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February 26th, 2012, 11:47 PM

Re: relationship with God or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
...

By every measure I can think of and that you have pointed to Ė the answer was yes.
Then you have a problem that can't be solved by analogy. You have to explain how you both trusted and doubted in a moment. You have to grapple with how you believed yourself to be in relation to God and now believe you have a better answer. That is, you should be able to answer how you can trust yourself to know anything at this point, relative to the question.

I hold you cannot trust and doubt any more than you can be faithful to your wife while sleeping with another woman. And if you can't trust and doubt and your life and apostasy speak to the latter, the former (as a profession) is reasonably in question.

Quote:
But regardless of your previous objection/rejection - I canít mentally escape the 1st century version of the Simone-like (scales falling from my eyes / acts 9:18*) realization that occurred at the end of my Christian experience.
See: question one. And using Acts isn't helpful given you weren't delivered from bondage by an external anything and cannot suggest you delivered yourself without running afoul, again, of the first question of note here.

Quote:
In describing my movement away from Christianity
Except there's no such animal. You either believe in and relate to or you don't. The rest is just how much tradition you hold onto and when you release it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
When the Gospel was preached in Athens and the Athenians were reasoned with, there was a relatively meager positive response...
I don't read the response as you do. Some sneered and some followed after. In any event, given neither of us would suggest that truth is a numbers game I don't see it as a point of importance. At one time it's likely most people believed the sun circled the earth.

Quote:
Your reasoning and logic seems to be failing with me like Paulís reasoning and logic mostly failed to convince many Athenians.
Given you previously stated you weren't interested in being converted why should I read that as a failing of my reasoning instead of an expression of your stated disposition and resistance?

Quote:
Does the fault lie mostly with Paul and you or me and the Athenians?
I met your expressed points in support of your apostasy with a rational, reasoned alternative. I did so to illustrate a point carried in my question about trust and love in relation to God. I know how you feel about it, which is what your analogies actually present, but I think you have a logical problem, a difficulty that you can't resolve without letting go of the notion that you possessed what you have to believe you possessed to, in part, justify your present state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Just to be clear - your bias doesn't cloud your judgment?
I don't believe that it does, but I remain open to inquiry and have always been willing to set out a reasoned course and case.

Quote:
My question to you is - how do you know that that answer is true?
Because throughout years of challenge here and else it has survived reasoned examination and is consistent in its parts--even as the foundation is inescapably a matter of faith. I don't believe your position (relating to the failure of your Christian faith) has that to say for it. I've set out why. Until you can resolve the apparent contradiction you have the problem I noted supra and prior.

Re: the challenge that isn't...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
You are right Ė pure objectivity is an impossibly high bar to clear but in this thread you have seen my best effort in the attempt.
There's no such animal as the impurely objective. So either a person can tell you what must satisfy or they can't. If they can't then the challenge "Demonstrate that God exists" is form without substance.

Quote:
1) OBJECTIVE REALITY Ė There is a near universal prevalence of religious faith in every human society
(remember, the exception does not disprove the rule Ė the exception confirms the rule)
Yes. We appear to be driven toward the notion on any number of levels.

Quote:
The golden rule is proven true by its near universality
It isn't universal. Prohibitions illustrate a form of empathy, but the Christian model is affirmative. It prompts man to act, to do for and to others what he would have done to and for himself. A very important distinction, your conflation and denial notwithstanding.

Secondly, universality is no proof of the truth of a thing, only its perception as truth. The sun doesn't circle the earth. The earth isn't flat. Slavery isn't a noble institution. And so on.

Quote:
the deity of jesus is a non-intuitive, not globally accepted teaching
Having already illustrated the lack of persuasiveness that should be attached to the intuitive, few things are globally accepted and that's little more than truth as perception, again. Your laundry list of Christian principles meets with the same problem.




   
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February 27th, 2012, 06:30 AM

I give up. I canít convince you that my position is sufficiently objective.

My question to you is, is your position as a Christian sufficiently objective?

I appreciate your humility and the lack of firm certainty in your answer below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Just to be clear - your bias doesn't cloud your judgment?
yes or no?
If your answer is no.
My question to you is - how do you know that that answer is true?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
I don't believe that it does, but I remain open to inquiry and have always been willing to set out a reasoned course and case.



   
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February 27th, 2012, 07:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
I give up. I canít convince you that my position is sufficiently objective.

My question to you is, is your position as a Christian sufficiently objective?

I appreciate your humility and the lack of firm certainty in your answer below.
You can if you resolve the problem I noted in my prior...and anyone (regarding absolutes) being rational has to admit the only certainty in life is uncertainty and even that's self defeating.



   
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February 27th, 2012, 07:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
the challenge "Demonstrate that God exists" is form without substance.
That was not the challenge I extended to you. My challenge although never clearly stated was more along the lines of "Demonstrate that the Creator of the Universe and the God of the Bible are one and the same".

I have yet to be convinced of that by anyone in this forum as a member for almost 6 years.



   
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February 27th, 2012, 11:00 AM

Christian or Non-Christian / Pick A Side

Originally Posted by Town Heretic
I Ö have always been willing to set out a reasoned course and case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
My challenge although never clearly stated was more along the lines of "Demonstrate that the Creator of the Universe and the God of the Bible are one and the same".

I have yet to be convinced of that by anyone in this forum as a member for almost 6 years.
ok....make your case.



   
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February 27th, 2012, 01:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Christian or Non-Christian / Pick A Side

Originally Posted by Town Heretic
I Ö have always been willing to set out a reasoned course and case.


ok....make your case.
your pearls of wisdom will be read by a few - the views so far of this thread - over 4000.



   
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February 27th, 2012, 02:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
That was not the challenge I extended to you. My challenge although never clearly stated was more along the lines of "Demonstrate that the Creator of the Universe and the God of the Bible are one and the same".

I have yet to be convinced of that by anyone in this forum as a member for almost 6 years.
Given your investment and unwillingness to address fundamental contradictions in the foundation of your chosen context it isn't surprising...and, again, the challenge of your OP was found in a number of declared insufficiencies that weren't necessarily or objectively so...as for this new wrinkle, the same sort of response as I'd make to the first and foundational challenge to faith is called for: what suffices, objectively?



   
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February 27th, 2012, 02:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
so...as for this new wrinkle, the same sort of response as I'd make to the first and foundational challenge to faith is called for: what suffices, objectively?
Now, we are going in circles.
I already answered your question before (over 148 posts ago) but seemingly you didnít like my answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Iím not asking you prove that God exist because I believe in the Creator of the Universe. I guess instead Iím asking you to prove that your God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (your biblegod) and the Creator of the Universe are one and the same. Because I do not believe that they are.
As to the answer to your question - what criteria, once met, would objectively settle the question?
My answer is the same as a Supreme Court Justiceís answer regarding Ė What is pornography? Iíll know it when I see it.
If that is not good enough for you then I can't help you any more than that.



   
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February 27th, 2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Now, we are going in circles.
I already answered your question before (over 148 posts ago) but seemingly you didnít like my answer.
It isn't about liking it...it simply isn't an objective standard. Which means any attempt is easy prey for the ever popular and equally subjective, "I'm unconvinced."




   
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February 27th, 2012, 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Christian or Non-Christian / Pick A Side

Originally Posted by Town Heretic
I … have always been willing to set out a reasoned course and case.

ok....make your case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
It isn't about liking it...it simply isn't an objective standard. Which means any attempt is easy prey for the ever popular and equally subjective, "I'm unconvinced."
the biblical standard is not to throw your pearls before swine
- not - do not throw your pearls before those without an
objective standard. according to your bible, your job is to scatter the gospel seed and it lands where it lands, sometimes good soil and sometimes not so good soil.

But I'm not going to plead with you to make your case. I doubt that it would be something I have not heard before.

It has been fun.




Last edited by bigbang123; February 29th, 2012 at 06:50 AM..
   
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February 27th, 2012, 11:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
the biblical standard is not to throw your pearls before swine
- not - do not throw your pearls before those without an
objective standard. according to your bible, your job is to scatter the gospel seed and it lands where it lands, sometimes good soil and sometimes not so good soil.

But I'm not going to plead with you to make your case. I doubt that it would be something I have heard before.

It has been fun.
Peculiar...you create a fairly specific OP and I enter on those points and provide a reasonable counter, during which I arrive at a couple of questions/problems inherent in your posits which you subsequently fail to address beyond telling me how you feel about things...now, late in the game you make a general call for a case without specifics and somehow it's my failing?

Answer how you doubt and trust in the same moment or how trust can ever lead you to doubt and apostasy...how you can accept your experience and reason one moment then reject it using the same faculties that led you into what you now profess as error the next...tackle those incongruities and we have the makings of a real conversation.

Then we can get into my witness if it still interests you.




   
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February 28th, 2012, 02:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
Answer how you doubt and trust in the same moment or how trust can ever lead you to doubt and apostasy...how you can accept your experience and reason one moment then reject it using the same faculties that led you into what you now profess as error the next...tackle those incongruities and we have the makings of a real conversation.
It is like you are a Mac and I am a PC, we are having a failure to communicate. I believe I have answered many of your questions many times over again.

the bible parables and symbolic language always perfectly on point
while my many analogies are always found wanting Ė says you, the disinterested objective observer.

Like I've said, it has been fun. And you have lead me to put more specfic words to my thoughts. Thanks.

-----------

as ideogenous_mover would say

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...eferrerid=6078



   
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February 28th, 2012, 06:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
how you can accept ...one moment then ... the next
That is a simplistic and inaccurate description of my deconversion. And I have supplied you with enough info for you to know better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
My deconversion story in a nutshell -

I was married to the faith when I was 16 (the church, in the bible, is called the bride of christ)

The marriage was annulled when I was 39

The grounds for annulment - fraud (on the part of the biographers of the groom)


no bitterness - just a reasonable natural explanation/option in the place of the biblical supernatural explanation/option.
the realization was arrived at after years of struggle.
and, a 16 year old is more gullible than a 39 year old.

Blah, blah, blah, Town Heretic is right,
blah, blah, blah, bb123 is right,
blah, blah, blah, Town Heretic is wrong,
blah, blah, blah, bb123 is wrong.
This merry-go-round is concluded, everyone
please be careful as you disembark.




Last edited by bigbang123; February 28th, 2012 at 06:57 AM..
   
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February 28th, 2012, 07:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
It is like you are a Mac and I am a PC, we are having a failure to communicate. I believe I have answered many of your questions many times over again.

the bible parables and symbolic language always perfectly on point
while my many analogies are always found wanting Ė says you, the disinterested objective observer.

Like I've said, it has been fun. And you have lead me to put more specfic words to my thoughts. Thanks.

-----------

as ideogenous_mover would say

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...eferrerid=6078
Where I'd say you can no more present a reasonable explanation for how anyone who trusts then doubts the object in question absent some act/failure on the part of that object than you can set out the objectively satisfactory criteria establishing God's existence when met...that is to say, there's no rationally defensible posit allowing for it.

As to my comment on any faith, it stands as a rational necessity. There is unquestionably a moment when anyone fashioning their apostasy can no longer declare the reality of that former faith...I applied that in a general and philosophical sense in my prior and not as some particular attempt to deliniate your own moment (though in principal it would work as with any other).

Again, you have a rational problem here that can't be reduced to a conflict between us and varying perspective. It's a failure upon which your larger part here rests. I've set that out a few times now...there's no place for our discourse to go unless and until you either reconcile the logic problem or abandon that portion of your prior and ongoing claim.




   
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February 29th, 2012, 05:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
you can no more present a reasonable explanation for how anyone who trusts then doubts the object in question absent some act/failure on the part of that object than you can set out the objectively satisfactory criteria establishing God's existence when met...that is to say, there's no rationally defensible posit allowing for it.
Once again, you are mistaken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
As I now see things, I mistakenly thought I entered into an actual and active relationship with Christ.
It is like if someone hijacked the facebook page of Mayor Bloomberg and I thought I was having an actual back and forth substantive conversation with the real Mayor of New York City and then found out that that was actually not the case. My past "relationship" with Jesus is no more complicated than that.
As I said before, I don't doubt God's existence. I doubt the belief which equates the Creator of the Universe with the biblegod. Never meeting him in person, I still believe that Major Bloomberg is real. I, however, no longer trust the fake Bloomberg Facebook page (which you call the bible).

Your standard argument against atheist does not work against me, since I am not an atheist.

-------------

This thought just occurred to me - are you a fideist?




Last edited by bigbang123; February 29th, 2012 at 07:08 AM..
   
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