The United States isn't secular as Europeans understand the term. The implication is that Americans recognize and value the words of our founders:
If you want secularism, go to France.
The "endowed by their creator" part is not required. It also makes the implication that human rights only is if theism is presumed.
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Wake us up if they play our song and we might just sing along
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The "endowed by their creator" part is not required. It also makes the implication that human rights only is if theism is presumed.
I'm sure Thomas Jefferson was remiss in not inviting you to help him draft the US Declaration of Independence. But, yes, it does presume theism (or perhaps minimally deism). And this is not simply a rhetorical flourish, it is a key pillar of the American concept of rights and is essential to the argument he constructs.
Slogan/motto:
Never be haughty to the humble; never be humble to the haughty.
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August 12th, 2011, 06:40 PM
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The "endowed by their creator" part is not required. It also makes the implication that human rights only is if theism is presumed.
The founders presumed theism, so they put it in the Declaration of Independence. They also wanted the government completely out of the god business, and so prohibited any government involvement in religion, and did not put any recognition of God in the Constitution, which unlike the Declaration, is the law.
We've slipped a little from time to time, just as other parts of the Constitution have been ignored from time to time. Those that violated essential rights in a significant way were appealed and thrown out.
The de minimus violations were often allowed to stand. Separation of church and state was the intent of the founders, as Jefferson said. If you want a more detailed explanation of why that was their desire, you should read Madison's Against Religious Assessments.
It's on there thanks to the red scare. Whatever. As long as it continues to be accepted...
The red scare? Expound please. I know you aren't implying it is something new.
Of course saying the country believes in a creator and trusts him is not establishing a religion. When Islam calls you to prayer 5 times a day, that is an established religion. Or see England back in the day.
If you want to know the Father's reasoning, that is available too. Some didn't want the Baptists and Presbertyrians saying their denomination is the one.
That's roughly the same reason I gave you to distinguish the Navy Cross from Christian symbols. It's lost it's religious significance.
The concept that's used to justify this stuff is called 'ceremonial deism'. I don't think the argument actually works in this case. The motto was set in 1956. I don't buy that the reason was historical, and I kinda resent the suggestion that patriotism requires the acceptance of religious notions.
If that makes me too serious, I guess that's what I'm doomed to be.
Slogan/motto:
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
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August 12th, 2011, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler
I think most people are pretty sick and tired of playing that game by now. There is always a pea under the bed somewhere.
It was important enough to someone to pass in the first place, and important enough for you to defend it. So I think the notion that this is a pea under the bed is quite hypocritical coming from you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler
I'm going to just come out of the closet as a Dominionist and be done with it.
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It's only the fairy tales they believe.
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August 12th, 2011, 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler
I'm sure Thomas Jefferson was remiss in not inviting you to help him draft the US Declaration of Independence. But, yes, it does presume theism (or perhaps minimally deism). And this is not simply a rhetorical flourish, it is a key pillar of the American concept of rights and is essential to the argument he constructs.
It's worth noting that whereas the Declaration of Independence specifies some nebulous Creator as the source of rights, the Bill of Rights does not. Nor does any part of the Constitution. And since the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, I think it carries a bit more weight than what was, at most, a rhetorical statement of principles.
Eternal life is an easy promise to make and a hard one to fulfill.
...[J]ust as other parts of the Constitution have been ignored..."
"Separation of church and state" is not in The Constitution. It was written in a letter from Thomas Jefferson (Jefferson was not a founding father. He was out of the country when the Constitution was signed)..." Full text: Freedom Ribbon
Slogan/motto:
"Beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. " ~Yoda
If there is a separation of Church and State? Isn't this unconstitutional? What about the atheists who don't believe in God?
I think they should sue.
Oh, they have sued.
The Constitution is not a prohibitory document.
Ah, and how about the Wiccans who believe in several other gods ("In Gods We Trust"?) ("In Goddesses We Trust"?) Yep, they should sue
The other day, someone said that Separation of Church and State is unconstitutional. Really must look into that. So many controversies, so little time LOL
It's worth noting that whereas the Declaration of Independence specifies some nebulous Creator as the source of rights, the Bill of Rights does not. Nor does any part of the Constitution. And since the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, I think it carries a bit more weight than what was, at most, a rhetorical statement of principles.
Duly noted. But the Constitution is a legal and not a philosophical document as the DoI is. The DoI explains the Constitution.
"In God we trust" on coins, on the other hand, is more comparable to the prayers that are offered at the start of congressional sessions. It's an expression of theists but not a directive to atheists.
Slogan/motto:
Never be haughty to the humble; never be humble to the haughty.
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August 13th, 2011, 10:33 AM
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"Separation of church and state" is not in The Constitution.
Well, let's take a look...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech
Surprise. Madison, who did most of the writing for the Bill of Rights, acknowledged that it was based on Jefferson's Virginia Statutes, and went even farther than Jefferson in asserting a separation of Church and state. His "Against Religious Assessments" makes it very clear. Read it and learn.
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Jefferson was not a founding father.
They're right. You are a moron.
The Founding Fathers of the United States of America were political leaders and statesmen who participated in the American Revolution by signing the United States Declaration of Independence, taking part in the American Revolutionary War, establishing the United States Constitution, or by some other key contribution...American historian Richard B. Morris, in his 1973 book Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries, identified the following seven figures as the key Founding Fathers: John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundin..._United_States
But then you also edit the Bible to your liking, so it's not surprising you'd try to alter American History as well.
That's a good point. "God" is not a church or a religion, nor does it refer to one. It is an idea. A very BIG idea, that may refer to something or someone, or everything (or not, as the atheist would have it); but just an idea. Americans are free to have ideas, inside government or not, and whether someone disagrees or not.
Ah, and how about the Wiccans who believe in several other gods ("In Gods We Trust"?) ("In Goddesses We Trust"?) Yep, they should sue
I'm sure that the sentiment around here would be substantially different if we had a piece of currency that said "In Gods We Trust."
"There was so much handwriting on the wall that even the wall fell down"
"In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only sure weapon against bad ideas is better ideas. The source of better ideas is wisdom. The surest path to wisdom is a liberal education." – Alfred Whitney, Essays on Education
Don't you know
That it ain't a crime
If all the squares
And the junkmen
Think you're out of line
What's new? 
~ J Vernon McGee Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13.
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