezekiel 37 you are referring to is 12. That's not bodily resurrection but the return of the Jews from exile to the Land of Israel. Exile for us is as if we have been buried in the graves of the nations. At the end of the exile, God opens
up those graves and brings us back to the Land of Israel. It has nothing to do with bodily resurrection, which, BTW, is against the natural laws and against the Scriptures.
Regarding Psalm 22, it is a Christian gloss to cover up for a gross plagiarism made either by the Hellenistic gospel writers or by the Chruch in the 4th Century when pious forgery was blessed by the Church. The Psalm has nothing to do with Jesus' crucifixion. It describes the struggles of David running away from place to place. From king Saul and from the Gentiles enemies, without hope and supposing that even God Himself had abandoned him.
Slogan/motto:
Wait On The Holy Spirit to give me a verse.
Reputation:
February 22nd, 2011, 08:16 PM
ABOUT THE OLD TESTAMENT
FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
2 Cor 3:14-15
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
Gal 2:21
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
1 Cor 10:1-12
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Rom 13:8
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 4:23-24
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 17:17
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
John 3:34
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
John 3:33
33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
John 3:35-36
35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3-8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Gal 2:19-21
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Gal 3:24-25
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 5:1-5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 4:21
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Rom 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 13:10
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
1 Pet 2:19-21
19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)
xxx Jesus wants everyone who is going to be a christian to understand that the new covenant(testament) is just that new. That you cant go back and keep any part of the old testament that Jesus hasnt brought over to the new testament. Jesus new what to bring over man doesnt. But the old testament has to be obsolete to you in order for you to get the fullness of the new testament. 11John 1-9 is very specific if you dont abide(live) in the new testament you dont have the real God. There IS a veil over the old testament that remains to THIS day.
If Jesus were in the old testament this verse could only be meant for God and the angels.
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Col 2:13-14
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
(NKJ)
Acts 15:24-29
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law'-- to whom we gave no such commandment--
25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
(NKJ)
Slogan/motto:
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
Reputation:
February 23rd, 2011, 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr
Is it possiable my friend that Israel is a "Spiritual" nation that God holds close to his heart? Could it be his true church that followes his every wish and commandment?
Something to ponder over.
Peace
Bs'd
"The Christian church which follows his every wish and commandment"??
The Christians threw Gods laws overboard and replaced it with paganism and idolatry.
Which Christian follows Gods laws? Not a single one.
They believe Gods laws have been abolished.
They follow now extra-Biblical paganism, like Christmass, Sunday, trinity, etc etc.
Something to ponder about.
Eliyahu light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.
"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2
The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53 -
February 21st, 2011, 02:06 PM
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