[PureX]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

We have now split the hair twice

The words mean what they mean.

[WizardofOz]

Originally Posted by PureX

The words mean what they mean.

Then we'll split again.

Agnostic - a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable

Unknowable = the knowledge needed to rationalize God may not exist.

[flintstoned]

Originally Posted by Ted L Glines

Excellent point, and I guess it depends on who you ask. Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Some atheists have doubted the very nature of the term "atheism". In his book Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris wrote:

In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.

Perhaps "atheist" is nothing more than a label to define something which never required a definition.

I agree with most of what you said, and would like to add:

The word "atheism" is not supposed to describe anything about a person other than the fact that they have no belief in god. That's the point. Do you think it is absurd to identify yourself as a "non-smoker" when you are in the company of other smokers who want to know if you smoke? I don't normally go around telling people I'm a non-smoker (or an atheist for that matter) unless I am in a situation where that piece of information is relevant. I would say that in a religion forum, that identifying as to whether or not you have a belief in god, would be very relevant.

I am defined by a combination of things that I am and things that I am not. I am a 40 year old woman, a daughter, a grand-daughter, a non-smoker, independent on the political scale, unmarried (though I am engaged), childless, a runner, etc, etc. You cannot know what any of my actual beliefs are just by knowing that I am an atheist (and no, I do not hold the belief that gods do not in fact exist). Just as being a non-smoker, unmarried and childless, helps describe me, by what I am NOT, so does atheism. It is just a descriptor that describes one aspect of myself regarding the question about god. Is it "absurd" to describe myself as a non-smoker? After all, why should I have to label myself by something I do not do?

[PureX]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

Then we'll split again.

Agnostic - a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable

Unknowable = the knowledge needed to rationalize God may not exist.

That would be a confused agnostic that you're describing. A non-confused agnostic only knows that he doesn't know if God exists or not. He doesn't claim to know that he can't know something, because that would be an irrational claim. How can one claim to know what they can and can't know without knowing it?

[noguru]

Originally Posted by steven84

Whenever atheists are asked to explain why they are atheists they tend to describe themselves more like an agnostic. The street apologist points this out making a case for what really is atheism.

TO the self-proclaimed Atheists- based off of what is pointed out in the article it would seem that only some of you really are atheists and the rest of you are merely agnostic but don't want admit that.

After reading this article, what really distinguishes you from being agnostic if you don't go all the way and man up to what it is to be an atheist?

When I was not a theist. I had a difficult time categorizing whether I was agnostic or atheist. That's because I did not know. I felt that since I had no direct evidence of a diety that the chances were very small that there was one. But I always reserved the possibility that I might be wrong about that. I cannot speak for all atheist/agnostics, but I can tell you how I thought when I was one.

[Bradley D]

"I had always believed in a power greater than myself. I had often pondered these things. I was not an atheist. Few people really are, for that means blind faith in the strange proposition that this universe originated in a cipher and aimlessly rushes nowhere" ("Bills Story" Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill Wilson, Co-Founder AA).

[noguru]

Originally Posted by Bradley D

"I had always believed in a power greater than myself. I had often pondered these things. I was not an atheist. Few people really are, for that means blind faith in the strange proposition that this universe originated in a cipher and aimlessly rushes nowhere" ("Bills Story" Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill Wilson, Co-Founder AA).

Are you in a 12 step program?

[PureX]

I'm one of those strange people who both believes in God and doesn't know if what I believe is true or not. For me it's not a contradiction, though. It's resolved by faith. I choose to believe, to trust in an idea, and my life is better because of it. I'm better because of it. That's my "proof". It's not scientific, it's just a personal truth. To be honest, it doesn't really even matter to me if I'm wrong. Faith is it's own reward.

[Bradley D]

Originally Posted by noguru

Are you in a 12 step program?

Yes I am a sober member of AA since Jan. 1, 1991.