[Lazy afternoon]

So the obvious question is ---- where in the NT are we told to edify ourselves? In 1 Cor 14 we are told to edify the body and elsewhere to glorify God. Do you understand that by edifying yourself you are glorifying yourself? This is why the teaching of a personal prayer language is pure deception. It is never interpreted and has made people accept a teaching that is contradictory to the Holy Word of God because it is self aggrandizement .... pride goeth before destruction.

It depends on the company you hang around with.

I just wonder whether you sing songs to the Lord which edify you , using words given you by some song writer.

That would be hypocritical of you , now wouldn't it.

LA.

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by Nick M

You get this from my posting scripture that says

So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.



Praying in a tongue like in Acts 2 when somebody understands it is edifying. Speaking into empty air is not.

What passage is this and what weak translation puts languages instead of tongues?! (bias)

In I Cor. 14, there is a distinction between public and private tongues. Watch for the phrase 'but in the church'...the public expression must be interpreted for corporate edification, but the private expression is speaking to God, not men, and is for self-edification (mind is unfruitful, does not need to be interpreted). Paul encourages something that you discourage. You grieve/quench the Spirit and I will yield to Him and obey. Your proof texting is off the mark, so buzz off (those who have the experience seem to understand it better than those who have a wrong view).

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by ThePresbyteers

Those that are under the influence of the Kundilini event also speaks in tongues. That also goes with Qi in China and Ki in Japan, Prana in India and animated energy in Christianity. Speaking in tongues might not be what we think.

The counterfeit does not disprove the genuine. There is no exegetical basis for cessationism and Paul did NOT have a negative view like you guys do (he taught about the use and misuse of the gifts, not their supposed cessation, a modern philosophy to rob the church of a blessing, a lie of the enemy).

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by red cardinal

The Holy Spirit is not tongues. Jesus was did not mention tongues. It was in regard to SALVATION which is the indwelt Holy Spirit immediate upon belief of Jesus Christ as Savior.

The Lukan accounts actually point to the charismatic activity of the Spirit in the OT, life of Christ, and early church. Paul later talked about the Spirit and regeneration, but Luke/Acts is about the vocational gifting for mission, not salvation (Acts 1:8 promise of Christ fulfilled with giving/receiving of the Spirit evidenced by the initial, physical evidence of tongues, post-conversion Acts 2:4).

http://www.amazon.com/Charismatic-Th.../dp/0913573116 (look inside for contents)

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by red cardinal

But that is not Biblical tongues, Gill.

It is as the Spirit gave utterance, not because you want it, pray for it, control it at will. The 3 accounts of tongues in the NT were all something that was given AGAINST the will. It was not thought of, believed for, understood, prayed for, had faith for ... NADA. It was given unexpectedly as the Spirit wills.

Tongues today does not fall into that category. YOU control tongues, not the Holy Spirit. You can turn them on and off like a faucet. That is NOT the Holy Spirit.

We speak as the Spirit enables (Acts 2:4). God does not flap our gums our speak through us while we are passive. Just as we can start and stop praying in English, so we can start and stop praying in the Spirit (I Cor. 14 shows it is under our control and can be misused; Paul is saying to stop be disruptive in your gift; there is no hint that we are passive puppets; what is true is that we cannot initiate or manufacture the experience). You obviously don't have the experience since you don't know what you are talking about (from experience and Scripture).

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by red cardinal

Exactly!!!!! And they are IDENTICAL in sound and syllables to the tongues that people say is from the Holy Spirit. And I might add ... those tongues in paganism have been around LONGER than the tongues of today, so it's not paganism that is imitating. Which makes no sense anyway. If tongues today is really from the Holy Spirit, then pagans WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO IMITATE IT .......

This is simply not true. There have been missionaries or ancient language experts here someone speak in tongues praising God in a North American church service (the person did not learn the language). Anecdotes about hearing someone exalt Satan, etc. lack credibility or the person was not a Christian but a demonized person in the service. Some people also do things in the flesh and do not have the real thing (but this is not an argument against the genuine or Paul's teaching). We cannot put experience or lack of experience above the Word. What does Scripture teach? It does NOT teach your view.

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by red cardinal

There are only 3 examples of people speaking in tongues in the NT. How many examples of people that have gotten saved in the NT where tongues is NOT given? The day of Pentecost for example. 3,000 were saved and baptized and not a single one got tongues. It's just not there.

Acts 2:4 duh...

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by red cardinal

That is not what 1 Cor 12 states. It says, as the Spirit wills. It is not because someone had faith to receive. Belief in Jesus Christ is the sum total of faith. God does not limit His grace because of unbelief.



Seriously???? Trophimus was taught by the greatest apostle, who had no problem healing as God had given him the power, and you think he got sick to take a rest because he was fighting the fight of faith????? So exactly how does one "fight the fight of faith" when they are sick in bed??????

I Cor. 12 is talking about public tongues with interpretation. Out of the hundreds of millions of believers today with the Pentecostal experience, only a few exercise the public gift with interpretation (context of I Cor. 12). Acts and I Cor. 14 talks more about the personal gift intended for all, post-Pentecost, evidenced by ongoing tongues without interpretation (devotional vs church edification).

[Ask Mr. Religion]

If we look to Hebrews, we see clearly gifts and miracles bore witness to Christ. Christ's own signs, including the authenticating resurrection, bore witness to the fact that He was the Christ.

In Acts, which starts by telling the reader that the book is about the Acts of Christ who is sending the Holy Spirit, we find the Word growing, which is about the real actor in the book, the Holy Spirit. empowering the message of the Apostles. If we are examining their message closely, it was always pointing to Christ's work. Note that in each and every instance therein, whenever there was a sign, we don't find the Apostles waxing eloquent about the particular wonder or gift. Instead we find them using these events to launch into a declaration of Christ's work, Christ's authority, and calls to repentance.

No sign or gift is ever discussed outside the direct proclamation of the Good News. Any so-called sign or gift outside of this context and end is an idolatrous pattern that seeks to worship effects of the Creator versus the Creator. The message from Hebrews is undeniable in that Christ was attested to by these signs and wonders. The opening of Hebrews 2 teaches clearly that Christ is the grand finale of the history of redemption, once and for all. The wonders and signs were a real part of this "once and for all" testimony of redemption accomplished.

It is egregious error to assume that something that was so clearly associated with an accomplished redemption to require repetition, as if to assume some sort of "redemption applied" as do the Pentecostals or others. That which has been done for us is unique and distinctly different from what has been done to and in us.

From a recent printing in a church bulletin:

A brief look at why the miraculous gifts given the early church are not given today. Please also note, these gifts were people, who performed certain tasks.

The greatest and most important gift was the Apostles (Eph 4:11). Those in the apostolate had to have 3 qualifications: 1) eye-witness of the resurrected Christ (Acts 1:21, 22; 10:39–41); 2) directly appointed by Christ (Mk 3:14; Lk 6:13; Acts 1:2); and 3) miraculous signs confirming their apostleship (Acts 2:43; 4:33; 5:12; 2 Cor 12:12). When these men died this foremost spiritual gift to the early church no longer existed, even though the fruit they bore remains.

The gift second in importance was the prophets (Eph 4:11; 1 Cor 12:28). Exactly as with the prophetic office in the OT their prophetic utterances were directly inspired of God and infallible (without error of any sort). When recorded their words were part of the canon of Scripture. The last recorded NT prophecy was the Book of Revelation: “Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy...” (1:3). If the prophetic office existed today then the canon of NT Scripture would still be open, and the Bible unfinished. All churches agree the NT canon is closed.

The house of God is built “upon the foundation of the apostles and [NT] prophets” (Eph 2:20; 3:5), and the foundation is already laid, and not still being built. The prophetic office is closed, as is the apostolate. So we see two spiritual gifts now ceased. Those who call themselves NT “prophets” nowadays are thus false, and all must agree they fail to meet the Deut 18:20–22 standard, and thus are condemned by the word of God!

The gift of tongues-speakers – using distinct foreign languages – as a revelatory gift equal to prophecy when interpreted (1 Cor 14:5), that is, bringing an inspired and infallible word directly from God, is, on the same basis as prophecy, ceased. With the completion of the Scriptures the revelation-gifts were no longer needed, the written word of God to His people sufficient that “The man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Tim 3:17)

AMR

[john w]

Originally Posted by godrulz

The counterfeit does not disprove the genuine. There is no exegetical basis for cessationism and Paul did NOT have a negative view like you guys do (he taught about the use and misuse of the gifts, not their supposed cessation, a modern philosophy to rob the church of a blessing, a lie of the enemy).

Paul also took a vow of purification and shaved his head per Acts 21:24-27, 24:18, and raised the dead per Acts 20:9-12, and went to the synagogue to preach Christ: Acts 13:5,14; 4:1;15:21;17:10,17; 18:4,19; 19:8

How are you doing on that, con man?

Watch the spam cliche "response."

[WandererInFog]

Originally Posted by godrulz

This is simply not true. There have been missionaries or ancient language experts here someone speak in tongues praising God in a North American church service (the person did not learn the language). Anecdotes about hearing someone exalt Satan, etc. lack credibility or the person was not a Christian but a demonized person in the service. Some people also do things in the flesh and do not have the real thing (but this is not an argument against the genuine or Paul's teaching). We cannot put experience or lack of experience above the Word. What does Scripture teach? It does NOT teach your view.

Red Cardinal never said anything about anyone saying "exalt Satan" or anything else for that matter. The pagans speaking in tongues, just like the Pentecostals, aren't generally saying anything at all. They're just making random noises. They're the same noises because they're using the same basic techniques to work themselves into that state and utilizing the same portion of the brain.

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by john w

Paul also took a vow of purification and shaved his head per Acts 21:24-27, 24:18, and raised the dead per Acts 20:9-12, and went to the synagogue to preach Christ: Acts 13:5,14; 4:1;15:21;17:10,17; 18:4,19; 19:8

How are you doing on that, con man?

Watch the spam cliche "response."

These contexts are interpreted in context and are not an issue, certainly not an argument against spiritual gifts.

AMR: the closing of the canon is an assumptive argument, not an exegetical one. These gifts are not just signs for apostles, another wrong assumption, but are given for the Church Age.

If the charismatic Christ and early church needed the fulness of the Spirit, how much more do all generations of believers? The Spirit was given with with evidence of gifts for the good of the church and there is no evidence of Him leaving or rescinding these things, except waxing/waning due to unbelief and bad teaching. The Pentecostal dynamic in this century shows that God is fulfilling His Word despite the egg-heads who deny it and resort to the arm of the flesh vs might of the Spirit instead.

[jerzy]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Your initial post makes no sense to me.

I do not know what your point or your points are.

The scriptures do not speak of "possessing the Holy Ghost"

You need a lot of instruction in this field.

oatmeal

Oatmeal

You need to read what people say here and respond accordingly.

Gill says that she had and still has the Holy Spirit.

You need to speak to her.

You are egocentric.

You didn’t read that I don’t take instruction from man especially one like you who forgets the truth but remembers pagan fables instead.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Originally Posted by godrulz

AMR: the closing of the canon is an assumptive argument, not an exegetical one.

Best to not go there brother as you are already in deep enough hot water with the whole glossolalia issue. Now you only expose yourself to all manner of examination by assuming God has more special revelation for us to come that is yet to be added to Scripture.

AMR

[jerzy]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Mock me as the unbelievers did in Acts 2:13

Your lack of understanding of this wonderful ability does not diminish God's goodness in enabling believers to do so.

Oatmeal

Which God you worship in your mumbles?

You strip the Father the only true God of His kingdom, power, glory and allocate it all to your idol Satan.

So you must be worshipping your idol in your mumbles.

What a great combination.

Did you pay to learn the trick?

Is your mumble coming from here?

Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Who asked for mumble jumble here?