[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by g_n_o_s_i_s

Then it wouldn't be by nature would it?

Often times people use Paul's letter/book to the Romans to say that God has revealed Himself through creation and conscience.

In Romans 1 He talks about creation and things that are not by nature, but against nature as people rebell against their creator.

In the verse we are talking about, Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law. These would be things like love, justice, mercy, faithfulness, not murdering or commiting adultery.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

A Gentile could be seen as moral or immoral, without even knowing about God's Law for the nation of Israel.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

[meshak]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

I didn't see "the law of the conscience" in the verse after first idenitifying that it is there.

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Our conscience tells us to be obedient to Jesus. It all leads to be obedience to Jesus.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by meshak

Our conscience tells us to be obedient to Jesus. It all leads to be obedience to Jesus.

Paul does talk about obedience in Romans.

He talks about Jesus' obedience...

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

He also talks about our obedience.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

And there is a whole lot of content to the book of Romans that is important that we haven't even touched on. Obedience is irrelevant without salvation in Christ.

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Often times people use Paul's letter/book to the Romans to say that God has revealed Himself through creation and conscience.

In Romans 1 He talks about creation and things that are not by nature, but against nature as people rebell against their creator.

In the verse we are talking about, Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law. These would be things like love, justice, mercy, faithfulness, not murdering or commiting adultery.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

A Gentile could be seen as moral or immoral, without even knowing about God's Law for the nation of Israel.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Is that the law you where looking for when you asked if there was a higher law?

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by g_n_o_s_i_s

Is that the law you where looking for when you asked if there was a higher law?

I think it is, along with "the law of Christ", often interpreted as a higher law... or that we as Christians are now above the law (do not sin even if we do the things once thought to be sinful under the law). I'm not convinced, so that is where my hesitation comes from.

[Untellectual]

You should know where some of what I was saying comes from:

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

[Untellectual]

And also, in regard to "surpassing" the law, at least the scribes and the pharisees:

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[glorydaz]

Originally Posted by g_n_o_s_i_s

How would a Gentile do by nature all the 613 commands specified in the Torah? How would one by nature know not to work on the first day of the passover? Or how to not inflict punishment on Shabbat?

The Torah is the Ten Commandments. The Law of Moses, with it's hundreds of ordinances, was given specifically to Israel because of the disobedience to God's Law.

The Gentiles would know they should worship the God they see all around them in Creation. They would know they shouldn't kill. They would know they shouldn't take what doesn't belong to them. The Law written in their heart is eternal. It has been from the beginning, and was later written down on tablets of stone by the finger of God. The Law the Gentiles followed was the knowledge of right and wrong as God has made clear to them from the start.

[glorydaz]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

You should know where some of what I was saying comes from:

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Jews had added to and taken away from God's Law written in stone. They changed His Law until it was no longer recognizable to the Messiah when He came. They practiced the Law in letter and not spirit...totally removing mercy, faith, and judgment (discernment)...it became legalism without love. Jesus came to restore what had been removed, and to remove what had been added.

[glorydaz]

This is not referring to the Law of Moses, but to the Law of God. His commandments are sure....they stand fast forever.

Psalm 111:7-9 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.

[Colossians]

glorydaz,

Jesus came to restore what had been removed, and to remove what had been added.
Actually He didn't.

He came to be crucified by the law for walking in faith which is not of the law.

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

Originally Posted by glorydaz

The Torah is the Ten Commandments.

Not in this universe. The Torah is the five books of Moses.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by glorydaz

The Jews had added to and taken away from God's Law written in stone. They changed His Law until it was no longer recognizable to the Messiah when He came. They practiced the Law in letter and not spirit...totally removing mercy, faith, and judgment (discernment)...it became legalism without love. Jesus came to restore what had been removed, and to remove what had been added.

I think the issue Jesus addressed was hypocrisy.

Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Colossians

He came to be crucified by the law

Jesus was crucified by the Jews and the Romans.

[Letsargue]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

What did Jesus do?

Is there a law higher than the Law of Moses, which came from God?

I don't know that "a higher law" is spoken of in the Bible. At least not in those words. There is something called, "the law of Christ", so that might enter into the discussion.

Some believe Jesus did not obey the Law of Moses at all. Whether these people believe it is because Jesus is God or not, it raises questions about if the Law, related by the prophet Moses, really came from God. And, it may raise the question for some of if Jesus was really perfect.

If the Law of Moses is carnal, does that mean anyone who keeps it is then carnal? That doesn't make sense.

Aside: Was Jesus the "perfect" sacrifice if He did not obey the Law of Moses which was considered to be from God?

Shabbat Shalom.

I don’t know where you people came from, but, wherever it was, there was no knowledge of God there!!!! --- The Law and Moses has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHRISTIAN, TODAY!!! – The Greater / the MUCH GREATER LAW! IS THE “COMMANDMENT” TO “OBEY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS”!!!! – “OBEY MY WORD” SAITH CHRIST!!!!

Paul – 031912