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I'd take the sword, and try to cut off one of the terrorist's heads before they shot me dead. They're going to kill us both, anyway, but maybe I can make them pay a price for trying to play their vicious little games.
hmmm, a lot of people would probably do that. But how does that square with the of the Christian philosophies that martyrdom is impressive? Like I said that's how the religion spread. Yours seems to be a very post-modern take on that.
that's another thing the op doesn't take into account: that your death at the hands of the terrorists might impress them and convert them.
Traditio may have created the impression that you don't have to be sorry for what you did in order to be absolved through confession. Actually, yes, you do in order to make a "good" confession. Traditio is arguing that one may not be sufficiently contrite over having fornicated to be forgiven without receiving the sacrament. I think the odds of having sufficient contrition of having committed the murder while confessing later are even worse, however, especially if you would do it again if you were in the same situation again, because you're trying to game the system rather than thinking in terms of right and wrong. And that's without even taking into consideration how likely you are to be safely delivered to a priest at some later time given the absurdity of the scenario to begin with.
Yeah, I specifically tried to avoid giving this impression. You can't sin with the intention of just confessing it later. You actually have to renounce what you've done and resolve never to do it again. The reason why the Sacrament is a "safer" bet isn't because it's a get out of jail free card. The requirements are lower. What's required in the scenario I've given, if you hand yourself over to die, is nothing short of perfect contrition. For the Sacrament, it's sufficient merely to have attrition/imperfect contrition.
"If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins 'you shall receive a never fading crown of glory.' [2] Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in Hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practise black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and save your soul, if----and mark well what I say----if you say the Holy Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon for your sins" (St. Louis Marie de Montfort, Secret of the Rosary, Red Rose).
Slogan/motto:
Honor is a dead word to the blindly loyal.
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March 2nd, 2012, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by organiccornflake
No dilemma here if your a Protestant
Among Protestants, the debate may get pretty heated about whether or not you should feel any contrition over having fornicated in the first place (beyond regretting whatever temporal inconvenience came about as a result.) One side of the issue would contend pretty forcefully that if you think you have to repent and ask God for forgiveness, then you haven't yet really accepted Christ as your savior.
"So as not to exchange one evil for another, this poor land must be saved from the scourge of friend and foe alike." - Friedrich Schiller
Posting ability officially rated "pretty good" by Delmar.
Slogan/motto:
“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name” S.B.
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March 2nd, 2012, 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy2006
Catholicism would say that the hypothetical fornicator who ran into Trad's bad luck scenario would be more likely to get into Heaven than the hypothetical fornicator who did not run into such a scenario?
The scenario was repentant/confessed murderer vs. unrepentant/unconfessed fornicator.
Which is more likely to get to heaven and why....
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. ~John Bertram Phillips
Slogan/motto:
“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name” S.B.
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March 2nd, 2012, 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
Traditio may have created the impression that you don't have to be sorry for what you did in order to be absolved through confession.
If the hypothetical fornicator executed the soldier, he is not doing so because he wants to. He would be sorry even before doing it. He is being manipulated (forced under threat of death) into doing it.
If it were not for terrorists threatening to kill him if he didn't he would never consider such action. He's a willful fornicator not a willful murderer.
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. ~John Bertram Phillips
Among Protestants, the debate may get pretty heated about whether or not you should feel any contrition over having fornicated in the first place (beyond regretting whatever temporal inconvenience came about as a result.) One side of the issue would contend pretty forcefully that if you think you have to repent and ask God for forgiveness, then you haven't yet really accepted Christ as your savior.
No, Protestants would feel just as bad for fornicating as a catholic would. Its arguable that Catholics haven't really accepted Jesus, because in order to ask Jesus for forgiveness they have to go through some guy wearing a fancy robe.
Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if it turns out they are right and get mad at you, they are a mile away and barefoot.
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
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March 3rd, 2012, 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardofOz
The scenario was repentant/confessed murderer vs. unrepentant/unconfessed fornicator.
Which is more likely to get to heaven and why....
So you are saying that Catholicism would say that an unrepentant fornicator would be more likely to go to Heaven than a repentant murderer? I disagree, why do you believe that?
But your simplification really doesn't hit the OP scenario at all. I think most all Christians would say that a repentant murderer would be more likely to go to Heaven than an unrepentant fornicator. That simplification misses all of the crucial elements of the OP, such as the fact that the "repentant murderer" is really no such thing, since his so-called "repentance" was a cold calculation in his very decision to murder. You can never do something bad and make it good by intending to repent at a later date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardofOz
If the hypothetical fornicator executed the soldier, he is not doing so because he wants to. He would be sorry even before doing it. He is being manipulated (forced under threat of death) into doing it.
If it were not for terrorists threatening to kill him if he didn't he would never consider such action. He's a willful fornicator not a willful murderer.
He is a willful murderer. He is not being forced, he is being encouraged. If you think that encouragement/concupiscence negates moral agency, then you simply do not believe in morality in any actual sense. No immoral act is generated from purely evil intentions.
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
He is a willful murderer. He is not being forced, he is being encouraged. If you think that encouragement/concupiscence negates moral agency, then you simply do not believe in morality in any actual sense. No immoral act is generated from purely evil intentions.
How can you say he's not being forced when he's given a 'kill or be killed' scenario?
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
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March 3rd, 2012, 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quip
How can you say he's not being forced when he's given a 'kill or be killed' scenario?
It's not merely "kill or be killed," but rather "kill or be killed and he will die anyway."
He is not being forced because he has another and better option: die.
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
It's not merely "kill or be killed," but rather "kill or be killed and he will die anyway."
He is not being forced because he has another and better option: die.
Well, that's generally not viewed as the "better" option; it's only so much rhetoric/bravado, counter to 99.99 percent of us (per human nature) who would hold on to any form of hope no matter how slim. Would you not pray for God to save you from such a scenario?
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
Reputation:
March 3rd, 2012, 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quip
Well, that's generally not viewed as the "better" option; it's only so much rhetoric/bravado, counter to 99.99 percent of us (per human nature) who would hold on to any form of hope no matter how slim.
The only hope lies in the option I gave.
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Would you not pray for God to save you from such a choice?f
Sure What does that have to do with whether or not to murder the dude?
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
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